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Michael Adee oral history, 2021.
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- speakerAll right, well, I thought I'd maybe
- speakerjust go ahead and start by asking
- speakeryou about your faith experiences
- speakergrowing up,
- speakerif you really have anything like
- speakerreally formative that you remember
- speakerabout growing up, I think in the,
- speakerdid you grow up in the Presbyterian
- speakerChurch?
- speakerI did, I did.
- speakerAnd
- speakermy parents adopted me.
- speakerIt was a, it was a
- speakerpre-birth adoption
- speakerand it actually was negotiated
- speakerafter a session meeting
- speakerat First Presbyterian Church,
- speakerBillings, Montana.
- speakerMy dad was an engineer
- speakerand he was
- speakerclerk of session and there was a
- speakerpediatrician, and this is 1955.
- speakerSo ancient history that before
- speakerthere were a lot of adoption
- speakeragencies and so forth and people
- speakerdoing such things, things were done
- speakerprivately.
- speakerAnd so a
- speakerpediatrician was
- speakersort of, OK.
- speakerAnybody want a baby?
- speakerAnd so
- speakermy parents had adopted from
- speakerfour years previous to me.
- speakerMy older brother, Steve who's of
- speakerCherokee descent,
- speakerand I didn't know the word biracial.
- speakerGrowing up, I didn't really
- speakerunderstand his indigenous
- speakerbackground.
- speakerThose realizations would come later,
- speakerbut what I realize is
- speakerthat, you know, the The Crucible
- speakerfor our family really is the
- speakerPresbyterian Church, and
- speakerit's it's the container
- speakerand the place where important things
- speakerhappened, including,
- speakeryou know, the arrangement of my
- speakeradoption, you know, so that's
- speakerway before baptism and way before
- speakerconversion, you know,
- speakerand and confirmation.
- speakerSo my
- speakerdad was clerk of session everywhere
- speakerbecause engineers make good clerks
- speakerof session, you know, paying
- speakerattention to details.
- speakerAnd my mom was magnificent
- speakerabout hospitality,
- speakerso she was often the person
- speakerif there was an illness or a death
- speakerto get a casserole somewhere
- speakerand my mom could get 50
- speakercasseroles in 100
- speakermile radius in three hours, I
- speakermean she was incredible.
- speakerSo I grew up with this
- speakervery clear
- speakerhospitality at home
- speakerand hospitality at church
- speakerand and growing up as a little
- speakerone in the Presbyterian Church
- speakerand often in smaller churches.
- speakerEvery child was valued, but we were
- speakervalued even more when they were just
- speakersix of us or four of us.
- speakerAnd so we moved to Louisiana
- speakerwhen I'm in third
- speakergrade. So that's what my memory
- speakeris more so than the early
- speakertime.
- speakerMost of my knowledge before
- speakersix is from family stories,
- speakerto be clear.
- speakerAnd but I was
- speakerso fortunate to grow up with these
- speakeramazing Sunday school teachers who,
- speakeryou know, taught all the stories of
- speakerfaith.
- speakerAnd I learned early on
- speakerthat, you know, if you're going to
- speakerif you're going to score in Sunday
- speakerschool and you know,
- speakerthere are two things you can answer
- speakerand kind of hit it at 50 percent say
- speakereither Moses or Jesus.
- speakerSo I sort of learned the drill early
- speakeron and had
- speakerjust a wonderful experience.
- speakerAnd I'm grateful for
- speakerthe reformed tradition and the
- speakerteaching of reason
- speakerand science.
- speakerYou know that that that goes
- speakerhand in hand with social justice and
- speakerfaith.
- speakerAnd so for me, it was always
- speakera seamless garment.
- speakerNow, to be clear, you know, my
- speakergrowing up in the Southern
- speakerPresbyterian Church, there were no
- speakervisible or known
- speakerwomen ministers.
- speakerAnd so, you know, women's
- speakerordination was sort of the tempest
- speakerin the teapot in my growing
- speakerup as a child
- speakerand a young person.
- speakerAnd so that would be my first
- speakerlearning about the church
- speakerand how it handled different
- speakerquestions and how
- speakerthe church could stretch and grow.
- speakerAnd so I'm I'm really
- speakergrateful for that background, and
- speakerI saw a harmony between
- speakerthe faith and the values and the
- speakerethics of our home
- speakerthat that mirrored what
- speakerwe were taught
- speakerand what was expressed
- speakerat church.
- speakerAnd so
- speakerthere were four of us in our youth
- speakergroup. Four of us confirmed,
- speakeryou know, by the most patient
- speakerconfirmation teacher God ever made
- speakerbecause we were four rascals.
- speakerAnd but
- speakerI look back, I've looked back a lot
- speakerat those formative people
- speakerwho just loved us unconditionally.
- speakerAnd so when when someone
- speakertalked about the unconditional love
- speakerof God and God's grace and
- speakerGod's mercy and God's compassion,
- speakeryou know, it was the incarnation
- speakerfor me at Westminster Presbyterian
- speakerChurch in southwest Louisiana.
- speakerI mean. That's what I
- speakergrew up with.
- speakerAnd so when I began to look at
- speakermyself more closely and affirm being
- speakergay,
- speakeryou know, I bumped up into silence,
- speakeryou know, and and back
- speakerthen Presbyterians didn't do
- speakersexuality in general really well,
- speakeryou know, for heterosexual
- speakeridentified folks.
- speakerBut just silence, just
- speakerabsolute silence
- speakeraround queer folk and folk like
- speakerme.
- speakerDid you know of any queer folk
- speakerin the Presbyterian Church?
- speakerHow old were you by the time
- speakeryou heard of someone who was queer
- speakerin the Presbyterian Church?
- speakerWow. Oh, that's a great question.
- speakerSo.
- speakerNo, I didn't.
- speakerI didn't really know anyone
- speakerinside our faith, tradition
- speakergrowing up.
- speakerBut but I read about Harvey Milk
- speakerin San Francisco.
- speakerOkay.
- speakerAnd then I read about Dave Kopay,
- speakerthe NFL football player.
- speakerAnd so, you know, there were people
- speakerin society
- speakerand I remember my mom and I watching
- speakerTV, some talk show where Dave Kopay
- speakercame on and my
- speakermom had grown up on a dirt poor
- speakerdepression farm in West Texas.
- speakerYou know, hard, poor,
- speakernot even encouraged to go much
- speakerbeyond high school.
- speakerAnd she was a secretary.
- speakerAnd and when my dad came back
- speakerfrom World War Two, she put
- speakerhim through college and
- speakermy mom had a lot of curiosity.
- speakerAnd so anyway,
- speakerDave Kopay on well and I'm
- speakeralmost 16 and I'm glued to this.
- speakerThis is a gay NFL
- speakerplayer, you know, but I wasn't,
- speakeryou know, like what's going on?
- speakerAnd my mom simply asked
- speakerat the end of the program
- speaker"Son, what?
- speakerWhat did the what?" And the word was
- speakerhomosexual then to be clear,
- speaker"What do homosexuals do with each
- speakerother?" I said, "Oh mama, I have no
- speakeridea."
- speakerAnd I ran out of the room and
- speakerand, you know, I just love
- speakerit was. It was not judgmental
- speakerat all.
- speakerIt was not harsh.
- speakerIt was not, you know, off-putting.
- speakerIt was just simple curiosity.
- speakerAnd when I think about my parents,
- speakeryou know, they were terribly
- speakerromantic. And in recent years, I've
- speakerlooked at all their, you know,
- speakerengagement and wedding pictures, you
- speakerknow, and I'm like, Ooh, you know,
- speakermy parents were kind of sexy back
- speakerthen.
- speakerYou know, you don't want to think
- speakerabout your parents.
- speakerI didn't want to think about my
- speakerparents being sexy.
- speakerYou know, I was glad they were
- speakerromantic. You know, that was good.
- speakerAnd.
- speakerBut I look back and and
- speakerfor for each of them,
- speakerI think their lives
- speakerwere so
- speakerthey were in that bubble that
- speakereverybody was heterosexual,
- speakeryou know, and opposite sex
- speakerloving. And so they didn't
- speakergrow up and didn't ever talk about
- speakerwho they might have grown up with.
- speakerYou know, so my exposure would
- speakercome really to
- speakerother LGBT people in the
- speakerPresbyterian Church.
- speakerNot until the 90s,
- speakeryou know, so, so much later.
- speakerAnd then I would read about,
- speakeryou know, Janie Spahr and Chris
- speakerGlaser and Howard Warren.
- speakerAnd then the story
- speakerthat really caught my imagination
- speakerand my attention was
- speakerReverend David Sindt.
- speakerAnd in 1974,
- speakeras a young Presbyterian
- speakerminister, he went to a big
- speakerPresbyterian General Assembly.
- speakerI mean, 1974, just,
- speakeryou know, minutes after Stonewall
- speakerand held up a sign.
- speakerIs anybody else out there gay?
- speakerAnd that was that was what I call
- speakerthe Stonewall of the Presbyterian
- speakerChurch, the Stonewall moment.
- speakerIt was a quiet one because we're
- speakermostly polite.
- speakerAnd you
- speakerknow, and I like that about us.
- speakerI like our civility.
- speakerI like our politeness.
- speakerI don't think politeness needs
- speakerto mean we shrink from hard
- speakerconversations, but that
- speakerwe can do so with with
- speakera lot of grace and respect when
- speakerwhen we when we didn't grow up with
- speakerthe same life experiences or
- speakerbeliefs.
- speakerAnd so I look at David Sindt
- speakernow, you know, I mean, he really was
- speakerthe father, the mother, the.
- speakerThe catalyst for for change
- speakerin the Presbyterian Church, and he
- speakerwould inspire other queer
- speakerfolk and then a lot of allies
- speakerto stand up with him.
- speakerAnd so
- speakerI I I really think
- speakerabout those folks and I think about
- speakerthe courage that they had,
- speakerthe moral courage and the personal
- speakercourage
- speakerto to be open and out
- speakeragainst a silent
- speakerchurch who would steady you
- speakerand against a hostile
- speakersociety.
- speakerAnd you know, I just feel like
- speakerall of us, you know, stand
- speakeron their shoulders.
- speakerThat was very, very well said.
- speakerI love that story of David Sindt.
- speakerHolding up the sign,
- speakerwe've had so many people sending
- speakerquestions asking if we have a photo
- speakerof it.
- speakerAnd I have like torn the archive
- speakerapart.
- speakerI mean, not actually, but I just
- speakercan't find a photo anywhere.
- speakerAnd some people swear they've seen
- speakerthe photos. Some people swear that
- speakernone exists.
- speakerAnd it's just like such a powerful
- speakerimage that people think they've seen
- speakera photo.
- speakerRight, right,
- speakerright. Exactly.
- speakerAnd I think that
- speakerin that search,
- speakerpeople have seen other people
- speakerholding up that sign.
- speakerYeah, yeah.
- speakerAnd you know, and so
- speakerbut no, I don't think an actual
- speakerphoto exists and, you know,
- speakerunfortunately.
- speakerAnd, you know, so grateful
- speakerfor the narrative and and
- speakerpeople who were there certainly have
- speakerverified the authenticity
- speakerof that moment.
- speakerYou know, the people that would
- speakercreate what was called
- speakerPresbyterians for Gay Concerns,
- speakerthat's what it would call that was
- speakerthe predecessor, as you know,
- speakerto More Light Presbyterians.
- speakerYes, I do want to ask how you became
- speakerinvolved in More Light
- speakerPresbyterians.
- speakerMaybe this is a good transition to
- speakerthat.
- speakerLike when was the first time you
- speakerheard about, I guess, then it was
- speakerprobably Presbyterians for Lesbian
- speakerand Gay Concerns?
- speakerWell, there were two groups, yes.
- speakerAnd so
- speakerI.
- speakerThis sort of context for this is
- speakereverybody said in high school and
- speakerall those tests said you should
- speakereither be a forest ranger or a
- speakerchaplain.
