You are here
Edwin Bethea oral history part 1, 2023.
Primary tabs
Download
- speakerSo we are now recording.
- speakerYes, we're now officially recording.
- speakerI don't want you to have to go
- speakerback and repeat everything, but if
- speakeryou could, you know, just
- speakergive that little bio that you were
- speakergiving about where you were born
- speakerand kind of start for there.
- speakerAnd we'll go from there.
- speakerAll right.
- speakerAll right.
- speakerAnd I'll just say I'll start off
- speakerwith a recording.
- speakerMy name is Sonia Prescott, and
- speakerI'm an archivist at the Presbyterian
- speakerHistorical Society.
- speakerAnd today, July 3rd,
- speakerI'm doing the oral history interview
- speakerwith Mr. Edwin Bethea.
- speakerAnd, you know, thank
- speakeryou for joining us this morning, Mr.
- speakerBethea.
- speakerIf you would like to start off by
- speakergiving us a little introduction
- speakerabout who you are and we'll
- speakerkind of go from there.
- speakerThank you.
- speakerOkay.
- speakerOkay.
- speakerMy name is Edwin Bethea.
- speakerI am presently living in Atlanta,
- speakerGeorgia,
- speakerbut I have a history in
- speakerthe Presbyterian Church.
- speakerIt was my family
- speakerand as an undergraduate
- speakerdegree, I acquired a degree
- speakerfrom Knoxville College.
- speakerThe college is now kind of
- speakerdormant and we're trying to get it
- speakerresurrected and accredited
- speakeras a college
- speakercampus again.
- speakerSo we're working on that.
- speakerI haven't been working on that.
- speakerBut the alumni
- speakerand the national and local alumni
- speakerchapters have been working toward
- speakerthat for some time.
- speakerWell, this
- speakerinterview, I guess, was really
- speakerinitiated by
- speakermembers of my church, North
- speakerAvenue Presbyterian Church,
- speakerand it was kind of a history of my
- speakerearly
- speakereducation and childhood development
- speakeruntil
- speakerthe present time.
- speakerLook
- speakerat this.
- speakerThis place is blocking business.
- speakerUnless seeing her.
- speakerOkay.
- speakerThere's more of this about.
- speakerWe had the meeting was being
- speakerrecorded.
- speakerHe didn't know how to fix that.
- speakerRight.
- speakerOkay.
- speakerSo I need an
- speakerexpert to do this, but I'm not
- speakerthat savvy with this at this time.
- speakerBut anyway,
- speakerso
- speakerthey have a program, and I can't
- speakerthink of the programing at this
- speakerpoint.
- speakerAnd I was kind of the initiator
- speakerof that. They (North Avenue Presbyterian Church) asked
- speakerme to see if I
- speakerwould do
- speakermy story.
- speakerI think that's the best plan.
- speakerAnd so it went from my
- speakerearly childhood until
- speakerpresent time.
- speakerSo I think.
- speakerAnd so.
- speakerThis really started
- speakerin the sense of trying to
- speakerrelate this to the Presbyterian
- speakerchurches influence
- speakeron education for blacks
- speakerin Alabama, Wilcox
- speakerCounty, because there
- speakerwas no education
- speakerfacilities set up at that time.
- speakerAnd we my family
- speakerhappened to live on a plantation,
- speakerand it's not really plantation,
- speakerbut the person
- speakerwho owned
- speakerthe land where we where
- speakerI grew up where my
- speakerrelatives grew up was
- speakerin Wilcox County and
- speakerthe Presbyterian.
- speakerThe person who owned all the land.
- speakerWhite guy. Happened
- speakerto be a Presbyterian.
- speakerAnd so he started
- speakerand set up schools for
- speakerblacks in his area
- speakerand the property that he lived on.
- speakerAnd that kind of it expanded
- speakerpretty much to include the
- speakersurrounding areas and so
- speakerforth.
- speakerWas your idea of this
- speakerwas initiated because he was a
- speakerPresbyterian and because he used
- speakerPresbyterian Church
- speakerand whatever resources were
- speakerin access to to establish
- speakereducation facilities
- speakerfor the people in this area.
- speakerAnd so that's
- speakermy.
- speakerStory related to
- speakerthe church's influence and my
- speakerinfluence from Presbyterian Church
- speakerbecause I grew
- speakerup in Wilcox County.
- speakerAnd as I said.
- speakerFrom.
- speakerMy elementary school until
- speakerI completed
- speakerelementary and then came to
- speakerWashington, D.C..
- speakerBut my family still
- speakerassociated with the Presbyterian
- speakerChurch.
- speakerAnd so.
