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Bertram Johnson oral history, 2019.
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- speakerThis is Sonia Prescott and
- speakerElizabeth Wittrig. We
- speakerare interviewing Bertram Johnson
- speakeras part of our oral history project.
- speakerAnd today is November 12th.
- speakerSo our first question. You
- speakergraduated from Princeton Theological
- speakerSeminary in 1996,
- speakerwhich
- speakerwas around the time that Amendment B and Amendment A were first
- speakerintroduced at General Assembly.
- speakerDo you remember when you first heard
- speakerabout Amendment B?
- speakerI don't remember like the first time
- speakerI heard about it, but I remember the
- speakerconversation about it
- speakerand its impact on seminary
- speakercommunity and folks moving forward
- speakerwith ordination.
- speakerLike you said, I finished seminary
- speakerin 96 and
- speakerwas in the ordination process with
- speakerthe Presbyterian Church
- speakerand was just in the process of
- speakercoming out.
- speakerAnd so I
- speakerdefinitely felt like. Well it felt
- speakerlike an impediment. And
- speakeranother reason for me to stay
- speakercloseted.
- speakerSo I really didn't
- speakerrespond to it.
- speakerIt was more like an internal, like it
- speakerjust added to my discernment process
- speakeron if I should move forward or not.
- speakerAnd did you decide to move forward?
- speakerSo,
- speakeryeah, I stayed in the ordination
- speakerprocess.
- speakerI was a candidate.
- speakerI grew up in Florida and
- speakerI was working at University
- speakerPresbyterian Church in Seattle at
- speakerthe time.
- speakerI had a job there right
- speakerout of seminary.
- speakerSo I finished my MDiv in 96
- speakermy MSW in 97, moved
- speakerto Seattle for what was supposed to
- speakerbe a year position.
- speakerMoved
- speakerthere, met my first boyfriend
- speakerand sort of unexpectedly
- speakercame into that relationship.
- speakerHe was a friend.
- speakerHe was also involved in ministry.
- speakerWe were in a men's bible
- speakerstudy together, had
- speakerfeelings for each other, struggled
- speakerthrough all of that.
- speakerI mean, this is sort maybe
- speakerway too much more information than
- speakeryou want,
- speakerbut was starting to come
- speakerout
- speakerand accept myself as a gay man
- speakerat the same time as I was trying to
- speakermove forward in the ordination
- speakerprocess and had lots
- speakerof questions and doubts about myself
- speakerand how do
- speakerI do this with a sense of integrity?
- speakerThere was a position that I was
- speakeroffered at, doing campus
- speakerministry
- speakerin Seattle and I was really excited
- speakerabout it, but felt
- speakerthat I couldn't pursue it because
- speakerthe organization was more
- speakerconservative and they had a
- speakerstatement, you know like
- speakeran ethical moral statement that
- speakeryou had to agree to this, this and
- speakerthis.
- speakerAnd I just felt like I couldn't do
- speakerit. And so that was one of the
- speakerreasons why I felt like I couldn't
- speakermove forward in ministry at that
- speakerpoint.
- speakerAnd then I went to a church where it
- speakerwas actually which was
- speakermore accepting.
- speakerAnd people there knew that I was
- speakergay.
- speakerBut
- speakerstill, the broader statement of
- speakerthe church is that you have to
- speakeragree to sort
- speakerof this line of reasoning or this
- speakerform of theology.
- speakerAnd ultimately, it just felt like
- speakerif, if
- speakerthe church didn't want me as I was
- speakerfully, then I shouldn't be there.
- speakerAnd so I gave up sort of
- speakerthe idea or the notion of being
- speakercalled to ministry
- speakerand just let it sit, because I just
- speakerdidn't feel like I could be in the
- speakerchurch and be out because I had
- speakerreally come to grow and accept
- speakermyself as a gay man.
- speakerAnd then found that the church, well
- speakerknew that the church didn't want me
- speakerand the church had doubled down on
- speakerthat.
- speakerAt
- speakerthat point or further along did you
- speakerever consider leaving the PC(USA) like leaving the denomination?
- speakerYes, I did.
- speakerI did.
- speakerThere was one point where I'd
- speakeractually been at this church I was at, Mount Baker Park Presbyterian
- speakerChurch for like 10 years and, for a variety of reasons had great
- speakercommunity there. But
- speakerfelt like I needed
- speakerto be another place and I thought of
- speakereither there's an AME Church,
- speakerso more predominantly Black,
- speakerhistorically Black
- speakercongregation that was within
- speakerwalking distance of my apartment or
- speakera Presbyterian church
- speakerMadrona Grace Presbyterian, which
- speakerwas like a ten minute drive from my
- speakerplace.
- speakerAnd I went to visit
- speakerMadrona one Sunday and
- speakerI just felt like I have to be here.
- speakerI just knew that its was the place
- speakerfor me. Yeah,
- speakerI thought about leaving the
- speakerdenomination, but I just didn't feel
- speakercalled to it. I felt called into
- speakerthe Presbyterian Church.
- speakerI grew up Baptist
- speakerand
- speakerthe Presbyterian Church had been the place where
- speakerI got to grow and learn and
- speakerexperience life and leadership in
- speakerthe church.
- speakerAnd yeah, I didn't feel released
- speakerfrom it.
- speakerCan you talk a little bit about the environment of
- speakerPrinceton Theological Seminary
- speakerduring the mid 90s
- speakerspecifically for LGBTQIA+
- speakerfolks on campus?
- speakerWell, so I started there in
- speakerfall of 93
- speakerand a Princeton declaration
- speakercame out I think the year before, the spring
- speakerof 93, and
- speakerso that was a group of conservative
- speakerstudents and faculty
- speakerand I guess staff who signed
- speakeron to this declaration about
- speakersexuality in the church.
- speakerAnd it was very divisive and caused
- speakera big rift in the community at that
- speakerpoint.
- speakerAnd so when I started, that was the
- speakeryear before I started, so when I
- speakerstarted that fall, I
- speakerfelt like the seminary environment
- speakerwas very tender.
- speakerConversation about sex
- speakerand sexuality and ordination
- speakerhad become such a like
- speakera
- speakertouchstone or
- speakerelectric topic on campus
- speakerthat many people were not talking
- speakerabout it then.
- speakerBecause so much damage has been done
- speakerthe year before.
- speakerAnd so for me, it felt like
- speakerconversation had actually been sort
- speakerof suppressed.
- speakerAnd people, because of the wounds
- speakerthat happened just months before,
- speakerpeople were less willing to engage
- speakerin conversation.
- speakerThey happened in small pockets, but
- speakernot as much publicly as they
- speakerhad before.
- speakerIn terms of your experience with
- speakerdifferent congregations, have you
- speakeralways served in welcoming congregations?
- speakerNo.
- speakerNo, I haven't.
- speakerSo
- speakerUniversity Presbyterian in Seattle
- speakeris
- speakerI think it's like four, it was about four
- speakeror five thousand members when I was
- speakerthere. The senior minister when I
- speakerwas there was a trustee at
- speakerPrinceton Seminary.
- speakerAnd again, this was a time when I
- speakerwas not out and embracing
- speakermyself. And so I went
- speakerto the church because I had a great
- speakeropportunity, just going to be for a
- speakeryear working in urban ministry
- speakerand putting some of my
- speakersocial work skills together and
- speakerhelping the church move toward more
- speakereconomic and racial justice
- speakerethic.
