Michael Adee oral history, 2021.

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    All right, well, I thought I'd maybe
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    just go ahead and start by asking
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    you about your faith experiences
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    growing up,
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    if you really have anything like
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    really formative that you remember
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    about growing up, I think in the,
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    did you grow up in the Presbyterian
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    Church?
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    I did, I did.
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    And
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    my parents adopted me.
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    It was a, it was a
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    pre-birth adoption
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    and it actually was negotiated
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    after a session meeting
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    at First Presbyterian Church,
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    Billings, Montana.
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    My dad was an engineer
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    and he was
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    clerk of session and there was a
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    pediatrician, and this is 1955.
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    So ancient history that before
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    there were a lot of adoption
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    agencies and so forth and people
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    doing such things, things were done
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    privately.
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    And so a
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    pediatrician was
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    sort of, OK.
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    Anybody want a baby?
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    And so
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    my parents had adopted from
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    four years previous to me.
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    My older brother, Steve who's of
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    Cherokee descent,
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    and I didn't know the word biracial.
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    Growing up, I didn't really
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    understand his indigenous
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    background.
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    Those realizations would come later,
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    but what I realize is
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    that, you know, the The Crucible
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    for our family really is the
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    Presbyterian Church, and
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    it's it's the container
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    and the place where important things
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    happened, including,
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    you know, the arrangement of my
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    adoption, you know, so that's
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    way before baptism and way before
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    conversion, you know,
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    and and confirmation.
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    So my
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    dad was clerk of session everywhere
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    because engineers make good clerks
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    of session, you know, paying
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    attention to details.
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    And my mom was magnificent
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    about hospitality,
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    so she was often the person
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    if there was an illness or a death
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    to get a casserole somewhere
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    and my mom could get 50
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    casseroles in 100
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    mile radius in three hours, I
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    mean she was incredible.
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    So I grew up with this
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    very clear
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    hospitality at home
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    and hospitality at church
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    and and growing up as a little
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    one in the Presbyterian Church
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    and often in smaller churches.
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    Every child was valued, but we were
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    valued even more when they were just
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    six of us or four of us.
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    And so we moved to Louisiana
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    when I'm in third
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    grade. So that's what my memory
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    is more so than the early
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    time.
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    Most of my knowledge before
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    six is from family stories,
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    to be clear.
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    And but I was
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    so fortunate to grow up with these
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    amazing Sunday school teachers who,
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    you know, taught all the stories of
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    faith.
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    And I learned early on
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    that, you know, if you're going to
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    if you're going to score in Sunday
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    school and you know,
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    there are two things you can answer
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    and kind of hit it at 50 percent say
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    either Moses or Jesus.
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    So I sort of learned the drill early
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    on and had
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    just a wonderful experience.
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    And I'm grateful for
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    the reformed tradition and the
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    teaching of reason
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    and science.
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    You know that that that goes
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    hand in hand with social justice and
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    faith.
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    And so for me, it was always
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    a seamless garment.
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    Now, to be clear, you know, my
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    growing up in the Southern
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    Presbyterian Church, there were no
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    visible or known
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    women ministers.
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    And so, you know, women's
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    ordination was sort of the tempest
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    in the teapot in my growing
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    up as a child
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    and a young person.
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    And so that would be my first
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    learning about the church
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    and how it handled different
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    questions and how
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    the church could stretch and grow.
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    And so I'm I'm really
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    grateful for that background, and
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    I saw a harmony between
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    the faith and the values and the
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    ethics of our home
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    that that mirrored what
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    we were taught
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    and what was expressed
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    at church.
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    And so
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    there were four of us in our youth
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    group. Four of us confirmed,
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    you know, by the most patient
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    confirmation teacher God ever made
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    because we were four rascals.
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    And but
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    I look back, I've looked back a lot
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    at those formative people
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    who just loved us unconditionally.
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    And so when when someone
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    talked about the unconditional love
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    of God and God's grace and
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    God's mercy and God's compassion,
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    you know, it was the incarnation
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    for me at Westminster Presbyterian
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    Church in southwest Louisiana.
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    I mean. That's what I
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    grew up with.
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    And so when I began to look at
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    myself more closely and affirm being
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    gay,
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    you know, I bumped up into silence,
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    you know, and and back
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    then Presbyterians didn't do
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    sexuality in general really well,
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    you know, for heterosexual
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    identified folks.
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    But just silence, just
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    absolute silence
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    around queer folk and folk like
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    me.
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    Did you know of any queer folk
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    in the Presbyterian Church?
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    How old were you by the time
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    you heard of someone who was queer
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    in the Presbyterian Church?
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    Wow. Oh, that's a great question.
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    So.
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    No, I didn't.
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    I didn't really know anyone
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    inside our faith, tradition
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    growing up.
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    But but I read about Harvey Milk
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    in San Francisco.
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    Okay.
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    And then I read about Dave Kopay,
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    the NFL football player.
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    And so, you know, there were people
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    in society
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    and I remember my mom and I watching
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    TV, some talk show where Dave Kopay
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    came on and my
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    mom had grown up on a dirt poor
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    depression farm in West Texas.
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    You know, hard, poor,
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    not even encouraged to go much
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    beyond high school.
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    And she was a secretary.
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    And and when my dad came back
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    from World War Two, she put
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    him through college and
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    my mom had a lot of curiosity.
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    And so anyway,
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    Dave Kopay on well and I'm
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    almost 16 and I'm glued to this.
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    This is a gay NFL
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    player, you know, but I wasn't,
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    you know, like what's going on?
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    And my mom simply asked
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    at the end of the program
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    "Son, what?
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    What did the what?" And the word was
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    homosexual then to be clear,
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    "What do homosexuals do with each
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    other?" I said, "Oh mama, I have no
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    idea."
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    And I ran out of the room and
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    and, you know, I just love
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    it was. It was not judgmental
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    at all.
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    It was not harsh.
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    It was not, you know, off-putting.
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    It was just simple curiosity.
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    And when I think about my parents,
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    you know, they were terribly
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    romantic. And in recent years, I've
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    looked at all their, you know,
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    engagement and wedding pictures, you
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    know, and I'm like, Ooh, you know,
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    my parents were kind of sexy back
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    then.
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    You know, you don't want to think
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    about your parents.
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    I didn't want to think about my
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    parents being sexy.
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    You know, I was glad they were
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    romantic. You know, that was good.
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    And.
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    But I look back and and
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    for for each of them,
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    I think their lives
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    were so
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    they were in that bubble that
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    everybody was heterosexual,
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    you know, and opposite sex
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    loving. And so they didn't
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    grow up and didn't ever talk about
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    who they might have grown up with.
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    You know, so my exposure would
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    come really to
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    other LGBT people in the
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    Presbyterian Church.
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    Not until the 90s,
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    you know, so, so much later.
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    And then I would read about,
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    you know, Janie Spahr and Chris
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    Glaser and Howard Warren.
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    And then the story
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    that really caught my imagination
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    and my attention was
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    Reverend David Sindt.
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    And in 1974,
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    as a young Presbyterian
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    minister, he went to a big
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    Presbyterian General Assembly.
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    I mean, 1974, just,
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    you know, minutes after Stonewall
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    and held up a sign.
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    Is anybody else out there gay?
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    And that was that was what I call
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    the Stonewall of the Presbyterian
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    Church, the Stonewall moment.
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    It was a quiet one because we're
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    mostly polite.
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    And you
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    know, and I like that about us.
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    I like our civility.
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    I like our politeness.
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    I don't think politeness needs
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    to mean we shrink from hard
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    conversations, but that
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    we can do so with with
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    a lot of grace and respect when
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    when we when we didn't grow up with
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    the same life experiences or
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    beliefs.
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    And so I look at David Sindt
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    now, you know, I mean, he really was
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    the father, the mother, the.
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    The catalyst for for change
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    in the Presbyterian Church, and he
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    would inspire other queer
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    folk and then a lot of allies
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    to stand up with him.
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    And so
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    I I I really think
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    about those folks and I think about
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    the courage that they had,
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    the moral courage and the personal
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    courage
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    to to be open and out
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    against a silent
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    church who would steady you
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    and against a hostile
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    society.
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    And you know, I just feel like
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    all of us, you know, stand
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    on their shoulders.
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    That was very, very well said.
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    I love that story of David Sindt.
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    Holding up the sign,
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    we've had so many people sending
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    questions asking if we have a photo
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    of it.
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    And I have like torn the archive
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    apart.
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    I mean, not actually, but I just
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    can't find a photo anywhere.
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    And some people swear they've seen
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    the photos. Some people swear that
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    none exists.
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    And it's just like such a powerful
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    image that people think they've seen
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    a photo.
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    Right, right,
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    right. Exactly.
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    And I think that
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    in that search,
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    people have seen other people
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    holding up that sign.
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    Yeah, yeah.
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    And you know, and so
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    but no, I don't think an actual
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    photo exists and, you know,
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    unfortunately.
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    And, you know, so grateful
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    for the narrative and and
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    people who were there certainly have
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    verified the authenticity
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    of that moment.
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    You know, the people that would
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    create what was called
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    Presbyterians for Gay Concerns,
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    that's what it would call that was
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    the predecessor, as you know,
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    to More Light Presbyterians.
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    Yes, I do want to ask how you became
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    involved in More Light
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    Presbyterians.
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    Maybe this is a good transition to
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    that.
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    Like when was the first time you
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    heard about, I guess, then it was
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    probably Presbyterians for Lesbian
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    and Gay Concerns?
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    Well, there were two groups, yes.
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    And so
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    I.
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    This sort of context for this is
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    everybody said in high school and
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    all those tests said you should
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    either be a forest ranger or a
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    chaplain.
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    And you know, and you know, and I
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    thought later I've looked back of my
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    life if I had been a chaplain, you
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    know, at Yellowstone, that would be
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    my my happiest possibility
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    of all that coming together.
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    And I was at Louisiana State
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    University at the time.
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    And you know, which is a big
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    division one school, football
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    parties, you know, all this stuff.
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    You know, and and I didn't know,
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    you know about seminary.
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    I didn't know about that and how you
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    choose one.
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    And and
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    you know, my dad was an engineer.
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    You know, my mom, you know,
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    fabulous. But you know, they didn't
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    know how you choose seminary.
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    So I didn't have a lot of guidance.
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    And
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    so I
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    visited one that I thought was
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    pretty boring. And I'm not going to
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    say its name. But compared to LSU,
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    any seminary would be boring.
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    Let's just be clear.
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    And and then
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    I had these friends that I played
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    tennis with, and I'd been a student
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    summer missionary to Zimbabwe, to
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    Africa.
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    And so I was all about Africa,
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    and there was a mission conference
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    at a seminary in Texas.
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    And so I went and they had
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    just built 12 new
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    lighted tennis courts.
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    Well, I was like, OK.
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    And it was the Africa Mission
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    Conference.
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    And you know, so I signed up and
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    I went and then I realized, Ooh,
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    I don't think this is the place for
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    me.
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    And it was Southwestern Baptist
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    Theological Seminary.
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    And so in seminary
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    is I'm trying to figure out my call.
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    I didn't really fit in a box.
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    You know, I didn't know.
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    I didn't think I was supposed to be
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    a pastor because I was way too
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    human, much
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    less, you know, sexual, much
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    less gay.
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    And, you know, so I thought, No, I
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    don't think so.
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    And and
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    I went to the counseling center
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    and I told the young counselor this
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    at the seminary, you know, I
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    think I might be gay because I had a
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    crush on one of the guys I play
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    tennis with and I'm still
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    dating women at the time, loving
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    women, you know, having
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    sort of girlfriends
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    because that's what I was supposed
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    to do.
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    And he freaked out
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    and handed me a stack
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    of reparative therapy, conversion
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    therapy, ex-gay, pray
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    away the gay materials
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    and and then he
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    said, I can't talk with you about
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    this.
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    So I took that stuff home, and I had
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    a bit of a background in psychology
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    and sociology and so forth,
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    and I looked at them and I thought,
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    I don't think so,
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    but what it did was it
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    put up a big roadblock
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    to my affirming
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    being gay reconciling my sexuality
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    and my faith.
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    It would still be a handful of years
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    before I would affirm
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    and be really comfortable in my own
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    skin.
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    And so, so
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    I stopped going to church
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    and and I decided,
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    well, because I thought,
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    if you can't be a campus minister,
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    you can go be a college professor.
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    That's the closest thing.
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    So I went to LSU to do my
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    PhD.
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    And as I was completing that,
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    I was recruited to take a position
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    at Northern Kentucky University
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    right across from Cincinnati.
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    And two things happened in
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    that in that first year,
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    a student in one and
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    my PhD is in communication.
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    So I'm an old speech teacher.
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    Okay.
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    And so in a speech
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    class a presentation class, one
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    of my students said
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    in a speech, "Gay people deserve
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    to die."
