1928 and making. And,

we not only. We're not only pastor of the church there. We had a

good church. And, most of the first young people's work, but Sunday School

work and then later we developed the good adult, I mean a

good church work with the young people and the Sunday morning young

people services and adults are heavy had their services in evening

with them and and strong religious syndicational

program where the young people carried on their own work.

But what had was under the leadership of one of the

girls. In fact, the matter is her father and mother still live. Her father lives in

Yucaipa California. Reed Sal Reed. And, Phyllis

was later lost overboard at the docks there

at Cordova. But, she was a

young high school girl leading the choir and directing the music, playing

the organ. Phyllis Reed. And anyhow we had

these young folks who are part of the young church. Happened to have anywhere up to

75 on a Sunday morning. So Sunday School and young people church

and the whole time we always get together young

people we get young people bring your skis to church on

Sunday morning. And, we always grab a snack up the house and they go to hills for

skiing Sunday afternoon. And, then, then

they would be at their evening program would be Tuesday evening. And,

I had my adults also for church and then in the evening services

because the adults work in the daytime so they didn't get out me in the

daytime. First, let's check and make sure this is working.

And then, besides that, of course, I'd go

up every six to eight weeks. on the Northwestern Railroad. and, the towns would be. I visited along the railroad Chitina,

McCarthy and Kennicott. In

Kennicott. At Chitina, would have were services for the folks

in that village at Chitina, on the way north. or

the way to the mine on our going up train.

And then we usually had good turnout for them. And

the mines why I would stay over two nights and

have services at mine for the folks

down to camp and then if I stayed over more than two trains one train.

I would go to the, up to the hill to the Erie & Jumble mine, the other

mine up there and ride the ore bucket up there about four miles up the mountain

and and and have the

services in and back in the mountain there. How big was the ore bucket?  Ohhh.

It would hold a ton of ore, but that isn't very big.

You've got the middle portion down in a bucket but you're not

your head and not your feet . They hang over something and that

some kind of eye over the terrain. But

so many dovers will try to get you swinging out over the canyon there to see what will make you holler uncle.

I don't know but after all I never did. But what did you say.

say up there in the mines. it was just a bump in the night and I've had a good job

or a good place in a good place like a good place good place to be

and then come home like say after two nights up there and then

you go down to McCarthy. I had a very good

response at McCarthy, School teacher and railroad agent

. And families and the storekeepers and so on folks

and other towns people that lived there and I had a

pair of tennis and this and this little town and

down about five miles. And incidentally I'll never get over the tragedy up in

that area. I was usually called for care of the services where the tragedy.

And when funeral services and so on and so forth were on. So did you mostly go back and forth. There was a telephone line along the coast. There's

just one wire. You really had to stand

up and talk into it.

I never did get over that. Every time I get to a telephone that is far away, I still yell in

to the center you know, yell into this thing.

I still get out.

I can't help it. I just automatically will talk loud. But, we had some nice times. T

hen coming back watch it again.

I'd go to the indian village and have services for the needy just from the school area

and some of those natives, their children are still scattered around the

country and I run into them very occasionally.

And many Indians and they all I see them every once in a

while standing around over Alaska and they turn out to be pretty good Indians. And

so you're sort of gratified by your work and incidentally so some of

those other people. One of those fellows today, his uncle

was running Chitina hotel, Young Breedman for example is one of the

church folks near Seattle and when they gave us his pictures just

showing us.

So Oscar was reputed to be one of Sylvie Smith's

boys.

But the man who was always with me. A man never batted his reputation. How long were you in Cordova? How long?

Seven years. But I think that

we had some we had some good good results from that town. Very

good results. And then occasionally, I'd get out on Richardson

highway again and get a visitation and even have wire

services. And one night I remember when

we had, we had. We came in from off highway to have a big big party

because they don't get together very often in town. So they had a special train up

from Cordova. And, we said that was a  good time to have church. They haven't had church for a year

so I think I'll go and have church too. So I had church for them. And

then later they had quite a nice affair, get together for

everybody, Then, about two, midnight, someone came in, wanted me to.

They said.They want you to take him back. They want your

men, they want you to take folks back to Copper Center. And, I said,  "No that's fifty miles away

and I really want to go to bed." They said, "Well

they want you to take them up to Copper Center." Well I

who knows me do well a bunch of men out there. Well, what

car?` Well, Tony Dimond [Dimond, Anthony Joseph] is here. Tony Diaond. He's a

Washington D.C. cop. He is the congressman, of course. And I said though

Tony may not like that. Well Tom Donahue was here and he's his partner by

law. He'll, he'll give you the permit. Well I said I don't like it. Well, we'll ask Tom.

So I went and asked Tom. I said, "Tom, say no!" And, Tom said, No.  Maybe they have to get out there,

maybe we have to get out of here.

And so I came back and I said the lady at the hotel, "Give me the strongest coffee you've

got to wake me up. I'm sleepy." So I woke

up.

That's when we got to give me. Jack

lives down here. Jack passed away and she lives in town here now.

And and so she gave me some pretty good, strong coffee,

and I woke up and left  sure I could run the wheel. And you know we had

a great big Dodge or a great big Studebaker. And I think if you know

some got in that car and I found two or three cars had broken down

and. Where were you going? We were going to Copper Center. Copper Center. So I got them all to Copper Center

that night. In one car? In one car and I'm not kidding . How did you get from Cordova over to?  Did you come by

boat? Train train

train train out of Cordova. Came over to where? Chitina. To Chitina? Train

runs up there. It is a hundred and thirty miles up

there and 132 to be exact. And so

we, I took them up there and I run up the off and lay

down there for about an hour or two and finally I said well I've got to call up

somebody's. Catch them for you to leave so I went up the roadhouse there. I mean up to the road commission's

place there to do some phoning. I knew there was

a phone up there. And, when I stepped in

there I see the cook.

