John Wilkinson oral history, 2019.

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All right. This is Elizabeth Wittrig interviewing John Wilkinson on
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June 2nd 2019.
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So John if you just to start by talking about how you became involved in the movement for
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LGBTQ inclusion?
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Sure. Well it's a great question I've been thinking about it a little bit.
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I think my first experience to a person
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was in college. A friend of mine a close college friend came out
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and that was my first experience. That would have been in 1985 or
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so and then I went to McCormick Seminary where there was
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an active gay and lesbian support group and I got to know those
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classmates and friends pretty well and then worked
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in a church in Chicago as a seminary student where the minister actually came out to me
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and that was a new experience for me.
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And then the first church I served in Chicago
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one of our musicians also came out to me.
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And I think that's all public so it's ok that I can say that.
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But those were you know having no real experiential basis for that.
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It didn't really cause me any
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kind of great consternation. But it was kind of an OK.
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Here's here's a step along the way and kind of both in my head and my heart that didn't
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feel like a big deal to me. And then when I went to Fourth Church in Chicago where I
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served for seven years we had an
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active study group and gay and lesbian support group.
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We did not declare ourselves to be a More Light congregation
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but my argument always was you know we were a 5,000 member church in
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Chicago we probably had as many gay or lesbian members as any congregation in the
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denomination. We just didn't know it and there many people working in law
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firms or banking situations in the loop and had to remain closeted.
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But in the church at least they could be out and I happened to be the one that worked
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with that support group and we had a kind of weekly prayer gathering so it just my
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experience and my thinking about that just kept evolving and evolving and it
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never really hit a bump that I said well what does this mean or what you know what I
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think about this it just felt kind of pretty much a natural trajectory.
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And then you know
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because Fourth Church was active denominationally I
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became kind of involved in the ordination debates within the denomination kind of at
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a certain level. And then when my colleague John Buchanan ran for moderator I
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was very active in helping to organize that campaign and then
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John won. And then when G-6.0106b passed suddenly
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everything got amped up a lot. And we had this policy
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in the denomination. And I'm sure others have gone through the whole self affirmed,
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practicing and all those things up leading up to that authoritative interpretation but
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suddenly we had something in the Book of Order that we didn't like and
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that John as a former moderator and Bob Bohl as a former moderator
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said you know we're going to do something about this. The whole Covenant Network story
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happened and because
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I had a leadership role at Fourth Church and a leadership role with the General Assembly
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stuff I became kind of almost suddenly into
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that. Into the midst of the debate about legislation and
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change. So again it didn't take much for me to know what
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I thought or believed about that. I've thought about this a lot.
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I kind of enter the debate through the polity avenue.
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I mean from my point of view G-6.0106b was just dreadful Book of
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Order legislation because it didn't make sense.
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It was inconsistent. It didn't have a way to apply it.
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And then over time my
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understanding about why it was bad for all these other reasons in terms of justice and
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inclusively and hospitality and theology and
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biblical interpretation really took root. So it was that combination.
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And so it was that Fourth Church experience where I
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kind of got involved and then I came here Third Church in Rochester seven
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years later and Third Church was declared itself to be a More Light
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congregation in 1987 and still remains I think the largest More Light
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congregation for whatever that's worth.
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But but they had already been through that conversation about what it means.
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Rochester and Genesee Valley Presbytery was a different water
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to be swimming in. But I'd already kind of known where I was and they were pleased to
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call me here because of my Covenant Network background and then we kind of kept working
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away at things.
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So that's how I got involved.
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I think when I came here because there were
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so many more people out in our membership and in the presbytery it just
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really confirmed what I believed in my head about the legislation.
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But it put many more human faces and journeys and call
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stories into the into the context of this.
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And it was then that I really kind of was
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able to pull together. You know I'm a polity guy.
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My PhD dissertation is on the Book of Confessions.
