Tim Hart-Andersen oral history, 2019.

Primary tabs

View (active tab)

Transcript

speaker
This is Elizabeth Wittrig interviewing Tim Hart-Andersen on April 30th 2019.
speaker
Tim if you want to go ahead and start by saying when and where you were
speaker
born.
speaker
I was born in Ellsworth Kansas in
speaker
April of 1953. 66 years ago.
speaker
And do you want to talk about any religious influences that you had growing up?
speaker
While I was born into a religious family.
speaker
My dad was a pastor. I was born in Ellsworth and
speaker
my dad served a church there and then started a new church in Wichitia.
speaker
I remember that better than I do.
speaker
The Ellsworth days and then from Wichita we went to La Grange Illinois outside Chicago
speaker
where he was a pastor of a large church their First Baptist Church in
speaker
La Grange. So I grew up in the Presbyterian Church from the
speaker
earliest days and never left the church.
speaker
Did you feel an early call to ministry?
speaker
My dad certainly did for me.
speaker
And that was one of my I guess I would say one
speaker
of my spiritual struggles was knowing if the call the ministry was mine
speaker
or my dad's for me. My dad was a big man.
speaker
6'6" and exuded energy.
speaker
The extrovert scale had to be extended for my dad.
speaker
He was just very present and a big
speaker
persona lovely man.
speaker
And when I was about ten he had talked to me so often
speaker
about maybe going into ministry I sent him a note in the offering plate that said Dad
speaker
please stop talking to me about being a minister and to his credit he
speaker
did. And when I was about 25 I
speaker
finally made the decision to go to seminary and
speaker
he and my mother wrote me a letter that arrived
speaker
four days after I decided on my own.
speaker
So I knew it was my sense of call to go to seminary.
speaker
If I'd gotten that letter before that I don't know if I would have made the same
speaker
decision. But when I went to McCormick Seminary in Chicago where my father had gone and
speaker
met on the first day the woman who would become my wife
speaker
Beth Hart. Whose father also went to McCormick Seminary and whose brother went to
speaker
McCormick the next year and whose sister-in-law went to McCormick so we're a McCormick
speaker
family. Our daughter is now at Austin Seminary because we're a McCormick
speaker
family and she had to have her own sort of independence and
speaker
I don't blame her. She needed to do with her dad and mom what I did with my parents.
speaker
So I started ministry in Southern
speaker
California in Anaheim
speaker
at the presbytery of Los Ranchos. I was an Associate Presbytery Executive in stewardship
speaker
and mission. Raising money and starting new churches, buying property, and
speaker
housing racial ethnic churches. I think we raised ten million dollars over six years
speaker
and housed I think 15 or 16 different churches.
speaker
Indonesian, Vietnamese, Taiwanese, Chinese, Laotian,
speaker
lots of Latinx churches.
speaker
So very exciting time in Southern California which is an extremely
speaker
conservative part of the Presbyterian Church.
speaker
And that was in the 80s late 80s.
speaker
In 1990 I was called to San Francisco
speaker
which is a different theological environment from Southern California.
speaker
I was called to serve Old First Church which is the
speaker
oldest Protestant church in California on Sacramento downtown in the
speaker
city there and I remember the interview.
speaker
I was there it was in Southern California being interviewed on the phone
speaker
by the committee from San Francisco and they asked me this is in 19
speaker
would have been 1998 during the interview and asked me where do
speaker
you stand on the ordination of gays and lesbians which was
speaker
an issue but really hadn't been the way it would be a few
speaker
years later when Amendment B was passed.
speaker
And I told them that I supported the denomination's
speaker
position which was the definitive guidance position
speaker
from 1978.
speaker
In other words excluding gays and lesbians from the denomination.
speaker
And when I told them that I said to myself well that's the last I'll hear from
speaker
that church assuming a church in San Francisco would have
speaker
some feelings about that that were different from mine.
speaker
To my surprise they called me anyway.
speaker
And then thus began a journey.
speaker
That really changed me.
speaker
Particularly in regards to the question of ordination and eventually
speaker
marriage and full inclusion.
speaker
And it was for me, excuse me, a
speaker
pastoral journey.
speaker
This was in the 90s in San Francisco and
speaker
that was the height of the AIDS crisis.
speaker
I remember the Bay Area Reporter which was a gay community's
speaker
newspaper every week would publish photos and bios of the
speaker
men who died mostly young men and there were usually
speaker
50 or 75 every week.
speaker
A lot of death in the gay community.
speaker
And it touched our congregation at one point.
speaker
I was doing the math and estimating I think about 10 percent of our congregation was HIV
speaker
positive or living with AIDS. Full blown AIDS.
speaker
We lost a lot of young men
speaker
and my ministry was deeply affected by that as a pastor
speaker
to those young men. And the
speaker
whole congregation, we spent a lot of time
speaker
with people who were dying many of whom were cut off from their families.