- speakerWe continue that
- speakeraffiliation also
- speakerthere. And I guess to some degree,
- speakerthe high school that
- speakerI graduated from in Washington,
- speakerD.C., which was Dunbar High
- speakerSchool,
- speakerwas started in the
- speakerbasement of.
- speakerOne of the churches.
- speakerYeah. And then finally got
- speakerpicked up by
- speakerthe city and
- speakerthe education facility there in
- speakerWashington, D.C., But that also
- speakerwas initiated by Presbyterian
- speakerChurch. USA Presbyterian
- speakerchurch.
- speakerAnd so once I got out
- speakerof high school.
- speakerI went on to graduate school in
- speakerKnoxville, and then finishing there
- speakerI
- speakerwent to Howard university
- speakermaster's degree in social work.
- speakerOnce that was
- speakercompleted, I
- speakerguess the timing was
- speakerappropriate at the time because by
- speakerthe time the civil rights movement
- speakerbegan to kick in and so
- speakerforth. And so I
- speakerparticipated in community
- speakerorganization groups and
- speakerwas active in that.
- speakerIn that,
- speakerpart of the process.
- speakerSo if you have any questions, feel
- speakerfree to hop in.
- speakerOh, yeah, I.
- speakerI had the pleasure of listening to
- speakeryour other interview with.
- speakerWith Margaret Priest
- speakerfrom the NBPC.
- speakerYeah. One of the things that, one of
- speakerthe questions that came to mind from
- speakerthat interview was about
- speakerkind of I noticed that you talked
- speakerabout community outreach
- speakerand the importance
- speakerand significance of community
- speakeroutreach for the churches
- speakerthat you've been involved with.
- speakerWhat do you think
- speakerwas
- speakerthe relationship between community
- speakeroutreach? Was that like
- speakerbeing a part of different activism,
- speakerbeing involved in social justice
- speakermovements or the civil rights
- speakermovement? Was that a part?
- speakerWas it seen as a part of that
- speakercommunity outreach that
- speakerthe 15th Street Presbyterian
- speakerChurch was involved in at the time
- speakerthat you were there?
- speakerTo some degree, that
- speakerthis is basically a personal.
- speakerKind of impetus because
- speakersocial work has three major
- speakerelements to it.
- speakerCommitted to doing a piece,
- speakerwork group work and
- speakercommunity work.
- speakerAnd so a community organization.
- speakerAnd so
- speakeronce I
- speakergot out of college, and
- speakercame back to Washington, D.C.,
- speakerserved time in the service,
- speakercame back to Washington, D.C.
- speakerI became affiliated
- speakerwith an organization called the
- speakerUnited Planning Organization in
- speakerWashington, D.C., which was the
- speakeranti-poverty program
- speakerand they were involved in
- speakerproviding community
- speakerservices and
- speakeractivities for
- speakeradults as well as younger people.
- speakerI happened to get involved in the
- speakerorganization
- speakerand I'm getting
- speakerinvolved with their community action
- speakeroperation and got employed
- speakerby a community
- speakergroup.
- speakerAnd I began to organize
- speakeryounger people
- speakerbecause what I thought
- speakerabout was that the organization
- speakerwas having it was employing a lot of
- speakerpeople, but there was no
- speakercontinuity, that was guaranteed that
- speakerit was going to
- speakercontinue.
- speakerSo my focus basically was to try
- speakerand see if we could establish
- speakersomething that would equip
- speakerthem with skills and
- speakerknowledge about their
- speakersignificance and relevance to the
- speakercommunity in a positive
- speakerway.
- speakerSo from United Planning
- speakerOrganization
- speakerand the
- speakercommunity work that was I doing
- speakerestablished a could call
- speakeryouth uprisings.
- speakerAnd we set up a facility
- speakerfor business, which at the
- speakertime. The
- speakerkinds of small businesses
- speakerlike service stations
- speakerand so forth were kind of,
- speakerdeclining.
- speakerAnd so I thought that this might be
- speakeran opportunity to give them
- speakersome skills if we could organize
- speakera facility where they could get
- speakeractual
- speakerbusiness not business but
- speakeropportunities for employment
- speakerand learn things at the same
- speakertime by managing
- speakerthis operation.
- speakerSo the corporation has set up
- speakerwith some of the nonprofit
- speakercorporation and youth enterprises,
- speakerand that was employing individuals
- speakerin one service station
- speakerthat taught basically economics
- speakerin terms of that.
- speakerOn a practical level.
- speakerMs. Prescott, if I could interject
- speakerhere.
- speakerSure.