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I teach polity a lot so I could make the case from that point of view why this
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was not a good thing. But then I could make the other case in terms of real life human
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people why they were being prohibited from serving fully
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in the biblical and theological discussions.
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So there you go.
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And what was your role in the Covenant Network?
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So the Covenant Network was
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founded out of the 1997 General Assembly in Syracuse
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and a legislative strategy
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to replace the words fidelity and chastity with fidelity and
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integrity passed in the General Assembly.
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My friend Tim Hart Andersen led that kind of legislative
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effort. And then at the end of that assembly a group of people got together.
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I had been at the assembly but I went back to Chicago to kind of tend to Fourth Church.
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But at the end of that assembly a small group got together and said we want to now
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organize something to to try to pass
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this piece of legislation to get fidelity and integrity
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into the Book of Order. So John Buchanan came back to Chicago
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and said I've got a project for you.
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Tim Hart Andersen and I began almost daily
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communications at that point.
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We didn't really have a kind of organizational theory about what we were going to do.
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We thought we could do this in a year.
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This was back when General Assemblies met every year, not every other year.
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We would win this legislative battle, get the Book of Order back on track and then move
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on to our thing. So Tim and I were kind of a team.
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I always like to think of him more strategically, legislatively.
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I was kind of more organizational, relational and we worked together on that.
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And in August we brought a group together in Chicago
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and then in September we did the same thing. We met in Chicago mostly at Fourth Church
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for that first few years.
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And I was in fact kind of moderated
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at the first meeting because there wasn't any kind of identified established leadership
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structure or people were just kind of came together.
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People who we knew who we thought would could make a difference.
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And then after a bit and I'm sure others have spoken about this a lot more we identified
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Pam Byers as our first executive director and so Pam and Tim and I
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began if not daily very regular calls several times
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a week in those first few years to kind of get the process going.
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And as we know it took a while and all those other meandering.
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So after a while I was then we kind of
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adopted a more kind of structure leadership model with co moderators and boards and terms
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and things like that.
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So I still had a Tim and I and Pam were still pretty much
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regularly in contact.
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We had added a few more people to that in terms of kind of a strategy committee within
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the leadership team. And then I just began a long term of
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board service.
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I think I think when certain I was on writing teams
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like when we did Call for Covenant Community I was on that writing team.
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I think that was one of our really good pieces of work.
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The nice thing about the early Covenant Network years is we had really good theologians.
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We had seminary leaders.
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We had really good preachers so our writing
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was good. Our communications was good.
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We we spent a lot of time wordsmithing maybe probably too much time but I spent a lot
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of time wordsmithing kind of every word and every sentence in every paragraph because
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we wanted to be clear and thoughtful about what we were saying.
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So I felt really privileged to be a part of those teams.
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I think at some point when there were
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I was able to contribute certain things in certain ways.
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I felt grateful for that.
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Could you talk a little bit about what it was like to work with Pam?
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Yes. So I didn't know Pam.
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We had the early
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another affinity group in the denomination
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had a model where an associate pastor of a large church
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served in that role but also served as the executive director of this
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affinity group. So maybe for three minutes or so we kicked around that idea
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and that would have been me. So I would have kind of a stayed at Fourth Church as
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associate pastor but my portfolio would have been organizing Covenant
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Network stuff and I had a strong call to do that work but not a strong call
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to serve in that role.
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And so then Tim and I.
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Tim having ideas from San Francisco leadership had
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known Pam obviously as a member of the congregation and he kind of recruited
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her and then we kind of quickly brought her on board.
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I think Pam I think a lot of things about Pam.
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I was trying to find I did a little speech at her retirement that
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we had in San Francisco and I don't I can't find that speech but what I remember
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is her spirit of some kind of absolute
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graciousness but graciousness that was had a theological
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underpinning to it.
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And whether you agreed with her or not whether
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you were have important role or not she treated
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you very graciously and as a kind of the beloved
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child of God you were and was our face in a lot of ways
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to the church when we in the leadership team weren't able to be or couldn't
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be. And she knew people
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up and down and all around.
