Annanda Barclay oral history, 2021.

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    Well, Annanda, I was just going to
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    go ahead and start off by asking you
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    when you first felt a call to
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    ministry.
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    Yeah, I was studying for my LSATs
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    in college
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    and
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    and I had a Wesleyan moment
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    of a strange, warm feeling.
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    And
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    I I honestly
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    just talked to God and I was like,
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    All right, I don't feel like I'm
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    like, I'm pastor material
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    at all, you know, typical college
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    student ran track and a
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    tiny little liberal arts school,
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    like, loved to party, like loved to
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    just live life. So what I associated
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    with ministry was so
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    not so, but antithetical enough
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    to the lifestyle that I had
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    happily been living in and chosen.
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    And the examples
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    of ministry that I saw on campus
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    were like so,
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    so narrow and uninviting
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    to the multiplicity of the human
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    experience.
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    And so I made God a promise and
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    said, if this is real,
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    I have to unequivocally
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    get into everywhere that I apply
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    and then and then I'll go
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    for it. But otherwise I'm going
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    right into law school straight like,
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    continuing with the LSATs and I got
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    in.
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    I only applied to two places
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    and I got in so I was like, All
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    right, let's I don't know what
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    you're doing with me, but I'll roll
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    with it.
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    So.
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    Did you grow up going to church?
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    Yes. So I'm a I'm a cradle
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    Presbyterian.
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    My grandparents on my dad's side
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    came from Jamaica and they landed
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    in Chicago
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    to a historical African American
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    Presbyterian Church.
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    And still around to this day.
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    So I was baptized
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    in the same church as my dad and my
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    aunt, Pine Avenue United
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    Presbyterian Church is a
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    historically African American Presbyterian
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    Church in the Austin Neighborhood of Chicago.
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    So, yeah, I grew up Presby
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    and like didn't even know the
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    Presbyterian Church was majority
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    white until like middle school, and
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    I moved to
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    Georgia like North Atlanta suburbs
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    now called Johns Creek and then grew
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    up in my teenage years at Johns
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    Creek Presbyterian Church is what
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    it's now called. It was called
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    Church of the Hills when I was there
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    and then like discovered Montreat
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    and like all these other
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    denominational resources.
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    So and just the bigger
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    aspects of the church and realized,
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    Oh my gosh, Presbyterianism is
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    significantly bigger than I imagined
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    and had stayed in the church.
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    I've experimented with other like
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    denominations and even like outside
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    of Christianity.
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    So I do dabble in a little like
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    Buddhism.
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    I think Hinduism's got something to
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    say that I'm definitely about, Bahai
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    I think is a really neat religious
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    tradition.
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    So I I'm not necessarily
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    like trans religious,
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    but I mean, I dabble I dabble
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    universal universalism.
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    So, yeah, so grew up Presbyterian.
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    Well, maybe this is a good place to
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    ask then.
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    Like growing up, did you know kind
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    of about the movement for LGBTQ
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    inclusion in the church?
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    Were you aware of all the
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    denominational policies about LGBTQ
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    pastors being ordained?
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    No.
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    I mean, that wasn't even talked
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    about, especially in Black
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    communities that was definitely not
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    talked about.
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    I came from a more
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    conservative family, and my
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    family is considered the hippie
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    liberals because women could be
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    ordained and we were Presbyterian
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    and my little, in my immediate
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    family right, coming from a Pentecostal
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    background.
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    And then growing up in Georgia, that
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    wasn't a thing. So I was in the
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    closet until seminary
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    and like struggled.
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    I came out really early in seminary,
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    like my first semester, but I
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    didn't. I didn't realize one could
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    be Christian and be queer, and I had
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    to go through my own process of.
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    You know for a while, I was like, Oh
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    my gosh, am I possessed, am I like? I went through so many different
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    phase.
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    Like, is there something wrong with
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    me?
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    Does God not like, like everything
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    I've heard was so negative.
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    But it wasn't until I actually fell
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    in love for the first time, and I
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    actually understood what love songs
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    are talking about. Beforehand they
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    didn't have the same resonance.
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    I was like, All right, you know
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    you're in love.
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    But when I actually did experience
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    that love, I was like, Oh my gosh,
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    this makes so much sense.
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    And it felt right in my body.
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    And and when I came to the
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    conclusion in seminary
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    that my issue actually isn't with
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    God, it's with people.
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    I was like, All right, this makes a
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    lot of sense, but I have had
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    to do, and on occasion still have to
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    do some of that work of internalized
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    homophobia. And I think
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    being a woman of color
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    in particular, of course like
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    identifying like cisgender
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    like female woman.
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    But in particular, my my background
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    was like African American and
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    Afro-Caribbean, helped
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    me to understand the parallels
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    of the sin of othering.
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    And so I was able to place
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    it like racial injustice
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    in my experience of racial injustice
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    and the ways in which those
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    injustices overlap with LGBTQIA,
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    like
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    queer injustice, and
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    being able to understand a little
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    bit of the difference. So I think
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    that helped to accelerate, at least
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    for me, some of my understandings,
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    like once I got, Oh, this is this
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    is a people issue, this is not a God
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    issue. Like, I was able to take off
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    from there and, you know,
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    became a little bit of a progressive
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    fundamentalist, as I like to say.
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    So I'm like, always all right, You're
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    a recovering progressive
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    fundamentalist,
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    not being not trying to police
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    people as they try to explore and
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    expand their worldviews, right?
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    Because I was
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    a policer are for a hot minute in
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    seminary, good God.
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    And yeah, yeah, just
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    bringing my family along, which
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    I mean took years and
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    and also learning where they're
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    coming from, too, because as I came
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    out and my whole world view changed
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    and rediscovering myself and
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    and like acknowledging when I came
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    out
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    in seminary, the context of
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    queerness that I came out was in a
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    white queer context, right?
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    So like all of these markers of
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    queer belonging were white markers
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    of queer belonging, you know, like
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    the L Word.
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    And that's a very particular
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    context, right?
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    Like, you're like, you don't know
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    the L Word, you don't know this, and
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    it's kind of like, like, No, I
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    don't.
