Edwin Bethea oral history part 1, 2023.

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    So we are now recording.
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    Yes, we're now officially recording.
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    I don't want you to have to go
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    back and repeat everything, but if
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    you could, you know, just
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    give that little bio that you were
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    giving about where you were born
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    and kind of start for there.
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    And we'll go from there.
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    All right.
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    All right.
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    And I'll just say I'll start off
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    with a recording.
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    My name is Sonia Prescott, and
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    I'm an archivist at the Presbyterian
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    Historical Society.
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    And today, July 3rd,
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    I'm doing the oral history interview
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    with Mr. Edwin Bethea.
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    And, you know, thank
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    you for joining us this morning, Mr.
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    Bethea.
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    If you would like to start off by
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    giving us a little introduction
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    about who you are and we'll
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    kind of go from there.
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    Thank you.
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    Okay.
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    Okay.
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    My name is Edwin Bethea.
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    I am presently living in Atlanta,
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    Georgia,
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    but I have a history in
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    the Presbyterian Church.
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    It was my family
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    and as an undergraduate
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    degree, I acquired a degree
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    from Knoxville College.
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    The college is now kind of
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    dormant and we're trying to get it
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    resurrected and accredited
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    as a college
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    campus again.
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    So we're working on that.
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    I haven't been working on that.
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    But the alumni
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    and the national and local alumni
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    chapters have been working toward
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    that for some time.
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    Well, this
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    interview, I guess, was really
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    initiated by
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    members of my church, North
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    Avenue Presbyterian Church,
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    and it was kind of a history of my
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    early
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    education and childhood development
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    until
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    the present time.
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    Look
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    at this.
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    This place is blocking business.
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    Unless seeing her.
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    Okay.
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    There's more of this about.
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    We had the meeting was being
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    recorded.
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    He didn't know how to fix that.
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    Right.
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    Okay.
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    So I need an
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    expert to do this, but I'm not
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    that savvy with this at this time.
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    But anyway,
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    so
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    they have a program, and I can't
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    think of the programing at this
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    point.
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    And I was kind of the initiator
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    of that. They (North Avenue Presbyterian Church) asked
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    me to see if I
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    would do
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    my story.
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    I think that's the best plan.
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    And so it went from my
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    early childhood until
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    present time.
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    So I think.
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    And so.
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    This really started
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    in the sense of trying to
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    relate this to the Presbyterian
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    churches influence
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    on education for blacks
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    in Alabama, Wilcox
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    County, because there
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    was no education
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    facilities set up at that time.
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    And we my family
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    happened to live on a plantation,
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    and it's not really plantation,
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    but the person
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    who owned
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    the land where we where
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    I grew up where my
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    relatives grew up was
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    in Wilcox County and
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    the Presbyterian.
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    The person who owned all the land.
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    White guy. Happened
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    to be a Presbyterian.
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    And so he started
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    and set up schools for
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    blacks in his area
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    and the property that he lived on.
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    And that kind of it expanded
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    pretty much to include the
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    surrounding areas and so
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    forth.
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    Was your idea of this
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    was initiated because he was a
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    Presbyterian and because he used
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    Presbyterian Church
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    and whatever resources were
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    in access to to establish
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    education facilities
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    for the people in this area.
