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Melva Costen unedited Living History interview, part 1.
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- speakerYou like it should you state your name
- speakerand who you are.
- speakerGood morning and Melber Wilson
- speakercast from
- speakera place called Due West South Carolina
- speakerinitially
- speakerand liked to boast of being
- speakera fourth generation
- speakerAfrican-American Presbyterian.
- speakerI grew up in South Carolina
- speakerhad to attend boarding schools because
- speakerthe local school was not
- speakeraccredited and we
- speakerwere born with the silver spoon
- speakerand that silver spoon said
- speakeryou will all go to college
- speakerand in order to get to college I need to find
- speakera school that offered
- speakeraccreditation.
- speakerSo Melva Coston
- speakerfrom DeWitt South Carolina.
- speakerWhat role did music play in your early
- speakerlife.
- speakerWhat are some of your earliest
- speakeror fondness musical memory.
- speakerIn my earliest life
- speakermy fondest memories begin
- speakerwith reminders of music.
- speakerMy mom was a pianist
- speakermy dad was a vocalist
- speakerhe incidentally was a
- speakerschool missionary in the former
- speakerNorthern Presbyterian Church
- speakerwhich was the one that African-Americans
- speakerbelonged to in the south.
- speakerSo that led singing
- speakerall the time and it seems as if our house
- speakerwas always a
- speakerpractice environment
- speakerbecause music
- speakerhappened all day long.
- speakerWe didn't have electricity.
- speakerSo in the first
- speakerstages of my life.
- speakerSo having music from the family
- speakerwas basic to
- speakerdelay a
- speakerlot. And then on Sundays at
- speakerchurch experienced
- speakerwhat I'm writing about these
- speakerdays about African-Americans
- speakerand religion in the early
- speakerpart of slavery.
- speakerDo you have any musical mentors who inspired
- speakeryou.
- speakerYeah. Both parents
- speakerboth parents are
- speakerconsidered my music
- speakermentors.
- speakerTheir inspiration
- speakerwas seemingly
- speakerbasic to life.
- speakerHave a mom and dad both college grads
- speakerboth teachers
- speakerboth involved in the same
- speakerkind of ministries that was
- speakerchurch
- speakerand school stuff
- speakerso inspirational.
- speakerPretty much was all around
- speakerme
- speakerand even beyond the houses
- speakerwe live in a neighborhood where we were all cousins
- speakerand we didn't just
- speakersing all the time
- speakerbut we acted play
- speakerfootball
- speakerbut there was a coach.
- speakerSo the neighborhood had a
- speakeryoung football team
- speakerand four or five girls were pulled
- speakerto be apart until we got
- speakerhurt.
- speakerBut life in general was
- speakera total inspiration.
- speakerDid you sing or play an instrument.
- speakerWell it was hard
- speakernot to survive in a family where
- speakeryour mom teaches music
- speakerand your dad sings them
- speakerSunday morning moms at the piano
- speakerplaying not to play an instrument.
- speakerSo yes indeed
- speakerI learned to play an instrument.
- speakerThey tell me that it's you know
- speaker6 they thought maybe I will be a
- speakerchild star
- speakerbut the teacher
- speakera professor at the college has looked
- speakerat my dad and said
- speakerI don't think she's going to make it so
- speakerlet's stop the piano lessons
- speakerand so they
- speakerstopped. But then
- speakerwhen I was about 12
- speakerbetween them and
- speakermom started to get again
- speakerI say us because my older sister
- speakerwas interested in taking piano lessons as
- speakerwell.
- speakerSo yes just pause
- speakerfor a moment of silence about
- speakerthe noise and said
- speakermy folks said OK.
- speakerA shopkeeper.
- speakerHere's a quick quick break.
- speakerKim
- speakergo ahead.
- speakerSo you were saying
- speakerwhite and brown 12
- speakeris your mother's China teaching us
- speakerat the age of 12.
- speakerBecause it came from college
- speakerand he was
- speakera tremendous pianist
- speakerand vocalist.
- speakerSo my mom said TriMet over
- speakeragain you know at 6
- speakershe wasn't ready so it was going on
- speakerand the music
- speakerbook Teaching the fingers to play
- speakerby John Thompson
- speakerwas very broad.
- speakerAnd so I started
- speakerwith always through the book
- speakerand my cousin said May
- speakerI call your mom for a minute.
- speakerSo when my mother came back
- speakerand says as
- speakerit seems like she's going to do very well
- speakerso I'm going to start the hymn
- speakerbook today as well.
- speakerSo the end of the lesson he
- speakerplayed
- speakerbringing in the sheaves
- speakerand the kids seat.
- speakerAnd he played
- speakerit so well up
- speakerand down the keyboard my mom burst
- speakerinto the room
- speakerthat was Mel
- speakerand he says no she's not quite there yet.
- speakerBut at the rate she's going
- speakeryou better bring some more music books.
- speakerAnd so it was an
- speakeruphill ride from then
- speakeron.
- speakerBy the time I got to boarding school
- speakerwhich was in my
- speaker11th year
- speakerat that time you could graduate from high
- speakerschool at 11
- speakerand
- speakerwith nothing else to do
- speakerthe piano teacher there just
- speakersit me asunder into
- speakerBach Beethoven and Brahms
- speakerand that's when my brothers
- speakerand sisters looked at me
- speakerand said oh no
- speakerthat means mom
- speakerand dad get a baby
- speakergrand throw that big piano
- speakerout.
- speakerBut they did not.
- speakerAnd beyond that
- speakermy life became a music world.
- speakerAnd that's
- speakerwhere I am in terms of
- speakerthe church.
- speakerIs there any particular song
- speakerhymn or spiritual
- speakerthat's been put chiclet particularly
- speakermeaningful to you over the course of
- speakeryour life.
- speakerCan you share with us some stories of
- speakerthose mothers.
- speakerYou know
- speakerwhen I think back you have to go
- speakerto conferences because
- speakermy dad was what it's called
- speakerI was called the Sunday
- speakerSchool missionary
- speakerand his assignment was
- speakerto help develop many churches
- speakerin the country.