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She went to places and had a very gracious presence.
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She was kind of a very creative dervish
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isn't the right word but a lot lot of energy around her.
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And you know sometimes you had to redirect that energy
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in the right ways to get things done.
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I mean again we were you know this would be
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interesting for somebody in either an MBA program or an organizational
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theory program to look at our leadership model.
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Cause we didn't have a theory going in, how we're going to organize this.
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What was our board going to be like. What staffing needs do we have.
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We said we thought we'd be in this in and out of this in a year.
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And when we weren't then we knew we weren't able to just as volunteers to manage
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things. So that's when we identified Pam and she was the perfect complement I think to
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Tim and me and the perfect complement then to all the co-moderators that followed
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her. She was very articulate, very
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compassionate, very passionate.
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And again I think because she was you know had this literature-editing
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background really fit well with our hopes for good communications and
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things like that. So I found her very delightful to work with.
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She was just a pleasant person.
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And you know I had to because I didn't
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know her in San Francisco and only saw her from time to time to time others got to know
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her a lot more staff people and people in San Francisco.
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But I just always had very positive interactions with Pam and enjoyed enjoy being with
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her and just her deep commitment to this cause and
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to the work and her kind of indefatigable spirit
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even as we lost you know vote after vote and when we would
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win we would win General Assembly votes and then lose Presbytery votes.
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That happened a bunch of times. That can be discouraging.
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She didn't project discouragement very much at all.
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I was always grateful for that.
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And then you also served on the Peace, Unity, and Purity task force?
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I did. Yes. So
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coming out of the 2001 General Assembly it
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was a moment where the word schism was being used not lightly.
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And of course we had been fussing for all those years about ordination and
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homosexuality. But this moment was actually about Christology.
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And there had been a kind of a controversy coming
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out of an ecumenical interfaith event and someone
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else can I don't know all the details but those are other details.
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But but the notion was what what does one need
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to believe about Jesus in order to be Presbyterian within the Christian faith.
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And so that combination of human sexuality and biblical authority interpretation and
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Christology meant that there was kind of this perfect storm of controversy coming out.
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So the General Assembly in 2001 created something called the Theological Task
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Force on the Peace, Unity, and Purity of the church.
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And I was named to that.
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Three, the current and then two previous moderators, appointed that.
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And I think why I was appointed was several reasons.
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One is at that point I was under 40 and there were only two of us under
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40.
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One was in their 20s I was in my I was 38 when I was appointed.
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I'm not that anymore.
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But so that youth piece of it or younger adult piece of it.
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I had been I had just come to
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Rochester from Chicago. So of the however many of us there
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were 20 or so of us there weren't many people who were pastors of kind of churches our
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size and I had a counterpart of a more conservative bent.
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Michael Algman and he and I were kind of this kind of church pastors
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in this group.
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I'd been active in Covenant Network and the Covenant Network.
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There were people from More Light on the task force but the Covenant Network did
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have this reputation I think an important one that not only did we want change in
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ordination standards but we really did care about the unity of the church and
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relationship building was a part of our was a part of our deal so
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they knew that about me. And the other thing is I'd written a dissertation on the
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Confession 1967. I knew our polity, I knew our confessional history, and our
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denominational history.
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I wasn't a seminary professor but I was kind of this quasi church historian
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that could tell the story and I think from my own personal temperament I worked well in
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those kind of groups and was a decent strategic thinker.
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So we came together with this four part mandate.
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Human sexuality, biblical authority, Christology and then
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they threw a fourth one in the mix power and how power is used in the church which
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actually we didn't understand at first but now I think at the end of the day that
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was very wise thing to do and yes we met for five years.
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I served in kind of sub teams around some of the history
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stuff and some of the writing teams and did a lot with when in Presbyterian
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history had we come to a point of perhaps schism and what had we done to
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avoid it. So what can we learn from our history for this moment.