- speakerBut at the same time, the church on
- speakerthe broader level was
- speakerfighting this battle around
- speakerordination and sex and sexuality.
- speakerSo that was the first church that
- speakerI served out of seminary
- speakerand I wasn't ordained.
- speakerBut still, there was a lot of
- speakerconflict even in that community
- speakerof a church that size there were
- speakerpeople there who were more open and
- speakeraffirming.
- speakerI don't know of many people who were
- speakerout or really anyone who was
- speakerout there because
- speakerit didn't feel like a safe place
- speakerbecause the sort of the
- speakertheological battle lines had been
- speakerdrawn so clearly.
- speakerAnd it was obvious where
- speakerthe staff and the senior ministers
- speakerstood at that point.
- speakerAnd so it was not a
- speakerreally safe or welcoming place for
- speakerme to be in.
- speakerI was already there as like the one
- speakerAfrican American person on staff
- speakerto be. To come out
- speakeror to express even
- speakerquestions about ordination and
- speakerissues of sexuality definitely was
- speakernot a place where I felt free to do
- speakerthat.
- speakerSo you were
- speakerordained at Madrona Grace Presbyterian Church. Could
- speakeryou describe your ordination
- speakerprocess?
- speakerGosh,
- speakerlong.
- speakerSo, yeah, I finished I'd
- speakerfinished seminary in 96.
- speakerI got
- speakerordained in 2014.
- speakerSo I have friends from
- speakerseminary who'd already been
- speakerin their second, third, fourth
- speakercall by that point
- speakerand I don't
- speakerresent
- speakermy process.
- speakerI'm grateful for knowing
- speakerthe way that God has walked with me
- speakerthrough my process.
- speakerBut like I said, I grew up Baptist,
- speakerjoined the Presbyterian Church in
- speakercollege.
- speakerFelt a call to ministry during
- speakerthat time. Went
- speakerto Princeton Seminary and started the ordination
- speakerprocess toward the end of my
- speakerdiscernment there.
- speakerI wasn't really
- speakersure if I could be Presbyterian and
- speakerI didn't know any Black
- speakerPresbyterians prior.
- speakerAnd the
- speakerPresbyterian Church was to me
- speakerlargely white.
- speakerI mean, still, this
- speakeris largely white denomination.
- speakerAnd so there were some
- speakercultural theological issues that I
- speakerhad. Like, do
- speakerI fit in here? Is this a safe place
- speakerfor me? And I think also
- speakerlurking in the background was the
- speakerquestion of sex
- speakerand sexuality and how do I make
- speakersense of myself at this point.
- speakerSo I finished,
- speakerlike I said, in 96 and
- speakerI think in 97 or so was approved
- speakerto,
- speakercertified to take a call. But
- speakeragain, because of where the church,
- speakerthe church was and decisions
- speakeraround Amendment A or B, I felt
- speakerlike I
- speakerdon't think I can do this with a sense
- speakerof integrity.
- speakerAnd so like I said, I left the
- speakerordination process.
- speakerI forget what year it
- speakerwas. I think I was a candidate for a
- speakernumber of years and then just
- speakerdecided it doesn't feel like the
- speakerethos or
- speakerthe theology is gonna be more
- speakerwelcoming. And so I decided
- speakerI
- speakertold my committee there in Seattle that
- speakerI don't feel a sense of call to
- speakerministry right now, which is, well I
- speakerdon't think it's totally a lie.
- speakerIt felt more like this is a way for
- speakerme to preserve my safety in the
- speakerchurch.
- speakerBut I don't feel a
- speakersense of call to a church that
- speakerdoesn't want me and doesn't welcome
- speakermy full gifts.
- speakerAnd so I left the
- speakerprocess, I forget what year it was. It was after 2000.
- speakerAnd then I forget what year
- speakerwas it 2012 when the polity changed again?
- speaker2011.
- speaker11, 2011 when the polity
- speakerbecame more open for
- speakerLGBTQ people.
- speakerAnd I remember at
- speakerthat point, friends who knew me as
- speakeran out man called and said, oh, you
- speakercan be ordained now.
- speakerAnd I said, well, why would I want
- speakerto do that because I'd left the
- speakerprocess.
- speakerAnd again,
- speakerfelt that, you know, why should I
- speakersqueeze myself into the confines
- speakerof the church if it really doesn't
- speakerfully embrace me like the polity has
- speakerchange. But I didn't know if people's
- speakerhearts had changed.
- speakerAnd if it was a place where
- speakerI could be myself as an out gay man
- speakerand feel embraced and that my gifts would be honored and free to grow.
- speakerDo you want the full story?
- speakerThere's like a whole elaborate
- speakerstory of getting suckered back
- speakerinto the ordination process.
- speakerYeah, we want it. If you're willing.
- speakerI was at, so I'd been at Mount Baker for a number of years,
- speakerten years or so, and then started
- speakerattending Madrona Grace.
- speakerI told myself after 10 years
- speakerat Mount Baker that I wasn't gonna
- speakerdo anything at Madrona Grace.
- speakerI'm just going to go.
- speakerI'm just going to worship.
- speakerI'm not going to get involved in
- speakeranything.
- speakerNothing for at least a year, for
- speakerthe first year.
- speakerAnd the first thing I did
- speakerwas sing in the Christmas Eve
- speakerservice. And I was working in
- speakermusical theater at that point
- speakerand I sang a solo.
- speakerOh, holy night.
- speakerAnd after that, people were like
- speakeryou're in the choir.
- speakerIt's not like I had an option, just
- speakerlike it was like a command.
- speakerAnd I was like, oh, okay.
- speakerSo that was like week 50 into the
- speaker52 weeks I told myself I can't do
- speakeranything at church.
- speakerAnd so I started singing in
- speakerthe choir at the church.
- speakerAnd within a few months,
- speakerI could see that there was like this
- speakerdivision between what was happening
- speakerwith the music ministry and what was
- speakerhappening with the preaching and the
- speakerrest of the liturgy.
- speakerAnd it didn't feel like things were
- speakerunited. And so I
- speakerbecame sort of this go between
- speakerthe pastor and the music director
- speakerwho were not I'd say fully on the
- speakersame page at that point.
- speakerAnd so I could stand in the gap and
- speakerhelp bridge the two given
- speakermy theological training and my music
- speakerexperience.
- speakerAnd so after doing that for a number
- speakerof months.
- speakerWell, actually, there's there's
- speakeranother piece that was.
- speakerOne night I was leaving work.
- speakerI was working in HIV prevention,
- speakerresearch and education
- speakerat Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research
- speakerCenter and was leaving
- speakerwork one night, walking home and
- speakergetting ready to go to choir
- speakerrehearsal. And sort of had a bad
- speakerattitude about it because
- speakerof some of the frustrations that I
- speakersaw in the music ministry of the
- speakerchurch, that
- speakerpeople who loved music and loved to
- speakersing, but it didn't feel like it was
- speakernecessarily from a place of worship
- speakerand connection to God.
- speakerAnd I was frustrated in the
- speakersense of looking forward to going to
- speakera rehearsal that I was frustrated.
- speakerLike God.
- speakerLike what?
- speakerWhat do we do to change this?