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    And so that's
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    my.
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    Story related to
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    the church's influence and my
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    influence from Presbyterian Church
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    because I grew
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    up in Wilcox County.
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    And as I said.
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    From.
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    My elementary school until
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    I completed
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    elementary and then came to
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    Washington, D.C..
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    But my family still
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    associated with the Presbyterian
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    Church.
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    And so.
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    We continue that
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    affiliation also
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    there. And I guess to some degree,
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    the high school that
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    I graduated from in Washington,
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    D.C., which was Dunbar High
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    School,
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    was started in the
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    basement of.
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    One of the churches.
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    Yeah. And then finally got
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    picked up by
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    the city and
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    the education facility there in
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    Washington, D.C., But that also
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    was initiated by Presbyterian
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    Church. USA Presbyterian
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    church.
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    And so once I got out
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    of high school.
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    I went on to graduate school in
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    Knoxville, and then finishing there
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    I
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    went to Howard university
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    master's degree in social work.
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    Once that was
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    completed, I
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    guess the timing was
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    appropriate at the time because by
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    the time the civil rights movement
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    began to kick in and so
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    forth. And so I
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    participated in community
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    organization groups and
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    was active in that.
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    In that,
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    part of the process.
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    So if you have any questions, feel
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    free to hop in.
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    Oh, yeah, I.
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    I had the pleasure of listening to
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    your other interview with.
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    With Margaret Priest
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    from the NBPC.
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    Yeah. One of the things that, one of
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    the questions that came to mind from
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    that interview was about
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    kind of I noticed that you talked
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    about community outreach
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    and the importance
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    and significance of community
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    outreach for the churches
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    that you've been involved with.
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    What do you think
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    was
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    the relationship between community
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    outreach? Was that like
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    being a part of different activism,
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    being involved in social justice
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    movements or the civil rights
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    movement? Was that a part?
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    Was it seen as a part of that
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    community outreach that
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    the 15th Street Presbyterian
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    Church was involved in at the time
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    that you were there?
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    To some degree, that
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    this is basically a personal.
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    Kind of impetus because
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    social work has three major
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    elements to it.
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    Committed to doing a piece,
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    work group work and
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    community work.
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    And so a community organization.
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    And so
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    once I
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    got out of college, and
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    came back to Washington, D.C.,
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    served time in the service,
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    came back to Washington, D.C.
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    I became affiliated
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    with an organization called the
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    United Planning Organization in
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    Washington, D.C., which was the
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    anti-poverty program
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    and they were involved in
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    providing community
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    services and
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    activities for
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    adults as well as younger people.
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    I happened to get involved in the
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    organization
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    and I'm getting
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    involved with their community action
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    operation and got employed
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    by a community
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    group.
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    And I began to organize
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    younger people
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    because what I thought
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    about was that the organization
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    was having it was employing a lot of
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    people, but there was no
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    continuity, that was guaranteed that
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    it was going to
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    continue.
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    So my focus basically was to try
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    and see if we could establish
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    something that would equip
