New directions in race relations, 1960s.

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Good evening friends.
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Tonight's program dedicated to a discussion of new directions
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in race relations has as our guests two
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gentlemen who have devoted the better part of their days
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and nights in the past years to the whole problem of
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racial justice.
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I'm glad to welcome to our forum Dr.
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Gayraud Wilmore, the Executive Director of the Commission on Religion
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and Race of the United Presbyterian Church in the USA,
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and the Reverend Metz Rollins,
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the Associate Director of the Commission.
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Welcome gentlemen. I know that only a few days
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ago the winter meeting of your commission took place
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in New York City.
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And from all reports and the conversations that I've had
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with both of you, a number of important thoughts,
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directions, and ideas, as well as projects,
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emanated from these deliberations.
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This was a two day meeting wasn't it, Dr. Wilmore?
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Yes it was, Rabbi Bernards.
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It's our winter meeting. We'll probably have two more meetings of the commission this
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year. Now this is an instrumentality,
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this Commission on Religion and Race,
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is an instrumentality of the church on a local
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or national level, Reverend Rollins?
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Well our commission is a national one.
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But as a result of the work of the commission we have been developing
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over the last 18 months local commissions at the
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Presbytery level and at the Synod level.
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Yes, the Presbytery and the Synod, this is comparable to what other groupings
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within church denominations? Well,
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the Presbytery would be similar to a diocese
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in a Episcopalian or at a conference among Methodists
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or district or what have you among other roots.
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I see.
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Dr. Wilmore, what would you say was one of the principal concerns
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which was the subject of much discussion at this meeting?
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Well Rabbi we're always concerned in these commission meetings
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with the way our program is taking in the denomination.
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We are delighted with the kind of support we're getting from many churchmen across
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the country. But we're also very conscious
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and were conscious at this particular meeting of the small
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minority of Presbyterians who are bitterly resisting
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any attempt on the part of the church to move away from an exhortation
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approach to race relations to an approach which uses
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the corporate power of the church to try to bring about certain
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changes in community
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and church life. By exhortation, Dr. Wilmore,
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you refer to what? Well I'm referring prim-,
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I'm using that word broadly to refer to the preaching
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from the pulpit, the educational materials that churches
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constantly use to enlighten their membership,
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to other means than the presentation of one's body so to speak
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on a demonstration line or a picket line
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or to the use of the economic
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and social power of the church and political
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and social action to achieve certain desired ends in the field of human relations.
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I see. Now this resistance on the part of the laity
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and possibly a small number of the ministry to this activist
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approach, has that resulted in some dislocation
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or defections from membership
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or drop in revenue?
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Yes, I would say it has.
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As we move across the country, both Rev. Rollins and myself,
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we've talked with ministers over the past few months who have lost
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some small amounts of money, some large amounts.
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I talked to a minister in Cleveland recently who lost forty thousand dollars,
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both on a building program and in his regular church budget.
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A very substantial - He polled the congregation to find out what was the reason for this
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decrease in their annual giving.
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And they told him quite frankly it was the position of the General Assembly
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and the Commission on Religion and Race.
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Now he himself had been active in demonstrations
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and in protest movements in Cleveland
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but the congregation did not point to him.
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I don't know whether this was subterfuge or not.
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They said his denominations' position about which we were concerned.
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So there is a loss in some revenue
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and there is a loss in some membership in the United Presbyterian Church
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and I think in all the Protestant denominations are actively involved in this struggle.
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And I think that it cuts across even the Protestant community that is it cuts across
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the Roman Catholic and the Jewish community, too,
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where you find the same kind of resistance.
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But that consensus within the laity
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and the ministry, would you say, is in the other direction?
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I think the consensus is in the other direction as it is I believe in the country at large.
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And the feeling is that religion can best implement
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and structure itself in achieving racial justice in an activist
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direction? An activist direction,
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in the direction of making concrete its concern
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and not being satisfied simply in dealing
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with the attitudes of people
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but becoming involved in dealing
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with the concrete problems of injustice
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and bigotry as we find them in the local community.
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This means employment, it means housing, it means schools.
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It means public accommodations
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and voting laws. These are concrete questions.
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It's not simply a matter of instructing a man that he ought to love his brother in some
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kind of a vague and ambiguous way
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but that he ought to vote properly for racial justice in his community.