- speakerHow do we make this actually more
- speakerworshipful and vibrant?
- speakerAnd what I heard God say was like,
- speakeroh, you just need to be their pastor.
- speakerI was like, oh, okay, I get it.
- speakerLike pastor them, support them
- speakerthrough this experience and help
- speakerthem understand how when we come
- speakerto worship and we come to sing
- speakerin church, like we're actually here
- speakerto worship God and we're
- speakerhere to use our gifts and our
- speakerexperiences as a conduit or
- speakeras a as a bridge that help people
- speakerengage in worship.
- speakerI was like, okay. God, yeah, great.
- speakerI can do that. Yeah, I'll just need
- speakerto pastor them, sort of shepherd
- speakerthem through this experience.
- speakerAnd then
- speakermaybe two months later Mark,
- speakerwho was the minister at Madrona Grace at the time, said
- speakerhe wanted to talk to me about
- speakersomething. And so we had lunch one
- speakerday after church and he
- speakersaid, so I want you to think about
- speakerthis, but what's
- speakerpreventing you from being ordained
- speakerright now?
- speakerAnd I was like, crap. And
- speakerI knew that there
- speakerwas no reason for me not to be
- speakerordained into this
- speakerrole of worship pastor.
- speakerOther than anything that was fear
- speakerrelated
- speakerand I felt like I could sort of hear
- speakerGod's voice laughing at me in the
- speakerbackground because I'd already said
- speakeryes.
- speakerI said yes to God. Yes.
- speakerI will be their pastor sort of in
- speakerthe general sense of I will support
- speakerthese people and help them connect
- speakerto their own sense of faith
- speakerin a way that's vibrant and dynamic
- speakerand helps pull people into worship.
- speakerAnd then when Mark asked me to do
- speakerit, like two months later, I was
- speakerlike, I couldn't think of a reason
- speakeror a way to say no that
- speakerfelt true to
- speakerwhat I'd already agreed to to God.
- speakerAnd really sort of growing
- speakerback into my sense of call and that
- speakerI had questioned to that point if
- speakera person can lose a sense of call,
- speakerthat it may come and go.
- speakerBut I think
- speakerI don't think I ever lost it.
- speakerI think there wasn't the place
- speakerfor me to to use my gifts in the way
- speakerthat felt authentic
- speakerand almost unique to
- speakerwho I am.
- speakerSo I took a couple of weeks and
- speakertried to think of reasons that
- speakerweren't fear based
- speakerand weren't just like me trying to
- speakerflee again
- speakerthe ordination process.
- speakerAnd I felt like if I didn't say
- speakeryes this time, it would come back
- speakerto swallow me up
- speakerand I'd be sent to Nineveh,
- speakersomewhere I don't really want to be.
- speakerSo I might as well say yes to God
- speakernow and
- speakeraccept the call that I had.
- speakerAnd so I met with Mark two weeks
- speakerlater, and it was basically like,
- speakeryes, I agree.
- speakerAnd then we got
- speakerme back into the ordination process,
- speakerwhich took about
- speakerI think six
- speakermonths I came back as a
- speakercandidate in Seattle Presbyterian
- speakerand then went before Presbytery,
- speakerand even that experience was there
- speakerwere some
- speakerchallenges around that. The
- speakernight that I was examined on the
- speakerfloor of Presbytery, I knew there
- speakerwere people who knew that I was out
- speakerand I don't know.
- speakerIt was never discussed.
- speakerBut I knew that people knew that I
- speakerwas out. And
- speakerafter I had been examined and
- speakerapproved, folks
- speakerfrom across the Presbytery came and
- speakergave me hugs and blessings and
- speakershared much
- speakergratitude. And people were
- speakersaying thank you for staying in the
- speakerprocess or coming back to the
- speakerprocess. And there was
- speakera guy who was a member on staff at
- speakeranother larger church in the area.
- speakerAnd he
- speakersaid, "Hey, we
- speakerlove you and we love your church.
- speakerBut for the peace, purity and unity
- speakerof the denomination or of the
- speakerPresbytery, let's not make a
- speakerbig thing about this." Like
- speakerwe're letting you get ordained.
- speakerBasically, like we've
- speakerallowed this, don't
- speakerdo anything to upset us now, which
- speakerfelt to me like,
- speakeroh, you've been welcomed here,
- speakerbut we're gonna put you in your
- speakerplace. So don't forget
- speakerthat we can sort of make or break
- speakeryou. That's what it felt like.
- speakerAnd so that was, you know,
- speakerwithin moments of being approved for
- speakerordination.
- speakerAnd so it was a sign to me that,
- speakeryes, God has a place
- speakerfor me in the church, but it's not
- speakergoing to be an easy road still.
- speakerAnd that even though I'm
- speakerwelcomed here
- speakerand there are many people who were
- speakerjoyful and supportive,
- speakerthat there are still people who
- speakerdon't recognize me or see me
- speakerin the church.
- speakerAnd it felt it feels like
- speakerthe way that oppression works in the
- speakerchurch.
- speakerYou know, that women's
- speakerordination has been approved for,
- speakeryou know, over a generation now, but
- speakerstill there are churches that don't
- speakeraccept women. There are
- speakerchurches that are still largely
- speakerwhite and divided by
- speakerracism and white supremacy.
- speakerThey wouldn't name it as such, but yet they would
- speakernever consider
- speakerhiring a pastor who was a person
- speakerof color.
- speakerAnd in the same way
- speakerfor LGBTQIA folks
- speakerthat, you know, it's
- speakera decision that the
- speakerbroader denomination has approved,
- speakerbut there's still churches
- speakerthat would not welcome
- speakerqueer identified folks.
- speakerAnd so,
- speakeragain, it felt like this is a moment
- speakerwhere God's saying, yes,
- speakerI affirm you and approve of who
- speakeryou are and what you're called to
- speakerdo, but realize that
- speakeryou will have challenges.
- speakerAnd that ultimately,
- speakerI really have to rely on God to get
- speakerme through this experience.
- speakerCould you talk a little bit about
- speakerwhat the actual service was like,
- speakerthe ordination service?
- speakerSome folks had mentioned, you know,
- speakerthe extent to which it was very
- speakerpersonal, very like celebratory moment?
- speakerYeah, my ordination was awesome.
- speakerI loved it.
- speakerI called it my one man solo
- speakermarriage to God.
- speakerIt felt like it did feel like a
- speakerwedding at that point,
- speakera union.
- speakerAnd
- speakerit was the longest
- speakerordination I've been to,
- speakerbut I had sort of every
- speakeraspect or the aspects of my
- speakerlife that were meaningful.
- speakerI had a Toni Morrison
- speakerreading. I had dance.
- speakerI had Gospel
- speakermusic,
- speakerchoral music and friends from
- speakerseminary came.
- speakerI'll say that a friend, a dear
- speakerfriend from seminary came
- speakerto my ordination in 2014 and I was
- speakerthrilled to be able to take part in
- speakerhis ordination service
- speakerjust three
- speakerweeks ago.
- speakerMike Hagman has gone on
- speakerand gotten a PhD
- speakerfrom Princeton and gone on and taught and done
- speakeran amazing job of
- speakereducation in the church,
- speakerbut just now he just got ordained.