I said No wonder, you were anxious to get home! There was a cook, who was riding in the back seat of the

car. He was the cook in the road camp. and No wonder he was anxious to get home. He said it was out of my or he'd have to walk.

So I found out others were in the same predicament. They just had to get to work.

So I was very happy for that occasion.

And of course I was, I was a good friend of those fellows when they were on.

and I rely on other people from my heart because I hadn't really known them too much

before but so was on

with the years you know as you became acquainted with

the time. And after I was able to go out with the

fishermen, sea out the ante on picking up

salmon off the traction or I mean off the on the capture. Out on

the Prince William Sound. And they had a number of canneries, had six or eight

canneries at Cordova. And, occasionally I'd get a chance to ride

out there with the pick up boats and the cannery tenders.

And it made an opportunity to be out where the fishermen were. And, you'd just talk?

And, no. I know I did know. And, you

just visit with the men when you're out in the field that way.

And it was really very interesting and and you see them on the street and you get a chance

when they come into town again. and you're seeing. So, it was a

very. It gave me an interesting type of ministry. After

seven years, of course,  we had the opportunity to come to Matanuska Valley and, of course with Matanuska Valley,

we had a different type of

ministry with farmers coming in on the whole work opening up

and getting the farmers started there. And we

had, the first thing he had to be satisfied in being away from home with strangers. And

I thought for one thing to be happy about it was get the news. And, I had nothing

but my a seven by nine tent and I was sleeping on the ground, on a piece of.

Well, of course,  I had my bed, and I threw some straw drawn down

on the grass there. Then and then I got. I

put my radio. I had a battery set and I tied it up to the

fence, wire fence, with an aerial. I'd get Anchorage pretty well.

and I had a pretty good response on people listening in

on and all. I type the machine type the the heading that

I typed the main things that happened on the news. I typed them up and put them on bulletin

boards around so people can see what what the news is.

So these farmers away from home and they were homesick. And,

they want to know what is going on in the world. And, I figured if they knew what was going on in the world, they wouldn't be

so unhappy. And so not only did they all read it, but I

found them standing around the fence there listening to the news. I turned the thing up as far as I could. And,

they were standing around there and it was a few hundred transient men

standing around the camp, you know. and they were all in there listening to the news to

a number of them all.

So they were listening to the news. So it was a really good way to get

started. And then they had to they said well we had had Will

we need a place to convene together. And, everybody needs a place where

they can get a chance to discuss things.

And as I said I thought the management should get something

started in a way of convention site or a meeting place. And, he said well we

don't have anybody to do it. He said, well, how about you doing it? And so, I was elected

to get that thing started. And, we didn't sure didn't have any equipment, but we did have a couple of axes. and a crosscut saw, and a

couple of hammers and a bunch of men started to work. And, we cut down the logs and poles out

in the woods and scavengered the lumber.  You built the church? And

we built the first little assembly hall and that later became the hospital. Oh, it

wasn't on the present site?  No, no.

This was out in, this was out in

Doctor, in Mr. Snodgrass's field. what you made there

which is later, about where the Church of God assembles is setting right

now. It's about the same location there in Palmer. And so

that's about where we set up there. Built a building a cabin there.

I mean that's the little building here and

everything was built in there. And all in group and in there in Red

Cross met in there, the library was in there, the churches met in there. How big was it? Oh!

50 40 50 feet long and 20 feet wide or so.

and had a pretty good floor in. Can't say anything about the rest of it

but it looked more like a chicken coop than anything else..

But anyhow it held together.

And then we we helped them get.

We thought that they needed seafood so we helped them go fishing out and get the fish

started coming in. Got to fish the tides and you get fish, lots of fish in the sea

at that time. Where did you fish? Knik. and

get a couple, three hundred on a tide of

salmon. So we were able to, and brought them into in the experiment station and Mrs. Hanson showed them how to can them.

So we put up

the canned fish for them. and we had that already.

And meantime we were able to get our church work

organized a temporary and then we got a permanent organization. I went home  and got my

furniture. Got a house built by fall. Got in it about the 9th of

October. This was a log house? Now, that was a frame house I had. And,

farmers helped me build it, all the different farmers filled in. So then when they helped them build

a house.  Where was the house located? Well,  right

across from. Well we're close to

John Buggy's place and two others close to him. Well

Mrs. Coope lived in are you living in now. Yes Mrs. Cope's

living in it now. She was until recently and she isn't.

And it was. i don't know how.  They took all the

landmarks away there. but

it's about a block from the Frontier, Frontier Restaurant.  About a

block from the Frontier Restaurant. On toward Palmer. Down there, yes.

So it was yeah.

Toward Wasilla? Yes. And then later, we had church in there. and we had. We

had Boy Scout meetings in there and we had. We had Legion

meetings in the house. And, we had other kinds of meetings in there. And, everybody who

could walk into town, to get their groceries and needed a rest,  they rested  in there and then they

walked back. or I'd carry them back in the car.

And we had all kinds of groups in there. Homemakers had their meetings there.

And this is your home? This is our home.

And then later, we outgrew the house. We had, we had eighty in the house finally.

and so we went to the gymnasium. Had services in the gymnasium.

and then. At the high school?  At the high school. And,

then we went to. We started the church.