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    And like.
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    I'm Black, you know, so is
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    a lot of like this intersectional
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    journey that's been a part of my
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    queerness.
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    And so eventually, you know,
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    it kind of got to this spot kind
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    of how I relate to myself in terms
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    of race, in terms LGBTQ.
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    Like, however I design define myself
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    as a queer person like that
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    adds to the queer canon.
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    And I feel that way as like
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    a, as a, you know, a Black person, however,
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    I define myself within my Blackness
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    like that adds to the Black canon.
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    No matter what queer people say, no
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    matter what Black people say, no
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    matter like.
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    Being me is what adds to the canon
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    of whatever intersections and
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    identities I'm a part of.
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    So the church is just
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    so averse to talking about, desire
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    and like
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    physicality, it's just,
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    it just does it such a disservice.
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    You know, it's like
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    yeah, it's pretty obnoxious
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    you know in a hetero way or in a
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    homo, in a
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    queer way.
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    That's very true, yeah.
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    Right?
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    It's like you have hormones.
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    They're a natural part of you.
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    How do you how do you
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    acknowledge that without denying,
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    how do you have healthy boundaries?
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    How do you know, like healthy ways,
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    love, healthy touch,
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    consent?
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    You know,
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    Yes.
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    It's not rocket science.
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    It's very human and like to
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    deny that part of our humanity, I
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    think, is a huge problem.
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    And in a
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    way that the church has contributed
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    to a lot of pain, suffering, and
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    sin, in society
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    and within one another that
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    really doesn't have to be there, you
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    know?
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    The Bible's pretty open about a lot
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    of that stuff.
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    Yeah.
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    Is that kind of the attitude
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    that, well, I just I wanted to ask
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    what it was like going to Austin
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    Presbyterian Theological Seminary?
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    Were there like resources for LGBTQ
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    students, resources
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    for pastors seeking ordination that
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    were LGBTQ?
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    I mean, yes or no, we were when I
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    was at Austin, we were still putting
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    the fight together.
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    There was a queer and gay alliance.
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    I mean, there was tension between
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    the administration like we were
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    still doing a lot of
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    a lot of queer activism on campus.
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    We were fighting to make sure
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    because marriage still wasn't
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    around. Of course, the seminary
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    wanted the denominational policy.
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    And so there were queer couples
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    on campus. So fighting to for queer
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    couples to live together
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    on campus like to
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    eventually get married in the
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    chapel, right?
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    Like pushing the administration
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    and understanding that there are
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    risks to pushing the administration
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    right? There are risks pushing your
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    professor.
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    You know, like
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    that involved like career, that
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    involved grades, that involved
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    your ability to be taken seriously
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    in the church.
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    And I think oftentimes what isn't
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    talked about in the ordination
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    process at that time, because I
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    entered into seminary like that
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    Fall a few months earlier
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    was the GA that accepted LGBTQIA
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    candidates
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    and inquirers.
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    But a large part of that process was
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    there were several ways in which
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    committees would deny the inquiry
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    process. Like, I got denied the
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    inquiry process
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    the first time and it was some
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    excuses like your membership isn't
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    active enough.
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    Well what does that mean?
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    Right?
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    And I think we think about, you
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    know, like just marriage or
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    just those rights, but the financial
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    implications of that.
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    So, so my entire time
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    in seminary, I never received any
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    denominational money.
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    Right? So like most, most
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    Presbyterian pastors are able to
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    get some significant amount
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    from the denomination just for being
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    Presbyterian and under care.
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    And I didn't receive any of
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    that, and I know I'm not alone in
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    that.
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    So, so it goes.
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    I think we think about it as just
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    something like personal or social
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    or having to do with the polity or
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    theology of the church and not
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    realizing it actually is financial
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    implications and people's lives.
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    And so there is about twenty seven
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    thousand dollars in money
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    that I could receive in grants
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    that I received in mostly
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    unsubsidized loans because of that
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    at that time, you know,
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    loans for graduate school
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    became unsubsidized after my second
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    year in my second year of seminary
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    because of, you know, Congress and
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    politics and all that good stuff.
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    So I think that
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    isn't talked about is the financial
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    implications of the church,
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    right?
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    I actually haven't heard of that
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    before. I'm so glad you
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    brought that up, yeah.
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    Yeah, yeah, definitely.
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    So like if you get denied, like you
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    know, I became inquirer
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    my last year, I
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    believe of seminary
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    while trying to become inquirer
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    because I got denied my first time
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    in the Presbytery of St. Augustine.
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    As I said, my membership wasn't
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    active enough because I was at
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    college.
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    In a church, I'd grown up in my
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    entire life and I was outed in
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    that process.
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    And then I had to switch
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    to to Mission Presbytery
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    in Central Texas
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    and who required you to be an
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    active member for a year in a
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    congregation.
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    So.
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    So I had to become an active member
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    in the congregation I was already a
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    part of as a seminary student, but
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    couldn't apply for another year.
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    So all this time, I'm still in
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    seminary, right?
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    So I'm getting denied so I can't
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    apply for any of any of these
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    grants.
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    And so and I know I cannot be
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    the only one who's had that
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    experience, right?
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    And so like, there's yeah, there's
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    an actual fiscal
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    cost to that.
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    That compounds over time.
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    Right? Because those loans compound
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    as well.
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    Right? So, yeah,
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    so that part really isn't talked
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    about and it needs to be because it
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    has a significant impact on
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    one's life and ministry and the
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    ability and capacity to do ministry.
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    Absolutely. I also think, like
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    it says a lot that
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    I mean, you just said that like the
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    polity was officially changed
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    a couple of months before you even
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    started seminary.
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    I know that was such an important
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    step.
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    But that's talked about a lot is
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    like once, like the ordination like
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    official rules were changed in the
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    Book of Order.
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    It was this huge achievement, but
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    like, there's just still so much
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    work that had to be done after
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    that and so much work that still
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    needs to be done
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    to make a truly inclusive.
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    Inclusive church.
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    Yeah, yeah.
