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New directions in race relations, 1960s.
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- speakerGood evening friends.
- speakerTonight's program dedicated to a discussion of new directions
- speakerin race relations has as our guests two
- speakergentlemen who have devoted the better part of their days
- speakerand nights in the past years to the whole problem of
- speakerracial justice.
- speakerI'm glad to welcome to our forum Dr.
- speakerGayraud Wilmore, the Executive Director of the Commission on Religion
- speakerand Race of the United Presbyterian Church in the USA,
- speakerand the Reverend Metz Rollins,
- speakerthe Associate Director of the Commission.
- speakerWelcome gentlemen. I know that only a few days
- speakerago the winter meeting of your commission took place
- speakerin New York City.
- speakerAnd from all reports and the conversations that I've had
- speakerwith both of you, a number of important thoughts,
- speakerdirections, and ideas, as well as projects,
- speakeremanated from these deliberations.
- speakerThis was a two day meeting wasn't it, Dr. Wilmore?
- speakerYes it was, Rabbi Bernards.
- speakerIt's our winter meeting. We'll probably have two more meetings of the commission this
- speakeryear. Now this is an instrumentality,
- speakerthis Commission on Religion and Race,
- speakeris an instrumentality of the church on a local
- speakeror national level, Reverend Rollins?
- speakerWell our commission is a national one.
- speakerBut as a result of the work of the commission we have been developing
- speakerover the last 18 months local commissions at the
- speakerPresbytery level and at the Synod level.
- speakerYes, the Presbytery and the Synod, this is comparable to what other groupings
- speakerwithin church denominations? Well,
- speakerthe Presbytery would be similar to a diocese
- speakerin a Episcopalian or at a conference among Methodists
- speakeror district or what have you among other roots.
- speakerI see.
- speakerDr. Wilmore, what would you say was one of the principal concerns
- speakerwhich was the subject of much discussion at this meeting?
- speakerWell Rabbi we're always concerned in these commission meetings
- speakerwith the way our program is taking in the denomination.
- speakerWe are delighted with the kind of support we're getting from many churchmen across
- speakerthe country. But we're also very conscious
- speakerand were conscious at this particular meeting of the small
- speakerminority of Presbyterians who are bitterly resisting
- speakerany attempt on the part of the church to move away from an exhortation
- speakerapproach to race relations to an approach which uses
- speakerthe corporate power of the church to try to bring about certain
- speakerchanges in community
- speakerand church life. By exhortation, Dr. Wilmore,
- speakeryou refer to what? Well I'm referring prim-,
- speakerI'm using that word broadly to refer to the preaching
- speakerfrom the pulpit, the educational materials that churches
- speakerconstantly use to enlighten their membership,
- speakerto other means than the presentation of one's body so to speak
- speakeron a demonstration line or a picket line
- speakeror to the use of the economic
- speakerand social power of the church and political
- speakerand social action to achieve certain desired ends in the field of human relations.
- speakerI see. Now this resistance on the part of the laity
- speakerand possibly a small number of the ministry to this activist
- speakerapproach, has that resulted in some dislocation
- speakeror defections from membership
- speakeror drop in revenue?
- speakerYes, I would say it has.
- speakerAs we move across the country, both Rev. Rollins and myself,
- speakerwe've talked with ministers over the past few months who have lost
- speakersome small amounts of money, some large amounts.
- speakerI talked to a minister in Cleveland recently who lost forty thousand dollars,
- speakerboth on a building program and in his regular church budget.
- speakerA very substantial - He polled the congregation to find out what was the reason for this
- speakerdecrease in their annual giving.
- speakerAnd they told him quite frankly it was the position of the General Assembly
- speakerand the Commission on Religion and Race.
- speakerNow he himself had been active in demonstrations
- speakerand in protest movements in Cleveland
- speakerbut the congregation did not point to him.
- speakerI don't know whether this was subterfuge or not.
- speakerThey said his denominations' position about which we were concerned.
- speakerSo there is a loss in some revenue
- speakerand there is a loss in some membership in the United Presbyterian Church
- speakerand I think in all the Protestant denominations are actively involved in this struggle.
