Daniel Vigilante oral history, 2019.

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This is Elizabeth Wittrig, interviewing Daniel Vigilante.
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Vigilante.
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VIgilante. I was close.
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On April 26 2019. Daniel if you want to start by telling us when and where you were born.
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Sure. I was born in June 1977 in New
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Jersey of all places.
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Livingston New Jersey and grew up in a little town called Morris Plains.
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And did you have any religious influences growing up?
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Yeah. My grandfather was actually a Presbyterian pastor.
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He died before I was born.
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So in 1963.
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But my mom who was an only child and my grandmother who lived with us growing up
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you know sort of not only raised me but raised me
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in the faith and going to church. And it was just it was actually the church where he had
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served my grandfather had served as a pastor.
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So there were really strong deep roots in that congregation
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and my mom still lives there and it's still sort of my home church today.
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Did you feel any call to ministry growing up?
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Yeah. I did.
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I loved church. Church was a place of
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fun. It was a place of faith of course but it was also a place
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that I really enjoyed going. I have three older brothers and they did not necessarily
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share my affection that I experienced
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for church.
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But I think out of that kind of safe space that felt
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like home also sort of developed a feeling like
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yeah maybe this is a place where I want to be professionally like as a vocation.
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I always thought that I would do something else first.
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I don't know. Be a teacher or something for a while.
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But I went straight from high school I took a gap
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year went to college and went straight from there to seminary and then started serving a
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church right after that.
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And where did you go to seminary?
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I went to Princeton Theological Seminary.
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The pastor at my home church when I was in high school was also a Princeton grad
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and I remember him saying once you know you could
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go to another seminary but I don't know why you'd want to.
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It's sort of that old school club you know.
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And like I said I always thought I would do something different.
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And and as sort of the beginning
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of my senior year was approaching my senior year in college
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he said, Well why don't you go ahead and apply to seminary and if you get in
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great. You can always defer.
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And if you don't get in well no harm done.
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And so I did and I got in and then
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was accepted into the dual program the dual MDiv and M.A.
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in youth ministry program there and all of these little things kept falling into place
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and it just seemed like a very deep affirmation
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of my call to ministry.
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You know that God was sort of like clearing away any possible barrier to
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what I was supposed to do.
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What year would you have graduated from Princeton?
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I graduated in 2004 because I did the dual program.
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I would have graduated 2003 but I had that bonus year.
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So what was the attitude like on campus toward LGBTQ inclusion in the Presbyteiran Church?
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I mean in the
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Presbyterian Church it was sort of still
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the early days of pushing back on Amendment B.
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You know it had just gone into the Book of Order a couple of years before I began
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seminary. And that was one of the things that I sort of considered was whether
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seminary was the right thing. I mean the Presbyterian Church wasn't ordaining people like
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me at that point. And I sort of you know naively naively thought
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oh well you know I have four years by the time I graduate
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we'll have solved this.
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You know and at Princeton Seminary you know there was sort of our own
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struggle I guess would be the right word.
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I mean there were people on all sides of the of the ordination issue.
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That's one of the things about a seminary that has 700 students.
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I mean it had liberal students who thought it was too conservative.
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Conservative students thought it was too liberal. So it was you know somewhere probably
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in the middle and everyone was represented.
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And that was true for faculty as well. I mean I knew that there were safe people on the
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faculty and supportive folks.
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And then there were not supportive folks including the president of the seminary at the
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time.
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It was still a very cordial place.
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You know I think people had good meaningful
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conversations around tables and wrestled
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with what was the faithful thing to do
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and how to be the church together.
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And that's really when I got involved with Covenant Network was in my first year at
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Princeton.
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And can you talk about that story? How that happened?
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Yeah. So early on in that first semester you know the fall
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of my first year of seminary I don't know I think sort of like the Progressive
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kids and the gay kids kind of all found each other.
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Yeah. You know what I mean. It was sort of like Oh yeah.
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You too. Me. Yeah.
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And there were four of us.
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Two gay guys and then two
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hetero women who were interested in had heard about Covenant
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Network and heard that there was this conference in Pittsburgh which is like a six
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hour drive or so from Princeton and that's where my I
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don't know she was probably like 85 at the time.
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Maybe 80-85 years old at the time.
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My great aunt lived there.
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And so I was like oh we can say on my Aunt Cissy's floor.
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So we we were like well alright let's do it.
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So we road tripped to Pittsburgh and we slept on my great Aunt's floor
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and we went to this conference that I don't like.
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I was just naive about everything at the time.
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And I don't know there were probably six hundred people there including one of our
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professors who was one of the keynote speakers.
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Brian Blunt.
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And so yeah I mean it was just in some ways like it was a blast.
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I remember at that conference like for whatever reason we
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sat in the front pew at East Liberty Presbyterian Church where this was.