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    Like polity's the first step it
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    reminds me of when Stokely
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    Carmichael and his famous speech
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    like Black Power that he gave in
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    Berkeley.
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    And he talks about how
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    the laws passed the Civil Rights
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    Movement. He goes, Those aren't for
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    me as a Black person.
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    He goes, I know I'm a full human
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    being. Like, those aren't for me.
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    Those are for people who don't
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    acknowledge my humanity.
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    Like those are laws to remind them
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    that I'm human. And I feel like
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    when you talk about these
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    achievements in the Church of
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    achieving recognition of somebody's
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    humanity.
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    Like, yes, it's a big deal.
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    And like that's because the church
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    failed to recognize humanity, right?
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    Like it's not.
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    The church did not give me my queer
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    identity or legitimate me as a queer
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    person.
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    No, like I've been legitimate.
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    The church just caught up to
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    where God was already, right?
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    Yeah. So that's one thing that like
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    the framing of that is like, Yeah,
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    congratulations.
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    We acknowledge the human being.
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    Yeah.
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    And that is something to be very
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    proud about that for.
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    But also it's like, really, though
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    like, come on.
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    Right? Well, especially after like
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    actively denying your humanity
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    for years and years and years and
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    years.
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    Yeah, that was very well said.
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    I liked how you put that. I, oh,
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    yeah, OK. So I was just going to
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    ask, You've already just touched on
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    this, obviously. But could
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    you talk more about pursuing
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    ordination in the Presbyterian
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    Church,
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    if you have any other reflections on
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    some of the barriers you
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    experienced?
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    I feel like the barriers
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    I experienced at first, and I
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    pursued it knowing full well that I
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    don't know when.
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    So I didn't go in with like a
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    timeline or expectation.
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    It really was an act of faith and it
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    was one of those things. I was like,
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    All right God, this really is a,
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    I'm truly walking my faith, not by
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    sight. I don't know when, but if
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    this is a call, you got
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    me and I, and I think that
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    is continued to be very much true.
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    And I think I think in the histories
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    that you'll get, you'll have a lot
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    of repeating patterns of ways
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    in which people have been denied.
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    And I think what I want to
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    contribute is
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    because those patterns existed for
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    me too. And very and for,
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    and I think of a timeline where I
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    was in the movement in
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    terms of ordination,
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    I was denied in ways that were
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    nuanced, right?
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    Like I feel like, you know 70s,
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    80s, 90s, pretty,
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    you know, pretty in your face
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    early 2000s, very
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    clear of the discrimination that was
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    going on. And I think during this
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    time and transition, a very nuance
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    like again, right, like you're my
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    membership wasn't active enough when
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    I was a college student, right?
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    Like, Come on, come
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    on, you know, like
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    these kind of microaggressive ways
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    to prevent
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    my ability to participate fully into
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    ordination and life in the church.
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    And in the midst of that,
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    there is a stubborn persistence
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    of folks from all backgrounds,
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    socioeconomic, all racial
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    ethnic identities
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    who saw the injustice
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    and in their ways, you know, in the
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    little corner community or whatever
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    power systems of influence that
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    they had did what they could.
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    And that is actually what got me
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    through like little
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    folks you know in the middle of
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    central Texas
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    doing what they can in their
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    communities, whether it is a meal
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    one day, whether it was like, We see
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    you keep it up, folks who are saying
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    it's on God's time I did kind of really want to punch them in the face
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    because it was like
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    thank you.
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    That's for all of us.
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    But this is not this is not a God's
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    problem this is a human problem.
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    Like, those folks are actually
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    what got me through my ordination,
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    people seeing something in me that I
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    couldn't quite identify in myself.
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    That's why I got on to More Light
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    like I wasn't looking to be on a
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    More Light board.
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    You know, I was like, Oh, what's
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    this? I
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    the power of human curiosity.
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    I think of my curiosity and
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    curiosity of those who recognize
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    my humanity, and they may not
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    even fully have understood it.
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    I think that's a part of the dialog
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    too that really bothers me is like,
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    you have to fully understand, you
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    know, everything that's going on in
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    the particular context of oppression
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    to be of help, which just isn't
  • speaker
    true. If you understand that
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    somebody is a human being you might
  • speaker
    get get a little bit wrong.
  • speaker
    But where is your heart and are you
  • speaker
    willing to lend a hand?
  • speaker
    And it's been mostly from those
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    spaces that I have grown that
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    I have stretched, and that
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    opportunities were given to me.
  • speaker
    Yeah, they were given to me, and
  • speaker
    I'm very, very thankful and try
  • speaker
    to do the same whenever I can
  • speaker
    you know.
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    And that was a huge part of
  • speaker
    my ordination experience that got
  • speaker
    me through. It took me six and a
  • speaker
    half years, but it got me through of
  • speaker
    folks, not fully
  • speaker
    understanding, not even fully
  • speaker
    appreciating what queer people went
  • speaker
    through in the church. Not really
  • speaker
    even knowing our stories of like
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    gay camp and like
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    being anonymous space and
  • speaker
    working through our stuff and the
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    trauma that the church like put on
  • speaker
    some and that
  • speaker
    like you know life.
  • speaker
    But but it's yeah, now I'm
  • speaker
    just rambling. But
  • speaker
    I hope was that clear?
  • speaker
    Of just, you know, there's the
  • speaker
    little ways in which people
  • speaker
    contribute to acknowledging
  • speaker
    humanity. That's what got me through
  • speaker
    the ordination yeah.
  • speaker
    Yeah, absolutely.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    And you mentioned a little bit about
  • speaker
    not only kind of trying to like do
  • speaker
    the same for others whenever you
  • speaker
    can, so I was going to ask if you
  • speaker
    could talk more about like being on
  • speaker
    the board of More Light.
  • speaker
    And I saw you also work with Parity
  • speaker
    and kind of helped to plan the
  • speaker
    annual retreats.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    Oh my gosh, Parity I Parity
  • speaker
    when I say gay camp, that's what I'm
  • speaker
    referring to is Parity.
  • speaker
    Yeah. I got on the More Light board.
  • speaker
    They were looking for more young
  • speaker
    folks, more queers of color.