I went out to General Assembly and got permission to get so much money for the

church.

And then.

A government said well we had to set up so that

we don't just have one building. And, we would worship in one building. And

it was decided after consultation and thoughtfulness

that we better have three and they would give him one block and divide it three

ways. Which is what you have now?  Which is what we have now. Lutherans and the Catholic and the

Protestants. And then after consultation and advice they figured it would be better.

Instead of heading the way the government first wanted it as a church without any

ties at all, that they would have it but have it

under denomination and the denomination would be responsible for

it. And and and make it so that they would be

responsible to a place. That they would always have it filled and cared for and the

property would be actually cared for. And so since we were under a comity

arrangement had this area it was assigned to the Presbyterian Church.

So what money did you have? The first building, what was the first building? They allowed us

fifteen hundred dollars to build this first building. Which part of it is standing now?

Well, it is the main building. You built that for fifteen hundred dollars? Fifteen

hundred dollars and the farmers then, run in about

$3000 over. And. And so we had to get

$3,000 more. And the we paid it back by a decrease in

salary.

But you had what? About seven thousand, seven thousand five hundred?

Is that what the total you mean or what? Oh, I wouldn't say that. It was about forty

five hundred was the

amount of indebtedness as far as the Board records are concerned.

Forty five hundred. And, as far as the local people are concerned,

Nobody knows. Nobody knows. The people,

people worked and they worked hard. Men women and children men

women children. It was all volunteer work except for the paid people who worked on the truss work and the foreman.

No no no we had.

We didn't have that beginning there. We

had.

We had. We had to send out to get a septic tank, it seemed. We were not on

the sewer

line here later on.

This is 1936 we started. We finished it in the spring of 37. That didn't include the manse? No. The manse was

started in thirty-eight and finished in thirty-eight.

Yes, I lived in a house across the railroad tracks

until 38.

What did you see there for the. Did you see what they were building for the priest? That's a

mammoth thing. Lovely place.

Well. They. They carry on a lot of religious activities in those places. I can imagine.

I really religious dedication and things of every nature you know. They carry on quite an extension

programs. They don't have much in the way of a church. Oh, they don't

have it in the church, you see, practically.That church isn't. That church isn't so constructed that you could

carry it on there. You were there how long in Palmer? I was

there six and a half years. After the place was all organized. Everything

was going good. And, the buildings were all built and had good

membership and the financial condition was good, why.

I was changed over to Sunday school missions. Now, when was the

church organized? It was probably organized

in the spring of 67. Thirty-seven. May of thirty-seven. It was called the United Protestant Church at the time.

And incidentally I feel that we we talk about

ecumenicity and all the time. We keep digging away

trying to get together and yet we keep harping that this is what we're

trying to.

We're trying to. We're trying to force this thing so that we are not, saying

this is not a Presbyterian church.

Well the thing. We're undoing the thing we're trying to say we want to do,

when we had good press we never had a good organization going. And it was

Presbyterian in every sense of the word, only since we didn't labor straight

our first Presbyterian Church.

And we just had a name United Protestant church on it. But, everybody

knows it's under the Presbyterian Church because it had to be that way. It had to be that way

because it was signed up that way. And, we had the it.  And it had it to be that

way because the government said so. And, it was okayed by me by Washington

and New York [Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), Board of National Missions]  and I don't know what we're kicking about. I

really don't know what we're kicking about.

And, did they change and put Presbyterian on? They have it now they have to put the word Presbyterian on the bottom of it. And, did they do that?Well, yeah, they put

the ball on that one because

everybody, every minister that we've had is kicked about the name the word Presbyterian wasn't. wasn't

a Presbyterian church you know I think it's

unnecessary. We're were talking about ecumenical work

and it's showing the king. I said we're just a bunch of hypocrites.

Every minister we've had, has been even yelling about

that church being organized is wrong. I didn't organize it. The government said this is it or you won't get the land. See. This is it or

you can't set up the whole program at

all. You have to run this type of a program. And, we ran just this type of a program. The

government set this thing up as well as a Presbyterian church organized in New York,

in Washington and okayed by the Board in New York. You actually started the first ecumenical work in Alaska then, didn't you?

And this has worked other

places and this can work now if we let it work.

Well I don't know why we have to kick the props out, out there. I just can't figure this out.

And it makes me it makes me it hurts me and hurts the oldtimers. Don't forget that. We

heard many old timer and we heard a man who has done lots of work on that building.

I mean to say there's many a man who's put lots of time in my building and lots of

effort to build that building, knowing it was the United Protestant church built by the

farmers of that community. And, when we keep rubbing it in and saying it isn't Presbyterian, you

hurt every one of those fellows and you isolate them. See, we isolate them from that

church. And we don't do ourselves a bit of good and we don't do them any good. We

don't do our community any good at all.

And I think we're wrong.  Is this all local with local people, I mean the local minister?

It's the Presbyterian hoofla. But that must be.  That must be the people in National Missions.

I don't know who it is. Everybody who comes in there. And, everybody who comes in does the

same thing. It is the National Missions committee. It is just

not necessary. It's not necessary, It's

been that way since since I left the place. and some of them worse than others.

National Missions.  You went to the missions on the railroad?  I went on.