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I mean we like I don't know if that's like Presbyterian nerd
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like to the nth degree but we sat in the front pew and
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I remember you know Princeton was not known for being a supportive
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progressive place and somehow it
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was made known that there was this little contingency from Princeton Seminary sitting in
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the front row and I will never forget Deborah Block saying, you know sort
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of pointing that out at one point. You know these four students from Princeton Seminary.
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And I remember she said the winds of change are sweeping through Princeton
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Seminary and I was like yes we are the winds of change.
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But yeah it was like not just fun for
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all of those reasons but it was just a really really good conference.
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And I said I want to get involved here and want
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to come back.
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And so I think three
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of the four of us went back the next year in Pasadena to the conference there
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and now I have a story from that one but I'll save that for now.
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So I believe it was spring of 2001 when like
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the first Amendment A was moving through the Presbyteries and
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like failed miserably.
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Went down in flames.
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And that was that was kind of when I was like oh I don't know.
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My naive little bubble burst and I thought,
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What am I doing here?
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It was also that conference was like less
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than two months after 9/11.
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And I think just the whole tone and feeling
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in the country was much more sort of kind of who
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are we and what are we doing.
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So it's sort of this broad cultural phenomenon
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taking place but also in a very personal way.
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Like what am I doing. Who am I. Why am I here.
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You know. And I remember going to that conference and Peter Gomes
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I remember him preaching.
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I remember meeting Janie Spahr for the first time at that conference.
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But most of all I remember being
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at a reception and kind of introducing myself
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to Pam Byers and saying you know
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like why should I stay.
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Like why should a student like me stay in the PC(USA).
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And she said,
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Well I don't know when things are going to change but they are going to change.
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You know all these people are here to make change and they're going to change
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and I hope that you're a part of it when it happens.
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And that was that was like the conversation that kept me in the PC(USA) honestly
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because I think I was ready to leave.
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So I credit Pam Byers with everything
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but with keeping me in the Presbyterian Church.
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When you first started attending these Covenant Network gatherings were there a lot of younger people there?
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No not at all. I think that's why we stuck out that we're sitting in the front row.
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There were a handful and then more and more like I remember
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you know and to the credit of the of the cabinet board before you know I
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was really involved. I think there were some really
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I don't I don't know that they were difficult conversations but they were certainly
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substantive conversations because I think when all this started you know the
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assumption was you know in a few years like you know we're
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we're gonna organize. We'll figure it out.
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And it was this sort of network of well-connected
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influential people within the denomination.
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And so to be able to sort of open up
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leadership opportunities to younger people I think was
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maybe maybe earlier on the need wasn't as evident
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to do that.
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But I think there were also opportunities given to people
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like me not to just
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serve on the board but you know like like volunteering to work with YADs at G.A.
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That was another way that I probably first got involved was working with the
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young adults which was like great fun.
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You know and there were still there were still this feeling I guess
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you know like like we could do that.
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But then the board was sort of this like the board.
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And the Covenant Network you know.
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That's both probably real and imagined.
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Because I know there were people who I like looked up to and admired and so I said the
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board I'm like oh all these amazing people in whose presence
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I just wanted to sit the ascent of you know.
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Yeah.
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How did you eventually become a part of the board?
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You know I think part of it was just sort of like working hard you know and
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and being present, being around, going to G.A., volunteering.
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When I finished
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seminary I started serving a church as kind of like the de facto associate
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pastor there.
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And I still kept attending Covenant Network conferences and working
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with the ads at General Assembly. And yeah it was
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2008. Fall of 2008. When David Van Dyke actually
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gave me a call and said you know we'd like to invite you to join the board.
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I was like ha you know my jaw dropped a little.
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And at that time was the board, I know the Covenant Network mostly started out as more straight allies, but was that still the case when you joined in 2008?
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Yeah I think that there were some folks
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on the board some gay folks on the board but it
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was not a safe time to be out.
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For really for any of us. It was safer for me because I had
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one of the things about my seminary like after after 2001 and Amendment A
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going down and talking to Pam Byers and then I spent that next summer visiting some UCC
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churches with Pam's voice in the back of my head and
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really thinking about whether to leave or not.
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And again it was Pam's voice.
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You know like change is gonna happen change you know.
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And I just remember thinking like that's not going to happen if I'm not here.
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You know like you need people who are making change from the inside.
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And people might think oh it's unfortunate that Daniel left and became a UCC
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pastor but that's not going to help move
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the PC(USA) to a place of inclusion you know.
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So so yeah.
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There are there were gay people on the board
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but it was sort of quietly known among only a few
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which is I mean sort of that was a sad moment in the life of the church
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where people couldn't sort of be open about who they are or
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who they love.
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So when you graduated from Princeton Theological Seminary you started
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at your first congregation without being ordained?
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Right. So in the fall
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of my fourth year, my super senior year,
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I started looking at positions you know and
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first I started looking at like non-ordained youth ministry positions because I had this
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dual active MDiv, M.A. and youth ministry degree that I was working toward.