- speakerAnd you know, and you know, and I
- speakerthought later I've looked back of my
- speakerlife if I had been a chaplain, you
- speakerknow, at Yellowstone, that would be
- speakermy my happiest possibility
- speakerof all that coming together.
- speakerAnd I was at Louisiana State
- speakerUniversity at the time.
- speakerAnd you know, which is a big
- speakerdivision one school, football
- speakerparties, you know, all this stuff.
- speakerYou know, and and I didn't know,
- speakeryou know about seminary.
- speakerI didn't know about that and how you
- speakerchoose one.
- speakerAnd and
- speakeryou know, my dad was an engineer.
- speakerYou know, my mom, you know,
- speakerfabulous. But you know, they didn't
- speakerknow how you choose seminary.
- speakerSo I didn't have a lot of guidance.
- speakerAnd
- speakerso I
- speakervisited one that I thought was
- speakerpretty boring. And I'm not going to
- speakersay its name. But compared to LSU,
- speakerany seminary would be boring.
- speakerLet's just be clear.
- speakerAnd and then
- speakerI had these friends that I played
- speakertennis with, and I'd been a student
- speakersummer missionary to Zimbabwe, to
- speakerAfrica.
- speakerAnd so I was all about Africa,
- speakerand there was a mission conference
- speakerat a seminary in Texas.
- speakerAnd so I went and they had
- speakerjust built 12 new
- speakerlighted tennis courts.
- speakerWell, I was like, OK.
- speakerAnd it was the Africa Mission
- speakerConference.
- speakerAnd you know, so I signed up and
- speakerI went and then I realized, Ooh,
- speakerI don't think this is the place for
- speakerme.
- speakerAnd it was Southwestern Baptist
- speakerTheological Seminary.
- speakerAnd so in seminary
- speakeris I'm trying to figure out my call.
- speakerI didn't really fit in a box.
- speakerYou know, I didn't know.
- speakerI didn't think I was supposed to be
- speakera pastor because I was way too
- speakerhuman, much
- speakerless, you know, sexual, much
- speakerless gay.
- speakerAnd, you know, so I thought, No, I
- speakerdon't think so.
- speakerAnd and
- speakerI went to the counseling center
- speakerand I told the young counselor this
- speakerat the seminary, you know, I
- speakerthink I might be gay because I had a
- speakercrush on one of the guys I play
- speakertennis with and I'm still
- speakerdating women at the time, loving
- speakerwomen, you know, having
- speakersort of girlfriends
- speakerbecause that's what I was supposed
- speakerto do.
- speakerAnd he freaked out
- speakerand handed me a stack
- speakerof reparative therapy, conversion
- speakertherapy, ex-gay, pray
- speakeraway the gay materials
- speakerand and then he
- speakersaid, I can't talk with you about
- speakerthis.
- speakerSo I took that stuff home, and I had
- speakera bit of a background in psychology
- speakerand sociology and so forth,
- speakerand I looked at them and I thought,
- speakerI don't think so,
- speakerbut what it did was it
- speakerput up a big roadblock
- speakerto my affirming
- speakerbeing gay reconciling my sexuality
- speakerand my faith.
- speakerIt would still be a handful of years
- speakerbefore I would affirm
- speakerand be really comfortable in my own
- speakerskin.
- speakerAnd so, so
- speakerI stopped going to church
- speakerand and I decided,
- speakerwell, because I thought,
- speakerif you can't be a campus minister,
- speakeryou can go be a college professor.
- speakerThat's the closest thing.
- speakerSo I went to LSU to do my
- speakerPhD.
- speakerAnd as I was completing that,
- speakerI was recruited to take a position
- speakerat Northern Kentucky University
- speakerright across from Cincinnati.
- speakerAnd two things happened in
- speakerthat in that first year,
- speakera student in one and
- speakermy PhD is in communication.
- speakerSo I'm an old speech teacher.
- speakerOkay.
- speakerAnd so in a speech
- speakerclass a presentation class, one
- speakerof my students said
- speakerin a speech, "Gay people deserve
- speakerto die."
- speakerWell, I couldn't believe what I was
- speakerhearing and and luckily
- speakerthere was a student there, a
- speakernontraditional student who had moved
- speakerthere from New Jersey, who spoke her
- speakermind.
- speakerAnd and it was so
- speakerwonderful because the sat
- speakerthe class and I sat in silence
- speakerafter this guy said gay people
- speakerdeserve to die.
- speakerWhen he sat down, she said,
- speaker"Well, that was terrible.
- speakerI can't believe you said that."
- speakerAnd I was so grateful as the
- speakerteacher, the professor.
- speakerYeah.
- speakerFor a lateral correction.
- speakerBut then I went to the counseling
- speakercenter because I was concerned about
- speakerthis young man. He would do harm to
- speakerhimself or someone else
- speakerif he says that kind of stuff out
- speakerloud.
- speakerSo I went and met with the
- speakercounseling center director,
- speakerwoman named Ann, and
- speakershe had seen that I had an MDiv
- speakerand so forth.
- speakerAnd that featured into this
- speakerhow I got involved in More Light
- speakerin a very different kind
- speakerof path.
- speakerSo.
- speakerI first thing I
- speakertold her was what this young man
- speakersaid, and how do I make a referral
- speakerto you?
- speakerI think he needs some, some
- speakersupport.
- speakerAnd then I said, You know, we have
- speakera women's student center, you know,
- speakeran African American student center,
- speakerwe have an international student
- speakercenter, but nothing for for
- speakerLGBT students.
- speakerWhat year was this?
- speakerSo this was 1990, 1991.
- speakerYeah.
- speakerRight. Good question.
- speakerAnd so I
- speakerso I said, I want to
- speakerstart an LGBT
- speakerstudent group and I'll be the
- speakerfaculty adviser.
- speakerWell, and this is literally what
- speakerhappened, Ann started sucking in
- speakerair. Whoo.
- speakerWhoo!
- speakerAnd she said, "Oh, Michael,
- speakerthis is northern Kentucky and you're
- speakernot tenured." Well, I ignored
- speakerher and I met
- speakera few gay students and they were so
- speakerfrightened.
- speakerThere wouldn't meet on campus so we
- speakermet at my house for six
- speakerweeks, we met at my house and
- speakerfinally I said, you know, we really
- speakerhave to move on, move
- speakerout of my house.
- speakerAnd so I rented a Chinese
- speakerrestaurant, a room
- speakerin the Chinese restaurant across the
- speakercampus, and we met there.
- speakerAnd then I said, now next week,
- speakerwe're going to be in the student
- speakerunion.
- speakerAnd I got the mom from PFLAG,
- speakerthe wonderful parents group Marion,
- speakerto come in, and she was just
- speakerfabulous, just so loving and
- speakershe became everybody's mother as
- speakerthose good PFLAG moms and dads
- speakeroften do.
- speakerAnd you know, and then everything
- speakermoved from there.
- speakerThe other part of the conversation
- speakerwith Ann at the counseling center,
- speakerwho directs the counseling center,
- speakershe said, "Well, I see you have a
- speakerreligious background and a master's
- speakerin divinity.
- speakerWhere do you go to church?"
- speakerAnd so I said, "Well, I,
- speakeryou know, I haven't really found
- speakerone." And she
- speakerwent to a good Methodist church
- speakeracross the street.
- speakerNow it's significant that she did
- speakernot invite me to her church.
- speakerYeah.
- speakerShe said, "You know, I've read
- speakerabout a church across the river
- speakerover in Cincinnati
- speakerthat they have a strong social
- speakerjustice
- speakerwitness. And so maybe you should
- speakergo there." So it was Presbyterian
- speakermy background Mount Auburn
- speakerPresbyterian Church.
- speakerAnd so it took me six weeks
- speakerLiz to get the courage to go.
- speakerI just thought, Ooh, I haven't been
- speakerin a while, and what will it be
- speakerlike, you know?
- speakerAnd so I put on
- speakermy coat and tie.
- speakerI had my Bible under my arm.
- speakerI know when I walked in, they
- speakerthought I was a Jehovah's Witness
- speakeror a Pentecostal or something.
- speakerYou know, I walk in, you know, all
- speakerdressed up and you know, the tie.
- speakerYou know, the Bible.
- speakerAnd I sat down.
- speakerAnd literally a
- speakermiracle happened.
- speakerPaul Gibby the elder from session,
- speakerwas reading their welcome statement.
- speakerThat they had just passed
- speakerthe week before.
- speakerWelcome to Mount Auburn Presbyterian
- speakerChurch, a place where.
- speakerAnd they used the language back
- speakerthen, older language, gay and
- speakerlesbian people are welcome,
- speakerthey are part of God's good
- speakercreation.
- speakerEveryone is welcome here,
- speakerand I couldn't believe what I was
- speakerhearing after a silence.
- speakerFor all my life
- speakerto religious hostility in the larger
- speakerculture and
- speakerand I know I was, I was tearful,
- speakeryou know? And, you
- speakerknow, I just couldn't believe it.
- speakerAnd so that was the church that
- speakerloved me back to faith.
- speakerAnd so I'm indebted to Mount Auburn
- speakerPresbyterian Church, in Cincinnati,
- speakerOhio, the first welcoming
- speakerand affirming More Light
- speakercongregation in that state.
- speakerAnd the pastor at the time, Hal
- speakerPorter was on the board
- speakerof More Light Presbyterians,
- speakerand they had just merged
- speakerso Presbyterians for Lesbian and
- speakerGay Concerns that did all
- speakerthe wonderful advocacy work at
- speakergeneral assemblies for years
- speakerand the More Light Churches Network
- speakerinspired by West Park Presbyterian
- speakerChurch in 1978,
- speakerthey became the first welcoming
- speakerand affirming, and they use the More
- speakerLight language and the
- speakerreference to history.
- speakerAnd and so those two groups
- speakermerged and Hal was
- speakerpart of that process.
- speakerSo I was a volunteer
- speakerwith More Light Presbyterians
- speakerfor nine years.
- speakerAnd, you know.
- speakerWhat did you do as a volunteer?
- speakerWell, one of the things that we did
- speakerfor a General Assembly
- speakeris that we handmade
- speakerseveral thousand Love Matters
- speakerbuttons because
- speakerthere had been this anti-LGBTQ
- speakeranti-queer, anti-women,
- speakeranti-everything
- speakertheology matters,
- speakeryou know, kind of movement.
- speakerAnd you know it.
- speakerIt yeah, theology matters.
- speakerAnd what about the first and second
- speakerGreat Commandment to love God,
- speakerneighbor and yourself?
- speakerAnd so we
- speakermay we sat for weeks
- speakermaking these buttons with rainbow
- speakerbuttons to go to the General
- speakerAssembly and and
- speakerthen we did fundraising letters and,
- speakeryou know, all that kind of stuff.
- speakerAnd then
- speakerI said, you know, we ought to do
- speakereducation in our Presbytery.
- speakerWe have a, you know, a then,
- speakeryou know, very conservative
- speakerPresbytery.
- speakerAnd so we did.
- speakerWe found churches that we could do
- speakerdialog and panels.
- speakerAnd this is where I saw
- speakerthe value of allies
- speakerbecause there were really only
- speakera small group of us at that time
- speakerwho identified as LGBT or queer.
- speakerAnd the allies
- speakerjust wanted to be on the panels.
- speakerI mean, they just stormed us and
- speakersaid, "We want to talk, we want to
- speakerbe on the panel.
- speakerWe want to say, you know
- speakerwhat this means to us and how our
- speakerchurch has been transformed in our
- speakerfamilies.
- speakerYou know, we've opened up, this has
- speakerbeen so positive for us.
- speakerYou know, the sky didn't fall."
- speakerAnd so that's really,
- speakeryou know, how I was introduced to
- speakerMore Light Presbyterians and
- speakerwent to my first General Assembly
- speakerin 95 and it was
- speakerin Cincinnati and was part of the
- speakerearly dialogs and so forth.