speaker
I can remember only one young man whose family
speaker
showed up and walked with him and us through his death but everyone
speaker
else the other all the other church members who were dying we
speaker
stood vigil with them sometimes for five days, sometimes a week, sometimes two
speaker
weeks round the clock and we discovered as we did that we
speaker
being our members of our church we discovered that there was a lot of love in the
speaker
community and families of choice not of birth.
speaker
We didn't really know much about many of us and
speaker
that experience affected me as the pastor doing those memorial services and
speaker
witnessing the love in the community and the faithful service of these church
speaker
members some of whom were elders and deacons.
speaker
I remember
speaker
a gentleman by the name of Zach Long graduate of Monttreat.
speaker
No, graduate of Davidson I'm sorry.
speaker
Davidson. And he had been at Montreat. So he was a southerner.
speaker
A southeastern person and was a very faithful
speaker
member of our church. Chair of our organ committee, involved in music,
speaker
and was an elder on session.
speaker
Very popular terrific leader.
speaker
Also very popular and a good leader in the gay community.
speaker
He developed HIV and then began living with
speaker
AIDS and I called on him about once a week in the last many months of his
speaker
life and he would sit down with me every so
speaker
often. But toward the end he would open the door crawling on his knees.
speaker
He couldn't stand any longer and he taught me a lot.
speaker
He died.
speaker
I think August and in June two months before that he served as the
speaker
Grand Marshal of the Pride parade in San Francisco.
speaker
So there was our
speaker
Presbyterian elder
speaker
being a leader
speaker
in the community and in the congregation.
speaker
Another name I would cite I guess Hugh
speaker
and Richard. A couple. Richard's
speaker
a dentist. Hugh was a cop. 30 years as a
speaker
homicide detective.
speaker
And I met him at Zach's memorial service.
speaker
And he introduced himself to me and I remembered his name and
speaker
when he showed up two weeks later I greeted him by name.
speaker
Turns out he was a cradle Presbyterian himself.
speaker
Growing up in Oregon and left the church when he came out because the church
speaker
wasn't welcoming to him and he'd been away from the church decades
speaker
and Zach's death brought him back.
speaker
And he became a deacon in our church.
speaker
And Richard his partner became an Elder.
speaker
Again active leaders in our church.
speaker
And that was that pastoral journey I took
speaker
with people like that with Richard and Hugh, Zach, and Stewart, and Dwayne, and Lewis,
speaker
and all these
speaker
mostly young men. We
speaker
having had this experience in our congregation in the early 90s by
speaker
the time Albuquerque came along in 96 as
speaker
a community our session our leaders and certainly as
speaker
a pastor we were convinced that these
speaker
individuals who happen to be gay who
speaker
were very faithful and terrific leaders ought to be allowed to
speaker
lead in the church.
speaker
I was a commissioner to the 96 assembly in Albuquerque and I
speaker
went to that assembly bearing
speaker
I guess hopes of my congregation that
speaker
helped the church reject the
speaker
proposed exclusion of gays and lesbians from ordination.
speaker
Actually Hugh who was a deacon at the time
speaker
wrote a testimony he was planning to testify before the committee.
speaker
Very careful preparation of this.
speaker
Rehearsed it.
speaker
Went over it with me and with a few others including Pam Byers.
speaker
And the Albuquerque assembly
speaker
happened and about two days before the assembly one
speaker
of the older women in church who whom he
speaker
was assigned to as a deacon became suddenly quite ill and was in the hospital.
speaker
So Hugh decided to stay
speaker
and miss the assembly in Albuquerque and never gave his testimony.
speaker
Because he was
speaker
a faithful Deacon.
speaker
So.
speaker
The irony of that was not lost on many of us.
speaker
I got up and rather than
speaker
read his prepared statement told his story.
speaker
That he wasn't there because he was back home being the deacon
speaker
that the church didn't want him to be.
speaker
So anyway the whole thing was quite
speaker
obviously still has quite an effect.
speaker
So there we were in Albuquerque.
speaker
I was assigned to the committee and I don't know what it was called but it was a
speaker
social justice committee and it received a
speaker
an overture I forget from where but an overture that proposed that the
speaker
church affirm full civil legal human rights for gays
speaker
and lesbians in the social world and in this political sphere
speaker
and I was on that committee and we
speaker
passed that in our committee and passed it at the assembly.
speaker
So we all remember Albuquerque as the assembly that
speaker
looked internally and did this damaging work to our gay and lesbian friends and members,
speaker
but looked externally to this world around us the social
speaker
world and said that we should, again the irony of this is not lost
speaker
on many of us, that we should support the extension of full legal
speaker
civil rights for gays and lesbians and in the social and political
speaker
you know things like allowing gay partners to visit people
speaker
in the hospital etc.
speaker
employment discrimination. All of that was we took a firm stance as the assembly
speaker
that same year that we passed Amendment B.
speaker
Anyway we passed B.
speaker
G-6.0106b. And I
speaker
came home to San Francisco and we were upset.