  • speaker
    And you know, I didn't know what I
  • speaker
    was doing Liz.
  • speaker
    You know, folks are like, Hey, we
  • speaker
    think you'd be a good fit for this
  • speaker
    board. And I was like, Oh, I've
  • speaker
    never been on a board before, but
  • speaker
    I've heard about More Light because
  • speaker
    I've heard about gay camp.
  • speaker
    And I'm excited for gay camp, and
  • speaker
    the More Light is a part of making
  • speaker
    this happen. Sure, I'm queer.
  • speaker
    I'm like, it was just More Light
  • speaker
    introduced me to my queer
  • speaker
    elders in the church.
  • speaker
    I will forever give thanks to that.
  • speaker
    Folks who paved the way before
  • speaker
    me so that I can be as much of
  • speaker
    myself as I could be in any space.
  • speaker
    So I feel honored to have met those
  • speaker
    people and continue to be in
  • speaker
    relationship with you know
  • speaker
    Michael Adee, with Bear Ride,
  • speaker
    with her wife Susan,
  • speaker
    and Janie Spahr.
  • speaker
    You know
  • speaker
    those are those are elders who will
  • speaker
    continue to be mentors for me
  • speaker
    and still are to this day.
  • speaker
    Like I call it, I'm talking to
  • speaker
    them about like once a month, you
  • speaker
    know, to just check in on them
  • speaker
    and tell me their stories.
  • speaker
    You know like, if you don't ask
  • speaker
    queer folks, we do not ask our
  • speaker
    elders our stories, but we are so
  • speaker
    about waving that flag and talking
  • speaker
    about Stonewall.
  • speaker
    But they have stories.
  • speaker
    And and so More Light was an
  • speaker
    introduction into that and realizing
  • speaker
    the agency and advocacy and the
  • speaker
    legacy of LGBTQ
  • speaker
    humanity and existence within the
  • speaker
    church, and I didn't know about it
  • speaker
    like had I not gone to Austin
  • speaker
    Seminary, identified as queer
  • speaker
    and Mieke Vandersall
  • speaker
    make a way for seminaries
  • speaker
    to to
  • speaker
    to.
  • speaker
    Not single out, but to identify
  • speaker
    openly out queer
  • speaker
    folks and say that there's a space
  • speaker
    for you that you can go,
  • speaker
    you know, for a week and a half
  • speaker
    every year, and
  • speaker
    we're going to talk about how you
  • speaker
    get through your ordination process.
  • speaker
    We are going to do some healing work
  • speaker
    around the damage of the church and
  • speaker
    its damaging theology.
  • speaker
    And we're also going to give you
  • speaker
    queer communities, chosen family
  • speaker
    if your family is struggling as
  • speaker
    well.
  • speaker
    That was huge.
  • speaker
    And to me, More Light was an
  • speaker
    expansion of that world.
  • speaker
    Didn't just focus on LGBTQ
  • speaker
    candidates and inquirers,
  • speaker
    but shifting the church.
  • speaker
    And so More Light was my my
  • speaker
    major introduction into faith rooted
  • speaker
    organizing on a national
  • speaker
    level.
  • speaker
    And and I'm
  • speaker
    forever thankful
  • speaker
    because I think the more
  • speaker
    marginalized one is in a particular
  • speaker
    space or context, since we're in the
  • speaker
    church, like I knew going into
  • speaker
    seminary, just being a Black woman,
  • speaker
    let alone being queer.
  • speaker
    But you know, I'm going to have to
  • speaker
    sacrifice to a certain degree
  • speaker
    academic pursuance
  • speaker
    to be able to network.
  • speaker
    So that way, when I get out of
  • speaker
    seminary, I'm known
  • speaker
    so that.
  • speaker
    I might get a job, you know, like I
  • speaker
    can get a call.
  • speaker
    And so More Light did that
  • speaker
    and more and just introduced me to
  • speaker
    this rich legacy and history that I
  • speaker
    didn't even know and
  • speaker
    helped me to see opportunities.
  • speaker
    I learned the way the church worked
  • speaker
    and learned the way local
  • speaker
    presbyteries worked with Parity,
  • speaker
    too, because we would all get
  • speaker
    together
  • speaker
    during the summer undisclosed
  • speaker
    location like we didn't even know
  • speaker
    where we are going.
  • speaker
    Gay camp.
  • speaker
    We were told right before. Yeah at gay camp.
  • speaker
    We didn't know where we were going.
  • speaker
    We fundraised.
  • speaker
    We would get there.
  • speaker
    We had like keynote speakers.
  • speaker
    We had this time to just be free and
  • speaker
    clear and frolic and
  • speaker
    and we had to keep it quiet, right?
  • speaker
    Because we were still getting witch
  • speaker
    hunted at the time, if somebody
  • speaker
    outed us it would derail our process
  • speaker
    even more.
  • speaker
    But it was such a space of laughter,
  • speaker
    of joy, like renewal,
  • speaker
    of being able to normalize
  • speaker
    our emotions and what we were going
  • speaker
    through and to strategically
  • speaker
    plan so like we
  • speaker
    would learn and share stories
  • speaker
    about the ways in which different
  • speaker
    presbyteries across the denomination
  • speaker
    were blocking
  • speaker
    or blocking ordination tracks.
  • speaker
    And so we would be just like you
  • speaker
    would for like politics, right?
  • speaker
    So we would begin to come up with
  • speaker
    like counter defenses.
  • speaker
    And so, you know, if we knew that
  • speaker
    somebody was about to go on the
  • speaker
    floor of presbytery to be examined,
  • speaker
    we would examine and use out
  • speaker
    all of the language that was used
  • speaker
    from that presbytery around the
  • speaker
    country, anything possible.
  • speaker
    And so we would train and drill
  • speaker
    each other
  • speaker
    for those examination questions,
  • speaker
    right, that we would expect.
  • speaker
    So that way we were prepared so that
  • speaker
    we we knew
  • speaker
    it was it that it was
  • speaker
    as intensive as it sounds, and it
  • speaker
    was also playful and wonderful,
  • speaker
    cause it was a safe space.