- speakerAnd I think that it cuts across even the Protestant community that is it cuts across
- speakerthe Roman Catholic and the Jewish community, too,
- speakerwhere you find the same kind of resistance.
- speakerBut that consensus within the laity
- speakerand the ministry, would you say, is in the other direction?
- speakerI think the consensus is in the other direction as it is I believe in the country at large.
- speakerAnd the feeling is that religion can best implement
- speakerand structure itself in achieving racial justice in an activist
- speakerdirection? An activist direction,
- speakerin the direction of making concrete its concern
- speakerand not being satisfied simply in dealing
- speakerwith the attitudes of people
- speakerbut becoming involved in dealing
- speakerwith the concrete problems of injustice
- speakerand bigotry as we find them in the local community.
- speakerThis means employment, it means housing, it means schools.
- speakerIt means public accommodations
- speakerand voting laws. These are concrete questions.
- speakerIt's not simply a matter of instructing a man that he ought to love his brother in some
- speakerkind of a vague and ambiguous way
- speakerbut that he ought to vote properly for racial justice in his community.
- speakerHe ought to be willing to let a Negro who is qualified to buy a house move
- speakerinto his community. He ought to be willing to work beside him at the workbench
- speakeron the job. And so these are the kinds of concrete things
- speakerthat the church is saying and trying to affect by corporate power around
- speakerus. Reverend Rollins,
- speakerI know a very important concern was the
- speakerquestion of the ministry to the northern cities
- speakerand I know we're all,
- speakerwe'd be interested in a description of this new approach.
- speakerWell this certainly is a very interesting project.
- speakerThis represents a partly shift in emphasis of our
- speakerwork, of feeling keenly that there is gonna be
- speakera continued crisis in race relations in the northern
- speakerand western cities of our country.
- speakerAnd the United Presbyterian Church's Commission which is committed to an interdenominational
- speakerinterfaith approach has responded to
- speakerthe appeal of the National Council of Churches Commission on Religion
- speakerand Race and we are moving in this direction in what's called the northern cities
- speakervisitation program. Now what cities specifically are the
- speakerimmediate targets so to speak of this interdenominational
- speakerprogram? Well at this point there are two cities that are prime targets
- speakeror pilot programs or will represent a pilot programs:
- speakerDetroit and Cleveland.
- speakerBoth of these cities have had initial visits from a team made up of,
- speakerof our staff and staff on the National
- speakerCouncil of Churches Commission.
- speakerWe have met locally with representatives of the Council of Churches
- speakerfrom the Catholic Diocese
- speakerand from representatives of the Jewish community.
- speakerYes.
- speakerIt's all posited on the idea of not trying to project
- speakera program on the local community
- speakerbut to speak to the community
- speakerand to those who are concerned to try to develop their own program that
- speakerwill further the idea of racial justice.
- speakerDr. Wilmore, what would you say would be some of the immediate goals in this program?
- speakerIn Cleveland I think very frankly the immediate goal is to change
- speakerthe school board. And as you know Cleveland had a real crisis last year
- speakeron the de facto school segregation problem.
- speakerThere were riots in the streets in Cleveland.
- speakerThere is great concern on the part of the Negro community that
- speakerthe school board have a shift in its
- speakermembership so that people will be elected who are more amenable
- speakerto the goals
- speakerand demands of the Negro community for better education
- speakerand integrated education. So you would attempt to act as a catalyst
- speakerto unite the religious force? That's the word we're using: catalyst.
- speakerYes. Now Reverend Rollins I think you are very
- speakerfamiliar with the Detroit picture.
- speakerWell Detroit, the thing would be housing.
- speakerHere in Detroit, you still have the concentration of the majority
- speakerof the Negro community in the inner city
- speakeror in the slum ghetto.
- speakerAnd surrounding metropolitan Detroit
- speakeror the all white suburbs
- speakerwhich thus far have not been cracked in any substantial way.
- speakerAnd housing is one of the prime concerns there.
- speakerAnd so one of the positive things that can be already reported is that
- speakerwe discovered in Detroit that there were housing committees
- speakerin some of these suburban communities.