- speakerAnd once he would get a group
- speakerof people together they would start
- speakera Sunday school
- speakerthat would then just call me up instantly
- speakerand said well
- speakerlet's leave them in a song.
- speakerAnd then he would start singing which meant
- speakerI had to find his key
- speakerand those was such
- speakerexciting that it was because the people
- speakerI don't know if you remember we don't get to
- speakerhear music they just love
- speakerit. And then that's when I begin to hear
- speakersounds that I'm now writing about
- speakerit sounded like the early sleeves
- speakersort of singing.
- speakerSo being led into situations
- speakerthat my parents to
- speakerengage music at the very
- speakerbasic core
- speakerwhat can I say when
- speakerbut Beethoven and Brahms begin to
- speakerrule my life.
- speakerSo yeah there's
- speakerno particular song that comes to mind
- speakerin terms of
- speakerinspiration just
- speakeryou name it and I wish it
- speakerkept playing it by ear.
- speakerBut then I'd have to find a hymnal that had
- speakerthe right key.
- speakerI don't think it was more exciting than just
- speakerplaying and creating a crowd.
- speakerSo our
- speakerhouse our church
- speakerand even the small
- speakergathering places that my dad would start
- speakernew churches
- speakerjust exciting
- speakerbut had one fallback.
- speakerI could see that my music created
- speakerproblems for me in that
- speakerI learned that
- speakerand notice me now because I've not
- speakerbeen at the keyboard since I've stopped
- speakerteaching in D.C.
- speakerI've learned that
- speakerI didn't have to
- speakerremember what happened at the conferences
- speakerof what happened anywhere
- speakerbecause I was playing
- speakerand my dad would start singing
- speakerand I had to find him on the people.
- speakerSo in a way it
- speakertempered my
- speakerlife to not want to talk
- speakerand nobody
- speakercan believe now that
- speakerI was not very
- speakercomfortable speaking in public.
- speakerAnd so one
- speakerSunday my dad texted me
- speakerand all the kids would go into a conference
- speakerto tell what they had done.
- speakerSo they looked at me as the Melbourne
- speakernot tell your story.
- speakerIt was play the piano daddy.
- speakerAnd he said
- speakerwe saw you playing
- speakertouchable or something.
- speakerWhat else happened.
- speakerAnd I began to cry in the middle of
- speakerthe church
- speakerand I learned about
- speakerthe importance of
- speakerchurch.
- speakerThe congregation then began
- speakerto hate me.
- speakerCome on baby says
- speakersomething.
- speakerAnd I would cry.
- speakerI would say something.
- speakerI said we will sing a song my
- speakerdad said and then you
- speakerplayed one of the classes.
- speakerThey said I should do that here.
- speakerSo if being a musician
- speakerhampered me to some extent because
- speakerit didn't have to use my voice
- speakerbut it worked alright.
- speakerWhen I ended up marrying him
- speakerhe preferred that I just
- speakerhelped choirs get started
- speakerand not say it that
- speakerway.
- speakerWhen did you find your voice.
- speakerCan you think back when
- speakerwhen that transition
- speakerwhen did that time.
- speakerWhen did you find your voice when
- speakerwhen you still spoke
- speakerthrough the music but when did you also find
- speakeryour voice. It is a
- speakergood question.
- speakerNormally I would take a moment
- speakerto distinguish
- speakerbetween
- speakerthe moments but it was the day
- speakerthat my dad pushed me in church
- speakerand between my two years
- speakerI finally wiped my eyes
- speakerwith my one little handkerchief
- speakerand then said
- speakerI did do some talking while
- speakerI was
- speakerand my daddy ended up
- speakerfive minutes he says yes not baby.
- speakerYou have spoken you know
- speakerI learned also have
- speakerto shut up sometimes even
- speakerwith the voice.
- speakerDo you notice yourself gravitating to
- speakerdifferent songs through different periods
- speakerof your life
- speakerand how so.
- speakerNo it's actually
- speakernot so much gravitating toward me was
- speakerwhatever was needed.
- speakerI have served
- speakeras quite a director in a number
- speakerof places the first places
- speakerwere in North Carolina where
- speakerI attended the Presbyterian
- speakerSchool. Johnson C.
- speakerSmith University where
- speakerword got out that there was a student
- speakerat eyeteeth Johnson C.
- speakerSmith who
- speakerwas a musician
- speakerand I began to be
- speakerpursued by the churches to
- speakerbe quite director.
- speakerAnd even then I was
- speakerapproaching my senior year in
- speakercollege and I was only 17
- speakerand I had.
- speakerAnd so it gave me an opportunity
- speakerto fill in that time
- speakerspace as I was trying to decide
- speakerhow to merge
- speakermy newly
- speakerchosen career as a
- speakerprimary school
- speakerteacher
- speakerwith music.
- speakerSo the Sundays
- speakerthat I would on Saturdays
- speakerI'd go to rehearsals
- speakerand the pastor would have a list
- speakerof songs that he would want them to learn.
- speakerThey would say to me suggest
- speakersomething that picks up the same
- speakerthing.
- speakerAnd so those
- speakerinstances
- speakerbroadened my perspective
- speakerwith him the first place
- speakerI had to play even in the Sharpe's
- speakerbut of music
- speakerin general knowing how to
- speakerlook at a text
- speakerand know how it would fit
- speakerwith scripture
- speakerand as I said that happened
- speakerbetween 17 and 18 when I
- speakerfinally finished college.
- speakerBut the excitement I think grew because
- speakerby that time a little reputation
- speakerabout me had gotten around Charlotte.
- speakerSo a number of churches
- speakerasked me to start teaching piano lessons
- speakercivil from hymnals
- speakerchoral music
- speakerbut we and Mendelssohn
- speakerand Brahms was
- speakera time to start teaching piano
- speakerlessons.
- speakerSo with all these things going
- speakerI think I also begin to feel
- speakerthe power of God pushing me
- speakerand I would wait
- speakerand see which direction shall I take
- speakerthis kind
- speakerof an answer.