- speakerBut I wasn't part
- speakerof the the primary
- speakergroup, you know, of
- speakerJanie Spahr and Bear Ride?
- speakerAnd and Donna Riley
- speakerand Scott Anderson
- speakerand Tony de la Rosa and
- speakerthe wonderful allies Sylvia
- speakerThorson-Smith and Mike Smith.
- speakerThose were the persons
- speakerthat, you know, kind of led
- speakerthings, you know, so I was
- speakerjust on the side.
- speakerI was the worker bee.
- speakerSo I'm
- speakerI'm fired from my position at
- speakerthe university.
- speakerI was going to happen with that.
- speakerYeah, because of the little
- speakeradvocacy group that you started.
- speakerThat's right.
- speakerYeah, absolutely.
- speakerIt was it was a terrible
- speakermoment in the life of this school
- speakerand certainly in my life.
- speakerAnd because Kentucky
- speakeris a right to work state and
- speakerwe still don't have federal
- speakerprotection.
- speakerYou know, they were they could do
- speakerwhat they wanted.
- speakerAnd so
- speakerwhat they did to get rid of me
- speakeris they took tenure
- speakerbearing criteria.
- speakerI was simply up for reappointment.
- speakerAnd and they said
- speakerI wasn't eligible.
- speakerOkay, yeah.
- speakerAnd in what later would be called
- speakerone of the worst cases of
- speakerdiscrimination in higher
- speakereducation.
- speakerAnd I filed a grievance.
- speakerI was the first faculty person to
- speakerfile a grievance based on sexual
- speakerorientation because I didn't want
- speakerother people to experience
- speakerdiscrimination, women,
- speakerpeople of color, other queer folk.
- speakerAnd so it created a real
- speakerfirestorm on campus
- speakerand and the students started
- speakerwriting letters to the paper and
- speakerthere were protests and they were
- speakerbanners.
- speakerAnd, you know, and
- speakerthe the people that were supporting
- speakerthis move
- speakerthought I was engineering it all,
- speakerand I wasn't, you know,
- speakerit was an absolute groundswell.
- speakerAnd I can say now that
- speakerthe university is a
- speakerremarkably different place.
- speakerI think in part to those students
- speakerand that official action that
- speakerI took.
- speakerAnd so
- speakerat the same time, my ordination
- speakerat Mount Auburn.
- speakerSo I've been ordained and installed
- speakeras an elder during these
- speakertimes.
- speakerOh okay yeah.
- speakerAnd and it was what would be called
- speakeran act, an action of ecclesiastical
- speakerdisobedience.
- speakerAnd
- speakerso I'm ordained and installed
- speakerand the day of
- speakermy installation, a
- speakerreporter was
- speakerthere and
- speakercalled my house afterward
- speakerto ask, "Were there any gay
- speakerpeople ordained today?"
- speakerAnd so I called, I said, "Well, I'll
- speakerbe happy to answer that question,
- speakerbut I need to talk to my pastor
- speakerfirst." So I called Hal Porter
- speakerand I said, "Well, Hal this just
- speakerhappened." And
- speakerand he said, "Well, what do you
- speakerthink about this?" And I said, "Hal
- speakerI can't be dishonest.
- speakerYou know, my faith in my family
- speakerin this church has taught me that I
- speakermust be honest and
- speakertruthful, and I would be out of
- speakerintegrity with myself
- speakerand my faith if I
- speakerdidn't tell the truth." And he said,
- speaker"Well, Michael.
- speakerWhatever decision you make,
- speakeryour conscience, your
- speakerfaith.
- speakerWe stand with you." Because
- speakerI didn't want to get the church in
- speakertrouble. That was my primary
- speakerconcern.
- speakerAnd of course, it did get the church
- speakerin trouble.
- speakerAnd so
- speakerconservatives in the presbytery
- speakerfiled a grievance against my
- speakerordination and
- speakerit went to every level of the
- speakerPresbyterian Church, to
- speakerthe Presbyterian Church Supreme
- speakerCourt, to the General
- speakerAssembly PGC.
- speakerAnd they ruled not on the substance,
- speakerbut on on
- speakeron the the sort of polity
- speakerissues and
- speakerand found us irregular, but but
- speakerdidn't punish us.
- speakerAnd so that
- speakerthat case was happening
- speakerat the same time, I'm being fired
- speakerfrom my job.
- speakerAnd so
- speakerthat would really lead
- speakerfor me.
- speakerI need to get out of this
- speakerconservative Midwest.
- speakerYou know, it's, you know, my
- speakerfaith is being challenged,
- speakermy professional life and my
- speakermy vocation's being challenged.
- speakerAnd so.
- speakerI looked at six cities around
- speakerthe country for,
- speakeryou know, a good LGBTQ community,
- speakersome kind of health and wellness,
- speakergood cultural stuff, hiking,
- speakertennis courts, of course.
- speakerAnd the first job that I
- speakerreceived was Santa Fe, New Mexico
- speakerand Santa Fe has
- speakerand and nearby
- speakerAbiquiu has Ghost Ranch
- speakerConference Center.
- speakerThe big Presbyterian conference
- speakercenter. And Hal was still
- speakeron the board of More Light
- speakerPresbyterians.
- speakerI had now moved to Santa
- speakerFe and More Light
- speakerPresbyterians was looking for
- speakerits first field organizer.
- speakerAnd they wanted someone
- speakerwho was an educator, a Presbyterian,
- speakersomeone LGBT, someone willing
- speakerto be out, if you will.
- speakerI don't like that language of out
- speakerand not out,
- speakerbut someone who would be able to be
- speakermore public.
- speakerAnd
- speakeryou know, and with
- speakergrassroots organizing and I'd been
- speakerthe director of Stonewall,
- speakerCincinnati, I'd done lots of things.
- speakerAnd so
- speakerbut I thought about that for other
- speakerpeople, the LGBT people
- speakerin the church that were being denied
- speakerordination or denied a call
- speakerand Hal came to New Mexico
- speakerhad had a board meeting
- speakerwith More Light Presbyterians.
- speakerI showed up to greet them because I
- speakerknew them. You know, as a volunteer
- speakerand I brought them, you know,
- speakerbrochures for the Georgia O'Keeffe
- speakerMuseum and all these cultural
- speakerthings.
- speakerOf course, Presbyterians never make
- speakertime for that. You know, you,
- speakeryou, you work until you
- speakerdrop or die.
- speakerAnd so, so anyway,
- speakermy showing up.
- speakerThey they were in the middle of this
- speakersearch.
- speakerAnd what happened, Liz, is
- speakerthat at the end of the meeting,
- speakerone of the board members said,
- speaker"Well, what about Michael Adee for
- speakerthis job?"
- speakerAnd so the
- speakerjob that it brought me to Santa Fe,
- speakerthe family was a, well, LGBT
- speakerwellness group, the founder had
- speakerdied. The group was
- speakerquite different.
- speakerI was not sensing,
- speakeryou know, that it was maximizing,
- speakeryou know, who I am and what I can
- speakerwant to do in the world.
- speakerAnd so Hal
- speakerasked to go to
- speakerdinner.
- speakerAnd he said, and this is northern
- speakerNew Mexico.
- speakerHe said, "Michael, I am tired of
- speakerrice and beans.
- speakerI want a steak."
- speakerSo so I took
- speakerhim to the local steakhouse
- speakerand he just simply asked, "How's
- speakeryour job going?" And my partner at
- speakerthe time, Kevin said, "Tell
- speakerhim the truth." And I
- speakerdidn't want to say to my pastor that
- speakerI loved and respected that the job I
- speakercame for and moved away from
- speakerCincinnati had, you know,
- speakernot worked out well.
- speakerHe's and then he looked at me and he
- speakersaid, "Well, I'm sorry, that hasn't
- speakerworked out. I know you really wanted
- speakerthat, you know, to work.
- speakerHave you ever thought about the
- speakerfield organizer job with More Light
- speakerPresbyterians?"
- speakerAnd I said, "Well, only for
- speakerother people." And he said, "Would
- speakeryou please consider it?"
- speakerSo that night, Hal was staying with
- speakerus in our guest room.
- speakerHe went to bed. Kevin went to bed
- speakerand I sat up.
- speakerAnd I always know when
- speakerI'm supposed to pay attention
- speakerbecause I get a tightness in my
- speakerthroat.
- speakerI'm like, Ooh!
- speakerAnd that's what I felt.
- speakerI thought, You know, I don't know if
- speakerI'm the person for this.
- speakerBut what I need to do is is
- speakerat least apply and
- speakerlet the spirit let the process,
- speakerlet discernment, you
- speakerknow, find its way because I looked
- speakerat the job description and
- speakerI really did fit 12
- speakerof the 13
- speakerthings they wanted
- speakeran IT genius.
- speakerAnd I'm not. I'm a practitioner, but
- speakerI'm not a not an IT genius
- speakerby any stretch of the imagination,
- speakerbut all of the others.
- speakerI had competency background in
- speakerskill and experience,
- speakerand so I sent the
- speakerchair of the search committee
- speakera simple note
- speakerand said I'd like to apply
- speakerand here are some materials.
- speakerOf course they were thrilled, you
- speakerknow, and I would only find this out
- speakerlater that that
- speakerthere was this conversation going
- speakeron in my head
- speakerand heart and conscience.
- speakerAnd in the More Light board.
- speakerAnd so shortly thereafter,
- speakerthey offered me the job.
- speakerAnd so in '99, I became
- speakerthe first field organizer, and then
- speakerthey expanded the position
- speakerto field organizer and executive
- speakerdirector. And then they just ended
- speakerup with the shorthand of executive
- speakerdirector.
- speakerSo I served
- speakergratefully for
- speakerthe next 12 years.
- speakerSo when I do the math
- speaker12 plus nine, I think
- speakerno. 13 13 plus nine is 21,
- speakerright? So I would I
- speakerwould get 21 years of my
- speakerlife to ordination policy
- speakerchange and set the stage for
- speakermarriage.
- speakerAnd so I look at it now with with
- speakertremendous gratitude and with some
- speakersurprise.
- speakerI mean, so many people that I worked
- speakerwith through the years Liz never
- speakerthought it would change in their
- speakerlifetime.
- speakerRight. Did you think
- speakerthat it would?
- speakerWell, I didn't know.
- speakerYou know, I'm hopeful, one
- speakerI wake up happy and
- speakerthen I have coffee and an English
- speakermuffin with extra butter and I'm
- speakerreally ready for the day.
- speakerAnd so I'm optimistic
- speakerby nature. I'm happy by nature.
- speakerI'm stubborn.
- speakerYou know, I prefer to say
- speakerI'm tenacious, not stubborn.
- speakerI just never give up.
- speakerAnd whether that's life
- speakeror work or belief or the tennis
- speakercourt, I don't give up.
- speakerAnd and I think that's one of
- speakerthe things that helped me
- speakerdo the work.
- speakerAnd I remember when I started,
- speakerI said to groups Presbyterian
- speakergroups and churches and campus
- speakerministries and seminary communities
- speakerI'd talk with. I say, You know this,
- speakerthis is not a sprint.
- speakerThis is a marathon.
- speakerThis is a long distance run.
- speakerSo, you know, let's take care of
- speakereach other. Let's be the church
- speakerwhile we're working for change.
- speakerYou know, please don't personalize,
- speakeryou know, the attacks that come our
- speakerway.
- speakerYou know, and it was clear to me
- speakerthat so many people had been hurt
- speakerand wounded
- speakerby by the oppressive
- speakerlanguage and oppressive action.
- speakerAnd that and that there were
- speakercasualties all around.
- speakerAnd so I would say
- speakerto folks, you know, you
- speakerknow, if you're LGBT and we didn't
- speakeruse the word queer as much at the
- speakerbeginning, we do now.
- speakerBut I would say, if you're LGBT,
- speakeryou know you were a gift.