- speakerThey had representatives at this initial meeting
- speakerand we look forward to movement in this direction
- speakerwith the concentrated effort on housing
- speakerbut I would say almost as close
- speakeror as important would be again the matter of schools'
- speakerde facto segregation in the city of Detroit.
- speakerAnd also police services too.
- speakerThe question has been raised in Detroit over
- speakerand over again about the treatment of minority persons by the
- speakerpolice of the Detroit. Let may say a word if I may - Yes,
- speakerDr. Wilmore - about the strategy of these northern city projects.
- speakerRight. I mentioned that in Cleveland the concern was for political action.
- speakerThe strategy is to develop
- speakerschools for classes
- speakerand political education in the Negro ghetto that would be staffed
- speakerby college students and people from suburbia who are interested
- speakerand concerned about conditions within the city.
- speakerThis means that it's a voter registration
- speakerand political education project primarily.
- speakerI see. Using volunteer clergymen,
- speakerusing college students home from the summer,
- speakerusing liberal suburban white people who are interested
- speakerand concerned about the situation in the ghetto.
- speakerI see. And trying to bring these two communities together,
- speakerthat is the ghetto
- speakerand the suburban community, to carry on this kind of educational
- speakerprogram in the direction of political action.
- speakerYou mentioned the voter registration and that immediately brought to mind the headline
- speakerimportance of Selma, Alabama.
- speakerWas this entire area
- speakerand problem concern discussed,
- speakerReverend Rollins? Yes, Selma was very much in the minds of our commissioners
- speakerat the recent meeting. For one thing one of our commissioners
- speakeris a lawyer and he's from Birmingham,
- speakerAlabama and he's very much involved in the Selma case.
- speakerIn fact, he wasn't he able to come to the meeting because of his own
- speakerprofessional involvement.
- speakerOne of the things we did do was to send a wire both to the president
- speakerand to the attorney general appealing for new
- speakerlaws in voter registration
- speakerand going so far as to call for the development of federal
- speakerregistrars if need be as one of the means to ensure
- speakervoter registration for large numbers of Negroes who deliberately denied
- speakerthis at this point. Dr.
- speakerWilmore?
- speakerYes, the the action in Selma,
- speakerI think, is very significant because
- speakerwe have been very much concerned to do
- speakersomething that would be helpful in the south
- speakerand we've worked in Mississippi as you know.
- speakerNow we're in Alabama.
- speakerWe have sent Presbyterian ministers through PIC
- speakerand through some of the work of this commission into Selma to demonstrate
- speakerwith Dr. Martin Luther King.
- speakerSo we feel very close to the situation in Selma.
- speakerYes. Now
- speakerwith regard to the problem of fighting poverty,
- speakerthe anti-poverty program,
- speakerI'm led to believe that some important decisions in new directions in your
- speakerrace relations work were adopted.
- speakerDr. Wilmore? Yes, Rabbi Bernards, I think that the poverty program
- speakerprovides all of the civil rights organizations
- speakerwith a new context into which the whole concern for racial justice
- speakermay be set. As a matter of fact CORE
- speakerand the NAACP,
- speakerall of the major civil rights organizations are looking to the poverty program
- speakeras a very important aspect,
- speakerat least not so much an aspect,
- speakerbut the total context of their work.
- speakerYes. So that we see these things developing,
- speakera poverty program developing in communities where there's
- speakeran extremely important racial crisis going on.
- speakerReverend Rollins? Well in addition to that,
- speakerthis brings a matter of the fact that our church is concerned
- speakerfor more than simply Negro rights.
- speakerThe poverty program extends to our concern for
- speakerour Spanish speaking constituency in the southwest
- speakerand also concern for the Indian population
- speakerin the Dakotas and in New Mexico
- speakerand Arizona.
- speakerReverend Rollins, is there a sizable membership in
- speakerthe body of the United Presbyterian Church from the Indian community?
- speakerWell historically there has been a long mission of our church to the Indian
- speakerpeople of Navajos, Nez Perce,
- speakerthe Dakotas. It's not a very large group
- speakerbut it has, they play a significant role in the life of our church.
- speakerI see. Dr. Wilmore, with regard to your team ministry
- speakerto southern cities, I know that you've been engaged in this for quite some
- speakertime. What new overtones
- speakerand nuances have come into this program?