- speakerI just sent you to links
- speakerto some documentation
- speakerabout Mr.Bethea But I
- speakerdidn't necessarily want to be on the
- speakervideo. But let me
- speakerdo this.
- speakerAll right, So.
- speakerThe two documents that I sent are
- speakerrelated to
- speakerMr. Bethea's
- speakerconnection with the Presbyterian
- speakerChurch. And I thought that that was
- speakerthe most important part of
- speakerthis particular set of presentations
- speakerthat I was trying to get him
- speakerinvolved in.
- speakerMm hmm.
- speakerSo there is the
- speakerWilcox County,
- speakerand the involvement he
- speakerwas actually one of the students
- speakerfrom one of the six
- speakerschools in the
- speakerWilcox County area, miller's ferry and so forth.
- speakerI don't remember the names top of
- speakermind, but I did send you
- speakerdocumentation related to that.
- speakerSo my thoughts to get
- speakerhim in front of folks like you and
- speakerMrs. Priest was
- speakerto make sure that you understood
- speakereverything about his
- speakereducational background.
- speakerHis his training
- speakerand upbringing was really tied
- speakerto the Presbyterian Church.
- speakerAnd that's why I thought that, you
- speakerknow, my involvement in getting him
- speakerto outline those things would
- speakerbe instructive.
- speakerAnd so you have a few
- speakernotes from me about that.
- speakerHe tends to talk more about what he
- speakerdid personally
- speakerand that kind of thing.
- speakerAnd the only reason that I'm jumping
- speakerinto it is because I think that
- speakeryou will find that he has
- speakera connection to just about
- speakereverything that has to do with black
- speakerPresbyterianism
- speakerfrom, you know, from from his birth.
- speakerHis family was significantly
- speakerinvolved in the Presbyterian
- speakerChurch, his
- speakerrelatives and all of that.
- speakerThose were the things that I was
- speakertrying to get him to push forward
- speakerand promote.
- speakerHe's been rather modest about
- speakerthat, but it's kind
- speakerof huge to me. Now, I'm not
- speakerPresbyterian, and I don't
- speakermean to to to
- speakerto step where I shouldn't be.
- speakerBut like I said,
- speakerif I can help to to balance
- speakerthis conversation by showing
- speakerhe went to school at Presbyterian
- speakerschools from elementary
- speakerto middle school to high school,
- speakerhe didn't necessarily remember that
- speakerthe 15th Street Baptist Church
- speakerwas where just the first high
- speakerschool in D.C.
- speakerwas formed in the basement of that
- speakerchurch.
- speakerAnd it's now
- speakercalled Paul Dunbar School.
- speakerAnd that but Mr. Bethea's
- speaker92. So, you know, he's
- speakergot a really long history.
- speakerAnd and
- speakeryou can see, you know, he's fairly
- speakercogent and lucid.
- speakerHe just talks about stuff.
- speakerBut, you know, I mean, he was
- speakerremembering stuff from 90 years ago.
- speakerSo that's that's where we are.
- speakerSo I don't want to dominate any
- speakerpart of the conversation, but I just
- speakerwant you to understand that there
- speakerare some pieces and parts
- speakerthat.
- speakerYou can review.
- speakerAnd I also sent you the link to the
- speakeractual North Avenue Presbyterian
- speakerChurch.
- speakerVideo.
- speakerSo between the two things, I think
- speakeryou will have some decent stuff for
- speakerthe archives for that for the
- speakerPresbyterian church.
- speakerOne last thing before I get off,
- speakerand unless you call me back, I'll
- speakertry to stay in the background.
- speakerThere are members of his family that
- speakerhave artifacts that would be hugely
- speakervaluable for the
- speakerBlack Presbyterian and the
- speakerPresbyterian Historical Society.
- speakerSo that's my view,
- speakermy opinion.
- speakerBut.
- speakerOne of those is
- speakerthe first and last bell.
- speakerThat book, it's out of print.
- speakerI could not get it, but
- speakerthere are family members that he has
- speakerthat have that.
- speakerAnd I have a church member
- speakerin the Methodist church whose
- speakerfather went to school
- speakerat the miller's ferry school.
- speakerSo she has the books.
- speakerSo at this point, I'm trying to
- speakerdigitize that you know scan it and
- speakerdigitize it myself, but
- speakerthat for me is, a recommendation.
- speakerSo before I go anywhere, did you
- speakerhave any questions of me?
- speakerOr I'll give you back to Edwin.
- speakerDo you
- speakerknow I mean, I guess my question
- speakerwould be, you know, we'd like
- speakerto know more about the long history
- speakerof the family's relationship to
- speakerPresbyterianism.