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He ought to be willing to let a Negro who is qualified to buy a house move
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into his community. He ought to be willing to work beside him at the workbench
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on the job. And so these are the kinds of concrete things
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that the church is saying and trying to affect by corporate power around
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us. Reverend Rollins,
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I know a very important concern was the
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question of the ministry to the northern cities
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and I know we're all,
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we'd be interested in a description of this new approach.
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Well this certainly is a very interesting project.
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This represents a partly shift in emphasis of our
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work, of feeling keenly that there is gonna be
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a continued crisis in race relations in the northern
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and western cities of our country.
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And the United Presbyterian Church's Commission which is committed to an interdenominational
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interfaith approach has responded to
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the appeal of the National Council of Churches Commission on Religion
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and Race and we are moving in this direction in what's called the northern cities
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visitation program. Now what cities specifically are the
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immediate targets so to speak of this interdenominational
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program? Well at this point there are two cities that are prime targets
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or pilot programs or will represent a pilot programs:
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Detroit and Cleveland.
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Both of these cities have had initial visits from a team made up of,
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of our staff and staff on the National
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Council of Churches Commission.
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We have met locally with representatives of the Council of Churches
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from the Catholic Diocese
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and from representatives of the Jewish community.
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Yes.
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It's all posited on the idea of not trying to project
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a program on the local community
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but to speak to the community
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and to those who are concerned to try to develop their own program that
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will further the idea of racial justice.
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Dr. Wilmore, what would you say would be some of the immediate goals in this program?
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In Cleveland I think very frankly the immediate goal is to change
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the school board. And as you know Cleveland had a real crisis last year
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on the de facto school segregation problem.
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There were riots in the streets in Cleveland.
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There is great concern on the part of the Negro community that
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the school board have a shift in its
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membership so that people will be elected who are more amenable
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to the goals
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and demands of the Negro community for better education
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and integrated education. So you would attempt to act as a catalyst
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to unite the religious force? That's the word we're using: catalyst.
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Yes. Now Reverend Rollins I think you are very
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familiar with the Detroit picture.
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Well Detroit, the thing would be housing.
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Here in Detroit, you still have the concentration of the majority
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of the Negro community in the inner city
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or in the slum ghetto.
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And surrounding metropolitan Detroit
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or the all white suburbs
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which thus far have not been cracked in any substantial way.
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And housing is one of the prime concerns there.
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And so one of the positive things that can be already reported is that
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we discovered in Detroit that there were housing committees
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in some of these suburban communities.
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They had representatives at this initial meeting
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and we look forward to movement in this direction
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with the concentrated effort on housing
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but I would say almost as close
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or as important would be again the matter of schools'
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de facto segregation in the city of Detroit.
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And also police services too.
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The question has been raised in Detroit over
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and over again about the treatment of minority persons by the
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police of the Detroit. Let may say a word if I may - Yes,
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Dr. Wilmore - about the strategy of these northern city projects.
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Right. I mentioned that in Cleveland the concern was for political action.
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The strategy is to develop
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schools for classes
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and political education in the Negro ghetto that would be staffed
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by college students and people from suburbia who are interested
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and concerned about conditions within the city.
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This means that it's a voter registration
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and political education project primarily.
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I see. Using volunteer clergymen,
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using college students home from the summer,
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using liberal suburban white people who are interested
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and concerned about the situation in the ghetto.
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I see. And trying to bring these two communities together,
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that is the ghetto
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and the suburban community, to carry on this kind of educational
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program in the direction of political action.
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You mentioned the voter registration and that immediately brought to mind the headline
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importance of Selma, Alabama.
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Was this entire area
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and problem concern discussed,
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Reverend Rollins? Yes, Selma was very much in the minds of our commissioners
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at the recent meeting. For one thing one of our commissioners
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is a lawyer and he's from Birmingham,
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Alabama and he's very much involved in the Selma case.
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In fact, he wasn't he able to come to the meeting because of his own
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professional involvement.
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One of the things we did do was to send a wire both to the president
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and to the attorney general appealing for new
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laws in voter registration
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and going so far as to call for the development of federal
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registrars if need be as one of the means to ensure
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voter registration for large numbers of Negroes who deliberately denied
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this at this point. Dr.
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Wilmore?
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Yes, the the action in Selma,
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I think, is very significant because
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we have been very much concerned to do
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something that would be helpful in the south
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and we've worked in Mississippi as you know.
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Now we're in Alabama.