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    Well, I couldn't believe what I was
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    hearing and and luckily
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    there was a student there, a
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    nontraditional student who had moved
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    there from New Jersey, who spoke her
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    mind.
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    And and it was so
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    wonderful because the sat
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    the class and I sat in silence
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    after this guy said gay people
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    deserve to die.
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    When he sat down, she said,
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    "Well, that was terrible.
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    I can't believe you said that."
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    And I was so grateful as the
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    teacher, the professor.
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    Yeah.
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    For a lateral correction.
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    But then I went to the counseling
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    center because I was concerned about
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    this young man. He would do harm to
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    himself or someone else
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    if he says that kind of stuff out
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    loud.
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    So I went and met with the
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    counseling center director,
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    woman named Ann, and
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    she had seen that I had an MDiv
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    and so forth.
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    And that featured into this
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    how I got involved in More Light
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    in a very different kind
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    of path.
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    So.
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    I first thing I
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    told her was what this young man
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    said, and how do I make a referral
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    to you?
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    I think he needs some, some
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    support.
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    And then I said, You know, we have
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    a women's student center, you know,
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    an African American student center,
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    we have an international student
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    center, but nothing for for
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    LGBT students.
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    What year was this?
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    So this was 1990, 1991.
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    Yeah.
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    Right. Good question.
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    And so I
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    so I said, I want to
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    start an LGBT
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    student group and I'll be the
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    faculty adviser.
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    Well, and this is literally what
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    happened, Ann started sucking in
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    air. Whoo.
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    Whoo!
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    And she said, "Oh, Michael,
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    this is northern Kentucky and you're
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    not tenured." Well, I ignored
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    her and I met
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    a few gay students and they were so
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    frightened.
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    There wouldn't meet on campus so we
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    met at my house for six
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    weeks, we met at my house and
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    finally I said, you know, we really
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    have to move on, move
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    out of my house.
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    And so I rented a Chinese
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    restaurant, a room
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    in the Chinese restaurant across the
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    campus, and we met there.
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    And then I said, now next week,
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    we're going to be in the student
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    union.
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    And I got the mom from PFLAG,
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    the wonderful parents group Marion,
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    to come in, and she was just
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    fabulous, just so loving and
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    she became everybody's mother as
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    those good PFLAG moms and dads
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    often do.
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    And you know, and then everything
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    moved from there.
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    The other part of the conversation
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    with Ann at the counseling center,
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    who directs the counseling center,
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    she said, "Well, I see you have a
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    religious background and a master's
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    in divinity.
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    Where do you go to church?"
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    And so I said, "Well, I,
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    you know, I haven't really found
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    one." And she
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    went to a good Methodist church
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    across the street.
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    Now it's significant that she did
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    not invite me to her church.
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    Yeah.
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    She said, "You know, I've read
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    about a church across the river
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    over in Cincinnati
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    that they have a strong social
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    justice
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    witness. And so maybe you should
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    go there." So it was Presbyterian
  • speaker
    my background Mount Auburn
  • speaker
    Presbyterian Church.
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    And so it took me six weeks
  • speaker
    Liz to get the courage to go.
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    I just thought, Ooh, I haven't been
  • speaker
    in a while, and what will it be
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    like, you know?
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    And so I put on
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    my coat and tie.
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    I had my Bible under my arm.
  • speaker
    I know when I walked in, they
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    thought I was a Jehovah's Witness
  • speaker
    or a Pentecostal or something.
  • speaker
    You know, I walk in, you know, all
  • speaker
    dressed up and you know, the tie.
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    You know, the Bible.
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    And I sat down.
  • speaker
    And literally a
  • speaker
    miracle happened.
  • speaker
    Paul Gibby the elder from session,
  • speaker
    was reading their welcome statement.
  • speaker
    That they had just passed
  • speaker
    the week before.
  • speaker
    Welcome to Mount Auburn Presbyterian
  • speaker
    Church, a place where.
  • speaker
    And they used the language back
  • speaker
    then, older language, gay and
  • speaker
    lesbian people are welcome,
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    they are part of God's good
  • speaker
    creation.
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    Everyone is welcome here,
  • speaker
    and I couldn't believe what I was
  • speaker
    hearing after a silence.
  • speaker
    For all my life
  • speaker
    to religious hostility in the larger
  • speaker
    culture and
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    and I know I was, I was tearful,
  • speaker
    you know? And, you
  • speaker
    know, I just couldn't believe it.
  • speaker
    And so that was the church that
  • speaker
    loved me back to faith.
  • speaker
    And so I'm indebted to Mount Auburn
  • speaker
    Presbyterian Church, in Cincinnati,
  • speaker
    Ohio, the first welcoming
  • speaker
    and affirming More Light
  • speaker
    congregation in that state.
  • speaker
    And the pastor at the time, Hal
  • speaker
    Porter was on the board
  • speaker
    of More Light Presbyterians,
  • speaker
    and they had just merged
  • speaker
    so Presbyterians for Lesbian and
  • speaker
    Gay Concerns that did all
  • speaker
    the wonderful advocacy work at
  • speaker
    general assemblies for years
  • speaker
    and the More Light Churches Network
  • speaker
    inspired by West Park Presbyterian
  • speaker
    Church in 1978,
  • speaker
    they became the first welcoming
  • speaker
    and affirming, and they use the More
  • speaker
    Light language and the
  • speaker
    reference to history.
  • speaker
    And and so those two groups
  • speaker
    merged and Hal was
  • speaker
    part of that process.
  • speaker
    So I was a volunteer
  • speaker
    with More Light Presbyterians
  • speaker
    for nine years.
  • speaker
    And, you know.
  • speaker
    What did you do as a volunteer?
  • speaker
    Well, one of the things that we did
  • speaker
    for a General Assembly
  • speaker
    is that we handmade
  • speaker
    several thousand Love Matters
  • speaker
    buttons because
  • speaker
    there had been this anti-LGBTQ
  • speaker
    anti-queer, anti-women,
  • speaker
    anti-everything
  • speaker
    theology matters,
  • speaker
    you know, kind of movement.
  • speaker
    And you know it.
  • speaker
    It yeah, theology matters.
  • speaker
    And what about the first and second
  • speaker
    Great Commandment to love God,
  • speaker
    neighbor and yourself?
  • speaker
    And so we
  • speaker
    may we sat for weeks
  • speaker
    making these buttons with rainbow
  • speaker
    buttons to go to the General
  • speaker
    Assembly and and
  • speaker
    then we did fundraising letters and,
  • speaker
    you know, all that kind of stuff.
  • speaker
    And then
  • speaker
    I said, you know, we ought to do
  • speaker
    education in our Presbytery.
  • speaker
    We have a, you know, a then,
  • speaker
    you know, very conservative
  • speaker
    Presbytery.
  • speaker
    And so we did.
  • speaker
    We found churches that we could do
  • speaker
    dialog and panels.
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    And this is where I saw
  • speaker
    the value of allies
  • speaker
    because there were really only
  • speaker
    a small group of us at that time
  • speaker
    who identified as LGBT or queer.
  • speaker
    And the allies
  • speaker
    just wanted to be on the panels.
  • speaker
    I mean, they just stormed us and
  • speaker
    said, "We want to talk, we want to
  • speaker
    be on the panel.
  • speaker
    We want to say, you know
  • speaker
    what this means to us and how our
  • speaker
    church has been transformed in our
  • speaker
    families.
  • speaker
    You know, we've opened up, this has
  • speaker
    been so positive for us.
  • speaker
    You know, the sky didn't fall."
  • speaker
    And so that's really,
  • speaker
    you know, how I was introduced to
  • speaker
    More Light Presbyterians and
  • speaker
    went to my first General Assembly
  • speaker
    in 95 and it was
  • speaker
    in Cincinnati and was part of the
  • speaker
    early dialogs and so forth.
  • speaker
    But I wasn't part
  • speaker
    of the the primary
  • speaker
    group, you know, of
  • speaker
    Janie Spahr and Bear Ride?
  • speaker
    And and Donna Riley
  • speaker
    and Scott Anderson
  • speaker
    and Tony de la Rosa and
  • speaker
    the wonderful allies Sylvia
  • speaker
    Thorson-Smith and Mike Smith.
  • speaker
    Those were the persons
  • speaker
    that, you know, kind of led
  • speaker
    things, you know, so I was
  • speaker
    just on the side.
  • speaker
    I was the worker bee.
  • speaker
    So I'm
  • speaker
    I'm fired from my position at
  • speaker
    the university.
  • speaker
    I was going to happen with that.
  • speaker
    Yeah, because of the little
  • speaker
    advocacy group that you started.
  • speaker
    That's right.
  • speaker
    Yeah, absolutely.
  • speaker
    It was it was a terrible
  • speaker
    moment in the life of this school
  • speaker
    and certainly in my life.
  • speaker
    And because Kentucky
  • speaker
    is a right to work state and
  • speaker
    we still don't have federal
  • speaker
    protection.
  • speaker
    You know, they were they could do
  • speaker
    what they wanted.
  • speaker
    And so
  • speaker
    what they did to get rid of me
  • speaker
    is they took tenure
  • speaker
    bearing criteria.
  • speaker
    I was simply up for reappointment.
  • speaker
    And and they said
  • speaker
    I wasn't eligible.
  • speaker
    Okay, yeah.
  • speaker
    And in what later would be called
  • speaker
    one of the worst cases of
  • speaker
    discrimination in higher
  • speaker
    education.
  • speaker
    And I filed a grievance.
  • speaker
    I was the first faculty person to
  • speaker
    file a grievance based on sexual
  • speaker
    orientation because I didn't want
  • speaker
    other people to experience
  • speaker
    discrimination, women,
  • speaker
    people of color, other queer folk.
  • speaker
    And so it created a real
  • speaker
    firestorm on campus
  • speaker
    and and the students started
  • speaker
    writing letters to the paper and
  • speaker
    there were protests and they were
  • speaker
    banners.
  • speaker
    And, you know, and
  • speaker
    the the people that were supporting
  • speaker
    this move
  • speaker
    thought I was engineering it all,
  • speaker
    and I wasn't, you know,
  • speaker
    it was an absolute groundswell.
  • speaker
    And I can say now that
  • speaker
    the university is a
  • speaker
    remarkably different place.
  • speaker
    I think in part to those students
  • speaker
    and that official action that
  • speaker
    I took.
  • speaker
    And so
  • speaker
    at the same time, my ordination
  • speaker
    at Mount Auburn.
  • speaker
    So I've been ordained and installed
  • speaker
    as an elder during these
  • speaker
    times.
  • speaker
    Oh okay yeah.
  • speaker
    And and it was what would be called
  • speaker
    an act, an action of ecclesiastical
  • speaker
    disobedience.
  • speaker
    And
  • speaker
    so I'm ordained and installed
  • speaker
    and the day of
  • speaker
    my installation, a
  • speaker
    reporter was
  • speaker
    there and
  • speaker
    called my house afterward
  • speaker
    to ask, "Were there any gay
  • speaker
    people ordained today?"
  • speaker
    And so I called, I said, "Well, I'll
  • speaker
    be happy to answer that question,
  • speaker
    but I need to talk to my pastor
  • speaker
    first." So I called Hal Porter
  • speaker
    and I said, "Well, Hal this just
  • speaker
    happened." And
  • speaker
    and he said, "Well, what do you
  • speaker
    think about this?" And I said, "Hal
  • speaker
    I can't be dishonest.
  • speaker
    You know, my faith in my family
  • speaker
    in this church has taught me that I
  • speaker
    must be honest and
  • speaker
    truthful, and I would be out of
  • speaker
    integrity with myself
  • speaker
    and my faith if I
  • speaker
    didn't tell the truth." And he said,
  • speaker
    "Well, Michael.
  • speaker
    Whatever decision you make,
  • speaker
    your conscience, your
  • speaker
    faith.
  • speaker
    We stand with you." Because
  • speaker
    I didn't want to get the church in
  • speaker
    trouble. That was my primary
  • speaker
    concern.
  • speaker
    And of course, it did get the church
  • speaker
    in trouble.
  • speaker
    And so
  • speaker
    conservatives in the presbytery
  • speaker
    filed a grievance against my
  • speaker
    ordination and
  • speaker
    it went to every level of the
  • speaker
    Presbyterian Church, to
  • speaker
    the Presbyterian Church Supreme
  • speaker
    Court, to the General
  • speaker
    Assembly PGC.
  • speaker
    And they ruled not on the substance,
  • speaker
    but on on
  • speaker
    on the the sort of polity
  • speaker
    issues and
  • speaker
    and found us irregular, but but
  • speaker
    didn't punish us.
  • speaker
    And so that
  • speaker
    that case was happening
  • speaker
    at the same time, I'm being fired
  • speaker
    from my job.