  • speaker
    Yeah, yep.
  • speaker
    Right.
  • speaker
    But we would drill each other and we
  • speaker
    would learn who was coming up on our
  • speaker
    committees on ministry and what
  • speaker
    their theological stances were.
  • speaker
    Like we would literally study
  • speaker
    the behavior, study the
  • speaker
    theology and then create
  • speaker
    and then create counter approaches.
  • speaker
    So that way we could push a little
  • speaker
    bit further, never knowing when we
  • speaker
    would get ordained.
  • speaker
    And right like, I'm thirty two years
  • speaker
    old, like people think like this
  • speaker
    happened so long ago
  • speaker
    and I'm not even 32, I'll be thirty
  • speaker
    two in like a month and a half. Like,
  • speaker
    you know, like, it really wasn't
  • speaker
    that long ago that this stuff
  • speaker
    happened. Right?
  • speaker
    Yeah, I was going to ask if you
  • speaker
    could clarify like what like, maybe
  • speaker
    the dates were like what, some of
  • speaker
    the years or that you went to a
  • speaker
    queer camp
  • speaker
    Yeah I went to queer camp.
  • speaker
    Or like the first few times you
  • speaker
    went? Maybe.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    Like so this is like 20,
  • speaker
    like 2012
  • speaker
    through 20, like
  • speaker
    14, 15.
  • speaker
    Wow. OK.
  • speaker
    So it really was not that long ago.
  • speaker
    Not that long ago.
  • speaker
    No, not at all.
  • speaker
    No, no.
  • speaker
    And like and it ranged
  • speaker
    from like, you know, folks
  • speaker
    who are in their 50s
  • speaker
    and like who'd been fighting, you
  • speaker
    know, damn near longer than some of
  • speaker
    us had been alive to be ordained.
  • speaker
    So. So it was a very diverse
  • speaker
    population in many ways.
  • speaker
    And I think a lot of
  • speaker
    the LGBTQ pastors that
  • speaker
    you see today, at least that were in
  • speaker
    my generation of
  • speaker
    either ordination or seminary
  • speaker
    attendance has a huge thanks to do
  • speaker
    with Mieke Vandersall and that.
  • speaker
    And that's like a huge,
  • speaker
    huge thing. So yeah, I was a part of
  • speaker
    Parity's planning
  • speaker
    for, I think, two years in a row.
  • speaker
    Definitely more than one.
  • speaker
    So two years in a row
  • speaker
    and our involvement in the New York
  • speaker
    Pride Parade was great and just
  • speaker
    it was very helpful because it
  • speaker
    reminded us that we weren't alone.
  • speaker
    I think that's the thing is very
  • speaker
    isolating at times.
  • speaker
    And Austin, I
  • speaker
    give a huge thanks to
  • speaker
    to the admissions of Austin Seminary
  • speaker
    when I was there because I think.
  • speaker
    That beloved human being saw
  • speaker
    queers in the church
  • speaker
    and recruited intentionally
  • speaker
    queers who are trying
  • speaker
    to get ordained.
  • speaker
    And so this is what I guess this
  • speaker
    is. What I mean is like little
  • speaker
    people do, not little people, the
  • speaker
    people doing their parts and little
  • speaker
    aspects to the culture shift.
  • speaker
    Because now now there's a contingent
  • speaker
    of us. Now you have to.
  • speaker
    You can't just ignore, nor can
  • speaker
    somebody be isolated, right?
  • speaker
    There is a group of us queers when I
  • speaker
    went to seminary.
  • speaker
    And so, yeah, it was.
  • speaker
    I'm thankful, I'm thankful.
  • speaker
    And yeah, I wanted to clarify a
  • speaker
    little bit, so it sounded like the
  • speaker
    invite to find out about gay
  • speaker
    camp was kind of word
  • speaker
    of mouth?
  • speaker
    Yes, yeah.
  • speaker
    Okay.
  • speaker
    So much was word of mouth, because
  • speaker
    because, you know, it really was
  • speaker
    scary like you didn't know.
  • speaker
    And if you told the wrong person it
  • speaker
    really like again, you can lose
  • speaker
    whatever financial, if you got any
  • speaker
    financial allocations, you could
  • speaker
    lose that. You can.
  • speaker
    Heaven forbid where your family
  • speaker
    was or what your family did or
  • speaker
    didn't know about you being out.
  • speaker
    What did that mean about your church
  • speaker
    and being an inquirer candidate
  • speaker
    because if your church didn't agree,
  • speaker
    well then you lose your church
  • speaker
    sponsorship. There's no way you can
  • speaker
    get ordained.
  • speaker
    So all of this happened.
  • speaker
    Word of mouth, you know, once
  • speaker
    once you're in, you're in.
  • speaker
    But I mean, traditionally in the
  • speaker
    ways in which queers can queer
  • speaker
    communities outside of the church
  • speaker
    kind of gathered and
  • speaker
    and became chosen families so
  • speaker
    is true inside
  • speaker
    the church.
  • speaker
    And then you have this like double
  • speaker
    double-blind in the church because
  • speaker
    to a certain degree, you know,
  • speaker
    because the church has been so
  • speaker
    oppressive towards queer people
  • speaker
    like I always remind folks like the
  • speaker
    church is the number one oppressor
  • speaker
    of queer folks that
  • speaker
    you also have this double isolation
  • speaker
    with queer Christians or queer
  • speaker
    people of faith in general.
  • speaker
    You know that because
  • speaker
    you're queer and you're Christian.
  • speaker
    You know, secular queers don't trust
  • speaker
    you, right?
  • speaker
    Or they think something's wrong with
  • speaker
    you.
  • speaker
    And don't think you're quote unquote
  • speaker
    woke enough or they think that
  • speaker
    you are denying parts of your
  • speaker
    humanity without that,
  • speaker
    excuse me, without that
  • speaker
    curiosity that I talked about
  • speaker
    earlier that I think is so important
  • speaker
    to human connection and
  • speaker
    relationship.