speaker
And first job for me was to
speaker
as a pastor work with those who were deeply wounded
speaker
by the church's decision because we had in our own life
speaker
kind of gotten over the question of should these loving
speaker
faithful people who happen to be gay serve as leaders or not.
speaker
We said yes of course they should. So here was the church saying no they shouldn't.
speaker
And they couldn't.
speaker
So my first job was to respond pastorally to them.
speaker
We lost a few people but we worked very hard at keeping
speaker
people in the church and not just our gay members but we awesome
speaker
straight folks who were appalled that the national
speaker
denomination would take a position that would have such impact on us locally.
speaker
And in our churches located in the Polk Gulch
speaker
area which I mean everybody knows about the Castro in San Francisco.
speaker
The Polk Gulch area was the Castro before the Castro.
speaker
And mostly older gay men.
speaker
We were in a wonderful community.
speaker
But our our ministry was deeply affected by this because
speaker
it was in the news. It was broadcast
speaker
through the media that the Presbyterian church now were excluding gays and lesbians and
speaker
it sort of directly affected our ability to invite new
speaker
people into our church from the neighborhood or from the city.
speaker
We had to get over a few things that the denomination had said
speaker
and in that action so we
speaker
were determined to oppose it and to change it. And we organized.
speaker
We started organizing. And I'm kind of an organizing kind
speaker
of person. When I was in seminary I organized there was I think seven
speaker
years in Chicago I organized a student movement among the seminaries.
speaker
The World Council of Churches met in Vancouver in 83 and I organized
speaker
a vast action international student gathering at the assembly.
speaker
I'm just naturally drawn to that kind of stuff.
speaker
So we jumped into it. We created wrote a covenant of dissent.
speaker
I think there were probably three principal covenants of dissent written around the
speaker
country and they were disseminated and we began
speaker
inviting other congregations not just in our presbytery but across
speaker
the country to join us in dissenting. Stating publicly that we were dissenting
speaker
from the action and opposed to it and that
speaker
we were going to keep our doors open.
speaker
Basically we
speaker
worked in a kind of I would say a haphazard way, not
speaker
in an organized strategic way to defeat B.
speaker
And we didn't have any national network or organization to respond.
speaker
There were of course there was Presbyterians for Lesbian and Gay Concerns people.
speaker
PLGC. And More Light
speaker
had emerged by then. More Light Presbyterians was trying
speaker
to do what they could but many of us weren't looped into that network.
speaker
So amendment B was
speaker
approved in the presbyteries and by the time we knew it was approved it
speaker
was too late to propose alternative overtures with a deadline
speaker
before G.A. because we all assumed it would go down in flames and
speaker
it didn't. And that's when we
speaker
came up with the plan to in effect hijack an overture that
speaker
was coming in to the assembly that would make it more stringent not more
speaker
exclusive. Rather than soften it changing chastity to celibacy because
speaker
that was one of the words we were using in our
speaker
dissent declaring that the church had used the word chastity
speaker
and in other ways through its history in our confessional
speaker
documents declaring that leaders in the church should
speaker
be chaste. So the church had already decided that we should be chaste and
speaker
we could certainly have chaste gay leaders.
speaker
So we were being quite clever to get around this and others communities
speaker
wanted to make clear that we were excluding
speaker
gays and lesbians at least those who were not celibate.
speaker
So we convened a group
speaker
in San Francisco Presbyterian.
speaker
Met many times.
speaker
And faculty member from San Francisco Seminary
speaker
named Lou Mudge who had been with the dean of McCormick when I was at McCormick and was a
speaker
good friend was in those meetings and he proposed that we take
speaker
the community's overture that had celibacy and
speaker
insert it was fidelity and chastity and they were going to say fidelity and
speaker
celibacy and we proposed to leave it exactly as it was except
speaker
insert integrity there instead.
speaker
And then we
speaker
of laid out his plan that Pam Byers and I would
speaker
go to the 97 assembly on behalf of this group in Syracuse.
speaker
San Francisco group with his attempt to change the community's overture
speaker
and Laird Stuart who was in San Francisco a part of our group was chair of that committee
speaker
and he was a very fair man.
speaker
A man of great integrity and honesty and a gentle soul.
speaker
He was the right person to lead that group. And
speaker
we worked with commissioners Pam and I on that committee and they wanted
speaker
to do something and we had a suggestion and they thought it was a good idea.
speaker
They managed to change the overture that had come from the community presbtyery and thus
speaker
the assembly was
speaker
happy to endorse it. It was it was passed.
speaker
It passed from the assembly and we knew then that we needed to organize and
speaker
I know I've told elsewhere the story of my convening a group in the basement of the
speaker
Syracuse assembly.
speaker
It was Tuesday night that we knew what the committee decided
speaker
and by Wednesday sort of at the assembly back
speaker
then Wednesdays were free mornings, the commissioners were supposed to be reading all the
speaker
business. So those of us who weren't commissioners
speaker
could meet and I convened a group of about 12 or 15 people in
speaker
the basement of the Syracuse assembly hall and said to them this
speaker
has passed. Language that will soften B
speaker
and we need to organize this time like we never organized before.
