This is Frank Wills. I am interviewing miss Hazel Cuthill capital c u t h I l l who is now a resident of Monte Vista Grove Homes in Pasadena, California. After a lifetime of service among the Indians in two different schools. Hazel, first, I'd like you to talk about your early days, your elementary education, and your preparation for teaching.

I was born in North Dakota in 1904 on a farm. My father was a farmer, and, I went to a country school where all the grades attended. So my first year of school was in a country school, and, we walked to school. We didn't have busses. Then we walked, a mile and a half to school, and sometimes it was 40 below zero. Usually in on those days, my father would take us. I only went to school, the country school for one year, because, we moved off the farm then and went back to Ontario, Canada to live for six months. Both my mother and father came from Canada, and my mother, when she was six years old, came in an immigrant train to North Dakota. They thought they would like to go back and live there. But as is often the case. People don't find the same relationships and, feelings in a place after they have left it for 25 years. And so we didn't like Canada and came back to North Dakota, where I continued my schooling and graduated from high school in Charlotte, North Dakota.

Before.

I came from a Christian background, like both my mother and father were, Christian people, and my father was an elder, when the church was organized in North Dakota and was, quite proud of me when I later became an elder, the, then when I graduated from high school, I went to college at Jamestown College. My mother, was very anxious that her children be college graduates because she had not had an opportunity to go to school as she had wished. When I, I graduated from Jamestown College, I taught one year in public high school in North Dakota. Then I. Applied to the Board of National Missions in New York and, saying I would like to do mission work among the, mountaineer people, but there wasn't an opening there. So they sent me to the Indian field in, Oklahoma, Dwight, Oklahoma. And I was for ten years a teacher at Dwight Indian Training School, Marble City, Oklahoma.

What did you teach and what grades?

I started out as a relief worker. And that means that you do anything that anybody asks you. Do you? I worked in the dormitories. We lived in the dormitories. I lived in the kitchen. And I shall long remember the first day I baked about 40 loaves of bread and, on a cook stove, wood stove that I had, kept going all afternoon.

Since the school required you to bake bread and things of that kind. It was undoubtedly a boarding school. And you did other things. You started to tell about other things that you did when you first went there. Yes.

I taught third and fourth grade, principally. And also some of the older children in seventh and eighth grade. Sewing was one of the things that the, one taught. And I had had some experience in that. So I taught the sewing to the older girls. It was a boarding school that, had about 60 pupils. We had, principally the Five Civilized Tribes, Cherokees, Choctaws, Seminoles, creeks and Chickasaws. And then there were other tribes that came in, but not so many of each of them. When the school was started, it was it came with the Cherokee people on the Trail of Tears and was established first in Russellville, Arkansas. And then it moved in 1828 to its, location at Marble City, Oklahoma, and was there for over 100 years when I went in 1928. They celebrated their hundredth anniversary. It continued, as an operating as a boarding school until, sometime later. It is now closed and, no longer used, for the educating, for the education of the American Indians.

You said it was started under the Board of Foreign Missions. Is that correct?

Yes. That's right. When they first established it, it was called Foreign Missions. Because that was a time when Oklahoma was a territory. I was. Right. I was at, Oklahoma for ten years working at Dwight Indian Training School. During that time, I had. Arthritis rather bad, had made two trips to meals in Rochester and nothing seemed to improve very much so I asked for a transfer to Arizona, and in 19, 38 I was transferred to Tucson Indian School, Tucson, Arizona.

And that was a boarding school also.

That was a boarding school also. And we had principally. Papa and Peanuts. The Pima Reservation was about 90 miles from us, and the Papago about 60 miles. So the people in Papago didn't have so far to come at that time. They did not have any high schools or. Junior high schools either on the reservation, and it continued to be a boarding school for the Indian youth.

Many.

We had about 150, students there.

What grades?

It started with the. Well, it started very with the very early grades, but one by one, they would cut off the grades until we had, a junior and senior high school. When I went, we had fifth grade and, we had the fifth grade clipped very soon. And, then it, continued with the sixth grade through the 12th grade. For the years that I was there.

We didn't have to learn talk all those languages, did you?

No. In fact, we, continued to try and teach the Indian children English. I think we made some mistakes in that we discouraged them talking their own language. I think it would have been better, maybe, if we had learned the Indian language. But, that was a rather difficult order. And, so they were encouraged to speak English. On the grounds?

Yes. Tell them about some of the people that you, the Indian people that you have, influenced in your teaching.

One of the very interesting things that, I thought I did while there was to, go out during the summer and conduct daily vacation Bible schools in the Indian villages and, where the children would come for, a week, and, we would have Bible school.

That was in near summer vacation.