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    them with skills and
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    knowledge about their
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    significance and relevance to the
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    community in a positive
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    way.
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    So from United Planning
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    Organization
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    and the
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    community work that was I doing
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    established a could call
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    youth uprisings.
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    And we set up a facility
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    for business, which at the
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    time. The
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    kinds of small businesses
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    like service stations
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    and so forth were kind of,
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    declining.
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    And so I thought that this might be
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    an opportunity to give them
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    some skills if we could organize
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    a facility where they could get
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    actual
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    business not business but
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    opportunities for employment
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    and learn things at the same
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    time by managing
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    this operation.
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    So the corporation has set up
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    with some of the nonprofit
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    corporation and youth enterprises,
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    and that was employing individuals
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    in one service station
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    that taught basically economics
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    in terms of that.
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    On a practical level.
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    Ms. Prescott, if I could interject
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    here.
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    Sure.
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    I just sent you to links
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    to some documentation
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    about Mr.Bethea But I
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    didn't necessarily want to be on the
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    video. But let me
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    do this.
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    All right, So.
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    The two documents that I sent are
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    related to
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    Mr. Bethea's
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    connection with the Presbyterian
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    Church. And I thought that that was
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    the most important part of
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    this particular set of presentations
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    that I was trying to get him
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    involved in.
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    Mm hmm.
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    So there is the
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    Wilcox County,
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    and the involvement he
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    was actually one of the students
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    from one of the six
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    schools in the
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    Wilcox County area, miller's ferry and so forth.
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    I don't remember the names top of
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    mind, but I did send you
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    documentation related to that.
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    So my thoughts to get
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    him in front of folks like you and
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    Mrs. Priest was
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    to make sure that you understood
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    everything about his
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    educational background.
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    His his training
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    and upbringing was really tied
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    to the Presbyterian Church.
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    And that's why I thought that, you
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    know, my involvement in getting him
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    to outline those things would
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    be instructive.
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    And so you have a few
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    notes from me about that.
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    He tends to talk more about what he
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    did personally
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    and that kind of thing.
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    And the only reason that I'm jumping
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    into it is because I think that
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    you will find that he has
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    a connection to just about
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    everything that has to do with black
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    Presbyterianism
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    from, you know, from from his birth.
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    His family was significantly
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    involved in the Presbyterian
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    Church, his
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    relatives and all of that.
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    Those were the things that I was
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    trying to get him to push forward
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    and promote.
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    He's been rather modest about
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    that, but it's kind
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    of huge to me. Now, I'm not
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    Presbyterian, and I don't
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    mean to to to
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    to step where I shouldn't be.
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    But like I said,
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    if I can help to to balance
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    this conversation by showing
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    he went to school at Presbyterian
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    schools from elementary
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    to middle school to high school,
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    he didn't necessarily remember that
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    the 15th Street Baptist Church
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    was where just the first high
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    school in D.C.
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    was formed in the basement of that
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    church.
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    And it's now
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    called Paul Dunbar School.
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    And that but Mr. Bethea's
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    92. So, you know, he's
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    got a really long history.
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    And and
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    you can see, you know, he's fairly
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    cogent and lucid.
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    He just talks about stuff.