- speakerI heard in the last interview about
- speakerMr.Bethea's father
- speakerworking at the in the administrative
- speakerportion of the 15th Street
- speakerPresbyterian Church.
- speakerSo you know learning more about
- speakerthat would be great.
- speakerThat those are the things that I
- speakerthought would be more important to
- speakeryou. And so, again, I
- speakerdid send you
- speakerboth some documentation and
- speakerthe interview at North Avenue
- speakerPresbyterian Church.
- speakerSo a lot of that would be there if
- speakeryou need more.
- speakerBut I've got all kinds of historical
- speakerstuff. From Mr. Bethea probably
- speakermore than I have about me
- speakeralmost.
- speakerBut yes, I'd like to help
- speakerwith that. And so that's what
- speakermy function is.
- speakerAnd he he pretty much
- speakerdoesn't want to do many of these
- speakerinterviews without me hanging around
- speakerbecause I'm the one who will talk
- speakerabout this stuff because he doesn't
- speakernecessarily remember
- speakeror think about it.
- speakerA lot of those questions
- speakerjust just hit me up.
- speakerI sent you an email and
- speakeryou can you can follow up with
- speakerme on that kind of stuff.
- speakerOkay. You know, since since we've
- speakerdone a couple of these interviews so
- speakerfar, since a few have already been
- speakerdone. Are there any particular
- speakertopics that you would like to focus
- speakeron that haven't been touched on
- speakerenough for you like to expand on
- speakerwhat you've kind of traditionally
- speakersaid? Like I you know, I was
- speakerthinking about that nugget
- speakerabout your family's history with the
- speakerPresbyterian Church, and I
- speakercould imagine that could be expanded
- speakermore on like what your family's
- speakerconnection has been with the black
- speakerPresbyterian community.
- speakerWell, my, my,
- speakermy father. Basically,
- speakerbefore his death, I
- speakerdid a lot of organizing
- speakerand trying to establish
- speakerthe significance of
- speakerthat element of the church
- speakerin Alabama, Wilcox County.
- speakerAnd the hope was he had to try to
- speakerestablish
- speakera well he did establish
- speakerand got a
- speakerkind of
- speakerwhat wasn't a statue
- speakerbut the preservation of one of the
- speakerbells from the church in
- speakerWilcox County.
- speakerAnd I don't know whether that's still around,
- speakerbut I haven't been back that area
- speakerfor 19 years
- speakerat this point.
- speakerBut he had more
- speakerit was probably a lot
- speakermore significant to him than it was
- speakerto me at the time,
- speakerbecause he
- speakergrew up in the era
- speakerwhere that where there was no
- speakereducation and he had always said to
- speakerme for a long time,
- speakerhad not been for the Presbyterian Church,
- speakerhe would not have had any education
- speakerat all that would have
- speakerequipped him to get to
- speakerthe positions that
- speakerhe had.
- speakerAnd so
- speakerthat made a big significance
- speakerto him.
- speakerAnd so I don't know whether the
- speakerPresbyterian church has any records
- speakerof that or not or his activities,
- speakerbut as Wendell has said that he
- speakerhas documentation of the program.
- speakerHe tried to put together
- speakerand tried to
- speakeremphasize that to people who
- speakerwere still living in
- speakerWilcox County and in Miller's Ferry
- speakerAlabama at the time.
- speakerSo
- speakerthat's the significance and
- speakerrelationship that has
- speakerhas brought to my attention to
- speakerthis. And Wendell being a very good
- speakerfriend of mine has
- speakermade that also for me because
- speakerwe were sitting around a table and
- speakerdoing this kind of talking and
- speakerexchanging ideas about background
- speakerand so forth, and he
- speakermade the statement about the fact
- speakerthat I was one of the privileged
- speakerindividuals that
- speakerhad an extraordinary activity.
- speakerAnd I was kind of peeved
- speakerwith that and didn't understand what
- speakerhe was talking about at the time.
- speakerAnd so I said, Well, listen, I
- speakerunderstand because I think
- speakerit's the same kind of things
- speakerthat you did.
- speakerThat I'm experiencing
- speakerthat you were experiencing.
- speakerAnd his point to me was
- speakerat the time, but
- speakerwe didn't have the same kind of
- speakeropportunities
- speakerfor the education opportunities that
- speakeryou had in the area.
- speakerAnd basically it was related to
- speakerthe Presbyterian church. Because
- speakerHenderson, the person who had, we
- speakerwere on his land and we were
- speakersharecroppers, at that time,
- speakermade it available to them
- speakerand used the Presbyterian Church
- speakerto
- speakerprovide this kind of education
- speakeractivities and so forth
- speakerat the Presbyterian church through
- speakerthe Presbyterian church.