That was during the summer vacation. The school closed. It was, very gratifying to have many of the children come and, they enjoyed coming. We would encourage the older people to come and help us in the Vacation Bible School and, several years, I, with 2 or 3 others, went out and held a school for teachers. Vacation Bible schools on the reservations. And then after we had what we thought was the teachers ready, then we would, go and visit all the schools that they were conducting. And that was, rather gratifying to see the Indian people taking over themselves and, having the Vacation Bible schools. I think they still do.

They had their schools in churches are in school buildings, all they have the.

Schools in the church buildings. Yeah. And the villages. Yeah. And, we would perhaps have, 3 or 4 classes and divide the groups up in 3 or 4 classes, and then they would have a teacher for each group. And, that was the way it was carried on. We also during the time that we were conducting the Bible schools, they would have the teachers from the Indian school, have charge of the, village prayer meetings. And every night that we were there, we would have a village prayer meeting in a different church, and then we would go and be the speaker at that, village prayer meeting. It was rather interesting to see the people coming as dusk approached, some walking. Most of them may be in wagons and many, no cars. We didn't have any that came in cars. They would all mostly come on foot. Maybe wheeling a baby carriage or carrying some of their children.

So they didn't start on the dot at 730. Oh, no.

No. Our, Indian minister in charge, Esau. Joseph. I'm sure you.

You.

Heard of him? He always, rather amused us when he made the announcement, because now he said, you people, I want you to come. Not Indian time. Come white man's time. And that, of course, meant, an hour earlier. And so they would usually get their. Oh, God, start to get dark by. They would arrive and we would have our, coming.

Along with they last.

Perhaps an hour.

What did the people themselves pray?

Oh, yes. Yes, always for a lot. They would, pray. Christian work on the reservations and the. We always would sing some, songs. Sometimes the Indians sang in their own language, and we always enjoyed that.

You did. You have, handicrafts like we used to.

Oh, yeah.

Children?

Yes. We had a certain period of the day where we had, arts and crafts. Yeah. And always related to the stories that we had taught.

Yeah. But you also, I know you have shown me some work that has been done by these children in an artistic way. Some of them made pictures and some of written poetry, and I noticed much of it was of a nature theme, close to where they lived.

That's right. That's the thing they understood. That's the thing they appreciated and loved. And when that book that you saw was, written in this by the sixth grade at the Tucson Indian School, the artwork, much of it was done in their art classes. The art teacher, we had an art teacher because that was something that they could really, advance in and and perfect. They always enjoyed the outdoors and the, nature that they loved. So when we wrote a book, we, they helped us decide what we would call the book, and it was called Whispers of Arizona. And they wrote about the birds. They wrote about the tribes, that were in our room at that time. And we wrote about the animals. Some of those stories are very, very touching and very interesting.

And you also told me all about one of these man boys that became a very famous artist.

Yes. That was a little boy that I had started, in the school with me in Oklahoma. He was a Kickapoo, Kickapoo tribe. He came when he was in the third grade, and I had him there, off and on until he was, had taken as much as we had offered there. Then he went to the American Indian Institute in Wichita, Kansas, until it closed. Then he was transferred again to Tucson Indian School. And that is where I have been transferred to. So I had him again in the 11th and 12th grade. He was one of our very promising young boys. He went away to the war as soon as he graduated from high school, came back, wounded on a in a hospital plane. And when he recovered, he went to New York, where he took up art and became a, commercial artist, which he, did until he retired.

You said he sends you a Christmas greeting. Does he make his own Christmas cards?

He doesn't always make his own Christmas cards. I always wished he would because he was very capable of doing so. Yeah, but most of the ones that he sent and he. I hear from him every Christmas, are very, they're always of an Indian nature.

Yeah.

He lives in Arizona. And now he moved back from north to from New York to Arizona, where he lives with a family that a white family that he lived with while he was in New York City and, has lived with ever since. I'm sure they must, have become his family.

He didn't marry?

No, he never married.

Tell us about some of the other people you spoke, already about Joseph Esau. You also knew Ro Lewis, didn't you?

Yes. Well, Lewis was one of our graduates to Indian school, and, he went through the university, graduated, and, then went back, went to teach in public school, during the war. His brother was the first Pima killed in the, second Second World War. It was. And, Rowe at that time was teaching in public school. Government school. He said then if his brother could give his life in the service, he would give his in the service of the Lord. So he left teaching and went to seminary, San Anselmo Seminary, and got his seminary. Training, and since that time he has been, one of the outstanding Indian leaders of the, Indian people and has served not only on the reservation, but in a larger sense, directing young people to, continue their education in the southwest.

There are also other young men that, became ministers, I think. And, yes.

We had, Roger Smith, who was a Pima, and and Nelson, also of Pima. When they came back from service, they both went into, Christian work. Roger went to Cook Christian Training School and received his work there. He also went to, Drew Seminary and had some advanced training. At Drew Seminary, came back and was a minister at sills, Arizona for, quite a number of years. And Nelson, also had training at Cook Christian Training School and then became one of the, village ministers and one of the village churches and later went to, one of the other reservations and was a minister there. Both of them high school graduates? Neither, completed, college work. They.