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And the fact the matter is there are points in the 1700s and the
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1800s and in the 1900s when we were about to divide and we didn't.
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And so we tried to appropriate those lessons for this work and
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then we also tried to come up with a proposal that
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the vast majority of the church could live with and it was
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called recommendation 5.
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We liked it a lot. It was passed unanimously by our task force so people who were pro
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ordination and not pro ordination voted for it because they thought it
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gave us a way out of the of the moment we were in.
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Its local option is a shorthand.
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It's not a totally fair shorthand that kind of allows
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you to get what it meant.
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I used the phrase local application. That we had a standard that each Presbytery or
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each congregation was was able to apply in its local setting which has
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kind of been our tradition in our practice. We worked really hard on
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the language of it. I think what was disappointing to us is that the assembly
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passed it but not by by a 58 to 42 margin
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which in many other cases would have been a really big margin but for us we wanted a
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larger embrace of the notion of allowing local
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ordaining bodies to apply a sense of call
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to their work. But it's in some ways where we ended up anyway denominational.
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So the other thing.
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I saw people talk to me about the Theological Task Force.
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We had a model for our work that
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people embraced. So we did Bible study
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and discernment.
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We took very few votes. We tried to vote only when we had to vote.
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So lots of consensus building and
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people all across the denominations said we really like the way you
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modeled how to build community how to
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discern in the face of kind of disagreement in a way that doesn't
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feel binary and doesn't feel like win or lose.
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So I count the Theological Task Force as kind of one of the highlights of my ministry.
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And I'm always grateful that people still kind of remember it even
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though you know we did our final report in 2006 which is hard to believe.
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You know it's a great experience for me and made lifelong friends and colleagues
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in that experience as I did with the Covenant Network.
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So yeah.
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Well I guess looking back on moving back to the Covenant Network, what was it like
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when Amendment 10-A finally did pass?
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Well it was it was great for us.
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I mean I think I think by the time it passed we kind of knew
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where the church was heading and the culture was heading.
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You
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know it was very gratifying. It was gratifying.
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And it was gratifying in a sense that we had done a lot of relational
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work. One of the things about the Covenant Network was I
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think the Presbyterian Outlook, I found that article and I read it recently you
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know there was a poll in the Presbyterian Outlook at some point along the way.
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And Covenant Network scored really high in terms of credibility.
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So even if you disagreed with our stances on things you
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believed us to be credible and had integrity in terms of how much we cared
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for the church and how much relationship building mattered.
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So we spent a lot of time building relationships to the right of us and
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to the left of us. We did that I think because it was good politics but more so we
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really believed in that vision of peace, unity, and purity only happens through
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relationship building and and some of us had been trained at McCormick
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Seminary which was a seminary that did a lot with community organizing training.
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Community organizing is at heart about relationship building and then figuring
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out where power is and how you how you exercise power in the context of relationship
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building.
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So that was the work we did. So we were glad when it
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passed. We I think tried to kind of be a low key about it.
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What we realized all along is that you know Covenant
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Network at the start in any way was primarily straight, primarily white,
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primarily large church and my ordination
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and my colleagues mostly weren't up for debate in all this.
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So and if you were part of you know first PLGC or the
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More Light Presbyterians or That All May Freely Serve yours was.
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And so we tried to be mindful that.
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I think mostly we did OK with that not always I'm sure in
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terms of being sensitive to how we you know the language about privilege wasn't prevalent
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then but certainly we had it in in large measure on several fronts.
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And so I think when 10-A passed we were we were grateful
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not jubilant but kind of grateful and said OK this is where we think the
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church needs to be and then we're ready to move to that next thing.
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And then marriage happened much
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more quickly than that. I mean as culture accelerated this conversation so did the
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church. So you know rather than almost 20 years of debate about ordination
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it was just a handful of years of debate about marriage.