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And and so you know
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at that time when I pulled up the sort of opportunity search on church leadership
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connection looking at non-ordained youth ministry positions there were
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I don't know a handful and it was sort of like college education preferred.
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And I was like well I'm sort of overqualified for that and you're certainly not
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paying enough to help me you know pay back my student loans.
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So then I was sort of on a whim I started looking at
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that ordained positions you know for either Christian Aid or youth ministry
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and there were a ton. I mean there were a ton. And I was like this is crazy you know.
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I have the credentials I just don't have that ordination.
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You know or you know but I have the seminary degree, I have the education, I have the
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background, I have the call you know.
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And so then I was like, Well I
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don't like how do you you know I started clicking on them and I was like I don't know
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how to tell if this is like a safe place for me to even like apply
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or call or send my resume to.
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And so then I I sort of brought up the list of churches
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that were seeking associates for youth ministry and then the list of Covenant
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Network churches from the Covenant Network website.
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And I just started like cross referencing and there was one.
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One church on the list.
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St. Mark Presbyterian Church in Newport Beach California.
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And then I read about it and I was like this
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is amazing. And then of course like the TV show The O.C.
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was really popular at that time and I was like this is perfect.
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So I talked to the dean of
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like student affairs at Princeton Seminary and I was like Kathy Cooke Davis
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and I was like Kathy like this is perfect for me.
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And she was like yeah it sounds perfect.
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And she offered to call and sort of have a first conversation with them.
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And just say we have this student we think he would be great but he's
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not on the ordination track right now.
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And I don't even think she said much more than that.
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You know she didn't say you know he's openly gay.
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She just had to use not on the ordination track right now.
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So they said well we're really looking for an ordained person
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but tell him to go ahead and send his stuff anyway.
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And because I wasn't on the ordination track like I didn't have a piff you know I had
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sort of a resume. But that was it.
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So I quickly like wrote one you know or at least the equivalent
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of one and sent it off and then
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sorry if this is a long winded answer to the question but I sent it off and
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I sort of followed up and then they asked for like a sermon tape.
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Tape. It was literally like a VHS tape
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which I had to mail them. Well times have changed.
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And then that was like in November or early December
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and I didn't hear anything.
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And then I waited until after Christmas.
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And like around mid-January and I sort of reached out again
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and they said you know oh with Christmas we haven't been meeting as regularly.
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And then I was emailing the the chair of the PNC and
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he was like and my work travel is crazy I've actually I'm traveling back and forth to New
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York quite a bit and I was like well there's my in.
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So I emailed him back and I said you know New York is just a short train ride from
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Princeton Seminary. I was like I would love to come up and you know grab coffee and meet
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and learn more about the church. And we connected and had this like amazing conversation.
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That was like mid-February I think.
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And by mid-April I had gone out to
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California for an interview and then I think they had like another interview a couple
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of weeks later and offered me the position.
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So I was offered the position May 1st.
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I graduated May 15th and I started June 1st.
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So it was like I had no plan. And then again
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God was like making a way you know.
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I had no idea that I'd be there but like what an amazing congregation.
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They said you know we're looking for an associate pastor
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but you know they considered me anyway and then
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ultimately they called me to this position and allowed
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me to serve kind of as the de facto associate at this church.
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So I got to do kind of everything that everything but preside at
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communion or baptisms.
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Yeah it was amazing.
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And were you open about your sexual orientation while you were there?
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Yeah. So I remember in my one on one time during my interview, that mid-April interview,
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sitting down with the pastor and I had this little speech planned.
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My coming out speech to him.
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And so I kind of finished my little speech and he was like, yeah we kind of assumed that.
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I was like Oh OK.
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So they knew you know.
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And and yeah I think for that church
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they sort of had to ask you know OK we're a Covenant Network church.
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We say we're sort of in this open and affirming place.
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How do we live that out you know.
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And yeah they were able to and willing to
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put aside their desire to call an ordained person.
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So yeah I think it says a whole lot about who they are and
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that they were willing to do that and did do that for me.
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How long did you serve there for?
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Almost eight years so
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it was a great match. A great fit.
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I wasn't actually looking to leave. In November
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of so I started there in June 2004 and then in
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November of 2011 I was sitting downstairs in the Thompson room here at Westminster
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Presbyterian Church in Minneapolis and it
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was a cabinet board meeting sort of talking about the future of the
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organization. It looked promising at that point that ordination was
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going to finally pass.
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I think we were voting in the presbytery and the trend was looking really good.
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And so we were sitting on this board meeting and
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Tim Hart-Andersen said he was kind of watching people
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in the room and he had looked at me and he was like yeah.
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So there was this partnership that was newly forming between Westminster and
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this little sort of dying congregation here in Minneapolis.
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And they were in the middle of their own search for
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for someone to be.
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I think they were calling it a designated associate pastor at that point who would be
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on the staff at Westminster but designated to this ministry in this other church
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trying to turn things around.