- speakerSo then that brings to mind a
- speakerquestion What type of
- speakervalues were kind
- speakerof taught or taught in these
- speakerPresbyterian schools?
- speakerBecause I would wonder what, you
- speakerknow, what influence Henderson might
- speakerhave had on what was being taught
- speakeror like, what did you see as kind
- speakerof the major values that were being
- speakertaught at that point?
- speakerWell, that was the that was the
- speakerI think, to me, the key
- speakersituation, because he was
- speakerPresbyterian he didn't
- speakeremphasize anything about trying
- speakerto be Presbyterian.
- speakerNor did they try to influence
- speakerpeople on his
- speakerproperty to be Presbyterian because
- speakerthey were Methodist and
- speakerBaptist and folks who established
- speakertheir own
- speakerchurches there.
- speakerAnd there was no restrictions
- speakeron whether they can go to church or
- speakerdo whatever they want to do.
- speakerThe fact that
- speakerin his land and although he was
- speakerPresbyterian.
- speakerAnd he
- speakerprovided those services
- speakerbecause all the land
- speakerand stuff that
- speakerthat he had
- speakerwas owned by him, not by the
- speakerresident, they would just happen to
- speakerbe on the property to maintain
- speakerwhat he had
- speakerestablished.
- speakerBut there was no intent to
- speakerpressure them to
- speakerencourage them to be Presbyterians.
- speakerThe individuals who taught
- speakerat the school.
- speakerWell, I think a lot of them came
- speakerfrom Knoxville College.
- speakerBut I'm sure they came from other
- speakereducational facilities around.
- speakerSo there was no influence.
- speakerAnd the fact
- speakerthat.
- speakerThe school, although there was a
- speakerkind of fee.
- speakerThe fee was really a kind of barter
- speakersituation, and
- speakerthat was a certain
- speakeramount of
- speakerprice for the education.
- speakerIt kind of divided
- speakerinto cords of wood or
- speakerthings that you or that the
- speakerresidents in the area had
- speakerwhich applied to the school.
- speakerBut all
- speakerthe wood and
- speakerstuff that they had was on
- speakerHenderson's Land.
- speakerSo he didn't charge you for
- speakerthat property or anything else.
- speakerIt was part of his,
- speakerthat was just part of his
- speakercontribution, so that
- speakerit was a participation in the
- speakeroperation by the residents
- speakerin the area that they paid
- speakersomething.
- speakerBut he also encouraged them
- speakerto not keep their kids out
- speakerof school to pick
- speakercotton or do
- speakerwhatever they had to do in terms of
- speakerraising a decent living.
- speakerSo in the summertime, cotton grew
- speakerand so forth.
- speakerBut during the wintertime.
- speakerYou didn't have a chance to do the
- speakersame kind
- speakerof
- speakerdevelopment as you did in the
- speakersummertime.
- speakerBut he enabled
- speakerand got paid.
- speakerThe resident got paid for
- speakerupkeeping the property
- speakerby
- speakerfixing fences and cultivating
- speakerother kinds of things during the winter months.
- speakerSo they didn't have a
- speakerproblem with a
- speakerhard, difficult time.
- speakerBy trying to find out how they were
- speakergoing to exist.
- speakerAnd my grandparents
- speakerand my uncles and so forth
- speakermaintained that operation
- speakerfor Mr. Henderson in that particular
- speakertime.
- speakerHe was not necessarily liked by
- speakera lot of white people in the area.
- speakerBut because he was on a
- speakercertain kind of land, had multiple
- speakercattle and so forth people didn't bother him.
- speakerMaybe nobody came on his property
- speakerunless
- speakerthey were requested
- speakerthat there was a need for them.
- speakerSo the people who lived in MIller's
- speakerFerry in
- speakerWilcox County were pretty safe
- speakerif you went outside of that it was a
- speakerdifferent story.
- speakerBut nobody came on his
- speakerproperty we didn't have to worry
- speakerabout white people coming in,
- speakerburning down houses.
- speakerOr your safety or anything like that.
- speakerAnd that kind of attitude came
- speakerto being Presbyterian
- speakerand his status in the community.
- speakerYou know, that's a that's a
- speakerfascinating story
- speakerabout about him.
- speakerAnd I mean, it's
- speakerjust a really interesting story
- speakerthat I don't know many people know
- speakerabout outside would know about
- speakeroutside of that particular area
- speakerand his involvement with
- speakerPresbyterian education
- speakerat that point.
- speakerSo I guess.