- speakerEven if you're a family or church
- speakerdoes not know how to unwrap you
- speakerand and people love that, and
- speakerI watched them, I watched
- speakerthem. They would sit up straighter.
- speakerThey would smile,
- speakeryou know? Of course, there was some
- speakerhumor and Janie Spahr, my
- speakercolleague that I worked with for
- speakeryears.
- speakerYou know, Janie said, "You know,
- speakerMichael, the reason why
- speakeryou're so good is number one, you're
- speakera happy gay guy.
- speakerAnd number two, you helped break the
- speakerice.
- speakerYou talk about serious things, but
- speakeryou'll utilize some
- speakerof your southern humor and your
- speakerstorytelling and
- speakerto help people understand
- speakerand.
- speakerAnd so I I suspect
- speakerI'll take Janie at her word.
- speakerYou know, I often learn about myself
- speakerfrom others.
- speakerI think I know myself.
- speakerBut but I learned more about
- speakermyself.
- speakerYou know, by what other people say,
- speakerand obviously they have more
- speakerobjectivity than I do,
- speakerbut that's how I got started
- speakerand and I'm so grateful
- speakerfor the opportunity when I got
- speakerdiscouraged.
- speakerI would call my pastor Hal Porter
- speakerback in Cincinnati.
- speakerAnd and he would talk with me, and
- speakerhe would often say, "You know,
- speakerMichael, you're part of changing
- speakerthe history of the Presbyterian
- speakerChurch.
- speakerAnd when this happens,
- speakeryou know, you will have been part of
- speakerit." And then I thought, Oh, I can't
- speakergive up,
- speakeryou know?
- speakerAnd so I thought, OK, OK, all
- speakerright, stay in and stay in.
- speakerAnd you know,
- speakerit was people like Hal and others,
- speakeryou know that.
- speakerAnd I really learned the value
- speakerof a accompaniment.
- speakerWhat did that mean?
- speakerAnd I learned it from people
- speakerdoing that important justice work
- speakerin Central and South America,
- speakeraccompanying people
- speakerand becoming human rights shields.
- speakerAnd the Presbyterian Church had a
- speakerstrong program of
- speakerpeople within the Church of the
- speakerAccompaniment program, and it
- speakeroccurred to me, you know,
- speakerthat's what I must do,
- speakerand that's what I want to do is
- speakeraccompany people along the way
- speakerand to stand with them and to be in
- speakersolidarity.
- speakerAnd
- speakerand that really became the
- speakersort of ethical guide, but also
- speakerthe practical guide for me
- speakerthat it's about accompaniment.
- speakerI was going to ask, what did you do
- speakerthose first few years as a field
- speakerorganizer?
- speakerOh, that's a great question.
- speakerSo what I inherited was
- speakeran incredibly strong working
- speakerboard that
- speakerthat that and
- speakereach board member had a portfolio
- speakerand this was not a figurehead board.
- speakerIt wasn't just a policymaking
- speakerboard. I mean, it was a roll
- speakerup your sleeves working board.
- speakerAnd so I was really
- speakerfortunate and and
- speakerso I I was grateful
- speakerfor the board, you know, and that
- speakerplatform existed, you know,
- speakerfor me to stand with.
- speakerAnd then the history of
- speakerPresbyterians for Lesbian and Gay
- speakerConcerns.
- speakerand the More Light Churches Network,
- speakerthey done such good advocacy and
- speakereducation,
- speakerand so
- speakerin this new era of the combined
- speakergroups into one group.
- speakerYou know, we were really able to
- speakerto marshal.
- speakerAll the work that had been done to
- speakerthat point, and the truth is,
- speakerif you look at numbers of those
- speakergeneral assemblies, when I started
- speakerit, it was nine to
- speakerone against.
- speakerAnd then eight to two,
- speakeryou know, and I mean, it didn't look
- speakergood. And if you just look at the
- speakernumbers, the statistics and
- speakerand I remember Bear Ride, one of
- speakerour strategists on the board, you
- speakerknow, when we would lose at a
- speakerGeneral Assembly and it would
- speakerbecome, you know, seven
- speakerto three and then six
- speakerto four and then, you
- speakerknow, getting closer.
- speakerAnd she said, "Well, we're losing
- speakerforward."
- speakerThat's a good term.
- speakerWhich it really is.
- speakerIt's such a good term.
- speakerAnd, you know.
- speakerAnd that really crystallized
- speakerfor me when Bear said that
- speakerand I said, you know, we have to
- speakerhold ourselves differently.
- speakerYou know, in that.
- speakerAnd if we really believe in the kind
- speakerof church we we say we do,
- speakerand if we really believe God is at
- speakerwork, then it will
- speakerhappen.
- speakerYou know, and and for me,
- speakerit was being faithful
- speakerin each moment.
- speakerAnd I looked for educational
- speakermaterials because my background is
- speakeran educator.
- speakerAnd there were only two things that
- speakerwe had that were used
- speakeracross the board.
- speakerWalter Wing's Homosexuality in the
- speakerBible, which is a classic
- speakerone of the best pieces ever written.
- speakerProbably a little outdated now, but
- speakerit's still quite good because
- speakerit wrestled very faithfully
- speakerwith with those texts
- speakerthat are used in opposition.
- speakerAnd then a book that the
- speakerMethodists had put together called
- speakerClaiming the Promise,
- speakerwhich was a Bible study about,
- speakerif you will, homosexuality and
- speakersexuality, faith and so forth.
- speakerAnd I thought, "Oh, we got to get
- speakermore."
- speakerYeah.
- speakerSo my my
- speakerfirst work was, you
- speakerknow, looking for resources.
- speakerAnd one of the things that I did
- speakeris I went to the Presbyterian
- speakerCenter. I flew to Louisville
- speakerand I looked at their library
- speakerand I met with the educators and I
- speakerlooked at and all the materials
- speakerthat were possible.
- speakerAnd and Faye Burdick
- speakerhad just produced
- speakera wonderful curriculum
- speakercalled God's Gift of Sexuality.
- speakerAnd it was really
- speakera seminal piece for the Presbyterian
- speakerChurch for human sexuality,
- speakerfolks out in the academy.
- speakerYou know, it was, you know,
- speakera first step,
- speakeryou know, like, hmm.
- speakerBut for the person in church, you
- speakerknow, it was a big thing because
- speakerbecause same sex love or
- speakerhomosexuality or same
- speakergender loving relationships
- speakerwere taught.
- speakerIn an equal moral frame,
- speakerwhich disturbed some folks,
- speakerand so they went after the
- speakercurriculum and went after Faye,
- speakerwhich was very unfortunate.
- speakerBut those looking for those kind
- speakerof materials and what I realized
- speakeris we don't have a whole lot.
- speakerAnd so we'll have to write our own.
- speakerAnd so I began to engage people
- speakerto write papers
- speakerfor us.
- speakerAnd I'd met Erin Swenson,
- speakerwho's become a dear, beloved friend.
- speakerAnd people say that, you know, like
- speakeron Hollywood talk shows, no, we
- speakerreally are beloved friends.
- speakerAnd but
- speakerI had read about Erin, and so I
- speakercontacted her and I said,
- speakerwe need a paper, and I called
- speakerthem More Light On.
- speakerSo More Light On the Bible, More
- speakerLight On Mary, More
- speakerLight On the Sin
- speakerof Homosexuality.
- speakerAnd I said, I need one.
- speakerI'm transgender.
- speakerAnd would you be willing to write
- speakerthat? So she wrote the first More
- speakerLight On Transgender and then More
- speakerLight On Intersex.
- speakerShe said, Well, now we've done this
- speakerone, I've got another one for you.
- speakerI was like, Yes.
- speakerAnd you know, and so I was looking
- speakerfor thoughtful
- speakerfolks with comprehensive background
- speakerto put together these short pieces
- speakerthat were literally
- speakerand this is where the organizing and
- speakerthe education comes in.
- speakerBut I said, you know, Presbyterians,
- speakeryou know, we use so many words.
- speakerAnd I said, we have
- speakerto practice the economy of speech
- speakerand writing.
- speakerIt's got to be one page
- speakerfront and back.
- speakerThat's it.
- speakerNo more.
- speakerYou can have little citations.
- speakerYou can have links.
- speakerBut no, I want this condensed.
- speakerAnd they went like hotcakes.
- speakerAnd so the next thing I would do
- speakeris start going to presbytery
- speakermeetings and setting up around
- speakerthe country an education table
- speakerwith these materials and
- speakerthe Walter Winks and all those.
- speakerBut then I had these nice, wonderful
- speakerpapers that that
- speakerI would make copies of.
- speakerWe went to Presbyterian
- speakerWomen's annual
- speakergathering and I got to tell you it
- speakerwas that was the best thing we ever
- speakerdid.
- speakerGo to the Women's gatherings
- speakerPresbyterian Women's Annual Every
- speakerFour Years Triennial or something.
- speakerAnd the moms and the grandmothers.
- speakerI mean, our table was packed.
- speakerAnd again, I always tell
- speakerthe truth is that time raised, I
- speakerhave to live with myself.
- speakerThere would be four people deep.
- speakerWe had all these fun buttons in
- speakerthe love matters and other things.
- speakerAnd I mean, I even gave one of
- speakermy last button away because
- speakersome grandmother wanted to wear one.
- speakerAnd I would have to go over to the
- speakercopy shop and make
- speakermore copies, you know, like every
- speakerthree or four hours, because
- speakerthese were people
- speakerwho cared deeply about
- speakertheir children and grandchildren.
- speakerAnd they care deeply about
- speakerwhat kind of church they were.
- speakerAnd they just couldn't stand
- speakerit, that the church wasn't
- speakerfully loving excepting, and
- speakereven if they didn't get it,
- speakerthey got love and they understood
- speakerfamily and they understood
- speakerwhat it meant to be the church.
- speakerAnd you can tell all these
- speakeryears later, I haven't been to one
- speakerin a long time, but
- speakerI feel it. I can feel it right
- speakerhere of what that experience
- speakerwas.
- speakerAnd in those moments,
- speakerwe got the first people to
- speakersay, "My grandchild
- speakeris transgender.
- speakerWhat does that mean?"
- speakerYou know, and so I
- speakerrealize that what we were doing
- speakerwas making a difference
- speakerin their lives because
- speakerI could give them Erin's paper
- speakerMore Light On Transgender.
- speakerThis is what this means, you know,
- speakerand then affirm them and
- speakerin their love, in their curiosity
- speakerand in their care.
- speakerAnd they weren't getting that from
- speakera lot of people, you know, and a lot
- speakerof them came from churches where
- speakerit was just silent
- speakerand and some hostile
- speakerand.
- speakerBut yeah, so that's what I began to
- speakerdo as an organizer, and I typically
- speakerdid a week in a Thursday to a
- speakerTuesday, and I
- speakerwould I would secure a preaching
- speakerengagement
- speakerat a church.
- speakerI would set up meetings with
- speakerpastors, you know, on Monday
- speakermorning, usually a breakfast or
- speakerlunch.
- speakerYou know, we would do programs in
- speakerthe evening.
- speakerAnd I love doing them.
- speakerAnd you know, they were they became
- speakerkind of the model of
- speakergrassroots organizing.
- speakerYou know, in-person in the flesh
- speakerand made such a difference.
- speakerAnd in the
- speakerearly years,
- speakerif there weren't LGBT people,
- speakerif I was in a place where there
- speakerweren't any Presbyterians who could
- speakerbe safe in public, let's say
- speakerit's Alabama, where
- speakerI worked
- speakera number of years in a row
- speakerand there weren't any people who
- speakercould be on a panel.
- speakerAnd so I would contact Metropolitan
- speakerCommunity Church,
- speakerthe LGBT affirming
- speakerchurch, and say, "Could
- speakeryou send a couple LGBT
- speakerpeople to speak on our panel?"
- speakerYou know, and and we'd get a
- speakercounselor and,
- speakeryou know, but I always wanted the
- speakergrandmother in tennis shoes, you
- speakerknow, pearls and tennis shoes, you
- speakerknow, I always wanted the
- speakergrandmother.