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And so I think when he first mentioned you know oh you should really think about this
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position we've got going on in Minneapolis, I was like I live in
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Newport Beach California.
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I was like you're crazy.
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I didn't tell him that of course. Because again here's one of those like ahh people that
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I respect and admire but I was also like
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there is no way I'm leaving Newport Beach.
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But then it was like
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oh like Twin Cities Presbytery would ordain me.
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Well that's that's an interesting thought.
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And that really sort of brought back to my
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mind you know that sense of like call and vocation and what was I really called to
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and you know am I called to sort of serve God's people wherever or
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am I called to like have Reverend in front of my name.
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I mean like deep questions that that raised.
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So I went ahead. I mean that was that was maybe it was not November at that point maybe
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it's September it was September because by like November I had sent my stuff, had
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a phone interview I think in
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early December. They had me here for an interview and the whole
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time I'm going like this is crazy.
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Why am I even doing this? Like I think when I was here for my interview it was like 9
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degrees in December.
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I was like gosh get me out of here
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you know.
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And and then I don't know.
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I don't remember the exact timing at that point but it was around the time
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when they were offering me the position when
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like we were so close to like having the votes we received you know to
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overturn Amendment B and and then as it happened like
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it was Twin Cities Presbytery that cast the deciding vote.
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I mean we needed 87 votes.
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And this was the 87th presbytery.
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Maybe it was 77. 87. I think 87.
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Anyway.
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So yeah I found myself like suddenly
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like having a new plan you know very quickly.
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So I think it was mid-February of that year 2012 when
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when. Maybe I have it all backwards.
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Maybe I'm a year behind with the way things worked but point is.
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Yeah I guess I am a year backwards. Anyway the point is like I was not expecting to be
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here at all.
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But here I am. And it also meant going
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back under care.
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So I actually joined Westminster as a member which was crazy but that way I could go
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under care in this presbytery and
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with the help of Tim and some others you know working
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with the polity of our denomination to move things along.
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So I got I had been an Inquirer back in New Jersey where I grew up and in seminary
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in my first year or two of seminary.
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So I had that time like under my belt so I was able to pretty quickly
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move to candidacy which then allowed me to like take the ordination exams which I had not
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taken in seminary.
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So I started here in April and
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took the ords in August.
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And passed them all. Which was crazy because I hadn't even taken the Bible
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content exam.
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So I had to take Bible content and then all four ordination exams like
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now almost 10 years after graduating from seminary.
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So I passed them all which is like incredible you know.
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And then had to wait for some time
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as a candidate before I could then be ordained.
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But the whole process was a lot faster than it would have been otherwise
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without some people really clearing the path for
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me to move through.
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And that's been I just passed seven years here.
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So it's been a good fit here too.
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So what was it like when Amendment 10-A passed and you realized that you could become officially ordained?
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So I was wrong about the timing of how that was all playing out.
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It happened. Yeah. A year before when.
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So when 10-A passed I remember the day I don't remember
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the date but I remember that day really well because I was following like on Twitter what
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was happening here and we
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actually had at the St. Mark the church where I was we ended up having this
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like impromptu celebration.
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We emailed the congregation said we've got like champagne
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and snacks and come by the church this evening and let's celebrate this together.
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And you know it's still in my mind at that time like I wasn't going
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anywhere. You know. And I actually kind of knew that in that presbytery like
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I wasn't gonna be ordained either you know.
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So it was like there was a lot of reason to celebrate
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and sort of personally it was sort of like well this doesn't
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really mean much to me right now.
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Like personally in terms of my own sense of like oh now I can finally
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get out of here and go be ordained somewhere like yeah.
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I had no plans to leave at that point.
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At
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that time you were on the Covenant Network board so you were involved in the organizing to help pass the amendment?
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Yeah.
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Absolutely. My role was always
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less strategy and more.
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I don't know more I don't even know what you would say, sort
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of logistics. You know I had still continued to work with the young adult advisory
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delegates at G.A.. I was helping with conferences.
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I was sort of more of a detail person than sort of the vision and casting
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the strategy and things like that for the organization.
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So you know I trusted the people who that as their spiritual gifts that they
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just can see into the future and know what we need to do to get there.
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I was sort of like more like legwork you know.
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How long did you stay on the board then?
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I was on the board until just last year.
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So I stuck with it for a while.
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Really. So we passed ordination
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I guess technically at the 2012 assembly and then worked for marriage in
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2014.
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And you know that was achieved through like an A.I.
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essentially and then I sort of felt
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like OK we need an assembly to like embed this.
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You know to make sure whatever we have done doesn't
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get undone by some really well organized effort coming from the
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other Presbyterians.
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And so after 2016 I sort of felt like maybe this was done for me too
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and my service. I stuck with it a little longer just
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to see what might happen. And but then I left early 2018.
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Were you involved with other LGBTQ advocacy groups?
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Not as much.