- speakerAnd I'm grateful for
- speakerhis faithfulness and for his
- speakerdedication to staying in the process
- speakerconsidering we both finished
- speakerseminary in 96 and so 2019 he's
- speakergetting ordained, got ordained.
- speakerBut my ordination service felt
- speakerthe feeling was just joy
- speakerand love and affirmation.
- speakerAnd
- speakerlike I lived in Seattle for 19
- speakeryears and got ordained I guess in
- speakerthe last four or
- speakerthe last three years that I was
- speakerthere and I'd worked in three
- speakerchurches at that point.
- speakerI'd done hospital chaplaincy.
- speakerI'd worked in musical theater for a
- speakernumber of years and had
- speakerdance community, had friends from
- speakerall over sort of the spectrum of
- speakermy life who were there and people
- speakerwho, you know, church people and
- speakerpeople with no religious
- speakerfaith or no
- speakerformal faith but
- speakerwho were all there and it felt like
- speakermy entire community upheld me in
- speakermany ways.
- speakerAnd realizing that my ministry and
- speakerthat I think
- speakeras an out gay man who loves God
- speakerand is committed to the church,
- speakerthat just being there, so many
- speakerpeople who've been wounded by, you
- speakerknow this, by the
- speakerexperience of organized religion and
- speakerChristianity and the church.
- speakerAnd to stand in that place
- speakersort of
- speakeras a bridge between
- speakersometimes secular and sacred
- speakerlives or, you know,
- speakerpeople who don't feel welcome in the
- speakerchurch, but who go
- speakerand to offer them God's
- speakergrace.
- speakerIt may not they may never go back
- speakerto a Presbyterian church and they
- speakermay never feel
- speakerlike they want to join a church.
- speakerBut to believe that God
- speakerloves them,
- speakerwhether they're queer atheists or
- speakerwhatever, or this notion
- speakerof a God that loves them, felt
- speakerlike a really healing opportunity
- speakerfor me and for the community.
- speakerAnd I think that's one of the things
- speakerthat was most joyful about my
- speakerordination for me is that it was
- speakerreally a place where all people
- speakercould come and experience, at least
- speakerin that moment, a sense of God's
- speakergrace and justice in the world.
- speakerAnd some of my best friends who were
- speakerwere not religious folks felt like,
- speakerthey came and they heard the sermon
- speakerthat Michael Livingston,
- speakerwho was the chaplain of Princeton at
- speakerthat time and has
- speakerbeen a mentor throughout my life,
- speakerhe's now the interim senior
- speakerminister at
- speakerRiverside.
- speakerHe preached a great sermon
- speakerthat
- speakerthat helped everyone to understand
- speakerthat they have a role in God's
- speakerjustice or justice in the world,
- speakerregardless of if you ascribe
- speakerto a belief in a god or not.
- speakerSo it felt
- speakerlike what I hoped
- speakerhope for was accomplished in
- speakercreating a place where all people
- speakercould come and feel
- speakerGod's love are loved as a whole.
- speakerSo the next question I have for you.
- speakerCan you talk a little bit about your
- speakerfirst full time ordained call at
- speakerRiverside
- speakerChurch in 2016?
- speakerYes. So I started at Riverside in
- speakerFebruary 2016
- speakerand
- speakermy title was Minister of
- speakerJustice, Advocacy and Change.
- speakerAnd I was on staff there for about
- speakerthree and a half years and really
- speakergrateful for that opportunity
- speakerbecause it did feel like a
- speakerwedding of my passions - my
- speakerexperience in working as, well
- speakerin social work. I have a
- speakerMasters in Social Work from Rutgers
- speakerand the engagement
- speakerin the church to move
- speakerin the direction of greater justice
- speakerfor all people and the church has
- speakerbeen an icon
- speakeror sort of a model
- speakerfor social justice movements
- speakerin Christian communities for
- speakerdecades.
- speakerAnd it was an honor to be able to
- speakerstand in that on
- speakerthat staff. To share in that staff for the three
- speakerand a half years that I did.
- speakerSome of the
- speakerwork that we were getting involved
- speakerin with the Poor People's Campaign
- speakerunder the direction of Reverend Dr.
- speakerLeslie Harris and
- speakerDr. William Barber.
- speakerWe were involved in immigration
- speakerissues.
- speakerThe church has always has
- speakerhad a ministry called Maranatha,
- speakerwhich I think is one of the longest
- speakerrunning LGBTQ ministries
- speakerin a Christian church or longest
- speakerrunning. They were established
- speakerin the 70s.
- speakerSo I think they just had their
- speaker30th anniversary or 40th
- speakeranniversary. They had an anniversary just recently. And a variety of
- speakersmall
- speakerlocal ministries in ways that were
- speakermodeling and trying to share what
- speakerGod is doing in justice ministries.
- speakerSo it was great to be there.
- speakerOne point that I definitely
- speakerwant to talk about was the summer
- speakerretreats for queer pastors, pastors
- speakerthat were organized in the early
- speaker2000s. Could you speak
- speakera little bit about those retreats and what they were like for you?
- speakerSo I think I
- speakergot back in the ordination process
- speakerin 2012
- speakeror so.
- speakerAnd knew of Parity
- speakeror actually what
- speakerwas it called then?
- speakerPresbyterian Welcome.
- speakerI knew Presbyterian Welcome through
- speakerMark, who is the pastor at Turner
- speakerGrace. He
- speakertold me about it. And at that point
- speakerI was somewhat
- speakerreluctant to get involved just because I didn't
- speakerknow. Yeah,
- speakerI just hadn't been involved in the
- speakerchurch on a national level for a
- speakerwhile and I
- speakerdidn't know if this was gonna
- speakerbe a community where I felt
- speakerseen and that these were my
- speakerpeople.
- speakerBut I went.
- speakerI was blessed to
- speakerget a scholarship to go and
- speakerimmediately felt
- speakerlike, oh, these are my people.
- speakerAnd these are people who some
- speakerof whom had been in the struggle,
- speakerlike in the time that I had
- speakerforgone and
- speakersaid no to the ordination and
- speakercontinuing the ordination
- speakerprocess, that there were people who were
- speakerfighting and working behind the
- speakerscenes, some folks who were
- speakergetting ordained and they weren't
- speakerout. And then some people who were
- speakerout and really
- speakerpushing their presbyteries to
- speakerembrace the gifts that God has for
- speakerall the people of God.
- speakerAnd so I was really humbled to
- speakerbe a part of that group and met
- speakersome great friends. Friends who are
- speakernow colleagues in ministry here in
- speakerNew York Presbytery.
- speakerReverend Ashley
- speakerDeTar-Birt was small
- speakergroup leader then and I met Reverend
- speakerEric Thomas
- speakerthen and also Rev.
- speakerDerrick McQueen.
- speakerAnd so those were just, and so
- speakermany other people, but those are three
- speakerfolks who are here in New York City
- speakerPresbytery who
- speakerare also all African American.
- speakerAnd it was just
- speakergreat to be
- speakerin a queer
- speakercommunity where I was also
- speakersurrounded by and supported by
- speakerpeople from the African American
- speakercommunity, because
- speakersometimes it feels like you're going
- speakerto have to have one or the other.
- speakerBut it was great to be in the place
- speakerwhere I could be my full self as a
- speakeras a queer Black
- speakerman and and have a sense of
- speakerunderstanding, because
- speakerjust just because we're in a queer
- speakerspace doesn't
- speakermean that it's not absent of
- speakerracial prejudice and sort of
- speakertokenism that happens in
- speakerthe broader church.