  • speaker
    And so
  • speaker
    that would really lead
  • speaker
    for me.
  • speaker
    I need to get out of this
  • speaker
    conservative Midwest.
  • speaker
    You know, it's, you know, my
  • speaker
    faith is being challenged,
  • speaker
    my professional life and my
  • speaker
    my vocation's being challenged.
  • speaker
    And so.
  • speaker
    I looked at six cities around
  • speaker
    the country for,
  • speaker
    you know, a good LGBTQ community,
  • speaker
    some kind of health and wellness,
  • speaker
    good cultural stuff, hiking,
  • speaker
    tennis courts, of course.
  • speaker
    And the first job that I
  • speaker
    received was Santa Fe, New Mexico
  • speaker
    and Santa Fe has
  • speaker
    and and nearby
  • speaker
    Abiquiu has Ghost Ranch
  • speaker
    Conference Center.
  • speaker
    The big Presbyterian conference
  • speaker
    center. And Hal was still
  • speaker
    on the board of More Light
  • speaker
    Presbyterians.
  • speaker
    I had now moved to Santa
  • speaker
    Fe and More Light
  • speaker
    Presbyterians was looking for
  • speaker
    its first field organizer.
  • speaker
    And they wanted someone
  • speaker
    who was an educator, a Presbyterian,
  • speaker
    someone LGBT, someone willing
  • speaker
    to be out, if you will.
  • speaker
    I don't like that language of out
  • speaker
    and not out,
  • speaker
    but someone who would be able to be
  • speaker
    more public.
  • speaker
    And
  • speaker
    you know, and with
  • speaker
    grassroots organizing and I'd been
  • speaker
    the director of Stonewall,
  • speaker
    Cincinnati, I'd done lots of things.
  • speaker
    And so
  • speaker
    but I thought about that for other
  • speaker
    people, the LGBT people
  • speaker
    in the church that were being denied
  • speaker
    ordination or denied a call
  • speaker
    and Hal came to New Mexico
  • speaker
    had had a board meeting
  • speaker
    with More Light Presbyterians.
  • speaker
    I showed up to greet them because I
  • speaker
    knew them. You know, as a volunteer
  • speaker
    and I brought them, you know,
  • speaker
    brochures for the Georgia O'Keeffe
  • speaker
    Museum and all these cultural
  • speaker
    things.
  • speaker
    Of course, Presbyterians never make
  • speaker
    time for that. You know, you,
  • speaker
    you, you work until you
  • speaker
    drop or die.
  • speaker
    And so, so anyway,
  • speaker
    my showing up.
  • speaker
    They they were in the middle of this
  • speaker
    search.
  • speaker
    And what happened, Liz, is
  • speaker
    that at the end of the meeting,
  • speaker
    one of the board members said,
  • speaker
    "Well, what about Michael Adee for
  • speaker
    this job?"
  • speaker
    And so the
  • speaker
    job that it brought me to Santa Fe,
  • speaker
    the family was a, well, LGBT
  • speaker
    wellness group, the founder had
  • speaker
    died. The group was
  • speaker
    quite different.
  • speaker
    I was not sensing,
  • speaker
    you know, that it was maximizing,
  • speaker
    you know, who I am and what I can
  • speaker
    want to do in the world.
  • speaker
    And so Hal
  • speaker
    asked to go to
  • speaker
    dinner.
  • speaker
    And he said, and this is northern
  • speaker
    New Mexico.
  • speaker
    He said, "Michael, I am tired of
  • speaker
    rice and beans.
  • speaker
    I want a steak."
  • speaker
    So so I took
  • speaker
    him to the local steakhouse
  • speaker
    and he just simply asked, "How's
  • speaker
    your job going?" And my partner at
  • speaker
    the time, Kevin said, "Tell
  • speaker
    him the truth." And I
  • speaker
    didn't want to say to my pastor that
  • speaker
    I loved and respected that the job I
  • speaker
    came for and moved away from
  • speaker
    Cincinnati had, you know,
  • speaker
    not worked out well.
  • speaker
    He's and then he looked at me and he
  • speaker
    said, "Well, I'm sorry, that hasn't
  • speaker
    worked out. I know you really wanted
  • speaker
    that, you know, to work.
  • speaker
    Have you ever thought about the
  • speaker
    field organizer job with More Light
  • speaker
    Presbyterians?"
  • speaker
    And I said, "Well, only for
  • speaker
    other people." And he said, "Would
  • speaker
    you please consider it?"
  • speaker
    So that night, Hal was staying with
  • speaker
    us in our guest room.
  • speaker
    He went to bed. Kevin went to bed
  • speaker
    and I sat up.
  • speaker
    And I always know when
  • speaker
    I'm supposed to pay attention
  • speaker
    because I get a tightness in my
  • speaker
    throat.
  • speaker
    I'm like, Ooh!
  • speaker
    And that's what I felt.
  • speaker
    I thought, You know, I don't know if
  • speaker
    I'm the person for this.
  • speaker
    But what I need to do is is
  • speaker
    at least apply and
  • speaker
    let the spirit let the process,
  • speaker
    let discernment, you
  • speaker
    know, find its way because I looked
  • speaker
    at the job description and
  • speaker
    I really did fit 12
  • speaker
    of the 13
  • speaker
    things they wanted
  • speaker
    an IT genius.
  • speaker
    And I'm not. I'm a practitioner, but
  • speaker
    I'm not a not an IT genius
  • speaker
    by any stretch of the imagination,
  • speaker
    but all of the others.
  • speaker
    I had competency background in
  • speaker
    skill and experience,
  • speaker
    and so I sent the
  • speaker
    chair of the search committee
  • speaker
    a simple note
  • speaker
    and said I'd like to apply
  • speaker
    and here are some materials.
  • speaker
    Of course they were thrilled, you
  • speaker
    know, and I would only find this out
  • speaker
    later that that
  • speaker
    there was this conversation going
  • speaker
    on in my head
  • speaker
    and heart and conscience.
  • speaker
    And in the More Light board.
  • speaker
    And so shortly thereafter,
  • speaker
    they offered me the job.
  • speaker
    And so in '99, I became
  • speaker
    the first field organizer, and then
  • speaker
    they expanded the position
  • speaker
    to field organizer and executive
  • speaker
    director. And then they just ended
  • speaker
    up with the shorthand of executive
  • speaker
    director.
  • speaker
    So I served
  • speaker
    gratefully for
  • speaker
    the next 12 years.
  • speaker
    So when I do the math
  • speaker
    12 plus nine, I think
  • speaker
    no. 13 13 plus nine is 21,
  • speaker
    right? So I would I
  • speaker
    would get 21 years of my
  • speaker
    life to ordination policy
  • speaker
    change and set the stage for
  • speaker
    marriage.
  • speaker
    And so I look at it now with with
  • speaker
    tremendous gratitude and with some
  • speaker
    surprise.
  • speaker
    I mean, so many people that I worked
  • speaker
    with through the years Liz never
  • speaker
    thought it would change in their
  • speaker
    lifetime.
  • speaker
    Right. Did you think
  • speaker
    that it would?
  • speaker
    Well, I didn't know.
  • speaker
    You know, I'm hopeful, one
  • speaker
    I wake up happy and
  • speaker
    then I have coffee and an English
  • speaker
    muffin with extra butter and I'm
  • speaker
    really ready for the day.
  • speaker
    And so I'm optimistic
  • speaker
    by nature. I'm happy by nature.
  • speaker
    I'm stubborn.
  • speaker
    You know, I prefer to say
  • speaker
    I'm tenacious, not stubborn.
  • speaker
    I just never give up.
  • speaker
    And whether that's life
  • speaker
    or work or belief or the tennis
  • speaker
    court, I don't give up.
  • speaker
    And and I think that's one of
  • speaker
    the things that helped me
  • speaker
    do the work.
  • speaker
    And I remember when I started,
  • speaker
    I said to groups Presbyterian
  • speaker
    groups and churches and campus
  • speaker
    ministries and seminary communities
  • speaker
    I'd talk with. I say, You know this,
  • speaker
    this is not a sprint.
  • speaker
    This is a marathon.
  • speaker
    This is a long distance run.
  • speaker
    So, you know, let's take care of
  • speaker
    each other. Let's be the church
  • speaker
    while we're working for change.
  • speaker
    You know, please don't personalize,
  • speaker
    you know, the attacks that come our
  • speaker
    way.
  • speaker
    You know, and it was clear to me
  • speaker
    that so many people had been hurt
  • speaker
    and wounded
  • speaker
    by by the oppressive
  • speaker
    language and oppressive action.
  • speaker
    And that and that there were
  • speaker
    casualties all around.
  • speaker
    And so I would say
  • speaker
    to folks, you know, you
  • speaker
    know, if you're LGBT and we didn't
  • speaker
    use the word queer as much at the
  • speaker
    beginning, we do now.
  • speaker
    But I would say, if you're LGBT,
  • speaker
    you know you were a gift.
  • speaker
    Even if you're a family or church
  • speaker
    does not know how to unwrap you
  • speaker
    and and people love that, and
  • speaker
    I watched them, I watched
  • speaker
    them. They would sit up straighter.
  • speaker
    They would smile,
  • speaker
    you know? Of course, there was some
  • speaker
    humor and Janie Spahr, my
  • speaker
    colleague that I worked with for
  • speaker
    years.
  • speaker
    You know, Janie said, "You know,
  • speaker
    Michael, the reason why
  • speaker
    you're so good is number one, you're
  • speaker
    a happy gay guy.
  • speaker
    And number two, you helped break the
  • speaker
    ice.
  • speaker
    You talk about serious things, but
  • speaker
    you'll utilize some
  • speaker
    of your southern humor and your
  • speaker
    storytelling and
  • speaker
    to help people understand
  • speaker
    and.
  • speaker
    And so I I suspect
  • speaker
    I'll take Janie at her word.
  • speaker
    You know, I often learn about myself
  • speaker
    from others.
  • speaker
    I think I know myself.
  • speaker
    But but I learned more about
  • speaker
    myself.
  • speaker
    You know, by what other people say,
  • speaker
    and obviously they have more
  • speaker
    objectivity than I do,
  • speaker
    but that's how I got started
  • speaker
    and and I'm so grateful
  • speaker
    for the opportunity when I got
  • speaker
    discouraged.
  • speaker
    I would call my pastor Hal Porter
  • speaker
    back in Cincinnati.
  • speaker
    And and he would talk with me, and
  • speaker
    he would often say, "You know,
  • speaker
    Michael, you're part of changing
  • speaker
    the history of the Presbyterian
  • speaker
    Church.
  • speaker
    And when this happens,
  • speaker
    you know, you will have been part of
  • speaker
    it." And then I thought, Oh, I can't
  • speaker
    give up,
  • speaker
    you know?
  • speaker
    And so I thought, OK, OK, all
  • speaker
    right, stay in and stay in.
  • speaker
    And you know,
  • speaker
    it was people like Hal and others,
  • speaker
    you know that.
  • speaker
    And I really learned the value
  • speaker
    of a accompaniment.
  • speaker
    What did that mean?
  • speaker
    And I learned it from people
  • speaker
    doing that important justice work
  • speaker
    in Central and South America,
  • speaker
    accompanying people
  • speaker
    and becoming human rights shields.
  • speaker
    And the Presbyterian Church had a
  • speaker
    strong program of
  • speaker
    people within the Church of the
  • speaker
    Accompaniment program, and it
  • speaker
    occurred to me, you know,
  • speaker
    that's what I must do,
  • speaker
    and that's what I want to do is
  • speaker
    accompany people along the way
  • speaker
    and to stand with them and to be in
  • speaker
    solidarity.
  • speaker
    And
  • speaker
    and that really became the
  • speaker
    sort of ethical guide, but also
  • speaker
    the practical guide for me
  • speaker
    that it's about accompaniment.
  • speaker
    I was going to ask, what did you do
  • speaker
    those first few years as a field
  • speaker
    organizer?
  • speaker
    Oh, that's a great question.
  • speaker
    So what I inherited was
  • speaker
    an incredibly strong working
  • speaker
    board that
  • speaker
    that that and
  • speaker
    each board member had a portfolio
  • speaker
    and this was not a figurehead board.
  • speaker
    It wasn't just a policymaking
  • speaker
    board. I mean, it was a roll
  • speaker
    up your sleeves working board.
  • speaker
    And so I was really
  • speaker
    fortunate and and
  • speaker
    so I I was grateful
  • speaker
    for the board, you know, and that
  • speaker
    platform existed, you know,
  • speaker
    for me to stand with.
  • speaker
    And then the history of
  • speaker
    Presbyterians for Lesbian and Gay
  • speaker
    Concerns.
  • speaker
    and the More Light Churches Network,
  • speaker
    they done such good advocacy and
  • speaker
    education,
  • speaker
    and so
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    in this new era of the combined
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    groups into one group.