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You know More Light does some amazing
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work and I have a lot of respect for the leadership
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at More Light and a lot of the folks over there I would call close friends
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you know.
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I always felt like so this is gonna be a
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long tangent maybe but my first
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year at Princeton Seminary.
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That fall there was this
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there was this sort of forum organized by a more conservative
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group called pastoral perspectives on homosexuality.
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And they brought in some well-known speakers in the ex-gay movement,
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ex-gay ministries. It's common.
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Talk about pastoral perspectives on homosexuality.
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And it was sort of like up until that point
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I think there had been this kind of like loosely organized
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gay group at Princeton.
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But again it was not a safe time to be out.
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So so then this thing happened
speaker
and that really you know I
speaker
remember it was like the day the posters went up about it some of us were like what the
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heck. And then there was whatever the group was that was putting this on it was
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like they are putting like. And then we started doing some research.
speaker
And like suddenly like we were like no.
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Like this is maybe a perspective but it's not
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a theologically sound one. It's not a psychologically or emotionally sound
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perspective. And there are certainly lots of other things that we could say.
speaker
So that was actually the thing that sort of organized
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like the LGBTQ students and straight
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allies on campus.
speaker
So and that was really what became BGLAS at
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Princeton Seminary which is still going strong and it
speaker
was kind of cool that I got to be there for the start of that and see that.
speaker
And it's interesting how it was sort of born out of this thing that this other
speaker
group was doing but suddenly like we were organized.
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We were doing stuff. And by the time my super senior year rolled around
speaker
and I was one of the co-moderators you know I was sort of able to see like
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OK. So you have like these students over here and these students over
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here and we just don't interact very much.
speaker
And so I don't know.
speaker
I just sort of felt like we need to do stuff that's more oriented toward
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like conversation and dialogue. And that was one of the things that drew me to Covenant
speaker
Network. Not that More Light isn't oriented toward conversation and dialogue but
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it just seemed like Covenant Network was coming at things from the middle of the church
speaker
and trying to say like we are going to work hard to remove this
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barrier but we also don't want to exclude anyone.
speaker
And that's really shaped like my whole sort of like personal theology
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too you know because I don't think you can hold to a theology of inclusion
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that also like says well if you don't think like me there's no room for you.
speaker
You know it's one of the reasons why I like I think so many of us have lamented
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what's happened in the denomination with congregations just deciding to leave.
speaker
As if to say like because we're now ordaining gay people like we
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can't be a part of that you know.
speaker
And on the one hand I'm like if you must go, go.
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On the other hand it makes me sad you know.
speaker
So you asked me something about my affiliation with other groups.
speaker
So it's not so much that I like disagree with or you
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know I have not had much affiliation with other groups.
speaker
I think CovNet and More Light learned to work really well together.
speaker
Kind of as you know especially later on like realizing like OK if we put our resources
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together, if we use our time at General Assembly together you know we
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can have a greater impact.
speaker
But I always appreciated Covenant Network's sort of approach that
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was trying to make change but also hold the whole church together.
speaker
That was important to me and still is.
speaker
Did you have relationships
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with or conversations with people who did disagree with ordination rights for LGBTQ Presbyterians?
speaker
Certainly in seminary.
speaker
You know that was something that I really actively tried
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to do.
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You know after that you know you sort
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of become focused I guess in your own way with your own youth ministry
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in my job and my church and
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certainly there would have been more opportunities than I
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then I probably
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there would have been more opportunities to do that especially where I was serving.
speaker
You know that presbytery was pretty conservative
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and in some ways you know I didn't put myself out there in that way because
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you know that's a difficult thing to do.
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At the same time you know there's this odd you know.
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So then I was sort of asked to serve on the Presbyterian Education Committee and I did
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that for a while and then I was asked to serve on the I
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can't remember what the what the name of it was kind of like a church vitality committee
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of the presbytery. And then I started being in charge of like the presbytery's worship
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services and I was like this is the most bizarre thing. You people won't even ordain me
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but you want me to plan the worship services for presbytery meetings like you
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know. And I think at that by that point not everyone in
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the presbytery was feeling like oh we can't ordain.
speaker
Yeah I think I think there were a lot of people who sort of
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had their own position, their own minds changed.
speaker
But it was this sort of bizarre like OK
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like I will plan worship for the presbytery in which you
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know I will not be ordained.
speaker
And you know which sort of got gutted honestly like
speaker
with congregations leaving you know it was like.
speaker
I can't remember, I think there were 50 or 60 some odd churches.
speaker
And then I think like eleven left.
speaker
Was that after ordination?
speaker
I think after ordination and marriage. I think
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marriage was the thing that was the hardest maybe for
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some conservative churches.
speaker
I think they were sort of like we can concede ordination
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but marriage I don't know.
speaker
I don't know why. But I think that was the the thing that
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really pushed a lot of those churches to to leave.