- speakerWell I think the new overtone that has come out of
- speakerthe southern city team ministry is that this is not a demonstration
- speakerproject, but a project of reconciliation primarily I'd say.
- speakerThey go into the homes and the offices of ministers
- speakerand laymen, in the city of Birmingham for example,
- speakerand try to talk with them on a personal basis about their witness in the city.
- speakerHas anything been accomplished, let us say in Birmingham,
- speakeralong this line? As a result of the visitation to Birmingham which lasted for a week,
- speakera group has been organized in Birmingham,
- speakeran interracial group that has had about three meetings now
- speakerand I think has grown about 100 percent.
- speakerIs that so? In terms of attendance. Do they meet publicly
- speakerand openly or is it still very, very informal
- speakerand off the record? No they are meeting publicly
- speakerand openly. I don't know that they've giving themselves a name yet
- speakerbut they are developing a program.
- speakerWell you know how, you and I know how only a very short time ago
- speakerthe very idea of an interracial group meeting publicly were
- speakerin a city like Birmingham was considered unthinkable.
- speakerSo this is really a positive accomplishment.
- speakerI think it is.
- speakerNow the matter of supplying
- speakergoods and services to the church
- speakerand to church affiliated institutions is something which all of us
- speakerin the synagogue and the church have been very deeply concerned.
- speakerIt was highlighted very much as all of you know by the National Conference of Religion
- speakerand Race, et cetera. Now what specific action programs
- speakerhave been undertaken by the Commission?
- speakerReverend Rollins? Well one of the things that our commission did in its
- speakerearly years of life was to direct our call
- speakerupon our boards and agencies.
- speakerThat is the program boards and agencies of our church like the Board of Christian Education,
- speakerthe National Missions and the Commission on Ecumenical Missions,
- speakerto set up their own policies.
- speakerAnd as a result of their own studies they have come up
- speakerwith policy statements that have said that from here on out,
- speakerthat in dealing in say in a building program that
- speakerthere will be included a fair employment clause into
- speakerany contracts. That in the hiring program
- speakerof their own agencies that they will examine them to see that they
- speakerare in keeping with the principle of fair employment.
- speakerIn other words this includes supervisory help,
- speakersecretarial help, and the ministry.
- speakerThe whole range of economic involvement of the church is hopefully
- speakercovered in this type of program. I see. Dr.
- speakerWilmore?
- speakerWe are having, you'd be interested to know,
- speakera meeting of treasurers
- speakerand investment committee chairmen of our major boards in a
- speakerfew weeks. Is that so? And at that time we're going to investigate the possibility
- speakerof using some of the Presbyterian money of which there are millions
- speakerand millions of dollars invested in industrial stocks
- speakerand bonds to be invested now in interracial housing.
- speakerThere are a couple of organizations. One the National Committee on Tithing
- speakerand Investments, which are urging nonprofit
- speakerinstitutions to use some of this money to build integrated housing.
- speakerI see, and how would that work? In other words the church bodies
- speakerwould invest their funds in a capital structure,
- speakerwould this be aided or subsidized by federal
- speakeror state funds as well?
- speakerNo, this would be a program that would be tied in
- speakerwith a construction project,
- speakerwith a realtor or someone who is going to build a large development.
- speakerYes. And if he's willing to have an open occupancy policy here,
- speakerhe may be able to get mortgage money
- speakeror help in the building from these institutions.
- speakerYou know one of the thorny problems
- speakerand I don't propose that you have the answer to it as nobody else does,
- speakeris in this question of open occupancy whether there would be thought through some
- speakerkind of relationship of racial occupancy
- speakeror whether it would be a complete open
- speakerregistration of people who want to come into these homes.
- speakerHave you in your talks
- speakerwith people involved in this problem gotten any impressions of what the
- speakersound approach is? Well this is a very controversial question of whether you ought to have racial
- speakerquotas. I think many of the most of the responsible people
- speakerworking in this field are reluctant to adopt a quota.
- speakerI feel that the movement of population can be controlled in other ways.
- speakerFor instance by stemming panic from a community.