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We have sent Presbyterian ministers through PIC
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and through some of the work of this commission into Selma to demonstrate
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with Dr. Martin Luther King.
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So we feel very close to the situation in Selma.
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Yes. Now
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with regard to the problem of fighting poverty,
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the anti-poverty program,
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I'm led to believe that some important decisions in new directions in your
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race relations work were adopted.
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Dr. Wilmore? Yes, Rabbi Bernards, I think that the poverty program
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provides all of the civil rights organizations
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with a new context into which the whole concern for racial justice
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may be set. As a matter of fact CORE
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and the NAACP,
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all of the major civil rights organizations are looking to the poverty program
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as a very important aspect,
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at least not so much an aspect,
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but the total context of their work.
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Yes. So that we see these things developing,
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a poverty program developing in communities where there's
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an extremely important racial crisis going on.
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Reverend Rollins? Well in addition to that,
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this brings a matter of the fact that our church is concerned
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for more than simply Negro rights.
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The poverty program extends to our concern for
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our Spanish speaking constituency in the southwest
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and also concern for the Indian population
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in the Dakotas and in New Mexico
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and Arizona.
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Reverend Rollins, is there a sizable membership in
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the body of the United Presbyterian Church from the Indian community?
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Well historically there has been a long mission of our church to the Indian
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people of Navajos, Nez Perce,
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the Dakotas. It's not a very large group
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but it has, they play a significant role in the life of our church.
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I see. Dr. Wilmore, with regard to your team ministry
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to southern cities, I know that you've been engaged in this for quite some
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time. What new overtones
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and nuances have come into this program?
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Well I think the new overtone that has come out of
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the southern city team ministry is that this is not a demonstration
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project, but a project of reconciliation primarily I'd say.
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They go into the homes and the offices of ministers
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and laymen, in the city of Birmingham for example,
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and try to talk with them on a personal basis about their witness in the city.
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Has anything been accomplished, let us say in Birmingham,
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along this line? As a result of the visitation to Birmingham which lasted for a week,
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a group has been organized in Birmingham,
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an interracial group that has had about three meetings now
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and I think has grown about 100 percent.
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Is that so? In terms of attendance. Do they meet publicly
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and openly or is it still very, very informal
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and off the record? No they are meeting publicly
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and openly. I don't know that they've giving themselves a name yet
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but they are developing a program.
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Well you know how, you and I know how only a very short time ago
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the very idea of an interracial group meeting publicly were
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in a city like Birmingham was considered unthinkable.
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So this is really a positive accomplishment.
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I think it is.
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Now the matter of supplying
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goods and services to the church
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and to church affiliated institutions is something which all of us
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in the synagogue and the church have been very deeply concerned.
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It was highlighted very much as all of you know by the National Conference of Religion
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and Race, et cetera. Now what specific action programs
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have been undertaken by the Commission?
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Reverend Rollins? Well one of the things that our commission did in its
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early years of life was to direct our call
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upon our boards and agencies.
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That is the program boards and agencies of our church like the Board of Christian Education,
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the National Missions and the Commission on Ecumenical Missions,
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to set up their own policies.
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And as a result of their own studies they have come up
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with policy statements that have said that from here on out,
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that in dealing in say in a building program that
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there will be included a fair employment clause into
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any contracts. That in the hiring program
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of their own agencies that they will examine them to see that they
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are in keeping with the principle of fair employment.
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In other words this includes supervisory help,
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secretarial help, and the ministry.
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The whole range of economic involvement of the church is hopefully
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covered in this type of program. I see. Dr.
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Wilmore?
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We are having, you'd be interested to know,
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a meeting of treasurers
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and investment committee chairmen of our major boards in a
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few weeks. Is that so? And at that time we're going to investigate the possibility
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of using some of the Presbyterian money of which there are millions
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and millions of dollars invested in industrial stocks
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and bonds to be invested now in interracial housing.
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There are a couple of organizations. One the National Committee on Tithing
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and Investments, which are urging nonprofit
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institutions to use some of this money to build integrated housing.
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I see, and how would that work? In other words the church bodies
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would invest their funds in a capital structure,
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would this be aided or subsidized by federal
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or state funds as well?
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No, this would be a program that would be tied in
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with a construction project,
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with a realtor or someone who is going to build a large development.
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Yes. And if he's willing to have an open occupancy policy here,
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he may be able to get mortgage money
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or help in the building from these institutions.