I went on the railroad working. And I started on the railroad working. i started. At that

time there was some construction work on and I started to go down

on the well I covered for I. I went to the coal mines

and I went to the coal mine. I was up here

and I was I was over here at Jonesville and Eska. I

was covering the gold mines was just burned. Once in a while, I'll get into Independent. On

a really lucky shot Sutton. Did you get into Sutton? Oh, yes, I went to Sutton.

and then. And then I went to Jonesville. I mean I went to

Santana. And, the wasn't operating yet.

I went to Suntrana and

and then I would get to the Healy hotel

and get to the Healy Hotel on the Alaska Railroad.

I go to that Chatinika Gold Mine. I go

to the gold mine out of Fairbanks,  about 12 miles,

that area and then I go to Fairbanks Creek.

I go to these gold mines.There were in operation? Yes, they were in there

in operation and I had and I had you in my

operating I had in Chatinika

had a little unit operating at Esther.

Yeah. And I had a little unit at Healy. I had a

little unit at Curry. Now, where did you meet when you were? At the bars/

No I had.

They had rec hals. Provided by the coal people? Well, the rec hall at

the hotel or the rec hall at the place would have. But, at the rec hall at the Santana place, for example. The rec hall

at the

coalmines and a rec hall at the dining hall and some of these places at

the mines. Well that was

later, much later and then but

it was the mostly in all these recreation halls we get

into or the dining halls.

But I always said I had always had pretty good response on a lot of

places and once in a while I even

broke into that a little bit later, Nancy,

requesting, came forward. But you couldn't push

it too fast but people would ask

about it.

They can because sometimes you do some

research before are. Are these people church people or partly not?How

you take the other.

You take the herring girls of the Fairbanks church there and Mrs. Johnson

there is one of the fine church folks of Alaska, helping me there in

Fairbanks who was out at Chatinika at the time and he'd

take some of them up

to Curry was very fine church people. or injured some woman or had

along the road were good good folks at the mines or

other places.

Mrs. Jones Evan Jones. He was so right now

and Mrs. Telan there is a daughter. she

and all of her family are scattered all around the

school. And, the people that you got going at that time, you'll

find them scattered around the United States right now in. Some you'll find

in leading positions in church work. Even though sometimes

you think you'll lose you know because they had gone, you see, but you don't.

You sent them somewhere to do something. For example, Earl Smithson

from our work in the railroad and

also from the mines. He is an elder in Lewistown, Illinois.

And here was Mrs. Davis from coal mine work. It didn't get too

much of a start before. She's one of our leading workers and elder in the church she's at in

the Northern California churches. She

was a at the Synod of California the last time I was down there. And,

she was. Once she was over in the western part of

California. She was an asset to the team due to

the Mission Board to help out because the clergy needed help there in that one

area. And so you and

somebody else saw one of the other teachers used to be there and working in a Baptist church. And

they found her working. See just getting started some time.

So  the news you highlights to the whole thing. It's not in vain? Oh, no, it was not in vain. How long? O

ver what period of time would you say you were in there? Close to 20

years. It was 20 years, so near it wasn't funny. Near twenty years. S

ince I went back home where it worked again.  It was a  good 19 years. Then. When

you went say to organize the church's college, you.

This is all that. I was working at the railroad, on the railroad and the

highway both at that time. Yes. I was working.  I worked at the highway and railroad at that time. I  had eleven hundred miles of road work. You went from Delta to Northway and beyond to the border? I

went to the border. And, at times, I went into Canada, clean down to Whitehorse.

I mean clear down to Haines Junction. Every three months

I made it to Haines Junction. You did?  I sure did. Was this ministering along the way?

I did. I had service in those places.

You did this under the auspices of the church in Canada?

I did it because no nobody was having services.

Nobody was having services And they just asked me to come down. I never stop after

the U. S. police were in there.

I never stopped. I kept right on going. And when they when they

finally got somebody come in there and pick up the services, well, then, I quit. Yes.

You had the college  church while you were doing all that too?

Well, I.  It was in nineteen forty-seven. Harry Champlain [Champlain, N. Harry] and I. We've been trying for years to get somebody to get the university work started.

And, nobody would do the advertising.

Monday Morning, and we advertised in Presbyterian Life, I guess it was. It was getting somebody to come in here  and start the university

work. Nobody would come in. Harry, he says, once, "Ah! Let's forget

it." He says, "There's a lot of people will do it after somebody goes and does

the groundwork, but they won't do it before. See. They won't do it before

then so they wouldn't do it alone.

They just.

You had to do it? Yes. So, Harry says, yes you. I'll do the work up with the students

up up on the university. You take care of the people who live around your

house.

At the university rolls. So I

called around there. I got people coming. So, every other Sunday morning, why, we'd have them in the

house. And, one Sunday morning, I'd be on the road. The

other Sunday morning, I had them in the house there and we'd have the

coffee and donuts because they bothered, missed breakfast. You had

coffee and donuts for them? And then we had Bible study and while they were

doing it and sang a couple of songs. And, from that we developed the Presbyterian church at the college, the college Presbyterian Church.

Harry Champlain is that?  Harry Champlain. Sent late to Washington. And sooner or

later they they had it all organized and

ready to go, made an application for to being set up

for as a Presbyterian church. Was he a minister? Yes, he was Presbyterian minister. And

so it's gone ever since. and I took it for a while until they got

somebody in there. Who'd they get in there, do you know? Oh they got a fellow there who ah, who ah. He

was just a young student.

But the details of the day.

