Peter Oddleifson oral history, 2019.

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speaker
This is Elizabeth Wittrig interviewing
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Peter Oddleifson on June
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1st 2019.
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Correct, correct.
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Peter if you want to go ahead and talk about how you became involved in
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the movement for LGBTQ inclusion?
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Well it was very interesting.
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I can't remember the exact
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moment but it was probably in
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the early 1980s
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and I was a member
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of the
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Third Presbyterian Church
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in Rochester
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and I remember the
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morning very very
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distinctly because
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I was sitting up in the in the
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balcony with my family
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and the pastor got
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up and he made an announcement
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that really got my attention.
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He said told us that
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our church Third Presbyterian
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in Rochester had
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been sued by
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a Presbyterian church
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right down the street from us
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also on
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East Avenue
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and we
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had been sued
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in the church courts
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because of the fact that we were I
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think we were in the process of
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ordaining a
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member a session
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member who was gay and
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the name of the other church was the
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Brighton Presbyterian Church
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and they
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were very much hewing
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to the standard line
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at the time that
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it was
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inappropriate to
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ordain
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or marry
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gay and lesbian people.
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And so
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I sat there
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listening to our pastor
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tell us about
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the fact that we'd been sued.
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And I thought to myself what in the
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world is wrong with this picture.
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I thought that a church
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was supposed to be a place
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where people were welcoming and
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were open and
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interested in other people's
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thoughts and ideas
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and never heard of
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a place that was just shutting
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down on a whole
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particular section of humanity.
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It just seemed to be totally
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inconsistent with the
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Christian tradition.
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And up until that time and I was
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over 40 at the time I'll
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have to admit to
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you that I don't
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believe
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that I knew anybody who
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was gay or who said
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they were gay. I'm sure I knew lots
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of them but everybody
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was really bottled up
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and in the closet big time.
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So I
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I didn't know
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anybody and when they mentioned that
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this some fellow member
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of our church that was being
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brought in as a session member
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I was ushered into a whole
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new world that
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was not familiar to me.
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And so
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being a lawyer,
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I was a lawyer all my life, and
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I was appointed to the Committee of
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Counsel for Third Presbyterian
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Church to
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defend this case
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and we defended it before
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the Permanent
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Judicial Commission of the
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presbytery and then I
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believe that it went
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to the
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synod, PJC
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and
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I think what I can't
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remember exactly how
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it came out but
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it didn't seem to throw us off
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track
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too much.
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We kind of
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kept going.
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It never got to the
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General Assembly PJC in
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any event. That was one event
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and because
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of this information that I had
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now had in my head
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I started going to a committee
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that had been formed at
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Downtown Church called the More
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Light or at Third Presbyterian
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called the More Light Committee.
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And it was formed in the
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very early 80s
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after the definitive
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guidance was issued in 1979
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I think.
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And so
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in the More
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Light Committee we
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talked a lot about what we can
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do to change the policy
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of the church.
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And
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in the course of all this
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I went to a lot
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of national conferences
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and
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met a lot of wonderful wonderful
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people that were connected with this
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cause both straight and gay
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and one of the people that
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we met, and by
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the way may I say that my future
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wife was also on the
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session at Third Presbyterian,
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Kay Wallace.
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She and I went up to a lot of these
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meetings and we
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met Janie Spahr
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who was
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in Rochester frequently.
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And
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so I got to
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know Janie
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and
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she used to stay with Virginia
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Davidson who was also, she was
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Virginia Davidson was
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in the Downtown Church.
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In any event to move things forward
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at some point
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the Downtown Church
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decided to call Janie Spahr as
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our pastor.
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And I'm thinking to myself that's
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really pushing
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the envelope.
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And so
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that at the Downtown Church
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called Janie and
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we were sued again
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this time by
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I think there must have been
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nine or ten members pastors
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and other churches in the
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presbytery
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that
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brought the case against
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us.
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I think the case actually was
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against the Presbytery of the
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Genesee Valley because
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it was the presbytery that was
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calling Janie.
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And so
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I was on the Committee of Counsel
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together with a couple
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of other wonderful people
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and got to know Janie very well.
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And we went through
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the full thing
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and I think at the
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synod level I think
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we got a good result.