speaker
It sounds like when you were on your path to ordination in the Twin Cities you really didn't encounter any resistance at all.
speaker
Not really I mean there was one pastor in particular who
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you know to to his credit and maybe to mine you know at my examination
speaker
you know he stood up and basically said like
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I really like your statement of faith and there's nothing in here that I
speaker
I would disagree with but I just cannot.
speaker
So when it came time for the vote
speaker
you know it was a voice vote that was like overwhelming.
speaker
Well I wasn't there but I from what I hear it was sort of this overwhelming
speaker
you know I think that people were like making a statement you know like with their vote.
speaker
And so it was like yes.
speaker
And then I think there were you know one or two no.
speaker
I wish I could have been there in that moment. I wish I hadn't been out of the room but
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that's what people told me.
speaker
It was just sort of this. So it was a really joyful joyful moment.
speaker
But yeah not everyone here was super supportive.
speaker
Can you talk about your actual ordination service then?
speaker
Yeah. It was amazing.
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It really was.
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There were like 70
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some people who came from the church that I served in California which
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was crazy you know. It was it was crazy and just kind of
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tells you like about the sorts of folks that were there you know and just so supportive.
speaker
Yeah it was wonderful and beautiful.
speaker
I mean it was a pretty like standard Presbyterian ordination
speaker
service and I kind of loved that it wasn't this I don't know
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it it wasn't any different than anyone else's in a lot of ways you know.
speaker
And that I think was what made it for me like special.
speaker
But yeah it was fun. I mean I had to reserve a hotel room block for people coming
speaker
from out of town.
speaker
And you know it was sort of like this whole it developed
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into this whole weekend of you know.
speaker
So that morning at the church I serve in uptown
speaker
at Grace Trinity. Folks worshiped there and it was really joyful and
speaker
one of one of the things that I cherish most about
speaker
that day is a photo that Pam Byers
speaker
even being sick at that point made it.
speaker
And so I have this picture of the two of us together at the back of the sanctuary at
speaker
the church.
speaker
So yeah we had worship that morning and then that afternoon came over here to Westminster
speaker
and had the service and then like I said there were all these people that
speaker
came from California. And then they had actually set up because there's the live stream
speaker
there are people watching all over but including they had like a party
speaker
at St. Mark and had set up the livestream so there was like the fellowship hall was full
speaker
of people who were watching from there.
speaker
And it was pretty pretty amazing.
speaker
Yeah there was like great music.
speaker
It was fun. And I had one of the other things I the only thing
speaker
that I sort of did that was I don't know maybe a little spontaneous was right before the
speaker
the benediction you know I said something like so
speaker
now after all of this there's only one thing left to do and I
speaker
pulled out my phone and I took a picture of everyone and so I still have that picture.
speaker
I really love that. Then there was a party afterward.
speaker
We went over to a restaurant.
speaker
It was like a celebration. It was really amazing.
speaker
And someone a woman from from California was like
speaker
you're like a bride at a wedding.
speaker
Or a groom. But I'll take it.
speaker
Thank you.
speaker
But it was neat. It was like it was picked up by the local news
speaker
and a couple like gay blogs like carried
speaker
the story. I was like what.
speaker
Why. Why do you even care.
speaker
You know. And the craziest part too, not the craziest, but
speaker
one really cool thing was I had a friend in Florida who was like in
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labor in the hospital and it came on the local news in Florida like somehow
speaker
the whatever CBS affiliate in Florida decided to run this story about
speaker
a Presbyterian in Minnesota getting ordained and like it was still newsworthy
speaker
or something. So she was like I know him I know.
speaker
And her nurse came running in.
speaker
Yeah. Just kind of like wow.
speaker
But honestly it wasn't. It was just like everybody else's ordination service.
speaker
And so I kind of like that.
speaker
It was overwhelming. I mean you know at the time when they like
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they presented me with gifts you know it's like
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like stoles. I swear they laid like eight stoles over me.
speaker
Because different people have given me you know which was amazing.
speaker
And then Covenant Network. I mean this was like this was amazing that they
speaker
did this. But the Covenant Network board as a gift established
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like a scholarship in my name for
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like seminarians and other young people to come to the Covenant Network
speaker
conferences and I cannot think of like like
speaker
a more perfect gift.
speaker
Overwhelmed. Like I was floored by that.
speaker
So overwhelmed.
speaker
And yet like.
speaker
Yeah it's perfect because that you know this group had been
speaker
like the the the group that
speaker
kept me in the denomination. You know kept me from leaving.
speaker
And then in a lot of ways provided me the opportunities that have
speaker
been given to me you know. Like had it not been Covenant Network listing churches
speaker
on the website that like these are safe places for me to.
speaker
And there being one you know. Or sitting on the board
speaker
and being in in the Thompson room downstairs at Westminster and Tim saying
speaker
you should think about this position and yeah
speaker
but I probably would still be in California happily serving
speaker
and still not ordained.