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    You know, we were really able to
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    to marshal.
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    All the work that had been done to
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    that point, and the truth is,
  • speaker
    if you look at numbers of those
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    general assemblies, when I started
  • speaker
    it, it was nine to
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    one against.
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    And then eight to two,
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    you know, and I mean, it didn't look
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    good. And if you just look at the
  • speaker
    numbers, the statistics and
  • speaker
    and I remember Bear Ride, one of
  • speaker
    our strategists on the board, you
  • speaker
    know, when we would lose at a
  • speaker
    General Assembly and it would
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    become, you know, seven
  • speaker
    to three and then six
  • speaker
    to four and then, you
  • speaker
    know, getting closer.
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    And she said, "Well, we're losing
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    forward."
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    That's a good term.
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    Which it really is.
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    It's such a good term.
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    And, you know.
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    And that really crystallized
  • speaker
    for me when Bear said that
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    and I said, you know, we have to
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    hold ourselves differently.
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    You know, in that.
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    And if we really believe in the kind
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    of church we we say we do,
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    and if we really believe God is at
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    work, then it will
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    happen.
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    You know, and and for me,
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    it was being faithful
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    in each moment.
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    And I looked for educational
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    materials because my background is
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    an educator.
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    And there were only two things that
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    we had that were used
  • speaker
    across the board.
  • speaker
    Walter Wing's Homosexuality in the
  • speaker
    Bible, which is a classic
  • speaker
    one of the best pieces ever written.
  • speaker
    Probably a little outdated now, but
  • speaker
    it's still quite good because
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    it wrestled very faithfully
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    with with those texts
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    that are used in opposition.
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    And then a book that the
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    Methodists had put together called
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    Claiming the Promise,
  • speaker
    which was a Bible study about,
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    if you will, homosexuality and
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    sexuality, faith and so forth.
  • speaker
    And I thought, "Oh, we got to get
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    more."
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    Yeah.
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    So my my
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    first work was, you
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    know, looking for resources.
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    And one of the things that I did
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    is I went to the Presbyterian
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    Center. I flew to Louisville
  • speaker
    and I looked at their library
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    and I met with the educators and I
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    looked at and all the materials
  • speaker
    that were possible.
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    And and Faye Burdick
  • speaker
    had just produced
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    a wonderful curriculum
  • speaker
    called God's Gift of Sexuality.
  • speaker
    And it was really
  • speaker
    a seminal piece for the Presbyterian
  • speaker
    Church for human sexuality,
  • speaker
    folks out in the academy.
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    You know, it was, you know,
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    a first step,
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    you know, like, hmm.
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    But for the person in church, you
  • speaker
    know, it was a big thing because
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    because same sex love or
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    homosexuality or same
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    gender loving relationships
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    were taught.
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    In an equal moral frame,
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    which disturbed some folks,
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    and so they went after the
  • speaker
    curriculum and went after Faye,
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    which was very unfortunate.
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    But those looking for those kind
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    of materials and what I realized
  • speaker
    is we don't have a whole lot.
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    And so we'll have to write our own.
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    And so I began to engage people
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    to write papers
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    for us.
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    And I'd met Erin Swenson,
  • speaker
    who's become a dear, beloved friend.
  • speaker
    And people say that, you know, like
  • speaker
    on Hollywood talk shows, no, we
  • speaker
    really are beloved friends.
  • speaker
    And but
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    I had read about Erin, and so I
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    contacted her and I said,
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    we need a paper, and I called
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    them More Light On.
  • speaker
    So More Light On the Bible, More
  • speaker
    Light On Mary, More
  • speaker
    Light On the Sin
  • speaker
    of Homosexuality.
  • speaker
    And I said, I need one.
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    I'm transgender.
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    And would you be willing to write
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    that? So she wrote the first More
  • speaker
    Light On Transgender and then More
  • speaker
    Light On Intersex.
  • speaker
    She said, Well, now we've done this
  • speaker
    one, I've got another one for you.
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    I was like, Yes.
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    And you know, and so I was looking
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    for thoughtful
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    folks with comprehensive background
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    to put together these short pieces
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    that were literally
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    and this is where the organizing and
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    the education comes in.
  • speaker
    But I said, you know, Presbyterians,
  • speaker
    you know, we use so many words.
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    And I said, we have
  • speaker
    to practice the economy of speech
  • speaker
    and writing.
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    It's got to be one page
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    front and back.
  • speaker
    That's it.
  • speaker
    No more.
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    You can have little citations.
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    You can have links.
  • speaker
    But no, I want this condensed.
  • speaker
    And they went like hotcakes.
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    And so the next thing I would do
  • speaker
    is start going to presbytery
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    meetings and setting up around
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    the country an education table
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    with these materials and
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    the Walter Winks and all those.
  • speaker
    But then I had these nice, wonderful
  • speaker
    papers that that
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    I would make copies of.
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    We went to Presbyterian
  • speaker
    Women's annual
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    gathering and I got to tell you it
  • speaker
    was that was the best thing we ever
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    did.
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    Go to the Women's gatherings
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    Presbyterian Women's Annual Every
  • speaker
    Four Years Triennial or something.
  • speaker
    And the moms and the grandmothers.
  • speaker
    I mean, our table was packed.
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    And again, I always tell
  • speaker
    the truth is that time raised, I
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    have to live with myself.
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    There would be four people deep.
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    We had all these fun buttons in
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    the love matters and other things.
  • speaker
    And I mean, I even gave one of
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    my last button away because
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    some grandmother wanted to wear one.
  • speaker
    And I would have to go over to the
  • speaker
    copy shop and make
  • speaker
    more copies, you know, like every
  • speaker
    three or four hours, because
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    these were people
  • speaker
    who cared deeply about
  • speaker
    their children and grandchildren.
  • speaker
    And they care deeply about
  • speaker
    what kind of church they were.
  • speaker
    And they just couldn't stand
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    it, that the church wasn't
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    fully loving excepting, and
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    even if they didn't get it,
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    they got love and they understood
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    family and they understood
  • speaker
    what it meant to be the church.
  • speaker
    And you can tell all these
  • speaker
    years later, I haven't been to one
  • speaker
    in a long time, but
  • speaker
    I feel it. I can feel it right
  • speaker
    here of what that experience
  • speaker
    was.
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    And in those moments,
  • speaker
    we got the first people to
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    say, "My grandchild
  • speaker
    is transgender.
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    What does that mean?"
  • speaker
    You know, and so I
  • speaker
    realize that what we were doing
  • speaker
    was making a difference
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    in their lives because
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    I could give them Erin's paper
  • speaker
    More Light On Transgender.
  • speaker
    This is what this means, you know,
  • speaker
    and then affirm them and
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    in their love, in their curiosity
  • speaker
    and in their care.
  • speaker
    And they weren't getting that from
  • speaker
    a lot of people, you know, and a lot
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    of them came from churches where
  • speaker
    it was just silent
  • speaker
    and and some hostile
  • speaker
    and.
  • speaker
    But yeah, so that's what I began to
  • speaker
    do as an organizer, and I typically
  • speaker
    did a week in a Thursday to a
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    Tuesday, and I
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    would I would secure a preaching
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    engagement
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    at a church.
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    I would set up meetings with
  • speaker
    pastors, you know, on Monday
  • speaker
    morning, usually a breakfast or
  • speaker
    lunch.
  • speaker
    You know, we would do programs in
  • speaker
    the evening.
  • speaker
    And I love doing them.
  • speaker
    And you know, they were they became
  • speaker
    kind of the model of
  • speaker
    grassroots organizing.
  • speaker
    You know, in-person in the flesh
  • speaker
    and made such a difference.
  • speaker
    And in the
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    early years,
  • speaker
    if there weren't LGBT people,
  • speaker
    if I was in a place where there
  • speaker
    weren't any Presbyterians who could
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    be safe in public, let's say
  • speaker
    it's Alabama, where
  • speaker
    I worked
  • speaker
    a number of years in a row
  • speaker
    and there weren't any people who
  • speaker
    could be on a panel.
  • speaker
    And so I would contact Metropolitan
  • speaker
    Community Church,
  • speaker
    the LGBT affirming
  • speaker
    church, and say, "Could
  • speaker
    you send a couple LGBT
  • speaker
    people to speak on our panel?"
  • speaker
    You know, and and we'd get a
  • speaker
    counselor and,
  • speaker
    you know, but I always wanted the
  • speaker
    grandmother in tennis shoes, you
  • speaker
    know, pearls and tennis shoes, you
  • speaker
    know, I always wanted the
  • speaker
    grandmother.
  • speaker
    And you know,
  • speaker
    and it's the matriarchs.
  • speaker
    It's the elders, you know?
  • speaker
    I mean, this is such a theme for
  • speaker
    me these days when I look at the
  • speaker
    world and I look at social change,
  • speaker
    you know, who's really making it
  • speaker
    happen, you know, I mean, there are
  • speaker
    a few guys that they're doing
  • speaker
    OK, but but it's
  • speaker
    mainly the matriarchs and the elders
  • speaker
    and, you know, the grandmothers
  • speaker
    and you know, those incredible
  • speaker
    people that just, you know,
  • speaker
    keep at it.
  • speaker
    So that's what I did, you know, and,
  • speaker
    you know, traveled, Oh my.
  • speaker
    And I used to tell people, I don't
  • speaker
    have money, but I have frequent
  • speaker
    flier miles.
  • speaker
    And those were wonderful
  • speaker
    experiences.
  • speaker
    You know, we call them More Light
  • speaker
    Weekends or whatever.
  • speaker
    And you know, if there was a
  • speaker
    Presbyterian college or a seminary
  • speaker
    nearby, we'd do a program.
  • speaker
    And I remember one of my
  • speaker
    first ones at Princeton Theological
  • speaker
    Seminary, Princeton, New Jersey.
  • speaker
    The students asked me.
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    I sent them a list of topics because
  • speaker
    that's what, you know, because I
  • speaker
    didn't want to.
  • speaker
    It's not one size fits all.
  • speaker
    You know, each context, as you know,
  • speaker
    is so different. So I would often
  • speaker
    write a group and say,
  • speaker
    Here are 10 topics
  • speaker
    what would you want us to
  • speaker
    to focus on through the weekend?
  • speaker
    And the students came back and said,
  • speaker
    We want you to talk about sexual
  • speaker
    ethics and marriage.
  • speaker
    And I remember thinking,
  • speaker
    Well, OK,
  • speaker
    you know, it's the now single
  • speaker
    gay guy, you know?
  • speaker
    And you know, I'm like, What am I
  • speaker
    supposed to talk about?
  • speaker
    And so I had
  • speaker
    to study up on on Christian
  • speaker
    sexual ethics and
  • speaker
    in clergy sexual misconduct
  • speaker
    and boundaries and all
  • speaker
    those things.
  • speaker
    And so I found Marie Fortune's
  • speaker
    wonderful work and others.
  • speaker
    And so I had to do my own
  • speaker
    learning.
  • speaker
    You know, before I would step in
  • speaker
    that environment.
  • speaker
    And I remember saying to them at the
  • speaker
    beginning, I said, "Well, I'm really
  • speaker
    grateful to be here.
  • speaker
    I do find it a little puzzling
  • speaker
    that you asked, you know,
  • speaker
    the the gay Presbyterian
  • speaker
    to talk about Christian sexual
  • speaker
    ethics in marriage," you know?
  • speaker
    And you know, because I felt a
  • speaker
    little bit like, you know, an
  • speaker
    outlier.
  • speaker
    And this was, you know,
  • speaker
    19.
  • speaker
    This was 99 and 2000
  • speaker
    and 2001.
  • speaker
    So way before marriage equality
  • speaker
    before the Supreme Court decision.
  • speaker
    And the students were so generous,
  • speaker
    they said, "Oh no, we know you
  • speaker
    can teach us something," you know?
  • speaker
    And so it was that
  • speaker
    was a transformative experience,
  • speaker
    transformative experience for me
  • speaker
    because they actually trusted me
  • speaker
    to be able to share something
  • speaker
    meaningful with them.
  • speaker
    So they they had not bought
  • speaker
    into the the line that all
  • speaker
    LGBT people are immoral.
  • speaker
    You know, don't care about ethics.
  • speaker
    Aren't serious about their faith.
  • speaker
    You know, disregard the Bible,
  • speaker
    you know, et cetera.
  • speaker
    You know, they they already knew
  • speaker
    differently because most
  • speaker
    of them had grown up with a gay
  • speaker
    straight alliance in
  • speaker
    high school.
  • speaker
    You know, they had had different
  • speaker
    experiences
  • speaker
    as persons in their 20s and 30s.