  • speaker
    Without being curious of like
  • speaker
    you're queer and Christian, why is
  • speaker
    that? Because that doesn't make
  • speaker
    sense to me, I'm adverse to that.
  • speaker
    But but typically in my experience,
  • speaker
    those questions aren't asked.
  • speaker
    It's like, Oh, you're queer and
  • speaker
    Christian, like, you're dumb or
  • speaker
    you're just like, totally
  • speaker
    in the colonial thing, or you're
  • speaker
    still trapped in your own oppression
  • speaker
    when you know it's not actually
  • speaker
    really true, right?
  • speaker
    So, yeah, yeah, so
  • speaker
    I think those those spaces for
  • speaker
    queers in the church were
  • speaker
    so important
  • speaker
    for all of those reasons for
  • speaker
    the discrimination within the
  • speaker
    church.
  • speaker
    The discrimination in society
  • speaker
    and also the discrimination within
  • speaker
    the broader queer community
  • speaker
    as are related to church, right?
  • speaker
    Because we're looked at as,
  • speaker
    you know, we as in queers of
  • speaker
    faith, can be looked at as
  • speaker
    coconspirators with the oppressor.
  • speaker
    Right.
  • speaker
    When when in fact, it's not quite
  • speaker
    true. And it's easier, I realize
  • speaker
    to instigate change
  • speaker
    when you're within a system
  • speaker
    than shouting from outside it
  • speaker
    because they can't, you know, they
  • speaker
    can't. The church can't overlook me
  • speaker
    as a cradle Presbyterian like
  • speaker
    they actually have to contend with
  • speaker
    me because
  • speaker
    it's not like I don't know what I'm
  • speaker
    talking about, you know,
  • speaker
    and there's power there, and there's
  • speaker
    a way to that that makes
  • speaker
    space for healing instead of
  • speaker
    othering us versus them, which gets
  • speaker
    so tiring.
  • speaker
    It's just it's it's
  • speaker
    there's a road to healing that
  • speaker
    I think is very important.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    So I don't keep you too long
  • speaker
    today, but I did have my
  • speaker
    last question here, I wanted to talk
  • speaker
    a little bit about some of
  • speaker
    the work you've been doing this past
  • speaker
    year, particularly
  • speaker
    I know I saw you did like
  • speaker
    at least you gave like
  • speaker
    one like sermon as part of
  • speaker
    Abolitionist Advent.
  • speaker
    And I think I also saw your name
  • speaker
    listed on the website.
  • speaker
    I don't know if you could talk a
  • speaker
    little bit more about like what
  • speaker
    Abolitionist Advent does, what
  • speaker
    the mission is, how that came about?
  • speaker
    Yeah, I think about it's like a
  • speaker
    brainchild of, I think, Alex Patchin
  • speaker
    McNeil of More Light Presbyterians,
  • speaker
    and I think a little bit
  • speaker
    of Emily Brewer of Presbyterian
  • speaker
    Peace Fellowship,
  • speaker
    Ashley DeTar-Birt.
  • speaker
    There's a whole bunch of folks
  • speaker
    that wanted to do something as
  • speaker
    related to the church and abolition.
  • speaker
    And what do we mean and how do we do
  • speaker
    faith-rooted organizing, mobilizing,
  • speaker
    mobilizing people of faith to have
  • speaker
    conversations about abolition?
  • speaker
    What does that mean? What does that
  • speaker
    practically look like and
  • speaker
    how to match our theologies
  • speaker
    with that? Again, being
  • speaker
    intersectional, right?
  • speaker
    If we believe in LGBTQ
  • speaker
    rights. Like if we believe in
  • speaker
    women's rights, if we're going to
  • speaker
    say Black Lives Matter, Stop
  • speaker
    Asian Hate, well, then we actually
  • speaker
    do need to consider abolition
  • speaker
    and what that looks like.
  • speaker
    And so
  • speaker
    it's it's become like a thinking
  • speaker
    working processing group of how do
  • speaker
    we make it real?
  • speaker
    So it's very much still an
  • speaker
    incubation stage.
  • speaker
    You only meet twice a month and
  • speaker
    as as not just as Presbyterians,
  • speaker
    but we have Lutherans involved.
  • speaker
    We got UCC folks involved, we got
  • speaker
    American Baptists involved.
  • speaker
    You know, it's it's a very
  • speaker
    ecumenical space.
  • speaker
    So it's it's becoming.
  • speaker
    I'm excited for where it's going,
  • speaker
    but it's becoming. We're trying to
  • speaker
    figure out what to do and how does
  • speaker
    this match and how we how do we, you
  • speaker
    know Presbyterians
  • speaker
    like something really neat and
  • speaker
    clear? You know, it's like they want
  • speaker
    a three point sermon, a very clear
  • speaker
    thesis, three points and then an
  • speaker
    action item, and so we're
  • speaker
    trying to
  • speaker
    make a very clear thesis
  • speaker
    three points and decide, does
  • speaker
    this need an action item?
  • speaker
    Like, is this more education, right?
  • speaker
    Like, how do we have this more
  • speaker
    emergent process occur
  • speaker
    in emergence and Presbyterianism
  • speaker
    is a struggle, right?
  • speaker
    But yeah that's some of the work I've been
  • speaker
    doing there for about a year and
  • speaker
    beginning conversations and
  • speaker
    creating like theological frameworks
  • speaker
    in context for that, there's
  • speaker
    a Spahr Reconciliation Initiative
  • speaker
    with Janie Spahr at San Francisco
  • speaker
    Theological Seminary, which is now
  • speaker
    University of the Redlands Graduate
  • speaker
    School of Theology home in San
  • speaker
    Francisco Theological Seminary.
  • speaker
    The biggest mouthful ever.
  • speaker
    Wow. OK.
  • speaker
    Yeah. Working with them on
  • speaker
    how to make that campus
  • speaker
    more LGBTQ inclusive
  • speaker
    and an open and affirming
  • speaker
    in ways that you know they might not
  • speaker
    have been in the past.
  • speaker
    And that's kind of like an ongoing
  • speaker
    kind of thing like as needed.
  • speaker
    You know, like call me up as needed.
  • speaker
    To help steer
  • speaker
    or consult, and
  • speaker
    then you know over the past year,
  • speaker
    I've actually transitioned out of
  • speaker
    I'm transitioning
  • speaker
    out of parish
  • speaker
    ministry into chaplaincy.
  • speaker
    I thought that's really work kind of.
  • speaker
    I like it better. I think it fits my
  • speaker
    personality a little better.
  • speaker
    So I've been a hospital
  • speaker
    chaplain over at Stanford Hospital,
  • speaker
    finishing my CBE credits
  • speaker
    during the pandemic.
  • speaker
    So for the past year, so doing a
  • speaker
    lot of.
  • speaker
    Yeah, yeah,
  • speaker
    so doing a lot of first responder
  • speaker
    work, really
  • speaker
    focusing on moral distress and moral
  • speaker
    injury
  • speaker
    and how chaplaincy and
  • speaker
    spiritual emotional care can meet
  • speaker
    those needs.
  • speaker
    And you know what a better context
  • speaker
    the pandemic didn't expect it.
  • speaker
    So, yeah, yeah, and the goal not
  • speaker
    eventually be a hospital chaplain,
  • speaker
    but you
  • speaker
    know, starting in the fall, I'll
  • speaker
    be a university
  • speaker
    wide working with STEM students
  • speaker
    in particular on moral
  • speaker
    distress, moral injuries, spiritual
  • speaker
    and emotional care to
  • speaker
    kind of get down some of those
  • speaker
    numbers of depression,
  • speaker
    of anxiety that impair
  • speaker
    and impact functioning.
  • speaker
    So my hope as as as
  • speaker
    technology continues, you know,
  • speaker
    being out here in the West Coast and
  • speaker
    having spent some time in Silicon
  • speaker
    Valley
  • speaker
    that there needs to be
  • speaker
    some, some chaplaincy,
  • speaker
    some spiritual emotional care to
  • speaker
    technological innovation, right
  • speaker
    like, artificial intelligence,
  • speaker
    blockchain technologies, a lot of
  • speaker
    these things are done in a very
  • speaker
    closed bubble, mostly men, mostly
  • speaker
    white or Asian upper
  • speaker
    middle class or wealthy, designing
  • speaker
    a lot of things that impact the
  • speaker
    world at a scale never quite
  • speaker
    before seen.
  • speaker
    And so
  • speaker
    I realize that my entire
  • speaker
    role in ministry, my life's work.
  • speaker
    I actually feel confident enough to
  • speaker
    say that is moral
  • speaker
    distress and moral injury in the
  • speaker
    technology sector.
  • speaker
    So working with.
  • speaker
    Association of Professional
  • speaker
    Chaplains and using
  • speaker
    curating my chaplaincy training,
  • speaker
    because right now it's mostly right,
  • speaker
    like a hospital chaplaincy and
  • speaker
    jail chaplaincy, or
  • speaker
    prison ministry.
  • speaker
    But industry ministry is
  • speaker
    like mostly in the south, in a very
  • speaker
    particular like evangelical context,
  • speaker
    and I'm just trying to meet both
  • speaker
    spiritual and emotional needs as an
  • speaker
    interfaith chaplain, which works
  • speaker
    a little bit more than my universalism
  • speaker
    and my non-substitutionary atonement
  • speaker
    theology. Oh,
  • speaker
    so so yeah, that's
  • speaker
    that's the goal. And that's really
  • speaker
    where I'm setting my sights on
  • speaker
    and found great support within San
  • speaker
    Jose Presbytery to do that
  • speaker
    and great support with
  • speaker
    my supervisor at Stanford.
  • speaker
    And, you know, with folks in the
  • speaker
    queer community that continue to
  • speaker
    back and support this work.
  • speaker
    Yeah, so so I'm excited for that,
  • speaker
    because it's important, it's
  • speaker
    important.
  • speaker
    Yeah, that's so interesting and
  • speaker
    important. Definitely.
  • speaker
    I'd never really heard about it
  • speaker
    before.
  • speaker
    Are there are a lot of other people
  • speaker
    doing that kind of work or doing
  • speaker
    kind of a new? Okay.
  • speaker
    No it's a new thing. Yeah, and I don't
  • speaker
    think I'm the only one, but it's
  • speaker
    not. It's not a majority.
  • speaker
    I don't even think it's a healthy
  • speaker
    minority, but, you
  • speaker
    know, just continuing to carve out a
  • speaker
    stone trying to use water instead of
  • speaker
    a chisel.
  • speaker
    But but yeah, it's a need that I
  • speaker
    saw when I got ordained
  • speaker
    to First Presbyterian Palo Alto, I
  • speaker
    was trying to understand my
  • speaker
    congregations.
  • speaker
    I'm used to like upper middle class,
  • speaker
    like wealthy white environment,
  • speaker
    like the suburbs, it's not, you
  • speaker
    know, I grew up in that part of
  • speaker
    Georgia, so like that wasn't an
  • speaker
    issue for me.
  • speaker
    But I was like, What is going on
  • speaker
    with this culture in Silicon Valley?
  • speaker
    Like what is happening?
  • speaker
    So I just like to
  • speaker
    follow where the money is. And so I
  • speaker
    just did the research what's the
  • speaker
    economic driver in Silicon Valley?
  • speaker
    And I realized, Oh, it's artificial
  • speaker
    intelligence, oh it's blockchain
  • speaker
    technology. All right.
  • speaker
    So that's also shaping the culture,
  • speaker
    right? So I need to understand this
  • speaker
    to better minister to my people and
  • speaker
    my flock. And what I found is that,
  • speaker
    you know, contrary to popular
  • speaker
    belief, Silicon Valley is a Bible
  • speaker
    belt. Like there are, there are
  • speaker
    churches, there are synagogues
  • speaker
    that are temples all
  • speaker
    throughout Silicon Valley.
  • speaker
    It is a rumor.
  • speaker
    Really?
  • speaker
    Let me dispel the lie.
  • speaker
    Yes, they're actually very
  • speaker
    spiritual, very religious.