- speakerAvoiding blockbusting tactics.
- speakerYes. I think they want, they want to get away from the idea
- speakerof using quotas as a way of ensuring balanced
- speakerintegration. Yes. May not be possible in some situations.
- speakerWe're going to have some very interesting demonstrations of the possiblility in the future.
- speakerYes. How about the whole matter,
- speakerReverend Rollins, of developing on a personal,
- speakerhuman relations basis greater contact
- speakerand greater rapport between the White
- speakerand the Negro Christian community?
- speakerWell this continues to be a primary concern because as we make all these advances
- speakerin integration and in efforts for racial justice there's still a continuing
- speakerneed for people to meet each other on a face to face basis.
- speakerThere's been some interesting experiments on local levels
- speakerfor instance in our own church in cities like Pittsburgh
- speakerand St. Louis, there have been what we've called,
- speakerfor want of a better phrase,
- speakermembership exchange where white Christians who are living in
- speakersuburbs and have membership in suburban churches deliberately transfer their
- speakermembership back into the city,
- speakerinto what is predominately all Negro congregation
- speakerand then like matter Negro Christians have been encouraged to make
- speakerthis kind of transfer.
- speakerThis has lasted sometimes for a six months period
- speakeror a year period. Then there's been in Cleveland for instance
- speakerthrough Office of Religion and Race development of a program called
- speakerdialogue where there's been about 70 groups
- speakerof people meeting in each other's homes
- speakerand talking about some of the issues on a face to face basis.
- speakerIn all this is the assumption that people still need
- speakerto converse and to see each other
- speakerand come to know each other as simply as people
- speakerand as human beings. Yes.
- speakerSo also interesting in this connection to notice an increasing interest
- speakerin trying to deal
- speakerwith de facto segregation in church schools.
- speakerYes. Recently been consultation about the kinds of
- speakerdevices such as busing and other devices that may be used to break the segregated
- speakerpattern of church school. Has there been any success in this area?
- speakerWell it's just beginning and I think the greatest interest has been shown
- speakerby some of our churchmen the New York area.
- speakerI don't think we have an example of it yet but it's in the negotiation
- speakerand discussion stage. Yes. Now gentlemen,
- speakerboth you, Dr. Wilmore, and you, Reverend Rollins,
- speakeras executive director and associate executive director,
- speakeryou have an associate friend of ours,
- speakerDr. Robert Stone. You have a very small staff
- speakerand you have a gigantic responsibility.
- speakerNot only for your church but for the whole religious community as you're concerned about everybody.
- speakerYou don't personally,
- speakeryou aren't personally capable of handling all of these problems.
- speakerHow do you allocate the responsibility?
- speakerWell I think Reverand Rollins pointed out a little earlier that one of the main purposes of
- speakerthis commission is to create commissions on a regional basis
- speakerand on a local basis.
- speakerHow does that work? Well we have,
- speakerfor example, been able to establish 17 full
- speakeror half time staff positions across the country in the last 17 months.
- speakerIn key cities? In key cities.
- speakerAnd these men are working with Commissions on Religion
- speakerand Race patterned after the National Commission to carry on the work in their
- speakercommunity. Yes, it's very similar to the kind of setup we have in the Anti Defamation League where the principle
- speakerconcerns are funneled through our regional offices.
- speakerYes, Rev. Rollins? Well also we have a lot of paid staff who have
- speakerother responsibilities like presbytery executives,
- speakertheo-directors of Christian education who are located in sensitive positions,
- speakerand one of the things that has been developed is what's been called adjunct staff
- speakerand these people are available to be co-opted
- speakeror called in to do specific
- speakeror special jobs in a given areas.
- speakerThis council meets periodically to keep them abreast of what's going
- speakeron and this is extra staff.
- speakerYes. As a matter of interest there are other denominations within the Protestant
- speakercommunity who have similar setups of commissions on religion
- speakerand race. They have different names. I think about seven actually.
- speakerAbout seven denominations and then you mentioned the National Council of Churches.
- speakerNow that Commission on Religion and Race serves what purpose?
- speakerIt serves as an overall coordinating Protestant body.
- speakerIt has about eight or nine staff persons.
- speakerIt has probably the largest budget of all of the church related
- speakeragencies working in this field and it attempts to coordinate the activities
- speakerof the other denominational religion
- speakerand race committees or commissions
- speakerand present a united Protestant front in this field.
- speakerI see. We've had the pleasure through our resources
- speakerand help of working together with your local commissions on religion
- speakerand race and certain special concerns of housing
- speakerand employment opportunity etc..
- speakerDoes this go all along the line in terms of interdenominational linkages
- speakerwith the national bodies?
- speakerReverend Rollins? Well there's a certain amount of denominational program,
- speakeryou know that you have to have justified the money
- speakerand time spent. But hopefully there is more
- speakerand more of an interfaith approach.
- speakerWe didn't mention I think but one of the examples of where there's real cooperation
- speakeris the National Council's Delta Ministry project in
- speakerMississippi. Would you deal-
- speakerWell that's even larger than our country because this also involves the World
- speakerCouncil of Churches where money from overseas
- speakerwill be coming into the United States for the first time.
- speakerAlso fraternal workers from other countries will be working on the American race relations problem in
- speakerMississippi. Yes. Is that so? People from Africa
- speakerand Asia and other parts of the world.
- speakerI see. Now the one thing that comes
- speakerfor us from our discussion is this concern for the problem of race
- speakerrelations and racial injustice in the northern communities.
- speakerWhy this emphasis?
- speakerWell you recall that last year between July 18th
- speakerand Labor Day there were about nine major riots
- speakerin the cities of the North
- speakerand Midwest. Yes.
- speakerThis is certainly a symptom of the sickness
- speakerof the large metropolitan area in our country where you have great
- speakerconcentrations of Negroes.
- speakerThere is no doubt that we're going to have some difficult in summer of 1965.
- speakerI think the Civil Rights Act has made some difference.
- speakerThe poverty program will help.
- speakerBut there are still a lot of devils bedeviling the northern
- speakercommunity in the field of race relations.
- speakerWe're turning to the north because we feel that we have a most important job to
- speakerdo there. Of course our churches are primarily located in these northern
- speakersuburbs so we feel that we have a very distinctive responsibility to deal
- speakerwith the problem of segregation and housing
- speakerand job opportunities and education in the great urban
- speakercenters of the north. And you feel on the basis of preliminary probings
- speakerand initial contacts that
- speakerwith the united religious forces a lot can be done.
- speakerThis is the only way it's going to be done, Rabbi.
- speakerI think that we have acknowledged long sense that this is not a Presbyterian
- speakerproblem. Yes. This is a problem of all of us
- speakerand it's got to be done on interdenominational interfaith basis.
- speakerEvery one of these northern cities we're trying to develop an interfaith approach.
- speakerYes. We're beginning of course
- speakerwith our own constituency and with other Protestants.
- speakerYes. But it will definitely expand into an interfaith approach to these problems.
- speakerAnd the future you think harbors a great deal of
- speakerhope for possibilities for improvement of race relations
- speakerand the correction of racial injustice all along the line.
- speakerDon't you think so, Reverend Rollins?
- speakerWell I'm basically optimistic. I'd have to go along
- speakerwith that. Yes.
- speakerDr. Wilmore? I feel that this problem is going to be
- speakerwith us for a long time to come but I am personally delighted
- speakerwith the way the churches have responded in the last three years since the March
- speakeron Washington particularly
- speakerand I think we're going to see improvement across the board
- speakerand the whole field of race relations within the churches in this country.
- speakerI see. Thank you very much.
- speakerWe've had the pleasure tonight of listening to a discussion on new directions
- speakerin race relations
- speakerand have had as our guests two people who have
- speakerplaying a prominent role in the struggle for racial justice.
- speakerDr. Gayraud Wilmore, executive director of the Commission on Religion
- speakerand Race of the United Presbyterian Church in the USA
- speakerand his associate,
- speakerReverend Metz Rollins,
- speakerthe associate director of the commission.
- speakerListen to us two weeks from tonight for another program of our ADL forum.
- speakerThis is your moderator, Dr. Soloman S.
- speakerBernards. Goodnight.