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Annanda Barclay oral history, 2021.
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- speakerWell, Annanda, I was just going to
- speakergo ahead and start off by asking you
- speakerwhen you first felt a call to
- speakerministry.
- speakerYeah, I was studying for my LSATs
- speakerin college
- speakerand
- speakerand I had a Wesleyan moment
- speakerof a strange, warm feeling.
- speakerAnd
- speakerI I honestly
- speakerjust talked to God and I was like,
- speakerAll right, I don't feel like I'm
- speakerlike, I'm pastor material
- speakerat all, you know, typical college
- speakerstudent ran track and a
- speakertiny little liberal arts school,
- speakerlike, loved to party, like loved to
- speakerjust live life. So what I associated
- speakerwith ministry was so
- speakernot so, but antithetical enough
- speakerto the lifestyle that I had
- speakerhappily been living in and chosen.
- speakerAnd the examples
- speakerof ministry that I saw on campus
- speakerwere like so,
- speakerso narrow and uninviting
- speakerto the multiplicity of the human
- speakerexperience.
- speakerAnd so I made God a promise and
- speakersaid, if this is real,
- speakerI have to unequivocally
- speakerget into everywhere that I apply
- speakerand then and then I'll go
- speakerfor it. But otherwise I'm going
- speakerright into law school straight like,
- speakercontinuing with the LSATs and I got
- speakerin.
- speakerI only applied to two places
- speakerand I got in so I was like, All
- speakerright, let's I don't know what
- speakeryou're doing with me, but I'll roll
- speakerwith it.
- speakerSo.
- speakerDid you grow up going to church?
- speakerYes. So I'm a I'm a cradle
- speakerPresbyterian.
- speakerMy grandparents on my dad's side
- speakercame from Jamaica and they landed
- speakerin Chicago
- speakerto a historical African American
- speakerPresbyterian Church.
- speakerAnd still around to this day.
- speakerSo I was baptized
- speakerin the same church as my dad and my
- speakeraunt, Pine Avenue United
- speakerPresbyterian Church is a
- speakerhistorically African American Presbyterian
- speakerChurch in the Austin Neighborhood of Chicago.
- speakerSo, yeah, I grew up Presby
- speakerand like didn't even know the
- speakerPresbyterian Church was majority
- speakerwhite until like middle school, and
- speakerI moved to
- speakerGeorgia like North Atlanta suburbs
- speakernow called Johns Creek and then grew
- speakerup in my teenage years at Johns
- speakerCreek Presbyterian Church is what
- speakerit's now called. It was called
- speakerChurch of the Hills when I was there
- speakerand then like discovered Montreat
- speakerand like all these other
- speakerdenominational resources.
- speakerSo and just the bigger
- speakeraspects of the church and realized,
- speakerOh my gosh, Presbyterianism is
- speakersignificantly bigger than I imagined
- speakerand had stayed in the church.
- speakerI've experimented with other like
- speakerdenominations and even like outside
- speakerof Christianity.
- speakerSo I do dabble in a little like
- speakerBuddhism.
- speakerI think Hinduism's got something to
- speakersay that I'm definitely about, Bahai
- speakerI think is a really neat religious
- speakertradition.
- speakerSo I I'm not necessarily
- speakerlike trans religious,
- speakerbut I mean, I dabble I dabble
- speakeruniversal universalism.
- speakerSo, yeah, so grew up Presbyterian.
- speakerWell, maybe this is a good place to
- speakerask then.
- speakerLike growing up, did you know kind
- speakerof about the movement for LGBTQ
- speakerinclusion in the church?
- speakerWere you aware of all the
- speakerdenominational policies about LGBTQ
- speakerpastors being ordained?
- speakerNo.
- speakerI mean, that wasn't even talked
- speakerabout, especially in Black
- speakercommunities that was definitely not
- speakertalked about.
- speakerI came from a more
- speakerconservative family, and my
- speakerfamily is considered the hippie
- speakerliberals because women could be
- speakerordained and we were Presbyterian
- speakerand my little, in my immediate
- speakerfamily right, coming from a Pentecostal
- speakerbackground.
- speakerAnd then growing up in Georgia, that
- speakerwasn't a thing. So I was in the
- speakercloset until seminary
- speakerand like struggled.
- speakerI came out really early in seminary,
- speakerlike my first semester, but I
- speakerdidn't. I didn't realize one could
- speakerbe Christian and be queer, and I had
- speakerto go through my own process of.
- speakerYou know for a while, I was like, Oh
- speakermy gosh, am I possessed, am I like? I went through so many different
- speakerphase.
- speakerLike, is there something wrong with
- speakerme?
- speakerDoes God not like, like everything
- speakerI've heard was so negative.
- speakerBut it wasn't until I actually fell
- speakerin love for the first time, and I
- speakeractually understood what love songs
- speakerare talking about. Beforehand they
- speakerdidn't have the same resonance.
- speakerI was like, All right, you know
- speakeryou're in love.
- speakerBut when I actually did experience
- speakerthat love, I was like, Oh my gosh,
- speakerthis makes so much sense.
- speakerAnd it felt right in my body.
- speakerAnd and when I came to the
- speakerconclusion in seminary
- speakerthat my issue actually isn't with
- speakerGod, it's with people.
- speakerI was like, All right, this makes a
- speakerlot of sense, but I have had
- speakerto do, and on occasion still have to
- speakerdo some of that work of internalized
- speakerhomophobia. And I think
- speakerbeing a woman of color
- speakerin particular, of course like
- speakeridentifying like cisgender
- speakerlike female woman.
- speakerBut in particular, my my background
- speakerwas like African American and
- speakerAfro-Caribbean, helped
- speakerme to understand the parallels
- speakerof the sin of othering.