- speakerSo
- speakerfumbled for a long time doing
- speakerit as well
- speakeryou write in your book in spirit
- speakerand in truth that you your husband
- speakerand children would sing together regularly
- speakeroften around a piano
- speakerand while traveling.
- speakerCan you tell us about that tradition.
- speakerOh I thought everybody was supposed to
- speakersing when they travel.
- speakerIt's helped between changing
- speakerdiapers and getting
- speakernew milk on the way
- speakerand we didn't really
- speakermake this very clear.
- speakerMy husband is a pastor was very
- speakerclear that
- speakerwe would never separate
- speakerfrom things at the family.
- speakerSo vacations revival
- speakerso traveling.
- speakerAfter a while I started
- speakerwith the starting to seeing Jim would start a
- speakersong
- speakerand the kids would join in.
- speakerAnd by the time we got
- speakerto the place we would
- speakerfind a place to rest
- speakernot always a hotel because
- speakerwe could not go into hotels in some places.
- speakerJim and I would talk about
- speakerwhat would life be like
- speakerif we didn't have music.
- speakerAnd
- speakerI said OK let's imagine a world
- speakerwithout music
- speakerand that means just be quiet so I can take
- speakera nap.
- speakerSo
- speakerthose were that was just one instance
- speakerbut I got to the place the kids
- speakerwould have heard new songs
- speakerespecially from a recent
- speakergospel arena
- speakeras they grew up
- speakerand they would want us to sing
- speakersing those songs.
- speakerAnd that when I say it that
- speakerway it forced
- speakerme to remember that I had to also
- speakerlisten to songs
- speakerthat were not in him.
- speakerAnd so the children
- speakerwho led us from familiarity
- speakerto the things that they
- speakerlike to be
- speakeron Twinkle Twinkle Little Star
- speakerbroadened our perspective
- speakeras parents in
- speakerterms of their leadership
- speakerin helping us to find that voice
- speakerthat we needed as we traveled.
- speakerHow did that practice fund you as
- speakera family. The singing together
- speakeryou know I can say
- speakerthat
- speakerif it hadn't been music it would have been
- speakersomething because we have we've
- speakeralways been close
- speakeras a family.
- speakerI think basically because I grew up
- speakerthere only five children.
- speakerBut the kids in the neighborhood
- speakerand the neighbors some of the cousins would come.
- speakerI grew up around
- speakerthem so
- speakermuch so extensively that
- speakermy assumption was
- speakerand still is that life
- speakerfunctions around
- speakera particular to
- speakera particular song.
- speakerAnd
- speakernow that they are all involved in music
- speakerand the grand kids begin to come along
- speakerthey had a different repertoire
- speakerand this was interesting because
- speakermy husband and I realized that
- speakerwe were little stubborn about what we thought
- speakerthey should know
- speakeras churchgoing children
- speakerand the things that they were hearing on the radio.
- speakerAnd if you spent time
- speakerwith stop them in midair you cannot sing.
- speakerThey still say this
- speakerand we realize that this was
- speakerthe dividing point between
- speakermom dad
- speakerand the three children.
- speakerWe just had three.
- speakerAnd so
- speakerpart of that growth
- speakermyth sending
- speakerour daughter. We only have one daughter
- speakerto piano teacher
- speakerZilberman we're not interested in
- speakerteaching Goldfinger's fingers to play they wanted to
- speakerplay football.
- speakerSo Cheryl became the
- speakermusician in the hall
- speakerand she was really
- speakermore interested in art
- speakeror some of the
- speakerclassical musicians that I didn't
- speakerhave to play along the
- speakerway.
- speakerSo we found ourselves
- speakeras a family
- speakerallowing her leadership
- speakerin determining not only
- speakerwhat we sang
- speakerbut what we listened to as we travel.
- speakerUnfortunately once she picked
- speakerup a violin she
- speakerlost to me in terms of repertoire
- speakerand so
- speakerI found myself moving more
- speakerand more to her tune
- speakerto her places her recitals
- speakerand it was not until
- speakerI began teaching
- speakerin the seminary that I
- speakerthat we reclaim our heritage
- speakeras a musical family
- speakerand that was an interesting transition.
- speakerQ When I trained
- speakeras a transition was that
- speakerby this time music
- speakerand theological seminaries
- speakerhad transitioned
- speakerto more
- speakerof a gospel.
- speakerGospel music was pretty much taken over
- speakerand I really was not prepared for
- speakeraccompanying
- speakerteaching.
- speakerSo thank
- speakerGod for some moments in the middle of a
- speakerchapel service at Interdenominational
- speakerTheological Center.
- speakerI was conducting
- speakerone of the five gospel songs
- speakerthat I knew as
- speakera student in the choir
- speakercontralto tremendous
- speakervoice realize
- speakerthat I was getting
- speakerlost in terms of conducting
- speakerand she simply
- speakerstepped up to me
- speakerand saying move out of the way
- speakerand we'll take over.
- speakerSo that excitement
- speakerat the center was
- speakerwatched this classical musician
- speakermove out of the way
- speakerand gone
- speakerbut the movement did not take
- speakerus too far from each other because I really
- speakerwanted them to move on to the
- speakerseminary students to
- speakergrow in the area of
- speakerclassical music
- speakerclassical choral music because
- speakerthe musicians that I was meeting along
- speakerthe way at seminary level
- speakerwere classical musicians.
- speakerSo
- speakerI learned that you
- speakerfind one
- speakeror two things that
- speakera gospel led the
- speakerseminary choir
- speakerwill take you
- speakerbut will not force you there.
- speakerSo Afghanistan as a
- speakerwalking as if I were going to have
- speakerto force them by
- speakerthis time. Guess what.
- speakerWe had students from Africa
- speakerand Spanish
- speakerspeaking cultures Puerto Rico
- speakerand another
- speakerdimension
- speakerof musical sound began to
- speakertake over
- speakerand that broadened
- speakermy perspective
- speakerwhich forced me to help broaden the
- speakerseminary students
- speakerperspective.