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    But, you know, I mean, he was
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    remembering stuff from 90 years ago.
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    So that's that's where we are.
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    So I don't want to dominate any
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    part of the conversation, but I just
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    want you to understand that there
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    are some pieces and parts
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    that.
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    You can review.
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    And I also sent you the link to the
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    actual North Avenue Presbyterian
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    Church.
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    Video.
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    So between the two things, I think
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    you will have some decent stuff for
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    the archives for that for the
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    Presbyterian church.
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    One last thing before I get off,
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    and unless you call me back, I'll
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    try to stay in the background.
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    There are members of his family that
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    have artifacts that would be hugely
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    valuable for the
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    Black Presbyterian and the
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    Presbyterian Historical Society.
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    So that's my view,
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    my opinion.
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    But.
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    One of those is
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    the first and last bell.
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    That book, it's out of print.
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    I could not get it, but
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    there are family members that he has
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    that have that.
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    And I have a church member
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    in the Methodist church whose
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    father went to school
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    at the miller's ferry school.
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    So she has the books.
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    So at this point, I'm trying to
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    digitize that you know scan it and
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    digitize it myself, but
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    that for me is, a recommendation.
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    So before I go anywhere, did you
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    have any questions of me?
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    Or I'll give you back to Edwin.
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    Do you
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    know I mean, I guess my question
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    would be, you know, we'd like
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    to know more about the long history
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    of the family's relationship to
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    Presbyterianism.
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    I heard in the last interview about
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    Mr.Bethea's father
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    working at the in the administrative
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    portion of the 15th Street
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    Presbyterian Church.
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    So you know learning more about
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    that would be great.
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    That those are the things that I
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    thought would be more important to
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    you. And so, again, I
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    did send you
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    both some documentation and
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    the interview at North Avenue
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    Presbyterian Church.
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    So a lot of that would be there if
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    you need more.
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    But I've got all kinds of historical
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    stuff. From Mr. Bethea probably
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    more than I have about me
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    almost.
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    But yes, I'd like to help
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    with that. And so that's what
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    my function is.
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    And he he pretty much
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    doesn't want to do many of these
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    interviews without me hanging around
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    because I'm the one who will talk
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    about this stuff because he doesn't
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    necessarily remember
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    or think about it.
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    A lot of those questions
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    just just hit me up.
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    I sent you an email and
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    you can you can follow up with
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    me on that kind of stuff.
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    Okay. You know, since since we've
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    done a couple of these interviews so
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    far, since a few have already been
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    done. Are there any particular
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    topics that you would like to focus
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    on that haven't been touched on
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    enough for you like to expand on
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    what you've kind of traditionally
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    said? Like I you know, I was
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    thinking about that nugget
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    about your family's history with the
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    Presbyterian Church, and I
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    could imagine that could be expanded
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    more on like what your family's
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    connection has been with the black
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    Presbyterian community.
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    Well, my, my,
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    my father. Basically,
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    before his death, I
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    did a lot of organizing
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    and trying to establish
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    the significance of
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    that element of the church
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    in Alabama, Wilcox County.
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    And the hope was he had to try to
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    establish
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    a well he did establish
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    and got a
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    kind of
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    what wasn't a statue
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    but the preservation of one of the
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    bells from the church in
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    Wilcox County.
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    And I don't know whether that's still around,
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    but I haven't been back that area