- speakerAnd so I was able to place
- speakerit like racial injustice
- speakerin my experience of racial injustice
- speakerand the ways in which those
- speakerinjustices overlap with LGBTQIA,
- speakerlike
- speakerqueer injustice, and
- speakerbeing able to understand a little
- speakerbit of the difference. So I think
- speakerthat helped to accelerate, at least
- speakerfor me, some of my understandings,
- speakerlike once I got, Oh, this is this
- speakeris a people issue, this is not a God
- speakerissue. Like, I was able to take off
- speakerfrom there and, you know,
- speakerbecame a little bit of a progressive
- speakerfundamentalist, as I like to say.
- speakerSo I'm like, always all right, You're
- speakera recovering progressive
- speakerfundamentalist,
- speakernot being not trying to police
- speakerpeople as they try to explore and
- speakerexpand their worldviews, right?
- speakerBecause I was
- speakera policer are for a hot minute in
- speakerseminary, good God.
- speakerAnd yeah, yeah, just
- speakerbringing my family along, which
- speakerI mean took years and
- speakerand also learning where they're
- speakercoming from, too, because as I came
- speakerout and my whole world view changed
- speakerand rediscovering myself and
- speakerand like acknowledging when I came
- speakerout
- speakerin seminary, the context of
- speakerqueerness that I came out was in a
- speakerwhite queer context, right?
- speakerSo like all of these markers of
- speakerqueer belonging were white markers
- speakerof queer belonging, you know, like
- speakerthe L Word.
- speakerAnd that's a very particular
- speakercontext, right?
- speakerLike, you're like, you don't know
- speakerthe L Word, you don't know this, and
- speakerit's kind of like, like, No, I
- speakerdon't.
- speakerAnd like.
- speakerI'm Black, you know, so is
- speakera lot of like this intersectional
- speakerjourney that's been a part of my
- speakerqueerness.
- speakerAnd so eventually, you know,
- speakerit kind of got to this spot kind
- speakerof how I relate to myself in terms
- speakerof race, in terms LGBTQ.
- speakerLike, however I design define myself
- speakeras a queer person like that
- speakeradds to the queer canon.
- speakerAnd I feel that way as like
- speakera, as a, you know, a Black person, however,
- speakerI define myself within my Blackness
- speakerlike that adds to the Black canon.
- speakerNo matter what queer people say, no
- speakermatter what Black people say, no
- speakermatter like.
- speakerBeing me is what adds to the canon
- speakerof whatever intersections and
- speakeridentities I'm a part of.
- speakerSo the church is just
- speakerso averse to talking about, desire
- speakerand like
- speakerphysicality, it's just,
- speakerit just does it such a disservice.
- speakerYou know, it's like
- speakeryeah, it's pretty obnoxious
- speakeryou know in a hetero way or in a
- speakerhomo, in a
- speakerqueer way.
- speakerThat's very true, yeah.
- speakerRight?
- speakerIt's like you have hormones.
- speakerThey're a natural part of you.
- speakerHow do you how do you
- speakeracknowledge that without denying,
- speakerhow do you have healthy boundaries?
- speakerHow do you know, like healthy ways,
- speakerlove, healthy touch,
- speakerconsent?
- speakerYou know,
- speakerYes.
- speakerIt's not rocket science.
- speakerIt's very human and like to
- speakerdeny that part of our humanity, I
- speakerthink, is a huge problem.
- speakerAnd in a
- speakerway that the church has contributed
- speakerto a lot of pain, suffering, and
- speakersin, in society
- speakerand within one another that
- speakerreally doesn't have to be there, you
- speakerknow?
- speakerThe Bible's pretty open about a lot
- speakerof that stuff.
- speakerYeah.
- speakerIs that kind of the attitude
- speakerthat, well, I just I wanted to ask
- speakerwhat it was like going to Austin
- speakerPresbyterian Theological Seminary?
- speakerWere there like resources for LGBTQ
- speakerstudents, resources
- speakerfor pastors seeking ordination that
- speakerwere LGBTQ?
- speakerI mean, yes or no, we were when I
- speakerwas at Austin, we were still putting
- speakerthe fight together.
- speakerThere was a queer and gay alliance.
- speakerI mean, there was tension between
- speakerthe administration like we were
- speakerstill doing a lot of
- speakera lot of queer activism on campus.
- speakerWe were fighting to make sure
- speakerbecause marriage still wasn't
- speakeraround. Of course, the seminary
- speakerwanted the denominational policy.
- speakerAnd so there were queer couples
- speakeron campus. So fighting to for queer
- speakercouples to live together
- speakeron campus like to
- speakereventually get married in the
- speakerchapel, right?
- speakerLike pushing the administration
- speakerand understanding that there are
- speakerrisks to pushing the administration
- speakerright? There are risks pushing your
- speakerprofessor.
- speakerYou know, like
- speakerthat involved like career, that
- speakerinvolved grades, that involved
- speakeryour ability to be taken seriously
- speakerin the church.
- speakerAnd I think oftentimes what isn't
- speakertalked about in the ordination
- speakerprocess at that time, because I
- speakerentered into seminary like that
- speakerFall a few months earlier
- speakerwas the GA that accepted LGBTQIA
- speakercandidates
- speakerand inquirers.
- speakerBut a large part of that process was
- speakerthere were several ways in which
- speakercommittees would deny the inquiry
- speakerprocess. Like, I got denied the
- speakerinquiry process
- speakerthe first time and it was some
- speakerexcuses like your membership isn't
- speakeractive enough.
- speakerWell what does that mean?
- speakerRight?
- speakerAnd I think we think about, you
- speakerknow, like just marriage or
- speakerjust those rights, but the financial
- speakerimplications of that.
- speakerSo, so my entire time
- speakerin seminary, I never received any
- speakerdenominational money.
- speakerRight? So like most, most
- speakerPresbyterian pastors are able to
- speakerget some significant amount
- speakerfrom the denomination just for being
- speakerPresbyterian and under care.
- speakerAnd I didn't receive any of
- speakerthat, and I know I'm not alone in
- speakerthat.
- speakerSo, so it goes.
- speakerI think we think about it as just
- speakersomething like personal or social
- speakeror having to do with the polity or
- speakertheology of the church and not
- speakerrealizing it actually is financial
- speakerimplications and people's lives.
