Melva Costen unedited Living History interview, part 1.

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    You like it should you state your name
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    and who you are.
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    Good morning and Melber Wilson
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    cast from
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    a place called Due West South Carolina
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    initially
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    and liked to boast of being
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    a fourth generation
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    African-American Presbyterian.
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    I grew up in South Carolina
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    had to attend boarding schools because
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    the local school was not
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    accredited and we
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    were born with the silver spoon
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    and that silver spoon said
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    you will all go to college
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    and in order to get to college I need to find
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    a school that offered
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    accreditation.
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    So Melva Coston
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    from DeWitt South Carolina.
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    What role did music play in your early
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    life.
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    What are some of your earliest
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    or fondness musical memory.
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    In my earliest life
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    my fondest memories begin
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    with reminders of music.
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    My mom was a pianist
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    my dad was a vocalist
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    he incidentally was a
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    school missionary in the former
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    Northern Presbyterian Church
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    which was the one that African-Americans
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    belonged to in the south.
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    So that led singing
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    all the time and it seems as if our house
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    was always a
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    practice environment
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    because music
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    happened all day long.
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    We didn't have electricity.
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    So in the first
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    stages of my life.
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    So having music from the family
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    was basic to
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    delay a
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    lot. And then on Sundays at
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    church experienced
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    what I'm writing about these
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    days about African-Americans
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    and religion in the early
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    part of slavery.
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    Do you have any musical mentors who inspired
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    you.
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    Yeah. Both parents
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    both parents are
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    considered my music
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    mentors.
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    Their inspiration
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    was seemingly
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    basic to life.
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    Have a mom and dad both college grads
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    both teachers
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    both involved in the same
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    kind of ministries that was
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    church
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    and school stuff
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    so inspirational.
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    Pretty much was all around
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    me
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    and even beyond the houses
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    we live in a neighborhood where we were all cousins
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    and we didn't just
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    sing all the time
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    but we acted play
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    football
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    but there was a coach.
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    So the neighborhood had a
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    young football team
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    and four or five girls were pulled
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    to be apart until we got
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    hurt.
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    But life in general was
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    a total inspiration.
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    Did you sing or play an instrument.
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    Well it was hard
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    not to survive in a family where
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    your mom teaches music
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    and your dad sings them
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    Sunday morning moms at the piano
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    playing not to play an instrument.
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    So yes indeed
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    I learned to play an instrument.
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    They tell me that it's you know
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    6 they thought maybe I will be a
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    child star
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    but the teacher
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    a professor at the college has looked
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    at my dad and said
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    I don't think she's going to make it so
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    let's stop the piano lessons
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    and so they
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    stopped. But then
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    when I was about 12
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    between them and
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    mom started to get again
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    I say us because my older sister
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    was interested in taking piano lessons as
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    well.
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    So yes just pause
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    for a moment of silence about
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    the noise and said
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    my folks said OK.
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    A shopkeeper.
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    Here's a quick quick break.
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    Kim
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    go ahead.
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    So you were saying
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    white and brown 12
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    is your mother's China teaching us
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    at the age of 12.
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    Because it came from college
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    and he was
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    a tremendous pianist
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    and vocalist.
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    So my mom said TriMet over
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    again you know at 6
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    she wasn't ready so it was going on
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    and the music
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    book Teaching the fingers to play
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    by John Thompson
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    was very broad.
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    And so I started
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    with always through the book
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    and my cousin said May
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    I call your mom for a minute.
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    So when my mother came back
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    and says as
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    it seems like she's going to do very well
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    so I'm going to start the hymn