  • speaker
    You know that that enabled them,
  • speaker
    you know? And then of course,
  • speaker
    you know, Bishop Gene Robinson
  • speaker
    popped up, you know,
  • speaker
    the first
  • speaker
    ordained the
  • speaker
    first gay priest,
  • speaker
    if you will, to be ordained a
  • speaker
    bishop, an Episcopalian Church,
  • speaker
    which was another flashpoint.
  • speaker
    And so you had a religious authority
  • speaker
    who said, yes, I'm gay and Christian
  • speaker
    and I have a partner.
  • speaker
    And so there were all these moments
  • speaker
    swirling around the Presbyterian
  • speaker
    Church that that helped
  • speaker
    the church find its way.
  • speaker
    And certainly the Episcopalian
  • speaker
    Church and the Lutheran Church
  • speaker
    and the United Church of Christ.
  • speaker
    All, you know,
  • speaker
    having policy changes and
  • speaker
    being more open,
  • speaker
    you know, made a huge difference.
  • speaker
    And of course, the Unitarian Church
  • speaker
    was
  • speaker
    never against, you know, anything
  • speaker
    really, except war.
  • speaker
    I think they're against war for a
  • speaker
    long time.
  • speaker
    But, you know, so there were there
  • speaker
    were traditions out there
  • speaker
    ahead of us
  • speaker
    pulling us into the future.
  • speaker
    In your position at More Light, did
  • speaker
    you work with other faith
  • speaker
    traditions?
  • speaker
    Great question, yes.
  • speaker
    And so when when I
  • speaker
    started in '99
  • speaker
    and I found that Methodist resource
  • speaker
    Claiming the Promise, I
  • speaker
    uncovered a handful of
  • speaker
    people that would
  • speaker
    meet and they were directors of
  • speaker
    denominational programs working from
  • speaker
    change within.
  • speaker
    And
  • speaker
    in the convener of that group was
  • speaker
    Ann B. Day, who was the
  • speaker
    founder of the Open and Affirming
  • speaker
    Program in the United Church of
  • speaker
    Christ.
  • speaker
    And so a handful of us and we met
  • speaker
    in Chicago and
  • speaker
    in Chicago, was where two or three
  • speaker
    of them lived.
  • speaker
    And and of course, we always met
  • speaker
    in January because hotels were
  • speaker
    cheaper. So it was like freezing
  • speaker
    cold
  • speaker
    January in Chicago is not fun.
  • speaker
    No I'm going to go in the summer or
  • speaker
    in September.
  • speaker
    And but we met and
  • speaker
    it was for two
  • speaker
    purposes one for us
  • speaker
    to kind of be in a circle
  • speaker
    of people who did similar jobs and
  • speaker
    to share best practices, but
  • speaker
    also to not feel
  • speaker
    so isolated.
  • speaker
    And because
  • speaker
    as I mentioned, each group was in a
  • speaker
    different place, some further along,
  • speaker
    some not yet.
  • speaker
    We could encourage each other and we
  • speaker
    could see change over the ridge.
  • speaker
    You know, we could see it.
  • speaker
    And there's nothing like that.
  • speaker
    And then we decided we need
  • speaker
    to create materials that
  • speaker
    all of us can use.
  • speaker
    You know that that could be
  • speaker
    ecumenically
  • speaker
    valuable and not
  • speaker
    so Presbyterian
  • speaker
    or so Lutheran.
  • speaker
    And so
  • speaker
    we did that.
  • speaker
    And then we decided to create what
  • speaker
    would be called the Building
  • speaker
    and Inclusive Church Training.
  • speaker
    And so three of us became
  • speaker
    facilitators, and this
  • speaker
    is what we did ecumenical, which
  • speaker
    which really helped every movement
  • speaker
    so we would find a city
  • speaker
    and a host church and
  • speaker
    then invite
  • speaker
    people from every
  • speaker
    tradition, most
  • speaker
    of them were within the Christian
  • speaker
    context.
  • speaker
    To be clear, a couple of them we did
  • speaker
    were interfaith,
  • speaker
    which is, you know, always
  • speaker
    meaningful but a little more
  • speaker
    challenging.
  • speaker
    And so we did these
  • speaker
    all over the country for years,
  • speaker
    and it really
  • speaker
    helped. And you can imagine so we're
  • speaker
    at a Lutheran church in
  • speaker
    Minneapolis and then 10
  • speaker
    Presbyterians are there and 15
  • speaker
    Methodists and, you know, five,
  • speaker
    you know, from the Brethren Church
  • speaker
    and so forth.
  • speaker
    And we always made sure we had
  • speaker
    trainers from different traditions
  • speaker
    because, you know, our stories and
  • speaker
    voices were pretty particular.
  • speaker
    And and so
  • speaker
    we we developed a curriculum
  • speaker
    and we'd move through it.
  • speaker
    And one of the most
  • speaker
    moving moments we did one
  • speaker
    in Santa Fe where I live,
  • speaker
    and I was so excited.
  • speaker
    We got a Lutheran church to host it
  • speaker
    and a woman drove up from
  • speaker
    Albuquerque.
  • speaker
    And for this weekend
  • speaker
    and we did, we
  • speaker
    started our Bible study about how do
  • speaker
    you address what people call the
  • speaker
    clobber passage or the oppressive
  • speaker
    passages?
  • speaker
    And finally, she raised our hands,
  • speaker
    said, "What's the good news
  • speaker
    in the Bible?
  • speaker
    I'm tired and I'm tired of these old
  • speaker
    mean verses." And
  • speaker
    she said, "Where's the good news?"
  • speaker
    And I looked at my colleague
  • speaker
    Rebecca. I looked at Emily
  • speaker
    and I said, "Oh.
  • speaker
    Something to learn," and so
  • speaker
    we we told her, we said
  • speaker
    "We're going to do our homework
  • speaker
    tonight and we're going to come back
  • speaker
    and we're and we're going to we're
  • speaker
    going to answer your question."
  • speaker
    So then we changed the curriculum
  • speaker
    and we started with
  • speaker
    asking people,
  • speaker
    what if you grew up in a faith
  • speaker
    tradition, if you grew up in church,
  • speaker
    what were Bible verses that meant a
  • speaker
    lot to you that were meaningful
  • speaker
    to you? And
  • speaker
    almost without exception, Psalm,
  • speaker
    139, just
  • speaker
    came forward.
  • speaker
    Obviously, Micah, 6:6-8.
  • speaker
    The great commandment text.
  • speaker
    You know, certain stories.
  • speaker
    But but clearly
  • speaker
    it was Psalm 139.
  • speaker
    You know that we are fearfully and
  • speaker
    wonderfully made and that we were
  • speaker
    knit in our mother's
  • speaker
    womb. And that was sort
  • speaker
    of the golden text
  • speaker
    for so many people
  • speaker
    because they had been
  • speaker
    taught so differently, you know,
  • speaker
    that they were a mistake or an
  • speaker
    abomination.
  • speaker
    And so we did that for a number of
  • speaker
    years. And then we created
  • speaker
    national conferences called Witness
  • speaker
    Our Welcome.
  • speaker
    The first one was in DeKalb,
  • speaker
    Illinois. The second was in
  • speaker
    Philadelphia. So two thousand two
  • speaker
    thousand three, where we
  • speaker
    had a thousand or more people
  • speaker
    from what we called the Welcoming
  • speaker
    Church Movement.
  • speaker
    And so those
  • speaker
    experiences were really powerful
  • speaker
    because people could come
  • speaker
    and go, Wow,
  • speaker
    you know?
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    Yes, you know,
  • speaker
    and we always had a
  • speaker
    display of the Shower of Stoles
  • speaker
    project
  • speaker
    that people could experience and
  • speaker
    visit.
  • speaker
    And another of my organizing
  • speaker
    tools when I would do these weekends
  • speaker
    is that I would always order
  • speaker
    a set of stoles
  • speaker
    and put them up in
  • speaker
    the church hall in a Sunday school
  • speaker
    class somewhere, and people
  • speaker
    just walk through it
  • speaker
    and each stole has its story.
  • speaker
    And it it's so powerful.
  • speaker
    And I told Martha Juillerat at the
  • speaker
    founder of it, I said, Martha,
  • speaker
    "These stoles get people out
  • speaker
    of their heads and into their
  • speaker
    hearts." And
  • speaker
    it also gives them privacy.
  • speaker
    You know, nobody's yakking at
  • speaker
    them, even me,
  • speaker
    and and they can just experience
  • speaker
    the story, each story,
  • speaker
    you know, and
  • speaker
    and so that that became a powerful
  • speaker
    part of change
  • speaker
    in the movement was the Shower of
  • speaker
    Stoles struggles project, I think.
  • speaker
    Absolutely.
  • speaker
    We would not have seen the change in
  • speaker
    any of our traditions
  • speaker
    without the Shower of Stoles
  • speaker
    Project.
  • speaker
    Yeah, it was I was going to ask if
  • speaker
    you also worked with other advocacy
  • speaker
    groups like what your
  • speaker
    relationship was with That All May
  • speaker
    Freely Serve or the Covenant
  • speaker
    Network.
  • speaker
    Uh-Huh. Sure, sure.
  • speaker
    So, you know,
  • speaker
    More Light Presbyterians
  • speaker
    being the oldest,
  • speaker
    being the first,
  • speaker
    you know, had some
  • speaker
    responsibility
  • speaker
    to keep the early stories
  • speaker
    alive
  • speaker
    and to keep
  • speaker
    the focus on congregational
  • speaker
    change, you know, congregation
  • speaker
    by congregation by congregation.
  • speaker
    And I felt a real strong
  • speaker
    commitment.
  • speaker
    Because regardless of what happens
  • speaker
    with a General Assembly policy,
  • speaker
    what happens on the ground.
  • speaker
    You know, for folks and
  • speaker
    so for me, it was always
  • speaker
    a both and it's advocacy
  • speaker
    of the General Assembly.
  • speaker
    It's working for policy change, it's
  • speaker
    the changing of hearts and minds.
  • speaker
    You know, it's it's being with the
  • speaker
    grandmothers of Presbyterian Women
  • speaker
    and and it's working in a local
  • speaker
    congregation.
  • speaker
    And I think I'm somewhat unique in
  • speaker
    that.
  • speaker
    Because I was loved back to faith
  • speaker
    by a congregation
  • speaker
    and so so the context
  • speaker
    of love and acceptance and
  • speaker
    reconciliation and
  • speaker
    inspiration came from a
  • speaker
    congregation.
  • speaker
    You know, I wasn't a person in
  • speaker
    seminary that that,
  • speaker
    you know, wanted to follow my call
  • speaker
    I'm going to be a minister no
  • speaker
    matter what.
  • speaker
    I wasn't an already ordained
  • speaker
    minister who was LGBTQ
  • speaker
    or non-binary because certainly
  • speaker
    people were back then before policy
  • speaker
    change, but
  • speaker
    not able to be public,
  • speaker
    you know?
  • speaker
    And so I'm really grateful for
  • speaker
    That All May Freely Serve and Janie
  • speaker
    Spahr, because that was really
  • speaker
    an inspiration, a person
  • speaker
    and about personal ministry
  • speaker
    and pastoral ministry.
  • speaker
    And and then
  • speaker
    the Shower of Stoles.
  • speaker
    We worked closely, a
  • speaker
    pure educational tool.
  • speaker
    Covenant Network come along
  • speaker
    really to work with the churches
  • speaker
    that
  • speaker
    were larger,
  • speaker
    mostly who
  • speaker
    had a disparate kind
  • speaker
    of congregation,
  • speaker
    often congregations with means
  • speaker
    and wealth
  • speaker
    and really wealthy people that
  • speaker
    didn't want change.
  • speaker
    Some did, but most didn't.
  • speaker
    No matter what it was and
  • speaker
    you know, we want to keep it the
  • speaker
    status quo.
  • speaker
    And so the Covenant Network could,
  • speaker
    could, could really work with
  • speaker
    those kinds of churches.
  • speaker
    I would I would meet with some
  • speaker
    pastors who would say to me,
  • speaker
    "Well, you know, Michael, I'm with
  • speaker
    you personally, but I can't be with
  • speaker
    you publicly."
  • speaker
    I was startled the first time
  • speaker
    I heard that because I thought,
  • speaker
    well, that doesn't have integrity.
  • speaker
    You know, how do you live with
  • speaker
    yourself, you know?
  • speaker
    You know, and I also know
  • speaker
    the constraints of working in
  • speaker
    congregations with mixed
  • speaker
    parishioners, you know, and
  • speaker
    a wide range.
  • speaker
    You know, it's it's a challenge.
  • speaker
    And so you develop your message
  • speaker
    and you develop your materials and
  • speaker
    you develop your tactics for change
  • speaker
    and in a more slow
  • speaker
    moderate place,
  • speaker
    you know, and so when I look at
  • speaker
    the movement, look
  • speaker
    back, what I see is every
  • speaker
    group had its own
  • speaker
    niche, its own value.