- speakerAnd you know,
- speakerand it's the matriarchs.
- speakerIt's the elders, you know?
- speakerI mean, this is such a theme for
- speakerme these days when I look at the
- speakerworld and I look at social change,
- speakeryou know, who's really making it
- speakerhappen, you know, I mean, there are
- speakera few guys that they're doing
- speakerOK, but but it's
- speakermainly the matriarchs and the elders
- speakerand, you know, the grandmothers
- speakerand you know, those incredible
- speakerpeople that just, you know,
- speakerkeep at it.
- speakerSo that's what I did, you know, and,
- speakeryou know, traveled, Oh my.
- speakerAnd I used to tell people, I don't
- speakerhave money, but I have frequent
- speakerflier miles.
- speakerAnd those were wonderful
- speakerexperiences.
- speakerYou know, we call them More Light
- speakerWeekends or whatever.
- speakerAnd you know, if there was a
- speakerPresbyterian college or a seminary
- speakernearby, we'd do a program.
- speakerAnd I remember one of my
- speakerfirst ones at Princeton Theological
- speakerSeminary, Princeton, New Jersey.
- speakerThe students asked me.
- speakerI sent them a list of topics because
- speakerthat's what, you know, because I
- speakerdidn't want to.
- speakerIt's not one size fits all.
- speakerYou know, each context, as you know,
- speakeris so different. So I would often
- speakerwrite a group and say,
- speakerHere are 10 topics
- speakerwhat would you want us to
- speakerto focus on through the weekend?
- speakerAnd the students came back and said,
- speakerWe want you to talk about sexual
- speakerethics and marriage.
- speakerAnd I remember thinking,
- speakerWell, OK,
- speakeryou know, it's the now single
- speakergay guy, you know?
- speakerAnd you know, I'm like, What am I
- speakersupposed to talk about?
- speakerAnd so I had
- speakerto study up on on Christian
- speakersexual ethics and
- speakerin clergy sexual misconduct
- speakerand boundaries and all
- speakerthose things.
- speakerAnd so I found Marie Fortune's
- speakerwonderful work and others.
- speakerAnd so I had to do my own
- speakerlearning.
- speakerYou know, before I would step in
- speakerthat environment.
- speakerAnd I remember saying to them at the
- speakerbeginning, I said, "Well, I'm really
- speakergrateful to be here.
- speakerI do find it a little puzzling
- speakerthat you asked, you know,
- speakerthe the gay Presbyterian
- speakerto talk about Christian sexual
- speakerethics in marriage," you know?
- speakerAnd you know, because I felt a
- speakerlittle bit like, you know, an
- speakeroutlier.
- speakerAnd this was, you know,
- speaker19.
- speakerThis was 99 and 2000
- speakerand 2001.
- speakerSo way before marriage equality
- speakerbefore the Supreme Court decision.
- speakerAnd the students were so generous,
- speakerthey said, "Oh no, we know you
- speakercan teach us something," you know?
- speakerAnd so it was that
- speakerwas a transformative experience,
- speakertransformative experience for me
- speakerbecause they actually trusted me
- speakerto be able to share something
- speakermeaningful with them.
- speakerSo they they had not bought
- speakerinto the the line that all
- speakerLGBT people are immoral.
- speakerYou know, don't care about ethics.
- speakerAren't serious about their faith.
- speakerYou know, disregard the Bible,
- speakeryou know, et cetera.
- speakerYou know, they they already knew
- speakerdifferently because most
- speakerof them had grown up with a gay
- speakerstraight alliance in
- speakerhigh school.
- speakerYou know, they had had different
- speakerexperiences
- speakeras persons in their 20s and 30s.
- speakerYou know that that enabled them,
- speakeryou know? And then of course,
- speakeryou know, Bishop Gene Robinson
- speakerpopped up, you know,
- speakerthe first
- speakerordained the
- speakerfirst gay priest,
- speakerif you will, to be ordained a
- speakerbishop, an Episcopalian Church,
- speakerwhich was another flashpoint.
- speakerAnd so you had a religious authority
- speakerwho said, yes, I'm gay and Christian
- speakerand I have a partner.
- speakerAnd so there were all these moments
- speakerswirling around the Presbyterian
- speakerChurch that that helped
- speakerthe church find its way.
- speakerAnd certainly the Episcopalian
- speakerChurch and the Lutheran Church
- speakerand the United Church of Christ.
- speakerAll, you know,
- speakerhaving policy changes and
- speakerbeing more open,
- speakeryou know, made a huge difference.
- speakerAnd of course, the Unitarian Church
- speakerwas
- speakernever against, you know, anything
- speakerreally, except war.
- speakerI think they're against war for a
- speakerlong time.
- speakerBut, you know, so there were there
- speakerwere traditions out there
- speakerahead of us
- speakerpulling us into the future.
- speakerIn your position at More Light, did
- speakeryou work with other faith
- speakertraditions?
- speakerGreat question, yes.
- speakerAnd so when when I
- speakerstarted in '99
- speakerand I found that Methodist resource
- speakerClaiming the Promise, I
- speakeruncovered a handful of
- speakerpeople that would
- speakermeet and they were directors of
- speakerdenominational programs working from
- speakerchange within.
- speakerAnd
- speakerin the convener of that group was
- speakerAnn B. Day, who was the
- speakerfounder of the Open and Affirming
- speakerProgram in the United Church of
- speakerChrist.
- speakerAnd so a handful of us and we met
- speakerin Chicago and
- speakerin Chicago, was where two or three
- speakerof them lived.
- speakerAnd and of course, we always met
- speakerin January because hotels were
- speakercheaper. So it was like freezing
- speakercold
- speakerJanuary in Chicago is not fun.
- speakerNo I'm going to go in the summer or
- speakerin September.
- speakerAnd but we met and
- speakerit was for two
- speakerpurposes one for us
- speakerto kind of be in a circle
- speakerof people who did similar jobs and
- speakerto share best practices, but
- speakeralso to not feel
- speakerso isolated.
- speakerAnd because
- speakeras I mentioned, each group was in a
- speakerdifferent place, some further along,
- speakersome not yet.
- speakerWe could encourage each other and we
- speakercould see change over the ridge.
- speakerYou know, we could see it.
- speakerAnd there's nothing like that.
- speakerAnd then we decided we need
- speakerto create materials that
- speakerall of us can use.
- speakerYou know that that could be
- speakerecumenically
- speakervaluable and not
- speakerso Presbyterian
- speakeror so Lutheran.
- speakerAnd so
- speakerwe did that.
- speakerAnd then we decided to create what
- speakerwould be called the Building
- speakerand Inclusive Church Training.
- speakerAnd so three of us became
- speakerfacilitators, and this
- speakeris what we did ecumenical, which
- speakerwhich really helped every movement
- speakerso we would find a city
- speakerand a host church and
- speakerthen invite
- speakerpeople from every
- speakertradition, most
- speakerof them were within the Christian
- speakercontext.
- speakerTo be clear, a couple of them we did
- speakerwere interfaith,
- speakerwhich is, you know, always
- speakermeaningful but a little more
- speakerchallenging.
- speakerAnd so we did these
- speakerall over the country for years,
- speakerand it really
- speakerhelped. And you can imagine so we're
- speakerat a Lutheran church in
- speakerMinneapolis and then 10
- speakerPresbyterians are there and 15
- speakerMethodists and, you know, five,
- speakeryou know, from the Brethren Church
- speakerand so forth.
- speakerAnd we always made sure we had
- speakertrainers from different traditions
- speakerbecause, you know, our stories and
- speakervoices were pretty particular.
- speakerAnd and so
- speakerwe we developed a curriculum
- speakerand we'd move through it.
- speakerAnd one of the most
- speakermoving moments we did one
- speakerin Santa Fe where I live,
- speakerand I was so excited.
- speakerWe got a Lutheran church to host it
- speakerand a woman drove up from
- speakerAlbuquerque.
- speakerAnd for this weekend
- speakerand we did, we
- speakerstarted our Bible study about how do
- speakeryou address what people call the
- speakerclobber passage or the oppressive
- speakerpassages?
- speakerAnd finally, she raised our hands,
- speakersaid, "What's the good news
- speakerin the Bible?
- speakerI'm tired and I'm tired of these old
- speakermean verses." And
- speakershe said, "Where's the good news?"
- speakerAnd I looked at my colleague
- speakerRebecca. I looked at Emily
- speakerand I said, "Oh.
- speakerSomething to learn," and so
- speakerwe we told her, we said
- speaker"We're going to do our homework
- speakertonight and we're going to come back
- speakerand we're and we're going to we're
- speakergoing to answer your question."
- speakerSo then we changed the curriculum
- speakerand we started with
- speakerasking people,
- speakerwhat if you grew up in a faith
- speakertradition, if you grew up in church,
- speakerwhat were Bible verses that meant a
- speakerlot to you that were meaningful
- speakerto you? And
- speakeralmost without exception, Psalm,
- speaker139, just
- speakercame forward.
- speakerObviously, Micah, 6:6-8.
- speakerThe great commandment text.
- speakerYou know, certain stories.
- speakerBut but clearly
- speakerit was Psalm 139.
- speakerYou know that we are fearfully and
- speakerwonderfully made and that we were
- speakerknit in our mother's
- speakerwomb. And that was sort
- speakerof the golden text
- speakerfor so many people
- speakerbecause they had been
- speakertaught so differently, you know,
- speakerthat they were a mistake or an
- speakerabomination.
- speakerAnd so we did that for a number of
- speakeryears. And then we created
- speakernational conferences called Witness
- speakerOur Welcome.
- speakerThe first one was in DeKalb,
- speakerIllinois. The second was in
- speakerPhiladelphia. So two thousand two
- speakerthousand three, where we
- speakerhad a thousand or more people
- speakerfrom what we called the Welcoming
- speakerChurch Movement.
- speakerAnd so those
- speakerexperiences were really powerful
- speakerbecause people could come
- speakerand go, Wow,
- speakeryou know?
- speakerYeah.
- speakerYes, you know,
- speakerand we always had a
- speakerdisplay of the Shower of Stoles
- speakerproject
- speakerthat people could experience and
- speakervisit.
- speakerAnd another of my organizing
- speakertools when I would do these weekends
- speakeris that I would always order
- speakera set of stoles
- speakerand put them up in
- speakerthe church hall in a Sunday school
- speakerclass somewhere, and people
- speakerjust walk through it
- speakerand each stole has its story.
- speakerAnd it it's so powerful.
- speakerAnd I told Martha Juillerat at the
- speakerfounder of it, I said, Martha,
- speaker"These stoles get people out
- speakerof their heads and into their
- speakerhearts." And
- speakerit also gives them privacy.
- speakerYou know, nobody's yakking at
- speakerthem, even me,
- speakerand and they can just experience
- speakerthe story, each story,
- speakeryou know, and
- speakerand so that that became a powerful
- speakerpart of change
- speakerin the movement was the Shower of
- speakerStoles struggles project, I think.
- speakerAbsolutely.
- speakerWe would not have seen the change in
- speakerany of our traditions
- speakerwithout the Shower of Stoles
- speakerProject.
- speakerYeah, it was I was going to ask if
- speakeryou also worked with other advocacy
- speakergroups like what your
- speakerrelationship was with That All May
- speakerFreely Serve or the Covenant
- speakerNetwork.
- speakerUh-Huh. Sure, sure.
- speakerSo, you know,
- speakerMore Light Presbyterians
- speakerbeing the oldest,
- speakerbeing the first,
- speakeryou know, had some
- speakerresponsibility
- speakerto keep the early stories
- speakeralive
- speakerand to keep
- speakerthe focus on congregational
- speakerchange, you know, congregation
- speakerby congregation by congregation.
- speakerAnd I felt a real strong
- speakercommitment.
- speakerBecause regardless of what happens
- speakerwith a General Assembly policy,
- speakerwhat happens on the ground.
