This is September 30, 2008. And Josie Snyder. And I'm Mary Elizabeth Moore are conducting the interview. Josie is administrator of the Oral History Project and I'm the director of it, I guess. Melva Costen will introduce her own life as she tells her story. But there are a couple of things we'd like to know you to know about her in advance. One is that she is the Helmar Emil Nielson Professor of Worship and the Arts at ITC Interdenominational Theological Center. Or she was until you retired just recently.

Yes.

And she also taught worship and music at Yale Divinity School and has written quite a lot on African American Christian worship. In fact, she has a book by that very name.

Absolutely. And the last one and I did not mention it before, because I don't think it was out, was the the most recent book that I have written and seems to get a lot of publicity at this point is called In Spirit and in Truth Colon, Music in African American Worship. Where I focus entirely on the liturgical, the music and the liturgical life of the African American community. So that's where we will begin. And I suppose that would be where one of the changes occurred. All along. I considered my ministry strictly music ministry, and because of my working in the church most often and most diligently, it was my husband who was pastor. It became more than music ministry. It became really the whole liturgical piece and the arts piece and the drama piece, so that I think my ministry focus changed to be liturgical with music as one of the supporting arts. It's been shaped, yes, by not only my involvement in the church, we had our assignment in Atlanta when he was called here to be a pastor, was to establish an interracial congregation in a changing neighborhood. And that's what we did. The neighborhood we hoped would be stabilized by the fact that a new Presbyterian church was in the community, and we were concerned about being multi-cultural, interracial, whatever the the term was then interracial. So my ministry then took on a different mode because I realized that some of the African Americans in our congregation were not aware of our origin in the African culture and the like. So I would dare say that my ministry has been shaped by my life experiences and more distinctively by being married, at that time, I got another change coming, to a a clergyman who pretty much helped me model what I wanted that ministry to be. In term that ministry also shaped me because I was excited about what we were doing. That's when I was invited by the Presbyterian Church to serve on the Hymnal Committee. And so it could not just be African American. It took a broader span than that so that we had to make sure that all of the racial, ethnic communities were well represented in that hymnal. So it was a freeing act, I think not. You know, to move from just being an African American in a predominantly White church, I find myself looking more at the total picture of people in the Presbyterian Church. So I think that gets to the answer of how my ministry has changed because of my new experiences, and then I have been changed by the new experiences as well.

And what year did you did you join the hymnal committee?

Actually, it was I can be specific on this 1983 at the General Assembly where the two churches. The Northern and the Southern Presbyterian Church is came together right here in Atlanta. I was then chair of the Advisory Council on Discipleship and Worship, which was the council that was handling the the new liturgical materials for our church. And there was a hymnal in process. We were following pretty much the Methodist model where we put out this small, small sample. And. But the people who came to the General Assembly said now that we have become reunited, we would like a hymnal to be separated from anything else you're doing, because we think that music can help mend and heal some of the things that had happened from the time we split during the Civil War. So that was the year it was officially agreed to start within the next year, I got a call like 18 other people that said, in essence, we want you to serve on the hymnal committee. And so we served. I served. But then before the committee met officially, I was asked if I would chair it. And I was not very excited about that, but I did. And it was one of the most challenging things that had ever happened to me, because even my husband was a little nervous about whether I would survive it and also continue to be a mom and a wife. But four years well, actually five years of working on that committee and sharing it with the whole church and going from place to place, letting them sample what we were looking at and being affirmed. We did fine until we were ready to go to press. And the first thing they wanted to know was, is Onward Christian Soldiers in there? And so we said we asked about it and nobody really wanted it to be that we hadn't gotten many pastors who said they wanted to use it. So it is not there. And so there was a little tension, but we were able to survive it. And nobody there were no we didn't get a lot of letters. So we went to press without Onward Christian Soldiers, and the book is still alive and doing very well.

Now, before you leave that subject, a couple of questions. Were you in the Northern or the Southern Church?

I was in the northern church very interesting. I was raised in the South. But what had happened and I learned a lot about my denomination at that point. What had happened was that when the church split the little Black churches that were in North Carolina, a lot of them were in the Charlotte area and a lot of them around in the South Carolina area where I was born. The the denomination turned them loose. So the Northern Church came down into the South and literally reclaimed them. So we became first United Presbyterians. You know, we were we were part of the Northern Stream. And so the other piece of the enjoyment of this is that my husband was elected moderator the year that brought the two churches back together. So here was when we traveled as moderator and spouse. The people in Mexico wanted to know, why are you northern? You know, you were living in the South. But his answer, I think, also helped to mend some of the healing. You know, we would like to think that we can all join together now and just be a Presbyterian Church.

Well, that actually leads to my second question on this subject. Did did you as you look back on it, do you think that hymnal did contribute to the healing and reunification?

I wish I could. It's just, I wish I could say. I wish I could say that it did. I think it elevated the concern of the people who saw the church as being just Black or White, that it was not either, because now we are Asian and Hispanic. And and so so the streams have come together. So I would like to I would go on record saying yes. It helped to to a large extent.

Now, just to take a step back before you in before 1983, when you were asked to chair that committee, were you working in the church?

At that time, I was on the faculty at Interdenominational Theological Center.

So you were teaching?

I was teaching. And it also meant that I would have to be away from my classes sometimes. And by that time, my husband had been elected president of the seminary.

Okay.

So that worked out very well. And I worked it so that I would not be away from classes. The committee met five or six times a year in blocks of four or five days, and we had summers to work some of that in and over holidays and this kind of thing. So I really was not away from my classes that much.

And would you like to speak any to your ministry after your experience in the hymnal committee?