We won't mention any more days. He didn't get up to early in the morning but. Well about six hundred miles or eleven hundred miles or. No! No! Let's don't talk about it. Every

time you want to get him

going in the morning. You

would have to wait for him and then you would say, if you aren't here at such and such a

time here, I'll leave you. Then he'd bring his baggage and after he was supposed bring it all to be packed, he'd still have to pack it baggage and all

. He'd tear your hair out. But anyhow.

He was ah. He'd

come in, but. We've got to go on

and get somebody else. And then Tom Tweedie [Tweedie, Thomas J.]  came in. I know Tom. and

Tom Tom did a fair job there. And Tom

went to California. Sunnier time down below. Tom is doing a pretty

good job in California right now. Tom is doing a good job back. Where is he? Marysville right now.

And so you.

Then after Tom. Stokes [Stokes, John C.] came in

. John came in. Then after John, there was Chuck. [Jenkins, Charles G.] So

they haven't had too many years.

But the railroad was your last parish here?

Well then after, I worked for eleven 10 years on the railroad, on the highway. That is, I worked

from forty-two to fifty three, That's 11 years.

And on the highway. And then

I said well you have to make a choice because that was the thing

because I couldn't continue this, you know and to do a job thorough. and

I told the railroad and the rest of them. And, I took the railroad. And,

they put somebody on

the highway, they put. In fact they put two people on the highway. One

person set down.

Didn't do his work. They were going to lose.

They lost that one. i was talking to Mr Tiber down at last office, and he was talking about how you used to ride the rails. Well, we had

a lifetime. Did you hold services in the boxcars too?

Oh, I held services in the worktrains, you see. Oh, yeah.

I had a good deal with them. I carrying.I

was carrying. I always carried a projector

with me.

and had movies with me and with Bible stories. Cathedral films

with me. and Bible stories and other

Bible the Bible songs, you know. And it made a good deal that way.

And then then I carried Board of National Missions film, some church film

. Then, I'd probably carry a travelogue. So we really have a good evening program. We had to

everybody to everybody there. You tried to meet their needs, really.

I would figure that's what they should have.

You were involved in church renewal, Bert. Isn't that amazing!  They may not have called it that. Everything you have talked about is church renewal, ecumenicity. Well, i don't know what it was.

. Everybody was there. Everybody was there.  Everybody except the night watchman, and he came in when he could when he could see. Are there

any particular incidents that are really outstanding? Nothing outstanding at all.

and

see nothing else.

Everybody had a good time. It was grand and glorious for thirty-nine

years, thirty years. You didn't mind the cold weather or the snow shoes? Oh, no, No.

Never minded. I never saw a colder than 83 below.

Yet. Where was it eighty-three below? Tok. Was it really? Could you

be outside? Well I went out, believe it or not. You're just talking back and forth anyway, Norma. and

I never heard him say

did it on our girls I said I

thought they never thought He was trying to ask me how cold it was. I said I never saw it colder than eighty-three below..

Mrs. Pulse told me up at Bingen that it was eighty-nine once. one winter.

What about Eagle?  Is the building still there that

I know the Episcopal folks we changed them

and built different buildings and then they have the building that's

slightly different than what they were when they organized the church. Yes.  But the building.

that was there, is there, but it has been changed? Well I think

it's on the same spot, but I think it has been rebuilt. Oh, a different building. Yeah, I think it is a different building

. It has been rebuilt.  Did you know we had a share of the manse at Eagle?  he was up there one day. He

saw a picture sitting. He had the picture. He had the book. And,

the chair was in the picture in the same spot in the in the church, or the manse

I guess it was, and you can have it. We're just going to throw it

out. So, Ralph has got that old chair from that manse at Eagle. I think they was rubbing mabel w

ill tell you who is there.

She had a history of that and we had a man there all right. And

he was there and there were quite a few, quite a few people there,

hundreds of people there at one time at Knik. In fact, it was quite a seaport.

Boats were coming right in up there to the where Alexson's house used to be

right there. It was a dock up there.

Now the mud is right up there you know and it's filled in.

So it is time to rebuild that, I understand

I don't know how they could because they might have blown down a little bit since the earthquake but it might

be able to get something in.

I don't about that, but I mean the town itself.  A lively ghost town. A lively ghost town.

Bert, what about King's Lake and the Presbyterian influence and background?

Well, it was our. First place, I tried to get

that first place I started when I first went to Palmer.

I bought some land to figure a place for youth work.

No no the first place I bought thirty two acres of land.

Personally? Personally. Right outside the right along beside

the river, the Matanuska River and I

there was there a flue there, right off from the river

and I intended to use Cambon up there and use that for youth work.

And I was going block, throw a couple trees in there to  block things, so that the river would never

cut those down through there  and cut my land away.

But we had an engineer by the name of Donald McDonald who threw two trees in above the river bridge,

to repair the bridge

to throw the current off to get work on the bottom of that bridge and he threw that

current right on the other side of that river and he threw it right back and he took he took

the whole sluice to land right away away from me.

And he stepped out. he started road running right down my slew.

And when I got done, I lost not only the land beyond this slew,

but I lost part of the Land inside that slew.

So I said well all this is gone now. I can't do a thing about it.

So I said well I just might as well forget the land.

So I started looking for a spot to have I  camp on the

lake. Mrs. GARNER and the professor from and eastern

university and I went out looking for a lake and we found, after we looked

at two or three lakes, we found Kings Lake. And, we asked Mrs. King and Clyde if

they wouldn't be

wouldn't give us land that land or give us to sell to us or something. They were homesteading? They were homesteading

on. They said they had the same idea. They wanted a camp there. They want to

build it for themselves. I said, Well, fooey.  how about going together with this thing?