- speakerHenderson kind of represented the
- speakerPresbyterian Church and so forth
- speakeradvocating in terms of service to
- speakerother people, being concerned
- speakerabout them, regardless of whether or
- speakernot you were Black or White.
- speakerAnd so he
- speakerhad a kind of caring concern,
- speakerand that kind of
- speakerdeveloped more of a
- speakerappreciation
- speakerfor me as I grew up
- speakerand began to
- speakersee what's going on in.
- speakerSo do you feel like that
- speakerinitial experience with
- speakerHenderson and
- speakerwith him and with like the schools
- speakerthat he helped develop.
- speakerYou feel that that helps you
- speakerto feel more comfortable working,
- speakerdoing community outreach with
- speakerdifferent groups and different
- speakerpopulations, Because it sounds
- speakerlike your involvement
- speakerin the churches you've been involved
- speakerwith have been kind of multiracial
- speakerin certain degrees.
- speakerHas that been the case or?
- speakerI think I think it certainly
- speakerhad an effect.
- speakerI think it gave my father
- speakeran outlook
- speakerof people
- speakerand a different aspect.
- speakerBut also I think that
- speakerthere was no basis for
- speakerhostility or
- speakerresentment in terms of who
- speakermay be different are having
- speakerdifferent attitudes to whites and so
- speakerforth. The
- speakerfact that he henderson emphasized
- speakerthings that black people were
- speakerinterested in in terms
- speakerof education and making sure that
- speakertheir kids were educated so
- speakerthat
- speakerthey could
- speakersurvive and living in a safe
- speakerenvironment for themselves was
- speakersignificant.
- speakerIt's an incident
- speakerthat that I'll
- speakerrelate to you in terms
- speakerof that I'm not sure if I relayed this to Wendell or not.
- speakerOnce it was somewhere around
- speaker1950, 54 or
- speaker55. Somewhere around there.
- speakerWe went.
- speakerWe still had relatives living
- speakerin and on the property there.
- speakerAnd we went back, came down
- speakerto see them on summer vacation see.
- speakerAnd we brought two cars.
- speakerAnd so.
- speakerSo.
- speakerSo that was,
- speakerI guess, like me
- speakerand him, a significant
- speakeraspect because they were relatively
- speakernew, cars they weren't
- speakerat that time that
- speakerthey saw over the years,
- speakerbut.
- speakerThe question got to be asked by
- speakerHenderson's oldest son, who was
- speakermanaging the place at that time.
- speakerWhy do we have to come down with two
- speakercars? Cause the word had gotten around.
- speakerWe must have been doing alright cause we had
- speakertwo cars coming down.
- speakerSo he asked him why are you
- speakerbringing two cars down here.
- speakerHe said well we brought the family
- speakerand all of them couldn't fit into
- speakerone car, you know, but that was a
- speakersignificant
- speakerkind of thing.
- speakerI don't think that other white
- speakerpeople in the area, somebody else
- speakerwould have had that kind of
- speakerattitude.
- speakerQuestioning some one about
- speakerit. Or would have had
- speakerthe same attitutde about it. At the same
- speakertime when my
- speakerfather wanted to try and preserve
- speakerthe fact that the Hendersons
- speakerand their attitude.
- speakerToward the people who
- speakerlived in the area.
- speakerM y father asked him to
- speakerprovide or try to get a bell
- speakerfrom the church.
- speakerThat's the only way you knew what
- speakertime it was,
- speakerwas when the bell rang, because
- speakerthe bell would generate
- speakernoise and stuff throughout
- speakerthat community so you could
- speakerhear what the place
- speakerwas. So.
- speakerMy father asked him to find
- speakera bell one of the bells
- speakerfrom the school so that he could
- speakerpreserve it as a monmument to the Presbyterian church
- speakerin Wilcox County at the time.
- speakerNow, I don't
- speakerknow whether there is a Presbyterian church in
- speakerWilcox county still or not.
- speakerBecause none of that that
- speakeractivity or relationships
- speakerhave lasted. This is not done
- speakerbecause it got taken over by the
- speakercounty and
- speakerso forth.
- speakerSo it didn't have the same
- speakersignificance.
- speakerBut my father had a whole
- speakerprogram to
- speakereducate people who were still
- speakerliving in the area about
- speakerthis community of Presbyterians
- speakerin terms of education.
- speakerSo.
- speakerAnd there's one other question
- speakerthat brings to mind that,
- speakeryou know, what was the influence
- speakerof kind of other other
- speakerdenominations in the area?
- speakerWas it because Henderson was
- speakerPresbyterian and like the, you
- speakerknow, Presbyterian ism was the most
- speakercommon in that community
- speakerbecause of that? Were there other
- speakerdenominations involved like that?
