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Edwin Bethea oral history part 2, 2023.
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- speakerWell, I
- speakerthink my aunt and
- speakerabout my
- speakeraunt and my father's mother, or
- speakeraunt,
- speakerconvinced him that he ought to keep
- speakerthe dog because he was kind of
- speakera part of the family.
- speakerHe grew out of eating chickens
- speakerand stuff.
- speakerBut my father came
- speakerdown.
- speakerI think the part about the muzzle
- speakershe might have missed.
- speakerThe what?
- speakerThe part about the muzzle.
- speakerI think. I heard that there was a
- speakermuzzle. But I don't know what
- speakerhappened to the dog.
- speakerHe grew out of a muzzle because
- speakerhe got to be a dog and then
- speakerhe got to be a contributing
- speakerfactor to the community. Because he
- speakerwas a good hunter and
- speakerand a protector.
- speakerSo.
- speakerBut the thing that I was going to
- speakersay was that
- speakermy father came down one summer
- speakerand I must have done something
- speakerthat I shouldn't have done so he was
- speakergoing to to whup me.
- speakerAnd the dog was laying in the yard in his place.
- speakerAnd so my father was going to do
- speakerthis. And he jumped up on my
- speakerfather's chest.
- speakerHe said, "uh uh that ain't going to happen."
- speakerBut he was a contributing
- speakerfactor. My point was that
- speakereverything ended.
- speakerAnd in the end, the area and
- speakerthe farm in the family had a
- speakercontributing factor.
- speakerYou weren't contributing.
- speakerYou don't have any reason to be
- speakerthere. So
- speakerthat made a point to me
- speakerin terms of there
- speakerwas a need that if you want to
- speakerbe a part of.
- speakerCommunity.
- speakerFamily or something you have
- speakerto have a contribution.
- speakerYou have to have a contributing
- speakerattitude about the whole process.
- speakerSo and
- speakerthe other thing I didn't think about
- speakerthis until very recently about this,
- speakerbut.
- speakerMy uncle,
- speakermy father's oldest brother,
- speakerwent to college.
- speakerHis sister went
- speakerto college. Finished college and got a degree.
- speakerNow, that was unheard
- speakerof in that era that you
- speakercould acquire enough money
- speakeror resources
- speakerto get those individuals
- speakerto have education
- speakerat that level at that time.
- speakerAnd basically, it was,
- speakeras I said before, it was
- speakerrare. And I'm not trying to make
- speakera lot.
- speakerThis white guy a exception
- speakerto the whole process.
- speakerBut he was in a sense, and
- speakerI'm connecting that to the fact that
- speakerhe may have been Presbyterian
- speakerand had the principles
- speakerof Presbyterian in terms of helping
- speakerand building and so forth.
- speakerBecause not only did he do this in
- speakerWilcox County, but he certainly
- speakerpartnered with people throughout
- speakerNorth Carolina and South Carolina
- speakerestablishing education facilities
- speakerfor Black people.
- speakerSo.
- speakerThat's the thing that I think I
- speakerwould have to
- speakerget on the witness or something.
- speakerBut that's that's my that's,
- speakerthat's the contribution that I see
- speakerand the connection to the Presbyterian
- speakerChurch that
- speakerI kind of have a
- speakerattachment to.
- speakerAnd a linkage to is probably a
- speakerbetter, better word than anything
- speakerelse, because that's what I prefer.
- speakerAnd
- speakerfor me to find
- speakerthat same kind of attitude
- speakerat North Avenue Presbyterian Church because
- speakerthey are have been a church that.
- speakerThat I found to be
- speakerexemplary of the same kind of
- speakerprinciples.
- speakerIt's not the same thing throughout
- speakerthat there are three major
- speakerPresbyterian churches, four I guess
- speakerit is in Atlanta.
- speakerAnd I know I've
- speakerexperienced the same kind
- speakerof experience
- speakerI would experience with at
- speakerleast three of them.
- speakerNorth Avenue Presbyterian Church has
- speakervery much similar kind of
- speakerattitude to a public
- speakerand receptiveness
- speakerof everybody that comes to that
- speakerchurch.
- speakerSo that is that
- speakerhas brought that element
- speakerof Presbyterian aspect
- speakerto to me, and
- speakerI've seen that exhibited.
- speakerSo that's what they try to do.
- speakerOne other question that I kind of
- speakerthought about was I know
- speakerit was mentioned before that,
- speakerand I know this from history that
- speakerthe 15th Street Presbyterian Church
- speakerwas one of the most prominent
- speakerBlack Presbyterian churches in the
- speakerWashington, D.C.