- speakerAnd so I was grateful to find those
- speakerrelationships. And now to be in New
- speakerYork and to have them as
- speakerfriends. Ashley and I just
- speakerco-led a workshop here in
- speakerthe presbytery two
- speakerweeks ago or three
- speakerweeks ago on what does it
- speakermean for your church to be open and
- speakeraffirming. So there are church
- speakercongregations that say they are
- speakerwelcoming of queer identified
- speakerpeople, but what does that look
- speakerlike? How does your liturgy, how
- speakerdoes your space show
- speakerthat you welcome them? How does the
- speakersignage in your church and the way
- speakerthat you talk about God create
- speakeran environment that all people know that they're welcome there.
- speakerSo it was great to do that with her.
- speakerAnother question that we had.
- speakerOh and also one other thing. I was just remembering Alex McNeill was
- speakerordained last month.
- speakerAnd Alex is one of the first people
- speakerI met that first morning
- speakerthere at camp.
- speakerAnd it's great to
- speakersee his
- speakerfaithfulness and tremendous
- speakerleadership skills being recognized
- speakerfinally.
- speakerAnd I wasn't able to attend
- speakerthis ordination, but I have
- speakermany friends who were there and just
- speakerso grateful that the church is
- speakerwelcoming him in.
- speakerAnd as the second trans man, trans
- speakeridentified
- speakerperson to be ordained.
- speakerSo, yeah, you mentioned
- speakerthat all of you who are at these
- speakerretreats, what were the demographics generally like at these retreats?
- speakerWas there a significant community of color within these retreats?
- speakerNot
- speakerso much a huge
- speakernumber of people of color there.
- speakerBut I will say to
- speakerthe
- speakerbenefit and my gratitude
- speakerfor the leadership.
- speakerSo Reverend Mieke Vandersall, who's also a member of this presbytery, did
- speakera great job, she
- speakerand John Russell Stanger,
- speakercreating a welcoming environment
- speakerthat was really
- speakeruse this term in this way, but like
- speakerintersectional in that
- speakerthey weren't just dealing with queer
- speakerissues.
- speakerThey were pushing the envelope and
- speakerour understanding of what it means
- speakerto be a welcoming place for
- speakeranyone who's been marginalized in
- speakerthe church.
- speakerAnd so, you know, trans,
- speakerBlack, white, Latinx,
- speakerwhatever.
- speakerThat to me, it felt like, oh the
- speakerchurch is not just
- speakersort of working from a particular
- speakerbox or sort of siloed
- speakerexpression of justice.
- speakerIt's really this
- speakergroup working with Presbyterian
- speakerWelcome really helped me see that
- speakerwe're not thinking about God's
- speakergrace in one way, but for the full
- speakerexpanse of that and challenging
- speakerourselves around race and
- speakerclass and gender and identity,
- speakersexual orientation and
- speakerso it's I'm still grateful like
- speakerthey're people who are who I met
- speakerthat first experience
- speakerin 2013
- speakerthat are still part of my life and
- speakerfriends now.
- speakerAnd I feel like we support and
- speakerencourage each other to continue to
- speakergrow because this is
- speakera lifetime of work.
- speakerIt's not just, you know, I'm here,
- speakerI'm ordained. And that's done.
- speakerExactly.
- speakerWho have been your mentors within
- speakerthe church?
- speakerMy mentors.
- speakerThere are a number of people who
- speakercome to mind.
- speakerI will definitely say Michael
- speakerLivingston, who
- speakerhas been a friend and supporter
- speakersince my early days at
- speakerPrinceton when he was the chaplain
- speakerthere.
- speakerAnd Dr. Geddes,
- speakerDr. Geddes and Carrie Hanson.
- speakerHe's the first African American
- speakerprofessor at Princeton Seminary.
- speakerI never actually had him as a
- speakerprofessor, but
- speakerthe senior minister of the church I
- speakerattended in college did
- speakera DMin under Dr. Hanson's
- speakerleadership and I knew him
- speakerthrough that relationship.
- speakerAnd Dr. and
- speakerMrs. Hanson are
- speakerlike my second parents.
- speakerI will see them later on this week.
- speakerAnd he was just recognized.
- speakerThey were just recognized with a
- speakercommission painting
- speakerat Princeton Seminary,
- speakerjust I guess last month in October.
- speakerAnd so
- speakerI think just their care for me
- speakerand they've never pushed
- speakerme to come out.
- speakerThey gave me the safe place to do
- speakerit.
- speakerAnd
- speakerone other person from Princeton
- speakerSeminary again, I didn't have as a
- speakerprofessor, but Dr. James Kay
- speakerwhen I was really
- speakerstruggling around what was happening
- speakerwith our national polity and my role
- speakerin the church, I
- speakercalled Dr. Kay
- speakerin his office when I was living in I
- speakerwas years out of the seminary and
- speakerI called Dr. Kay
- speakerat Princeton Seminary and said, you
- speakermay not remember me, I'm Bertram
- speakerJohnson and
- speakerI need to talk to someone.
- speakerAnd
- speakerthe thing that Dr. Kay said as I was
- speakerwandering and flailing around
- speakerthe conversation was that if
- speakerGod didn't
- speakerwant gay people in church, God would
- speakerstop calling them to ministry
- speakeror God should stop calling them to
- speakerministry.
- speakerAnd
- speakerthere was,
- speakerhe said this probably over
- speaker20 years
- speakerago now.
- speakerAnd
- speakerit just gave me a sense of
- speakerconfidence that although the larger
- speakerbody of the church may not create a
- speakerplace for you, but your
- speakercall, your sense of being
- speakerand identity is really rooted in who
- speakerGod is and God's
- speakerselection election for you,
- speakerof you.
- speakerAnd in
- speakerthat, the church and our community
- speakeraffirm our call.
- speakerBut it first comes from God
- speakerto be God's child and then to be
- speakergifted and put in ministry in this
- speakerparticular way. And so, Dr. Kay's
- speakerbeen
- speakersomeone like I said, it didn't have
- speakera relationship with, but someone who
- speakershowed up in a particular way in my
- speakerlife when I really needed
- speakersome external guidance.
- speakerSo those are three, three,
- speakerthree people or three or four people
- speakerwho've been significant in my life.
- speakerSo
- speakerwhat do you think is next or current
- speakerfor the church?
- speakerWhat challenges do LGBTQIA+ pastors
- speakerstill face and what
- speakerdo you think still needs to be done
- speakerto create a more inclusive church?
- speakerYou know, in the
- speakerin the last few years, as
- speakerfolks who were maybe
- speakermore theologically conservative have separated
- speakerand the church has
- speakersort of reshaped its
- speakerstructure it
- speakerfeels like there's actually greater
- speakeropportunity for not just
- speakerLGBTQIA folks, but voices
- speakerwho've been marginalized
- speakerhistorically
- speakerin predominantly white institutions actually
- speakerget greater opportunity to to
- speakerbe ourselves and to move into
- speakerpositions of leadership. So I
- speakerthink that's true for women.
- speakerI think that's true for queer
- speakeridentified people. I think it's also true for racial and ethnic
- speakerminorities.