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    for 19 years
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    at this point.
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    But he had more
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    it was probably a lot
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    more significant to him than it was
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    to me at the time,
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    because he
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    grew up in the era
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    where that where there was no
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    education and he had always said to
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    me for a long time,
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    had not been for the Presbyterian Church,
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    he would not have had any education
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    at all that would have
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    equipped him to get to
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    the positions that
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    he had.
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    And so
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    that made a big significance
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    to him.
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    And so I don't know whether the
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    Presbyterian church has any records
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    of that or not or his activities,
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    but as Wendell has said that he
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    has documentation of the program.
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    He tried to put together
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    and tried to
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    emphasize that to people who
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    were still living in
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    Wilcox County and in Miller's Ferry
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    Alabama at the time.
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    So
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    that's the significance and
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    relationship that has
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    has brought to my attention to
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    this. And Wendell being a very good
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    friend of mine has
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    made that also for me because
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    we were sitting around a table and
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    doing this kind of talking and
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    exchanging ideas about background
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    and so forth, and he
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    made the statement about the fact
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    that I was one of the privileged
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    individuals that
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    had an extraordinary activity.
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    And I was kind of peeved
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    with that and didn't understand what
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    he was talking about at the time.
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    And so I said, Well, listen, I
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    understand because I think
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    it's the same kind of things
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    that you did.
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    That I'm experiencing
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    that you were experiencing.
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    And his point to me was
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    at the time, but
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    we didn't have the same kind of
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    opportunities
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    for the education opportunities that
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    you had in the area.
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    And basically it was related to
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    the Presbyterian church. Because
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    Henderson, the person who had, we
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    were on his land and we were
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    sharecroppers, at that time,
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    made it available to them
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    and used the Presbyterian Church
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    to
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    provide this kind of education
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    activities and so forth
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    at the Presbyterian church through
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    the Presbyterian church.
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    So then that brings to mind a
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    question What type of
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    values were kind
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    of taught or taught in these
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    Presbyterian schools?
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    Because I would wonder what, you
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    know, what influence Henderson might
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    have had on what was being taught
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    or like, what did you see as kind
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    of the major values that were being
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    taught at that point?
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    Well, that was the that was the
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    I think, to me, the key
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    situation, because he was
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    Presbyterian he didn't
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    emphasize anything about trying
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    to be Presbyterian.
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    Nor did they try to influence
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    people on his
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    property to be Presbyterian because
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    they were Methodist and
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    Baptist and folks who established
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    their own
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    churches there.
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    And there was no restrictions
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    on whether they can go to church or
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    do whatever they want to do.
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    The fact that
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    in his land and although he was
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    Presbyterian.
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    And he
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    provided those services
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    because all the land
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    and stuff that
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    that he had
  • speaker
    was owned by him, not by the
  • speaker
    resident, they would just happen to
  • speaker
    be on the property to maintain
  • speaker
    what he had
  • speaker
    established.
  • speaker
    But there was no intent to
  • speaker
    pressure them to
  • speaker
    encourage them to be Presbyterians.
  • speaker
    The individuals who taught
  • speaker
    at the school.
  • speaker
    Well, I think a lot of them came
  • speaker
    from Knoxville College.
  • speaker
    But I'm sure they came from other
  • speaker
    educational facilities around.
  • speaker
    So there was no influence.
  • speaker
    And the fact
  • speaker
    that.
  • speaker
    The school, although there was a
  • speaker
    kind of fee.
  • speaker
    The fee was really a kind of barter
  • speaker
    situation, and
  • speaker
    that was a certain
  • speaker
    amount of
  • speaker
    price for the education.
  • speaker
    It kind of divided
  • speaker
    into cords of wood or
  • speaker
    things that you or that the
  • speaker
    residents in the area had
  • speaker
    which applied to the school.
  • speaker
    But all
  • speaker
    the wood and
  • speaker
    stuff that they had was on
  • speaker