- speakerAnd so there is about twenty seven
- speakerthousand dollars in money
- speakerthat I could receive in grants
- speakerthat I received in mostly
- speakerunsubsidized loans because of that
- speakerat that time, you know,
- speakerloans for graduate school
- speakerbecame unsubsidized after my second
- speakeryear in my second year of seminary
- speakerbecause of, you know, Congress and
- speakerpolitics and all that good stuff.
- speakerSo I think that
- speakerisn't talked about is the financial
- speakerimplications of the church,
- speakerright?
- speakerI actually haven't heard of that
- speakerbefore. I'm so glad you
- speakerbrought that up, yeah.
- speakerYeah, yeah, definitely.
- speakerSo like if you get denied, like you
- speakerknow, I became inquirer
- speakermy last year, I
- speakerbelieve of seminary
- speakerwhile trying to become inquirer
- speakerbecause I got denied my first time
- speakerin the Presbytery of St. Augustine.
- speakerAs I said, my membership wasn't
- speakeractive enough because I was at
- speakercollege.
- speakerIn a church, I'd grown up in my
- speakerentire life and I was outed in
- speakerthat process.
- speakerAnd then I had to switch
- speakerto to Mission Presbytery
- speakerin Central Texas
- speakerand who required you to be an
- speakeractive member for a year in a
- speakercongregation.
- speakerSo.
- speakerSo I had to become an active member
- speakerin the congregation I was already a
- speakerpart of as a seminary student, but
- speakercouldn't apply for another year.
- speakerSo all this time, I'm still in
- speakerseminary, right?
- speakerSo I'm getting denied so I can't
- speakerapply for any of any of these
- speakergrants.
- speakerAnd so and I know I cannot be
- speakerthe only one who's had that
- speakerexperience, right?
- speakerAnd so like, there's yeah, there's
- speakeran actual fiscal
- speakercost to that.
- speakerThat compounds over time.
- speakerRight? Because those loans compound
- speakeras well.
- speakerRight? So, yeah,
- speakerso that part really isn't talked
- speakerabout and it needs to be because it
- speakerhas a significant impact on
- speakerone's life and ministry and the
- speakerability and capacity to do ministry.
- speakerAbsolutely. I also think, like
- speakerit says a lot that
- speakerI mean, you just said that like the
- speakerpolity was officially changed
- speakera couple of months before you even
- speakerstarted seminary.
- speakerI know that was such an important
- speakerstep.
- speakerBut that's talked about a lot is
- speakerlike once, like the ordination like
- speakerofficial rules were changed in the
- speakerBook of Order.
- speakerIt was this huge achievement, but
- speakerlike, there's just still so much
- speakerwork that had to be done after
- speakerthat and so much work that still
- speakerneeds to be done
- speakerto make a truly inclusive.
- speakerInclusive church.
- speakerYeah, yeah.
- speakerLike polity's the first step it
- speakerreminds me of when Stokely
- speakerCarmichael and his famous speech
- speakerlike Black Power that he gave in
- speakerBerkeley.
- speakerAnd he talks about how
- speakerthe laws passed the Civil Rights
- speakerMovement. He goes, Those aren't for
- speakerme as a Black person.
- speakerHe goes, I know I'm a full human
- speakerbeing. Like, those aren't for me.
- speakerThose are for people who don't
- speakeracknowledge my humanity.
- speakerLike those are laws to remind them
- speakerthat I'm human. And I feel like
- speakerwhen you talk about these
- speakerachievements in the Church of
- speakerachieving recognition of somebody's
- speakerhumanity.
- speakerLike, yes, it's a big deal.
- speakerAnd like that's because the church
- speakerfailed to recognize humanity, right?
- speakerLike it's not.
- speakerThe church did not give me my queer
- speakeridentity or legitimate me as a queer
- speakerperson.
- speakerNo, like I've been legitimate.
- speakerThe church just caught up to
- speakerwhere God was already, right?
- speakerYeah. So that's one thing that like
- speakerthe framing of that is like, Yeah,
- speakercongratulations.
- speakerWe acknowledge the human being.
- speakerYeah.
- speakerAnd that is something to be very
- speakerproud about that for.
- speakerBut also it's like, really, though
- speakerlike, come on.
- speakerRight? Well, especially after like
- speakeractively denying your humanity
- speakerfor years and years and years and
- speakeryears.
- speakerYeah, that was very well said.
- speakerI liked how you put that. I, oh,
- speakeryeah, OK. So I was just going to
- speakerask, You've already just touched on
- speakerthis, obviously. But could
- speakeryou talk more about pursuing
- speakerordination in the Presbyterian
- speakerChurch,
- speakerif you have any other reflections on
- speakersome of the barriers you
- speakerexperienced?
- speakerI feel like the barriers
- speakerI experienced at first, and I
- speakerpursued it knowing full well that I
- speakerdon't know when.
- speakerSo I didn't go in with like a
- speakertimeline or expectation.
- speakerIt really was an act of faith and it
- speakerwas one of those things. I was like,
- speakerAll right God, this really is a,
- speakerI'm truly walking my faith, not by
- speakersight. I don't know when, but if
- speakerthis is a call, you got
- speakerme and I, and I think that
- speakeris continued to be very much true.
- speakerAnd I think I think in the histories
- speakerthat you'll get, you'll have a lot
- speakerof repeating patterns of ways
- speakerin which people have been denied.
- speakerAnd I think what I want to
- speakercontribute is
- speakerbecause those patterns existed for
- speakerme too. And very and for,
- speakerand I think of a timeline where I
- speakerwas in the movement in
- speakerterms of ordination,
- speakerI was denied in ways that were
- speakernuanced, right?
- speakerLike I feel like, you know 70s,
- speaker80s, 90s, pretty,
- speakeryou know, pretty in your face
- speakerearly 2000s, very
- speakerclear of the discrimination that was
- speakergoing on. And I think during this
- speakertime and transition, a very nuance
- speakerlike again, right, like you're my
- speakermembership wasn't active enough when
- speakerI was a college student, right?