By then I realized that my love still was and maybe this was where my ministry was to be music in the church. But music as it was a source of healing. Music as a healing agent. Music as a way to broaden perspectives. And I think what happened to me in the midst of all of that, as I was working toward change, I had an opportunity to meet with a number of people who were who belonged to an organization where they we had to learn sign language. And so rather than well, my first experience with signing was one of the members who was a who could not hear or speak the way that we were speaking, pulled us to the water's edge to do worship. And everything was done by sign language. And she taught us very simple songs. So I got to the place when I would go introduce the hymnal, even, that I would gather the people with sign language. So this brought another language to the liturgy that people, you know, they were people were a little curious when they saw this African American woman, you know, trying to speak all these languages. But it was bettered when I was able to say spirit of the living god fall afresh. And people's hands would go, Oh. And even the people who heard differently would say to me, Thank you. It makes us feel like we're part of the community. So that's one of the new things that happened in terms of of my ministry. But shortly after that, my choir did a lot of things at ITC. We sang at Carnegie Hall. We had a lot of invitations to to share who we were as African American theological seminarians around the country as a different kind of way. Then the other piece of it, by this time, my husband and I were very involved in the Kenyan project, and I have spoken a lot about Kenya. But it strengthened my will to be in ministry because I realized then that we had a number of Kenyans who had come to this country and they were not going back home. So it it stretched us on the us, really, because my husband was concerned that he might have dislocated some of the ministers who should have gone back to Kenya. So we became involved there in helping to establish a university so that the students would not have to leave their country to come unless, you know, it was after time and the kids had grown and this kind of thing.

What was the name of the university?

It's now official, the Presbyterian University of East Africa. And we were there in May for the official well, the rite of passage. They had received a letter assuring them that they would move toward accreditation. But the other piece was the Kenyans wanted to have a memorial for my husband on the grounds. Because many of them came here to his right of passage at Morehouse and Martin Luther King Chapel. But they wanted to have a place in Kenya where they could say that Jim Costen, who helped us build this university, is still here with us. So that's interesting.

You told us about that once before and it was just such a powerful story. Really, truly.

Well, they are now ready to move on. They, meaning the Kenyans, see themselves, in fact, they said to us, now that we have enough Kenyans who can kind of help foot the bill for this university. We will not rely so much on others to do it. We will keep our own university alive. And they want to start, now they have the they have the theological portion, and they really are looking to putting a medical portion, a medical school already. So we excited about that.

Melva tell us a little bit about how your unique personality shaped your ministry and how perhaps your ministry shaped you.

Well, I wish I knew how unique my personality is, but and I think I do, it's being able to adapt so quickly and always looking for something else to do. I guess that's what engendered for people who call upon me to do lots of things began to do that, and I would say, okay, well I've not tried this, but if you think I can do it, I will give it a try. So I would like to think my personality is still evolving, and I am grateful for the openness that the Holy Spirit constantly grants that I'm willing to to take on some new life or to try something different or to try another approach to doing something that is pretty much traditionally done. So I hope that will last for a while.

Could you give us an example of a time or two that that you tried something different than the tradition and sort of shook things up?

Okay. We needed a drama teacher at the seminary, and not having had a lot of experience for drama, we had done some, of course, in my own congregation because our church was different in that it was not. It was very Presbyterian, but we did a lot of creative things because our people were so young. All right. So what I did at the seminary with the first class simply walk in and say, we will not use a drama book. You will write all the dramas because they have to reflect theologically the uniqueness that we have here at the Interdenominational Theological Center. And so, you know, what does that mean? Okay. Because I had a few people in place and we we enacted, we took the Christmas story. And I said, nobody's really spent a lot of time dealing with Joseph. And how would you feel, guys, if your wife came and announced that she's pregnant Well, you're not even married yet, and yet the Holy Spirit has made this possible. And how how would you take that? I got them engaged in that. And I think I got about five brand new liturgical pieces out of that whole challenge, you know, try it with Joseph and take them take a script. And while we were doing eisegeting, but it helped free them to understand better when they exegeted, you know, and what was really going on. But that was kind of one of the ways. And then when we do things like this at the seminary, the word out on me was, here comes Melva Costen again, we never know what she's going to do when she goes to chapel. And but that was exciting. You know, one of my singers at one time, though, did not ever want to see liturgical dance. I know this is not a problem anymore. Liturgical dance is everywhere. But during the earlier days, African American preachers particularly were not excited about having liturgical dancing. I think switching the name to praise dances has helped a lot. But up to that point, some of the students, you know, we don't. Dancing is not a part of what we do in worship. That was all right in the Old Testament days. But so it's that kind of stuff. Nothing really, you know, earthshaking. But for some students who come very conservatively oriented, it hits them pretty hard when a female professor says, no. What would you do? What would you say? So.

So did you get some groups doing liturgical dance at ITC?

We've, as God would have it. We have a number of students who came there already dancing. But one young lady, bless her heart, belonged to a very conservative church but was doing dancing on the side. And when she took my chorus and I said, what I need for this event is dancing. And she came to me after and she says, I would like to do it, but I don't think my church would would appreciate it. And I said, well, let's give it a try. And once she became free to do it, she began, I didn't have to worry about it anymore. She started a liturgical dance group, and I think they're still doing it over there at seminary.

As you look back on your life, what do you think have been your most significant contributions?

Perhaps my being able to free seminarians and pastors because they have continued in their ministry to be open. To allowing the youth and to do lots more in church. I mean that as I say this now and see so many, so many television programs where the young people are doing lots of things that may not sound like much, but some of the ministers who have become free to do it are the ones who are allowing it to happen now. So. And they will call me occasionally and thank me for. And the word they use is free. You freed me to to look at life through a different kind of lens. And even to ministers who were African American, did not, who are African American, did not know much about the history and when they would look through the lenses of history, doing a lot of research in South Carolina and North Carolina on the coasts. So if I can say that my being able to free students to be more open and vulnerable to the will of God, I would think that's that would be where it could be. And yet, on the other hand, I also do a lot for the for the for the National Church, where, for instance, last summer I did a series of conferences simply utilizing the liturgical year in ways that was beyond the traditional, yeah, we're going to do it this way. And it would step that way and that way there was so much freedom that would burst through that. I would like to think maybe that may be how God has used me best.