- speakerIt's really kind of exciting because
- speakerat the helm of this was God's
- speakerpushing me to say yes when the committee
- speakercame along and said we
- speakerwant you to be chair of a committee that
- speakeryou need a break
- speakerto walk Walker you need
- speakerto drink I do not want to.
- speakerSo I'm fine thank you.
- speakerJust make sure you make sure you're
- speakerOK.
- speakerHow do you think.
- speakerOK so going back to your book
- speakerin spirit and truth that the family sang
- speakertogether.
- speakerHow do you think it let you reflect
- speakeror respond to some of the things you
- speakerare experiencing in life.
- speakerWriting period became another
- speakerexpansion area for me
- speakerin general
- speakerand
- speakergrowth in music
- speakerand doing research
- speakerfor other schools
- speakerthat I was
- speakercalled to do it in
- speakeracademic settings
- speakerof liturgy
- speakerand music gatherings
- speakerand
- speakerMontreat.
- speakerIf this is on
- speakera particular kind of music
- speakerforced me into
- speakerdeep then I guess the word deepend
- speakershould undergird everything
- speakerthat I'm saying.
- speakerEach stage of movement
- speakerprovided a depth
- speakerof entry sometimes they fall into.
- speakerSuddenly as I did in seminary when
- speakerthe gospel music arena took
- speakerover and I'm conducting
- speakerit all I can do is move
- speakerwith the flow and the student walks up
- speakerand says
- speakerand sings I'm now in charge
- speakerand beginning to write about
- speakerit.
- speakerIf I'm in the middle of the writing right
- speakerat this moment
- speakerand
- speakerit's about a subject I've always
- speakerwanted to get into that
- speakerhad to do with the history the evolution
- speakerof African-American gospel music I
- speakergrowing up in the south know for
- speakera fact that the roots
- speakerare more located
- speakerin the south
- speakerof the Southern preaching style
- speakerof black ministers
- speakerand so
- speakerintroducing that idea has
- speakersent me into more books
- speakerand I really wanted to get into.
- speakerBut it's astounding
- speakerthe fact that we have left
- speakera lot of people did not go there.
- speakerYou know this is not good music
- speakerbut when you talk about gospel music now
- speakerand look at what's going on
- speakeryou can trace it back quickly
- speakerto the 18th rather than
- speakerthe 20th pre 20th centuries.
- speakerSo
- speakerin spirit and in truth was one of
- speakerthe foundational places
- speakeras I read what I had written
- speakerabout gospel music at one
- speakerpoint and now looking through
- speakerthe lens of
- speakerSouthern black
- speakerpreachers whose
- speakerstyle
- speakerincidentally they
- speakercall for a call
- speakerand response
- speakersort of tradition.
- speakerSo I must confess
- speakerthat writing
- speakerhas brought my perspective
- speakerand even
- speakersay this with my kids watching
- speakerme my computer practically every
- speakernight
- speakermoving into areas
- speakerthat I feel my dad is
- speakerpushing me into.
- speakerYou know you waited
- speakertill you were 12 to become this musician
- speakerdad would say so
- speakergo for it.
- speakerSo who knows what the next
- speaker15 or 20 years will be in terms
- speakerof that musical
- speakerstyle.
- speakerAny truth incidentally
- speakerwas the last book that I was
- speakerworking on
- speakerbefore my husband transitioned
- speakerand googling hospital.
- speakerIt's been a lot of time there.
- speakerThen he looked at me and said
- speakerI don't see you
- speakerwith any yellow pad
- speakerwriting that book needs
- speakerto get into Westminster John
- speakerKnox Press hand.
- speakerSoon as you get that he would doze
- speakerback to sleep.
- speakerI would sneak out
- speakerand write but no
- speakerone knew what was going on
- speakerwith him I could feel the distance
- speakerthing of
- speakermy writing
- speakerwith wanting to
- speakerhelp him in this transition.
- speakerSo even
- speakerin the midst of all of this I was doing workshops
- speakerall over the country.
- speakerI come back and he looked at me
- speakerand said Have you
- speakerbeen.
- speakerAnd I was gathering data right
- speakerhere.
- speakerSo yes
- speakermusic has been foundational in
- speakerterms of
- speakermovement and acceptance of
- speakerlife as it converges
- speakerupon
- speakerKhalef about how you went into
- speakerthe study of African-American worship
- speakermusic.
- speakerWhat inspired
- speakerinspiration came from being
- speakercalled the president
- speakerof the theological seminary here in Atlanta
- speakerwhich is interdenominational
- speakertheological center.
- speakerWas there a United Methodist pastor.
- speakerAnd because we had so much excitement
- speakerin this church
- speakerincluding the fact that after the service
- speakerafter the sermon the kids would go to Sunday
- speakerschool.
- speakerThe adults who make circles
- speakeramong these chairs that are here
- speakerand we would just talk about how we were going
- speakerto live through the
- speakerweek with the message.
- speakerJim was the pastor
- speakerand he would move from group to group.
- speakerSometimes he would get into very heated
- speakerconversations.
- speakerSo one of the graduates
- speakerwith the doctorate already going up
- speakerto ITC and said I need to take a course
- speakerin Theology.
- speakerMy pastor Jim Carson is forcing
- speakerme to look again
- speakerat what theology means when
- speakerit comes to worship.
- speakerAnd so
- speakerhe said because of your
- speakerpast and Jonas's of
- speakerthose cases the roots of one of the things
- speakerthat I'm going to go to church.
- speakerSo Zali came to church we had
- speakeramphitheater all the whole
- speakerchurch was a fire.
- speakerThe neighbors were everywhere.
- speakerAnd after church came to me
- speakerand handed me a card
- speakerand say your contract
- speakeris on my desk.
- speakerCome over and help us learn how
- speakerto teach worship.
- speakerAnd I said to myself sure
- speakerwithout having had a course
- speakeracademic course.
- speakerSo when I got to ITC
- speakerjust to do the music
- speakerwith it you know
- speakerwhatever my title was had to do
- speakerwith music.