- speakerLike, Come on, come
- speakeron, you know, like
- speakerthese kind of microaggressive ways
- speakerto prevent
- speakermy ability to participate fully into
- speakerordination and life in the church.
- speakerAnd in the midst of that,
- speakerthere is a stubborn persistence
- speakerof folks from all backgrounds,
- speakersocioeconomic, all racial
- speakerethnic identities
- speakerwho saw the injustice
- speakerand in their ways, you know, in the
- speakerlittle corner community or whatever
- speakerpower systems of influence that
- speakerthey had did what they could.
- speakerAnd that is actually what got me
- speakerthrough like little
- speakerfolks you know in the middle of
- speakercentral Texas
- speakerdoing what they can in their
- speakercommunities, whether it is a meal
- speakerone day, whether it was like, We see
- speakeryou keep it up, folks who are saying
- speakerit's on God's time I did kind of really want to punch them in the face
- speakerbecause it was like
- speakerthank you.
- speakerThat's for all of us.
- speakerBut this is not this is not a God's
- speakerproblem this is a human problem.
- speakerLike, those folks are actually
- speakerwhat got me through my ordination,
- speakerpeople seeing something in me that I
- speakercouldn't quite identify in myself.
- speakerThat's why I got on to More Light
- speakerlike I wasn't looking to be on a
- speakerMore Light board.
- speakerYou know, I was like, Oh, what's
- speakerthis? I
- speakerthe power of human curiosity.
- speakerI think of my curiosity and
- speakercuriosity of those who recognize
- speakermy humanity, and they may not
- speakereven fully have understood it.
- speakerI think that's a part of the dialog
- speakertoo that really bothers me is like,
- speakeryou have to fully understand, you
- speakerknow, everything that's going on in
- speakerthe particular context of oppression
- speakerto be of help, which just isn't
- speakertrue. If you understand that
- speakersomebody is a human being you might
- speakerget get a little bit wrong.
- speakerBut where is your heart and are you
- speakerwilling to lend a hand?
- speakerAnd it's been mostly from those
- speakerspaces that I have grown that
- speakerI have stretched, and that
- speakeropportunities were given to me.
- speakerYeah, they were given to me, and
- speakerI'm very, very thankful and try
- speakerto do the same whenever I can
- speakeryou know.
- speakerAnd that was a huge part of
- speakermy ordination experience that got
- speakerme through. It took me six and a
- speakerhalf years, but it got me through of
- speakerfolks, not fully
- speakerunderstanding, not even fully
- speakerappreciating what queer people went
- speakerthrough in the church. Not really
- speakereven knowing our stories of like
- speakergay camp and like
- speakerbeing anonymous space and
- speakerworking through our stuff and the
- speakertrauma that the church like put on
- speakersome and that
- speakerlike you know life.
- speakerBut but it's yeah, now I'm
- speakerjust rambling. But
- speakerI hope was that clear?
- speakerOf just, you know, there's the
- speakerlittle ways in which people
- speakercontribute to acknowledging
- speakerhumanity. That's what got me through
- speakerthe ordination yeah.
- speakerYeah, absolutely.
- speakerYeah.
- speakerAnd you mentioned a little bit about
- speakernot only kind of trying to like do
- speakerthe same for others whenever you
- speakercan, so I was going to ask if you
- speakercould talk more about like being on
- speakerthe board of More Light.
- speakerAnd I saw you also work with Parity
- speakerand kind of helped to plan the
- speakerannual retreats.
- speakerYeah.
- speakerOh my gosh, Parity I Parity
- speakerwhen I say gay camp, that's what I'm
- speakerreferring to is Parity.
- speakerYeah. I got on the More Light board.
- speakerThey were looking for more young
- speakerfolks, more queers of color.
- speakerAnd you know, I didn't know what I
- speakerwas doing Liz.
- speakerYou know, folks are like, Hey, we
- speakerthink you'd be a good fit for this
- speakerboard. And I was like, Oh, I've
- speakernever been on a board before, but
- speakerI've heard about More Light because
- speakerI've heard about gay camp.
- speakerAnd I'm excited for gay camp, and
- speakerthe More Light is a part of making
- speakerthis happen. Sure, I'm queer.
- speakerI'm like, it was just More Light
- speakerintroduced me to my queer
- speakerelders in the church.
- speakerI will forever give thanks to that.
- speakerFolks who paved the way before
- speakerme so that I can be as much of
- speakermyself as I could be in any space.
- speakerSo I feel honored to have met those
- speakerpeople and continue to be in
- speakerrelationship with you know
- speakerMichael Adee, with Bear Ride,
- speakerwith her wife Susan,
- speakerand Janie Spahr.
- speakerYou know
- speakerthose are those are elders who will
- speakercontinue to be mentors for me
- speakerand still are to this day.
- speakerLike I call it, I'm talking to
- speakerthem about like once a month, you
- speakerknow, to just check in on them
- speakerand tell me their stories.
- speakerYou know like, if you don't ask
- speakerqueer folks, we do not ask our
- speakerelders our stories, but we are so
- speakerabout waving that flag and talking
- speakerabout Stonewall.
- speakerBut they have stories.
- speakerAnd and so More Light was an
- speakerintroduction into that and realizing
- speakerthe agency and advocacy and the
- speakerlegacy of LGBTQ
- speakerhumanity and existence within the
- speakerchurch, and I didn't know about it
- speakerlike had I not gone to Austin
- speakerSeminary, identified as queer
- speakerand Mieke Vandersall
- speakermake a way for seminaries
- speakerto to
- speakerto.
- speakerNot single out, but to identify
- speakeropenly out queer
- speakerfolks and say that there's a space
- speakerfor you that you can go,
- speakeryou know, for a week and a half
- speakerevery year, and
- speakerwe're going to talk about how you
- speakerget through your ordination process.
- speakerWe are going to do some healing work
- speakeraround the damage of the church and
- speakerits damaging theology.