    Henderson's Land.
  • speaker
    So he didn't charge you for
  • speaker
    that property or anything else.
  • speaker
    It was part of his,
  • speaker
    that was just part of his
  • speaker
    contribution, so that
  • speaker
    it was a participation in the
  • speaker
    operation by the residents
  • speaker
    in the area that they paid
  • speaker
    something.
  • speaker
    But he also encouraged them
  • speaker
    to not keep their kids out
  • speaker
    of school to pick
  • speaker
    cotton or do
  • speaker
    whatever they had to do in terms of
  • speaker
    raising a decent living.
  • speaker
    So in the summertime, cotton grew
  • speaker
    and so forth.
  • speaker
    But during the wintertime.
  • speaker
    You didn't have a chance to do the
  • speaker
    same kind
  • speaker
    of
  • speaker
    development as you did in the
  • speaker
    summertime.
  • speaker
    But he enabled
  • speaker
    and got paid.
  • speaker
    The resident got paid for
  • speaker
    upkeeping the property
  • speaker
    by
  • speaker
    fixing fences and cultivating
  • speaker
    other kinds of things during the winter months.
  • speaker
    So they didn't have a
  • speaker
    problem with a
  • speaker
    hard, difficult time.
  • speaker
    By trying to find out how they were
  • speaker
    going to exist.
  • speaker
    And my grandparents
  • speaker
    and my uncles and so forth
  • speaker
    maintained that operation
  • speaker
    for Mr. Henderson in that particular
  • speaker
    time.
  • speaker
    He was not necessarily liked by
  • speaker
    a lot of white people in the area.
  • speaker
    But because he was on a
  • speaker
    certain kind of land, had multiple
  • speaker
    cattle and so forth people didn't bother him.
  • speaker
    Maybe nobody came on his property
  • speaker
    unless
  • speaker
    they were requested
  • speaker
    that there was a need for them.
  • speaker
    So the people who lived in MIller's
  • speaker
    Ferry in
  • speaker
    Wilcox County were pretty safe
  • speaker
    if you went outside of that it was a
  • speaker
    different story.
  • speaker
    But nobody came on his
  • speaker
    property we didn't have to worry
  • speaker
    about white people coming in,
  • speaker
    burning down houses.
  • speaker
    Or your safety or anything like that.
  • speaker
    And that kind of attitude came
  • speaker
    to being Presbyterian
  • speaker
    and his status in the community.
  • speaker
    You know, that's a that's a
  • speaker
    fascinating story
  • speaker
    about about him.
  • speaker
    And I mean, it's
  • speaker
    just a really interesting story
  • speaker
    that I don't know many people know
  • speaker
    about outside would know about
  • speaker
    outside of that particular area
  • speaker
    and his involvement with
  • speaker
    Presbyterian education
  • speaker
    at that point.
  • speaker
    So I guess.
  • speaker
    Henderson kind of represented the
  • speaker
    Presbyterian Church and so forth
  • speaker
    advocating in terms of service to
  • speaker
    other people, being concerned
  • speaker
    about them, regardless of whether or
  • speaker
    not you were Black or White.
  • speaker
    And so he
  • speaker
    had a kind of caring concern,
  • speaker
    and that kind of
  • speaker
    developed more of a
  • speaker
    appreciation
  • speaker
    for me as I grew up
  • speaker
    and began to
  • speaker
    see what's going on in.
  • speaker
    So do you feel like that
  • speaker
    initial experience with
  • speaker
    Henderson and
  • speaker
    with him and with like the schools
  • speaker
    that he helped develop.
  • speaker
    You feel that that helps you
  • speaker
    to feel more comfortable working,
  • speaker
    doing community outreach with
  • speaker
    different groups and different
  • speaker
    populations, Because it sounds
  • speaker
    like your involvement
  • speaker
    in the churches you've been involved
  • speaker
    with have been kind of multiracial
  • speaker
    in certain degrees.
  • speaker
    Has that been the case or?
  • speaker
    I think I think it certainly
  • speaker
    had an effect.
  • speaker
    I think it gave my father
  • speaker
    an outlook
  • speaker
    of people
  • speaker
    and a different aspect.
  • speaker
    But also I think that
  • speaker
    there was no basis for
  • speaker
    hostility or
  • speaker
    resentment in terms of who
  • speaker
    may be different are having
  • speaker
    different attitudes to whites and so
  • speaker
    forth. The
  • speaker
    fact that he henderson emphasized
  • speaker
    things that black people were
  • speaker
    interested in in terms
  • speaker
    of education and making sure that
  • speaker
    their kids were educated so
  • speaker
    that
  • speaker
    they could
  • speaker
    survive and living in a safe
  • speaker
    environment for themselves was
  • speaker
    significant.
  • speaker
    It's an incident
  • speaker
    that that I'll
  • speaker
    relate to you in terms
  • speaker
    of that I'm not sure if I relayed this to Wendell or not.
  • speaker
    Once it was somewhere around
  • speaker
    1950, 54 or
  • speaker
    55. Somewhere around there.
  • speaker
    We went.
  • speaker
    We still had relatives living
  • speaker
    in and on the property there.
  • speaker
    And we went back, came down
  • speaker
    to see them on summer vacation see.
  • speaker
    And we brought two cars.
  • speaker
    And so.
  • speaker
    So.
  • speaker
    So that was,
  • speaker
    I guess, like me
  • speaker
    and him, a significant
  • speaker
    aspect because they were relatively
  • speaker
    new, cars they weren't
  • speaker
    at that time that
  • speaker
    they saw over the years,
  • speaker
    but.
  • speaker
    The question got to be asked by
  • speaker
    Henderson's oldest son, who was
  • speaker
    managing the place at that time.
  • speaker
    Why do we have to come down with two
  • speaker
    cars? Cause the word had gotten around.
  • speaker
    We must have been doing alright cause we had
  • speaker
    two cars coming down.
  • speaker
    So he asked him why are you
  • speaker
    bringing two cars down here.
  • speaker
    He said well we brought the family
  • speaker
    and all of them couldn't fit into
  • speaker
    one car, you know, but that was a
  • speaker
    significant
  • speaker
    kind of thing.
  • speaker
    I don't think that other white
  • speaker
    people in the area, somebody else
  • speaker
    would have had that kind of
  • speaker
    attitude.
  • speaker
    Questioning some one about
  • speaker
    it. Or would have had
  • speaker
    the same attitutde about it. At the same
  • speaker
    time when my
  • speaker
    father wanted to try and preserve
  • speaker
    the fact that the Hendersons
  • speaker
    and their attitude.
  • speaker
    Toward the people who
  • speaker
    lived in the area.
  • speaker
    M y father asked him to
  • speaker
    provide or try to get a bell
  • speaker
    from the church.
  • speaker
    That's the only way you knew what
  • speaker
    time it was,
  • speaker
    was when the bell rang, because
  • speaker
    the bell would generate
  • speaker
    noise and stuff throughout
  • speaker
    that community so you could
  • speaker
    hear what the place
  • speaker
    was. So.
  • speaker
    My father asked him to find
  • speaker
    a bell one of the bells
  • speaker
    from the school so that he could
  • speaker
    preserve it as a monmument to the Presbyterian church
  • speaker
    in Wilcox County at the time.
  • speaker
    Now, I don't
  • speaker
    know whether there is a Presbyterian church in
  • speaker
    Wilcox county still or not.
  • speaker
    Because none of that that
  • speaker
    activity or relationships
  • speaker
    have lasted. This is not done
  • speaker
    because it got taken over by the
  • speaker
    county and
  • speaker
    so forth.
  • speaker
    So it didn't have the same
  • speaker
    significance.
  • speaker
    But my father had a whole
  • speaker
    program to
  • speaker
    educate people who were still
  • speaker
    living in the area about
  • speaker
    this community of Presbyterians
  • speaker
    in terms of education.
  • speaker
    So.
  • speaker
    And there's one other question
  • speaker
    that brings to mind that,
  • speaker
    you know, what was the influence
  • speaker
    of kind of other other
  • speaker
    denominations in the area?
  • speaker
    Was it because Henderson was
  • speaker
    Presbyterian and like the, you
  • speaker
    know, Presbyterian ism was the most
  • speaker
    common in that community
  • speaker
    because of that? Were there other
  • speaker
    denominations involved like that?
  • speaker
    There were other denominations
  • speaker
    involved, but I don't think that
  • speaker
    they were involved
  • speaker
    to the degree that the Hendersons
  • speaker
    were in terms of providing
  • speaker
    services and educational facilities,
  • speaker
    they may have cooperated with him
  • speaker
    to some degree and tried to help.
  • speaker
    But I do not know whether or not
  • speaker
    that was occurring. Wendell
  • speaker
    has something to say about that.
  • speaker
    Well,
  • speaker
    I had to raise my hand here.
  • speaker
    That's an area where I
  • speaker
    have focused in on, Sonia.
  • speaker
    To
  • speaker
    try and focus this back to
  • speaker
    folks like yourself.
  • speaker
    The Freedman's Bureau
  • speaker
    and Judge Henderson.
  • speaker
    He eventually became a judge, so
  • speaker
    we now call him judge henderson.
  • speaker
    But they were
  • speaker
    working together to form these
  • speaker
    schools.
  • speaker
    Wilcox County remains,