  • speaker
    There's a huge, beautiful,
  • speaker
    progressive interfaith like
  • speaker
    clergy contingent in Silicon Valley.
  • speaker
    The idea that folks in Silicon
  • speaker
    Valley aren't spiritual or religious
  • speaker
    is just a lie. It's a hoax.
  • speaker
    It's stupid.
  • speaker
    I don't even like I've lived
  • speaker
    that certain people.
  • speaker
    It's real. You know, and by it's
  • speaker
    real, like their belief and faith
  • speaker
    and like spirituality, and it's
  • speaker
    it's strong.
  • speaker
    And so I found very interesting is
  • speaker
    like, why aren't my other
  • speaker
    colleagues? Why aren't we talking
  • speaker
    about technology?
  • speaker
    Like, why aren't we talking about
  • speaker
    the impact and its morals?
  • speaker
    There's like a major gap like what
  • speaker
    I'm talking about. I'm not.
  • speaker
    I mean, I'm pretty quick, like,
  • speaker
    yeah, I'm a brilliant person.
  • speaker
    I'm not going to put myself down.
  • speaker
    But also like, that's a low-hanging
  • speaker
    fruit, right?
  • speaker
    So and to me, that's another
  • speaker
    example of the church's disconnect
  • speaker
    with the communities that they
  • speaker
    serve, and the community that I
  • speaker
    served just happened to be Silicon
  • speaker
    Valley.
  • speaker
    And so that's
  • speaker
    what reframed my mind.
  • speaker
    You know, church still has this
  • speaker
    expectation. Will people come to us
  • speaker
    busting? Did
  • speaker
    Jesus sit somewhere and say, Come to
  • speaker
    me? No,
  • speaker
    his ministry was the exact opposite.
  • speaker
    He, like, went out to people. So this is why I
  • speaker
    like chaplaincy, right?
  • speaker
    Because I'm going out to people.
  • speaker
    It is consent based.
  • speaker
    I'm not giving you dogma.
  • speaker
    I'm meeting your spiritual and
  • speaker
    emotional needs.
  • speaker
    And also, just like Jesus, I go.
  • speaker
    You know, I come and meet you where you're at. I
  • speaker
    go, and you got the synagogue.
  • speaker
    You got the church there.
  • speaker
    You got the temple to like continue
  • speaker
    on your education, if you need.
  • speaker
    But I'm able to hit that heart space
  • speaker
    for a very particular moment in
  • speaker
    time.
  • speaker
    And that, to me, is really valuable
  • speaker
    work.
  • speaker
    That's the work. That's the ministry
  • speaker
    that I'm going to be doing.
  • speaker
    And ultimately, that's the ministry
  • speaker
    that I received as a queer person
  • speaker
    in the church, right?
  • speaker
    Like, folks would come to me and
  • speaker
    give me like these little moments of
  • speaker
    pastoral care and the spiritual
  • speaker
    emotional care
  • speaker
    you know, in these beautiful, tender
  • speaker
    ways. And that compounded over
  • speaker
    time and it kept me in the church.
  • speaker
    You know.
  • speaker
    It's like, OK, like there's
  • speaker
    something to this.
  • speaker
    Maybe a little something there yeah.
  • speaker
    Yeah, yeah, it's worth
  • speaker
    it.
  • speaker
    OK, it's worth it.
  • speaker
    But it was those little moments
  • speaker
    over time. So that's
  • speaker
    that's where my call to ministry is,
  • speaker
    and that's really want to dedicate
  • speaker
    my life's work to for the
  • speaker
    foreseeable future.
  • speaker
    I think that's where I want to anchor and put my little hat on.
  • speaker
    Well that's so great. I feel like I
  • speaker
    want to interview you again in like
  • speaker
    ten years and see
  • speaker
    see how it's going.
  • speaker
    All right.
  • speaker
    Just compacting the history being
  • speaker
    made yeah.
  • speaker
    Yeah any way I can be of help.
  • speaker
    Yeah, well, I think we should
  • speaker
    probably wrap things up here pretty
  • speaker
    soon, but is there anything I just
  • speaker
    want to give you time for anything
  • speaker
    you thought of while we've been
  • speaker
    talking or anything that comes to
  • speaker
    mind that you want to make sure is
  • speaker
    said?
  • speaker
    No, no.
  • speaker
    I mean, I think there's something
  • speaker
    you said about keeping it up, you
  • speaker
    know, walking by faith and
  • speaker
    not by sight.
  • speaker
    I think of like that scripture for
  • speaker
    God's a lamp unto my feet and a
  • speaker
    light into my path.
  • speaker
    And I was talking to my
  • speaker
    counselor the other day and she's
  • speaker
    like, Yeah, that that that lamp is
  • speaker
    a glow really is just at your feet
  • speaker
    and you know, she's right, she's so
  • speaker
    still right.
  • speaker
    But I think my hope is the arc
  • speaker
    of all the stories and narratives
  • speaker
    that you hear that
  • speaker
    it really is this walk by faith and
  • speaker
    not by sight that that
  • speaker
    has given so much surprise
  • speaker
    in my life and so much
  • speaker
    opportunity and
  • speaker
    where there has been so many places
  • speaker
    that say no and so many places
  • speaker
    have appeared apparent
  • speaker
    scarcity that there has been
  • speaker
    abundance that only God has made
  • speaker
    possible. I really do believe that,
  • speaker
    yeah, faith makes a way out
  • speaker
    of no way. It's all just,
  • speaker
    and it continues to be so and so.
  • speaker
    I hope that that arc both
  • speaker
    explicitly and implicitly
  • speaker
    shows its way through all of these
  • speaker
    stories because I think
  • speaker
    there's miraculous in each and every
  • speaker
    single one of us and hearing one
  • speaker
    another's narratives allows
  • speaker
    allows that spread of that, which is
  • speaker
    miraculous in the
  • speaker
    mundane like to come
  • speaker
    about, which is really beautiful.
  • speaker
    Well, thank you so much for talking
  • speaker
    with me and sharing your story.
  • speaker
    I'll go ahead and stop recording
  • speaker
    here.

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