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I think they said the synod
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approved her
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ordination but
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then we we went to the
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PJC at
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the General Assembly level
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and and
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they voted against us and that
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was a huge disappointment
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because all of us just loved Janie
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we wanted her so badly
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here.
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So she couldn't be here.
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But some
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of us sat around and decided
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that there's more
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than one way to skin a cat.
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And we
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decided that we would
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call her a lesbian evangelist.
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You probably heard this story a
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million times but that's
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what we called her.
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And there was a wonderful man
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whose name I can't remember
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who was the at
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the administrative head of the
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Presbyterian Church
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at the time that
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the definitive guidance was
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put in.
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Maybe you remember his name.
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But in any
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event I got to be
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a very good friend of his admired
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him tremendously
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and he he
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was wholeheartedly in support of
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what we were doing.
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And
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the I'm sure there's correspondence
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in Philadelphia in your
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archives of my correspondence
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with him and others
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and he saw us through
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the whole thing.
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In
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the process my, she
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was my future wife at this point,
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and I were
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heavily involved with the Downtown
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Church.
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We had to be because she was going
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to come here and
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the net result of that was is that
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we changed our affiliation
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from Third Church to Downtown and
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we were here
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for over 20 years.
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And that
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was a very exciting time because we
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got turned down for Janie and
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then we
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essentially took our
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show on the road and we went I
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went to several general
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assemblies all
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over the place. The first one was in
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Orlando and goodness
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knows where else
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hammering on this
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subject and after
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a while well
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it was
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a cause
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and it
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didn't get much traction in the
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beginning. But as you know the
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end of the story is that finally
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we persevered.
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I had another case that I took for
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a church in
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New Hampshire and I can't
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remember which one it was.
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It was in oh Burlington,
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Vermont. It was the
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Presbyterian church First
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Presbyterian or something
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Burlington, Vermont.
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And I
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was the
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lawyer on that case met some
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wonderful people there was one
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person that I just admired so
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much his name was Dan Little.
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And I don't know whether he
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shows up anywhere
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but I
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think that was one of the richest part
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of my experience.
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And then
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there was not only Janie and,
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is the name Scott Anderson
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familiar to you?
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I
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was very close to Scott and do
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you know one of the fallouts
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from this whole thing is that Kay
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Wallace and I got married and
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we got married at the Downtown
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Church in
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1997.
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And Janie and Scott officiated
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at our service.
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So.
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And that
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was that was a very happy time.
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I've kept we've kept in touch
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with Janie.
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She was in Rochester I think earlier
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this year and we had
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lunch with her. I've
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sort of lost track of Scott. Do you
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know what's ever happened to him?
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He was out in the Midwest
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and he
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took a. He gave up his
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ordination for a while and
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then he got
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it back.
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I think after this was all over and
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but it
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he had some kind of it was a Council
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of Churches type of job.
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But I think he was interested
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in parish ministry and
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he may have gone back to it now that
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it's. I would
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love to be in touch with him again and
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also you know the people
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involved in the Covenant Network.
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People like Pam Byers
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who she died
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I believe.
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I did a lot of work with
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her and also
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Tricia Dykers Koenig.
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And
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I think she may still be cruising
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along. She's a
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tiger and I've
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worked with them and there
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was another one Doug Nave.
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Does that familiar to you? Doug Nave
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was a lawyer
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and and
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he
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was a very impressive man and
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a good friend. Doug
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Nave was
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a partner in one of the really
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outstanding Wall
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Street law firms.
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And I remember that
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when I was dealing with him he was
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involved in the Covenant Network
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and he
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was his law firm had sent him
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to London and
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he'd
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been there for a while and he wanted
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to come back but meanwhile he'd
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fallen in love with a guy in London
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who
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couldn't get a visa so that they
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were in the process just
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trying to figure out how to get him
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in. And I don't know how that ended
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up but I enjoyed
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Doug a lot.
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He was
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I believe a graduate of the Harvard
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Law School and so was I.
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So we had that that bond
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in common as well as
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some other things.
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And so
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it was a very exciting
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important time in my life.
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Just to know these
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dedicated human beings.
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It really restores
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your faith.
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We need a few more them right now.
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Anyway that's
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the elevator speech.
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So you know you came at this as a
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lawyer. What were some of the like legal strategies that you used?
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Well
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you couldn't you
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couldn't just
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come up directly and say
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this is "unchristian."