  • speaker
    And and when
  • speaker
    there were tensions
  • speaker
    sometimes around fundraising
  • speaker
    because people would get a letter
  • speaker
    from More Light Presbyterians, from
  • speaker
    Covenant Network, from the Shower of
  • speaker
    Stoles and That All May Freely Serve
  • speaker
    to get money.
  • speaker
    And I would have people say to me,
  • speaker
    Oh, Michael, I'd like to give you
  • speaker
    money, but I just gave to whatever.
  • speaker
    And no matter if people are good
  • speaker
    hearted, you know,
  • speaker
    I didn't want us dividing people
  • speaker
    up. You know, it just it felt
  • speaker
    divisive to me, people.
  • speaker
    You know, we're trying to be loyal
  • speaker
    to everyone. And you know, we had
  • speaker
    people, you know, we had people on
  • speaker
    mixed, on fixed incomes,
  • speaker
    you know, who were who were
  • speaker
    stressing over this getting four
  • speaker
    or five fundraising letters.
  • speaker
    So I I thought,
  • speaker
    well.
  • speaker
    I asked Janie Spahr, That All May
  • speaker
    Freely Serve, Martha
  • speaker
    Juillerat of the Shower of Stoles, I
  • speaker
    said, Why don't we do some work
  • speaker
    together?
  • speaker
    And I gave us the nickname of three
  • speaker
    sisters
  • speaker
    I've seen a button that has that.
  • speaker
    Yep, yep. And I called us the three
  • speaker
    sisters, and I'm
  • speaker
    OK. Yeah, I'm OK with that.
  • speaker
    You know, that's fine.
  • speaker
    And it's a badge of valor for
  • speaker
    me. And so,
  • speaker
    you know, I call us the three
  • speaker
    sisters. And then we began
  • speaker
    organizing multi-state
  • speaker
    trips.
  • speaker
    And Martha had a nice big van.
  • speaker
    Janie, I would fly wherever Martha
  • speaker
    was.
  • speaker
    And then we would travel together
  • speaker
    and we would do church services
  • speaker
    together, and we would do education
  • speaker
    together.
  • speaker
    And it created a model
  • speaker
    that later would be responsible
  • speaker
    for change at the General Assembly
  • speaker
    because it would take everybody
  • speaker
    working together to get
  • speaker
    those votes, to get those changes
  • speaker
    and then to live into them, as
  • speaker
    you know.
  • speaker
    And but those three sisters tours
  • speaker
    and they were a blast.
  • speaker
    We had more fun and we
  • speaker
    we loved each other and we
  • speaker
    respected each other.
  • speaker
    And, you know, we did them across
  • speaker
    the south.
  • speaker
    We did them in the northwest.
  • speaker
    We did them in the Midwest.
  • speaker
    We did them in places that needed
  • speaker
    to hear.
  • speaker
    And many times we would
  • speaker
    be told that we were the first
  • speaker
    LGBT Christians that they'd ever
  • speaker
    met the first LGBT Presbyterians
  • speaker
    and ever met.
  • speaker
    And and by
  • speaker
    the end of it, Martha said, "Well,
  • speaker
    I can tell your story and I can tell
  • speaker
    Janie's story."
  • speaker
    And you know, and
  • speaker
    but we I loved it and you
  • speaker
    know, it created a friendship
  • speaker
    and a bond among us.
  • speaker
    We were already tight.
  • speaker
    But the
  • speaker
    the differences between our
  • speaker
    tactics, if you will,
  • speaker
    or organize organizational
  • speaker
    footprint disappeared
  • speaker
    because of that.
  • speaker
    And and
  • speaker
    and then it was about bridge
  • speaker
    building and working with Covenant
  • speaker
    Network to say,
  • speaker
    you know, we've got this
  • speaker
    opportunity.
  • speaker
    We're getting close.
  • speaker
    How do we work together at a General
  • speaker
    Assembly or in education?
  • speaker
    And I wrote grants very
  • speaker
    significant grants as the as
  • speaker
    the executive director for More
  • speaker
    Light to hire people
  • speaker
    on for the last two campaigns
  • speaker
    that were successful for
  • speaker
    ordination policy
  • speaker
    and the first one
  • speaker
    to to achieve the win
  • speaker
    and the ratification at
  • speaker
    the General Assembly and then the
  • speaker
    ratification by Presbytery votes,
  • speaker
    but the second to fight the battle
  • speaker
    backlash.
  • speaker
    Okay. You know, the repeal effort.
  • speaker
    And so so
  • speaker
    we hired outside
  • speaker
    folks from
  • speaker
    the the Welcoming Church Movement
  • speaker
    to to be our
  • speaker
    our national they
  • speaker
    that, you know, get it Presbytery
  • speaker
    list and make calls
  • speaker
    and talk with folks and answer
  • speaker
    their questions and
  • speaker
    Covenant Network.
  • speaker
    I loved working with Tricia Dykers
  • speaker
    Koenig, who is one
  • speaker
    of the best, smartest
  • speaker
    organizers, you know,
  • speaker
    polity expert.
  • speaker
    And you can't you're not going to
  • speaker
    have change in the Christian Church
  • speaker
    if you don't understand its polity.
  • speaker
    And how to leverage its best,
  • speaker
    and Trisha also had
  • speaker
    a Rolodex of
  • speaker
    she'd gone to Duke
  • speaker
    and McCormick,
  • speaker
    so.
  • speaker
    So, you know, Tricia had this these
  • speaker
    two amazing networks
  • speaker
    that she could call upon and
  • speaker
    and Trisha is no nonsense.
  • speaker
    I mean, she's one two three four.
  • speaker
    And for me, having a dad was an
  • speaker
    engineer and it's one two three
  • speaker
    four.
  • speaker
    You know, it was like, you know,
  • speaker
    Tricia was like, "Yes, you're
  • speaker
    singing in my song." You know, we
  • speaker
    can't just pray, you
  • speaker
    know? I mean, we do need to pray,
  • speaker
    but it can't just be prayer.
  • speaker
    And
  • speaker
    and so you know
  • speaker
    what I loved about that,
  • speaker
    those campaigns for ordination
  • speaker
    policy, it set the stage
  • speaker
    for you unified work toward
  • speaker
    marriage and marriage
  • speaker
    policy change.
  • speaker
    And that would not have happened.
  • speaker
    And I'm clear on this.
  • speaker
    If we had not found a way
  • speaker
    for collegiality, for kinship,
  • speaker
    for for appreciation
  • speaker
    of each other's strengths and
  • speaker
    differences along the
  • speaker
    way, and then for ordination,
  • speaker
    because in some ways, marriage
  • speaker
    was harder and,
  • speaker
    you know, closer to people,
  • speaker
    you know and and
  • speaker
    you know.
  • speaker
    More visceral, it was more visceral
  • speaker
    because, you know, it's now about my
  • speaker
    marriage, you know, and
  • speaker
    it really isn't about your marriage,
  • speaker
    but it's about marriage equality.
  • speaker
    And if you really believed in
  • speaker
    marriage, you'd want everybody to
  • speaker
    have it.
  • speaker
    And but I,
  • speaker
    you know, I look back now.
  • speaker
    I wish I was as smart in the moment,
  • speaker
    Liz, or as
  • speaker
    wise or as
  • speaker
    knowledgeable. But but I look
  • speaker
    back in hindsight and I can
  • speaker
    see these things clearly, these
  • speaker
    guideposts and moments.
  • speaker
    And and it
  • speaker
    really did set the stage.
  • speaker
    And you know, and
  • speaker
    you know it, it helps now
  • speaker
    because, you know,
  • speaker
    now the question is policy to
  • speaker
    practice.
  • speaker
    You've got the barrier has gone
  • speaker
    to qualified queer folks
  • speaker
    serving in the church.
  • speaker
    But you know, and are they
  • speaker
    getting calls?
  • speaker
    And I see the parallel
  • speaker
    history and that's one benefit.
  • speaker
    I'm 66, so
  • speaker
    this is not my first rodeo.
  • speaker
    I've been around the church for a
  • speaker
    long time
  • speaker
    and and I remember women.
  • speaker
    And people saying, "Oh, I'd never
  • speaker
    have a woman pastor." I mean,
  • speaker
    they even said that to me
  • speaker
    in conservative places, doing my
  • speaker
    More Light work.
  • speaker
    You know, and and I would just
  • speaker
    say, "Well, why not?"
  • speaker
    You know, and I and
  • speaker
    Bear Ride told me once
  • speaker
    that that when I go into village
  • speaker
    idiot, that that's a really helpful
  • speaker
    skill.
  • speaker
    You know it just go, "Well, why
  • speaker
    not?" And
  • speaker
    or I would say, you know, "I'm
  • speaker
    puzzled.
  • speaker
    Please explain that to me."
  • speaker
    And you know, and
  • speaker
    you know, so I, you know, I
  • speaker
    look back and I think
  • speaker
    the current equality movement
  • speaker
    Covenant Network, More Light
  • speaker
    Presbyterians, the others,
  • speaker
    congregations working for change,
  • speaker
    people working for change.
  • speaker
    We could learn a lot
  • speaker
    from the early history
  • speaker
    of women and
  • speaker
    battling patriarchy and sexism
  • speaker
    and misogyny.
  • speaker
    And I was schooled
  • speaker
    early on that,
  • speaker
    you know, underneath homophobia
  • speaker
    is sexism is misogyny.
  • speaker
    And that was a really helpful
  • speaker
    insight for me.
  • speaker
    That isn't just I'm against gay
  • speaker
    or same sex sex.
  • speaker
    It's more
  • speaker
    and and these things,
  • speaker
    you know, coexist.
  • speaker
    And I would say now, I'm so
  • speaker
    grateful.
  • speaker
    For the concept of
  • speaker
    intersectionality, you
  • speaker
    know that we can address racism
  • speaker
    and issues of class and income
  • speaker
    inequality and climate
  • speaker
    with transphobia and everything.
  • speaker
    You know, this is all we
  • speaker
    do this and we show
  • speaker
    up for each other. And you know, I
  • speaker
    just went wild with the women's
  • speaker
    marches in 2016
  • speaker
    and went to several.
  • speaker
    And you know, and
  • speaker
    I just I was fascinated
  • speaker
    and inspired and blown away
  • speaker
    by all the people showing up.
  • speaker
    You know you.
  • speaker
    I'm sure you were part of some, too.
  • speaker
    And it was it was remarkable.
  • speaker
    Just remarkable.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    And I think that's
  • speaker
    that's where the movement's heading.
  • speaker
    You know, we're not there yet,
  • speaker
    you know,
  • speaker
    fully.
  • speaker
    And I think one because
  • speaker
    how do we deal with with
  • speaker
    anti-racist church and society,
  • speaker
    a white supremist church and
  • speaker
    society? We're not there yet.
  • speaker
    We're sort of like, Ooh, ooh and
  • speaker
    um or the
  • speaker
    transphobia or the people
  • speaker
    who just shut down when someone says
  • speaker
    I'm non-binary, just shut down.
  • speaker
    And, you know, so we've got this
  • speaker
    work.
  • speaker
    You know, it's a both and again, you
  • speaker
    know, we do this and
  • speaker
    this.
  • speaker
    And you know,
  • speaker
    and I remember one General Assembly
  • speaker
    Liz, years ago
  • speaker
    as the More Light and people knew
  • speaker
    me, I was the More Light guy, you
  • speaker
    know, and I'm 6'1" and I'm 200
  • speaker
    pounds, you know, so I can't
  • speaker
    I can't shrink into a room,
  • speaker
    you know? I mean, people just like,
  • speaker
    Oh, there he is again.
  • speaker
    And but, you know,
  • speaker
    so so the first
  • speaker
    there was a Taco Bell boycott
  • speaker
    because of the Immokalee farmers,
  • speaker
    right?
  • speaker
    And so I went to that thing
  • speaker
    and I learned and I got a button
  • speaker
    and I wore the, you know, boycott
  • speaker
    Taco Bell and
  • speaker
    I and I spoke to that committee,
  • speaker
    you know, and someone came to me
  • speaker
    afterwards said, "Why did you speak
  • speaker
    to that committee? You're the More
  • speaker
    Light guy." I said, "I
  • speaker
    don't only care about things that
  • speaker
    affect me.
  • speaker
    What kind of Christian would I be?
  • speaker
    What kind of human being?
  • speaker
    What kind of Presbyterian?"
  • speaker
    I said, "Of course I care."
  • speaker
    And that was really interesting
  • speaker
    to me that
  • speaker
    I had been cataloged in a certain
  • speaker
    way. And I think the movement
  • speaker
    early on had been cataloged,
  • speaker
    and I don't think that's who we were
  • speaker
    in our hearts.
  • speaker
    But I think it was necessary.