- speakerThere were other denominations
- speakerinvolved, but I don't think that
- speakerthey were involved
- speakerto the degree that the Hendersons
- speakerwere in terms of providing
- speakerservices and educational facilities,
- speakerthey may have cooperated with him
- speakerto some degree and tried to help.
- speakerBut I do not know whether or not
- speakerthat was occurring. Wendell
- speakerhas something to say about that.
- speakerWell,
- speakerI had to raise my hand here.
- speakerThat's an area where I
- speakerhave focused in on, Sonia.
- speakerTo
- speakertry and focus this back to
- speakerfolks like yourself.
- speakerThe Freedman's Bureau
- speakerand Judge Henderson.
- speakerHe eventually became a judge, so
- speakerwe now call him judge henderson.
- speakerBut they were
- speakerworking together to form these
- speakerschools.
- speakerWilcox County remains,
- speakereven today, as we speak, one
- speakerof the poorest counties in
- speakerour nation it is still a
- speakerrural area, it is still
- speakerpredominantly black,
- speakerbut there's not an industry there,
- speakerso to speak.
- speakerI guess, to try to answer
- speakeryour question a little bit more
- speakerdirectly.
- speakerI grew up as a methodist
- speakerEpiscopal.
- speakerThe folks that I mentioned
- speakerto you you might not have heard what
- speakerI was saying earlier,
- speakerthere is one of my church
- speakermembers who is here in Atlanta
- speakerwhose parents went to school
- speakerwith Edwin's parents.
- speakerAnd now
- speakerhe and I have not discussed that,
- speakerbut like
- speakeryou, I just got all fascinated
- speakerabout the historical aspects
- speakerof this. And that's why I'm trying
- speakerto be in front of you.
- speakerBut I was.
- speakerAnd the reason that I'm saying that
- speakeris because the Freedmen's Bureau
- speakerhelped all of the denominations
- speakerthat wanted to do something.
- speakerAnd I think that more
- speakerMethodists like myself,
- speakerPresbyterians like Edwin,
- speakergot more benefit out of
- speakerthat than than, say, the Baptists
- speakeror whatever, you know, because you
- speakerstill had that kind of thing.
- speakerThat's an opinion. That's an opinion.
- speakerBut my parents
- speakerdid a similar thing in
- speakerthe Methodist Church in Mississippi.
- speakerRight. And so
- speakerone of my hot buttons
- speakerfor all of this was to try to
- speakerconnect all of this.
- speakerAnd I just really got excited about
- speakerit. So.
- speakerBut I think Edwin still
- speakerdoesn't have any kind of idea
- speakerof why I'm so excited about this.
- speakerBut but the reason that I
- speakerhave to interject is because
- speakerin Wilcox County.
- speakerIt was very poor rural
- speakercounty.
- speakerAnd the point I was going to
- speakermake was Judge Henderson had he
- speakerwas probably the richest.
- speakerHe was one of, but I think he
- speakerwas the richest landowner
- speakerat the time in the state of Alabama.
- speakerEdwin mentioned that the white folks
- speakerdidn't like him. But they couldn't
- speakerdo anything about it because he had
- speakerMoney.
- speaker(Beaucoup d'argent) Yes,
- speakerthey did. So they didn't mess with
- speakerhim and they didn't mess with
- speakeranything that was on his property.
- speakerBut there were not a lot
- speakerof other denominations
- speakerwho had influence in Wilcox
- speakerCounty.
- speakerAgain, the lady that
- speakeris my contemporary in the
- speakerMethodist church, and
- speakerI'm 74, by the way.
- speakerBut her father.
- speakerWas one
- speakerof the contributors to an ad
- speakerthat Edwin's father
- speakerput together for the bell.
- speakerAnd so when I was looking at all of
- speakerthat and he and I had not discussed
- speakerthis, but when I was looking at all
- speakerthat, I gave her call and say, okay
- speakerwell she's a S-Y-K-E-S. Edwin
- speakerdoesn't remember that family
- speakerand all of that.
- speakerShe did not remember his family.
- speakerBut the point of the matter is, in
- speakerterms of answering your question,
- speakerthere were not other denominations
- speakerthat could do as
- speakermuch influence as
- speakerthe Presbyterian Church in Wilcox
- speakerCounty basically because of the
- speakerHendersons.
- speakerAnd so because Henderson was
- speakerPresbyterian, he did not
- speakerimpose Presbyterianism on
- speakeranybody.