After a year we talked them into it. And so there that's why they are

always on the Board. No. Their names are still on the Board; their

children are still on the board. By law they have to be

on board. And, did they give the land? They gave us the land. They gave us about eight and a

half and they gave us three acres.

And the main buildings of Kingslake are laying on their, on the land that they

gave us. Which says that they must be on the board.

Our main buildings are on their, on their gift of land. But then

we later the bank of Alaska and the first national

bank each gave us $4000. And they were

going to buy we were going to put up the central building

there for a dining hall and administration and housing and so on. We're

going to put up a big building. And lo and behold,

we had. We had T

his farm came up sale. And, it was $9,500 something like that. That was on a part of

the lake? On a part of the lake.  On the King property? It was all. It was

all King property. All of King's property.

And so I said to different one's concerned.

thank you. I said to everybody concerned. I said

we have an end of it. Do you let

that go? We have no assurance that somebody won't pick that thing

up and put some kind of a joint on that, that we aren't in favor of. So everything want to do and have at Kingslake.

We need to take our money that we have now and buy that property and

pay. pay hard cash for it

right now before anybody changes their mind. And, that is what we did.

Is that all the property now? Oh yes. We own it except one little spot over there, that belongs to

Shaw. That's right.

And we knew we. And so,we had. We let it. One time it belonged to Bill Head

and wish to have had arrangements

made to go ahead for a certain stipulation that we would gut it.  That

would be donated to us change the way the shop

bought it from Bill. But we never got it. So we

never got it. Somehow it was never consummated.

So we never did get that fill in and now we are having

more difficulties in getting it before.

But I still think it would be possible if we if had approached the thing in a way that

we set out in the first place because.

We have. We have a great acreage of land that's next to the Morris

property over there,  see that we'll never could use or would use because it is a total strip of land

and its a, it's

a half of that road to the other side over there

and half of that road to the other side would be, would be,

quite a strip of land there.

And I know and

that we could we could

use that land for it for a good

trade.

See. Was that far across the river? It was across the river from the King property.

what would be right in line with what he would use it

for. When you say "he," is this Kingslake that owns it? Kingslake owns it. How many acres is there at King's Lake?

Oh, couple hundred,

hundred fifty. I don't know. Couple hundred.

I think that I think that would be a possibility to approach it from that angle. I

suggested it a number of times. But somebody said they approached him that way, but they just. They

talk about it but then never had to actually sit down and ask the

man do you want to trade?

They go to work and talk about it. They don't go and say,

do we go want to trade? And, do they go to the man and straight out about the problems they had. We we

talk about it, but we don't talk to him.

And that, that sort of complicates things to us.  Well, did you start the first

building there at Kings Lake. We started the first building period that

we started the first building. What building better than

the Girl Scouts did. Well I'm putting myself of course bringing all that stuff in.

1937. This is when you first went

in. Yes. In 1937 we put the first building up. We had

just. We had a slab lumber we put in there a short clip four-foot boards. We put

up. We  put up this framework first and then we put a four foot

slab board. We sure did.In

and we had. We put a camp in there. And, we had a pretty good camp

in there in 1937..

You know the future

you have a hard thing. Did you, too? But in nineteen.

but in 30

and thirty seven thirty eight,

we put up the first permanent building and that building stands today. Which one is that? That

old building right in the middle. That is the old lodge? That is the old lodge. We built it in 1938.  Then we added to it.

And we had it to look at.

That's right. We added to it.

And, Nick Johnson took a whole lot of bottoms

and tops from knocked down quonsets, or

knocked down Parambular tents

from Green Lake over here from my from I

picked up in 1944 45 from over here.

in Anchorage. and transported up to Kings Lake. And,

he he built the additions to it to the Kings Lake dining hall.

He put on the thing on the inside of the dining hall there. He

showed up to the time he put

the slab there. The slabs or two were there. Miss Atwood would

skin those logs or skin those slabs with a dull knife. Bob Atwood's wife?

Yea. Have you read her book

when she interviewed you. Did she interview you? No.

She was remembered about you. No. Whether or

not she did. I thought she did a fair job on that, a very good job, I think.

For.

Me. You

know I don't miss you

on that night. Retirement. i don't think he was kidding. No. I don't think Ms. Fahr was kidding. On Mt. McKinley, on the night you came back from Palmer and stopped there at Leaphorn. it just looked like  all  that God had left all three of those mountains up there for you to see. It was just beautiful

You had to share those pictures because you took pictures all over the place. You really enjoyed it then?

. Did I give you a copy of the itinerary?

you might have, but I don't think so, because I would have received it by this time. Well, he

was gone, though.

All right.

He was gone. He was gone. Let me see. That's right. We had planned to do this. Everything

how you came up here. I think I told you

I saw you right.

I saw you. i saw him. Well

when you

label things like, Well, maybe you were tired and didn't?

But I kept coming back and then looking at the camp after

the other ministers were there. I love them and they put the camp out . Nick Thompson

did a lot of work on that camp. Brian Cleworth [Cleworth, Brian H.] did a lot of work in that camp.

And then he was pastor here. And, of course, other ministers

did too. Often that often and the Church of God

men did a lot of work there.

But

but I didn't do too much until fifty-five.

I run it, I worked on it for a two-thirds,, for a third, for a half of a season. And then I

went back and I went back on the road again and

then took. Well I didn't do anything until sixty, sixty-one, I guess I came down.