  • speaker
    even today, as we speak, one
  • speaker
    of the poorest counties in
  • speaker
    our nation it is still a
  • speaker
    rural area, it is still
  • speaker
    predominantly black,
  • speaker
    but there's not an industry there,
  • speaker
    so to speak.
  • speaker
    I guess, to try to answer
  • speaker
    your question a little bit more
  • speaker
    directly.
  • speaker
    I grew up as a methodist
  • speaker
    Episcopal.
  • speaker
    The folks that I mentioned
  • speaker
    to you you might not have heard what
  • speaker
    I was saying earlier,
  • speaker
    there is one of my church
  • speaker
    members who is here in Atlanta
  • speaker
    whose parents went to school
  • speaker
    with Edwin's parents.
  • speaker
    And now
  • speaker
    he and I have not discussed that,
  • speaker
    but like
  • speaker
    you, I just got all fascinated
  • speaker
    about the historical aspects
  • speaker
    of this. And that's why I'm trying
  • speaker
    to be in front of you.
  • speaker
    But I was.
  • speaker
    And the reason that I'm saying that
  • speaker
    is because the Freedmen's Bureau
  • speaker
    helped all of the denominations
  • speaker
    that wanted to do something.
  • speaker
    And I think that more
  • speaker
    Methodists like myself,
  • speaker
    Presbyterians like Edwin,
  • speaker
    got more benefit out of
  • speaker
    that than than, say, the Baptists
  • speaker
    or whatever, you know, because you
  • speaker
    still had that kind of thing.
  • speaker
    That's an opinion. That's an opinion.
  • speaker
    But my parents
  • speaker
    did a similar thing in
  • speaker
    the Methodist Church in Mississippi.
  • speaker
    Right. And so
  • speaker
    one of my hot buttons
  • speaker
    for all of this was to try to
  • speaker
    connect all of this.
  • speaker
    And I just really got excited about
  • speaker
    it. So.
  • speaker
    But I think Edwin still
  • speaker
    doesn't have any kind of idea
  • speaker
    of why I'm so excited about this.
  • speaker
    But but the reason that I
  • speaker
    have to interject is because
  • speaker
    in Wilcox County.
  • speaker
    It was very poor rural
  • speaker
    county.
  • speaker
    And the point I was going to
  • speaker
    make was Judge Henderson had he
  • speaker
    was probably the richest.
  • speaker
    He was one of, but I think he
  • speaker
    was the richest landowner
  • speaker
    at the time in the state of Alabama.
  • speaker
    Edwin mentioned that the white folks
  • speaker
    didn't like him. But they couldn't
  • speaker
    do anything about it because he had
  • speaker
    Money.
  • speaker
    (Beaucoup d'argent) Yes,
  • speaker
    they did. So they didn't mess with
  • speaker
    him and they didn't mess with
  • speaker
    anything that was on his property.
  • speaker
    But there were not a lot
  • speaker
    of other denominations
  • speaker
    who had influence in Wilcox
  • speaker
    County.
  • speaker
    Again, the lady that
  • speaker
    is my contemporary in the
  • speaker
    Methodist church, and
  • speaker
    I'm 74, by the way.
  • speaker
    But her father.
  • speaker
    Was one
  • speaker
    of the contributors to an ad
  • speaker
    that Edwin's father
  • speaker
    put together for the bell.
  • speaker
    And so when I was looking at all of
  • speaker
    that and he and I had not discussed
  • speaker
    this, but when I was looking at all
  • speaker
    that, I gave her call and say, okay
  • speaker
    well she's a S-Y-K-E-S. Edwin
  • speaker
    doesn't remember that family
  • speaker
    and all of that.
  • speaker
    She did not remember his family.
  • speaker
    But the point of the matter is, in
  • speaker
    terms of answering your question,
  • speaker
    there were not other denominations
  • speaker
    that could do as
  • speaker
    much influence as
  • speaker
    the Presbyterian Church in Wilcox
  • speaker
    County basically because of the
  • speaker
    Hendersons.
  • speaker
    And so because Henderson was
  • speaker
    Presbyterian, he did not
  • speaker
    impose Presbyterianism on
  • speaker
    anybody.
  • speaker
    But by the same token, by virtue
  • speaker
    of the fact that there was so much
  • speaker
    support, Edwin's family
  • speaker
    became Presbyterians, stayed
  • speaker
    Presbyterians.
  • speaker
    And that kind of influenced his
  • speaker
    whole his whole life.
  • speaker
    And that's why I was in front of you
  • speaker
    guys. Just make to sure that story
  • speaker
    got told somewhere.
  • speaker
    Yes, yes makes sense.
  • speaker
    Sorry for the interruption,
  • speaker
    but I think my comments
  • speaker
    kind of can help you to focus.
  • speaker
    And when you see the documents that
  • speaker
    I sent you, that probably
  • speaker
    would help a lot to.
  • speaker
    And I think that
  • speaker
    in a sense, Wendell kind of
  • speaker
    downplays his significance
  • speaker
    in this and his influence
  • speaker
    in terms of helping me to see the
  • speaker
    difference in myself, because
  • speaker
    I didn't have a real way of
  • speaker
    comparison for that, because
  • speaker
    most of the people who I knew in
  • speaker
    that area have passed on
  • speaker
    and are gone.
  • speaker
    And
  • speaker
    the thing that's significant to me
  • speaker
    is that.
  • speaker
    Henderson did not and nor
  • speaker
    his family basically
  • speaker
    did not restrict people from leaving
  • speaker
    his property.
  • speaker
    So that you could I mean,
  • speaker
    if your family wanted to go to
  • speaker
    somewhere else.
  • speaker
    And a lot of families in
  • speaker
    Wilcox County went to other
  • speaker
    areas Birmingham and Mobile
  • speaker
    and so forth around.
  • speaker
    And that was no restriction nor
  • speaker
    any kind of designation,
  • speaker
    punishment or anything else about
  • speaker
    their families leaving the property.
  • speaker
    And so
  • speaker
    but the Hendersons,
  • speaker
    basically it established
  • speaker
    themselves as being a count and for
  • speaker
    cotton farmers, so forth.
  • speaker
    So they use that influence, until,
  • speaker
    you know, as long as I know we're
  • speaker
    good. And in fact, one of the things
  • speaker
    is that I know about
  • speaker
    particularly is that.
  • speaker
    My grandfather
  • speaker
    and Henderson.
  • speaker
    I don't know how they connected or
  • speaker
    how they got together in terms of
  • speaker
    this,
  • speaker
    but supposedly
  • speaker
    from my father, he said that
  • speaker
    you need to be told
  • speaker
    my father's father and
  • speaker
    you need to buy you some property.
  • speaker
    And so that in
  • speaker
    case, as things
  • speaker
    progress, my sons
  • speaker
    and my family may not have the same
  • speaker
    attitude that I have and you may
  • speaker
    need somewhere to go.
  • speaker
    So and he facilitated
  • speaker
    that because, I mean, there's no
  • speaker
    way you could buy property unless
  • speaker
    you've got property from out of the
  • speaker
    white folks. Or
  • speaker
    that other white folks participated
  • speaker
    in this to allow this to happen.
  • speaker
    So we own property
  • speaker
    now in Wilcox county.
  • speaker
    Yeah. In Wilcox County,
  • speaker
    basically outside
  • speaker
    of the Hendersons property.
  • speaker
    So therefore he encouraged
  • speaker
    that you become independent don't
  • speaker
    depend on him and so
  • speaker
    forth. And it was not restricted
  • speaker
    to where families, could
  • speaker
    leave or go in his operations.
  • speaker
    So
  • speaker
    that was significant in terms
  • speaker
    of the
  • speaker
    relationship as a Presbyterian.
  • speaker
    Because I don't think.
  • speaker
    I don't know about other religions,
  • speaker
    segments and so forth as to what
  • speaker
    their attitude would have been in
  • speaker
    that. But Henderson allowed that
  • speaker
    kind of freedom for Black people who
  • speaker
    lived on his property.
  • speaker
    And as
  • speaker
    I was saying to members of
  • speaker
    my significant
  • speaker
    element became important, as
  • speaker
    to.
  • speaker
    How everything on our
  • speaker
    land, the land that we had
  • speaker
    had a purpose,
  • speaker
    dogs had a purpose.
  • speaker
    Animals had a purpose.
  • speaker
    You didn't live up to the purpose
  • speaker
    you didn't have a reason to be
  • speaker
    there.
  • speaker
    So.
  • speaker
    And in fact, I had
  • speaker
    a dog who would go
  • speaker
    that was a
  • speaker
    German Shepherd and something else.
  • speaker
    But as a puppy growing up
  • speaker
    in the day, he chased chickens
  • speaker
    and ate chickens that
  • speaker
    that wasn't going to be accepted
  • speaker
    to well. If you will cause hes not contributing.
  • speaker
    He's you know, he's
  • speaker
    taking advantage and stuff.
  • speaker
    And so my uncle
  • speaker
    was going to
  • speaker
    kill him and do something else with
  • speaker
    him cause they could have
  • speaker
    killed him off or given him to somebody
  • speaker
    else. No this dog
  • speaker
    is not part of the family,
  • speaker
    but because I was small
  • speaker
    at the time and it was
  • speaker
    it was a
  • speaker
    pet of mine.
  • speaker
    My grandmother.
  • speaker
    I think and my aunt convinced
  • speaker
    him that he shouldn't do that.
  • speaker
    So he made a muzzle for the dog.
  • speaker
    (Lost Connection Here. Interview Continued on Part Two)
Details
Title