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I mean that
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should
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have been a sufficient
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legal reason.
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But what you had to do as a lawyer
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is to take a look at the
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underlying documents.
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For instance
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you look at the I think it's in the
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preamble
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to the Book of Order it says
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that God
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alone is Lord of the conscience
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and and
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talks about at the end of
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the day people have to decide
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for themselves
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what they wish to believe
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and also
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there
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was the Book of Order and then
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at a higher level there is the Book
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of Confessions
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and we
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were in a way constrained
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to try to live within the parameters
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of the Book of Order
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because that was what governed the
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discipline of the church.
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So we had to look at that closely
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but I had, I once
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got a very nice
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letter. You remember Jack Rogers?
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He was moderator at one point
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and he
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wrote me
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a note and I think a copy of this
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is in your file but
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it was this was back in when
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I was in the midst of all this, in
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the midst of the Janie case I think
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and I wrote
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him with
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an analysis of the way I was gonna
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approach this case.
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He said "Thanks for your paper.
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I think it's impressive.
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And
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excuse me, I think it expresses
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the central issue
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'colon' we've used
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the Book of Order
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to enact
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a statement which should have
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been processed through the Book of
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Confessions."
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He thought that really the book that
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is a more fundamentalist
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doctrinal document.
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That's what he thought. He
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said "Thanks for keeping at this.
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I think this paper is your
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clearest and best effort.
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I would like to pass it on to the
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task force
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if we can get it appointed."
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They were going to appoint a task
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force of church
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leaders to try to see where to go.
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Anyway I have cherish
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this letter from him.
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And I
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just
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think that
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that he was one of
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the many
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fine people that I met along
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the way.
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So anyway that's
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what it is.
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Wonderful. Well were there a lot of
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publicity surrounding these
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cases that you were in?
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Yes there were
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at least in the
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Presbyterian Church.
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And in fact at
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one point I
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wrote an article for the
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Presbyterian Outlook
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which got a lot of positive
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and negative comments
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and
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some nasty people wrote
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letters to the editor and
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said you know
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these gay people they all hang
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together and look at the way they
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talk and not
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having any idea that I was
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as far from being gay as you can
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imagine.
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But that didn't
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bother the way people talked
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about this.
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But anyway that was
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there was a lot of publicity.
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I don't think I mean it wasn't the
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kind of thing you see in the New
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York Times very much.
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I think maybe
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when these cases
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were decided there was there was
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something in it but
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it was mostly
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news of interest
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in Presbyterian Church circles.
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And certainly in the
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not only here but also
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nationally because it was
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going to affect the whole
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future course of the church and
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the church was very
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seriously divided.
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And one of the things that
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is just sort of an amazing
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evolution for me
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is that
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the sentiment
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turned so quickly
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that you know there was a
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I think there was
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a
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law passed like in Vermont
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approving domestic partnerships.
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It was just the beginning
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and then I think Massachusetts
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legalized marriage and
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it just turned into a flood
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and I
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contrast that huge
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sort of change of moral
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sentiment, I contrast
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that with the
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great struggle that African
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Americans have had
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in getting recognition
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as a minority. That
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does not seem right to me either.
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And to some
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extent I've worked on some of that
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those challenges but
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this when it got
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underway and people thought about
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it it was a
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very uplifting
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evolution in our country.
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I appreciate it.
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So.
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Okay, if you want to talk
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a little bit about what impact
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this has had on your life?
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Well it's probably it's probably
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what led me to a deepening
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relationship with Kay Wallace.
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And we got married.
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I had been married before
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but it was a very
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very difficult relationship.
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And we had
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several separations
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going back many years.
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And
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I met Kay.
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I met her at Third Presbyterian
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Church in a More
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Light meeting. I think that was
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really what it was.
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Just came out of the woodwork.
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And so on a very
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personal level that was a very
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important
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development in my own life
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because
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it gave me new
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hope that
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there there was a way
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of thinking about life that was very
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different from what I had been used
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to.
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So
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that that was and then
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and then some of the people of
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course Ginny Davidson is gone.
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She was a very motherly
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figure but very powerful.