- speakerAs we lean into and listen
- speakerto the voices of those who've been silenced
- speakerand pushed to the sides and
- speakercreate a greater opportunity,
- speakeropportunity
- speakerfor them to be at the center and to
- speakerbe heard that it
- speakeractually creates this sort of the
- speakerbeloved kingdom, this, you know,
- speakerthis beloved community that God
- speakerdesires for us.
- speakerI think the work
- speakeraround economic
- speakerand racial justice are key.
- speakerAnd
- speakerI know you asked me about queer
- speakerissues, but I don't think we can we
- speakercan't just be a one note people
- speakerthat racism
- speakerand
- speakergender discrimination have always
- speakerbeen a part of our society,
- speakerand as we make inroads and
- speakerstrides there, we also
- speakerdo that within queer communities
- speakertoo. And so
- speakerI think that probably the biggest
- speakerissue right now would be economic
- speakerand racial diversity.
- speakerWell, racism
- speakerin the way that it's manifested as
- speakereconomic discrimination.
- speakerI think that's the broader
- speakerissue that we as a society in the
- speakerU.S. and around the world have to
- speakerdeal with. The way that we exploit
- speakerand negate, that
- speakerwe delegitimize people
- speakerbased on principles
- speakerof white supremacy.
- speakerAnd as we decolonize our theologies,
- speakerwe're actually moving to that place
- speakerwhere like
- speakerGod will create a new earth.
- speakerBut we're not there yet.
- speakerWe taste it and we see glimpses of
- speakerit. But it's a long road
- speakerand it's a battle that we have to
- speakermaintain.
- speakerDo you have any additional questions?
- speakerI was going to ask
- speakerif you wanted to talk just a little about filming Out of Order which was
- speakerabout those summer retreats.
- speakerYeah. Out of Order. I'm
- speakerglad you brought it up.
- speakerYou know, I came
- speakerback into the ordination process
- speakermuch later than other people.
- speakerAnd like Alex's story
- speakeris, I don't know, like 14 years or
- speakerso in the making.
- speakerAnd I guess mine is about that long
- speakertoo, but
- speakerit feels different.
- speakerI'm really honored to have my little
- speakerpiece. I mean, I'm the first
- speakerAfrican American to be
- speakerout and ordained in
- speakerthe denomination.
- speakerAnd it feels it's a
- speakerhumble.
- speakerI don't know. It feels like an honor
- speakerto be the first and it's just by
- speakerchance because I know there are
- speakerother people who were in the process
- speakerand know Eric and Derrick
- speakerwere actively in it before me
- speakeror at the same time.
- speakerJust the timing of it worked out
- speakerthat I'm here.
- speakerAnd so when I
- speakertalk about Out of Order and I know I
- speakerhave that designation within the
- speakerfilm, but I really stand on the
- speakershoulders of the people who
- speakerare in the process at the same time
- speakerand people who've come before me
- speakerwho didn't have the opportunity to
- speakerbe out, who didn't get
- speakerthe opportunity to share their
- speakerstories or to be fully embraced
- speakerwithin the denomination.
- speakerAnd so to be
- speakerrecognized
- speakerin Out of Order feels, it's this
- speakerweird gift from God
- speakerin some way.
- speakerBut I definitely want to say that I
- speakeram not here by myself and
- speakerit's just by chance that I got to be
- speakerthis person in that moment.
- speakerBut I celebrate the gifts of my
- speakersiblings, my brothers and sisters
- speakerwho
- speakerare still fighting to find
- speakervoice in the church, and I say
- speakerthat in the Presbyterian Church and
- speakerchurches throughout and
- speakerother denominations too. Out of Order should be
- speakerreleased for
- speakerpublic consumption sometime soon.
- speakerThere's some emails going around
- speakeraround that right now and
- speakerit feels a little dated actually,
- speakerit's sort
- speakerof a historic document now,
- speakerconsidering how the church has
- speakershifted in
- speakerthe past few years. But I think it's
- speakergood to capture the history of the
- speakerchurch in our stories of the
- speakertime. And the
- speakerstruggle still goes on.
- speakerAnd there are people who will not be
- speakerapproved by their churches or their
- speakerpresbyteries for ordination because
- speakerof their identities.
- speakerAnd I think it's important to have
- speakerOut of Order because
- speakerit does show that there are other
- speakerways of doing it and that you can,
- speakerif you stay persistent
- speakerin this church, that you
- speakercan find support in there. There's a
- speakercommunity out there of people who
- speakerknow how to love and support you.
- speakerAnd so I'm
- speakergrateful for Out of Order and all
- speakerthe folks who were involved. It
- speakerfeels like a small,
- speakernot a clique, but a small subset to
- speakerbe captured in history and
- speakerin the
- speakerdenomination.
- speakerWell I think that was all that we had.
- speakerIs there anything else you want to add?
- speakerI don't know. Is there anything you feel is missing?
- speakerYou know one question I was just
- speakerwondering myself do you find
- speakeryourself in a position where you're
- speakerkind of mentoring the next
- speakergeneration?
- speakerI don't. Well
- speakerwhich next generation. I
- speakerfeel that like the experience of
- speakertheological education right
- speakernow is vastly different than what I
- speakerwent through. I finished in 96.
- speakerThis is 2019 now. The way
- speakerthat we talk about
- speakerinclusion and exclusion
- speakerin the structure and theology
- speakerof the church is far more advanced
- speakerthan what I got when I was at
- speakerPrinceton Seminary.
- speakerAnd so I feel like there's a
- speakergeneration of seminarians
- speakerand people who are feeling called to
- speakerministry, who are talking about
- speakerthe church's history of repression
- speakerin a way that I didn't get
- speakerwhen I was there. I mean, maybe
- speakerglimpses of it, but now whole scale.
- speakerIt feels like we're in a different
- speakerplace.
- speakerOne experience I did have recently
- speakertalking about the next generation is
- speakerthat on National Coming Out Day
- speakerI was invited to be
- speakeron a panel at a public
- speakerschool in Brooklyn.
- speakerThere were four of us
- speakerand I was the only
- speakerclergy or church identified person
- speakeron the panel.
- speakerAnd to be able to
- speakersay to these
- speakermiddle school and high schoolers
- speakerthat I represent a church
- speakeror denomination, but also a God
- speakerwho, regardless of what society
- speakersays, loves you, feels like
- speakerthat's that's a powerful statement.
- speakerThat loves you as
- speakeryou are and your uniqueness
- speakerand your uncertainties and doubts
- speakerright now and in the way that you're
- speakerforming yourself that
- speakerGod is with you and any religious
- speakerwords of hate
- speakeror violence against you
- speakereither your identity or your
- speakerbody that is not God's
- speakergrace. That's not how God views
- speakeryou.
- speakerAnd had I been
- speaker13 and heard that
- speakerI think it may have shifted
- speakermy perspective at that point
- speakerof
- speakerthose years of self-loathing
- speakerthat I sat with
- speakerand those points of self-loathing
- speakerthat still come back today.
- speakerIt just, you know, those messages of
- speakernot being good enough or
- speakernot feeling safe
- speakeras an as an out man.
- speakerI
- speakershould also talk about my husband.
- speakerI hadn't thought about that.
- speakerSo I got married in
- speakerMay of this year, May 25th.
- speakerMy husband Jason and I got married
- speakerat Riverside.