speaker
So I owe a lot to Covenant Network.
speaker
So I did what I to ask then what do you think are still some of the challenges for
speaker
LGBTQ people in the Presbyterian Church?
speaker
Well I mean fortunately they're not like legislative challenges.
speaker
I think some challenges will be congregations being willing to call
speaker
gay pastors. It's hard enough
speaker
for women clergy to
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find churches that will accept them.
speaker
And I think like you know we've been ordaining
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women for a lot longer than we've ordained gay people so
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you know. That's not gay specific but I think it's just
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anyone who's not a
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heterosexual white man. You know we just have a little bit of a harder
speaker
time finding churches that are willing to call us.
speaker
I don't know. You know maybe part of it is
speaker
that a lot of churches have left. Like a lot of the other Presbyterians have left the
speaker
denomination. And so
speaker
like I said the challenges aren't legislative.
speaker
Yeah I think it's still that like changing hearts and minds that
speaker
aspect of the mission.
speaker
You know and I think I look at some
speaker
of the students who are in the seminary now.
speaker
Some of them don't even like remember those early days.
speaker
I'm sure they were barely born.
speaker
You know when Amendment B went into the Book of Order
speaker
and so in like a really wonderful blessed way they don't
speaker
have the institutional memory of like not being welcome
speaker
or like having to strategize at General Assembly.
speaker
Which isn't to say that like life will be easy for them or that the church will always be
speaker
a safe and welcoming place.
speaker
I don't know. I know and to
speaker
be fair you know I serve in a presbytery that
speaker
that is incredibly supportive.
speaker
That said there are lots of presbyteries where
speaker
people have remained Presbyterian but
speaker
they are probably still not supportive.
speaker
You know so I think I think there are a lot of conversations that still need to
speaker
be had.
speaker
And education too. You know I think at some
speaker
you know sort of the way in
speaker
the LGBTQ movement it's
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trans people who are
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who have come to the forefront of like OK let's address this issue.
speaker
And that will be interesting because you know if it's if it's hard for women in ministry
speaker
to find churches, if it's hard for LGB, you know for gay people like me
speaker
to find churches, I don't know of many
speaker
trans people who are able to live out their calling
speaker
in a congregation that is willing to
speaker
sort of say like yeah you're the person we believe God has brought to us.
speaker
So that's that's probably both
speaker
beyond the church and within the church I think that's kind of the hard place where
speaker
we are right now.
speaker
I think we've gone through all the questions I have here.
speaker
Is there anything else you want to add?
speaker
Yes I could share a
speaker
story or two.
speaker
This is one of my one of my favorite stories
speaker
about working with YADs.
speaker
So it was 2004 in Birmingham.
speaker
And that was the year that we were working on sort
speaker
of quietly supporting the PC(USA) Purity Task Force report and
speaker
I was working with the YADs with a friend.
speaker
And for whatever reason there
speaker
had been like a downsizing at General Assembly like like just G.A.
speaker
And one of the people that I think I'm remembering
speaker
this correctly but whoever it was that was working with the YADs was let
speaker
go. And so it was suddenly like they
speaker
they had one hundred seventy four or whatever heads come into the assembly
speaker
and like sort of a very disorganized effort to
speaker
work with them which was also an opportunity
speaker
for some of us who were working with the YADs for Covenant network.
speaker
And it also happened so the
speaker
GA was in downtown Birmingham and the YADs were staying about 10 miles away at two
speaker
hotels. It was like there was nothing.
speaker
There were like these. There was like a Comfort Inn and whatever.
speaker
And then a Waffle House. I mean that was that was it.
speaker
There was nothing. And so we were staying out there as well and
speaker
saw like on their daily schedule it was like after like 8:00 p.m.
speaker
kind of on the day of their orientation, kind of the
speaker
first few days when you're sort of just getting there and getting the lay of the land
speaker
before the business of the assembly started.
speaker
They just had nothing going on at night.
speaker
And we were like pool party you know.
speaker
So we went out and bought some like you know soda and snacks
speaker
and some I don't know like pool noodles or something.
speaker
We made like janky flyers that we photocopied at a Kinko's
speaker
at the time.
speaker
And so as the YADs were leaving their orientation we were like pool party tonight,
speaker
pool party tonight, pool party tonight giving out these flyers and they're like cool you
speaker
know because it's like they had something to do.
speaker
So yeah they were saying at one hotel in our hotel I say hotel.
speaker
I mean literally it was like a little roadside motel.
speaker
It was on the other side of the street and we were sort of like maybe thinking like 15
speaker
maybe we'd planned for 15-20 of these YADs.
speaker
I'm thinking that like oh Covenant Network they would be like you know.
speaker
And so we were sitting out by the pool and then look over and it was like
speaker
all hundred and seventy four of them are like crossing this busy
speaker
road to.
speaker
We're like what is going on.
speaker
So yeah we had this pool party and people were hanging out and we had music
speaker
and it was fun and they were like and what is Covenant Network.