- speakerAnd in the middle of one of the class sessions
- speakerthe professor of worship
- speakerdropped dead just
- speakerright from the students
- speakerand this too.
- speakerAnd that evening
- speakermy husband after he got over the shock
- speakerand.
- speakerHe was dean
- speakerof John Smith seminary
- speakerand said to me I'm
- speakergoing to put your name forward because you're the only
- speakerone I see who
- speakeris willing to lift your experience
- speakerwith the Presbyterian reformed
- speakerscholars
- speakerand worship because
- speakerI'm going to recommend you to teach the course
- speakeryes.
- speakerOK.
- speakerWe'll see how it works.
- speakerFirst day it didn't work because the gentleman
- speakerin the class were happy to see a woman
- speakerteaching
- speakerthis Mr. class.
- speakerCall my husband I can't do this.
- speakerSo he went in the next day
- speakerwith me and said to the students
- speakeryou've got to dig this lady because
- speakerI don't know enough about worship.
- speakerI'm a preacher
- speakerand academician
- speakerso once I became full time foot
- speakerworship professor
- speakerI had to start looking African-American
- speakerwell African because we
- speakerare a large number of African students they would say
- speakerto me after class
- speakerthere was a point in what you were doing
- speakerthat we could have told you how that
- speakerhappened in Africa
- speakerand it's still the same in America.
- speakerOK. By that time we were traveling
- speakerin and out of Africa.
- speakerSo my focus
- speakeron Africa
- speakerand African-American Christians
- speakerjust blossomed forth
- speakerand every year we will go in that this
- speakertime to
- speakerEast Africa
- speakerand gave
- speakerus an opportunity
- speakerto test contd
- speakercontinuum from Africa
- speakerthrough the slave period
- speakerinto African-American music
- speakerand worship sure
- speakerthat growth has been phenomenal.
- speakerIt still is still on
- speakerbecause even as I was
- speakerwriting last night about
- speakersomething that happens in worship
- speakerthat we saw in Africa
- speakerI had to go through books to find where
- speakerI find the origin of these
- speakerthings.
- speakerSo that has become
- speakerexplosive in terms of
- speakermy interest in making
- speakersure this gets written
- speakerbecause
- speakerI think we will lose our African heritage
- speakerif we didn't get caught up in the
- speakerworship traditions that
- speakerreally have continued
- speakerin American churches.
- speakerIf you ever been to would like to ask
- speakeryou this would be
- speakerinteresting if you would go to an African American
- speakerchurch and see
- speakerwhether you could enjoy
- speakerand appreciate
- speakersome of things that are happening
- speakerin worship which are really continuation
- speakerof Africa
- speakerin this country.
- speakerI would definitely enjoy
- speakeryou would love to help
- speakeryou with.
- speakerAnd I would be middle
- speakerlittle the situation
- speakerin Africa
- speakerand our leader was to my husband to say
- speakerDoes this sound for me.
- speakerDoes that sound familiar.
- speakerBecause what we learn we've learned that a lot of
- speakerthe spirituals of course
- speakerare continuations
- speakerof African traditions not from the
- speakereast coast as much as from the
- speakerWest
- speakerbut
- speakerthere's still a lot
- speakerthat needs to be learned
- speakerand taught to
- speakerseminarians
- speakerand congregations about
- speakercontinue
- speakeryou were active around a number of
- speakernational and international social
- speakerissues most notably
- speakerthat of civil of civil rights
- speakerin the mid 20th century.
- speakerCould you describe your involvement.
- speakerHow did you become active
- speakerand how would you describe your
- speakerrole and what you
- speakerneed to definitely talk about fight.
- speakerYou know how did you participate in the civil
- speakerrights.
- speakerThanks for that question because
- speakerbeing able to talk about that
- speakeris not as everyday
- speakerpresent as it was when my husband
- speakerlived.
- speakerAnd must says something about our relationship
- speakerin terms of
- speakerknowing who we were
- speakerto be in God's
- speakerpresence.
- speakerWe met in college
- speakerand
- speakerhe had arrived for
- speakertwo years
- speakerexposure to
- speakerPresbyterianism.
- speakerAll of a sudden he became Catholic
- speakerPresbyterian.
- speakerSo even when we went
- speakerto my dad
- speakermy mom passed
- speakerand to ask his permission
- speakerto get married.
- speakerHim with fear
- speakerand trembling because my dad was a
- speakerpretty tough father
- speakerwith four girls
- speakerand one boy.
- speakerAnd that's where we learned
- speakernow it actually is being
- speakervery very tight.
- speakerSo one of the days that we were
- speakerat home visiting dad
- speakerand he was to pop the question every
- speakerday even as he committed he
- speakersaid no it couldn't get through to him this time
- speakerthis particular day my dad said to have come
- speakerright with me.
- speakerAnd as he began the ride to the country
- speakerI mean nothing but hills
- speakerand trees and
- speakershack houses on the way
- speakermy dad would say to my husband
- speakeryou need to see I never grew up.
- speakerBefore you even consider marriage.
- speakerAnd so Jim said Well
- speakerthis is pretty hot.
- speakerI love the country.
- speakerAnd he said
- speakeryou need to be clear about how I never
- speakergrew up so that you can
- speakerunderstand the country so you can
- speakerunderstand human history
- speakerand so that you could understand marriage.
- speakerAnd by the time he got back he had had
- speakerseveral opportunities
- speakerto see a dead man.
- speakerI won't cite them all
- speakerbut one had to do with the passing
- speakerservice stations that my husband really needed
- speakerto stop at the service station that
- speakerhe did not know that
- speakerAfrican-Americans could not go
- speakerto the restrooms and service stations.
- speakerSo when we returned to Spartanburg
- speakerfrom parents left
- speakerdad and his wife
- speakerI said with a daddy saying
- speakerMy husband land he
- speakerchuckles
- speakerand I said Well aren't you going to tell me
- speakerwe're going to get married in a show for
- speakeranother. Or what's going on.
- speakerAnd that's when he said until Mrs.
- speakeryour dad told me more about
- speakeryou
- speakerand your growing up years
- speakerand just writing
- speakerthat he did it in words.