- speakerarea.
- speakerAnd I kind of wondered
- speakerwhat was was there any
- speakersense
- speakervalue of
- speakerthe church? Was it all about or did
- speakerthey focus on community outreach
- speakerthere? Or I know sometimes
- speakerthose type of institutions can be
- speakerkind of you know, they're not
- speakerthey don't welcome everybody, you
- speakerknow? Yeah.
- speakerWell, I think that to
- speakersome degree, 15th street
- speakerPresbyterian Church was some of
- speakerthat.
- speakerBut as as in
- speakerWashington, D.C., I think
- speakerthat my father
- speakerbeing the person that was an
- speakeroutgoing and
- speakerbut he
- speakerdidn't let things stop him it didn't
- speakermake any difference whether you were
- speakerwelcome or not.
- speakerHe tried to be part of the operation
- speakerand wanted to be part of the
- speakeroperation that would give them the
- speakermost prestigious
- speakerconnection to the community he
- speakercan have.
- speakerSo I think he chose 15th street
- speakerPresbyterian Church
- speakerbecause of that.
- speakerI'm not sure that we
- speakerhave the same status
- speakerbecause a lot of people in
- speakerthe 15th street, there
- speakerwere lighter skinned people.
- speakerSo, you know.
- speakerThat doesn't necessarily fit well
- speakerin that era.
- speakerBut he didn't let that bother
- speakerhim. Nor did he have an attitude
- speakerabout folks? He said, "You know,
- speakerthis is my church."
- speakerSo this
- speakerso the Presbyterian Church
- speakerwas aggressive, I think,
- speakerand and outgoing
- speakerin terms of that because in
- speakerthe
- speaker49 and 50s and so
- speakerforth when
- speakerall the churches were not going to
- speakerat least the students
- speakerI mean the members of the family,
- speakerthey had summer camps and everything
- speakerelse. And a lot of the summer camps
- speakerwere integrated to the degree
- speakerthat Black
- speakerfamilies and white families children
- speakerduring that time still were
- speakermingled together.
- speakerSo it gave you
- speakeran opportunity to see
- speakerand be a part of that.
- speakerAnd it was preparation for what was
- speakerto come so
- speakerthat when the integration and so
- speakerforth came to you that you didn't
- speakerhave any reluctance or
- speakerfear about it because you at least
- speakerhad some exposure to that activity
- speakerbefore.
- speakerWell.
- speakerYou.
- speakerCan you hear me now?
- speakerYeah, I can hear you now.
- speakerOkay.
- speakerSo my my next question
- speakeris just about,
- speakeryou know, I guess in terms of your
- speakerexperience with that
- speakerchurch and, you know, with other
- speakerchurches,
- speakerespecially with the summer camps
- speakerthat were integrated.
- speakerDid you
- speakerat the time, did you feel that that
- speakerwas exceptional?
- speakerDid you, recognize that that was
- speakerit?
- speakerYeah, it was.
- speakerDid you feel that way?
- speakerYes I knew
- speakerthat was an exposure that
- speakerwasn't in traditional kind of
- speakerthings.
- speakerSo but it
- speakerbut to me and
- speakerI think to my family, it was
- speakerwe were focused
- speakeron what was to come
- speakerand preparing you for that
- speakerkind of a different kind of
- speakeractivity, which I
- speakerdon't think that everybody at
- speakerthat time had that kind
- speakerof viewpoint.
- speakerSaw a necessecity for that.
- speakerYeah. I noticed in your last
- speakerinterview you mentioned about
- speakerthe importance of having a vision,
- speakerand it seems like maybe,
- speakeryou know, that that's something that
- speakerthe folks are trying to focus on now
- speakerin terms of bringing in younger
- speakermembers into the church.
- speakerYeah.
- speakerKind of a vision point for what
- speakerwhat what could be instead
- speakerof just focusing necessarily on what
- speakeris. Right?
- speakerOne other question I have for
- speakeryou. If you wanted to share
- speakerwith the with the fact that J.
- speakerHerbert Nelson is stepping down
- speakeras the stated clerk,
- speakerI was wondering if you had any
- speakerreflections about him
- speakeror about his legacy or anything
- speakeryou might want to share?
- speakerNo, I don't.
- speakerI have kind of avoided getting
- speakerinvolved with the administrative
- speakeraspect of the Presbyterian Church.
- speakerAnd people members
- speakerof my church have been asking me to
- speakerbecome deacons and elders
- speakerand so forth and I kind of refused
- speakerand stayed out of.