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You know one of the thorny problems
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and I don't propose that you have the answer to it as nobody else does,
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is in this question of open occupancy whether there would be thought through some
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kind of relationship of racial occupancy
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or whether it would be a complete open
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registration of people who want to come into these homes.
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Have you in your talks
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with people involved in this problem gotten any impressions of what the
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sound approach is? Well this is a very controversial question of whether you ought to have racial
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quotas. I think many of the most of the responsible people
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working in this field are reluctant to adopt a quota.
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I feel that the movement of population can be controlled in other ways.
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For instance by stemming panic from a community.
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Avoiding blockbusting tactics.
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Yes. I think they want, they want to get away from the idea
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of using quotas as a way of ensuring balanced
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integration. Yes. May not be possible in some situations.
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We're going to have some very interesting demonstrations of the possiblility in the future.
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Yes. How about the whole matter,
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Reverend Rollins, of developing on a personal,
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human relations basis greater contact
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and greater rapport between the White
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and the Negro Christian community?
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Well this continues to be a primary concern because as we make all these advances
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in integration and in efforts for racial justice there's still a continuing
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need for people to meet each other on a face to face basis.
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There's been some interesting experiments on local levels
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for instance in our own church in cities like Pittsburgh
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and St. Louis, there have been what we've called,
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for want of a better phrase,
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membership exchange where white Christians who are living in
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suburbs and have membership in suburban churches deliberately transfer their
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membership back into the city,
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into what is predominately all Negro congregation
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and then like matter Negro Christians have been encouraged to make
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this kind of transfer.
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This has lasted sometimes for a six months period
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or a year period. Then there's been in Cleveland for instance
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through Office of Religion and Race development of a program called
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dialogue where there's been about 70 groups
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of people meeting in each other's homes
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and talking about some of the issues on a face to face basis.
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In all this is the assumption that people still need
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to converse and to see each other
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and come to know each other as simply as people
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and as human beings. Yes.
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So also interesting in this connection to notice an increasing interest
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in trying to deal
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with de facto segregation in church schools.
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Yes. Recently been consultation about the kinds of
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devices such as busing and other devices that may be used to break the segregated
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pattern of church school. Has there been any success in this area?
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Well it's just beginning and I think the greatest interest has been shown
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by some of our churchmen the New York area.
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I don't think we have an example of it yet but it's in the negotiation
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and discussion stage. Yes. Now gentlemen,
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both you, Dr. Wilmore, and you, Reverend Rollins,
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as executive director and associate executive director,
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you have an associate friend of ours,
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Dr. Robert Stone. You have a very small staff
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and you have a gigantic responsibility.
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Not only for your church but for the whole religious community as you're concerned about everybody.
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You don't personally,
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you aren't personally capable of handling all of these problems.
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How do you allocate the responsibility?
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Well I think Reverand Rollins pointed out a little earlier that one of the main purposes of
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this commission is to create commissions on a regional basis
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and on a local basis.
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How does that work? Well we have,
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for example, been able to establish 17 full
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or half time staff positions across the country in the last 17 months.
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In key cities? In key cities.
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And these men are working with Commissions on Religion
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and Race patterned after the National Commission to carry on the work in their
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community. Yes, it's very similar to the kind of setup we have in the Anti Defamation League where the principle
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concerns are funneled through our regional offices.
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Yes, Rev. Rollins? Well also we have a lot of paid staff who have
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other responsibilities like presbytery executives,
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theo-directors of Christian education who are located in sensitive positions,
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and one of the things that has been developed is what's been called adjunct staff
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and these people are available to be co-opted
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or called in to do specific
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or special jobs in a given areas.
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This council meets periodically to keep them abreast of what's going
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on and this is extra staff.
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Yes. As a matter of interest there are other denominations within the Protestant
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community who have similar setups of commissions on religion
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and race. They have different names. I think about seven actually.
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About seven denominations and then you mentioned the National Council of Churches.
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Now that Commission on Religion and Race serves what purpose?
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It serves as an overall coordinating Protestant body.
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It has about eight or nine staff persons.
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It has probably the largest budget of all of the church related
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agencies working in this field and it attempts to coordinate the activities
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of the other denominational religion
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and race committees or commissions
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and present a united Protestant front in this field.
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I see. We've had the pleasure through our resources
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and help of working together with your local commissions on religion
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and race and certain special concerns of housing
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and employment opportunity etc..