- speakerWe met.
- speakerI moved to New York in
- speakerFebruary of 2016 and he and I met
- speakerin November 2016.
- speakerSo we just had the third anniversary
- speakerof our first date.
- speakerJust last week.
- speakerAnd
- speakerit's great.
- speakerI can.
- speakerI feel so blessed by
- speakermy life.
- speakerIt hasn't been necessarily easy, but
- speakerI feel like God has supported me
- speakerthrough so many
- speakerdifficult and hurtful
- speakerexperiences
- speakerand the joy
- speakerof having a partner
- speakerwho stands with me,
- speakerwho affirms me in a ministry, who
- speakerspeaks God's grace
- speakerand challenge to me
- speakersometimes when I don't want to hear
- speakerit.
- speakerAlso, I stood for co-moderator
- speakerand Jason was significant in that.
- speakerI
- speakergot a call whenever that was.
- speakerI think that October before
- speakerthe last G.A.,
- speakermy friend Eliana Maxim with whom I
- speakerstood, called and said that she'd been
- speakerin this process of
- speakerbeing approached, being encouraged
- speakerto stand, her
- speakerprocess of saying, no, I don't want
- speakerto do this.
- speakerBut through her own personal
- speakerdiscernment, felt like she did feel
- speakercalled to stand.
- speakerAnd that
- speakerin her discernment, she felt like I
- speakerwas supposed to stand with her.
- speakerAnd as I remember, it was one
- speakermorning I was on the way to church
- speakerand
- speakerit was very thoughtful.
- speakerAnd oh, that's really great that you
- speakerthought of me and really humbled.
- speakerAnd I was like oh I'll pray about this, knowing good and well that I
- speakerreally did not mean that.
- speakerI was like, yeah, I'll pray about
- speakerthat. Eliana. Yeah, I'm going to.
- speakerBecause
- speakerI never saw myself standing
- speakerfor co-moderator. I didn't feel like
- speakerI necessarily had the skills to do
- speakerit. I didn't feel like
- speakerit was something that I wanted to
- speakerdo.
- speakerAnd
- speakeryeah, like it just didn't fit in my
- speakerlife, period.
- speakerAnd then I went to a community
- speakerorganizing training that was
- speakersponsored by NEXT Church.
- speakerI'm on the National Strategy Team
- speakerfor NEXT Church and
- speakerI was at the community
- speakerorganizing training for the next
- speakerweek.
- speakerSo that Monday, so say I talked to Eliana on Thursday, that
- speakerMonday was training in Baltimore
- speakerand said, I saw the two
- speakerco-moderators so Denise Anderson
- speakerand Jan Edmondson were both
- speakerthere. And I ran into Jan
- speakerthat morning and she's like, "Hey,
- speakerI'm praying for you." I thought that
- speakeris so awesome. The co-moderators of
- speakerthe denomination are praying for me.
- speakerShe's like, "Yeah, I talked to
- speakerEliana." I was like, oh,
- speakergosh, that thing.
- speakerI wasn't.
- speakerOh, so other people are praying
- speakerabout this? Dang it,
- speakerother people know about this.
- speakerI thought this was just between me
- speakerand Eliana.
- speakerAnd
- speakernow so she said that she was praying
- speakerabout it. And so I was like, oh,
- speakerwell, if other people are praying,
- speakerthen I actually have to do this
- speakerand went through my own time of
- speakerprayer. And like I said,
- speakeroh, my God, this is great
- speakeropportunity, but I really don't feel
- speakercalled to it. I have enough stuff
- speakergoing on in my church and life and
- speakerat that point, I don't know if
- speakerwe were engaged yet.
- speakerI can't recall where we were.
- speakerYeah, no, we were engaged
- speakerand
- speakerit just didn't fit in my life.
- speakerAnd so I was
- speakerI talked at length to Eliana and I
- speakerwas like well, no,
- speakerand she's like, you need to pray
- speakermore.
- speakerAnd then I
- speakertalked I was meeting with a coach
- speakerat that point who's also clergy and
- speakermember in this Presbytery.
- speakerAnd we were walking just not
- speakertoo far away from here in Riverside
- speakerPark. And she said, "So what
- speakerdo you hear?"
- speakerI was like, well, I don't want to do
- speakerit. She's like, "What do you hear?"
- speakerI was like I don't wanna do it. She's
- speakerlike, "Well that's not are you
- speakercalled to it or not?"
- speakerAnd so I went
- speakerback and I think
- speakerit was that night I went home and
- speakerwas talking to Jason
- speakerabout it.
- speakerAnd
- speakerJason's Quaker and so call
- speakerlanguage isn't something that he
- speakeroften uses.
- speakerBut I was
- speakertelling him of my struggle and I'm
- speakernot sure about it and he's like,
- speaker"Well, your called to do this."
- speakerAnd I was like, "You don't know me!"
- speakerAnd that was. Yeah.
- speakerAnd
- speakerand I did I felt that like
- speakerhow dare you say that, you don't
- speakeruse my language against me.
- speakerBut there was something about him
- speakerstanding with me and
- speakersaying that I will support
- speakeryou through this and that God is
- speakergoing to support you through this.
- speakerIt was
- speakersort of like the final
- speakerthe final sort of
- speakerstraw.
- speakerIt's like the straw that broke the
- speakercamel's back in the sense that
- speakerthis man, who I know loves
- speakerme and I love him, feels that I
- speakerdo have the gifts to do it and
- speakerand maybe in there are ways that I
- speakerdon't, that I
- speakerhave a need,
- speakerbut that God would supply that need.
- speakerAnd so he was he's been a
- speakergreat partner in me
- speakergrowing and working through my
- speakerinsecurities, my doubts and
- speakerministry.
- speakerAnd so I'm really grateful for Jason
- speakerMcGill, my husband.
- speakerWell, since you did mention it, I
- speakerwill bring it up. The NEXT Church
- speakerLeadership Team. Can you talk a little
- speakerbit more about what that is and what
- speakeryour role is?
- speakerYeah. So I've been involved with
- speakerNEXT church for about
- speakerfour years now.
- speakerI think I've already completed one
- speakerterm on our strategy team and now
- speakerinto another.
- speakerAnd also so it's around this time
- speakerthat I was getting more involved
- speakerwith the well, getting back involved
- speakerwith the denomination, I went
- speakerto a NEXT church gathering
- speakerin Chicago.
- speakerAnd
- speakerI struggled there.
- speakerI'd been working in public health
- speakerand going to conferences.
- speakerI was doing HIV prevention
- speakerwork and education
- speakerin communities most
- speakerdisproportionately impacted by the
- speakervirus. So people
- speakerof color, African Americans,
- speakerLatinos, Native American
- speakercommunities, transgender
- speakercommunities, women and folks
- speakerliving in and around poverty.
- speakerSo that had been my professional
- speakerlife for like four years
- speakerat that point and working
- speakerin HIV as a whole for like almost
- speakera decade before that.
- speakerAnd then I went to the national
- speakergathering for NEXT, and
- speakerit was my first entree back into
- speakerthe denomination, the PC(USA)
- speakerat the national level. And
- speakerI think of a conference of five to
- speakersix hundred people that were
- speakerprobably three
- speakeror four African American men,
- speakerclergy who were there
- speakerand there were more women, but I
- speakermean, there were still I'd say less
- speakerthan 20 of us total.
- speakerAnd it was quite
- speakerdisappointing that
- speakerit felt like my church
- speakerwas less
- speakerinvested and interested in issues
- speakerof racial justice than
- speakermy secular job was.
- speakerAnd I expressed some of my
- speakerchallenges around that and
- speakerReverend Jessica Tate is the
- speakerdirector for NEXT church and
- speakerI was in D.C.
- speakerat some point and she reached
- speakerout to me and invited me
- speakerto coffee and to talk
- speakerabout, you know,
- speakerwhat was my experience like it at
- speakerthe gathering in Chicago and ways
- speakerthat I would like to see NEXT church
- speakerchange
- speakeras it relates to racial justice
- speakerand I think queer justice and
- speakereconomic justice at the same time.
- speakerAnd yeah,
- speakershe tricked me.
- speakerShe got me.
- speakerWe had a great conversation and
- speakerI think in some way she agreed with
- speakermy analysis, my evaluation of
- speakerwhere the church was
- speakerand felt like
- speakermy critique was valid.
- speakerAnd that because of that,
- speakerthere's something that I could offer
- speakeras we were to move forward and grow.
- speakerAnd so I think I
- speakercame on the strategy team, the
- speakernext gathering, which
- speakerwas in Atlanta,
- speakerand I've been involved ever since.
- speakerOne of the things I'm most proud of
- speakerwas taking part in the Sarasota
- speakerstatement, which
- speakerwas a confessional statement that
- speakerwas written by a group
- speakerof six or eight of us in Sarasota.
- speakerIn the
- speakerJanuary of 2017,
- speakergiven the events of the
- speakerlast national election
- speakerfor the presidency, feels like
- speakerthe church and the nation have
- speakerbecome very divided
- speakerwhere God wouldn't desire it, so the Sarasota
- speakerstatement is I mean,
- speakerit's not a perfect statement,
- speakerbut it came out of a time where
- speakerthose of us who were there were
- speakerstriving to add voice
- speakerto some of the pains and the
- speakerstruggles that we're experiencing
- speakeraround nationalism
- speakerand tribalism.
- speakerAnd the way that
- speakerthe gospel has been used, the gospel
- speakerof Jesus Christ has been used to
- speakerexclude and demonize people
- speakerand to keep people oppressed.
- speakerI mean, like systematically,
- speakerstructurally, the way that
- speakerracism was used
- speakerin the church and in society
- speakeras a whole. And to try to put words
- speakerto that so that our denomination
- speakerhas
- speakersome talking points and a place to
- speakerstruggle to read and study
- speakerand to figure out how do we move
- speakerforward. And so that's one of the
- speakerthings that I'm really proud to
- speakerhave been able to take part in through NEXT.
- speakerAnd we are
- speakerwe're still struggling to do
- speakerthe work of justice and to really
- speakerchange our institutional structure
- speakeraround oppression as a whole.
- speakerIt's a lot of work.
- speakerAnd we
- speakerhave hard times on a regular basis.
- speakerBut I'm grateful for
- speakermy colleagues in ministry who are
- speakerwilling to to listen
- speakerand the people who are willing to
- speakerspeak their voices
- speakerand to struggle and to sit with
- speakerdifficulty, because it does feel
- speakerlike in this place we are
- speakerbirthing a new experience of
- speakerthe church.
- speakerThe next experience of the church.
- speakerAnd
- speakerI do like I appreciate the
- speakername NEXT church because
- speakerwe never fully get there.
- speakerIt's not NOW church, it's the
- speakerchurch we're growing into
- speakerand we're still being shaped by
- speakerGod and the teachings of Jesus
- speakerevery day.
- speakerSo as I talk about not necessarily
- speakerlike a mentor, but a person who's
- speakerbeen a dear friend to me since
- speakerI moved to New York and significant
- speakerin my life is Fred Davie,
- speakerwho is an out
- speakergay Presbyterian man,
- speakerAfrican American Presbyterian
- speakerpastor, and he's
- speakerthe reason I'm married
- speakerin large part.
- speakerJason, my fiancee
- speakeror at that point was not.
- speakerJason,
- speakermy husband, I'd written
- speakerhim on OkCupid. This is really way too, we'll figure out if you need this
- speakeror not.
- speakerSo Jason, I'd written
- speakerhim on OkCupid
- speakerand he wrote me back, but I hadn't
- speakergone for a couple of weeks.
- speakerAnd
- speakerduring that time he stalked me
- speakerbecause he had my name that I'd
- speakerworked in HIV.
- speakerAnd, yeah I don't know. This is not even useful.
- speakerYeah it is, keep going.
- speakerIs it, really?
- speakerWe'll listen to you, yeah.
- speakerSo he had my name that I worked in
- speakerHIV and had lived in
- speakerSeattle.
- speakerAnd he put those three pieces
- speakertogether
- speakerin the Google machine.
- speakerAnd my bio at
- speakerRiverside Church came up at that
- speakerpoint.
- speakerAnd
- speakerhe's like, that's not that guy.
- speakerBut it was me.
- speakerAnd through those three
- speakerpieces was able to figure out, well,
- speakerhe's friends with Fred Davie.
- speakerFred was or is
- speakerthe vice president at Union
- speakerTheological Seminary.
- speakerOut gay Presbyterian pastor,
- speakerAfrican American.
- speakerAnd so Jason called
- speakerFred and said, well, they've got to
- speakerknow each other.
- speakerAnd Fred and I had just had lunch.
- speakerHe'd been a friend to
- speakerme since I arrived in New York.
- speakerAnd
- speakerJason called him, talked to him.
- speakerAnd Fred
- speakergave me a call and said, hey,
- speakerthere's this guy who
- speakerwants to talk to you.
- speakerAnd I was like no, that's
- speakerunappealing. Why would I do that?
- speakerSomeone's stalking me.
- speakerNo.
- speakerHe was like, well, you wrote him.
- speakerAnd I was like I didn't write
- speakeranybody.
- speakerAnd he was like OkCupid?
- speakerAnd I was like, yeah,
- speakerthere's this guy.
- speakerAnd so he's like, he's
- speakera good guy. You should talk to him.
- speakerAnd I was like, well, because you
- speakersay so, Fred, I will
- speakergive him a call, but I will not be
- speakernice to him. No, I didn't say that.
- speakerBut then Jason and
- speakerI talked the next night and
- speakerthen we had our first date the
- speakerfollowing Sunday.
- speakerAnd yeah, we've been together ever
- speakersince. But Fred Davie has been
- speakera significant part of my life.
- speakerAnd he performed our wedding
- speakerceremony, he and Michael Livingston.
- speakerAnd so it was great to be able to
- speakerrecognize him. And that I mean
- speakerFred is doing tremendous work
- speakerat Union and sort of a
- speakerbroader political system here in New
- speakerYork, overseeing
- speakerthe citizens review board with the
- speakerpolice department and
- speakerI'm grateful for him in the way
- speakerthat his ministry
- speakeris not just in the congregational
- speakercontext, but
- speakerhe's just like another example of
- speakerthe way queer people are serving the
- speakerchurch and maybe not always in in
- speakerthe confines of a church,
- speakerbut leading us for justice, too.
- speakerAnd so I'm grateful for Fred Davie.