- speakerHe loved to talk but he talked about the church because he was
- speakera Sunday school missionary for the Presbyterians
- speakerand then
- speakerhe said I might ask him one more time because
- speakerwe want to get married next year at commencement
- speakerbecause that's where my mom is coming
- speakerand will it be cheaper for us to have
- speakera wedding right on the campus.
- speakerSo that
- speakergave us permission only saying that that member
- speakerwill only be 18.
- speakerAnd I was hoping she'd
- speakergone to grad school at Howard University
- speakerand become a concert pianist.
- speakerBut let me see.
- speakerI guess she'd make a pretty good
- speakeryou would you going to be a preacher
- speakerto make a pretty good picture as.
- speakerSo we went back
- speakerto campus all excited about
- speakerour wedding which would be on baccalaureate
- speakerSunday at Johnson C.
- speakerSmith University
- speakerand the time between that
- speakerand the time we walked
- speakerdown the aisle at the University Church
- speakerwas talking about
- speakerwhat is it going to be like
- speakerwith a wife
- speakera musician wife
- speakerand a father who I'm sure at that
- speakerage will live forever
- speakerwho will still be fathering
- speakeryou.
- speakerAnd I said Well
- speakerI'll tell you one thing I learned a lot from my
- speakerdad
- speakerand that is the man
- speakerin the house is the boss.
- speakerAnd so you're finally catering
- speakerto whatever you want to do your leadership.
- speakerWho would know that as soon as we
- speakerwere married first child
- speakerand move to Rocky Mount North Carolina
- speakerthat we would be thrust
- speakerimmediately into
- speakerracism.
- speakerThe year was 1955.
- speakerNot too long ago
- speakeryet.
- speakerMartin King was already active.
- speakerAnd when we were in Charlotte we were
- speakerwith the civil rights
- speakerthe sit ins where the college
- speakerlevel we would sit in
- speakerrestaurants that would not serve
- speakerus
- speakerbut
- speakerwe didn't walk out
- speakersometimes until the end of the day.
- speakerAnd the
- speakerpeople at Wal-Mart walk
- speakerWalgreens or whatever we would try to
- speakereat say well
- speakerthey would laugh when we left
- speakerbecause in the middle of that
- speakerwe would burst into speaking
- speakerlike.
- speakerMost of us were in the choir
- speakerand we sing a lot of songs in Latin
- speakerand we would just use that language
- speakerand they would come by
- speakerand look at us and say you know they're not even
- speakerAmericans are all
- speakeraround. Say what is that.
- speakerSo in came out when we arrived
- speakerin Jim's first assignments
- speakerfor himself was to bring
- speakerkids from Philadelphia
- speakerand Pittsburgh to rocking
- speakerout to help paint
- speakera church in the country
- speakerand Elm City.
- speakerAnd so he found himself having
- speakerto
- speakerask the man he went to the man.
- speakerI mean he was very bold
- speakerand brave.
- speakerIt was a large guy.
- speakerSo when he walked in everybody would come sit down
- speakerand not get in his way
- speakerand he simply said I just want your permission
- speakerto bring white students into
- speakerthe city.
- speakerThey will be living with the three
- speakerblack families
- speakerand we're not here for
- speakeranything. They're just going to paint the church.
- speakerAnd so in the meantime I was going to
- speakergrad school in Chapel Hill
- speakerbut the night
- speakerthat the Klan came
- speakerto run the kids out
- speakerhit the paper
- speakerand I went back to class if you see
- speakerChapel Hill
- speakerMy professor called Roll Call My
- speakerName and reiterated
- speakermy name and I looked up
- speakerand said some of the.
- speakerAnd at the end of the roll call
- speakerthis is a need to see you.
- speakerWell that's when fear struck
- speakerand it was justifiable
- speakerfear because the class
- speakerleft so it left
- speakerthe teacher
- speakerand me in the room
- speakerand he kept wanting to make sure he
- speakerwould not start this discussion
- speakerwith the students in the room.
- speakerAnd when he asked
- speakerhe says the main costume is all of that
- speakerin North Carolina headlines.
- speakerDo you happen to know this James costume.
- speakerHe said it with such as
- speakerhe asked a question so sternly
- speakerand Tyrian purple
- speakeras he asked it and I boldly
- speakerfaced him and says James Custer is
- speakermy husband.
- speakerAnd at that moment
- speakerwe're left
- speakerbecause I could feel the class returning
- speakerand as they all
- speakerfound that same sense they set out
- speakerand
- speakerone of the students said we want to hear the story.
- speakerSo I told
- speakerhim how we he
- speakerwas in the headlines.
- speakerWe had to sing the students back home
- speakerbecause they were burning across
- speakerthe black church yard
- speakerand the members of the congregation who
- speakerhad kept the white kids were
- speakervery disturbed.
- speakerSo they said
- speakerYou do know that the Klan has
- speakerordered
- speakerthis college to
- speakerbrace itself for a killing.
- speakerI simply said who's going to get killed.
- speakerThis is probably you.
- speakerYou're the only black in the music department.
- speakerAnd I said
- speakerI really shrug my shoulders
- speakerand that's when the professor stood
- speakerwith stood in front of me was Vertov
- speakerand he came toward me.
- speakerI stood up
- speakerand said to myself God
- speakerwhat is this going to be
- speakerthe end of my life.
- speakerAnd he reached toward me
- speakerboth hands
- speakerand grabbed my hand
- speakerand says Please tell your husband that I am a member
- speakerof the NAACP
- speakerand would like him to know that
- speakerI will come join him whenever
- speakerhe needs me.
- speakerAnd the whole room then converged
- speakerupon me
- speakerwith aplomb and say
- speakeryou don't know that we stayed at
- speakerthe library until you leave at
- speakernight because somebody
- speakersaid don't tell her.
- speakerWell the word is that you're going
- speakerto get killed and we just kind of won't be there
- speakerand see it after that.