speaker
Those of us who were not involved in any
speaker
activism already in LGBTQ issues.
speaker
So there were a number of people there who then
speaker
eventually became part of the Covenant Network.
speaker
There were a few who actually ended up leaving the church and I kind of invited
speaker
them thinking they would be a little more open minded about this.
speaker
They weren't. But there were seminary
speaker
presidents there.
speaker
And pastors of larger churches.
speaker
I was in a group, a peer group called the Community of Pastors which is about
speaker
25 larger Presbyterian churches across the country whose pastors meet
speaker
twice a year. My father started the group and
speaker
I was not in a large Presbyterian Church. Old First San Francisco was about 300 members
speaker
but by virtue of my father's leadership of the group I
speaker
was shoehorned into it. So I turned to that group for
speaker
help in starting to organize.
speaker
And then I after the assembly
speaker
there was interest in doing this. And after the assembly I wrote out a plan.
speaker
Worked with Dan Little who is retired but former
speaker
formerly the executive of the General Assembly Mission Council and
speaker
had been on the
speaker
McCormick Seminary board and by then I was on the board as well so we we were
speaker
collaborating.
speaker
And he was advising me on the plan to organize
speaker
and a key component
speaker
of the plan was to get the right leaders. Visible public leaders.
speaker
And it was John Buchanan who had presided over the Amendment B
speaker
assembly in Albuquerque and Bob Bohl a former moderator both of whom
speaker
had great stature and name recognition and were wonderful
speaker
pastors and solid leaders and right in the center
speaker
of the church which is where the strategy was to position this new
speaker
organized effort in the center because More Light and others were active on
speaker
more to the left. We wanted to make space in the center of the church to
speaker
attract maybe more moderate Presbyterians because we knew we didn't have the votes having
speaker
watched what happened to Amendment B. And John and Bob agreed
speaker
to lead the effort.
speaker
And John assigned John Wilkinson who was the Executive Associate
speaker
pastor there at Fourth Church Chicago to work with me.
speaker
I was still in San Francisco.
speaker
So this is the summer of 97. We had a meeting in August of 97
speaker
in Chicago and at that meeting the Covenant Network was born.
speaker
We wrote a Call to Covenant Community and John and Bob were declared
speaker
to be the co-moderators of the organization and the rest of
speaker
us who were there now constitute ourselves as the
speaker
I think we called ourselves the steering committee, but eventually by the time we had the
speaker
September gathering in Chicago we had morphed into the board of the
speaker
Covenant Network and we'd added probably another oh 8 or 10
speaker
individuals who were of
speaker
the same ilk. That is not recognized as activists
speaker
in the church for change but rather recognized as leaders in the church
speaker
in the denomination or in larger congregations or in seminaries.
speaker
And that's the group that convened a relatively small gathering.
speaker
It was our smallest national conference ever.
speaker
It was our first in Chicago at Fourth Church.
speaker
Probably 125 eople came.
speaker
That was the birth of the Covenant Network.
speaker
And it grew to be a very effective
speaker
part of the movement. Just part of the movement.
speaker
We worked with others who had been out a lot
speaker
much longer than we have.
speaker
And I think we all understood that each of us played a role in the kind of multifaceted
speaker
approach because More Light was more activist and more sort of out
speaker
there at the assemblies and witnessing in ways that we weren't.
speaker
That gave us the opportunity to present ourselves a bit more moderate.
speaker
And you know some people who may not want to go the activist route but
speaker
saw the wisdom of what we were doing we're drawn into a more positive
speaker
position toward gays and lesbians.
speaker
It took us a long time.
speaker
All of us working but it succeeded
speaker
I think because of our persistence. Our strategic thinking.
speaker
And the mobilization of a lot of people across the church and key to
speaker
that effort was our leader Pam Byers.
speaker
Pam was
speaker
an elder on our session on Old First and
speaker
chair of our Evangelism Committee.
speaker
When we came back from Albuquerque, she was in Albuquerque too.
speaker
We came back.
speaker
We really had a problem with evangelism. That is inviting people to come
speaker
into our church. Evangelism the root word in the Greek means
speaker
good news and there wasn't much good news for many in our community
speaker
in those days.
speaker
So Pam had a kind of very local interest in this as
speaker
a person drawing newcomers into the life of our congregation
speaker
really needed help from
speaker
the denomination that she wasn't getting.
speaker
So she was interested in changing it.
speaker
And Pam had a gay brother who was a Presbyterian
speaker
in Baltimore.
speaker
A church there.
speaker
We were close friends.
speaker
Pam and a small group of people at Old
speaker
First including my wife Beth.
speaker
We were part of a we called ourselves a festival worship committee
speaker
and we got together about once a month and designed creative wonderful art
speaker
film worship and so we were very close
speaker
to Pam and Jeff. My wife and I were a small group.