Sixty

six I came down to do so and stayed with. 61 62

63. I think I finally quit in 64

and went up more them. And then

finally quit in sixty-four. I was going up north and was working at Harding Lake

and

I was working there. Mr. Pritchard asked me to take the,

take the railroad work and I worked there to 65

and 65 and I came down here and worked to make sure that till the

spring of 66 and then went up

to.

19 well, when

Harry Champlin and I walked across Harding Lake

when we were in the mid 40s, I think. we were looking

for a campsite for Harding Lake, in that area. And we walked

across that ground. he walked on he walked on skis, another fellow had snow shoes.

you know I like to kill myself with three miles over and three

miles back across that lake.

And we found our way. We found a place where we wanted to run a camp, you know. On

there on skis and on

went up to the woods, we found this lion you know. We found the

place that we wouldn't select, and put our application into the government or be told after we

put our application. And, we found we got on a town site. We found

they had laid a town out there. He called and there were some cabins, you know, all at this point.

So they asked us to settle

for a place next to it. Well I wasn't so

keen about it but Tom Tweedie [Tweedie, Thomas J.] says I think you you should take that because it was very next to us. I

t was actually a lot better

than where they were they are. I got it Tommy. He

doesn't hit the ceiling. He doesn't hit the floor sometimes altogether on both feet.

I don't know but whether that's right or not, but

anyhow, we had no choice about the thing.

And I got back I'm looking at it again one day. And I said I think my goodness, Tom had something.

So we'll better see whether we can get not only one eighth of an acre

I mean one eighth of a quarter, to give us a quarter

of a quarter we'll take it. And so we put an application in for the width of a quarter. The government didn't

like to give a church the width of a quarter. Said,

well we won't do that unless you make it a universal. So

we 've taken everybody.

So we made accommodation like for my team or everybody will

be ours.

We got the quarter, we got the whole outfit.

And and they they

they bought it. And, we built it. and to town the whole

town responded. What did it cost, do you remember? We

paid $2200 practically in round figures for that land.

It had a good bag. Twenty two hundred dollars with us we cost to

that land. And, but that's that we had.

Thirteen hundred feet of Lake front, that I thought Is that what it is now?

Thirteen hundred feet of lakefront. That's a lot of lakefront. Particularly when it isn't valuable.

Well we hadn't done it

but then we worked along there, and we built our

camp, and we worked hard on it. then the other thing `and then they

offered goof off. And, found the Presbyterians doing the work. And, the other, the Episcopals,

paid quite a little bit of money though and Lutherans paid quite a bit of the money, but

they, they were short on the work. But I

don't know why I kept some things you can't go on messing around and we simply

did not get the cooperation

that we should have gotten in the way of the thing.

And the way it was happening was this. We

had business meetings come up and board of directors meetings and.

And. And they were calling for the board of directors meeting and they were having

momentous decisions made in those board meetings to make them. And

one man and he was our man was doing the calling of these meetings.

And I mean making the decision and not having any big response

I mean carry the responsibility without more decisions. You can't do that.

You just can't do that. And I said one of the

board members came up he said. He said you know we have my own property

that's valued at a certain figure. Of course he said in our mind I was

involved in this thing. If one person would get drowned, they could sue us

because we, this board, did not decide that issue. A

nd it is a piece of a problem that would be responsible for  that child's death. We

would be responsible, see? And we are, have not made

a decision. And, we are allowing that thing to happen. And,

I couldn't get him to have a board meeting and he was making decisions

so I could get I couldn't fight John. I couldn't fight John.

He was a law unto himself and he would never listen to anybody. So there was

one answer. Take it myelf. So and put it on the presbytery and let the presbytery be responsible.

And if anybody was going to be sued, let the presbytery be sued.

Let the presbytery be sued.

That was my answer to it rather than let some

some person else in some innocent person that helped us

finance that thing get started get the one thing I didn't know whether anybody

will be. I'm telling you that.

I mean I have never told anybody else that, except Cleworth [Cleworth, Brian H.]

But that is the basis of it. Well now, the original sum of money that was paid on an ecumenical basis, how did it swing over to sole Presbyterian ownership?

Because we then took it over and assumed all the debts.  And paid all the bills. Yes. They did, but

we had to guarantee we'd give them camping the same as we would for twenty-five years. For twenty-five years?.

I didn't realize that was originally an ecumenical venture. For

25

years. Well

yes it does.

That's why that was done. But

what that meant that was the

reason why that thing is taking the trend it has.

And I think it was a wise move because then it would, we need their campers

because if we don't have any campers, they would.

And, since we've had it why. Of course, I

didn't feel that we could have done a better deal, we could have made a better arrangement than

we did because we

have land that separated across the fire

trail that is next to Bill Green over in there that I

feel we could sold to the Episcopalians who wanted

to set up a home for their missionary

coming in off of furlough, coming in on furlough for just a couple of weeks

rest from off the field in the Arctic. All

right. And let him set up a house. And so they can put

their. But for camping they would use our camp,

but make a guarantee that they would have camps over there. But they would use

our camp.  But. but only have that for their

rest camp, see? See what I mean? and use. But you

couldn't dicker with them on that. But, you tell them that

property for use and then

they would never bother the townspeople. I mean

the other houses over in that area and they wouldn't

be and they would be quiet over there, because they want quiet when they're.

when they're resting, see? They want quiet.

So I think that I think that would be all right you know.

And Brian [Cleworth, Brian H.] wanted land over there. Brian's church has given thousands of dollars

and I mean thousands of dollars. And Brian could have between Brian

and and the Episcopals they could have

pay. the best we even had.