- speakerAnd we're also going to give you
- speakerqueer communities, chosen family
- speakerif your family is struggling as
- speakerwell.
- speakerThat was huge.
- speakerAnd to me, More Light was an
- speakerexpansion of that world.
- speakerDidn't just focus on LGBTQ
- speakercandidates and inquirers,
- speakerbut shifting the church.
- speakerAnd so More Light was my my
- speakermajor introduction into faith rooted
- speakerorganizing on a national
- speakerlevel.
- speakerAnd and I'm
- speakerforever thankful
- speakerbecause I think the more
- speakermarginalized one is in a particular
- speakerspace or context, since we're in the
- speakerchurch, like I knew going into
- speakerseminary, just being a Black woman,
- speakerlet alone being queer.
- speakerBut you know, I'm going to have to
- speakersacrifice to a certain degree
- speakeracademic pursuance
- speakerto be able to network.
- speakerSo that way, when I get out of
- speakerseminary, I'm known
- speakerso that.
- speakerI might get a job, you know, like I
- speakercan get a call.
- speakerAnd so More Light did that
- speakerand more and just introduced me to
- speakerthis rich legacy and history that I
- speakerdidn't even know and
- speakerhelped me to see opportunities.
- speakerI learned the way the church worked
- speakerand learned the way local
- speakerpresbyteries worked with Parity,
- speakertoo, because we would all get
- speakertogether
- speakerduring the summer undisclosed
- speakerlocation like we didn't even know
- speakerwhere we are going.
- speakerGay camp.
- speakerWe were told right before. Yeah at gay camp.
- speakerWe didn't know where we were going.
- speakerWe fundraised.
- speakerWe would get there.
- speakerWe had like keynote speakers.
- speakerWe had this time to just be free and
- speakerclear and frolic and
- speakerand we had to keep it quiet, right?
- speakerBecause we were still getting witch
- speakerhunted at the time, if somebody
- speakerouted us it would derail our process
- speakereven more.
- speakerBut it was such a space of laughter,
- speakerof joy, like renewal,
- speakerof being able to normalize
- speakerour emotions and what we were going
- speakerthrough and to strategically
- speakerplan so like we
- speakerwould learn and share stories
- speakerabout the ways in which different
- speakerpresbyteries across the denomination
- speakerwere blocking
- speakeror blocking ordination tracks.
- speakerAnd so we would be just like you
- speakerwould for like politics, right?
- speakerSo we would begin to come up with
- speakerlike counter defenses.
- speakerAnd so, you know, if we knew that
- speakersomebody was about to go on the
- speakerfloor of presbytery to be examined,
- speakerwe would examine and use out
- speakerall of the language that was used
- speakerfrom that presbytery around the
- speakercountry, anything possible.
- speakerAnd so we would train and drill
- speakereach other
- speakerfor those examination questions,
- speakerright, that we would expect.
- speakerSo that way we were prepared so that
- speakerwe we knew
- speakerit was it that it was
- speakeras intensive as it sounds, and it
- speakerwas also playful and wonderful,
- speakercause it was a safe space.
- speakerYeah, yep.
- speakerRight.
- speakerBut we would drill each other and we
- speakerwould learn who was coming up on our
- speakercommittees on ministry and what
- speakertheir theological stances were.
- speakerLike we would literally study
- speakerthe behavior, study the
- speakertheology and then create
- speakerand then create counter approaches.
- speakerSo that way we could push a little
- speakerbit further, never knowing when we
- speakerwould get ordained.
- speakerAnd right like, I'm thirty two years
- speakerold, like people think like this
- speakerhappened so long ago
- speakerand I'm not even 32, I'll be thirty
- speakertwo in like a month and a half. Like,
- speakeryou know, like, it really wasn't
- speakerthat long ago that this stuff
- speakerhappened. Right?
- speakerYeah, I was going to ask if you
- speakercould clarify like what like, maybe
- speakerthe dates were like what, some of
- speakerthe years or that you went to a
- speakerqueer camp
- speakerYeah I went to queer camp.
- speakerOr like the first few times you
- speakerwent? Maybe.
- speakerYeah.
- speakerLike so this is like 20,
- speakerlike 2012
- speakerthrough 20, like
- speaker14, 15.
- speakerWow. OK.
- speakerSo it really was not that long ago.
- speakerNot that long ago.
- speakerNo, not at all.
- speakerNo, no.
- speakerAnd like and it ranged
- speakerfrom like, you know, folks
- speakerwho are in their 50s
- speakerand like who'd been fighting, you
- speakerknow, damn near longer than some of
- speakerus had been alive to be ordained.
- speakerSo. So it was a very diverse
- speakerpopulation in many ways.
- speakerAnd I think a lot of
- speakerthe LGBTQ pastors that
- speakeryou see today, at least that were in
- speakermy generation of
- speakereither ordination or seminary
- speakerattendance has a huge thanks to do
- speakerwith Mieke Vandersall and that.
- speakerAnd that's like a huge,
- speakerhuge thing. So yeah, I was a part of
- speakerParity's planning
- speakerfor, I think, two years in a row.
- speakerDefinitely more than one.
- speakerSo two years in a row
- speakerand our involvement in the New York
- speakerPride Parade was great and just
- speakerit was very helpful because it
- speakerreminded us that we weren't alone.
- speakerI think that's the thing is very
- speakerisolating at times.
- speakerAnd Austin, I
- speakergive a huge thanks to
- speakerto the admissions of Austin Seminary
- speakerwhen I was there because I think.
- speakerThat beloved human being saw
- speakerqueers in the church
- speakerand recruited intentionally
- speakerqueers who are trying
- speakerto get ordained.
- speakerAnd so this is what I guess this
- speakeris. What I mean is like little
- speakerpeople do, not little people, the
- speakerpeople doing their parts and little
- speakeraspects to the culture shift.
- speakerBecause now now there's a contingent
- speakerof us. Now you have to.