speaker
She had been a senior editor at Harper
speaker
within their religion section and had
speaker
been recruited by KQED to start excuse me start a
speaker
new publishing company in San Francisco.
speaker
That's our Public TV station and had
speaker
just taken that job maybe in January of 97 something like that within
speaker
that she hadn't been there a year yet and I said
speaker
Pam I think we need you to help us with this effort.
speaker
We're going to gather in Chicago and we need somebody
speaker
as a staff member. John and Bob Bohl.
speaker
John Buchanan, John Wilkinson, Bob Bohl and I had talked
speaker
about a need for someone to lead the group and I said I thought I knew who could
speaker
do this. And Pam graciously agreed to do it.
speaker
Had never done something quite like this before.
speaker
She proved to be quite adept at it.
speaker
She is a person who is I guess well
speaker
raised. Had good social graces and used those
speaker
graces very capably
speaker
to build relationships. That's what the network was. It was a set of relationships and
speaker
not only with people that agreed with us on ordination
speaker
but across the spectrum.
speaker
And Pam was fearless in doing
speaker
that. Going to any conference any gathering of Presbyterians and
speaker
representing with her smile and her gifts
speaker
of relationship building representing the Covenant Network position.
speaker
So our efforts began on that September gathering and
speaker
we scrambled a lot because the amendment was already out and starting to be voted on.
speaker
Amendment A came out of Syracuse and we were a bit behind
speaker
the eight ball on that and we had to build a network from scratch.
speaker
So we did and the vote didn't
speaker
go our way but the network was born.
speaker
So we had in the movement for inclusivity in the denomination, a
speaker
new group joined the groups that had been struggling for many years years
speaker
before us and we had a more powerful front
speaker
in the struggle and we all knew
speaker
the church would change eventually.
speaker
There was too much of theological and biblical and governance material
speaker
that made a good case for a
speaker
more inclusive position that we knew it would pass eventually.
speaker
We started out arguing mostly from
speaker
a governance angle, the polity angle saying that Amendment B is not good governance.
speaker
We don't adopt
speaker
such exclusive and really misguided language.
speaker
Our confessions
speaker
are subordinate to scripture and scripture is subordinate to our faith in Jesus Christ
speaker
and the amendment turned that on its head.
speaker
It used language we had in different ways.
speaker
Chastity we had used in other ways in our history and now it was abused
speaker
in a way that we didn't really understand.
speaker
It was mean spirited. I think it was done out of fear.
speaker
And the church is not at its best when it operates out of fear.
speaker
So we were convinced it was going to happen.
speaker
It was just a matter of when and how.
speaker
We argued a lot about whether we should go every assembly.
speaker
Or take more time and work in education.
speaker
And our efforts at conferences and
speaker
regional gatherings were really part of the commitment to educate the church, to help
speaker
the church learn more about biblical material, theological
speaker
witness.
speaker
We learned from More Light and That
speaker
All May Freely Serve and some of the wonderful leaders in that
speaker
part of the church that the polity argument
speaker
was eventually I mean it helped us build a network because it was it was a safe argument
speaker
to make.
speaker
It didn't have to really take a stand on justice for gays and lesbians.
speaker
You could support the removal of B and
speaker
still be someone who felt like gays and lesbians
speaker
should not be in leadership on the basis of polity alone.
speaker
So we started out with that argument and that allowed us to build a network.
speaker
Our strategy early on in the Covenant Network was based on polity
speaker
and intentionally so because
speaker
we didn't want to push what we called in our board
speaker
meetings the justice argument.
speaker
I'm embarrassed to say that because this in the end was about justice for gay
speaker
and lesbian folk and our church.
speaker
But we didn't think that that argument was being made very effectively
speaker
by More Light. So we wanted to distinguish ourselves to carve out a different
speaker
position in the church more in the center to make space for folks
speaker
who would be persuaded by the policy argument to come our direction basically.
speaker
We kept to that for many years.
speaker
When we got into legal battles we had the best legal team in the church working.
speaker
Doug Nave and Tim Cahn working on a legal argument.
speaker
But we knew there was a theological argument to be made
speaker
that everyone's created in the image of God and God calls
speaker
all people as our statement of faith says as God calls all men and women to serve
speaker
in the church.
speaker
And we knew there was a I guess I would call it a pastoral argument.
speaker
I mean I certainly knew that as a pastor of a church.
speaker
It was so evident to me and to our congregation
speaker
that God had gifted these individuals who happened to be gay for
speaker
service in the church. We didn't make those arguments at first.
speaker
We did put out some really good theological material, published some books, published
speaker
articles we wrote in journals.
speaker
And eventually we started moving toward the pastoral dimension
speaker
of the of the question because in the end it really was
speaker
obvious that this is about Bill and Linda, Sue, John.
speaker
It wasn't about theology or policy or legal
speaker
strategies. It was about human beings.
speaker
All of which were made in image of God and who were faithful people.
speaker
And that's something I would say we learned from More Light.