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And that happened so quickly as to almost to leave our
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breath away. One of the great moments of my ministry was when
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the ordination overture came to the General Assembly in
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2014 I had been a candidate for moderator or that General Assembly moderator and did not
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prevail and that was too bad.
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But I was able then to be a commissioner and I was able to make a
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motion on the floor that broadened
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the language a little bit and allowed some more people I think to
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vote for that overture.
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That language eventually ended up in the Book of Order.
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So it's always a little footnote that I said that.
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That was reported on and that was a cool thing.
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But I think that was really in the spirit of Covenant Network where we were trying to
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build broadly bridges in both directions so that we were able to advance the
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marriage conversation but also with that language bring some of our more
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conservative friends along by the language that is still in the Book of Order.
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So that was fun.
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Can you talk about some of those relationships that you built with people across the
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aisle?
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Sure yeah yeah. Well they were they were important.
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They still are important. I'm still in touch with people.
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I'm still in a group that meets annually
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and some of the people with whom and we try to really avoid kind
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of language about battle and opponent and things like that.
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But but in terms of legislation and Robert's Rules of Order they
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were pretty intense. We had most of the
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a lot of it happened behind the scenes.
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So regular conference calls with representatives of PFR Presbyterians for Renewal maybe
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once a quarter so just to say OK here's what we're
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thinking what are you thinking, what's your take on the temperature of the church right
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now.
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We really tried to say no surprises things like that.
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We had fewer of those conversations with people like More Light and That All
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May Freely Serve. We tried to coordinate our strategies
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with them. Obviously you know if we're trying to win votes at an assembly or
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if we want to vote in assembly win votes in presbytery we did much better when we were
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coordinating than not. We always had at every assembly and this was again mostly when
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assemblies were meeting every year.
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We would get together informally to talk.
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We always tried. I always tried to be present you know
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at the General Assembly there are you know these crazy breakfasts every morning.
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You know each group does it. I try to go to all the ones of groups with which we agreed
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and disagreed because I think that you know whatever pursing
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the issue pursing the relationship felt really important and
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I think I think what the people on the right knew was
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that we disagreed pretty fundamentally not just on
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ordination but I would say on the things that lead to ordination.
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So our Christology stuff certainly biblical authority and interpretation.
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I think there was no doubt ever that we love God we love Jesus we love
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the church and we wanted it to do well and that our
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efforts were in the context of that pretty
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bedrock ecclesiology and I think that's where those colleagues appreciated
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what we were doing and how we cared about the mission of the church.
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I mean these were and we cared about the denomination.
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So but there were rigorous conference
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calls, rigorous meetings.
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They weren't angry or contentious but they were rigorous.
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And I think in the spirit of relationship building it really helped
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move things along in a healthy way.
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But I do remember walking out some of those you know exhausted
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mentally and physically or mentally emotionally and spiritually
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just because the intensity of the conversation.
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Was there any of that relationship building happening
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here at Third Church?
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Well yes. So when I came here this this Presbytery, Genesee
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Valley Presbytery had and has a reputation as a pretty progressive
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presbytery. You know when I came here there were five or six More Light
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congregations. That wasn't the case in Chicago Presbytery where there
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were two or three maybe.
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And those congregations all got together from time to time and did
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things. I made it part of my task to begin
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to build relationships almost immediately with people who I knew disagreed with me.
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So I spent a lot of time in the car driving to places having lunch with ministerial
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colleagues saying listen we disagree on this.
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My hunch is we agree on a lot of things.
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I hope we can be friends and colleagues in this presbytery and
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I think that that came out of a history in this Presbytery
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that predates me of lawsuits being filed judicial
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I mean ecclesial lawsuits being filed not
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just against Downtown Church with that happened when Janie Spahr was called, one
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of our members Jim Moore was her lawyer, and that in
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that process James Moore really distinguished attorney in Rochester former
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president of the New York State Bar.