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Ginny Davidson I think was
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the, at one
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point she was a vice
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moderator I think of
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the General Assembly and I think
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she is the one that
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was on this committee that
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ended up with the definitive
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guidance and she that
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she wrote a minority report
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and Rochester
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was really a
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hotbed of defiance
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if you will and
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it's kind of
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interesting because
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my family
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my forebears lived in Rochester
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since really the beginning.
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The first ones
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came like in 1816.
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It was just a little farmhouse then.
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In any event
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when the Civil Rights Movement
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really got hot in the
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1840s and 50s, my
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family and others
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in town operated
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stations on the Underground Railroad
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and Frederick Douglass came
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to live in Rochester and he did
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his paper, The
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North Star.
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He published it in Rochester
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and so
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these slaves would be drawn
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to Rochester because they were
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looking for
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protection and direction
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from Frederick Douglass
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and Frederick Douglass
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had a very close relationship
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with a great uncle of mine
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and I have a letter from
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Frederick Douglass to this great
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uncle basically
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saying I have
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three weary men at my, you have to
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be very careful, all of
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it is illegal you know, in the 1840s
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and 50s you're
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not supposed to be helping
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slaves escape.
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But he said I have three
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weary men at my
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home and I am not well.
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Could you please come immediately
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something like that.
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And that was the signal
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for my
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uncle great uncle
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to get in his carriage
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and go up there and collect these
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people and get them down to
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the boat
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the British
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boats that were trafficking
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back and forth to Canada
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just carrying goods and so on.
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We did a lot of trade with them and
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to get them on the boat.
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Soon as they were on the boat
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they were out of American
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territory and they were home free
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in Canada. But that was the
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objective is to get
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them from Frederick Douglass'
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house to the boat and he
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did a lot of that.
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So I'm
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very I'm very proud of that.
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I'm very proud of the fact that I
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had another cousin
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in the 1850s who was
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a professor of theology at Oberlin
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and there was an escaping slave
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that came through Oberlin
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and the federal marshals
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captured him and
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they were about to take him back
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south to his former owner
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and a whole bunch of
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townspeople in Oberlin
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rose up including
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this professor of theology
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my my cousin
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and and
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they raided the hotel
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where the marshals were holding this
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guy overnight and
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and captured him and
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and sent him on his way to Canada.
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And then of course they got
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arrested. They'd violated the
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law and
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and spent some time in
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jail. So that's a whole nother
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story.
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Anyway it's been
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an interesting ride and I'm
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glad to play a small part
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in
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what's going on in America.
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So there are a lot of bad things
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going on in America now.
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I'm glad to say once in a while
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something good happens.
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Well I think that might be a good
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place to stop unless there's
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anything else you'd like to add.
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Sure, there you are.
speaker
Well great.

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Details

Title: Peter Oddleifson oral history, 2019.
Description: Peter Oddleifson was an elder at Third Presbyterian Church (Rochester, NY), an attorney who contributed to the national LGBTQ movement for equal ordination rights in the PC(USA), and an early member of That All May Freely Serve (TAMFS). TAMFS began in 1993 after Rev. Jane Adams Spahr, a lesbian minister, was banned by the Permanent Judicial Commission from accepting a call to serve as a pastor of Downtown United Presbyterian Church (Rochester, NY). Downtown Church formed TAMFS ministry in response, electing Spahr to serve as a "lesbian evangelist" to the PC(USA), and advocating for the full inclusion of LGBTQIA+ Presbyterians.
Creator: Oddleifson, Peter. (interviewee)
Wittrig, Elizabeth L. (interviewer)
Date: 2019
June 1, 2019
Type of resource: moving image
Genre: oral histories
interviews
Form: born digital
video recordings
Extent: 369 MB (1 MP4 file)
Language: English
Subject names: That All May Freely Serve (Association)
Spahr, Jane Adams.
Oddleifson, Peter.
Topics: Ordination of gays.
Ordination of lesbians.
Geographic subjects: North and Central America--United States
Rights status: IN COPYRIGHT - NON-COMMERCIAL USE PERMITTED; http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/
Physical location: ARCHIVES 19-0602; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA
Related item: That All May Freely Serve oral histories, 2019.--http://prestohost68.inmagic.com/Presto/content/Detail.aspx?ctID=Y2RiNWNk...
Identifier (local): 19-0602_Oddleifson
PID (Persistent Identifier): islandora:285211

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Peter Oddleifson oral history, 2019.

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