- speakerAnd that's not what they meant
- speakerof course
- speakerbut that's when confidence
- speakerin God and students who have been
- speakerprotecting me for three weeks
- speakerand knowing that even when I left
- speakerChapel Hill the danger would be between
- speakerChapel Hill and Rocky Mountain.
- speakerBut during that time as the Lord would have
- speakerit only
- speakerthe mandibles going on
- speakerbecause
- speakerof the times I got home my husband looks at me very
- speakersternly and said they
- speakeralmost killed our oldest son.
- speakerMy question was
- speakerhow could they almost kill him said
- speakerwhile he was crossing the street
- speakerand this car had been sitting there
- speakerwatching
- speakerand took out after it
- speakerand except that he could jump pretty
- speakerhigh.
- speakerHe could get killed.
- speakerSo I said okay
- speakernow day what happened in Chapel Hill
- speakernot what would happen there.
- speakerAnd that's when we set out on my
- speakerway
- speakerwith three children.
- speakerWe'd be in trouble if both of us
- speakergot killed so we got to stop
- speakerone of us from getting killed.
- speakerAnd that's what I picked
- speakerup the phone and call my stepmother.
- speakerBut dad had died
- speakerand had to live with it.
- speakerI have one more
- speakermonths at Chapel Hill
- speakerbefore my children get killed.
- speakerAnd by that time she screamed
- speakerand just
- speakerfussed at me
- speakerfor allowing
- speakerthis kind of tension to take it
- speakerto evolve in the house.
- speakerAnd so she said it's brain the
- speakerchildren or at least they will
- speakersurvive and I said mom one
- speakerof us is going to survive.
- speakerSo that one of us at least can help raise the children.
- speakerAnd
- speakeras you can see from my son
- speakerwho's there is nobody got killed
- speakerbut a lot happened
- speakerJim himself leading the civil rights
- speakermovement in that area
- speakerwith ministers who knew Martin
- speakerpersonally
- speakerand we would sneak
- speakerMartin Luther King
- speakerinto town.
- speakerTo lead
- speakerdemonstrations
- speakerthat is what we really can kill.
- speakerAnd I will not prolong this
- speakerbut it is in my heart right
- speakernow as I
- speakerknew I have to go talk to Christine.
- speakerHis sister
- speakerpresold
- speakerduring that time there
- speakerwith the undertaker the African-American
- speakerundertaker will take his fleet of
- speakercars to Raleigh
- speakerassuming to pick up her body.
- speakerNobody would pay them any attention that
- speakerwould stick Martin Luther King
- speakerinto one of those cars.
- speakerAnd with this huge delegation
- speakerlooking like a funeral
- speakerwe would drive into Rackemann.
- speakerI never knew where Martin stayed.
- speakerAll I knew was the importance of music
- speakerbecause by that time we have
- speakerfor the four
- speakeror five years we had a city
- speakerchoir and I was a accompanist for it
- speakerand this was going to be our first time
- speakerbringing Martin Luther King into
- speakeran arena heavily
- speakerguarded by blacks
- speakerwho learned to handle Gonzales
- speakersudden cuts. Police would not get involved
- speakerand
- speakerJim said to me.
- speakerAll right. I can't tell you where Martin
- speakeris. I can't even tell you when he's
- speakergonna arrive arrive
- speakerbut I won't be upfront.
- speakerYou know we've got it so he's carefully guarded
- speakerand we want you to start
- speakerin flummoxes
- speakerat the point that we're walking.
- speakerAnd
- speakerso I said we're going to do it in English.
- speakerLet me just do a lab
- speakerabout what you're saying about anyway.
- speakerSo
- speakeroh I said How will I know that.
- speakerMARTIN Is there.
- speakerHe said
- speakerand I'll say something
- speakeruntil a guy that say something about BlackBerry
- speakerpie
- speakerand the message we've been
- speakerwe've been singing I guess we've been in Howard
- speakersinging and the people gathering.
- speakerWe were all scared
- speakerand
- speakerBalitang until we walked up
- speakerand he said you said
- speakerhe was black we're bad.
- speakerThat meant Martin was on the way.
- speakerSo
- speakerI got word to that to the director
- speakerand we started for models
- speakerand with all of the beautiful
- speakermusic from this huge choir
- speakerand the delegation of gentlemen.
- speakerAnd they could not see that Martin was in the
- speakermiddle of the delegation.
- speakerWe got Martin so that he was on the platform
- speakerand he
- speakergave his all of his speeches.
- speakerAnd thanks Rocky Mount for being one of the
- speakerfar eastern cities
- speakerto take seriously the civil rights movement.
- speakerSo into that everybody is
- speakerstanding I mean it was I was crying.
- speakerAnd
- speakerall I knew was when I got to the home
- speakerof the undertaker that was Martin
- speakerand I have a picture of my wallet.
- speakerHe may want to come to my house.
- speakerMartin was sitting
- speakerwith us having dinner teased
- speakerbecause his wife of course was a singer
- speakerand he says great about what you hear from
- speakerher. She would like to come
- speakerand give a concert.
- speakerSo that was one
- speakerof the moments that there are many
- speakermore because we even
- speakerforced
- speakertwo of our children into an
- speakerinterview to school
- speakerthat was the first
- speakerintegration
- speakerof an elementary school
- speakereast coast of North Carolina.
- speakerAnd the
- speakertest case was Craig
- speakerCoston the gentleman you just
- speakermet the baby is us
- speakerif he was the baby there
- speakerversus the city of Rocky Mount
- speakerto get him into this white school.
- speakerAnd we had a lot of you who
- speakerdon't so much of this he simply said to us
- speakerlet me see the young man at least an
- speakerhour before
- speakerCraig was 6 years old.
- speakerI was six
- speakerand my
- speakerhusband looked at him he says this is a tough
- speakercharacter. So can I get
- speakerin there about an hour
- speakerand a half. Because
- speakerthe thing we want you to do is to just
- speakertell him not to talk.
- speakerYou do the talking
- speakerbecause if the judge asks submitted thing
- speakerhe will say I don't want to do this.
- speakerI will go to my black school.