  • speaker
    You know, there was so much that had
  • speaker
    to be done and nobody else was doing
  • speaker
    it. You know, now
  • speaker
    we have an office
  • speaker
    that includes someone who works
  • speaker
    on LGBTQ,
  • speaker
    you know, inclusion
  • speaker
    and acceptance and policy,
  • speaker
    you know, work and you
  • speaker
    know, and so, you know, wow,
  • speaker
    you know, that's you know,
  • speaker
    and it's done in the context of
  • speaker
    women and racism.
  • speaker
    You know, in the racial ethnic
  • speaker
    women's office, you know, it's it's
  • speaker
    all there together.
  • speaker
    And so I look
  • speaker
    at that and I go, Wow, you know,
  • speaker
    that's, you know, I wouldn't want
  • speaker
    just a gay office,
  • speaker
    you know, I'd want a fun
  • speaker
    office, to be clear.
  • speaker
    But I I think,
  • speaker
    no, we we we cannot do
  • speaker
    that again. We cannot go back to
  • speaker
    silos.
  • speaker
    Has to be intersectional.
  • speaker
    Yes. Yes, absolutely.
  • speaker
    Well, tell me I will ask just a
  • speaker
    little bit about your decision to
  • speaker
    leave More Light or leave your
  • speaker
    position as executive director.
  • speaker
    Were you still executive director
  • speaker
    when marriage was passed or had
  • speaker
    you already stepped down before
  • speaker
    then?
  • speaker
    So the first
  • speaker
    overtures were were
  • speaker
    in place.
  • speaker
    Okay.
  • speaker
    And the first the sort
  • speaker
    of first round while and
  • speaker
    we were setting the stage, you know,
  • speaker
    for the policy change
  • speaker
    that would happen and it happened
  • speaker
    quicker than I thought it would.
  • speaker
    But of course, the Supreme Court
  • speaker
    decision.
  • speaker
    Yeah, yeah.
  • speaker
    So, you know, those two decisions
  • speaker
    pushed that.
  • speaker
    Toward the end of my time with More
  • speaker
    Light, two
  • speaker
    things happened.
  • speaker
    One was I
  • speaker
    really felt like the equality
  • speaker
    movement in the Presbyterian
  • speaker
    Church and within More Light.
  • speaker
    We had sort of the first
  • speaker
    era
  • speaker
    and, you know, of of
  • speaker
    David Sindt and Rosemary
  • speaker
    Wallace and Sandy Brawders and all
  • speaker
    those allies, you know, kind of
  • speaker
    breaking the ice.
  • speaker
    And then we had the
  • speaker
    very clear movement
  • speaker
    of solidarity toward ordination
  • speaker
    policy change, and that happened.
  • speaker
    And I really felt like the
  • speaker
    movement deserved
  • speaker
    and needed a different voice.
  • speaker
    I've been at it a long time
  • speaker
    and and frankly, I was kind of
  • speaker
    getting tired of my own voice.
  • speaker
    You know, I'm sort of like, No, we
  • speaker
    need a new voice and we
  • speaker
    need a different voice and we need
  • speaker
    someone with a different life
  • speaker
    experience. I think
  • speaker
    because I had grown up in the
  • speaker
    Presbyterian Church and loved so
  • speaker
    well as a kid because
  • speaker
    I had been loved back to faith by
  • speaker
    a welcoming, affirming congregation.
  • speaker
    That story was critical,
  • speaker
    but I think I really did.
  • speaker
    And I think I was right about this.
  • speaker
    The thing stirring up in me, in my
  • speaker
    conscience and my heart
  • speaker
    and my brain was, you
  • speaker
    know, a new voice is needed.
  • speaker
    You know, I've done what what
  • speaker
    I was called to do.
  • speaker
    At the same time,
  • speaker
    I.
  • speaker
    The last couple of years with MLP,
  • speaker
    I began, I knew.
  • speaker
    Ordination policy change was going
  • speaker
    to happen. I mean, we just saw the
  • speaker
    numbers we knew.
  • speaker
    And so I contacted the mission
  • speaker
    division in Louisville,
  • speaker
    and I said to them, I said,
  • speaker
    "I've been looking at the maps.
  • speaker
    You know, they're Presbyterians in
  • speaker
    over 100 countries.
  • speaker
    We have direct mission relationships
  • speaker
    of about 50 countries.
  • speaker
    So ordination policy
  • speaker
    is going to happen."
  • speaker
    And I felt like we had
  • speaker
    a responsibility as the Presbyterian
  • speaker
    Church to give a clear
  • speaker
    witness
  • speaker
    that LGBT people were not
  • speaker
    a mistake were not an abomination.
  • speaker
    That even if you've been taught
  • speaker
    this, that's really not true
  • speaker
    and that God creates
  • speaker
    and loves all.
  • speaker
    And so it's more than ordination,
  • speaker
    you know, it's more than ordination.
  • speaker
    And the sin question
  • speaker
    would be dominant
  • speaker
    for a lot of these folks are, you
  • speaker
    know, in the U.S.
  • speaker
    and around the world, you know, what
  • speaker
    will the the Presbyterian Church
  • speaker
    of Ghana?
  • speaker
    What will the Presbyterian Church of
  • speaker
    Mexico? What will they say?
  • speaker
    How will they respond? And
  • speaker
    Hunter Farrell was the director
  • speaker
    at the time and just a brilliant,
  • speaker
    thoughtful
  • speaker
    faith leader.
  • speaker
    And he took me.
  • speaker
    He said," Yeah, you're right,
  • speaker
    Michael. We've got to prepare."
  • speaker
    And then I started working with
  • speaker
    in my education with churches,
  • speaker
    you know?
  • speaker
    And when I there are 80 countries
  • speaker
    where it's
  • speaker
    where homosexuality or same sex sex
  • speaker
    or relationships are criminalized at
  • speaker
    10, 10 with the death penalty.
  • speaker
    You know, so what we do has global
  • speaker
    impact. So I began to look beyond
  • speaker
    the Presbyterian Church (USA)
  • speaker
    that we had a responsibility for
  • speaker
    what we taught and
  • speaker
    what we said and how we
  • speaker
    responded.
  • speaker
    But we also had a responsibility
  • speaker
    because what what I would call
  • speaker
    religious colonization.
  • speaker
    And so, you
  • speaker
    know, we have some, some work to do.
  • speaker
    And so I felt very committed to that
  • speaker
    international arena, the global
  • speaker
    arena
  • speaker
    and.
  • speaker
    And it and at
  • speaker
    the end of 2011, I was approached
  • speaker
    by a philanthropist activist
  • speaker
    who heard me speak and read some
  • speaker
    of the things that I put online
  • speaker
    and said, "Michael, would you take
  • speaker
    what you've learned?
  • speaker
    With More Light Presbyterians, work
  • speaker
    in the Presbyterian Church and
  • speaker
    ecumenically and do that
  • speaker
    globally?"
  • speaker
    And so this amazing opportunity,
  • speaker
    so these two things, Liz,
  • speaker
    I'm really sensing the equality
  • speaker
    movement needs a different voice and
  • speaker
    a different life experience and
  • speaker
    a different vocabulary.
  • speaker
    And and second, I really
  • speaker
    felt a call
  • speaker
    to go to the global arena
  • speaker
    and do what this philanthropist
  • speaker
    activist said.
  • speaker
    And I told that person
  • speaker
    I'd love to do that, but I
  • speaker
    can't do it until after the
  • speaker
    General Assembly of 2012
  • speaker
    because there will be a backlash
  • speaker
    of a repeal and
  • speaker
    I cannot leave
  • speaker
    the equality movement and More Light
  • speaker
    Presbyterians.
  • speaker
    You know, I just can't
  • speaker
    I can't in good conscience do that
  • speaker
    as much as I was excited about
  • speaker
    it and this person said, "It's
  • speaker
    OK, we'll wait a year."
  • speaker
    Oh, my goodness.
  • speaker
    And which was tremendous.
  • speaker
    And so what that allowed
  • speaker
    was for More Light Presbyterians,
  • speaker
    I did give them notice.
  • speaker
    I I sat on the information
  • speaker
    for a long time
  • speaker
    because I thought, how do I say this
  • speaker
    to a group that I love
  • speaker
    and to work I have loved.
  • speaker
    How do I say it?
  • speaker
    And then and then second.
  • speaker
    It would be their decision, whether
  • speaker
    I would stay or not.
  • speaker
    True.
  • speaker
    Through through the General
  • speaker
    Assembly, they were very grateful
  • speaker
    that I was willing to stay.
  • speaker
    You know, I knew how to set up the
  • speaker
    booth. I knew how to do this.
  • speaker
    I knew how to do that, you know,
  • speaker
    and there were other people could do
  • speaker
    wonderful things, but there were
  • speaker
    certain things that I just did every
  • speaker
    assembly,
  • speaker
    you know? And so
  • speaker
    once once you know, we fought
  • speaker
    back that that repeal initiative,
  • speaker
    I was so excited that
  • speaker
    Patrick Evans, who was a board
  • speaker
    member at the time, was
  • speaker
    interested in serving as an interim.
  • speaker
    And it was really helpful for More
  • speaker
    Light to have an interim because I'd
  • speaker
    had a long tenure, you know,
  • speaker
    nine years as a volunteer, 12
  • speaker
    on staff, that's a long time.
  • speaker
    And so Patrick
  • speaker
    just did a beautiful job for
  • speaker
    a year, you know,
  • speaker
    continuing the work and
  • speaker
    bringing his own creative self
  • speaker
    to it, which really
  • speaker
    paved the way, I believe,
  • speaker
    for Alex
  • speaker
    McNeill to be called as
  • speaker
    what historically was the first
  • speaker
    transgender person
  • speaker
    to direct a denominational
  • speaker
    program, you
  • speaker
    know, and so it was like, Yes,
  • speaker
    you know, I didn't know that would
  • speaker
    be the result.
  • speaker
    But but, you know, honestly, it took
  • speaker
    my stepping away.
  • speaker
    The board didn't want me to go.
  • speaker
    You know, they knew we still had
  • speaker
    work to do on marriage and other
  • speaker
    things.
  • speaker
    But they also heard my call,
  • speaker
    you know, to step in this new arena,
  • speaker
    and they weren't surprised by it
  • speaker
    because they had seen my education
  • speaker
    about the global arena.
  • speaker
    And so, you know,
  • speaker
    again, it was sort of not exactly
  • speaker
    starting by scratch, you
  • speaker
    know? But in 2012, it's like,
  • speaker
    OK, I'm taking on the world.
  • speaker
    You know, it was the big old
  • speaker
    Presbyterian Church.
  • speaker
    Yeah, yeah.
  • speaker
    And I'm going for the world.
  • speaker
    Now the irony is
  • speaker
    and the synchronicity.
  • speaker
    And some people would say providence
  • speaker
    is that that when
  • speaker
    I met with the foundation that would
  • speaker
    hold the fund.
  • speaker
    I said, "You know, I'm I'm
  • speaker
    grateful for this opportunity.
  • speaker
    I will do things to the U.N.
  • speaker
    and at the State Department.
  • speaker
    You know that that will be,
  • speaker
    you know, faith based and faith
  • speaker
    rooted.
  • speaker
    But the world's a big place."
  • speaker
    And when I look at the world and
  • speaker
    do an analysis, the
  • speaker
    majority of the countries where
  • speaker
    it's illegal to be gay, where
  • speaker
    criminalization and persecution
  • speaker
    exist are
  • speaker
    are in Africa.
  • speaker
    And that's a place I have some
  • speaker
    knowledge of, and I lived there for
  • speaker
    two years.
  • speaker
    And so I have some
  • speaker
    appreciation,
  • speaker
    other cultures and context
  • speaker
    like I don't I'm not as versed
  • speaker
    in Asia, to be honest.
  • speaker
    So, so two things really
  • speaker
    compelled me to say,
  • speaker
    yes, I'm taking on the world,
  • speaker
    but can I begin the work
  • speaker
    on the continent, which of course,
  • speaker
    is 50 countries?
  • speaker
    I mean, you know, it's a big place
  • speaker
    and as you know.
  • speaker
    But they agreed to that.
  • speaker
    And
  • speaker
    and then I proceeded
  • speaker
    with with again learning
  • speaker
    and growing and like, who's doing
  • speaker
    the work?
  • speaker
    And again, accompaniment became
  • speaker
    my key guide.
  • speaker
    Who are the African faith leaders
  • speaker
    and who are the African LGBTI
  • speaker
    because that because that's the the
  • speaker
    language used most in Africa LGBTI
  • speaker
    for intersex.
  • speaker
    And who who are the activists doing
  • speaker
    the work? And how can I support
  • speaker
    them?
  • speaker
    And how can I be a part
  • speaker
    of amplifying their voices?
  • speaker
    And so it
  • speaker
    it was a terrific opportunity
  • speaker
    that just sort of boomed.