- speakerYou can't just ignore, nor can
- speakersomebody be isolated, right?
- speakerThere is a group of us queers when I
- speakerwent to seminary.
- speakerAnd so, yeah, it was.
- speakerI'm thankful, I'm thankful.
- speakerAnd yeah, I wanted to clarify a
- speakerlittle bit, so it sounded like the
- speakerinvite to find out about gay
- speakercamp was kind of word
- speakerof mouth?
- speakerYes, yeah.
- speakerOkay.
- speakerSo much was word of mouth, because
- speakerbecause, you know, it really was
- speakerscary like you didn't know.
- speakerAnd if you told the wrong person it
- speakerreally like again, you can lose
- speakerwhatever financial, if you got any
- speakerfinancial allocations, you could
- speakerlose that. You can.
- speakerHeaven forbid where your family
- speakerwas or what your family did or
- speakerdidn't know about you being out.
- speakerWhat did that mean about your church
- speakerand being an inquirer candidate
- speakerbecause if your church didn't agree,
- speakerwell then you lose your church
- speakersponsorship. There's no way you can
- speakerget ordained.
- speakerSo all of this happened.
- speakerWord of mouth, you know, once
- speakeronce you're in, you're in.
- speakerBut I mean, traditionally in the
- speakerways in which queers can queer
- speakercommunities outside of the church
- speakerkind of gathered and
- speakerand became chosen families so
- speakeris true inside
- speakerthe church.
- speakerAnd then you have this like double
- speakerdouble-blind in the church because
- speakerto a certain degree, you know,
- speakerbecause the church has been so
- speakeroppressive towards queer people
- speakerlike I always remind folks like the
- speakerchurch is the number one oppressor
- speakerof queer folks that
- speakeryou also have this double isolation
- speakerwith queer Christians or queer
- speakerpeople of faith in general.
- speakerYou know that because
- speakeryou're queer and you're Christian.
- speakerYou know, secular queers don't trust
- speakeryou, right?
- speakerOr they think something's wrong with
- speakeryou.
- speakerAnd don't think you're quote unquote
- speakerwoke enough or they think that
- speakeryou are denying parts of your
- speakerhumanity without that,
- speakerexcuse me, without that
- speakercuriosity that I talked about
- speakerearlier that I think is so important
- speakerto human connection and
- speakerrelationship.
- speakerWithout being curious of like
- speakeryou're queer and Christian, why is
- speakerthat? Because that doesn't make
- speakersense to me, I'm adverse to that.
- speakerBut but typically in my experience,
- speakerthose questions aren't asked.
- speakerIt's like, Oh, you're queer and
- speakerChristian, like, you're dumb or
- speakeryou're just like, totally
- speakerin the colonial thing, or you're
- speakerstill trapped in your own oppression
- speakerwhen you know it's not actually
- speakerreally true, right?
- speakerSo, yeah, yeah, so
- speakerI think those those spaces for
- speakerqueers in the church were
- speakerso important
- speakerfor all of those reasons for
- speakerthe discrimination within the
- speakerchurch.
- speakerThe discrimination in society
- speakerand also the discrimination within
- speakerthe broader queer community
- speakeras are related to church, right?
- speakerBecause we're looked at as,
- speakeryou know, we as in queers of
- speakerfaith, can be looked at as
- speakercoconspirators with the oppressor.
- speakerRight.
- speakerWhen when in fact, it's not quite
- speakertrue. And it's easier, I realize
- speakerto instigate change
- speakerwhen you're within a system
- speakerthan shouting from outside it
- speakerbecause they can't, you know, they
- speakercan't. The church can't overlook me
- speakeras a cradle Presbyterian like
- speakerthey actually have to contend with
- speakerme because
- speakerit's not like I don't know what I'm
- speakertalking about, you know,
- speakerand there's power there, and there's
- speakera way to that that makes
- speakerspace for healing instead of
- speakerothering us versus them, which gets
- speakerso tiring.
- speakerIt's just it's it's
- speakerthere's a road to healing that
- speakerI think is very important.
- speakerYeah.
- speakerSo I don't keep you too long
- speakertoday, but I did have my
- speakerlast question here, I wanted to talk
- speakera little bit about some of
- speakerthe work you've been doing this past
- speakeryear, particularly
- speakerI know I saw you did like
- speakerat least you gave like
- speakerone like sermon as part of
- speakerAbolitionist Advent.
- speakerAnd I think I also saw your name
- speakerlisted on the website.
- speakerI don't know if you could talk a
- speakerlittle bit more about like what
- speakerAbolitionist Advent does, what
- speakerthe mission is, how that came about?
- speakerYeah, I think about it's like a
- speakerbrainchild of, I think, Alex Patchin
- speakerMcNeil of More Light Presbyterians,
- speakerand I think a little bit
- speakerof Emily Brewer of Presbyterian
- speakerPeace Fellowship,
- speakerAshley DeTar-Birt.
- speakerThere's a whole bunch of folks
- speakerthat wanted to do something as
- speakerrelated to the church and abolition.
- speakerAnd what do we mean and how do we do
- speakerfaith-rooted organizing, mobilizing,
- speakermobilizing people of faith to have
- speakerconversations about abolition?
- speakerWhat does that mean? What does that
- speakerpractically look like and
- speakerhow to match our theologies
- speakerwith that? Again, being
- speakerintersectional, right?
- speakerIf we believe in LGBTQ
- speakerrights. Like if we believe in
- speakerwomen's rights, if we're going to
- speakersay Black Lives Matter, Stop
- speakerAsian Hate, well, then we actually
- speakerdo need to consider abolition
- speakerand what that looks like.
- speakerAnd so
- speakerit's it's become like a thinking
- speakerworking processing group of how do
- speakerwe make it real?
- speakerSo it's very much still an
- speakerincubation stage.
- speakerYou only meet twice a month and
- speakeras as not just as Presbyterians,
- speakerbut we have Lutherans involved.
- speakerWe got UCC folks involved, we got
- speakerAmerican Baptists involved.