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    book today as well.
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    So the end of the lesson he
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    played
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    bringing in the sheaves
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    and the kids seat.
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    And he played
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    it so well up
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    and down the keyboard my mom burst
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    into the room
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    that was Mel
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    and he says no she's not quite there yet.
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    But at the rate she's going
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    you better bring some more music books.
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    And so it was an
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    uphill ride from then
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    on.
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    By the time I got to boarding school
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    which was in my
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    11th year
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    at that time you could graduate from high
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    school at 11
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    and
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    with nothing else to do
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    the piano teacher there just
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    sit me asunder into
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    Bach Beethoven and Brahms
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    and that's when my brothers
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    and sisters looked at me
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    and said oh no
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    that means mom
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    and dad get a baby
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    grand throw that big piano
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    out.
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    But they did not.
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    And beyond that
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    my life became a music world.
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    And that's
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    where I am in terms of
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    the church.
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    Is there any particular song
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    hymn or spiritual
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    that's been put chiclet particularly
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    meaningful to you over the course of
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    your life.
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    Can you share with us some stories of
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    those mothers.
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    You know
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    when I think back you have to go
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    to conferences because
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    my dad was what it's called
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    I was called the Sunday
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    School missionary
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    and his assignment was
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    to help develop many churches
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    in the country.
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    And once he would get a group
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    of people together they would start
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    a Sunday school
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    that would then just call me up instantly
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    and said well
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    let's leave them in a song.
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    And then he would start singing which meant
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    I had to find his key
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    and those was such
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    exciting that it was because the people
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    I don't know if you remember we don't get to
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    hear music they just love
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    it. And then that's when I begin to hear
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    sounds that I'm now writing about
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    it sounded like the early sleeves
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    sort of singing.
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    So being led into situations
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    that my parents to
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    engage music at the very
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    basic core
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    what can I say when
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    but Beethoven and Brahms begin to
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    rule my life.
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    So yeah there's
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    no particular song that comes to mind
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    in terms of
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    inspiration just
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    you name it and I wish it
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    kept playing it by ear.
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    But then I'd have to find a hymnal that had
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    the right key.
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    I don't think it was more exciting than just
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    playing and creating a crowd.
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    So our
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    house our church
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    and even the small
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    gathering places that my dad would start
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    new churches
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    just exciting
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    but had one fallback.
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    I could see that my music created
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    problems for me in that
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    I learned that
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    and notice me now because I've not
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    been at the keyboard since I've stopped
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    teaching in D.C.
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    I've learned that
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    I didn't have to
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    remember what happened at the conferences
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    of what happened anywhere
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    because I was playing
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    and my dad would start singing
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    and I had to find him on the people.
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    So in a way it
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    tempered my
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    life to not want to talk
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    and nobody
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    can believe now that
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    I was not very
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    comfortable speaking in public.
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    And so one
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    Sunday my dad texted me
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    and all the kids would go into a conference
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    to tell what they had done.
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    So they looked at me as the Melbourne
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    not tell your story.
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    It was play the piano daddy.
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    And he said
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    we saw you playing
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    touchable or something.
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    What else happened.
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    And I began to cry in the middle of
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    the church
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    and I learned about
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    the importance of
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    church.
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    The congregation then began
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    to hate me.
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    Come on baby says
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    something.
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    And I would cry.
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    I would say something.
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    I said we will sing a song my
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    dad said and then you
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    played one of the classes.
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    They said I should do that here.
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    So if being a musician
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    hampered me to some extent because
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    it didn't have to use my voice
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    but it worked alright.
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    When I ended up marrying him
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    he preferred that I just
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    helped choirs get started
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    and not say it that
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    way.
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    When did you find your voice.
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    Can you think back when
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    when that transition
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    when did that time.
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    When did you find your voice when
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    when you still spoke
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    through the music but when did you also find
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    your voice. It is a
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    good question.
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    Normally I would take a moment
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    to distinguish
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    between
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    the moments but it was the day
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    that my dad pushed me in church
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    and between my two years
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    I finally wiped my eyes
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    with my one little handkerchief
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    and then said
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    I did do some talking while
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    I was
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    and my daddy ended up
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    five minutes he says yes not baby.
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    You have spoken you know
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    I learned also have
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    to shut up sometimes even
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    with the voice.
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    Do you notice yourself gravitating to
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    different songs through different periods
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    of your life
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    and how so.
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    No it's actually
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    not so much gravitating toward me was
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    whatever was needed.
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    I have served
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    as quite a director in a number
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    of places the first places
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    were in North Carolina where
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    I attended the Presbyterian
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    School. Johnson C.
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    Smith University where
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    word got out that there was a student
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    at eyeteeth Johnson C.
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    Smith who
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    was a musician
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    and I began to be
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    pursued by the churches to
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    be quite director.
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    And even then I was
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    approaching my senior year in
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    college and I was only 17
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    and I had.
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    And so it gave me an opportunity
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    to fill in that time
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    space as I was trying to decide
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    how to merge
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    my newly
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    chosen career as a
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    primary school
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    teacher
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    with music.
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    So the Sundays
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    that I would on Saturdays
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    I'd go to rehearsals
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    and the pastor would have a list
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    of songs that he would want them to learn.
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    They would say to me suggest
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    something that picks up the same
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    thing.
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    And so those
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    instances
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    broadened my perspective
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    with him the first place
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    I had to play even in the Sharpe's
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    but of music
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    in general knowing how to
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    look at a text
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    and know how it would fit
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    with scripture
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    and as I said that happened
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    between 17 and 18 when I
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    finally finished college.
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    But the excitement I think grew because
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    by that time a little reputation
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    about me had gotten around Charlotte.
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    So a number of churches
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    asked me to start teaching piano lessons
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    civil from hymnals
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    choral music
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    but we and Mendelssohn
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    and Brahms was
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    a time to start teaching piano
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    lessons.
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    So with all these things going
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    I think I also begin to feel
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    the power of God pushing me
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    and I would wait
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    and see which direction shall I take
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    this kind
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    of an answer.
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    So
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    fumbled for a long time doing
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    it as well
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    you write in your book in spirit
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    and in truth that you your husband
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    and children would sing together regularly
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    often around a piano
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    and while traveling.
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    Can you tell us about that tradition.
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    Oh I thought everybody was supposed to
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    sing when they travel.
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    It's helped between changing
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    diapers and getting
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    new milk on the way
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    and we didn't really
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    make this very clear.
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    My husband is a pastor was very
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    clear that
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    we would never separate
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    from things at the family.
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    So vacations revival
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    so traveling.
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    After a while I started
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    with the starting to seeing Jim would start a
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    song
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    and the kids would join in.
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    And by the time we got
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    to the place we would
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    find a place to rest
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    not always a hotel because
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    we could not go into hotels in some places.
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    Jim and I would talk about
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    what would life be like
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    if we didn't have music.
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    And
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    I said OK let's imagine a world
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    without music
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    and that means just be quiet so I can take
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    a nap.
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    So
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    those were that was just one instance
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    but I got to the place the kids
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    would have heard new songs
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    especially from a recent
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    gospel arena
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    as they grew up
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    and they would want us to sing
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    sing those songs.
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    And that when I say it that
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    way it forced
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    me to remember that I had to also
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    listen to songs
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    that were not in him.
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    And so the children
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    who led us from familiarity
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    to the things that they
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    like to be
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    on Twinkle Twinkle Little Star
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    broadened our perspective
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    as parents in
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    terms of their leadership
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    in helping us to find that voice
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    that we needed as we traveled.
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    How did that practice fund you as
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    a family. The singing together
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    you know I can say
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    that
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    if it hadn't been music it would have been
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    something because we have we've
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    always been close
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    as a family.
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    I think basically because I grew up
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    there only five children.
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    But the kids in the neighborhood
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    and the neighbors some of the cousins would come.
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    I grew up around
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    them so
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    much so extensively that
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    my assumption was
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    and still is that life
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    functions around
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    a particular to
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    a particular song.
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    And
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    now that they are all involved in music
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    and the grand kids begin to come along
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    they had a different repertoire
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    and this was interesting because
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    my husband and I realized that
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    we were little stubborn about what we thought
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    they should know
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    as churchgoing children
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    and the things that they were hearing on the radio.
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    And if you spent time
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    with stop them in midair you cannot sing.
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    They still say this
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    and we realize that this was
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    the dividing point between
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    mom dad
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    and the three children.
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    We just had three.
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    And so
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    part of that growth
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    myth sending
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    our daughter. We only have one daughter
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    to piano teacher
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    Zilberman we're not interested in
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    teaching Goldfinger's fingers to play they wanted to
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    play football.
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    So Cheryl became the
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    musician in the hall
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    and she was really
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    more interested in art
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    or some of the
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    classical musicians that I didn't
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    have to play along the
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    way.
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    So we found ourselves
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    as a family
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    allowing her leadership
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    in determining not only
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    what we sang
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    but what we listened to as we travel.
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    Unfortunately once she picked
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    up a violin she
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    lost to me in terms of repertoire
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    and so
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    I found myself moving more
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    and more to her tune
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    to her places her recitals
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    and it was not until
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    I began teaching
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    in the seminary that I
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    that we reclaim our heritage
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    as a musical family
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    and that was an interesting transition.
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    Q When I trained
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    as a transition was that
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    by this time music
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    and theological seminaries
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    had transitioned
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    to more
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    of a gospel.
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    Gospel music was pretty much taken over
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    and I really was not prepared for
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    accompanying
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    teaching.
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    So thank
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    God for some moments in the middle of a
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    chapel service at Interdenominational
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    Theological Center.
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    I was conducting
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    one of the five gospel songs
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    that I knew as
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    a student in the choir
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    contralto tremendous
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    voice realize
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    that I was getting
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    lost in terms of conducting
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    and she simply
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    stepped up to me
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    and saying move out of the way
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    and we'll take over.
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    So that excitement
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    at the center was
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    watched this classical musician
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    move out of the way
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    and gone
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    but the movement did not take
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    us too far from each other because I really
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    wanted them to move on to the
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    seminary students to
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    grow in the area of
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    classical music
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    classical choral music because
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    the musicians that I was meeting along
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    the way at seminary level
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    were classical musicians.
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    So
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    I learned that you
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    find one
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    or two things that
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    a gospel led the
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    seminary choir
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    will take you
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    but will not force you there.
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    So Afghanistan as a
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    walking as if I were going to have
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    to force them by
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    this time. Guess what.
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    We had students from Africa
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    and Spanish
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    speaking cultures Puerto Rico
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    and another
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    dimension
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    of musical sound began to
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    take over
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    and that broadened
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    my perspective
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    which forced me to help broaden the
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    seminary students
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    perspective.
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    It's really kind of exciting because
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    at the helm of this was God's
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    pushing me to say yes when the committee
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    came along and said we
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    want you to be chair of a committee that
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    you need a break
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    to walk Walker you need
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    to drink I do not want to.
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    So I'm fine thank you.
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    Just make sure you make sure you're
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    OK.
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    How do you think.
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    OK so going back to your book
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    in spirit and truth that the family sang
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    together.
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    How do you think it let you reflect
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    or respond to some of the things you
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    are experiencing in life.
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    Writing period became another
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    expansion area for me
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    in general
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    and
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    growth in music
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    and doing research
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    for other schools
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    that I was
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    called to do it in
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    academic settings
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    of liturgy
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    and music gatherings
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    and
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    Montreat.
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    If this is on
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    a particular kind of music
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    forced me into
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    deep then I guess the word deepend
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    should undergird everything
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    that I'm saying.
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    Each stage of movement
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    provided a depth
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    of entry sometimes they fall into.
  • speaker
    Suddenly as I did in seminary when
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    the gospel music arena took
  • speaker
    over and I'm conducting
  • speaker
    it all I can do is move
  • speaker
    with the flow and the student walks up
  • speaker
    and says
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    and sings I'm now in charge
  • speaker
    and beginning to write about
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    it.
  • speaker
    If I'm in the middle of the writing right
  • speaker
    at this moment
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    and
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    it's about a subject I've always
  • speaker
    wanted to get into that
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    had to do with the history the evolution
  • speaker
    of African-American gospel music I
  • speaker
    growing up in the south know for
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    a fact that the roots
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    are more located
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    in the south
  • speaker
    of the Southern preaching style
  • speaker
    of black ministers
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    and so
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    introducing that idea has
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    sent me into more books
  • speaker
    and I really wanted to get into.
  • speaker
    But it's astounding
  • speaker
    the fact that we have left
  • speaker
    a lot of people did not go there.
  • speaker
    You know this is not good music
  • speaker
    but when you talk about gospel music now
  • speaker
    and look at what's going on
  • speaker
    you can trace it back quickly
  • speaker
    to the 18th rather than
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    the 20th pre 20th centuries.
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    So
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    in spirit and in truth was one of
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    the foundational places
  • speaker
    as I read what I had written
  • speaker
    about gospel music at one
  • speaker
    point and now looking through
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    the lens of
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    Southern black
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    preachers whose
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    style
  • speaker
    incidentally they
  • speaker
    call for a call
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    and response
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    sort of tradition.
  • speaker
    So I must confess
  • speaker
    that writing
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    has brought my perspective
  • speaker
    and even
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    say this with my kids watching
  • speaker
    me my computer practically every
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    night
  • speaker
    moving into areas
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    that I feel my dad is
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    pushing me into.
  • speaker
    You know you waited
  • speaker
    till you were 12 to become this musician
  • speaker
    dad would say so
  • speaker
    go for it.
  • speaker
    So who knows what the next
  • speaker
    15 or 20 years will be in terms
  • speaker
    of that musical
  • speaker
    style.
  • speaker
    Any truth incidentally
  • speaker
    was the last book that I was
  • speaker
    working on
  • speaker
    before my husband transitioned
  • speaker
    and googling hospital.
  • speaker
    It's been a lot of time there.
  • speaker
    Then he looked at me and said
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    I don't see you
  • speaker
    with any yellow pad
  • speaker
    writing that book needs
  • speaker
    to get into Westminster John
  • speaker
    Knox Press hand.
  • speaker
    Soon as you get that he would doze
  • speaker
    back to sleep.
  • speaker
    I would sneak out
  • speaker
    and write but no
  • speaker
    one knew what was going on
  • speaker
    with him I could feel the distance
  • speaker
    thing of
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    my writing
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    with wanting to
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    help him in this transition.
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    So even
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    in the midst of all of this I was doing workshops
  • speaker
    all over the country.
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    I come back and he looked at me
  • speaker
    and said Have you
  • speaker
    been.
  • speaker
    And I was gathering data right
  • speaker
    here.
  • speaker
    So yes
  • speaker
    music has been foundational in
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    terms of
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    movement and acceptance of
  • speaker
    life as it converges
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    upon
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    Khalef about how you went into
  • speaker
    the study of African-American worship
  • speaker
    music.
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    What inspired
  • speaker
    inspiration came from being
  • speaker
    called the president
  • speaker
    of the theological seminary here in Atlanta
  • speaker
    which is interdenominational
  • speaker
    theological center.
  • speaker
    Was there a United Methodist pastor.
  • speaker
    And because we had so much excitement
  • speaker
    in this church
  • speaker
    including the fact that after the service
  • speaker
    after the sermon the kids would go to Sunday
  • speaker
    school.
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    The adults who make circles
  • speaker
    among these chairs that are here
  • speaker
    and we would just talk about how we were going
  • speaker
    to live through the
  • speaker
    week with the message.
  • speaker
    Jim was the pastor
  • speaker
    and he would move from group to group.
  • speaker
    Sometimes he would get into very heated
  • speaker
    conversations.
  • speaker
    So one of the graduates
  • speaker
    with the doctorate already going up
  • speaker
    to ITC and said I need to take a course
  • speaker
    in Theology.
  • speaker
    My pastor Jim Carson is forcing
  • speaker
    me to look again
  • speaker
    at what theology means when
  • speaker
    it comes to worship.
  • speaker
    And so
  • speaker
    he said because of your
  • speaker
    past and Jonas's of
  • speaker
    those cases the roots of one of the things
  • speaker
    that I'm going to go to church.
  • speaker
    So Zali came to church we had
  • speaker
    amphitheater all the whole
  • speaker
    church was a fire.
  • speaker
    The neighbors were everywhere.
  • speaker
    And after church came to me
  • speaker
    and handed me a card
  • speaker
    and say your contract
  • speaker
    is on my desk.
  • speaker
    Come over and help us learn how
  • speaker
    to teach worship.
  • speaker
    And I said to myself sure
  • speaker
    without having had a course
  • speaker
    academic course.
  • speaker
    So when I got to ITC
  • speaker
    just to do the music
  • speaker
    with it you know
  • speaker
    whatever my title was had to do
  • speaker
    with music.
  • speaker
    And in the middle of one of the class sessions
  • speaker
    the professor of worship
  • speaker
    dropped dead just
  • speaker
    right from the students
  • speaker
    and this too.
  • speaker
    And that evening
  • speaker
    my husband after he got over the shock
  • speaker
    and.
  • speaker
    He was dean
  • speaker
    of John Smith seminary
  • speaker
    and said to me I'm
  • speaker
    going to put your name forward because you're the only
  • speaker
    one I see who
  • speaker
    is willing to lift your experience
  • speaker
    with the Presbyterian reformed
  • speaker
    scholars
  • speaker
    and worship because
  • speaker
    I'm going to recommend you to teach the course
  • speaker
    yes.
  • speaker
    OK.
  • speaker
    We'll see how it works.
  • speaker
    First day it didn't work because the gentleman
  • speaker
    in the class were happy to see a woman
  • speaker
    teaching
  • speaker
    this Mr. class.
  • speaker
    Call my husband I can't do this.
  • speaker
    So he went in the next day
  • speaker
    with me and said to the students
  • speaker
    you've got to dig this lady because
  • speaker
    I don't know enough about worship.
  • speaker
    I'm a preacher
  • speaker
    and academician
  • speaker
    so once I became full time foot
  • speaker
    worship professor
  • speaker
    I had to start looking African-American
  • speaker
    well African because we
  • speaker
    are a large number of African students they would say
  • speaker
    to me after class
  • speaker
    there was a point in what you were doing
  • speaker
    that we could have told you how that
  • speaker
    happened in Africa
  • speaker
    and it's still the same in America.
  • speaker
    OK. By that time we were traveling
  • speaker
    in and out of Africa.
  • speaker
    So my focus
  • speaker
    on Africa
  • speaker
    and African-American Christians
  • speaker
    just blossomed forth
  • speaker
    and every year we will go in that this
  • speaker
    time to
  • speaker
    East Africa
  • speaker
    and gave
  • speaker
    us an opportunity
  • speaker
    to test contd
  • speaker
    continuum from Africa
  • speaker
    through the slave period
  • speaker
    into African-American music
  • speaker
    and worship sure
  • speaker
    that growth has been phenomenal.
  • speaker
    It still is still on
  • speaker
    because even as I was
  • speaker
    writing last night about
  • speaker
    something that happens in worship
  • speaker
    that we saw in Africa
  • speaker
    I had to go through books to find where
  • speaker
    I find the origin of these
  • speaker
    things.
  • speaker
    So that has become
  • speaker
    explosive in terms of
  • speaker
    my interest in making
  • speaker
    sure this gets written
  • speaker
    because
  • speaker
    I think we will lose our African heritage
  • speaker
    if we didn't get caught up in the
  • speaker
    worship traditions that
  • speaker
    really have continued
  • speaker
    in American churches.
  • speaker
    If you ever been to would like to ask
  • speaker
    you this would be
  • speaker
    interesting if you would go to an African American
  • speaker
    church and see
  • speaker
    whether you could enjoy
  • speaker
    and appreciate
  • speaker
    some of things that are happening
  • speaker
    in worship which are really continuation
  • speaker
    of Africa
  • speaker
    in this country.
  • speaker
    I would definitely enjoy
  • speaker
    you would love to help
  • speaker
    you with.
  • speaker
    And I would be middle
  • speaker
    little the situation
  • speaker
    in Africa
  • speaker
    and our leader was to my husband to say
  • speaker
    Does this sound for me.
  • speaker
    Does that sound familiar.
  • speaker
    Because what we learn we've learned that a lot of
  • speaker
    the spirituals of course
  • speaker
    are continuations
  • speaker
    of African traditions not from the
  • speaker
    east coast as much as from the
  • speaker
    West
  • speaker
    but
  • speaker
    there's still a lot
  • speaker
    that needs to be learned
  • speaker
    and taught to
  • speaker
    seminarians
  • speaker
    and congregations about
  • speaker
    continue
  • speaker
    you were active around a number of
  • speaker
    national and international social
  • speaker
    issues most notably
  • speaker
    that of civil of civil rights
  • speaker
    in the mid 20th century.
  • speaker
    Could you describe your involvement.
  • speaker
    How did you become active
  • speaker
    and how would you describe your
  • speaker
    role and what you
  • speaker
    need to definitely talk about fight.
  • speaker
    You know how did you participate in the civil
  • speaker
    rights.
  • speaker
    Thanks for that question because
  • speaker
    being able to talk about that
  • speaker
    is not as everyday
  • speaker
    present as it was when my husband
  • speaker
    lived.
  • speaker
    And must says something about our relationship
  • speaker
    in terms of
  • speaker
    knowing who we were
  • speaker
    to be in God's
  • speaker
    presence.
  • speaker
    We met in college
  • speaker
    and
  • speaker
    he had arrived for
  • speaker
    two years
  • speaker
    exposure to
  • speaker
    Presbyterianism.
  • speaker
    All of a sudden he became Catholic
  • speaker
    Presbyterian.
  • speaker
    So even when we went
  • speaker
    to my dad
  • speaker
    my mom passed
  • speaker
    and to ask his permission
  • speaker
    to get married.
  • speaker
    Him with fear
  • speaker
    and trembling because my dad was a
  • speaker
    pretty tough father
  • speaker
    with four girls
  • speaker
    and one boy.
  • speaker
    And that's where we learned
  • speaker
    now it actually is being
  • speaker
    very very tight.
  • speaker
    So one of the days that we were
  • speaker
    at home visiting dad
  • speaker
    and he was to pop the question every
  • speaker
    day even as he committed he
  • speaker
    said no it couldn't get through to him this time
  • speaker
    this particular day my dad said to have come
  • speaker
    right with me.
  • speaker
    And as he began the ride to the country
  • speaker
    I mean nothing but hills
  • speaker
    and trees and
  • speaker
    shack houses on the way
  • speaker
    my dad would say to my husband
  • speaker
    you need to see I never grew up.
  • speaker
    Before you even consider marriage.
  • speaker
    And so Jim said Well
  • speaker
    this is pretty hot.
  • speaker
    I love the country.
  • speaker
    And he said
  • speaker
    you need to be clear about how I never
  • speaker
    grew up so that you can
  • speaker
    understand the country so you can
  • speaker
    understand human history
  • speaker
    and so that you could understand marriage.
  • speaker
    And by the time he got back he had had
  • speaker
    several opportunities
  • speaker
    to see a dead man.
  • speaker
    I won't cite them all
  • speaker
    but one had to do with the passing
  • speaker
    service stations that my husband really needed
  • speaker
    to stop at the service station that
  • speaker
    he did not know that
  • speaker
    African-Americans could not go
  • speaker
    to the restrooms and service stations.
  • speaker
    So when we returned to Spartanburg
  • speaker
    from parents left
  • speaker
    dad and his wife
  • speaker
    I said with a daddy saying
  • speaker
    My husband land he
  • speaker
    chuckles
  • speaker
    and I said Well aren't you going to tell me
  • speaker
    we're going to get married in a show for
  • speaker
    another. Or what's going on.
  • speaker
    And that's when he said until Mrs.
  • speaker
    your dad told me more about
  • speaker
    you
  • speaker
    and your growing up years
  • speaker
    and just writing
  • speaker
    that he did it in words.
  • speaker
    He loved to talk but he talked about the church because he was
  • speaker
    a Sunday school missionary for the Presbyterians
  • speaker
    and then
  • speaker
    he said I might ask him one more time because
  • speaker
    we want to get married next year at commencement
  • speaker
    because that's where my mom is coming
  • speaker
    and will it be cheaper for us to have
  • speaker
    a wedding right on the campus.
  • speaker
    So that
  • speaker
    gave us permission only saying that that member
  • speaker
    will only be 18.
  • speaker
    And I was hoping she'd
  • speaker
    gone to grad school at Howard University
  • speaker
    and become a concert pianist.
  • speaker
    But let me see.
  • speaker
    I guess she'd make a pretty good
  • speaker
    you would you going to be a preacher
  • speaker
    to make a pretty good picture as.
  • speaker
    So we went back
  • speaker
    to campus all excited about
  • speaker
    our wedding which would be on baccalaureate
  • speaker
    Sunday at Johnson C.
  • speaker
    Smith University
  • speaker
    and the time between that
  • speaker
    and the time we walked
  • speaker
    down the aisle at the University Church
  • speaker
    was talking about
  • speaker
    what is it going to be like
  • speaker
    with a wife
  • speaker
    a musician wife
  • speaker
    and a father who I'm sure at that
  • speaker
    age will live forever
  • speaker
    who will still be fathering
  • speaker
    you.
  • speaker
    And I said Well
  • speaker
    I'll tell you one thing I learned a lot from my
  • speaker
    dad
  • speaker
    and that is the man
  • speaker
    in the house is the boss.
  • speaker
    And so you're finally catering
  • speaker
    to whatever you want to do your leadership.
  • speaker
    Who would know that as soon as we
  • speaker
    were married first child
  • speaker
    and move to Rocky Mount North Carolina
  • speaker
    that we would be thrust
  • speaker
    immediately into
  • speaker
    racism.
  • speaker
    The year was 1955.
  • speaker
    Not too long ago
  • speaker
    yet.
  • speaker
    Martin King was already active.
  • speaker
    And when we were in Charlotte we were
  • speaker
    with the civil rights
  • speaker
    the sit ins where the college
  • speaker
    level we would sit in
  • speaker
    restaurants that would not serve
  • speaker
    us
  • speaker
    but
  • speaker
    we didn't walk out
  • speaker
    sometimes until the end of the day.
  • speaker
    And the
  • speaker
    people at Wal-Mart walk
  • speaker
    Walgreens or whatever we would try to
  • speaker
    eat say well
  • speaker
    they would laugh when we left
  • speaker
    because in the middle of that
  • speaker
    we would burst into speaking
  • speaker
    like.
  • speaker
    Most of us were in the choir
  • speaker
    and we sing a lot of songs in Latin
  • speaker
    and we would just use that language
  • speaker
    and they would come by
  • speaker
    and look at us and say you know they're not even
  • speaker
    Americans are all
  • speaker
    around. Say what is that.
  • speaker
    So in came out when we arrived
  • speaker
    in Jim's first assignments
  • speaker
    for himself was to bring
  • speaker
    kids from Philadelphia
  • speaker
    and Pittsburgh to rocking
  • speaker
    out to help paint
  • speaker
    a church in the country
  • speaker
    and Elm City.
  • speaker
    And so he found himself having
  • speaker
    to
  • speaker
    ask the man he went to the man.
  • speaker
    I mean he was very bold
  • speaker
    and brave.
  • speaker
    It was a large guy.
  • speaker
    So when he walked in everybody would come sit down
  • speaker
    and not get in his way
  • speaker
    and he simply said I just want your permission
  • speaker
    to bring white students into
  • speaker
    the city.
  • speaker
    They will be living with the three
  • speaker
    black families
  • speaker
    and we're not here for
  • speaker
    anything. They're just going to paint the church.
  • speaker
    And so in the meantime I was going to
  • speaker
    grad school in Chapel Hill
  • speaker
    but the night
  • speaker
    that the Klan came
  • speaker
    to run the kids out
  • speaker
    hit the paper
  • speaker
    and I went back to class if you see
  • speaker
    Chapel Hill
  • speaker
    My professor called Roll Call My
  • speaker
    Name and reiterated
  • speaker
    my name and I looked up
  • speaker
    and said some of the.
  • speaker
    And at the end of the roll call
  • speaker
    this is a need to see you.
  • speaker
    Well that's when fear struck
  • speaker
    and it was justifiable
  • speaker
    fear because the class
  • speaker
    left so it left
  • speaker
    the teacher
  • speaker
    and me in the room
  • speaker
    and he kept wanting to make sure he
  • speaker
    would not start this discussion
  • speaker
    with the students in the room.
  • speaker
    And when he asked
  • speaker
    he says the main costume is all of that
  • speaker
    in North Carolina headlines.
  • speaker
    Do you happen to know this James costume.
  • speaker
    He said it with such as
  • speaker
    he asked a question so sternly
  • speaker
    and Tyrian purple
  • speaker
    as he asked it and I boldly
  • speaker
    faced him and says James Custer is
  • speaker
    my husband.
  • speaker
    And at that moment
  • speaker
    we're left
  • speaker
    because I could feel the class returning
  • speaker
    and as they all
  • speaker
    found that same sense they set out
  • speaker
    and
  • speaker
    one of the students said we want to hear the story.
  • speaker
    So I told
  • speaker
    him how we he
  • speaker
    was in the headlines.
  • speaker
    We had to sing the students back home
  • speaker
    because they were burning across
  • speaker
    the black church yard
  • speaker
    and the members of the congregation who
  • speaker
    had kept the white kids were
  • speaker
    very disturbed.
  • speaker
    So they said
  • speaker
    You do know that the Klan has
  • speaker
    ordered
  • speaker
    this college to
  • speaker
    brace itself for a killing.
  • speaker
    I simply said who's going to get killed.
  • speaker
    This is probably you.
  • speaker
    You're the only black in the music department.
  • speaker
    And I said
  • speaker
    I really shrug my shoulders
  • speaker
    and that's when the professor stood
  • speaker
    with stood in front of me was Vertov
  • speaker
    and he came toward me.
  • speaker
    I stood up
  • speaker
    and said to myself God
  • speaker
    what is this going to be
  • speaker
    the end of my life.
  • speaker
    And he reached toward me
  • speaker
    both hands
  • speaker
    and grabbed my hand
  • speaker
    and says Please tell your husband that I am a member
  • speaker
    of the NAACP
  • speaker
    and would like him to know that
  • speaker
    I will come join him whenever
  • speaker
    he needs me.
  • speaker
    And the whole room then converged
  • speaker
    upon me
  • speaker
    with aplomb and say
  • speaker
    you don't know that we stayed at
  • speaker
    the library until you leave at
  • speaker
    night because somebody
  • speaker
    said don't tell her.
  • speaker
    Well the word is that you're going
  • speaker
    to get killed and we just kind of won't be there
  • speaker
    and see it after that.
  • speaker
    And that's not what they meant
  • speaker
    of course
  • speaker
    but that's when confidence
  • speaker
    in God and students who have been
  • speaker
    protecting me for three weeks
  • speaker
    and knowing that even when I left
  • speaker
    Chapel Hill the danger would be between
  • speaker
    Chapel Hill and Rocky Mountain.
  • speaker
    But during that time as the Lord would have
  • speaker
    it only
  • speaker
    the mandibles going on
  • speaker
    because
  • speaker
    of the times I got home my husband looks at me very
  • speaker
    sternly and said they
  • speaker
    almost killed our oldest son.
  • speaker
    My question was
  • speaker
    how could they almost kill him said
  • speaker
    while he was crossing the street
  • speaker
    and this car had been sitting there
  • speaker
    watching
  • speaker
    and took out after it
  • speaker
    and except that he could jump pretty
  • speaker
    high.
  • speaker
    He could get killed.
  • speaker
    So I said okay
  • speaker
    now day what happened in Chapel Hill
  • speaker
    not what would happen there.
  • speaker
    And that's when we set out on my
  • speaker
    way
  • speaker
    with three children.
  • speaker
    We'd be in trouble if both of us
  • speaker
    got killed so we got to stop
  • speaker
    one of us from getting killed.
  • speaker
    And that's what I picked
  • speaker
    up the phone and call my stepmother.
  • speaker
    But dad had died
  • speaker
    and had to live with it.
  • speaker
    I have one more
  • speaker
    months at Chapel Hill
  • speaker
    before my children get killed.
  • speaker
    And by that time she screamed
  • speaker
    and just
  • speaker
    fussed at me
  • speaker
    for allowing
  • speaker
    this kind of tension to take it
  • speaker
    to evolve in the house.
  • speaker
    And so she said it's brain the
  • speaker
    children or at least they will
  • speaker
    survive and I said mom one
  • speaker
    of us is going to survive.
  • speaker
    So that one of us at least can help raise the children.
  • speaker
    And
  • speaker
    as you can see from my son
  • speaker
    who's there is nobody got killed
  • speaker
    but a lot happened
  • speaker
    Jim himself leading the civil rights
  • speaker
    movement in that area
  • speaker
    with ministers who knew Martin
  • speaker
    personally
  • speaker
    and we would sneak
  • speaker
    Martin Luther King
  • speaker
    into town.
  • speaker
    To lead
  • speaker
    demonstrations
  • speaker
    that is what we really can kill.
  • speaker
    And I will not prolong this
  • speaker
    but it is in my heart right
  • speaker
    now as I
  • speaker
    knew I have to go talk to Christine.
  • speaker
    His sister
  • speaker
    presold
  • speaker
    during that time there
  • speaker
    with the undertaker the African-American
  • speaker
    undertaker will take his fleet of
  • speaker
    cars to Raleigh
  • speaker
    assuming to pick up her body.
  • speaker
    Nobody would pay them any attention that
  • speaker
    would stick Martin Luther King
  • speaker
    into one of those cars.
  • speaker
    And with this huge delegation
  • speaker
    looking like a funeral
  • speaker
    we would drive into Rackemann.
  • speaker
    I never knew where Martin stayed.
  • speaker
    All I knew was the importance of music
  • speaker
    because by that time we have
  • speaker
    for the four
  • speaker
    or five years we had a city
  • speaker
    choir and I was a accompanist for it
  • speaker
    and this was going to be our first time
  • speaker
    bringing Martin Luther King into
  • speaker
    an arena heavily
  • speaker
    guarded by blacks
  • speaker
    who learned to handle Gonzales
  • speaker
    sudden cuts. Police would not get involved
  • speaker
    and
  • speaker
    Jim said to me.
  • speaker
    All right. I can't tell you where Martin
  • speaker
    is. I can't even tell you when he's
  • speaker
    gonna arrive arrive
  • speaker
    but I won't be upfront.
  • speaker
    You know we've got it so he's carefully guarded
  • speaker
    and we want you to start
  • speaker
    in flummoxes
  • speaker
    at the point that we're walking.
  • speaker
    And
  • speaker
    so I said we're going to do it in English.
  • speaker
    Let me just do a lab
  • speaker
    about what you're saying about anyway.
  • speaker
    So
  • speaker
    oh I said How will I know that.
  • speaker
    MARTIN Is there.
  • speaker
    He said
  • speaker
    and I'll say something
  • speaker
    until a guy that say something about BlackBerry
  • speaker
    pie
  • speaker
    and the message we've been
  • speaker
    we've been singing I guess we've been in Howard
  • speaker
    singing and the people gathering.
  • speaker
    We were all scared
  • speaker
    and
  • speaker
    Balitang until we walked up
  • speaker
    and he said you said
  • speaker
    he was black we're bad.
  • speaker
    That meant Martin was on the way.
  • speaker
    So
  • speaker
    I got word to that to the director
  • speaker
    and we started for models
  • speaker
    and with all of the beautiful
  • speaker
    music from this huge choir
  • speaker
    and the delegation of gentlemen.
  • speaker
    And they could not see that Martin was in the
  • speaker
    middle of the delegation.
  • speaker
    We got Martin so that he was on the platform
  • speaker
    and he
  • speaker
    gave his all of his speeches.
  • speaker
    And thanks Rocky Mount for being one of the
  • speaker
    far eastern cities
  • speaker
    to take seriously the civil rights movement.
  • speaker
    So into that everybody is
  • speaker
    standing I mean it was I was crying.
  • speaker
    And
  • speaker
    all I knew was when I got to the home
  • speaker
    of the undertaker that was Martin
  • speaker
    and I have a picture of my wallet.
  • speaker
    He may want to come to my house.
  • speaker
    Martin was sitting
  • speaker
    with us having dinner teased
  • speaker
    because his wife of course was a singer
  • speaker
    and he says great about what you hear from
  • speaker
    her. She would like to come
  • speaker
    and give a concert.
  • speaker
    So that was one
  • speaker
    of the moments that there are many
  • speaker
    more because we even
  • speaker
    forced
  • speaker
    two of our children into an
  • speaker
    interview to school
  • speaker
    that was the first
  • speaker
    integration
  • speaker
    of an elementary school
  • speaker
    east coast of North Carolina.
  • speaker
    And the
  • speaker
    test case was Craig
  • speaker
    Coston the gentleman you just
  • speaker
    met the baby is us
  • speaker
    if he was the baby there
  • speaker
    versus the city of Rocky Mount
  • speaker
    to get him into this white school.
  • speaker
    And we had a lot of you who
  • speaker
    don't so much of this he simply said to us
  • speaker
    let me see the young man at least an
  • speaker
    hour before
  • speaker
    Craig was 6 years old.
  • speaker
    I was six
  • speaker
    and my
  • speaker
    husband looked at him he says this is a tough
  • speaker
    character. So can I get
  • speaker
    in there about an hour
  • speaker
    and a half. Because
  • speaker
    the thing we want you to do is to just
  • speaker
    tell him not to talk.
  • speaker
    You do the talking
  • speaker
    because if the judge asks submitted thing
  • speaker
    he will say I don't want to do this.
  • speaker
    I will go to my black school.
  • speaker
    So on
  • speaker
    the case that day
  • speaker
    and that was that open
  • speaker
    enrollment to schools in to North Carolina.
  • speaker
    And I could give those kind of
  • speaker
    moments. But in the process of going through that
  • speaker
    Juman I realize the importance
  • speaker
    of husband
  • speaker
    and wife being
  • speaker
    very clear that
  • speaker
    marriage was a mutual affair
  • speaker
    and I that's why it was
  • speaker
    so close to our children.
  • speaker
    Children have to take that because
  • speaker
    we had they had to be used.
  • speaker
    I'm going to get the kids
  • speaker
    at the end of the season when the
  • speaker
    clan stop
  • speaker
    bothering us.
  • speaker
    We went to get our kids in
  • speaker
    Spartanburg South Carolina
  • speaker
    and my stepmother who was very
  • speaker
    interesting to me had a child at home that had
  • speaker
    such protection.
  • speaker
    The children she gave us a lecture before
  • speaker
    we even let us sit down
  • speaker
    and her lecture was
  • speaker
    don't let these children have to face this
  • speaker
    kind of stuff.
  • speaker
    What you and Jim need to do a
  • speaker
    lot of love is you can have a look
  • speaker
    at each other and yes mother.
  • speaker
    Yes mother yes
  • speaker
    mother
  • speaker
    and
  • speaker
    we hear her to a large extent
  • speaker
    but
  • speaker
    getting into these moments as
  • speaker
    they got started this by talking about
  • speaker
    the importance of our Jim
  • speaker
    and my relationship it was
  • speaker
    important for each of us to
  • speaker
    know
  • speaker
    that
  • speaker
    helping each other along the way
  • speaker
    as a team would
  • speaker
    be our basic contribution to
  • speaker
    that church
  • speaker
    or any other church.
  • speaker
    And that was
  • speaker
    before he ran for moderator.
  • speaker
    So long story
  • speaker
    but it's it's my story my civil
  • speaker
    rights story for the day because that
  • speaker
    because it involves the children.
  • speaker
    It's one of our peak moments
  • speaker
    when we move to Atlanta
  • speaker
    and we never knew
  • speaker
    when Dr.
  • speaker
    King would be either in the
  • speaker
    House or the house we were visiting.
  • speaker
    And again those were dangerous times.
  • speaker
    But
  • speaker
    the only time I saw the fear
  • speaker
    in all of this and my husband
  • speaker
    was when
  • speaker
    there was a fire in one of the
  • speaker
    neighborhoods.
  • speaker
    And Jim and all those who were leading the movement
  • speaker
    were dressed
  • speaker
    and he in the middle of all of that
  • speaker
    almost lost his life.
  • speaker
    You know what when I was about to throw Malakoff
  • speaker
    cocktail.
  • speaker
    And Jim bravely
  • speaker
    grabbed her arm
  • speaker
    and pleaded
  • speaker
    with her not to
  • speaker
    do this about
  • speaker
    the young woman.
  • speaker
    First of all called
  • speaker
    it what he wanted to call him
  • speaker
    and said hey arrived here
  • speaker
    with a towel
  • speaker
    and a white shirt.
  • speaker
    You go tell me.
  • speaker
    So once she let him go
  • speaker
    and he found a path
  • speaker
    he came home.
  • speaker
    And when he opened the door
  • speaker
    I don't think I'd ever see this
  • speaker
    but Jim was as white as a sheet.
  • speaker
    And he just stood there
  • speaker
    and just looked at me
  • speaker
    and then finally embraced me
  • speaker
    and said you almost
  • speaker
    got killed.
  • speaker
    He said
  • speaker
    I locked the door because I'm not sure that
  • speaker
    lady is still
  • speaker
    running after me
  • speaker
    and if I get killed because a black
  • speaker
    woman would have killed me if
  • speaker
    it was only two days later that we could laugh
  • speaker
    because those were taken moments.
  • speaker
    But I don't think either of us.
  • speaker
    I know that neither
  • speaker
    of us would have not
  • speaker
    been as actively
  • speaker
    participants in the movement.
  • speaker
    If we had not
  • speaker
    canceled scenes you
  • speaker
    sent what
  • speaker
    two days or
  • speaker
    so soon may.
  • speaker
    Thank
  • speaker
    you. That's it.
  • speaker
    Well you know I to while
  • speaker
    the importance of the community.
  • speaker
    It was not just James
  • speaker
    that fight.
  • speaker
    This was a fight in which we had
  • speaker
    deliberately
  • speaker
    thrust ourselves.
  • speaker
    And then when we came to Atlanta
  • speaker
    one of the reasons he accepted his position
  • speaker
    here that may be at some point I
  • speaker
    will share how we got to this
  • speaker
    huge
  • speaker
    empire amphitheater
  • speaker
    type congregation
  • speaker
    again.
  • speaker
    Because she was raised in Omaha Nebraska.
  • speaker
    Not familiar with fear
  • speaker
    and danger.
  • speaker
    I think it was during his Catholic days when
  • speaker
    he saw
  • speaker
    so much power in the
  • speaker
    Catholic robe that
  • speaker
    the garb was more important
  • speaker
    to him than it really would
  • speaker
    put he found out that he would similar that
  • speaker
    it's it's more than what you wear.
  • speaker
    It's you know the good
  • speaker
    you bring from God
  • speaker
    back to ministry
  • speaker
    and ministry is a communal
  • speaker
    affair.
  • speaker
    And I do that
  • speaker
    because music is what is
  • speaker
    a communal affair.
  • speaker
    So life with
  • speaker
    Presbyterian minister all that
  • speaker
    in with the
  • speaker
    by the time we started to this
  • speaker
    building he knew
  • speaker
    that
  • speaker
    his ministry would be presbyterian
  • speaker
    and that Catholic
  • speaker
    Church has meaning for
  • speaker
    both of us because I'm
  • speaker
    the fourth generation
  • speaker
    Presbyterians and I have great grandson
  • speaker
    there is a second generation
  • speaker
    of Presbyterians
  • speaker
    in my household that
  • speaker
    even in Chipps absence through death
  • speaker
    he would rejoice in knowing that
  • speaker
    all of them so far have been baptized
  • speaker
    in this church
  • speaker
    and they may not
  • speaker
    but some of them live in other places.
  • speaker
    But being
  • speaker
    Presbyterian has been very meaningful
  • speaker
    said
  • speaker
    no reason
  • speaker
    to be.
  • speaker
    Oh no.
  • speaker
    So why me.
  • speaker
    You don't need to be.
  • speaker
    Oh my gosh.
  • speaker
    When you're with us now
  • speaker
    can see if
  • speaker
    I can put
  • speaker
    loops tapped
  • speaker
    him there he is
  • speaker
    the
  • speaker
    I don't know
  • speaker
    why.
  • speaker
    I don't know.
  • speaker
    I'm not
  • speaker
    killing
  • speaker
    thanks
  • speaker
    to give me
  • speaker
    the.
  • speaker
    I think he's at
  • speaker
    least
  • speaker
    to squirm.
  • speaker
    I don't want to hear
  • speaker
    this. You
  • speaker
    know bulletins from Sunday
  • speaker
    people
  • speaker
    work
  • speaker
    recording
  • speaker
    in the morning.
Details
Title

Melva Costen unedited Living History interview, part 1.

Description

Melva Costen, wife of former general assembly moderator James Costen, discusses her musical life inside and outside the Presbyterian church, and her family's involvement in the Civil Rights movement.

Creator

Costen, Melva Wilson, 1933- (interviewee)

Date

2013

Type of resource

moving image

Genre

interviews
oral histories

Form

motion pictures
video recordings
born digital

Extent

1.72 GB (1 MOV file)

Language

English

Subject names

Costen, Melva Wilson, 1933-

Topics

African American civil rights workers.
Race relations--Religious aspects--Christianity.
Civil rights--Religious aspects.

Geographic subjects

North and Central America--United States

Rights status

IN COPYRIGHT; http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/

Physical location

; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA

Identifier (local)

20131007205731

PID (Persistent Identifier)

islandora:124561

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