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He represented her and it was a devastating loss for
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that. And still I don't understand how they how that decisions were made.
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So we had also had charges brought against us when we declared ourselves to be More Light
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in the 1980s. So there
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were still vestiges of that dynamic when I came. Then almost 15 years later and I said
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all right that's past I'm sorry that happened.
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I support ordination equality.
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I'm going to keep working for that. But I think we can be friends and colleagues so I
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think that was I don't say my predecessors didn't ever do that.
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I don't know if they did or not but I made it a point to.
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And then the work of Peace, Unity, and Purity helped underscore that work so
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that whenever there were votes taken in the presbytery which
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were generally 73 votes all the time maybe
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and now it would be even more than that as we've lost some congregations.
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People knew that. I remember I would go to some churches congregations
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and talk about this. I would say you know here's what I believe.
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But here's what our Constitution says so you
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know using those teaching moments to build relations that
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here at least one person was representing a
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congregation that took the unity piece of that seriously and wanted these
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congregations to have a voice to be heard.
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To be a part of the Presbyterian Mission. And I think some of that's continued
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to bear fruit. It's a different pressure here now because it's a different denomination
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now. I spent a lot of time the first five or six years doing that a lot not
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and not any burden to me.
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That's kind of what I felt called to do so.
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And I think our members who were very committed to More Light.
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I mean we're we're a strongly More Light congregation and
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we still have a strong More Light committee. We do.
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You know we've we sent overture advocates to
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General Assembly on a regular basis.
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We've also done a lot with civic legislation so sending people to Albany for
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agenda and the Gender Non-Discrimination Act and the sexual orientation Nondiscrimination
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Act and all those things. We also the pride parade happens right
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around this building so we're always kind of a hotbed.
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It's Pride Week and we always have events here and I always march in the parade and we
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always have a big group be part of the Pride parade.
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So we've been very public in our leadership in
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Rochester around issues of sexuality and inclusion.
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A lot of that trajectory started long
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before I got here. I've been really I think privileged to be able to kind of cultivate it
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and be a part of that. And we didn't have to reinvent anything when I got here to say hey
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we're on the same page in this.
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We've also and we're active the
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Divinity School has an active lecture series that we've been a
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part of bringing speakers from across the country.
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And usually when they do that we have them preach here on that Sunday and then speak at
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the school on Monday and that's been fun.
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I've mostly gotten people from the denomination who've been leaders to come and that's
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been a good action to make.
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So I think our people
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often say for us well we've achieved ordination and now we've achieved
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marriage. Do we still need to be a More Light congregation?
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And I always answer yes I think the reasons for being More Light
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have evolved. You know now there is constitutional
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latitude for us to ordain who we think God has called.
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And at the same time we still know there's prejudice culturally and in
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the church. We still know there are issues of equality to be advanced
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and we still know that there is a lot of baggage.
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And I even talked about it just this morning in my sermon.
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There is still baggage around perceptions of the
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church's acceptance, mostly the big church out there, acceptance of LGBTQ
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persons. We have a growing trans population at Third Church
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and so I think that's the more current conversation
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about how we can have the same kind of sense of equity and equality as
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we have earlier for gay and lesbian persons.
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So I think until I think we feel like we're firmly
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on the other side of a lot of these conversations we still need to be
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a More Light congregation. In fact we're just ordering, we have a big tower and we
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hang a 20 or 30 foot rainbow banner on it during Pride Week.
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We just ordered a new one because a big building with
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wind and stone the banner takes a beating so we're gonna keep
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doing that work I think for a while as long as we feel called to it.
speaker
Well I think we've gone through all of my questions but if there's anything else that
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you've had on your mind to talk about?
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No I think
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I think what I think about a lot is you know
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having served on the Peace Union Purity task force we had hoped
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to craft a legislative response that
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would allow people of conscience to stay within the denominational family.
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And I'm saddened that that hasn't always been the case.