speaker
And we're like you know it's kind of telling about you know making the church more
speaker
inclusive and I mean that was a message that was resonating with young people at the time
speaker
which you might not find surprising.
speaker
So yeah we had this this pool party and kids were playing Marco Polo and I was like
speaker
What if instead of Marco Polo, Covenant Network.
speaker
Covenant Network.
speaker
Oh gosh crazy.
speaker
They totally did that. It was amazing.
speaker
But. One of the cool parts at that assembly and then
speaker
I think 2006 was in San Jose.
speaker
I think you know and then.
speaker
Yeah. Just working with these young people.
speaker
When they realized that there were
speaker
people in the church who were supportive and that were safe.
speaker
I mean gosh I think it's 2006.
speaker
There were like 10 kids who came out to me and the person
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I was working with.
speaker
And some weren't like out to
speaker
out at church or out at home.
speaker
And I remember like just what an amazing
speaker
thing that that was that to somehow be a voice in the church that said
speaker
you know like you're loved and you're valued.
speaker
And like we're working to make a place for you.
speaker
I remember we organized like that year in 2006 a pizza party
speaker
with Scott Anderson and Covenant
speaker
Network had this like kind of a hospitality suite and it was like, no we need it.
speaker
You know we need it because we have these young people and they need a place to like get
speaker
together and meet one another.
speaker
And I am still Facebook friends with some of these kids that I have now known for like
speaker
15 years.
speaker
And you know now they're like grown and have children and you know it's like what the
speaker
heck.
speaker
Because you were 17 at the time and
speaker
yeah I think that says a lot about I think that says a lot about the Covenant Network
speaker
that like like investing resources and time and energy
speaker
to work with the YADs and I think it says a lot about sort of the connectional
speaker
nature of our church.
speaker
And like what kind of kept me in the church you know from Pam Byers
speaker
telling me like it's going to change, it's going to change to then being able to like
speaker
like kind of maybe be a small part of what keeps other kids in the church too.
speaker
I don't know. That's that's a special thing.
speaker
So you said you had another story?
speaker
Oh gosh I don't know I could probably tell others you
speaker
know from conference.
speaker
I mean the conferences were just like big parties you know in a way.
speaker
One of my favorite moments so my advisor at Princeton
speaker
Seminary was a woman named Kenda Dean
speaker
who is remarkable and yeah just like an incredible person
speaker
and a United Methodist and they obviously have their own issues right now and I just
speaker
remember so I think I was the one who kept pushing like you've got to get Kenda.
speaker
We've got to get Kenda, we've got to get Kenda. And so she spoke in Cleveland and I got
speaker
to introduce her which was really cool and she talked about how her own
speaker
thinking on the issue, and I want to say that was like 2008 maybe, how her own
speaker
thinking on the issue had evolved and part of it was like
speaker
it was just a funny moment. She said you know and part of it was just seeing like you
speaker
know faithful smart capable people
speaker
who were denied ordinary ordination all
speaker
the while you know some people who are complete morons get over it
speaker
and there's nothing we can do about it.
speaker
Yeah maybe she wouldn't be okay with me quoting now.
speaker
But it was still a really good moment.
speaker
It was like yes thank you.
speaker
You got it.
speaker
Yeah.
speaker
I could try to think of some more but there were some a lot of
speaker
really wonderful memories associated with
speaker
working together to try to make the church more generous and just.
speaker
Awesome. Thank you so much for this opportunity.

In collections

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Title: Daniel Vigilante oral history, 2019.
Description: Daniel Vigilante graduated from Princeton Theological Seminary in 2004, where he joined the student group Bisexual, Gay, Lesbian, and Straight Supporters (BGLASS). He was ordained by Westminster Presbyterian Church on August 25, 2013, becoming one of the first openly gay Presbyterian ministers to be ordained in Minnesota. In the early 2000s, he became actively involved in the Covenant Network, primarily working with Youth Advisory Delegates at General Assembly.
Creator: Vigilante, Daniel. (interviewee)
Wittrig, Elizabeth L. (interviewer)
Date: 2019
April 26, 2019
Type of resource: moving image
Genre: oral histories
interviews
Form: born digital
video recordings
Extent: 1.35 GB (1 MP4 file)
Subject names: Covenant Network of Presbyterians.
Vigilante, Daniel.
Topics: Homosexuality--Religious aspects--Presbyterian Church.
Ordination of gays.
Ordination of lesbians.
Geographic subjects: North and Central America--United States
Rights status: IN COPYRIGHT; http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Physical location: ARCHIVES 19-0505; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA
Related item: Covenant Network: The Early Years reunion records, 2019.--http://prestohost68.inmagic.com/Presto/content/Detail.aspx?ctID=Y2RiNWNk...
Identifier (local): 19-0505_CovenantNetwork_DV
PID (Persistent Identifier): islandora:153473

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