Were they ordained by the presbytery? Do you know.

Roger Smith was ordained? Yes. An ordained minister. I believe Edmund was two. Ken, a Sneed is another one that was ordained rather recently by the, church on the reservation. Reservation? He is now the minister at, Saskatoon, Arizona, which is the mother church of the Pima. Pima people and the one that, Dirk Ley started many years ago. He is, continuing there as their minister. Then there was Sam Thomas. Sam Thomas was not a minister. He, completed his work at the university, in Tucson and took up agriculture. So when he graduated, he, got a job, a position, with the agricultural division of the Indian Service and went back to work among his Indian people and stayed in that work for many years now.

Did any of these people go into state or national politics, or did they just simply limit their activity to the Indian, population?

Well, I guess most of them limited their work to the Indian Service. Sam Thomas. He when he went to the, sir into the service, of course. And, became a captain in the United States Army. And then he came. When he came back, he finished his university work and went into the Indian service.

What about these ladies? You've talked a lot about the men and, women I, I understand, are, quite prominent in Indian affairs.

Yes. We have quite a number of Indian students. I'm speaking only of the ones that I knew personally. And perhaps one of my students, Barbara mendez, was one of the little girls that came. And I had in the sixth grade. She went through the school through the 12th grade and graduated at the Tucson Indian School. Then she went to the university for one year and later to, university in Texas, where she graduated. She is now a teacher in, on the Hopi Reservation. She came back to her own people. The papa goes at sills and taught there for a good many years. Then she decided she really should have a change. So she applied. And they were. She was transferred to the Hopi Reservation in northern Arizona. She married while she was there, a Hopi Indian. And, has continued to teach. And, she, in her last letter this last Christmas, said it wouldn't be very many years until she would be able to retire. But her work there has been very. Very interesting. And, she has had the Indian, women, her aides. Each one would come for maybe, six weeks and assist her in the schoolroom. And, it was a rather, gratifying experience. Then there was Josephine. Who? Ella. Now? She was one of our students, and she was, from California, a mono Indian. She received her high school work at Tucson Indian School when she finished high school. She went to Ganado, Arizona, where she took her nurse's training and became a graduate nurse after she had finished her nurse's training there. She stayed at the hospital there for some time, then came back to Tucson Indian School as our school nurse and was with us for oh, 5 or 6 years. After that time, she, went into, public nursing and was in our county hospital in Tucson for a number of years. Now she is back, on the reservation and has been the supervisor of nurses in one of the government hospitals on the reservation. She also married a Papago Indian.

But not until you mention a couple of men that do have, in mind that you feel you should record when you go ahead and tell about the men, and then we'll get back to the women.

Well, one of the boys that I was, very proud of and and one that I taught in the school when he graduated from high school, he also went into the service. He went into the Navy. And when he came back, he wanted to, get a good job and work and was certainly qualified. So he asked, he used me as a reference to the FBI because he wanted to apply to, Postal Department. And, he asked if I would recommend him. And it was a joy to recommend to such an outstanding young man. The FBI man came out and interviewed me, and I thought it was a real pleasure to be able to say nothing but good about Clinton. He was, while he was in the Navy. He was always, dropped on or to his group. And when the planes came over and bombed his. Ship. He was, he remained calm. His fellow people, all the boys he worked with, came up to him one day and he said, I wish you'd tell us how it is that you can be so calm when those bombs are going over us. And he said, well, he says, I carry a New Testament with me. And. The Lord is with me, and I'm not afraid when he is with me. So it was a real testimony to his faith while he was in the service. And then he came back and got the job in the postal department, and he worked in Phenix and the Phenix post office. All through his working career. He has retired now, but he worked with owner for many years in the Phenix Post office. One of the other, boys you asked about if there was anyone did any other work then in the Indian Service. In the Indian Service. And, I was going to mention, Wilson Walker's son, who did do, I think he was an Indian judge. He was perhaps in the Indian service, but he, did a great service in being, judge on the Indian in the Indian Service. His father was the first missionary to the Apache Indians. The as you know, the is famous have a camp meeting every year. Have ever since. For years and years. And at one of those camp meetings of the Apaches, three Apache men came to the camp meeting. And when, there was a lull in the service, one of those tall big Apache stood up and he said, we want a missionary. Will you send us a missionary? And then he sat down, and there was silence. For a while no one spoke. No one offered to go. Finally, Wilson Walker, who had a store in nearby, stood up and he said, if nobody else will go, I'll go. And he sat down. He had a family, but he sold his store and took his family to a Christian training school and became, better equipped to be the missionary to the Apaches. While he was there, he would go out in the board wagon every week, 18 miles to the Apache reservation and bring a, Christian message. When, he stayed, after he finished at cook, he went to the Apache Reservation and was there missionary for a number of years, in fact, until he contracted tuberculosis and, had to retire and go back to the Pima Reservation, where he died when they had his funeral. The Apaches came in mass and filled the church with to show their esteem and love for the man that had come to tell him, about the good news. He was the one Wilson Walker who bridged the gap between the Pinos and the attempt and the Apaches.