- speakerYou know, for folks and
- speakerso for me, it was always
- speakera both and it's advocacy
- speakerof the General Assembly.
- speakerIt's working for policy change, it's
- speakerthe changing of hearts and minds.
- speakerYou know, it's it's being with the
- speakergrandmothers of Presbyterian Women
- speakerand and it's working in a local
- speakercongregation.
- speakerAnd I think I'm somewhat unique in
- speakerthat.
- speakerBecause I was loved back to faith
- speakerby a congregation
- speakerand so so the context
- speakerof love and acceptance and
- speakerreconciliation and
- speakerinspiration came from a
- speakercongregation.
- speakerYou know, I wasn't a person in
- speakerseminary that that,
- speakeryou know, wanted to follow my call
- speakerI'm going to be a minister no
- speakermatter what.
- speakerI wasn't an already ordained
- speakerminister who was LGBTQ
- speakeror non-binary because certainly
- speakerpeople were back then before policy
- speakerchange, but
- speakernot able to be public,
- speakeryou know?
- speakerAnd so I'm really grateful for
- speakerThat All May Freely Serve and Janie
- speakerSpahr, because that was really
- speakeran inspiration, a person
- speakerand about personal ministry
- speakerand pastoral ministry.
- speakerAnd and then
- speakerthe Shower of Stoles.
- speakerWe worked closely, a
- speakerpure educational tool.
- speakerCovenant Network come along
- speakerreally to work with the churches
- speakerthat
- speakerwere larger,
- speakermostly who
- speakerhad a disparate kind
- speakerof congregation,
- speakeroften congregations with means
- speakerand wealth
- speakerand really wealthy people that
- speakerdidn't want change.
- speakerSome did, but most didn't.
- speakerNo matter what it was and
- speakeryou know, we want to keep it the
- speakerstatus quo.
- speakerAnd so the Covenant Network could,
- speakercould, could really work with
- speakerthose kinds of churches.
- speakerI would I would meet with some
- speakerpastors who would say to me,
- speaker"Well, you know, Michael, I'm with
- speakeryou personally, but I can't be with
- speakeryou publicly."
- speakerI was startled the first time
- speakerI heard that because I thought,
- speakerwell, that doesn't have integrity.
- speakerYou know, how do you live with
- speakeryourself, you know?
- speakerYou know, and I also know
- speakerthe constraints of working in
- speakercongregations with mixed
- speakerparishioners, you know, and
- speakera wide range.
- speakerYou know, it's it's a challenge.
- speakerAnd so you develop your message
- speakerand you develop your materials and
- speakeryou develop your tactics for change
- speakerand in a more slow
- speakermoderate place,
- speakeryou know, and so when I look at
- speakerthe movement, look
- speakerback, what I see is every
- speakergroup had its own
- speakerniche, its own value.
- speakerAnd and when
- speakerthere were tensions
- speakersometimes around fundraising
- speakerbecause people would get a letter
- speakerfrom More Light Presbyterians, from
- speakerCovenant Network, from the Shower of
- speakerStoles and That All May Freely Serve
- speakerto get money.
- speakerAnd I would have people say to me,
- speakerOh, Michael, I'd like to give you
- speakermoney, but I just gave to whatever.
- speakerAnd no matter if people are good
- speakerhearted, you know,
- speakerI didn't want us dividing people
- speakerup. You know, it just it felt
- speakerdivisive to me, people.
- speakerYou know, we're trying to be loyal
- speakerto everyone. And you know, we had
- speakerpeople, you know, we had people on
- speakermixed, on fixed incomes,
- speakeryou know, who were who were
- speakerstressing over this getting four
- speakeror five fundraising letters.
- speakerSo I I thought,
- speakerwell.
- speakerI asked Janie Spahr, That All May
- speakerFreely Serve, Martha
- speakerJuillerat of the Shower of Stoles, I
- speakersaid, Why don't we do some work
- speakertogether?
- speakerAnd I gave us the nickname of three
- speakersisters
- speakerI've seen a button that has that.
- speakerYep, yep. And I called us the three
- speakersisters, and I'm
- speakerOK. Yeah, I'm OK with that.
- speakerYou know, that's fine.
- speakerAnd it's a badge of valor for
- speakerme. And so,
- speakeryou know, I call us the three
- speakersisters. And then we began
- speakerorganizing multi-state
- speakertrips.
- speakerAnd Martha had a nice big van.
- speakerJanie, I would fly wherever Martha
- speakerwas.
- speakerAnd then we would travel together
- speakerand we would do church services
- speakertogether, and we would do education
- speakertogether.
- speakerAnd it created a model
- speakerthat later would be responsible
- speakerfor change at the General Assembly
- speakerbecause it would take everybody
- speakerworking together to get
- speakerthose votes, to get those changes
- speakerand then to live into them, as
- speakeryou know.
- speakerAnd but those three sisters tours
- speakerand they were a blast.
- speakerWe had more fun and we
- speakerwe loved each other and we
- speakerrespected each other.
- speakerAnd, you know, we did them across
- speakerthe south.
- speakerWe did them in the northwest.
- speakerWe did them in the Midwest.
- speakerWe did them in places that needed
- speakerto hear.
- speakerAnd many times we would
- speakerbe told that we were the first
- speakerLGBT Christians that they'd ever
- speakermet the first LGBT Presbyterians
- speakerand ever met.
- speakerAnd and by
- speakerthe end of it, Martha said, "Well,
- speakerI can tell your story and I can tell
- speakerJanie's story."
- speakerAnd you know, and
- speakerbut we I loved it and you
- speakerknow, it created a friendship
- speakerand a bond among us.
- speakerWe were already tight.
- speakerBut the
- speakerthe differences between our
- speakertactics, if you will,
- speakeror organize organizational
- speakerfootprint disappeared
- speakerbecause of that.
- speakerAnd and
- speakerand then it was about bridge
- speakerbuilding and working with Covenant
- speakerNetwork to say,
- speakeryou know, we've got this
- speakeropportunity.
- speakerWe're getting close.
- speakerHow do we work together at a General
- speakerAssembly or in education?
- speakerAnd I wrote grants very
- speakersignificant grants as the as
- speakerthe executive director for More
- speakerLight to hire people
- speakeron for the last two campaigns
- speakerthat were successful for
- speakerordination policy
- speakerand the first one
- speakerto to achieve the win
- speakerand the ratification at
- speakerthe General Assembly and then the
- speakerratification by Presbytery votes,
- speakerbut the second to fight the battle
- speakerbacklash.
- speakerOkay. You know, the repeal effort.
- speakerAnd so so
- speakerwe hired outside
- speakerfolks from
- speakerthe the Welcoming Church Movement
- speakerto to be our
- speakerour national they
- speakerthat, you know, get it Presbytery
- speakerlist and make calls
- speakerand talk with folks and answer
- speakertheir questions and
- speakerCovenant Network.
- speakerI loved working with Tricia Dykers
- speakerKoenig, who is one
- speakerof the best, smartest
- speakerorganizers, you know,
- speakerpolity expert.
- speakerAnd you can't you're not going to
- speakerhave change in the Christian Church
- speakerif you don't understand its polity.
- speakerAnd how to leverage its best,
- speakerand Trisha also had
- speakera Rolodex of
- speakershe'd gone to Duke
- speakerand McCormick,
- speakerso.
- speakerSo, you know, Tricia had this these
- speakertwo amazing networks
- speakerthat she could call upon and
- speakerand Trisha is no nonsense.
- speakerI mean, she's one two three four.
- speakerAnd for me, having a dad was an
- speakerengineer and it's one two three
- speakerfour.
- speakerYou know, it was like, you know,
- speakerTricia was like, "Yes, you're
- speakersinging in my song." You know, we
- speakercan't just pray, you
- speakerknow? I mean, we do need to pray,
- speakerbut it can't just be prayer.
- speakerAnd
- speakerand so you know
- speakerwhat I loved about that,
- speakerthose campaigns for ordination
- speakerpolicy, it set the stage
- speakerfor you unified work toward
- speakermarriage and marriage
- speakerpolicy change.
- speakerAnd that would not have happened.
- speakerAnd I'm clear on this.
- speakerIf we had not found a way
- speakerfor collegiality, for kinship,
- speakerfor for appreciation
- speakerof each other's strengths and
- speakerdifferences along the
- speakerway, and then for ordination,
- speakerbecause in some ways, marriage
- speakerwas harder and,
- speakeryou know, closer to people,
- speakeryou know and and
- speakeryou know.
- speakerMore visceral, it was more visceral
- speakerbecause, you know, it's now about my
- speakermarriage, you know, and
- speakerit really isn't about your marriage,
- speakerbut it's about marriage equality.
- speakerAnd if you really believed in
- speakermarriage, you'd want everybody to
- speakerhave it.
- speakerAnd but I,
- speakeryou know, I look back now.
- speakerI wish I was as smart in the moment,
- speakerLiz, or as
- speakerwise or as
- speakerknowledgeable. But but I look
- speakerback in hindsight and I can
- speakersee these things clearly, these
- speakerguideposts and moments.
- speakerAnd and it
- speakerreally did set the stage.
- speakerAnd you know, and
- speakeryou know it, it helps now
- speakerbecause, you know,
- speakernow the question is policy to
- speakerpractice.
- speakerYou've got the barrier has gone
- speakerto qualified queer folks
- speakerserving in the church.
- speakerBut you know, and are they
- speakergetting calls?
- speakerAnd I see the parallel
- speakerhistory and that's one benefit.
- speakerI'm 66, so
- speakerthis is not my first rodeo.
- speakerI've been around the church for a
- speakerlong time
- speakerand and I remember women.
- speakerAnd people saying, "Oh, I'd never
- speakerhave a woman pastor." I mean,
- speakerthey even said that to me
- speakerin conservative places, doing my
- speakerMore Light work.
- speakerYou know, and and I would just
- speakersay, "Well, why not?"
- speakerYou know, and I and
- speakerBear Ride told me once
- speakerthat that when I go into village
- speakeridiot, that that's a really helpful
- speakerskill.
- speakerYou know it just go, "Well, why
- speakernot?" And
- speakeror I would say, you know, "I'm
- speakerpuzzled.
- speakerPlease explain that to me."
- speakerAnd you know, and
- speakeryou know, so I, you know, I
- speakerlook back and I think
- speakerthe current equality movement
- speakerCovenant Network, More Light
- speakerPresbyterians, the others,
- speakercongregations working for change,
- speakerpeople working for change.
- speakerWe could learn a lot
- speakerfrom the early history
- speakerof women and
- speakerbattling patriarchy and sexism
- speakerand misogyny.
- speakerAnd I was schooled
- speakerearly on that,
- speakeryou know, underneath homophobia
- speakeris sexism is misogyny.
- speakerAnd that was a really helpful
- speakerinsight for me.
- speakerThat isn't just I'm against gay
- speakeror same sex sex.
- speakerIt's more
- speakerand and these things,
- speakeryou know, coexist.
- speakerAnd I would say now, I'm so
- speakergrateful.
- speakerFor the concept of
- speakerintersectionality, you
- speakerknow that we can address racism
- speakerand issues of class and income
- speakerinequality and climate
- speakerwith transphobia and everything.
- speakerYou know, this is all we
- speakerdo this and we show
- speakerup for each other. And you know, I
- speakerjust went wild with the women's
- speakermarches in 2016
- speakerand went to several.
- speakerAnd you know, and
- speakerI just I was fascinated
- speakerand inspired and blown away
- speakerby all the people showing up.
- speakerYou know you.
- speakerI'm sure you were part of some, too.
- speakerAnd it was it was remarkable.
- speakerJust remarkable.
- speakerYeah.
- speakerAnd I think that's
- speakerthat's where the movement's heading.
- speakerYou know, we're not there yet,
- speakeryou know,
- speakerfully.