But do you suppose I could budge those guys?

No sir! Not one foot is going to anybody.

John? But where is John? California. But would it?  The council meeting?  The head of John before presbytery?

You'll get nothing in this presbytery. If you don't. I is a little

fella they give anything to the big boys

across. I don't belong to the Council. You can't get anything inside that Council.

you. I don't even get my face on that board.

I can't help it. That just the same I guess just the fact you're

running an oligarchy. And, you won't get inside that oligarchy. They set that thing up.  And, who set it up? John set it up. T he

council, you mean? Now, you're not talking about presbytery? I'm

talking about presbytery.

I'm talking about the board.   The presbytery council is so set up

But she wanted to know

why he couldn't get that through a Presbytery. And, I said,  you just couldn't. How can you

get into a Presbytery, get anything discussed. Every time anything comes up to presbytery, it's all everything you only get the bare

things. This is done and that's done and this is done.

You don't know one thing that goes on. And, I bet you don't know anything that's going on

either. No, sir! They don't tell you one

thing. They don't tell you anything. You don't know what

happened to. Well, the Harding Lake board, didn't they decide to take that risk?

But you're snuggled up you don't get information and neither does anybody else. Well, the information would have to come right from the Board. But, you don't. You

don't need to think that that outfit is going to give you anything? Well, that is not? Is it all Presbyterians on the Harding Lake board?

Well. On the Harding Lake board? Well, there are supposed to have been. All Presbyterians? Yes. There might be one very, one culprit who isn't, but most everybody else is. I thought there were supposed to be others?

No I don't think so.

No sir.  No sir. They have one from Allison

But no they

don't.

As I say. I many a time I would have liked to really said

something. They go quiet, quiet. Why rock the boat?

. Why rock the board?Sometimes the boat needs to be rocked. This is a strange place. It just won't pay to rock the boat. But

that's. I just feel that somethings  will go

out some day. And someday you'll. You know,

I have seen people come and go and I have seen pr

oblem solving by people leaving.

Did you know  Lula Fairbanks? Oh yeah.

Bob Firth knows him,  her I mean . He said she is up at Buffalo.

He thought if maybe I interviewed her? She should know. She should have a great deal of

information because she'd been in Alaska week so long. Was she, was she a relative of the

person for whom Fairbanks was named? I think. Yes. Fairbanks was somebody,  a senator from Indiana? No,

No.

I'm thinking. I was talking to a sister that Bev Richardson had. How'd

that work.

Well the reason why I say

it is because she was to be elected, she's supposed

to come from Willisville, Ohio. And she is relative

of Fairbanks, and Fairbanks is originally

from Ohio. That's great. And so my mother went to

what I had to dealings with them in school, the Fairbankses, and. Northern Ohio, Northern Ohio,

see.

So they're right around that whole area. i missed it with Indiana. Well, they

asked her what she came from and she said you wouldn't know it anyhow. She said, well what place in Ohio? Well, what town in ohio? You wouldn't know that little place. Well,

tell you all tell me what it is. Well Willersville. Well, that is really too

close to home. i could walk over to it practically. She had seen it many times.

Yeah I used to. My dad used to work for Sam. and you guys do that with all the people. Is he elderly?He's

the old man. Well, that doesn't tell me a thing, because I don't know how old

you are. I am 71 this month. Are you really? and it's great. When

you go on a trip, when you are in Southern California, do you have slides and talk about Alaska?

Why don't I have opportunities

when people want and

just to be with them more than a play.

You know. Are the things? The Questions different? I mean if you go to two or three different places, do they ask you about the weather, about the Eskimoes, about the things . I think

they are mad about this.

It makes you smile because, after all, the sun increases and decrease

down here, doesn't it? As far as it is getting light and dark.

Yes. We'll go up there on it.

So, it increases at Fairbanks seven minutes each day and decreases by seven minutes a day. Down in the Anchorage area by four to five.

They use that on the trail but they're made out of

the building material. But they make sod up against them to

keep the weather out, keep them warm. And of

course as ice blocks, ice blocks, put ice around them to keep

them warm. But we're just building a small house.

That's all right.

out on the trail when you're out. And then, you are really building, because you build them fast.

What do you do, pack the ice? You don't cut it, do you? You cut it. You have to

have an axe to cutting it, particularly the dome. It

sort of wedge shape so you could set it in.  So it won't fall in? Some people really want to

Quite so. Quite so. I had a good

time in Phoenix and Las Vegas.

our first trip was to Las Vegas. I had a good trip to Las Vegas,  had good reception there.

Very good. A

Beautiful church.

Yes. I think he was already in it. Well,

I'm not sure about that. I forgot about where it was. Westminster. Second Church? Talk about where it was. I

think I think he is in it. I'm not sure about that, but I think he is in it.  I think so.

Humiliating.  You should see all the cherry pie I ate.

Well I don't know

whether you know anything more about that Alaska Highway work or not. But

we had that. We had to work on the

highway during the war you see. We had covered

all those construction camps there with the

with the Ivor and Green. Ivor and Green hired a

man with the chaplain. hired a Presbyterian minister incidentally

and. From Iowa. and forget his name right now.

And and he came up in and he stayed until October, and he went

south. So, I took the work for the winter. And

then, we had a Presbyterian chaplain from

New York with the negro troops up here and

the 97th Engineers. And he was a good

chap but he was pretty much grounded because of poor

equipment. His equipment was really old and poorly and he couldn't get around too much.

So I covered a lot of the camps for him. Now this was where? Along the