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So the
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evolution of ECO and
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just the leaving, the departing of churches to
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whether the EPC or OPC or the PCA here it's generally the EPC
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saddens me because you know this morning's
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Gospel lesson was from John.
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You know Jesus's prayer that they all be one.
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And that feels pretty compelling to me.
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That doesn't mean unity doesn't have
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to be denominational unity. I get that.
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I think it's at a deeper level around baptism and our identity as children
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of God. And at the same time when there is denominational
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disunity even if it's this side of schism I still think that does damage
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to the body of Christ.
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And I miss colleagues
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who have gone to other denominations and I miss their presence in ours because
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I think the more diverse theologically and experientially we can be
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the better. So I still hope somehow that
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that recommendation 5 could have had a different kind of traction.
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That people didn't feel they needed to leave.
speaker
Now that's not to say that them leaving wasn't the right decision for them.
speaker
I totally get that. I worked hard to keep some churches in and went
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to visit them and some did and some didn't.
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So that's a piece of it.
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I'm very grateful.
speaker
I was surprised you know we had this Covenant Network kind of reunion now a month
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ago.
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I was surprised at the deep level of gratification in that gathering
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because again my job wasn't up for grabs.
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And at the same time we all made choices.
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This was how we're going to invest our time and energy and a big chunk
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of time and energy. And it was the right thing to do.
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My my hunch is other colleagues in Covenant Network it was riskier
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for them to do it than it might have been for me.
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But I could have been doing other things with that time.
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Other worthwhile things.
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Mission in Chicago or things like that.
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But not to overdramatize it you know with Queen Esther for such a time as this that
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happened to be the moment we were in and I think the combination
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of leadership and timing and energy and wisdom.
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I think what that weekend of reunion reminded us was
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how hard the work was.
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How unclear it was sometimes. How discouraging it could be
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when you lose vote after vote after vote that can be discouraging.
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And at the same time how deeply gratifying it was because I think we did
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some really good work and we did it with integrity and we did it without kind of burning
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the house down. And that felt important to us.
speaker
And now on the other side of that you know the denominations an entirely different
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enterprise now.
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But I think part of our legacy helped set it up for who it is now in terms
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of the Next Church Movement or other things
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around inclusivity. Even a conversation about race and racism that we're in right now.
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So deep level of gratitude for that being able to be a part of that Covenant Network
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history which I think you know in your head but until you get all these people in a
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room you don't know exactly what it means.
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And I was still on I
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was in the young side of all those gatherings.
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And to see some of my senior colleagues
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for the first time in a long time for some of it was just deeply touching as well.
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And to remember those who have gone now.
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Pam Byers, Laird Stuart, Casey Tony.
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Some others really the saints of this movement and to remember them
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was really wonderful.
speaker
That's a good place to stop.

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Title: John Wilkinson oral history, 2019.
Description: John Wilkinson helped organize the Covenant Network of Presbyterians in 1997 and served on the PC(USA) Theological Task Force on Peace, Unity, and Purity from 2001-2006.
Creator: Wilkinson, John. (interviewee)
Wittrig, Elizabeth L. (interviewer)
Date: 2019
June 2, 2019
Type of resource: moving image
Genre: oral histories
interviews
Form: born digital
video recordings
Extent: 246 MB (1 MP4 file)
Subject names: Covenant Network of Presbyterians.
Third Presbyterian Church (Rochester, N.Y.)
Wilkinson, John.
Topics: Homosexuality--Religious aspects--Presbyterian Church.
Ordination of gays.
Ordination of lesbians.
Geographic subjects: North and Central America--United States
Rights status: IN COPYRIGHT; http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Physical location: ARCHIVES 19-0605; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA
Related item: John Wilkinson oral history, 2019.--http://prestohost68.inmagic.com/Presto/content/Detail.aspx?ctID=Y2RiNWNk...
Identifier (local): 19-0605_john_wilkinson
PID (Persistent Identifier): islandora:153474

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