A couple of follow ups. First of all, how how is this framed to engage with the young people connected to the history of the North and South Carolina coasts?

All right. North and South Carolina coasts. You have a lot of African heritage still intact and Geechee and Gullah people. And even though I grew up north of this, students in my classes from those areas, I guess they freed me to come to the coast to look at some things. That's where a lot of the songs were created. That's where a lot of the African heritage still remains intact. And for students, they will look to me that maybe we need to go and talk to the Gullah people before we do this, that, and the other. But it's also opened up the way for a lot of students who want to go back to Africa and look there as well. So that's that's the kind of freedom that I think is still going on.

Do the Gullah people involve the young people more than some other parts of the church do?

You know I would say that they don't really and truly, except that the Gullah groups that I have worked with are always working to bring young people on. And they don't just have a young group, they incorporate them into generationally into their own groups. And so that you've got, I never forget it, like a ten year old with with his grandmom. And they're doing the the maintaining the Gullah dances and the language of the Gullah people. But that's important.

You've used the word free several times this afternoon, and I'm interested in following up on that a little bit in terms of your contribution, you've talked about freeing people to engage in the music of different cultures, freeing people to engage in liturgical dance, in drama and other kinds of worship innovations, and now freeing people to engage with youth and encourage youth a lot. Is is that am I reading this on to you or is this an important part of your ministry to free others and as you said, to be freed yourself?

I know that is a part of my ministry and I guess it all goes back to my own childhood. I did not feel that kind of freedom. And but now that I'm, you know, involved in it, it was there all the time. And it was and maybe I was the one stopping myself from being as free as I needed to be. To. To engage. And because. I recognize that the teaching ministry as being basic to what I do. It's perhaps that element that I did not realize that I had as a kid growing up. I was freer than I really recognize and that may be why this keeps tumbling along as something very important. The fact that my own freedom was enhanced by my allowing others to be freed, to do as they want to do. And yet I look at my own, in midst of all of this, I'm sure I've told you that I have three kids and a bunch of grandkids and being with them, helping them in their choices, trying to keep them from being. I want them to be disciplined, but I also want them to use their own creative imaginations and spirits. And I guess it goes back to piano, which was my first love. Once upon a time, I forced students to learn what I learned. But then when one kid came and in the middle of her recital just looked at me and turned loose and did some things that were free, it was like, okay, I needed that. So it's thanks for calling that to my attention, but it's something that has, I guess kept me, I thought, pinned down when in fact I was freer than I thought.

Can I ask one more follow up question about freedom? When you're you're talking about when you were a child, you thought that you weren't free. But looking back, you see that you were more free than you realized. Does being free or helping someone to become free, does that mean more so, recognizing the freedom that's already there? Or does it mean releasing restrictions so that you weren't free, but you're becoming free?

Good question. Releasing some of their own. So some of my old hang ups so that kids at an earlier age, students at an early age, I like to call them kids, could be freed. Help free me to see life totally differently and and to be writings, I'm doing something now about the movement of the Holy Spirit, you know, and what that means without getting stuck on what others have said, there must be something else that the Holy Spirit would want to see happen. And maybe I could be an instrument in helping to make that, make that happen. So yeah, I guess that's part of the teaching technique anyway, being able to not just know everything, but being free to help others to seek other ways of looking and doing things.

Thank you for that. If I may, I'd like to switch gears and ask you about any crises that you may have faced in either your ministry or in your personal life.

Yes, they were there. And I have to be very careful that I don't over compensate for what might have been something minor when in fact it was a crisis. I think the earliest crisis had to do with my husband's desire to. Become so involved in the Civil Rights Movement that it jeopardized our children. Okay. Speaking of which, Jim, did not grow up in the South. So he had no fear of where he saw problems. Walking right through it. And well in Rocky Mount, North Carolina, where we were involved in our first ministry, he immediately started a crisis for the whole community by inviting an interracial group to live in the community, a small town called Elm City, North Carolina. You probably never heard of it. It's between Rocky Mount and Wilson, North Carolina, very small town and the church needed to be painted. So he you know called some the pastors in Philadelphia and said send us some kids. So they sent these children to this neighborhood. But he went to the mayor and said, look, I want to make sure that, you know, I'm bringing, you know, it would be an interracial kind of setting. And so the man said oh no problem no problem. As soon as he brought the kids, put them in the homes for the people where they were to stay, they would get up the next morning and paint. I had gone back to my home because we had kids that were very small. And by the time I got back into the house, the woman from Elm City called and she was screaming. It was the Klan had a had arrived and well, by the time my husband got back and he turned around and went back, it was it was that was a crisis. That was a crisis I didn't think we'd ever come through. But he immediately my husband took it under control, called Philadelphia, said, I'm sending the kids home. I've you know, I've done something that I need to solve. And he sent the kids back to Philadelphia. But call the moderator of our church, the stated clerk who said, no, we're not going to allow the Klan to do this and to call the governor. And before we knew it, the governor had come to our rescue, sent troops in. And that didn't help me at all, because by then I'm in the University of North Carolina in school, and my husband's name is out on, you know, on the market. They're going to kill him and all this kind of stuff. Well, I. I panicked because. Well, what else is there to do when you've got three little children at home and you're in grad school? So I call my mother in South Carolina and she asked me to send the kids to bring the kids down. And she said, Now if you all mind getting killed, just make sure your will's done and I know where it is. I will keep the children. So I took the kids we took the kids to my mother's house in Spartanburg, and we went back and, you know, as my husband, soon as we got there, rolling up his sleeve, and we fought the battle, it was it was, it was it was tough. And I'm still in school. And I wondered why in my classes, students looking at me like this and whispering, and I said okay, all right, I'm in trouble. But what I discovered was that they were guarding me. They knew what was going on. And even one morning, when it was all in the news, this Costen, Costen, Costen. James Costen. So the, the professor called the roll and got to my name. He asked me if he could speak to me. And so I sat there praying very deliberately, almost verbally, vocally. And so when the class left and he came, he said, Your name and the name Costen is all over the news. And I just wondered if you're related to this James Costen? So I stood up boldly and said, He's my husband, I am related to him and I need to get home. And by that time the class came back in and they said, you know, you know, the professor said, What's going on? They said, Well, we are guarding her. And so, I mean, we just all stood there and cried. And it was just a wonderful it wasn't an end of a crisis. But that's when I realized that I was in much more trouble than I thought. But we got through it very graciously, and that was my las summer. In fact, I finished that year at UNC Chapel Hill, but I call that a crisis because out of that came the urgency from my husband to put the kids in an all White school. I mean, he was going all the way. It's a crisis now. So but we got a lawyer and the one kid who had not entered school was the case. Craig Costen versus the City of Rocky Mount. And I need to go find the papers for this because I really need to document this document this for my own children. And he won the case. So we the kids, we had three our two and the funeral director's kid, we were laughing, said, well, the pastor and the funeral director, nobody cares about you all anyway. But my husband took the kids to school each day, but then one crisis after another in terms of what the children were facing. And they want to put the kids in special classes because they were, you know, dumb and all this kind of stuff. So I went to the school and confronted the teacher and also I only could only confronted her with the fact that I will not remove my kid from the school. He will stay here and finish this semester. In fact they finished two years at that school. And then we moved to Atlanta and. Now, you didn't ask for that kind of crisis, but that was.