- speakerSo on
- speakerthe case that day
- speakerand that was that open
- speakerenrollment to schools in to North Carolina.
- speakerAnd I could give those kind of
- speakermoments. But in the process of going through that
- speakerJuman I realize the importance
- speakerof husband
- speakerand wife being
- speakervery clear that
- speakermarriage was a mutual affair
- speakerand I that's why it was
- speakerso close to our children.
- speakerChildren have to take that because
- speakerwe had they had to be used.
- speakerI'm going to get the kids
- speakerat the end of the season when the
- speakerclan stop
- speakerbothering us.
- speakerWe went to get our kids in
- speakerSpartanburg South Carolina
- speakerand my stepmother who was very
- speakerinteresting to me had a child at home that had
- speakersuch protection.
- speakerThe children she gave us a lecture before
- speakerwe even let us sit down
- speakerand her lecture was
- speakerdon't let these children have to face this
- speakerkind of stuff.
- speakerWhat you and Jim need to do a
- speakerlot of love is you can have a look
- speakerat each other and yes mother.
- speakerYes mother yes
- speakermother
- speakerand
- speakerwe hear her to a large extent
- speakerbut
- speakergetting into these moments as
- speakerthey got started this by talking about
- speakerthe importance of our Jim
- speakerand my relationship it was
- speakerimportant for each of us to
- speakerknow
- speakerthat
- speakerhelping each other along the way
- speakeras a team would
- speakerbe our basic contribution to
- speakerthat church
- speakeror any other church.
- speakerAnd that was
- speakerbefore he ran for moderator.
- speakerSo long story
- speakerbut it's it's my story my civil
- speakerrights story for the day because that
- speakerbecause it involves the children.
- speakerIt's one of our peak moments
- speakerwhen we move to Atlanta
- speakerand we never knew
- speakerwhen Dr.
- speakerKing would be either in the
- speakerHouse or the house we were visiting.
- speakerAnd again those were dangerous times.
- speakerBut
- speakerthe only time I saw the fear
- speakerin all of this and my husband
- speakerwas when
- speakerthere was a fire in one of the
- speakerneighborhoods.
- speakerAnd Jim and all those who were leading the movement
- speakerwere dressed
- speakerand he in the middle of all of that
- speakeralmost lost his life.
- speakerYou know what when I was about to throw Malakoff
- speakercocktail.
- speakerAnd Jim bravely
- speakergrabbed her arm
- speakerand pleaded
- speakerwith her not to
- speakerdo this about
- speakerthe young woman.
- speakerFirst of all called
- speakerit what he wanted to call him
- speakerand said hey arrived here
- speakerwith a towel
- speakerand a white shirt.
- speakerYou go tell me.
- speakerSo once she let him go
- speakerand he found a path
- speakerhe came home.
- speakerAnd when he opened the door
- speakerI don't think I'd ever see this
- speakerbut Jim was as white as a sheet.
- speakerAnd he just stood there
- speakerand just looked at me
- speakerand then finally embraced me
- speakerand said you almost
- speakergot killed.
- speakerHe said
- speakerI locked the door because I'm not sure that
- speakerlady is still
- speakerrunning after me
- speakerand if I get killed because a black
- speakerwoman would have killed me if
- speakerit was only two days later that we could laugh
- speakerbecause those were taken moments.
- speakerBut I don't think either of us.
- speakerI know that neither
- speakerof us would have not
- speakerbeen as actively
- speakerparticipants in the movement.
- speakerIf we had not
- speakercanceled scenes you
- speakersent what
- speakertwo days or
- speakerso soon may.
- speakerThank
- speakeryou. That's it.
- speakerWell you know I to while
- speakerthe importance of the community.
- speakerIt was not just James
- speakerthat fight.
- speakerThis was a fight in which we had
- speakerdeliberately
- speakerthrust ourselves.
- speakerAnd then when we came to Atlanta
- speakerone of the reasons he accepted his position
- speakerhere that may be at some point I
- speakerwill share how we got to this
- speakerhuge
- speakerempire amphitheater
- speakertype congregation
- speakeragain.
- speakerBecause she was raised in Omaha Nebraska.
- speakerNot familiar with fear
- speakerand danger.
- speakerI think it was during his Catholic days when
- speakerhe saw
- speakerso much power in the
- speakerCatholic robe that
- speakerthe garb was more important
- speakerto him than it really would
- speakerput he found out that he would similar that
- speakerit's it's more than what you wear.
- speakerIt's you know the good
- speakeryou bring from God
- speakerback to ministry
- speakerand ministry is a communal
- speakeraffair.
- speakerAnd I do that
- speakerbecause music is what is
- speakera communal affair.
- speakerSo life with
- speakerPresbyterian minister all that
- speakerin with the
- speakerby the time we started to this
- speakerbuilding he knew
- speakerthat
- speakerhis ministry would be presbyterian
- speakerand that Catholic
- speakerChurch has meaning for
- speakerboth of us because I'm
- speakerthe fourth generation
- speakerPresbyterians and I have great grandson
- speakerthere is a second generation
- speakerof Presbyterians
- speakerin my household that
- speakereven in Chipps absence through death
- speakerhe would rejoice in knowing that
- speakerall of them so far have been baptized
- speakerin this church
- speakerand they may not
- speakerbut some of them live in other places.
- speakerBut being
- speakerPresbyterian has been very meaningful
- speakersaid
- speakerno reason
- speakerto be.
- speakerOh no.
- speakerSo why me.
- speakerYou don't need to be.
- speakerOh my gosh.
- speakerWhen you're with us now
- speakercan see if
- speakerI can put
- speakerloops tapped
- speakerhim there he is
- speakerthe
- speakerI don't know
- speakerwhy.
- speakerI don't know.
- speakerI'm not
- speakerkilling
- speakerthanks
- speakerto give me
- speakerthe.
- speakerI think he's at
- speakerleast
- speakerto squirm.
- speakerI don't want to hear
- speakerthis. You
- speakerknow bulletins from Sunday
- speakerpeople
- speakerwork
- speakerrecording
- speakerin the morning.