speaker
We learned from friends who had been at this a lot longer
speaker
and for whom this is more costly.
speaker
Many of them felt the call to ministry.
speaker
I think of Scott Anderson. I think of Janie Spahr. I think of Larry Lafontaine.
speaker
I think of Lisa Larges.
speaker
The list is long and
speaker
the language was not in the Book of Order
speaker
some abstract issue for them. It was about their own lives and their livelihoods
speaker
and their location.
speaker
And it was costly for them. It didn't really cost us.
speaker
We Covenant Network was a group that was fairly privileged at the start of this.
speaker
We were all white. We were all straight.
speaker
We did diversify pretty quickly
speaker
but even with the diversity that we brought in we were still pretty much
speaker
large church pastors who oh
speaker
didn't weren't risking a lot personally.
speaker
I mean some of us took heat.
speaker
But it wasn't the kind of personally
speaker
hurtful woundedness that
speaker
some of our friends were burying through these years.
speaker
I do remember one speech I made at the Covenant Network lunch where I
speaker
described myself as a I didn't use the word privilege but basically as a person
speaker
of privilege. A tall white straight male
speaker
and how strange it was for me to be on the losing end of so many votes and being in
speaker
a minority in the church. Basically it was first time I'd ever experienced that given
speaker
who I was and just by virtue of my being and I
speaker
said it was a strange sensation for me to be marginalized, to
speaker
be pushed to the margins by my own church. Afterwards Janie Spahr
speaker
came up to me and said
speaker
with her usual sort of energetic smile and warmth, Tim
speaker
welcome to the margins. Only we think of this as the
speaker
horizon.
speaker
And it was such a helpful reframing of what was going on.
speaker
Those excluded were going to be where the church was going to go.
speaker
Those who were had been pushed out by the church who were marginalized were
speaker
actually leading the way.
speaker
The future was that direction.
speaker
So really helpful from Janie.
speaker
So
speaker
my role in the Covenant Network was largely to
speaker
lead the strategic effort of the organization.
speaker
I was a chair of the strategy committee which meant basically
speaker
developing the means by which we
speaker
would get legislation sent to the General Assembly and then getting it passed through the
speaker
assembly. The method we developed in Syracuse
speaker
which was basically watching the committee at work or watching or coming
speaker
into the assembly having identified it in the committee that
speaker
was going to be dealing with our legislation. Identify the people who might be friendly
speaker
by virtue of the churches they come from or the Presbyteries or maybe we
speaker
know them somehow. And it was very hit or miss early on.
speaker
It got much more organized thanks to Tricia Dykers Koenig where we
speaker
had commissioners probably of the usual 600
speaker
or 700 commissioners 70 percent of them we had a
speaker
grading system. We knew if they were going to be favorable or negative or somewhere
speaker
in between. But early on it
speaker
was a matter of getting the assembly early, identifying the commissioners that we thought
speaker
would be supportive, meeting them as they came off the assembly floor, having
speaker
a drink with them, going to a bar or eventually
speaker
when we started having suites bringing them to the Covenant Network suite and
speaker
asking what it is they hoped would come out of their committee in the Assembly and out of
speaker
the Assembly and then because almost all the
speaker
commissioners are first time commissioners and they don't know how to put in motions and
speaker
suggest legislation etc.
speaker
how to work together and that's what we did.
speaker
We helped them develop motions or sometimes guided them in language
speaker
and then the process of creating a
speaker
floor movement during the debate.
speaker
We developed talking points with them to support whatever
speaker
their overtures were that they were bringing to the actions they were bringing.
speaker
And we know we would have often in our
speaker
these late night conversations six or eight sometimes 10
speaker
or 12 commissioners who were eager to network together and
speaker
grateful the Covenant Network brought them together otherwise they would never have
speaker
connected. And the assembly moves very quickly once it opens for business.
speaker
The committees move pretty quickly too. So that was my job.
speaker
Tricia then begin identifying commissioners.
speaker
My job was to work with them and build relationships and then in those
speaker
relationships help guide them as they needed help to
speaker
effective legislation and action for a more inclusive church.
speaker
We expanded that grew it
speaker
grew over the years to be quite a sophisticated operation.
speaker
I remember early on and probably in Syracuse in 97 maybe
speaker
it was in the next assembly in 98. In the assembly hotel
speaker
walking through there was an open door and I just walked into the room and
speaker
it turns out it was about oh probably three meeting
speaker
rooms connected. OPs.
speaker
It was their command center and they had computers, they had phones, they had dozens
speaker
of volunteers and strategists and people working the floor and
speaker
commissioners and it was like a command and control center on the right.
speaker
And you know when we saw that.
speaker
Pam was with me and when we saw that we were suddenly aware that
speaker
our operation needed to amp up a bit.