We really wanted to know that story.

That it was it was very painful. But we outgrew it and it was within last. My husband died in 03. And just before his death, the middle child, the one that was the case who won the trial, asked if they could, is there any such thing as suing your parents for child abuse? And my husband chuckled. I knew what was going on because this mom was a little closer to this, you know, and I said but now, Craig, you're grown and you have your own families. And why would this come up at this point? And he said he laughed. He said, well, what's happening now. A lot of kids taking their parents to court and everything, said we never would have done it. But suppose we had been so rambunctious as to sue you two for child abuse. And of course, my husband was very always very philosophical. And he says, well, let's talk about the gift that you gave to Rocky Mount into the East and North Carolina and to everything. And so we got that conversation going and got their minds off of getting us sued, even though we're way past the time. But those were the kind of crises that I think, you know, with this talking about freedom and not being free enough to do that. Yeah. And it happened early enough in our lives so that we could grow on that. And then together our ministries took off and, you know, kind of a together kind of thing, more so than just being pastor's wife, being his organist, choir director. And then.

Are there any others that you would like to name?

You know, beyond that, I guess I began to think differently about what is a crisis. And it was all because well, part of the reason we came, needless to say, was we had befriended Martin Luther King, Jr. and Jim wanted to be where he could be with King and with with those kind of gatherings. With every time we met. Every time we met, it was a liturgical occasion. I mean, it was it was God's using the moment to refuel. And I began to think differently then about, you know, what is a crisis? Even though that was that was that was, because I won't mention all the times my kids were almost, you know, the car almost ran down, one of the kids in this kind of stuff. And we would get messages that, you know, they would get our kids. And then when we moved to Atlanta, the first question was, you know, there are people here who know what you did in North Carolina. So you had to be you had to understand freedom in order to to live freely in a community where you were bold enough to say, okay, God used us. And so nothing else was so much crises, I don't think.

What about crises that your communities have faced? You've touched on this a little bit, but can you think of some of those that may have challenged you over the years?

Yeah, the African American community in which we.

Or your denomination or local church or any any community you choose.

Let me use as case in point. My church community, I guess would be it would be would be a good thing because the church has always been there for us in a crisis. I mean, at all times. But I think when Eugene Carson Blake, who was then the stated clerk of the Presbyterian Church and when Jim called him and says, look, I got a little crisis going here, I'm having you know, the Klan is on my case and they want to burn. You know, there were threats to burn not only the church, but our house. So the we lived right next door to the church in Rocky Mount. And the church community, not only the members of our church, but all the other churches just kind of took basis, and said, well, we've got a crazy preacher whom God has sent here to help us. And so they the church became the the place that guarded our house, that guarded us to go everywhere we went. We had. And One night my husband could hear people in the backyard and the Presbyterian manse was really nice size house. And he saw these people in the in the yard of the house. So he called to the church and said, Who are these people in our yard? They said, Reverend don't worry about it. Everything's taken care of. And of course, he did not sleep that night because he could not imagine who would risk their lives guarding us. And he was up early that morning. And guess where he found those people from? They were the guys out there were the people who Jim would go to the pool hall occasionally and he'd shoot pool with the guys on the street. You know, they were not members of the church. And he said, Jim says, I saw you. And he said, yeah, any preacher that would come in here and play pool with us needs to be protected. God wants to protect you. Okay. So with the neighborhood, but then with our national church saying, oh, we heard about this, but if you have been willing to stick your neck out, we are we will protect you as well. So when we moved here, the church engaged a number of, I would call it, to use the word crazy is my loving word to talk about people like my husband and all of the ministers who were willing to go with Martin. And the church said, we will see that you are you are heavily insured. I mean, we were here doing that. You weren't even born. This was during the height of the Civil Rights Movement. And I've tried to talk about this one time with Jackie Grant because I was not on the front line because guess where I was, I was at home with the children and making sure they were safe. You know, once Mother got them back to me, her thing was that, you know, you all stay out of trouble if you can. But our church was very supportive during all of that time. And we have no regrets. You know, I think I've met somebody this summer at the General Assembly who was in Rocky Mount at the time we were doing all this, and they identified themselves. And they were White members of our community who were also protecting and guarding the house. So our church community has always been there for us, and I think that's what strengthens our desire, even when the hymnal, you know, hymnal got a little spanking on the hands every now and then. But even with that, you you felt comfortable because you felt your church said, this is what we want you to do the hymnal. So we do have a lot of respect and support from our church community locally and as well as nationally. So we're grateful for that. And then now on this end of it, as we see it, my husband taught me how to move from one crisis to another with strength. And it's almost like building another platform. You can stand up here now and. Because he always thought he was like Stephen the martyr, and he always said, well, I when I was a kid, I wanted to be like Stephen. I wanted to die for the cause. And I said, Well, now Stephen did not have a wife and three children and this kind of stuff. But we know now that it was God's way of providing the strength. And I think accepting that strength was a part of the freedom. Up until that point, we didn't even feel comfortably free to accept that kind of freedom.

Let's. Let's take a little break.

Okay.

We're getting close to the end of the questions, but I thought maybe a break would give you a chance to. To drink some water and breathe deeply. And we can check in and make sure that we leave the space we need to ask. Ask what you most want to tell us. Our natural movement now would be.

Well, we've just taken a break and we've learned some new things about you Melva that we'd like to hear you share in more detail on camera. Could you tell us a little bit more about your participation in the civil rights struggles? Some of the particulars, some of the stories, and some of the people with whom you engaged.

It's a joy to be able to to talk about this now. I mean, during the times that these things were happening, it was you almost had to whisper. But now, two events I want to share. When we were in Rocky Mount and my husband, a funeral director, and a minister took on the Civil Rights Movement literally. And they one was a local guy, but the other two were the ministers were new to the town, but they felt the urgency to participate in this struggle because the minister knew Martin King personally. And so the move was to integrate the schools first. And we would we integrated the high school in this manner. We decided which high school we were going to integrate. We only had one Black school in the city, and that was Booker T. Washington High School. But we wanted to participate by indicating that we are willing to take the risk with our own children, knowing that it's not going to be easy. So what we did, actually, the men took the lead in terms of we will pick the students who will go, but we need people to help us prepare them to live in a White world and a White high school. And so we would spend hours at a time getting them ready by reminding them that this is a peaceful movement. You are not to hit back. So and we're not going to just teach you how to protect your face, but we're going to teach you how to stand up. And when you get spat on, wipe it and move on, this kind of thing. So we spent a lot of time doing that. And when the when we were getting close to the time to take the step in the opening of school to to do this, the city was backing off on us. And so George Dudley says, I will call Martin and see what we can do. And in the process of calling them, said, if you're anywhere near Rocky Mount just announce that you hear things or have people in Rocky Mount have difficulty and that you will come if necessary. And sure enough, he made that statement from Raleigh, which is only an hour's drive. And the next morning we got a call. My husband was awake and bright and early saying, you know, this is all right. The kids can you can get the kids off to school. And so that's what broke that barrier. But in the meantime, Martin had been to Rocky Mount on several occasions. His strategy was, he was so smart. Excuse me. Not like that, but he was very smart. He said, my strategy is, you know, let the people come. I don't want to be the first one there, but I want to my arrival. I want to make sure that people understand that we're part of a movement. And so we'd have an open forum and I'd be at the organ I should never forget. We had a full choir and everything, and after we would sing and we'd sing all we could sing. Martin hadn't come in. I had to play some more. So he came and he would make his speech and then we would, you know, return to someone's home for dinner, this kind of thing. And we never would let the city know whether he was still in town or whether he had left. Most often he would spend the night and early the next morning be driven where he would not be seen. You know, it was it was really kind of nerve wracking. So then when we came to Atlanta, when Jim was called here by the church to establish a new church, he was excited because he could be right at Martin's right arm because that's what he really wanted to do. And so but since it was a new church in the first place, you don't come to a town like Atlanta with Daddy King, who was king of all he surveyed. My husband immediately befriended Daddy King and told him that he'd come here to start a new church and that he would needed his blessings of course, and so Daddy King says we'll you're a smart young man, you're going to do very well because you know what to do. You have my permission, and so that it was natural that when we had our opening service that he had invited Dr. King Senior to speak and bring, he said make these blessings official, you know. And and he did, especially with it being an interracial church, it was all the things that Martin was after, you know, that we need to be one of the people. And so few minutes well, service was held at an elementary school. And 30 minutes before the service began, Daddy King was not there. We call him that. Daddy King was not there. And so Jim would go to the pulpit, says Daddy King here yet? And I said no he's not here yet. So we he said, well, we were going to start the service in 5 minutes. And we did. And so when it came time for Dr. King to speak, Jim, my husband went to the mike and said, Is Daddy King anywhere in the audience? And he, way in the back of the church, says, I'm here. And very slowly, he came down the aisle. I had met him already, of course. And he got over to me and he put his hand on my shoulder. I was sitting at the piano and it was a stage and he put his hand on my shoulder. He says, I hear you are the preacher's wife. I said, That's right. Said, the music was good. I like that Mendelssohn you did, He Watching Over Israel, that was beautiful. And you did. What was that spiritual? You know, he named the spiritual. Then he said, But if you really want to grow this church, you better get you some gospel music. And he went on to the to the platform. And, of course, we gave him a standing ovation. But then I started taking organ lessons after at his church with his organist. And so we got to know him very well. But then one on one occasion it was after King's, yeah, death. There was a message. My husband said, Did you see the message from Daddy King? He wants you to call him. I said, What does he want with me? He said, well, I think he wants you to play for Mama King because she's there celebrating her anniversary as a choir director. And I said, what date is that? Well, when I looked at my calendar, I realized I could not do it. And so he said, well, you better call him. I'm not going to call. You better call. So I finally did have to call and he called. And Jim says, Melva, Daddy King's on the phone. I'll stay on this phone. You need to get this phone. And so he said, why didn't you return my call? I said, Daddy King I really have. You know, that's a service that my choir is doing the concert. And I really need to be there for the morning and the afternoon. And he said, I can't believe you turned me down. I said, I really am turning you down this time, but next time. But make a long story short, that was the day that the person came in and shot at the organ, killed the organist, and then turned when he realized that she was not at the organ, turned the gun on her. She was you know, she was killed in church. And I never forget my husband called me and said, God saved you for something because you would have been the first one that got shot. But yeah, but those memories are still fond because we, we maintained our relationship with with them, Daddy King, but Civil Rights Movement engaged all of us. I mean, I did not have my I could not put my whole energy into being at the marches. I mean, Jim was March on Washington. And, you know, wherever King marched, Jim was there. As for my engagement, it was really with helping the kids in terms of doing things to get ready to be to integrate schools and the like. And then with my own children having to really guard them from from danger. And so when we moved to Atlanta, because Jim was gone a good bit with Martin and the Selma march and everything, the big times, you know, with the hose and stuff. I watched on TV only because I just I didn't have anybody to leave the kids with my mother had already told me, you know, you're going to get yourself killed. But so I think being a part of of that kind of life helped, had me focus my life a lot more. And it gave me a lot more. I loved my husband, had a lot of respect for him. But for him to put on his clothes and say, if this is a day God wants to take me, I will be taken doing his work and out he would go.

So for you, how was that for you?

I should never forget my the argument we had one time when I when the Selma March, we were the kids and I were still in Rocky Mount. We were in and out of Atlanta, but Jim had moved to Atlanta. And then he called to tell me that he was going to go to Selma and that the church had, and I kept trying to say, But Jim, Jim. And he said, Melva, just be quiet. Let me tell you, the church is taking care of everything. If something happens to me, you'll have enough money to educate the kids. I mean, he went through this and I just cried like a baby, you know, so then I called my, the the my principal was the clerk of session. And I called him and he and his wife came over and they said, well, let's he said, Let me call him. So he called Atlanta. And Jim was so glad to hear from him. He says, Well, I'm not calling you for me. I'm calling you because I'm sitting here with your wife and children and my wife and my one son. And we are just wondering if your move to go to Selma is a good one. And Jim chuckled and he said, Tom, don't try to stop me. I'm going. And he said, Now if it will help you any, you and your wife take good care of my family, you know. But he says, I'm in the movement and I just cannot deny myself this opportunity to do what God is calling me to do. So we left it at that and he got back safely, thank God. But I'm you know, we had some encounters at ITC once when the women in the movement were telling how they were out there doing this and, you know, doing the other. And I said, well, you know, I can't confess that except for the one time that I helped with getting the kids ready and and daily worrying about my own children in the midst of an environment that was hostile. I can't say that I carried in a Molotov cocktails or anything like that.

How did how did you learn the practices of nonviolence yourself? Because that's an art.

Now, that might have been a gift that I have. If you ask me about my own personality, my personality type, I don't know. It's not on the card. It's not on the chart anywhere, was not to fight back. I mean, you just if you could not verbally attend to it in a Christian way, even verbally, you know that that's what you want. That's what you. If that's what you want to do, I'll turn my other cheek, you know. So that was not difficult. The difficulty came though with the children. And it was wonderful to to see them. You know, they had to get out of their system, I'm not gonna let anybody do this to me. I'm you know. And then once they got it all blown out, then you'd go up and push them. You know, you just go and push them little bit, and they would say, But I'm doing all right because you a lady. And you, I know you. You Craig's mama, you know, this kind of stuff, but it's it was not easy to teach, especially if.

Did you continue meeting with young people over time?

We did until they were secure. But I don't know what the anybody in the other city and some of the people who were first in doing it, the people in Alabama, they have recently begun to talk about their experiences. But once I know the last meeting we had with them, we said, now we will meet again at such and such a time, but we know you can do it. And they they were all you know, they were revved up. And so they but we didn't meet with them, I think, two more times before.

Your children have teased you about child abuse, but I'm I'm curious whether your children and the others involved actually began to feel some sense of inner pride and and a sense that they were doing something significant.

That's what my husband's lecture to them was after. They you know, these were grown kids talking and they were kind of chuckling because they were in fact, the wives of my two boys were riding with us. And so Jim was explaining, By now you ought to know that what you did was a service to the world. And, you know, and so my Craig, who is very vocal, he says, you know, you all got the inspiration and you told us to go do it because and, you know, I really feel sorry for my kids because there was a school right across the street from us. And I was looking forward to walking across the street, taking them to school and getting in my car because I was teaching in the county system and they were not anxious to be away from their friends they had, Craig was five years old and you know, we didn't have kindergarten, so he was going right straight to the first grade. And his whole thing was as long as Tommy is there, I'm fine. Now, here we were putting them, taking them out of this environment, taking them to a hostile. In fact, my husband was talking about it not too long before he passed away, how he would take the kids down with the heckling parents standing on the sidelines. And I said, Anybody ever throw an egg at you? And he said, They missed me one time. And I did stop at that point to say that egg hits me, I'm going to fry it. That's something. But and even these kids, you know, babies being carried into this school. And so the oldest son did not fare well from it. And number two, son was the one who didn't want to leave his friends adjusted much quicker. My oldest son finally admitted that what they did at recess time, you know, during those days, recess was recess. They would decide which kid they were going to beat up. And the three of them, the two, we didn't know all these kind of things. They said we would beat up a kid, bloody nose and we dare him to tell it. I said, Well, you know it's a wonder you didn't get put out of school because everybody knew that you little Black boys were over there beating up on kids. He said nobody knew it. His eyes were big, he said I just look him like this. I didn't hit him? Yeah, it was it was tough, you know, to talk to people like the ones who were really in the middle of it. They had this real sense of what we have done has been God's gift. And it's kind of the same thing I felt, I feel every time I pick up the Presbyterian Hymnal, you know, this this is God's gift through the 18 of us to the church. And one of the members of the committee was a Native American who was very shy. And I found myself going out of the way. And she would not even you know, I was just another person for her. So finally about the third meeting, she came to me and said, I understand. She says, I know now that you fast and pray for three days and that you come here those three days in this space, I said, yeah, you come where we're going to meet. Yes. And she said, May I join you? That was a breakthrough. And she joined me for the rest of the time that we were meeting and finally told me her story. You know, she said, I'm honored to be on this committee, but I just don't want the people laughing at my music and things like that. I mean, you know, I thought I had a big burden to bear, but she had, her burden was bigger than mine and her things. She says, I didn't, she says, I didn't know you, but I didn't know anybody here. So I didn't trust anybody. So. So you find yourself having to be that for, you know, for everybody.

Something about your own prayer life. And an example made her think you were accessible.

Well, I heard the big thing that she said to me and we were singing. We always sang through everything that we voted into the hymnal the way, before we would call, before I'd call for the question we'd sing it through. And as we were singing through the song that she had submitted, and that, the words she used the words, but the tune was familiar. And as we were singing it, she was crying and she kept trying to hide her face. And that was early in the process. So I call a break, coffee break. And I went over to her I said, Are you all right? And she stood and she fell on me just crying. I never thought I'd live to see the day that my people's music would be in my hymnal. And we cried together. And then I said, Let me share this with the committee. Oh, no, no, no, no. I want them to think I'm tough. I said, Well, I'm not tough. And so she and I said, I would not call a meeting to order until you give me permission. So I'm going out. Go. And so we were able to do that. And that's when I realized, you know, you realize you're not the center of the universe, that there are other people. And so she said to me later, when she came back next time, I knew you wouldn't hurt me. You wouldn't do anything to hurt me. And so it's prayer.

Yes. Yes. That does lead me to one other question that connects both to your work in the hymnal and in the civil rights movement. What gave you strength to endure some of the more challenging parts of that?

Belief that God did not want the world to be crazy like it was. And even with, even my last semester at Chapel Hill when I was in classes and we didn't have cell phones and we didn't have, there was one phone on the hall. I had no idea that the women in my dorm actually had received a call that was meant for me. And from that point on, they would not let me answer the phone. So they began, the dorm people were guarding, protecting me too. I mean, I think about how those and they were all, they were not Black women, these were all White women who really took the time and the energy. And then in the music department where I was doing my degree, same thing the guys would not if they saw me coming, they would organize themselves. Now you make sure you're going to be here until she's here. We're going to make sure she gets walked home and all this kind of stuff. And in the middle of that you say, Well, okay, not, the world isn't that bad. You know, what God wants done, just have to freely release yourself and let it happen and. Plenty of prayer and I found myself praying not so much for me, but for my husband, because he was he was vulnerable. And the one time I saw him come back to the house, afraid. He always wore his dressed up clothes, we called it. When he went out. Whatever he was doing, he was dressed. So when he came back that night, he was he looked at me real funny and sat down. I said, Are you all right? He said, No. He said, I came that far from being hit by a Molotov cocktail. And I did like this and backed away until I could get, you know, enough. And then I ran to my car and I found myself wanting to get home to you guys. You know, it dawned on me. I needed to be home and said, because, you know, that was a Black woman who was going to hit him with it. And she was talking about the fact that I was dressed. Here you all dressed up. Where were you when we were on the street and couldn't find anything to eat and this kind of stuff. And he said, That's as vulnerable as you wanna feel, especially when you know that just that far, your head would have been gone. And so I found myself doing a lot of praying him through a lot that to, you know, protecting all of us. But, you know, this man is surely a child of yours. And so.

Thank you.

You've spoken certainly a lot about struggle, especially in the context of community. But are there any personal struggles that you'd like to name?

Oh, yeah. That struggle as a woman in a man's world. Let's face it, at the seminary. Especially in the area. Well, actually, there were not that not that many people interested in liturgy among the men in my in my at seminary when I first went there. But I got all sorts of questions. You know. At the time I was there were only two women on the faculty. And that was a real struggle, trying to convince myself that I was in the right place. And I knew that, you know, I had been teaching in public schools and I was called to the job by the president of ITC, he was he'd come to our church. We our church was weird in that we didn't have the same old usual stuff, as always, drama and this kind of stuff. And so the president of ITC, Dr. Bronson, came to came to church, a Sunday that I had done a creative lesson around the day of Christ's, I want to call it assassination. Can you believe? And the day he was put to death on the cross. And the president came over and said, there is a contract on my desk for you, come by and sign it. So that's when I got the job.

My goodness.

And so, you know the guys, you know why? Look at all these men over here, why do you? Why do you want to be teaching over here? Well, Jim was he was on the staff as a dean of the Presbyterian School, but not not the president. So that was that was a struggle. And I, you know, found myself being convinced that if God had called me there, that I was going to do what I could. And I deliberately didn't bring my husband into it because I didn't want him to think that I had any fight in me at all and that it was a fight for me to have to say, What am I gonna do about this? That was a real struggle.

But you didn't want him to think you had any fight?

I didn't want him to have to fight, that kind of fight. And then finally, when I did mention it, he says, you knew when you accepted this job that there would be two women on this faculty, Jackie had not even come then. And so you, handle it the best way you can. That gave me the fight.

Would you tell us a little bit more about the struggles that you had, maybe a story or two about how you experienced being a woman in the theological school at that period of time and where you see the changes that have taken place.

Okay. And I'll graciously do this because I have a I have a daughter who's going to be facing, I'm sure one of these days, the same sort of thing. And she would not want to hear me say that struggle is over. During those days, it was an instance. Now, as long as I was teaching in the public schools, doing the music and doing well, I taught elementary school. That was fine. I was doing what women normally do. But then when I accepted a full time job at the seminary and mine was initially organist, choir director and teacher of courses on Black music, at that time, worship was in the curriculum, but it was not a requirement. And that's when I got into trouble because once I was doing what I was called to do, the choir, you know, it's all right to see a woman do choir it, all this kind of stuff and play the organ. They didn't care about Bach and anybody anyway. The guys would go in there and say, Why don't you just play something else, you know, that was not no problem. But the problem came when the worship professor we had hired a worship person and in the middle of the beginning of the class, beginning of the semester, he died, dropped dead. By that time I was involved with the Presbyterian Church nationally in all of its liturgical things from 1977 forward, there's not a book that you can pick up that I did not have a hand in helping to develop. So it was my husband who went to the academic dean and said, my wife could teach that course in a way that all of the denominations represented would not be intimidated because she's not coming at this strictly as a Presbyterian Reformed scholar. She has the gifts of teaching it in terms of knowing what the liturgy is all about. And she will have you come forth and talk about what the AME's doing and the CME's and this kind of stuff. So I accepted the job on one condition, and that was that he would co-teach it with me because I was afraid of what was going to happen. And sure enough, you know, two people at a desk and the guy's, Hey Doc, my husband, that's what they'd call him, you know, and then I don't think they ever called me anything. And so I began to sense that even among the students, I was going to have difficulty. And Jim said to me at the first day, he said, Melva is your niche. When I was taking this, nobody taught it like this. I mean, you make it sound like it's something joyful and you're not repeating the professor's old way of doing things. And so I said, Well, I love it, you know. So but I realized that whatever I said, they would not, really paying too much. Weren't taking any notes. And it's all my husband had to do was stand up and say hello. And so we decided to test them. And the test was I would write out the lecture and then when I would finish my lecture. He would come and do the same identical lecture. And he looked at me and said, okay, I'll try it. And sure enough, even to the point he almost had to hold of him, you know, I was just doing it. He had to hold the paper up and was reading what I had already taught them, what I'd already said. And they were going, yes, Amen doctor, that's it. And in the middle of the class, he put his paper down and said, you have just proved that you are sexist, non committed Christians. He could say that. He could say that because he was a gentleman and he said and you have abused my wife by not because what I just what I'm reading is what she just taught you and you didn't take any notes. As of this moment, this classroom is hers. I will not be back. And if you abuse her, you will have me to contend with. Good morning. And you are dismissed.

Wow.

So after then, they, you know, they took him seriously because they really respected him. And so we got along after then it was not only easier to get through with what I was doing, but they even requested that it become a required course. And by that time I was chairing the curriculum committee, because that's one of my expertise and worship became one of the main courses. By then the faculty was beginning and what happened was faculty was beginning to change too. We had faculty members who were willing to fight the battle with the women in terms of inclusiveness. So what I experience now, you know, one way it's unfortunate that my reputation precedes me. And so they, you know, everybody's listening with with strong ears and they will call, the guys will call me. So we've raised a new generation of students who are much more respectful. The ministers who were I mean, the faculty members who at that time were giving me kind of a hard time, gradually got over it. But you could still sense that they were not totally excited about having a woman on the faculty. Now, where are we now? I haven't been I don't know where ITC is, but I've been to, you know, Yale and other other places. And I sense that that it's not totally like it was when when I was coming along. But I think it is something that needs constant reminders that women can. Can do anything we want to do. But I still think as I look at the little boys and kids growing up and even my grandkids growing up, I sense that if we're not careful, we're going to have to maybe back where we started from. And I say that with with the women's concern, because the truth of the matter is, when it comes to integration, that's a piece that needs to bear watching as well.

Absolutely.

Yeah. So we have a long way to go in both areas.

We have a long way to go. And I made the observation before where I was doing something recently, I think, lecture at Yale on the Holy Spirit and African American worship and boldly, because we were all, we're from all around the world, this conference, this was an international conference on Holy Spirit. And one of the gentlemen following my presentation came to me and said, You've opened the way for me. I wanted to say some of what you said, but you said it boldly, and I am going to say it just as boldly. So that that gave me some impetus, because he's from an environment where women are just not teaching upfront.

Interesting. But he he received that.

He received that. Yeah. Yeah.

What about joys? What are some of the joys that you've had in your life?

Well, the joys that I've had, center, again, around the family and the church. And and in this order, having children brought and continues to bring joy in my life, because now they are at the point where they are having grandchildren. They're having children of their own and now they're children. So it's a joy to be able to sit as matriarch. And actually. And I miss my husband terribly. But when we gather, it's it's like, now, mom, better go talk to mom, you know, go talk to mom. And so it's a joy to be able to see the offsprings of. Of kids. And then we do lots of family reunions. Every two years, my family, all the way to the great great. I have an uncle who is 99. He was in Detroit. Yes. Well, he was there yesterday at the funeral. And for him to still have the energy I mean, he looks like he's 45, honestly, he's a barber. And every now and then he goes and cuts hair and he uses a razor. But it's something about the joy of being with family. And, you know, he looking at me and I was at your house not too long ago. Yeah. You live in Atlanta, you know? You know, he's at 99. He can say anything he wants to say, but. So the joy is family familial. But even more than that, there's a great joy when it comes to to church and ecumenically, I'll be honest with you, Presbyterians. Fine. I love them dearly, but I do do a lot with the World Alliance of Reformed Churches and National Council of Churches. And so you interact with people across denominations and the like. So the joy is being a servant of God, I think.

Well, thank you so much. This has been such an enriching experience. Before we close, is there anything else that you would like to to share, to offer?

Can I thank the two of you? Indeed. It's an honor to to be a part of your data gathering. How many of us do you have? Just got a bunch of people.

38.

Wow.

You and Anne Wimberly and Jacquelyn Grant from ITC.

Wonderful.

And one from Columbia and some from here and some graduates from here and then people from different places. We are so privileged to have this time with you. It's it has meant a great deal to us. And I'm sure the people who watch this are going to be moved by it.

Thank you.