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Does this go all along the line in terms of interdenominational linkages
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with the national bodies?
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Reverend Rollins? Well there's a certain amount of denominational program,
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you know that you have to have justified the money
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and time spent. But hopefully there is more
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and more of an interfaith approach.
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We didn't mention I think but one of the examples of where there's real cooperation
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is the National Council's Delta Ministry project in
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Mississippi. Would you deal-
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Well that's even larger than our country because this also involves the World
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Council of Churches where money from overseas
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will be coming into the United States for the first time.
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Also fraternal workers from other countries will be working on the American race relations problem in
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Mississippi. Yes. Is that so? People from Africa
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and Asia and other parts of the world.
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I see. Now the one thing that comes
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for us from our discussion is this concern for the problem of race
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relations and racial injustice in the northern communities.
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Why this emphasis?
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Well you recall that last year between July 18th
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and Labor Day there were about nine major riots
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in the cities of the North
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and Midwest. Yes.
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This is certainly a symptom of the sickness
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of the large metropolitan area in our country where you have great
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concentrations of Negroes.
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There is no doubt that we're going to have some difficult in summer of 1965.
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I think the Civil Rights Act has made some difference.
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The poverty program will help.
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But there are still a lot of devils bedeviling the northern
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community in the field of race relations.
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We're turning to the north because we feel that we have a most important job to
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do there. Of course our churches are primarily located in these northern
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suburbs so we feel that we have a very distinctive responsibility to deal
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with the problem of segregation and housing
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and job opportunities and education in the great urban
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centers of the north. And you feel on the basis of preliminary probings
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and initial contacts that
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with the united religious forces a lot can be done.
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This is the only way it's going to be done, Rabbi.
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I think that we have acknowledged long sense that this is not a Presbyterian
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problem. Yes. This is a problem of all of us
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and it's got to be done on interdenominational interfaith basis.
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Every one of these northern cities we're trying to develop an interfaith approach.
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Yes. We're beginning of course
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with our own constituency and with other Protestants.
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Yes. But it will definitely expand into an interfaith approach to these problems.
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And the future you think harbors a great deal of
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hope for possibilities for improvement of race relations
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and the correction of racial injustice all along the line.
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Don't you think so, Reverend Rollins?
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Well I'm basically optimistic. I'd have to go along
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with that. Yes.
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Dr. Wilmore? I feel that this problem is going to be
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with us for a long time to come but I am personally delighted
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with the way the churches have responded in the last three years since the March
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on Washington particularly
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and I think we're going to see improvement across the board
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and the whole field of race relations within the churches in this country.
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I see. Thank you very much.
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We've had the pleasure tonight of listening to a discussion on new directions
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in race relations
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and have had as our guests two people who have
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playing a prominent role in the struggle for racial justice.
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Dr. Gayraud Wilmore, executive director of the Commission on Religion
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and Race of the United Presbyterian Church in the USA
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and his associate,
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Reverend Metz Rollins,
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the associate director of the commission.
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Listen to us two weeks from tonight for another program of our ADL forum.
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This is your moderator, Dr. Soloman S.
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Bernards. Goodnight.

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Details

Title: New directions in race relations, 1960s.
Description: Gayraud Wilmore and Metz Rollins interviewed by Rabbi Solomon S. Bernards for an ADL radio forum, 1960s.
Creator: Wilmore, Gayraud S. (interviewee)
Rollins, J. Metz (Joseph Metz), 1926- (interviewee)
Bernards, Solomon S., 1914-2004. (interviewer)
Date: 1960
ca. 1960s
Type of resource: sound recording-nonmusical
Genre: radio programs
interviews
sound recordings
Form: audiotapes
Extent: 1 audiotape reel : analog, 7 1/2 ips ; 7 in.
Language: English
Topics: Race relations--Religious aspects--Christianity.
Civil rights--Religious aspects--Christianity.
Geographic subjects: North and Central America--United States--New York--New York
Rights status: IN COPYRIGHT; http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Physical location: TAPE 760; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA
Related item: New directions in race relations [sound recording] / Dr. Gayraud Wilmore, Rev. Metz Rollins.--https://catalog.history.pcusa.org/cgi-bin/koha/opac-detail.pl?biblionumb...
Identifier (local): tape760
PID (Persistent Identifier): islandora:133242

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New directions in race relations, 1960s.

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