Edwin Bethea oral history part 1, 2023.

Description

Interview (part one) conducted by Sonia Prescott with Edwin Ayres Bethea and Wendell Charles Love on July 3, 2023. Edwin was born in Birmingham, Alabama on May 15, 1931 to Monroe Ayres Bethea and Marzetta Pressley Bethea. Edwin spent his early childhood years with his grandparents and other paternal family members in Millers Ferry, Wilcox County, Alabama. Calvin B. Bethea (born 1863) and Annie McArthur Bethea (born 1868), Edwin’s paternal grandparents, were sharecroppers on the properties of Judge William Henderson in Millers Ferry. Edwin was educated in one of the six mission schools in Wilcox County supported by the Freedman’s Bureau and the United Presbyterian Church of North America. As his parents had been before him, Edwin was a student at the Millers Ferry Normal and Industrial School. In the interviews, Edwin provides a firsthand account of the Black Presbyterian experience in Wilcox County.

Creator

Bethea, Edwin, 1931-2023. (interviewee)
Prescott, Sonia. (interviewer)
Love, Wendell C. (contributor)

Date

2023
July 3, 2023

Type of resource

sound recording-nonmusical

Genre

interviews
oral histories

Form

video recordings
born digital

Extent

392 MB (1 MP4 file)

Subject names

Bethea, Edwin, 1931-2023.
National Black Presbyterians United.

Topics

African American Presbyterians.

Geographic subjects

North and Central America--United States--Alabama--Wilcox--Millers Ferry
North and Central America--United States--Georgia--Atlanta

Rights status

IN COPYRIGHT - NON-COMMERCIAL USE PERMITTED; http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/

Physical location

ARCHIVES 23-0933; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA

Related item

National Black Presbyterian Caucus oral histories, 2023.--https://prestohost68.inmagic.com/Presto/content/Detail.aspx?ctID=Y2RiNWN...

Identifier (local)

23-0933_edwin_bethea_part_1

PID (Persistent Identifier)

islandora:359656

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