- speakerI have been involved with
- speakertrying to express
- speakermy opinion about where the church is
- speakergoing with the board
- speakermembers and to elders
- speakerin place.
- speakerIn fact, when I first got to North
- speakerAvenue Presbyterian Church we
- speakerhad a very good minister, who is no
- speakerlonger there at
- speakerthis time. But
- speakerI always felt that Black
- speakerpeople in the church were always
- speakerbeing exposed to what white folks
- speakeralready had. I never accepted that.
- speakerSo I
- speakerorganized and got them
- speakerto get together a group of people so
- speakerthey can visit Atlanta University
- speakerand see the experience.
- speakerHave them have that experience
- speakerand that generated into
- speakerat least for
- speakera couple of years having
- speakerthat
- speakerthe congregation and some of the
- speakercongregation at least visiting
- speakerAtlanta University's
- speakercomplex to find out what they were
- speakerall about because we
- speakerwere always going to something that
- speakerwas majority white.
- speakerAnd I thought that they
- speakerdid not have the same kind of
- speakerunderstanding of what the
- speakersignificance was and how
- speakerblacks education
- speakerlevel and quality
- speakerwas probably far better than some of
- speakerthem. That when I said, Well, let
- speakerme see if I can help them understand
- speakerthat aspect by getting them
- speakerto come over and start visiting and
- speakeractivities on at Spelman
- speakerand the Atlanta
- speakerUniversity Complex.
- speakerBut I have refused
- speakerto get involved in
- speakerthe administrative level
- speakeror advisory level of the
- speakerPresbyterian church.
- speakerResisted.
- speakerWell, that's refused.
- speakerYou've resisted it, more than
- speakerrefused it.
- speakerOkay, well, it's kind of a both.
- speakerResist. Yeah, yeah,
- speakeryeah.
- speakerWell, you know, you're not the only
- speakerone.
- speakerI've done a few interviews with
- speakerfolks where they just they just felt
- speakerthey didn't feel called to that
- speakeraspect of the church.
- speakerYou know?
- speakerYou didn't have my say.
- speakerSo it wasn't going to make a whole
- speakerbig difference in terms of how they
- speakerhandled it. So.
- speakerAnd as I said, to Wendell and
- speakersome other people, I did an
- speakereducation in white folks during the
- speakerfifities in is
- speakerso my time for educating
- speakerwhite folks. At this particular time.
- speakerThat wasn't my
- speakerobjective.
- speakerSo I didn't have a
- speakerwhole thing about trying to
- speakereducate them or defend
- speakerthe things that were going about in
- speakerterms of trying to
- speakerget them to see my point of view.
- speakerOne, I guess.
- speakerThe example of that kind of thing in
- speakermy opinion, in fact the pastor that
- speakerI was telling you about, who I
- speakerthought was an aggressive pastor, he
- speakerdidn't retire, he really resigned because
- speakerof other things that were going on
- speakerin his life at the time.
- speakerBut he was saying to me
- speakerwhen the when the movie
- speakercame out about Red
- speakerTails,
- speakerthe Black Pilots
- speakerand World War Two,
- speakerhe said to me,
- speakerhave you are you going to see
- speakerthis? I say, No, I don't have to go
- speakersee it. I know about it, you know,
- speakerSo you need to go see it so you can
- speakerget educated about it.
- speakerBut I don't have to go to the movie
- speakerbecause I already know I had seen
- speakerthe movie before anyway.
- speakerBut as I said I didn't need to
- speakergo see the movie, I know what it was
- speakerabout, you know.
- speakerSo it's that kind of
- speakermy
- speakerrefusal outlook to you.
- speakerI guess my decision not
- speakerto be involved in that,
- speakerbecause I did a lot of that during
- speakerthe fifties in the civil rights
- speakermovement and community organizing
- speakerand so forth, designed to get
- speakerwhite people to understand that
- speakerthe education qualities that Black
- speakerfolks had probably were superior
- speakerto what they did and
- speakerthe experience that they got from
- speakerthat was probably that they didn't
- speakerhave to go through.
- speakerSo in, you
- speakerknow, in my face again this time.
- speakerEdwins family was
- speakerwas significantly involved in
- speakerthe Presbyterian movement and the
- speakerchurch.
- speakerAnd Edwin did not necessarily
- speakerembrace that kind of
- speakerattitude about.
- speakerYou know, connection with the
- speakerMethodist church with
- speakerthe Presbyterian.
- speakerWell.
- speakerYeah, well, you know.
- speakerYeah, y'all will, forgive me.
- speakerI'm a serious Methodist boy, but
- speakerhe never did embrace that.