- speakerYou know, it's it's a very
- speakerecumenical space.
- speakerSo it's it's becoming.
- speakerI'm excited for where it's going,
- speakerbut it's becoming. We're trying to
- speakerfigure out what to do and how does
- speakerthis match and how we how do we, you
- speakerknow Presbyterians
- speakerlike something really neat and
- speakerclear? You know, it's like they want
- speakera three point sermon, a very clear
- speakerthesis, three points and then an
- speakeraction item, and so we're
- speakertrying to
- speakermake a very clear thesis
- speakerthree points and decide, does
- speakerthis need an action item?
- speakerLike, is this more education, right?
- speakerLike, how do we have this more
- speakeremergent process occur
- speakerin emergence and Presbyterianism
- speakeris a struggle, right?
- speakerBut yeah that's some of the work I've been
- speakerdoing there for about a year and
- speakerbeginning conversations and
- speakercreating like theological frameworks
- speakerin context for that, there's
- speakera Spahr Reconciliation Initiative
- speakerwith Janie Spahr at San Francisco
- speakerTheological Seminary, which is now
- speakerUniversity of the Redlands Graduate
- speakerSchool of Theology home in San
- speakerFrancisco Theological Seminary.
- speakerThe biggest mouthful ever.
- speakerWow. OK.
- speakerYeah. Working with them on
- speakerhow to make that campus
- speakermore LGBTQ inclusive
- speakerand an open and affirming
- speakerin ways that you know they might not
- speakerhave been in the past.
- speakerAnd that's kind of like an ongoing
- speakerkind of thing like as needed.
- speakerYou know, like call me up as needed.
- speakerTo help steer
- speakeror consult, and
- speakerthen you know over the past year,
- speakerI've actually transitioned out of
- speakerI'm transitioning
- speakerout of parish
- speakerministry into chaplaincy.
- speakerI thought that's really work kind of.
- speakerI like it better. I think it fits my
- speakerpersonality a little better.
- speakerSo I've been a hospital
- speakerchaplain over at Stanford Hospital,
- speakerfinishing my CBE credits
- speakerduring the pandemic.
- speakerSo for the past year, so doing a
- speakerlot of.
- speakerYeah, yeah,
- speakerso doing a lot of first responder
- speakerwork, really
- speakerfocusing on moral distress and moral
- speakerinjury
- speakerand how chaplaincy and
- speakerspiritual emotional care can meet
- speakerthose needs.
- speakerAnd you know what a better context
- speakerthe pandemic didn't expect it.
- speakerSo, yeah, yeah, and the goal not
- speakereventually be a hospital chaplain,
- speakerbut you
- speakerknow, starting in the fall, I'll
- speakerbe a university
- speakerwide working with STEM students
- speakerin particular on moral
- speakerdistress, moral injuries, spiritual
- speakerand emotional care to
- speakerkind of get down some of those
- speakernumbers of depression,
- speakerof anxiety that impair
- speakerand impact functioning.
- speakerSo my hope as as as
- speakertechnology continues, you know,
- speakerbeing out here in the West Coast and
- speakerhaving spent some time in Silicon
- speakerValley
- speakerthat there needs to be
- speakersome, some chaplaincy,
- speakersome spiritual emotional care to
- speakertechnological innovation, right
- speakerlike, artificial intelligence,
- speakerblockchain technologies, a lot of
- speakerthese things are done in a very
- speakerclosed bubble, mostly men, mostly
- speakerwhite or Asian upper
- speakermiddle class or wealthy, designing
- speakera lot of things that impact the
- speakerworld at a scale never quite
- speakerbefore seen.
- speakerAnd so
- speakerI realize that my entire
- speakerrole in ministry, my life's work.
- speakerI actually feel confident enough to
- speakersay that is moral
- speakerdistress and moral injury in the
- speakertechnology sector.
- speakerSo working with.
- speakerAssociation of Professional
- speakerChaplains and using
- speakercurating my chaplaincy training,
- speakerbecause right now it's mostly right,
- speakerlike a hospital chaplaincy and
- speakerjail chaplaincy, or
- speakerprison ministry.
- speakerBut industry ministry is
- speakerlike mostly in the south, in a very
- speakerparticular like evangelical context,
- speakerand I'm just trying to meet both
- speakerspiritual and emotional needs as an
- speakerinterfaith chaplain, which works
- speakera little bit more than my universalism
- speakerand my non-substitutionary atonement
- speakertheology. Oh,
- speakerso so yeah, that's
- speakerthat's the goal. And that's really
- speakerwhere I'm setting my sights on
- speakerand found great support within San
- speakerJose Presbytery to do that
- speakerand great support with
- speakermy supervisor at Stanford.
- speakerAnd, you know, with folks in the
- speakerqueer community that continue to
- speakerback and support this work.
- speakerYeah, so so I'm excited for that,
- speakerbecause it's important, it's
- speakerimportant.
- speakerYeah, that's so interesting and
- speakerimportant. Definitely.
- speakerI'd never really heard about it
- speakerbefore.
- speakerAre there are a lot of other people
- speakerdoing that kind of work or doing
- speakerkind of a new? Okay.
- speakerNo it's a new thing. Yeah, and I don't
- speakerthink I'm the only one, but it's
- speakernot. It's not a majority.
- speakerI don't even think it's a healthy
- speakerminority, but, you
- speakerknow, just continuing to carve out a
- speakerstone trying to use water instead of
- speakera chisel.
- speakerBut but yeah, it's a need that I
- speakersaw when I got ordained
- speakerto First Presbyterian Palo Alto, I
- speakerwas trying to understand my
- speakercongregations.
- speakerI'm used to like upper middle class,
- speakerlike wealthy white environment,
- speakerlike the suburbs, it's not, you
- speakerknow, I grew up in that part of
- speakerGeorgia, so like that wasn't an
- speakerissue for me.
- speakerBut I was like, What is going on
- speakerwith this culture in Silicon Valley?
- speakerLike what is happening?
- speakerSo I just like to
- speakerfollow where the money is. And so I
- speakerjust did the research what's the
- speakereconomic driver in Silicon Valley?
- speakerAnd I realized, Oh, it's artificial
- speakerintelligence, oh it's blockchain
- speakertechnology. All right.
- speakerSo that's also shaping the culture,
- speakerright? So I need to understand this
- speakerto better minister to my people and
- speakermy flock. And what I found is that,
- speakeryou know, contrary to popular
- speakerbelief, Silicon Valley is a Bible
- speakerbelt. Like there are, there are
- speakerchurches, there are synagogues
- speakerthat are temples all
- speakerthroughout Silicon Valley.
- speakerIt is a rumor.
- speakerReally?
- speakerLet me dispel the lie.
- speakerYes, they're actually very
- speakerspiritual, very religious.
- speakerThere's a huge, beautiful,
- speakerprogressive interfaith like
- speakerclergy contingent in Silicon Valley.
- speakerThe idea that folks in Silicon
- speakerValley aren't spiritual or religious
- speakeris just a lie. It's a hoax.
- speakerIt's stupid.
- speakerI don't even like I've lived
- speakerthat certain people.
- speakerIt's real. You know, and by it's
- speakerreal, like their belief and faith
- speakerand like spirituality, and it's
- speakerit's strong.
- speakerAnd so I found very interesting is
- speakerlike, why aren't my other
- speakercolleagues? Why aren't we talking
- speakerabout technology?
- speakerLike, why aren't we talking about
- speakerthe impact and its morals?
- speakerThere's like a major gap like what
- speakerI'm talking about. I'm not.
- speakerI mean, I'm pretty quick, like,
- speakeryeah, I'm a brilliant person.
- speakerI'm not going to put myself down.
- speakerBut also like, that's a low-hanging
- speakerfruit, right?
- speakerSo and to me, that's another
- speakerexample of the church's disconnect
- speakerwith the communities that they
- speakerserve, and the community that I
- speakerserved just happened to be Silicon
- speakerValley.
- speakerAnd so that's
- speakerwhat reframed my mind.
- speakerYou know, church still has this
- speakerexpectation. Will people come to us
- speakerbusting? Did
- speakerJesus sit somewhere and say, Come to
- speakerme? No,
- speakerhis ministry was the exact opposite.
- speakerHe, like, went out to people. So this is why I
- speakerlike chaplaincy, right?
- speakerBecause I'm going out to people.
- speakerIt is consent based.
- speakerI'm not giving you dogma.
- speakerI'm meeting your spiritual and
- speakeremotional needs.
- speakerAnd also, just like Jesus, I go.
- speakerYou know, I come and meet you where you're at. I
- speakergo, and you got the synagogue.
- speakerYou got the church there.
- speakerYou got the temple to like continue
- speakeron your education, if you need.
- speakerBut I'm able to hit that heart space
- speakerfor a very particular moment in
- speakertime.
- speakerAnd that, to me, is really valuable
- speakerwork.
- speakerThat's the work. That's the ministry
- speakerthat I'm going to be doing.
- speakerAnd ultimately, that's the ministry
- speakerthat I received as a queer person
- speakerin the church, right?
- speakerLike, folks would come to me and
- speakergive me like these little moments of
- speakerpastoral care and the spiritual
- speakeremotional care
- speakeryou know, in these beautiful, tender
- speakerways. And that compounded over
- speakertime and it kept me in the church.
- speakerYou know.
- speakerIt's like, OK, like there's
- speakersomething to this.
- speakerMaybe a little something there yeah.
- speakerYeah, yeah, it's worth
- speakerit.
- speakerOK, it's worth it.
- speakerBut it was those little moments
- speakerover time. So that's
- speakerthat's where my call to ministry is,
- speakerand that's really want to dedicate
- speakermy life's work to for the
- speakerforeseeable future.
- speakerI think that's where I want to anchor and put my little hat on.
- speakerWell that's so great. I feel like I
- speakerwant to interview you again in like
- speakerten years and see
- speakersee how it's going.
- speakerAll right.
- speakerJust compacting the history being
- speakermade yeah.
- speakerYeah any way I can be of help.
- speakerYeah, well, I think we should
- speakerprobably wrap things up here pretty
- speakersoon, but is there anything I just
- speakerwant to give you time for anything
- speakeryou thought of while we've been
- speakertalking or anything that comes to
- speakermind that you want to make sure is
- speakersaid?
- speakerNo, no.
- speakerI mean, I think there's something
- speakeryou said about keeping it up, you
- speakerknow, walking by faith and
- speakernot by sight.
- speakerI think of like that scripture for
- speakerGod's a lamp unto my feet and a
- speakerlight into my path.
- speakerAnd I was talking to my
- speakercounselor the other day and she's
- speakerlike, Yeah, that that that lamp is
- speakera glow really is just at your feet
- speakerand you know, she's right, she's so
- speakerstill right.
- speakerBut I think my hope is the arc
- speakerof all the stories and narratives
- speakerthat you hear that
- speakerit really is this walk by faith and
- speakernot by sight that that
- speakerhas given so much surprise
- speakerin my life and so much
- speakeropportunity and
- speakerwhere there has been so many places
- speakerthat say no and so many places
- speakerhave appeared apparent
- speakerscarcity that there has been
- speakerabundance that only God has made
- speakerpossible. I really do believe that,
- speakeryeah, faith makes a way out
- speakerof no way. It's all just,
- speakerand it continues to be so and so.
- speakerI hope that that arc both
- speakerexplicitly and implicitly
- speakershows its way through all of these
- speakerstories because I think
- speakerthere's miraculous in each and every
- speakersingle one of us and hearing one
- speakeranother's narratives allows
- speakerallows that spread of that, which is
- speakermiraculous in the
- speakermundane like to come
- speakerabout, which is really beautiful.
- speakerWell, thank you so much for talking
- speakerwith me and sharing your story.
- speakerI'll go ahead and stop recording
- speakerhere.