Hey. So we have, introduced those two men and two fine men. They were. Now, let us get back to the women. There was one woman in particular, I think, Anita Bradley, that did a great work. And you are going to tell about her?

Yes. I'd be glad to tell about Anita Bradley Fischer. Her married name is now Phifer. She came to the Tucson Indian School when her parents went to Cook Christian Training School. And stayed in the Indian school until she graduated in 1956. When she graduated from high school there, she went to one year to the oh, she went to Hastings College, where she received a scholarship.

Hastings, Nebraska.

Yes. Hastings, Nebraska. While she was there, she, got a scholarship to the school in Madras, India, and went to address India, where she had, staying for from 1958 and 59. When she came back from Madras, she went to the Tucson, University in Tucson and there received her B.A. degree in 1961 and her M.A. degree in 1963. She was. She went to Harvard. Of course, she'd also received a scholarship. And in 1971. And has been working on her doctor's dissertation from that time until now. In 1979, she expects to receive her Ph.D.. From 73 to 79. She worked with the University of New Mexico in the Department of Elementary Education. She is now an associate professor in the university there. She came from a large family, I believe 13, and her family. They lived in Kayenta, a very remote part of Arizona, 150 miles from the railroad. She was a full blooded Navajo. When she left after she had gone to school and graduated. She married the son of a missionary in the Philippines. He is a white man. They are very devoted couple and have three daughters. She's written widely on the multicultural education of many, many different groups. She holds a, consultant chip in many curriculum activities. In the curriculum, elementary education. This has extended throughout the United States in many parts, including Alaska and Hawaii. She's a Native American of whom we are very proud. I would like to quote, from an article that she wrote which gives us her idea of, education and kind of reflects on some of the things that we as white people miss. This is what she says. I. I feel that we conduct education to produce individuals who think of nothing. Think nothing of destroying nature. Who prefer to live in a world of pollution. Who think only of acquiring wealth. Riches, who are totally individualistic, who think nothing of the balance between man and the world. They will leave for their youngsters. I think most educators provide schooling and not education. Anita is one we can be very proud as she takes her place with the most qualified of American women, and we shall hear more about her. I am sure, in the days to come.

Hazel, you left the Indian work in 1953 and went into public education. Would you tell us about that? The reason why, perhaps, and, your satisfaction in the work that you've done since that time and Jerry diamond.

I left the Tucson Indian School in 1953. Having had great satisfaction in the work that I had done there and the work, with the Indian people. I loved them very much and have retained the friendship of the Indian people. Down through the years and here for many of them now, I went to the back to public, school and taught in Tehachapi for five years. California. And was then, transferred or moved to Antioch, California, where I finished my public school teaching and staying there for ten years. That was before I came to the Mountain Vista Grove homes where I now reside. It is a lovely home. I couldn't ask for anything more than the, wonderful fellowship and association and friends that I have made here. Awesome.

You also made a contribution, without any question, in Antioch, California. You were a member of the session of the church there, for one thing.

Yes. I was made an elder there. I taught when I taught in Tehachapi. We had no Presbyterian church there. So I attended the Congregational Church and was immediately put on their, board. So, I have always continued to be in Christian work.

Did you teach Sunday school or anything in, California? Teachers?

Yes, I taught in, I talked, a high school class of high school. Students into hatchery when I went to Antioch. I didn't teach anymore in the, Sunday school.

How about since you've retired, have you become active in the church?

Yes, I'm active in the Pasadena Presbyterian Church. Especially in women's work. I feel that, perhaps my work with children is over. But I have enjoyed a very happy relationship with the women in the Pasadena Women's Association.

I think you ought to tell, too, about your hobby. Because people need to know about my money to grow. That it isn't all Sunday school and church, but you have some hobbies.

Well, I've always had a hobby of sewing. I always made most of my clothes, and it came in very handy when, I was working in the mission field. Since I retired, I have developed a very a great interest in gardening. And I have a garden here at the girls, which I plan to. Vegetables, and then I eat them and enjoy them with a great deal of gusto.

And since you go right by our apartment, we also eat with a great deal of gusto when the time comes and we're looking forward to another harvest. Thank you very much, Hazen. This has been a very interesting part of your life record, and there is still time to put more on, but since you feel that that's all you want to tell, we'll have to settle for that again. Thank you very much.