- speakerBut by the same token, by virtue
- speakerof the fact that there was so much
- speakersupport, Edwin's family
- speakerbecame Presbyterians, stayed
- speakerPresbyterians.
- speakerAnd that kind of influenced his
- speakerwhole his whole life.
- speakerAnd that's why I was in front of you
- speakerguys. Just make to sure that story
- speakergot told somewhere.
- speakerYes, yes makes sense.
- speakerSorry for the interruption,
- speakerbut I think my comments
- speakerkind of can help you to focus.
- speakerAnd when you see the documents that
- speakerI sent you, that probably
- speakerwould help a lot to.
- speakerAnd I think that
- speakerin a sense, Wendell kind of
- speakerdownplays his significance
- speakerin this and his influence
- speakerin terms of helping me to see the
- speakerdifference in myself, because
- speakerI didn't have a real way of
- speakercomparison for that, because
- speakermost of the people who I knew in
- speakerthat area have passed on
- speakerand are gone.
- speakerAnd
- speakerthe thing that's significant to me
- speakeris that.
- speakerHenderson did not and nor
- speakerhis family basically
- speakerdid not restrict people from leaving
- speakerhis property.
- speakerSo that you could I mean,
- speakerif your family wanted to go to
- speakersomewhere else.
- speakerAnd a lot of families in
- speakerWilcox County went to other
- speakerareas Birmingham and Mobile
- speakerand so forth around.
- speakerAnd that was no restriction nor
- speakerany kind of designation,
- speakerpunishment or anything else about
- speakertheir families leaving the property.
- speakerAnd so
- speakerbut the Hendersons,
- speakerbasically it established
- speakerthemselves as being a count and for
- speakercotton farmers, so forth.
- speakerSo they use that influence, until,
- speakeryou know, as long as I know we're
- speakergood. And in fact, one of the things
- speakeris that I know about
- speakerparticularly is that.
- speakerMy grandfather
- speakerand Henderson.
- speakerI don't know how they connected or
- speakerhow they got together in terms of
- speakerthis,
- speakerbut supposedly
- speakerfrom my father, he said that
- speakeryou need to be told
- speakermy father's father and
- speakeryou need to buy you some property.
- speakerAnd so that in
- speakercase, as things
- speakerprogress, my sons
- speakerand my family may not have the same
- speakerattitude that I have and you may
- speakerneed somewhere to go.
- speakerSo and he facilitated
- speakerthat because, I mean, there's no
- speakerway you could buy property unless
- speakeryou've got property from out of the
- speakerwhite folks. Or
- speakerthat other white folks participated
- speakerin this to allow this to happen.
- speakerSo we own property
- speakernow in Wilcox county.
- speakerYeah. In Wilcox County,
- speakerbasically outside
- speakerof the Hendersons property.
- speakerSo therefore he encouraged
- speakerthat you become independent don't
- speakerdepend on him and so
- speakerforth. And it was not restricted
- speakerto where families, could
- speakerleave or go in his operations.
- speakerSo
- speakerthat was significant in terms
- speakerof the
- speakerrelationship as a Presbyterian.
- speakerBecause I don't think.
- speakerI don't know about other religions,
- speakersegments and so forth as to what
- speakertheir attitude would have been in
- speakerthat. But Henderson allowed that
- speakerkind of freedom for Black people who
- speakerlived on his property.
- speakerAnd as
- speakerI was saying to members of
- speakermy significant
- speakerelement became important, as
- speakerto.
- speakerHow everything on our
- speakerland, the land that we had
- speakerhad a purpose,
- speakerdogs had a purpose.
- speakerAnimals had a purpose.
- speakerYou didn't live up to the purpose
- speakeryou didn't have a reason to be
- speakerthere.
- speakerSo.
- speakerAnd in fact, I had
- speakera dog who would go
- speakerthat was a
- speakerGerman Shepherd and something else.
- speakerBut as a puppy growing up
- speakerin the day, he chased chickens
- speakerand ate chickens that
- speakerthat wasn't going to be accepted
- speakerto well. If you will cause hes not contributing.
- speakerHe's you know, he's
- speakertaking advantage and stuff.
- speakerAnd so my uncle
- speakerwas going to
- speakerkill him and do something else with
- speakerhim cause they could have
- speakerkilled him off or given him to somebody
- speakerelse. No this dog
- speakeris not part of the family,
- speakerbut because I was small
- speakerat the time and it was
- speakerit was a
- speakerpet of mine.
- speakerMy grandmother.
- speakerI think and my aunt convinced
- speakerhim that he shouldn't do that.
- speakerSo he made a muzzle for the dog.
- speaker(Lost Connection Here. Interview Continued on Part Two)