- speakerSo I looked up more
- speakerinformation on the folks
- speakerthat you're asking about than he
- speakerdid. But he.
- speakerEdwin benefited from.
- speakerThe whole.
- speakerOne of his favorite terms, this
- speakerprocess. He benefited from the whole
- speakerprocess.
- speakerAnd so I would suggest to you
- speakerthat a number of the things
- speakerthat I have just recently sent
- speakeryou would help to answer
- speakersome of these questions more
- speakerdirectly, because Edwin
- speakerdoesn't. He didn't want to be a
- speakerdeacon, and then an elder, and he
- speakerjust didn't want to do all that.
- speakerAnd they have asked him to do it.
- speakerAnd, you know, I'm
- speakerquite the opposite.
- speakerI've been everything I could be
- speakeraccepted for except the President of the women's organization.
- speakerSo.
- speakerYou know.
- speakerYeah.
- speakerAnd I don't mean to interrupt
- speakerwithout trying to clarify
- speakersome things, but
- speakeryeah, I don't I don't think he is
- speakeraware of the person that you're
- speakerasked about as much as
- speakerI am. But that's just because you
- speakerknow he's not into the
- speakeradministrative
- speakerfunctional aspects
- speakerof Presbyterianism he just worships
- speakerand serves and that's
- speakerit.
- speakerWell, you know, that's an important
- speakerpart of it. I mean, I think that
- speakerthat's one of the things that there
- speakeris kind of a disconnect.
- speakerI think, you know, my official
- speakeroffice or professional capacity
- speakeris with the Presbyterian Historical
- speakerSociety. So I kind of work in
- speakerthat administration.
- speakerSo I'm in that world all the time.
- speakerBut there is a disconnect sometimes
- speakerbetween, you know, the
- speakeradministrative offices and then,
- speakeryou know, the folks in the pews.
- speakerAnd that's one of the things we need
- speakerto work on, you know, as an
- speakeradministrative office to kind
- speakerof like build more connections, I
- speakerthink, with with,
- speakeryou know, our members.
- speakerSo, yeah, I understand that
- speakercompletely.
- speakerOkay.
- speakerWell, we are closing
- speakerin on just over
- speakeran hour.
- speakerWas there
- speakeranything else or any other
- speakerreflections that you wanted to share
- speakerabout the role of Presbyterianism
- speakerin
- speakerthe educational movement, especially
- speakerfor Black Presbyterians
- speakeror anything else that you didn't get
- speakerto say in any of the other
- speakerinterviews that you wanted to share
- speakernow.
- speakerNo, I don't think so.
- speakerI mean, I think that that
- speakerwas very
- speakersignificant, significant
- speakerto me in terms of the contributions that the Presbyterian Church had. I
- speakerthink that and I have to give
- speakerWendell credit for for
- speakerbringing this out and bring it
- speakerto a focus,
- speakerbecause that was
- speakeran area, an activity area
- speakerthat I really
- speakersaw it as significant and
- speakeras important as
- speakerhe saw it.
- speakerAnd I think basically because it was
- speakerjust kind of a part of my
- speakerupbringing. And so forth. You know.
- speakerIt wasn't an
- speakerunpleasant experience in
- speakerWashington, D.C.
- speakerto be a part of 15th Street Presbyterian Church.
- speakerBut it also wasn't an
- speakeroutstanding kind of operation
- speakerthat I really.
- speakerGot to gander
- speakerabout. But I think as Wendell has
- speakersaid,
- speakerit did offer me
- speakeravenues and exposure
- speakerthat I could capitalize on at a
- speakerlater time
- speakerbecause it has never been
- speakeruncomfortable for me to deal with
- speakerwhite folks or being in the company
- speakerof or anything else.
- speakerAnd part of that probably is because
- speakerwe were exposed to that, where we
- speakergot being
- speakera Presbyterian and the
- speakerexposure that I got through that,
- speakersummer camps and other kinds
- speakerof activities.
- speakerAnd so and I think that
- speakerwas passed on to my to relatives
- speakerin my family and my family is a really small family
- speakerand so in fact
- speakerI'm the last of them.
- speakerSo.
- speakerYeah.
- speakerBut I don't have anything else that
- speakerI can think of at
- speakerthis point.
- speakerWe have your connections.
- speakerSo if I think of anything else
- speakerI'll be glad to pass it along to
- speakerWendell or to you directly.
- speakerOkay sounds good.
- speakerAll right. Well, I'm going to go
- speakerahead and stop the recording
- speakerhere then.
- speakerOkay.