- speakerAnd I think one because
- speakerhow do we deal with with
- speakeranti-racist church and society,
- speakera white supremist church and
- speakersociety? We're not there yet.
- speakerWe're sort of like, Ooh, ooh and
- speakerum or the
- speakertransphobia or the people
- speakerwho just shut down when someone says
- speakerI'm non-binary, just shut down.
- speakerAnd, you know, so we've got this
- speakerwork.
- speakerYou know, it's a both and again, you
- speakerknow, we do this and
- speakerthis.
- speakerAnd you know,
- speakerand I remember one General Assembly
- speakerLiz, years ago
- speakeras the More Light and people knew
- speakerme, I was the More Light guy, you
- speakerknow, and I'm 6'1" and I'm 200
- speakerpounds, you know, so I can't
- speakerI can't shrink into a room,
- speakeryou know? I mean, people just like,
- speakerOh, there he is again.
- speakerAnd but, you know,
- speakerso so the first
- speakerthere was a Taco Bell boycott
- speakerbecause of the Immokalee farmers,
- speakerright?
- speakerAnd so I went to that thing
- speakerand I learned and I got a button
- speakerand I wore the, you know, boycott
- speakerTaco Bell and
- speakerI and I spoke to that committee,
- speakeryou know, and someone came to me
- speakerafterwards said, "Why did you speak
- speakerto that committee? You're the More
- speakerLight guy." I said, "I
- speakerdon't only care about things that
- speakeraffect me.
- speakerWhat kind of Christian would I be?
- speakerWhat kind of human being?
- speakerWhat kind of Presbyterian?"
- speakerI said, "Of course I care."
- speakerAnd that was really interesting
- speakerto me that
- speakerI had been cataloged in a certain
- speakerway. And I think the movement
- speakerearly on had been cataloged,
- speakerand I don't think that's who we were
- speakerin our hearts.
- speakerBut I think it was necessary.
- speakerYou know, there was so much that had
- speakerto be done and nobody else was doing
- speakerit. You know, now
- speakerwe have an office
- speakerthat includes someone who works
- speakeron LGBTQ,
- speakeryou know, inclusion
- speakerand acceptance and policy,
- speakeryou know, work and you
- speakerknow, and so, you know, wow,
- speakeryou know, that's you know,
- speakerand it's done in the context of
- speakerwomen and racism.
- speakerYou know, in the racial ethnic
- speakerwomen's office, you know, it's it's
- speakerall there together.
- speakerAnd so I look
- speakerat that and I go, Wow, you know,
- speakerthat's, you know, I wouldn't want
- speakerjust a gay office,
- speakeryou know, I'd want a fun
- speakeroffice, to be clear.
- speakerBut I I think,
- speakerno, we we we cannot do
- speakerthat again. We cannot go back to
- speakersilos.
- speakerHas to be intersectional.
- speakerYes. Yes, absolutely.
- speakerWell, tell me I will ask just a
- speakerlittle bit about your decision to
- speakerleave More Light or leave your
- speakerposition as executive director.
- speakerWere you still executive director
- speakerwhen marriage was passed or had
- speakeryou already stepped down before
- speakerthen?
- speakerSo the first
- speakerovertures were were
- speakerin place.
- speakerOkay.
- speakerAnd the first the sort
- speakerof first round while and
- speakerwe were setting the stage, you know,
- speakerfor the policy change
- speakerthat would happen and it happened
- speakerquicker than I thought it would.
- speakerBut of course, the Supreme Court
- speakerdecision.
- speakerYeah, yeah.
- speakerSo, you know, those two decisions
- speakerpushed that.
- speakerToward the end of my time with More
- speakerLight, two
- speakerthings happened.
- speakerOne was I
- speakerreally felt like the equality
- speakermovement in the Presbyterian
- speakerChurch and within More Light.
- speakerWe had sort of the first
- speakerera
- speakerand, you know, of of
- speakerDavid Sindt and Rosemary
- speakerWallace and Sandy Brawders and all
- speakerthose allies, you know, kind of
- speakerbreaking the ice.
- speakerAnd then we had the
- speakervery clear movement
- speakerof solidarity toward ordination
- speakerpolicy change, and that happened.
- speakerAnd I really felt like the
- speakermovement deserved
- speakerand needed a different voice.
- speakerI've been at it a long time
- speakerand and frankly, I was kind of
- speakergetting tired of my own voice.
- speakerYou know, I'm sort of like, No, we
- speakerneed a new voice and we
- speakerneed a different voice and we need
- speakersomeone with a different life
- speakerexperience. I think
- speakerbecause I had grown up in the
- speakerPresbyterian Church and loved so
- speakerwell as a kid because
- speakerI had been loved back to faith by
- speakera welcoming, affirming congregation.
- speakerThat story was critical,
- speakerbut I think I really did.
- speakerAnd I think I was right about this.
- speakerThe thing stirring up in me, in my
- speakerconscience and my heart
- speakerand my brain was, you
- speakerknow, a new voice is needed.
- speakerYou know, I've done what what
- speakerI was called to do.
- speakerAt the same time,
- speakerI.
- speakerThe last couple of years with MLP,
- speakerI began, I knew.
- speakerOrdination policy change was going
- speakerto happen. I mean, we just saw the
- speakernumbers we knew.
- speakerAnd so I contacted the mission
- speakerdivision in Louisville,
- speakerand I said to them, I said,
- speaker"I've been looking at the maps.
- speakerYou know, they're Presbyterians in
- speakerover 100 countries.
- speakerWe have direct mission relationships
- speakerof about 50 countries.
- speakerSo ordination policy
- speakeris going to happen."
- speakerAnd I felt like we had
- speakera responsibility as the Presbyterian
- speakerChurch to give a clear
- speakerwitness
- speakerthat LGBT people were not
- speakera mistake were not an abomination.
- speakerThat even if you've been taught
- speakerthis, that's really not true
- speakerand that God creates
- speakerand loves all.
- speakerAnd so it's more than ordination,
- speakeryou know, it's more than ordination.
- speakerAnd the sin question
- speakerwould be dominant
- speakerfor a lot of these folks are, you
- speakerknow, in the U.S.
- speakerand around the world, you know, what
- speakerwill the the Presbyterian Church
- speakerof Ghana?
- speakerWhat will the Presbyterian Church of
- speakerMexico? What will they say?
- speakerHow will they respond? And
- speakerHunter Farrell was the director
- speakerat the time and just a brilliant,
- speakerthoughtful
- speakerfaith leader.
- speakerAnd he took me.
- speakerHe said," Yeah, you're right,
- speakerMichael. We've got to prepare."
- speakerAnd then I started working with
- speakerin my education with churches,
- speakeryou know?
- speakerAnd when I there are 80 countries
- speakerwhere it's
- speakerwhere homosexuality or same sex sex
- speakeror relationships are criminalized at
- speaker10, 10 with the death penalty.
- speakerYou know, so what we do has global
- speakerimpact. So I began to look beyond
- speakerthe Presbyterian Church (USA)
- speakerthat we had a responsibility for
- speakerwhat we taught and
- speakerwhat we said and how we
- speakerresponded.
- speakerBut we also had a responsibility
- speakerbecause what what I would call
- speakerreligious colonization.
- speakerAnd so, you
- speakerknow, we have some, some work to do.
- speakerAnd so I felt very committed to that
- speakerinternational arena, the global
- speakerarena
- speakerand.
- speakerAnd it and at
- speakerthe end of 2011, I was approached
- speakerby a philanthropist activist
- speakerwho heard me speak and read some
- speakerof the things that I put online
- speakerand said, "Michael, would you take
- speakerwhat you've learned?
- speakerWith More Light Presbyterians, work
- speakerin the Presbyterian Church and
- speakerecumenically and do that
- speakerglobally?"
- speakerAnd so this amazing opportunity,
- speakerso these two things, Liz,
- speakerI'm really sensing the equality
- speakermovement needs a different voice and
- speakera different life experience and
- speakera different vocabulary.
- speakerAnd and second, I really
- speakerfelt a call
- speakerto go to the global arena
- speakerand do what this philanthropist
- speakeractivist said.
- speakerAnd I told that person
- speakerI'd love to do that, but I
- speakercan't do it until after the
- speakerGeneral Assembly of 2012
- speakerbecause there will be a backlash
- speakerof a repeal and
- speakerI cannot leave
- speakerthe equality movement and More Light
- speakerPresbyterians.
- speakerYou know, I just can't
- speakerI can't in good conscience do that
- speakeras much as I was excited about
- speakerit and this person said, "It's
- speakerOK, we'll wait a year."
- speakerOh, my goodness.
- speakerAnd which was tremendous.
- speakerAnd so what that allowed
- speakerwas for More Light Presbyterians,
- speakerI did give them notice.
- speakerI I sat on the information
- speakerfor a long time
- speakerbecause I thought, how do I say this
- speakerto a group that I love
- speakerand to work I have loved.
- speakerHow do I say it?
- speakerAnd then and then second.
- speakerIt would be their decision, whether
- speakerI would stay or not.
- speakerTrue.
- speakerThrough through the General
- speakerAssembly, they were very grateful
- speakerthat I was willing to stay.
- speakerYou know, I knew how to set up the
- speakerbooth. I knew how to do this.
- speakerI knew how to do that, you know,
- speakerand there were other people could do
- speakerwonderful things, but there were
- speakercertain things that I just did every
- speakerassembly,
- speakeryou know? And so
- speakeronce once you know, we fought
- speakerback that that repeal initiative,
- speakerI was so excited that
- speakerPatrick Evans, who was a board
- speakermember at the time, was
- speakerinterested in serving as an interim.
- speakerAnd it was really helpful for More
- speakerLight to have an interim because I'd
- speakerhad a long tenure, you know,
- speakernine years as a volunteer, 12
- speakeron staff, that's a long time.
- speakerAnd so Patrick
- speakerjust did a beautiful job for
- speakera year, you know,
- speakercontinuing the work and
- speakerbringing his own creative self
- speakerto it, which really
- speakerpaved the way, I believe,
- speakerfor Alex
- speakerMcNeill to be called as
- speakerwhat historically was the first
- speakertransgender person
- speakerto direct a denominational
- speakerprogram, you
- speakerknow, and so it was like, Yes,
- speakeryou know, I didn't know that would
- speakerbe the result.
- speakerBut but, you know, honestly, it took
- speakermy stepping away.
- speakerThe board didn't want me to go.
- speakerYou know, they knew we still had
- speakerwork to do on marriage and other
- speakerthings.
- speakerBut they also heard my call,
- speakeryou know, to step in this new arena,
- speakerand they weren't surprised by it
- speakerbecause they had seen my education
- speakerabout the global arena.
- speakerAnd so, you know,
- speakeragain, it was sort of not exactly
- speakerstarting by scratch, you
- speakerknow? But in 2012, it's like,
- speakerOK, I'm taking on the world.
- speakerYou know, it was the big old
- speakerPresbyterian Church.
- speakerYeah, yeah.
- speakerAnd I'm going for the world.
- speakerNow the irony is
- speakerand the synchronicity.
- speakerAnd some people would say providence
- speakeris that that when
- speakerI met with the foundation that would
- speakerhold the fund.
- speakerI said, "You know, I'm I'm
- speakergrateful for this opportunity.
- speakerI will do things to the U.N.
- speakerand at the State Department.
- speakerYou know that that will be,
- speakeryou know, faith based and faith
- speakerrooted.
- speakerBut the world's a big place."
- speakerAnd when I look at the world and
- speakerdo an analysis, the
- speakermajority of the countries where
- speakerit's illegal to be gay, where
- speakercriminalization and persecution
- speakerexist are
- speakerare in Africa.
- speakerAnd that's a place I have some
- speakerknowledge of, and I lived there for
- speakertwo years.
- speakerAnd so I have some
- speakerappreciation,
- speakerother cultures and context
- speakerlike I don't I'm not as versed
- speakerin Asia, to be honest.
- speakerSo, so two things really
- speakercompelled me to say,
- speakeryes, I'm taking on the world,
- speakerbut can I begin the work
- speakeron the continent, which of course,
- speakeris 50 countries?
- speakerI mean, you know, it's a big place
- speakerand as you know.
- speakerBut they agreed to that.
- speakerAnd
- speakerand then I proceeded
- speakerwith with again learning
- speakerand growing and like, who's doing
- speakerthe work?
- speakerAnd again, accompaniment became
- speakermy key guide.
- speakerWho are the African faith leaders
- speakerand who are the African LGBTI
- speakerbecause that because that's the the
- speakerlanguage used most in Africa LGBTI
- speakerfor intersex.
- speakerAnd who who are the activists doing
- speakerthe work? And how can I support
- speakerthem?
- speakerAnd how can I be a part
- speakerof amplifying their voices?
- speakerAnd so it
- speakerit was a terrific opportunity
- speakerthat just sort of boomed.
- speakerAnd it's kind of like More Light
- speakerjust kind of boom, you know,
- speakeryou know, boom.
- speakerAnd so you know this one,
- speakeryou know?
- speakerAnd because I hate interviewing,
- speakeryou know, I'm sort of like, I'm
- speakergood, I work hard.
- speakerI I practice
- speakergood hygiene.
- speakerI've got a, you know, good
- speakerexperience. Just hire me.
- speakerI hate interview.
- speakerAnd so I'm really grateful
- speakerthat, well, I did interview,
- speakercertainly for the More Light
- speakerposition.
- speakerI was recruited for this last one
- speakerand I love what I do, but I
- speakerdon't forget where
- speakerI came from, and
- speakerI don't forget those early lessons
- speakerfrom from the More Light Church
- speakerwork because in
- speakermany of the context, I'm doing a
- speakerspecial project
- speakerin East Africa now
- speakerRwanda, Kenya, the Democratic
- speakerRepublic of Congo
- speakerand Rwanda and and
- speakerpart of it is just telling the
- speakerstories.
- speakerAnd helping, you know, the
- speakerAfricans, and of course, they're
- speakerbeautiful storytellers, they don't
- speakerneed help but how to navigate
- speakersafety.
- speakerYou know, when, when you know, and
- speakerhow to work with the media and
- speakerhow to do fundraising and how to
- speakerseek funding from a global north
- speakerfunder. I mean, it's hard enough for
- speakerme as a global north guy,
- speakeryou know, to figure out a funder
- speakerand ride a grant.
- speakerBut you know, these are folks that
- speakerthat that, you know, have not
- speakerhad that experience.
- speakerThey've had other wonderful
- speakerexperiences.
- speakerAnd so I'm doing strategic
- speakerphilanthropy development
- speakerfor activists in those four
- speakercountries and just having a great
- speakertime
- speakerbecause they know who they are and
- speakerwhat they what, what their vision
- speakeris. I just want to help stand
- speakerwith them and
- speakerjust say, you're doing a great job,
- speakeryou know, and people need to hear
- speakerthat,
- speakeryou know, and that change can
- speakerhappen, you know?
- speakerAnd in a way, I can share
- speakerthe short version, of
- speakercourse, of the Presbyterian
- speakerChurch with them.
- speakerWhen they think about working within
- speakertheir tradition, working
- speakerfor change, I can say, you know,
- speakerI didn't know it would happen, but I
- speakerstill kept at it.
- speakerAround twenty two years.
- speakerRight, right.
- speakerAnd so I'm the grandfather.
- speakerAnd then in the
- speakerin the global movement, clearly
- speakerand and well, I wish
- speakerI was the grandmother.
- speakerI could put some pearls on, I do
- speakerwear the tennis shoes, but.
- speakerBut it is interesting, as you know,
- speakeryour questions and
- speakerand your responses are so thoughtful
- speakerLiz, you've helped me just
- speakersort of reflect very meaningfully
- speakerabout all of this.
- speakerAnd it and it.
- speakerAnd it does feel like a seamless
- speakergarment.
- speakerYou know, this thread and
- speakerthis thread in this thread, in this
- speakerthread, in this thread, in this
- speakerthread.
- speakerAnd and it doesn't
- speakerfeel like an accident.
- speakerIt doesn't feel like a coincidence.
- speakerAnd it, it feels,
- speakerinspires me just to be even more
- speakergrateful.
- speakerAnd inspires me as well, it's
- speakerjust been incredible to hear
- speakerall of your stories and your
- speakerjourney.
- speakerJust I'm getting a little emotional,
- speakerjust thinking about it.
- speakerThank you so much for sharing.
- speakerOh, you're welcome.
- speakerYou're more than welcome.
- speakerAnd if any other questions you
- speakerknow, surface, you know, be happy
- speakerto reach back.
- speakerI've obviously given you more
- speakercontent than you ever wanted, but.
- speakerThis is fantastic, no thank you so much.
- speakerOh, you're more than welcome.
- speakerI've loved the opportunity and
- speakerand I'm so tickled by the
- speakerthe interest, you know?
- speakerAnd I remember the Pam Byers
- speakerCollection being put together
- speakerand named after her.
- speakerAnd of course, you know,
- speakerI was already in place with More
- speakerLight when Covenant Network was
- speakerstarted.
- speakerYeah.
- speakerAnd so I met Pam early
- speakeron, you know, always thoughtful,
- speakeralways generous.
- speakerTricia Dykers Koenig in
- speakerthe small world category had been
- speakeron the More Light board that hired
- speakerme.
- speakerOh, really OK?
- speakerYeah, yeah.
- speakerAnd then you know it
- speakerand then.
- speakerA not too well-known story
- speakerwhen they were looking for an
- speakerorganizer, one of their board
- speakermembers asked me
- speakerwho I thought and I said, "It's
- speakerTricia," you need to
- speakerhire Tricia. Tricia doesn't know
- speakerthis.
- speakerI don't think I don't think very
- speakermany people know this.
- speakerBut but I had so
- speakerwatched Tricia's work with More
- speakerLight Presbyterians first
- speakerPLGC. She and her husband
- speakerMark were part of that
- speakeras great allies.
- speakerAnd then I saw Tricia's work,
- speakeryou know, at general assemblies, and
- speakerI thought, if Covenant Network means
- speakerbusiness, they need Tricia.
- speakerAnd I also had learned she had
- speakerthat. As I mentioned, Duke,
- speakerMcCormick. I mean, you know, Tricia
- speakerknows every last.
- speakerYeah, yeah, yeah.
- speakerEvery last person, you know,
- speakerhonestly, she knows everybody
- speakerhad.
- speakerBut you know, and she,
- speakershe and Pam and their team, you
- speakerknow, worked very thoughtfully with
- speakerMore Light, you know,
- speakerand if any
- speakerof us had pulled out
- speakerand not been in solidarity, it
- speakerwouldn't have happened.
- speakerIt would have happened later.
- speakerBut you know, what I'm grateful
- speakerfor now is Matthew
- speakerDimming, you know, was
- speakerordained last year.
- speakerI was I was at the Zoom ordination
- speakerthing.
- speakerHe's a chaplain in
- speakerat Presbyterian Langone Hospital, a
- speakerchildren's chaplain
- speakerand
- speakera lovely guy who's
- speakermarried to one of my human rights
- speakeractivist friends, Ryan.
- speakerAnd so, like, my worlds collide
- speakerbecause I knew I knew Ryan first
- speakerfrom Human Rights Watch.
- speakerOh, OK.
- speakerAnd then, you know, I found
- speakerout, you know, he is married to
- speakerMatthew and I go, Well,
- speakerI've never met Matthew, but
- speakerI know who he is.
- speakerAnd I was at his ordination
- speakerby Zoom. And I'm like, Whoa,
- speakersmall world.
- speakerAnd but it's it's interesting
- speakerto me. I look at, you
- speakerknow, Matt
- speakerbeing ordained.
- speakerI look at.
- speakerAlex Irving, I look
- speakerat
- speakerthe new pastor, they're not going to
- speakerconnect you with Rebecca, the
- speakernon-binary candidate, and
- speakerthis is Cincinnati Presbytery, the
- speakersame Presbytery that filed charges
- speakeragainst me.
- speakerAnd not too many
- speakeryears later.
- speakerThey just take Rebecca
- speakeras Rebecca, a
- speakergifted, bright, thoughtful
- speakerPresbyterian person
- speakerwho says I'm non-binary,
- speakerI use they and them.
- speakerI saw a couple of little hmmm,
- speakerbut it was a unanimous
- speakervote.
- speakerI mean, I'm like, Wow,
- speakeryou know, now part of that is
- speakerbecause Rebecca is terrific
- speakerand gifted and thoughtful
- speakerand shares their faith
- speakerstories so beautifully.
- speakerBut it's still, there could have
- speakerbeen opposition.
- speakerYeah.
- speakerAnd there wasn't.
- speakerAnd I looked at some of those
- speakerbecause I joined that on them
- speakertoo. I got permission.
- speakerI joined that one and I'm looking
- speakerup going.
- speakerThat person filed a charge against
- speakerme. That person spoke against
- speakerme and our, you know, my
- speakerordination on the floor and
- speakernot, you know, said, you know,
- speakeryou know, is that God at work?
- speakerI hope so.
- speakerYou know, and I do believe so.
- speakerAnd I think it's also their
- speakerown journey to learn and be more
- speakeropen, you know.
- speakerTo change, yeah.
- speakerYeah, yeah, yeah.
- speakerAnd so now I'm convicted to think
- speakerabout where do I need to change?
- speakerYeah. So you know, it's still
- speakergoing, Liz. Well, thank you so much.
- speakerThanks for the work you're doing at
- speakerPHS.
- speakerIt's so important.
- speakerI can't tell you how important.
- speakerThank you, yeah. I'm grateful to be
- speakerdoing it, so.
- speakerYeah, that's wonderful.
- speakerThat's wonderful.
- speakerSo, so my my offer
- speakeris genuine.
- speakerIf anything else, or if
- speakeryou need a sort of a corrective
- speakeron something for me.
- speakerI will, yeah, and I'll send you an
- speakeroral history release form too.
- speakerOK.
- speakerThat you can look over and sign.
- speakerAnd I can give you a copy of this,
- speakertoo, if you want to rewatch anything
- speakeror, yeah.
- speakerOK, no I trust you.
- speakerI'm good.
- speakerYeah, I would only want to listen to
- speakeryou.
- speakerAnd then as we sign
- speakeroff, I'm going to connect
- speakeryou with Rebecca and Stacy.
- speakerOh, yeah, yeah, that would be great.
- speakerAnd I also don't have Erin Swenson's
- speakeremail address.
- speakerThat would be great.
- speakerOK, Erin, for sure.
- speakerOK, Stacy
- speakerand Rebecca.
- speakerYeah, I do know that Stacy is on
- speakervacation.
- speakerSo what I'm going to do is I'm going
- speakerto wait a week, but I will.
- speakerI'm putting a note in my calendar.
- speakerThe Presbyterian Mission calendar.
- speakerAnd but I'll connect you with Erin
- speakertoday.
- speakerGreat.
- speakerI'll do. I'll do a handoff
- speakerconnection.
- speakerOK.
- speakerIs that all right?
- speakerOh, that'd be perfect.
- speakerYeah, thank you so much.
- speakerYeah.
- speakerAnd then I will.
- speakerAnd then next week, I won't forget.
- speakerI will do Stacy
- speakerand Rebecca because I don't want to
- speakerhave something pop up in Stacy's
- speakeremail while she's on vacation, you
- speakerknow?
- speakerPeople get so few vacations.
- speakerYeah, particularly a pastor that's
- speakerbeen through the pandemic, you know?
- speakerYeah, yeah.
- speakerLet's give Stacy the week, yeah.
- speakerYeah, yeah, we'll give her a week.
- speakerSo thank you so much.
- speakerTake good care.
- speakerThank you, Michael. Yeah, have a good
- speakerday.
- speakerAlright, bye.
- speakerThanks, bye bye.