speaker
I remember also More Light early
speaker
on was doing some of these techniques. They had a walkie talkie system, headphones
speaker
or earpieces and so Covenant Network started
speaker
from scratch but built a very strong effective General Assembly organizing
speaker
efforts so we could get we tended to get almost everything we brought to assembly get
speaker
it through the assembly because we were well organized. Where we were weaker was in the
speaker
presbyteries. It's harder to organize nationally. So that was my job and the board
speaker
would gathered and at some point in the agenda I would present the
speaker
strategy from our committee which we would develop largely
speaker
by phone conference calls and then that board would either approve
speaker
it or tweak it. Generally not much.
speaker
We were really in the lead on this.
speaker
I eventually probably six or seven years into it
speaker
handed off that committee to Dave Colby who then became the
speaker
lead strategist for the network.
speaker
Although I was certainly involved my specialty was working at an assembly
speaker
and working with commissioners. That's where I felt that was most effective
speaker
in support of our efforts.
speaker
Our work was various assembly oriented. So it was sort of intense periods and then
speaker
we would stand down and then we would have the fall conference.
speaker
The conference is a really good vehicle for
speaker
building the network, meeting people, giving resources, encouraging people.
speaker
Were they well attended?
speaker
Yes they were well attended. We would have 400-500-600
speaker
people. Our largest conferences probably were six
speaker
or seven hundred.
speaker
They were big events in cities and there were it
speaker
took a lot of effort to organize those.
speaker
I didn't do that. That was Pam and Lou East.
speaker
You know we had to work with hotels and meals and so it was a big
speaker
job. But those were really good events.
speaker
People felt like this was the church they really longed for.
speaker
They had wonderful worship, great preachers and speakers and I
speaker
hope that we can in the PHS archives document who the speakers and preachers were
speaker
because those experiences really helped move the
speaker
church forward.
speaker
We had regional gatherings which I think were less effective but in some Presbyteries
speaker
where they were where the Covenant Network supporters were in a
speaker
minority it was really helpful to them to
speaker
gather to meet one another, know one another, worship, pray, study, plan together.
speaker
The Covenant Network became a lifeline particularly
speaker
for Presbyterians isolated in congregations, in hostile
speaker
territory in the denomination. So our efforts
speaker
on ordination which were internally focused took us
speaker
Covenant Network 15 years, but the whole denomination 40 years.
speaker
Fascinating to see how quickly the marriage change happened.
speaker
Which was which is an external question
speaker
more than an internal. It's not about our rules it's about I mean that to a certain
speaker
extent there is some whether we allow ministers to do this but or churches to host.
speaker
But really the real question was a civil one.
speaker
Will we in our civil society and our laws governing
speaker
the state allow same sex marriage
speaker
and we were engaged
speaker
in that struggle for three years.
speaker
Ordination completed in 2011 and 2014 the church
speaker
changed its mind.
speaker
Began in September of 97
speaker
that same month interestingly enough didn't realize it just looking at it now the
speaker
senior pastor of Westminster Church resigned suddenly in Minneapolis.
speaker
His name was Gordon Stewart. Very effective pastor had actually provided wonderful
speaker
leadership on the national level with a report some years before on
speaker
the nature of love.
speaker
It's called the Justice-Love report.
speaker
If you've heard about it. But it's a report that basically said love
speaker
is not love without justice, being just at the same
speaker
time.
speaker
He and an associate pastor here became involved.
speaker
They were both married. Their marriages were crumbling.
speaker
But they got involved with one another.
speaker
So they resigned abruptly in September 97.
speaker
And two years later.
speaker
In the summer of 99 I was elected pastor
speaker
here and began in November of 1980 here at Westminster Church Minneapolis.
speaker
One of the reasons they wanted me to come they explicitly said
speaker
this in the interview as kind of a screening question and this was their search
speaker
was happening in 97 when Amendment A was voted on.
speaker
And then in 98 when Amendment A had been defeated we were still living with B.
speaker
They wanted this church to provide leadership for inclusivity.
speaker
One of their pastors, associate pastors named Erwin Barron
speaker
came out as a gay man in 96
speaker
I think or 97. And resigned.
speaker
Partially because he didn't want to throw the church into turmoil but also because he
speaker
wanted to go to San Francisco to pursue a graduate degree.
speaker
I met him two weeks after he arrived in San Francisco and we immediately hired
speaker
him at first. So.
speaker
He still is connected to that church. Wonderful guy.
speaker
But he was involved in a major legal battle later on in the church.
speaker
But anyway so this congregation Westminster had started its
speaker
deal with what it means to have inclusive posture toward
speaker
ordained leaders and
speaker
had gay members in leadership.
speaker
So they wanted their next minister to help lead the congregation
speaker
locally and lead the denomination nationally.
speaker
So I kind of fit that bill because we were interviewing in 98 and the Covenant Network
speaker
was up and running. I was providing strategic direction.
speaker
You know. I had the idea to do this so that
speaker
they saw in me someone who could maybe help here.
speaker
And we did what many churches did across the denomination
speaker
in those early years.
speaker
96, 97, 98, 99 when we were trying to figure out how to live with this Amendment B thing.
speaker
That is study.
speaker
That's what Presbyterians do.