  • speaker
    And it's kind of like More Light
  • speaker
    just kind of boom, you know,
  • speaker
    you know, boom.
  • speaker
    And so you know this one,
  • speaker
    you know?
  • speaker
    And because I hate interviewing,
  • speaker
    you know, I'm sort of like, I'm
  • speaker
    good, I work hard.
  • speaker
    I I practice
  • speaker
    good hygiene.
  • speaker
    I've got a, you know, good
  • speaker
    experience. Just hire me.
  • speaker
    I hate interview.
  • speaker
    And so I'm really grateful
  • speaker
    that, well, I did interview,
  • speaker
    certainly for the More Light
  • speaker
    position.
  • speaker
    I was recruited for this last one
  • speaker
    and I love what I do, but I
  • speaker
    don't forget where
  • speaker
    I came from, and
  • speaker
    I don't forget those early lessons
  • speaker
    from from the More Light Church
  • speaker
    work because in
  • speaker
    many of the context, I'm doing a
  • speaker
    special project
  • speaker
    in East Africa now
  • speaker
    Rwanda, Kenya, the Democratic
  • speaker
    Republic of Congo
  • speaker
    and Rwanda and and
  • speaker
    part of it is just telling the
  • speaker
    stories.
  • speaker
    And helping, you know, the
  • speaker
    Africans, and of course, they're
  • speaker
    beautiful storytellers, they don't
  • speaker
    need help but how to navigate
  • speaker
    safety.
  • speaker
    You know, when, when you know, and
  • speaker
    how to work with the media and
  • speaker
    how to do fundraising and how to
  • speaker
    seek funding from a global north
  • speaker
    funder. I mean, it's hard enough for
  • speaker
    me as a global north guy,
  • speaker
    you know, to figure out a funder
  • speaker
    and ride a grant.
  • speaker
    But you know, these are folks that
  • speaker
    that that, you know, have not
  • speaker
    had that experience.
  • speaker
    They've had other wonderful
  • speaker
    experiences.
  • speaker
    And so I'm doing strategic
  • speaker
    philanthropy development
  • speaker
    for activists in those four
  • speaker
    countries and just having a great
  • speaker
    time
  • speaker
    because they know who they are and
  • speaker
    what they what, what their vision
  • speaker
    is. I just want to help stand
  • speaker
    with them and
  • speaker
    just say, you're doing a great job,
  • speaker
    you know, and people need to hear
  • speaker
    that,
  • speaker
    you know, and that change can
  • speaker
    happen, you know?
  • speaker
    And in a way, I can share
  • speaker
    the short version, of
  • speaker
    course, of the Presbyterian
  • speaker
    Church with them.
  • speaker
    When they think about working within
  • speaker
    their tradition, working
  • speaker
    for change, I can say, you know,
  • speaker
    I didn't know it would happen, but I
  • speaker
    still kept at it.
  • speaker
    Around twenty two years.
  • speaker
    Right, right.
  • speaker
    And so I'm the grandfather.
  • speaker
    And then in the
  • speaker
    in the global movement, clearly
  • speaker
    and and well, I wish
  • speaker
    I was the grandmother.
  • speaker
    I could put some pearls on, I do
  • speaker
    wear the tennis shoes, but.
  • speaker
    But it is interesting, as you know,
  • speaker
    your questions and
  • speaker
    and your responses are so thoughtful
  • speaker
    Liz, you've helped me just
  • speaker
    sort of reflect very meaningfully
  • speaker
    about all of this.
  • speaker
    And it and it.
  • speaker
    And it does feel like a seamless
  • speaker
    garment.
  • speaker
    You know, this thread and
  • speaker
    this thread in this thread, in this
  • speaker
    thread, in this thread, in this
  • speaker
    thread.
  • speaker
    And and it doesn't
  • speaker
    feel like an accident.
  • speaker
    It doesn't feel like a coincidence.
  • speaker
    And it, it feels,
  • speaker
    inspires me just to be even more
  • speaker
    grateful.
  • speaker
    And inspires me as well, it's
  • speaker
    just been incredible to hear
  • speaker
    all of your stories and your
  • speaker
    journey.
  • speaker
    Just I'm getting a little emotional,
  • speaker
    just thinking about it.
  • speaker
    Thank you so much for sharing.
  • speaker
    Oh, you're welcome.
  • speaker
    You're more than welcome.
  • speaker
    And if any other questions you
  • speaker
    know, surface, you know, be happy
  • speaker
    to reach back.
  • speaker
    I've obviously given you more
  • speaker
    content than you ever wanted, but.
  • speaker
    This is fantastic, no thank you so much.
  • speaker
    Oh, you're more than welcome.
  • speaker
    I've loved the opportunity and
  • speaker
    and I'm so tickled by the
  • speaker
    the interest, you know?
  • speaker
    And I remember the Pam Byers
  • speaker
    Collection being put together
  • speaker
    and named after her.
  • speaker
    And of course, you know,
  • speaker
    I was already in place with More
  • speaker
    Light when Covenant Network was
  • speaker
    started.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    And so I met Pam early
  • speaker
    on, you know, always thoughtful,
  • speaker
    always generous.
  • speaker
    Tricia Dykers Koenig in
  • speaker
    the small world category had been
  • speaker
    on the More Light board that hired
  • speaker
    me.
  • speaker
    Oh, really OK?
  • speaker
    Yeah, yeah.
  • speaker
    And then you know it
  • speaker
    and then.
  • speaker
    A not too well-known story
  • speaker
    when they were looking for an
  • speaker
    organizer, one of their board
  • speaker
    members asked me
  • speaker
    who I thought and I said, "It's
  • speaker
    Tricia," you need to
  • speaker
    hire Tricia. Tricia doesn't know
  • speaker
    this.
  • speaker
    I don't think I don't think very
  • speaker
    many people know this.
  • speaker
    But but I had so
  • speaker
    watched Tricia's work with More
  • speaker
    Light Presbyterians first
  • speaker
    PLGC. She and her husband
  • speaker
    Mark were part of that
  • speaker
    as great allies.
  • speaker
    And then I saw Tricia's work,
  • speaker
    you know, at general assemblies, and
  • speaker
    I thought, if Covenant Network means
  • speaker
    business, they need Tricia.
  • speaker
    And I also had learned she had
  • speaker
    that. As I mentioned, Duke,
  • speaker
    McCormick. I mean, you know, Tricia
  • speaker
    knows every last.
  • speaker
    Yeah, yeah, yeah.
  • speaker
    Every last person, you know,
  • speaker
    honestly, she knows everybody
  • speaker
    had.
  • speaker
    But you know, and she,
  • speaker
    she and Pam and their team, you
  • speaker
    know, worked very thoughtfully with
  • speaker
    More Light, you know,
  • speaker
    and if any
  • speaker
    of us had pulled out
  • speaker
    and not been in solidarity, it
  • speaker
    wouldn't have happened.
  • speaker
    It would have happened later.
  • speaker
    But you know, what I'm grateful
  • speaker
    for now is Matthew
  • speaker
    Dimming, you know, was
  • speaker
    ordained last year.
  • speaker
    I was I was at the Zoom ordination
  • speaker
    thing.
  • speaker
    He's a chaplain in
  • speaker
    at Presbyterian Langone Hospital, a
  • speaker
    children's chaplain
  • speaker
    and
  • speaker
    a lovely guy who's
  • speaker
    married to one of my human rights
  • speaker
    activist friends, Ryan.
  • speaker
    And so, like, my worlds collide
  • speaker
    because I knew I knew Ryan first
  • speaker
    from Human Rights Watch.
  • speaker
    Oh, OK.
  • speaker
    And then, you know, I found
  • speaker
    out, you know, he is married to
  • speaker
    Matthew and I go, Well,
  • speaker
    I've never met Matthew, but
  • speaker
    I know who he is.
  • speaker
    And I was at his ordination
  • speaker
    by Zoom. And I'm like, Whoa,
  • speaker
    small world.
  • speaker
    And but it's it's interesting
  • speaker
    to me. I look at, you
  • speaker
    know, Matt
  • speaker
    being ordained.
  • speaker
    I look at.
  • speaker
    Alex Irving, I look
  • speaker
    at
  • speaker
    the new pastor, they're not going to
  • speaker
    connect you with Rebecca, the
  • speaker
    non-binary candidate, and
  • speaker
    this is Cincinnati Presbytery, the
  • speaker
    same Presbytery that filed charges
  • speaker
    against me.
  • speaker
    And not too many
  • speaker
    years later.
  • speaker
    They just take Rebecca
  • speaker
    as Rebecca, a
  • speaker
    gifted, bright, thoughtful
  • speaker
    Presbyterian person
  • speaker
    who says I'm non-binary,
  • speaker
    I use they and them.
  • speaker
    I saw a couple of little hmmm,
  • speaker
    but it was a unanimous
  • speaker
    vote.
  • speaker
    I mean, I'm like, Wow,
  • speaker
    you know, now part of that is
  • speaker
    because Rebecca is terrific
  • speaker
    and gifted and thoughtful
  • speaker
    and shares their faith
  • speaker
    stories so beautifully.
  • speaker
    But it's still, there could have
  • speaker
    been opposition.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    And there wasn't.
  • speaker
    And I looked at some of those
  • speaker
    because I joined that on them
  • speaker
    too. I got permission.
  • speaker
    I joined that one and I'm looking
  • speaker
    up going.
  • speaker
    That person filed a charge against
  • speaker
    me. That person spoke against
  • speaker
    me and our, you know, my
  • speaker
    ordination on the floor and
  • speaker
    not, you know, said, you know,
  • speaker
    you know, is that God at work?
  • speaker
    I hope so.
  • speaker
    You know, and I do believe so.
  • speaker
    And I think it's also their
  • speaker
    own journey to learn and be more
  • speaker
    open, you know.
  • speaker
    To change, yeah.
  • speaker
    Yeah, yeah, yeah.
  • speaker
    And so now I'm convicted to think
  • speaker
    about where do I need to change?
  • speaker
    Yeah. So you know, it's still
  • speaker
    going, Liz. Well, thank you so much.
  • speaker
    Thanks for the work you're doing at
  • speaker
    PHS.
  • speaker
    It's so important.
  • speaker
    I can't tell you how important.
  • speaker
    Thank you, yeah. I'm grateful to be
  • speaker
    doing it, so.
  • speaker
    Yeah, that's wonderful.
  • speaker
    That's wonderful.
  • speaker
    So, so my my offer
  • speaker
    is genuine.
  • speaker
    If anything else, or if
  • speaker
    you need a sort of a corrective
  • speaker
    on something for me.
  • speaker
    I will, yeah, and I'll send you an
  • speaker
    oral history release form too.
  • speaker
    OK.
  • speaker
    That you can look over and sign.
  • speaker
    And I can give you a copy of this,
  • speaker
    too, if you want to rewatch anything
  • speaker
    or, yeah.
  • speaker
    OK, no I trust you.
  • speaker
    I'm good.
  • speaker
    Yeah, I would only want to listen to
  • speaker
    you.
  • speaker
    And then as we sign
  • speaker
    off, I'm going to connect
  • speaker
    you with Rebecca and Stacy.
  • speaker
    Oh, yeah, yeah, that would be great.
  • speaker
    And I also don't have Erin Swenson's
  • speaker
    email address.
  • speaker
    That would be great.
  • speaker
    OK, Erin, for sure.
  • speaker
    OK, Stacy
  • speaker
    and Rebecca.
  • speaker
    Yeah, I do know that Stacy is on
  • speaker
    vacation.
  • speaker
    So what I'm going to do is I'm going
  • speaker
    to wait a week, but I will.
  • speaker
    I'm putting a note in my calendar.
  • speaker
    The Presbyterian Mission calendar.
  • speaker
    And but I'll connect you with Erin
  • speaker
    today.
  • speaker
    Great.
  • speaker
    I'll do. I'll do a handoff
  • speaker
    connection.
  • speaker
    OK.
  • speaker
    Is that all right?
  • speaker
    Oh, that'd be perfect.
  • speaker
    Yeah, thank you so much.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    And then I will.
  • speaker
    And then next week, I won't forget.
  • speaker
    I will do Stacy
  • speaker
    and Rebecca because I don't want to
  • speaker
    have something pop up in Stacy's
  • speaker
    email while she's on vacation, you
  • speaker
    know?
  • speaker
    People get so few vacations.
  • speaker
    Yeah, particularly a pastor that's
  • speaker
    been through the pandemic, you know?
  • speaker
    Yeah, yeah.
  • speaker
    Let's give Stacy the week, yeah.
  • speaker
    Yeah, yeah, we'll give her a week.
  • speaker
    So thank you so much.
  • speaker
    Take good care.
  • speaker
    Thank you, Michael. Yeah, have a good
  • speaker
    day.
  • speaker
    Alright, bye.
  • speaker
    Thanks, bye bye.

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