speaker
So we put together a task force here.
speaker
Called it the Amendment B Task Force, creative name, and
speaker
put people on to it we knew would be quite open to inclusivity and
speaker
ordaining gays and lesbians. There were some gay folk on the group in the group and
speaker
also people in it leaders whom we assumed would not be supportive.
speaker
So it was a mixed group and they spent probably a year.
speaker
So
speaker
our effort here at Westminster like in other congregations was to give
speaker
the church a chance to think together, consider together
speaker
how to respond to the reality of Amendment B.
speaker
It looked like we were going to have to live with it for a while.
speaker
And each congregation that was aware of gay and lesbian folk who were
speaker
potential leaders had to ask the question, do we let them lead
speaker
or not. Do we ordain them or not.
speaker
And many congregations like ours, like Westminster undertook studies
speaker
and it was helpful to look at the Biblical material.
speaker
We invited the congregation in to talk about that and we had sermons
speaker
about it. And helpful to think about the theological implications of
speaker
the kind of church that Amendment B was thrusting upon us
speaker
and also the polity argument. So we took a year doing in our local
speaker
context the kinds of things that were happening at the General Assembly level and
speaker
the end of that was our Session we
speaker
received recommendations from the Amendment B task force to
speaker
go ahead and nominate and elect and
speaker
ordain those who we knew to be gay and in openly gay
speaker
relationships.
speaker
So the way we did it was we said we will examine them for
speaker
office and we'll ask them is there anything in the church's constitution
speaker
not just these individuals but everybody who was being or doing anything that would
speaker
prohibit you from assuming office.
speaker
And we used what's called the interpretation strategy to get around B.
speaker
We interpreted B in a way there was leeway in B.
speaker
It was not cut and dry.
speaker
There was wiggle room and we got into that wiggle room and used it and
speaker
explained it to our incoming officers and we have a six
speaker
month preparation time from election to ordination.
speaker
So we had a lot of time to prepare those who were elected by the congregation to serve
speaker
in office and we never had someone say that they could not in
speaker
good conscience respond to the ordination questions and assume office
speaker
in the church. So the interpretation strategy, interpreting B to be
speaker
less stringent than those who approved it wanted it to be.
speaker
That strategy worked at Westminster and we we began electing
speaker
and ordaining and installing openly gay deacons and elders.
speaker
So it helped us live with B.
speaker
And then we put a lot of energy and funding we've helped fund the Covenant Network,
speaker
probably ten thousand dollars a year for many years.
speaker
So Westminster learned
speaker
like many congregations across the denomination learned to live with B
speaker
in spite of it. And refused to let it hinder our
speaker
work in terms of welcoming gays and lesbians into the life of the church
speaker
and into ordained leadership in the church if we felt God was calling
speaker
them to serve in that way.
speaker
We were one of the key supporters of the Covenant Network for many
speaker
many years and when the marriage amendment started getting
speaker
active in the church we were very strongly in support of that.
speaker
Our Session approved statements supporting marriage equality which we used
speaker
in this local statehouse. We lobbied in the state house.
speaker
We sent elders up to the Capitol to lobby for that.
speaker
And we've been we
speaker
wanted to be in the lead inclusively and we have been.
speaker
Our staff includes folks who are gay, lesbian, trans and we're very
speaker
pleased with with our staff team and where we are as a church and glad the denomination
speaker
has come around on this issue.

In collections

Details

Title: Tim Hart-Andersen oral history, 2019.
Description: Timothy Hart-Andersen is a Presbyterian minister, a founding Board Member of the Covenant Network of Presbyterians, and one of the initiators of the NEXT Church movement. He was ordained by the Presbytery of Los Ranchos in 1985, and took the pastorate at Old First Presbyterian Church (San Francisco, Calif.) in 1990. Since 1999, he has served as pastor of Westminster Presbyterian Church (Minneapolis, Minn.).
Creator: Hart-Andersen, Timothy. (interviewee)
Wittrig, Elizabeth L. (interviewer)
Date: 2019
April 30, 2019
Type of resource: moving image
Genre: oral histories
interviews
Form: born digital
video recordings
Extent: 1.27 GB (1 MP4 file)
Subject names: Covenant Network of Presbyterians.
Hart-Andersen, Timothy.
Topics: Homosexuality--Religious aspects--Presbyterian Church.
Ordination of gays.
Ordination of lesbians.
Geographic subjects: North and Central America--United States
Rights status: IN COPYRIGHT; http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Physical location: ARCHIVES 19-0505; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA
Related item: Covenant Network: The Early Years reunion records, 2019.--http://prestohost68.inmagic.com/Presto/content/Detail.aspx?ctID=Y2RiNWNk...
Identifier (local): 19-0505_CovenantNetwork_THA
PID (Persistent Identifier): islandora:153478

Pearl Digital Collections

You are here

Tim Hart-Andersen oral history, 2019.

Primary tabs

In collections

Bookmark

BookBags: