All right? Yeah. Thank you so much for your interest in the work of the Center for Repair of Historic Harms. I really appreciate the opportunity to get more information out there to the folks who can make the most use of it.

And, you know, Maureen and I were just talking about that and, and, you know, looking at some of the work that you've done, looking at some of the articles with regard to PCUSA that they are, in Presbyterian Historical Society and went back and looked at a few things. It is such a massive topic. When we are allowed to just think personally how that could affect our heritage. And, so one of the questions, I guess one of the first questions, just to kind of get everybody on the same page is. What is your definition of reparations and how do you manage or plan to manage the scope of what that means?

Well, that's a really good question and thank you for it. I don't necessarily have a definition for reparation that is all my own, but I follow a definition of reparation that combines what has been said previously by the Caribbean community, also known as CARICOM. In addition to members of N'COBRA and, of course, the Professor William Darity, their ideas of reparations, which are different from one another because they're dealing with different contexts, combined to help me understand the most important definition for reparations with a capital. What is important for the center for Repair Work is that we make a distinction between reparations with a capital R, and I reserve that term when I'm describing what has to happen on the level of the nation, state or the federal government as it is in contrast to what can and must be done on a local level? So broadly speaking, when I talk about reparations, it depends on who I'm talking about. If we are talking about indigenous nations in the United States, then I have to acknowledge that indigenous nations sometimes use the term reparations, but the totality of what they require to have normal relationships going forward with the United States and the United States, people of which indigenous nations are included. Their definition includes reparations sometimes, but it includes other things that have to do with the issue of sovereignty, both local sovereignty and sovereignty that functions on the level of a nation. And those distinctions are important because distinctions are what allow us to be in functional and targeted solidarities with one another. When we're talking about the Afro-American people of the United States. Reparation has to do with closing the racial wealth gap permanently and giving guarantees to reduce or completely eliminate the possibility of future recurrence.

Oh, Amen. And it's interesting that the way you described this. Thank you for that. And why is the church the place to start or is it the place to start? Why the church?

Well, anybody who has benefited. From the colonial experiment that began, we'll say, in the 1500s. Anybody can start with reparations once they realize the harm that has been done and the opportunity that exists right now to begin to make what can be made right. Right. The church, however, I think, has a distinct role to play in reparations for at least two reasons. One reason is that the Protestant Church falsified the gospel and falsified the theology of the Reformation, which needed some help anyway, but falsified it in order to give white families permission to extract wealth from Afro-American people across generations with impunity, not only as far as the government is concerned, but with theological sanction. The Roman Catholic Church also did some things related to slavery and theology, but Roman Catholic theologians, for now, will be left alone to work on that particular part of their work, because Protestants have so much work to do that we really can't afford to be pointing the fingers elsewhere for it for now. But at the same time Protestants have benefited. From making excuses to extend the lease on life or slavery. Even when slavery was understood by slave owning Protestants to be on its way out. And so, because Protestants have benefited from slavery on the level of its educational institutions to its church institutions, to the well-being of individual families and other institutions. And because Protestants have also benefited. Personally, individually, across generations, from slavery and from emancipation without compensation. That's two of the biggest reasons why I think Protestant churches play a big role or should play a big role in reparations. And I would say a third reason is because reparation is such a contentious issue, in part because of the legacy of reparation denial that come from Protestantism. Now Protestantism is in a position to do some of the repair work that I think is the simultaneous prerequisite, if you will, for capital are reparations. I say simultaneous prerequisite because there's no sense in saying wait on any level for any reason. But while we make the move toward reparation that permanently closes the racial wealth gap. Protestants have some spiritual work to do to heal some of the theological damage that has been done to nonwhite people who have been discouraged through Christian theologies to close their mouth about repair and reparation as if they don't need it. And Protestantism has also participated in a form of anti-racist rhetoric that has not mentioned reparations, and has poisoned the racial justice environment in such a way that many people who have something very useful to offer reparations do not feel welcome to bring their gifts to the work space that is necessary to make reparations a way out.

Oh, yeah. That's incredible. I was talking with Maureen earlier about. The church itself in this country and to the point of separate worship, to segregation, just the whole mentality of the enslavement movement and the and I'm going to say the Europeans feel the colonialist feel to, but the Bible says but the Bible says to your point. And today, with all that's going on in our society today, it's almost like we're coming back full circle to, the mindset of that separate. Almost a separate but equal kind of mindset from my perspective in the church, and it's something that I personally struggle with. And so. Does reparations? Is that separate? Is that concept? Is that feeling that people are going through of perhaps still feeling separated? Does that come into play at all? Is that something that has to be overcome before we can even honestly talk about reparations? Because we as church folk, a lot of time we don't want to touch the sensitive topics. You know, God is good and everybody's happy. And that that is not the world in my view.

Beautiful question. So I take my cue from Care.com on this matter. And to paraphrase paraphrase what care Thomson's. They say that oppressed people and their descendants have the duty to call for reparation. Full stop. I read across that sentence a few times before it dawned on me how important that one. And what that means is, regardless of your religion, if you are a human being that can acknowledge that you were created in the image of God, then there needs to be something within you that stands up and says no to being treated as if your ancestral wealth is somehow a thing apart, and you are the only person on the basis and race ideology, if you will, who doesn't have the right to inherit the hard work of your ancestors like everyone else? And so when I think about Care.com Springs and the Caribbean community has always been a leader, I think in standing up for this and deeper understanding of our humanity. When I think about that, I realize that for indigenous people and for Americans, the duty is on us. Not because others aren't responsible, but we know a little bit of something about what responsibility they're able to put on their own. But to hold ourselves responsible for repatriating our ancestral wealth is a theological duty. Henry Heilig, Barnett, IDB, Wells, and others remind them that simply because you've been oppressed does not mean we have been deprived and commanded such that there are not some opportunities and responsibilities that you have to. Do what needs to be done to get free. To be liberated according to what? Your spirit value if necessary. And so, in that regard, I do think we have something to do in regard to our own feeling of separateness to over come even before we can expect others to do so. We should still expect other people to do the right thing. There's no excuse for that. But the track record shows that we might as well, and we ought to take it along to demand what we know is ours, and then deal with the response or the consequences after the fact. I say this in part because I think it's a truism that nobody really respects anyone who doesn't stand up on their own and at least demands what is rightfully theirs. And I think that is a legacy of slavery, that our people are still overcome. And it's a colonial legacy that people tell me about all the time, whether we're dealing with indigenous nations or we're dealing with folks in South America or in Southern Africa. There's something in the way Christianity has been taught to colonized people that makes us feel as if our first duty is reconciliation, and that there is something devilish or diabolical or unforgiving about looking at what is actually needed to survive. Like others survive and simply demand in the name of God and in the name of our humanity, that what has been made wrong is made right. So that responsibility is something that Professor James Cone, Reverend Doctor Katie Cannon, they got that stirred up in me through their writings and their teachings, and they brought that from the heart and soul of our ancestral tradition. And I think that needs to become front and center as a, as a piece of mainstream Christianity, especially for Protestants in the United States, because it's just I mean, it's almost silly. If it weren't so deadly, how much self-deception Protestants in the United States have allowed themselves to, to engage in by treating indigenous people and the Afro-American people as if we are the people on this planet who should just be grateful that we experience colonization and should not be demanding as a basic part of our humanity, what's rightfully ours and what has been taken and what continues to enrich this nation.

Amen. And, Maureen, did you want to, ask your questions now?

I'm digesting all of that, so I know, thank you so much for that. Everyone. Thank you. I have been leading, so many of your articles. I also attended, recent dia, the, session where you, you spoke, and you touched on the income sanctions on symbol, if I said that correctly. And, one of our, focuses for the caucus is reimagining. So. And we we recently interviewed, Nisha Hackney on her views on reimagining. And she talked about, the hurt and the harm of past experiences. And you I think you touched on that as well. I can cause us to question our own identity capabilities and even, confidence and creativity. How could this in your, sorry for the noise. How can this directly impact the reparations movement? And do they intersect when I'm thinking about that symbol and how it met meets in the middle, like how does it intersect?

Creativity is everything to me. When I think about who God is in my life, I always think about God as the source of a continuous and what I hope to be a boundless creativity and reparation at the end of the day is not so much about justice. One might say it's about justice at the beginning of the day, but at the end of the day, reparation. Which we have to work for. We'll say from 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. but reparation really is to enrich that time period from 7 p.m. to 7 a.m. when your life is about what you choose, where your life is about, the people you determine you want to be around, what your life is about, your hobbies, the stories you want to tell your children, the way you want your environment to be constructed. And so reparation is really a creative way and a necessary way. When I say creative, I'm not talking about something that's frivolous or something that can be done without, because we are created in the image of God, and we are created in order to create after the character of our creator. And so reparations is about creating the reality that should have been there in the first place. If Protestant Christians and others had not given themselves over to this evil delusion of white supremacy and race ideology. And it's also a creative work, and I emphasize both creative and work, because although it is our duty to call for reparation.

I think we lost somebody.

To acknowledge their mistakes and to correct their mistakes. Oh, no. Did I?

We lost it. We lost it for a little bit there. Yeah.

Okay. I'm back now.

Yes, yes.

Okay. Okay. Sorry about that. So I'll just go back and say reparation is about creativity. Not in the sense of creativity as something extra or frivolous or only a product of the imagination. But instead, reparations creates the new community of human beings that will have repair and reparation as its normal way of going about every part of human business. And so I say that because what has happened to African people throughout the diaspora and indigenous communities all over this planet is that they've been subjected to a falsified gospel. And we have tried in many ways, to try to reconstruct a reality without being able to expect human beings to ever join us in the act of repairing what was lost. I believe that in the future, and the church has a lot to offer in the way of leadership in the future. Human communities like business communities and especially like people who are involved in technical industries, they realize you always have to be doing something to repair just the damage that comes from using anything. Whether you're talking about oil pipelines or other material things. Everything requires repair as a normal way of going about business. So why not indigenous people? Why not people in the African diaspora? And why not the theological imaginations of human beings who have been malformed and mal shaped by fake theologies that are supposed to do the dirty work and cover up for colonialism and chattel slavery and in emancipation legislation, etc.. So in that sense, it's a very creative work, and it also means creating environments where people actually can get along with each other in diverse communities. And I say diverse communities, not necessarily thinking about skin color and sexuality, although that is the diversity of communities that don't just emphasize people from the Ethnic Studies department or the liberal arts department, but workspaces where you invite people who understand finance, who understand engineering and other things that are not included, and people who are not usually welcomed in certain congressional circles.

Thank you so much for that. That was, creativity is very close to my heart, to my spirit as well. And I love how you put that from the 7 p.m. to 7 a.m. that that pocket of time that is ours and that it's just that was a very powerful part of your your answer. So I appreciate that. Thank you so much.

Welcome.

If I can.

I want to just throw this a little piece out there because I'm always I love creative people and how creative people think, recently started to reinvestigate the music and ideas of Sun Ra. Be familiar with Sun Ra. But I did a study on the social function and the ethical function of creative music, which is not jazz music, but it's the group of musicians and decided in 1965 to leave jazz, so to speak, and get back to the roots of African logics and African creativity, especially in South Side Chicago. And so I've been steeped in that music and their poetry and their ideas and their methods of composition. Because for me, that's that. That's at 7 p.m. to 7 a.m. time where I have to feed my spirit in order to fight this thing that we got to fight from 7 a.m. to 715. But I never want to have, or in the evening rather. But I never want my heart to be so given over to the fight itself that I lose my creativity. And then I stop thinking about what a future looks like if we don't have white supremacy as our problem. And so those forms of future thinking and Afrofuturism are becoming more and more important to me, even as I dig down and do my best to become as uncompromising as necessary and as possible around reparations, for not only for our people, but for indigenous nations, and invite people from all over the world to choose a lane and move down this highway along with us through the churches activities. But I just want to throw that one in there because I always it's a lonely it's a lonely path to be interested in some of those types of music. And someone other people are like, oh, me too. Then I'm always happy to get to know them.

But I'm very curious. Did you say Sun Ra did? Could you spell that for us? Because I am so curious. Now I have to go find it even in my old age.

Yeah. So his name. His name is two words. Sun, regular sun and ra ra, which has intersections with, Egyptology and other things. And I, I didn't know what to do with his work some years ago when I was first introduced to it, and I just couldn't figure out how to make it serious. To to me, until I learned a little bit more about the history of the music and the style of organizing human beings outside of what, Gerald Horne refers to as the bordello culture of jazz. But really starting to look at how people organize creativity when they say yes to who God made them to be, and they say no to that other music industry form that just exploits people and oversexualized people, their music, their addictions and traumas against them. And Sun Ra has passed now, but he's someone who is always cited by musicians that I admire right now, who have done enormous work in the past several decades. You know, who now themselves are in their 70s and 80s and beyond. But they say, don't, don't forget about Louis Armstrong, Billie Holiday, John Coltrane and Sun Ra. And and I'm starting to understand why, especially when it comes to being as creative and brave as you can with the materials that you have available to you so that future generations can go even further. That's the type of thing that, you know, I can get kind of tired of focusing, you know, on all the evil things that certain people do. And but it replenishes my spirit to dwell, you know, with those who are living and dwell with the creativity of our ancestors. Because the older that I get, the more I can see in something like even that grin of Louis Armstrong. I used to not be able to see what was really in it and what was behind it. But certain people have told me to look again and pay attention. And now I can see and I can hear, you know, kind of around corners. Who said that? Ralph Ellison and Invisible Man, you know, talk about being able to hear around corners. And I'm starting to see that now. And that's starting to inspire me more and more and give me a little bit more stamina and staying power with some of the necessary unfortunate stuff that we have to deal with so that people have less of it to deal with who come after us.

That is so. Because I too am. I have a creative bent as well, and especially for music. I grew up singing. And when I had an opportunity, at Howard. Well, in my high school, I grew up in the segregated South Raleigh, North Carolina, last high school in the city. I greet my class with the last segregated graduating class of my high school, and then so singing in the choir and things. And we sang a lot of historically black music, especially the spiritual. I mean, that and and they even now, as I think about those times and I think about how moved I was and still am by the spirituals, because so many of them came out of the struggle. And the messages that were part of, of, of the struggle and, and in that music, so you've piqued my interest as well, too, because I will be looking at Sun Ra and I will definitely get my husband engaged in that, because he loves music as well. But we and we love differently. And I mean, that's part of our individual creativity. And I don't because we could spend a whole hour, I'm sure.

I, I'm not.

Creative that.

And I hope that in the future there's more space for that. Because, I mean, this is one of my you know, this is one of my gripes with my Apple pessimist colleagues is that, I mean, I have a of them, gripes, that is. But this you have to attend to the things that cause and have caused the death of our people is necessary. But you have to, at the same time pay attention to those things, however messed up they are that have that have drawn life out of those situations and that have made people see life. When we couldn't see life looking back at what they endured. We have to mind that, and we have to cultivate that and make that into something true and powerful and beautiful in such a way that it just doesn't make sense to ignore things like reparation, because of course, reparation, right? Necessary and possible, just as you have, you know, certain people who remember being deprived of certain properties in Cuba in 1959 when Fidel Castro's revolution set off. And they think they're old reparations, and some of us might doubt that they are owed them. But how much more, then, should our people be able to say, without even getting angry all the time, that, of course, we're old reparations? What is it about me that wouldn't go for that? Because we have a life to live, and the people who are coming after us have a whole lot of life to live. And we need all of our things in order to live the life that God gave us to enjoy. And so, yes, there is anger and all that kind of stuff and drama and repair and reparation for sure. But there's also joy in it and there's creativity in it, and there's also just the basic nonchalance. And just like, of course, like, why would we not like, why would we have forgotten that? Why would we have dropped that ball? You know, so I think there's more than one emotional stripe, I think, for us to wear when it comes to repair and reparation. And I think the more deeply we appreciate the reality of God at work in us, the less often it's necessary to talk about repair and reparation in an angry time. And again, I wouldn't ever give it up. I mean anger, it is what it is, and there's plenty to be angry about. But it's also a way of saying, I belong on this planet like anybody else, and I need my things because my future is wonderful and you don't have to break a sweat, you know, to say that. And that's the spirit that I carry in my heart on a regular basis. Every once in a while, you know, somebody will ask me the wrong question the wrong way, and then I have to make go other stripes come out and that's okay, you know, because other people needed to do that and they were not safe enough to do it before I came into the world on their shoulders. So it's all right. But I don't try to cultivate a spirit of resentment or anger, but I just try to be responsible and joyful about the fact that I'm here, I'm alive, and we have survived, and we have more life to live in the future than what we've been able to live in the past. And I'm glad about that.

That is so encouraging to hear from you. And it kind of sets up a question that, that, I have and that is. Will this work on reparations? Impact the current culture of African-Americans in this country, specifically our young men, to a point where some of the ills that our young men, grow up with them. And I'm and I'm going to say pick any of them from A to Z. That caused them to assimilate. Oh. I'm sorry. Are we? Do you need to go?

Oh, no. No, no. Reverend Bentley. My. So my phone does this thing, and I haven't figured out how to make it not do it, but if I get a call on my cell phone, it'll ring on my computer and just mess up all my audio stuff. And I just sent a little smart alecky comment to Reverend Bentley. So I know he's trying to call me back and talk to me now. That's my brother. I love him to death. But if you could start over with your question because right when you started it, did that.

Sure, sure, sure. Yes. What you just said was so impactful to me. And so my question is, will there be a point with the work of reparations where the culture of African-Americans in the United States specifically, I look at our future, as you said, I look at the generations beyond me. I look at my grandson and his grandson that on down there, it will impact the culture in this country, especially for our young men, but also our young women. But I, you know, we constantly I constantly and concern about what is my four year old grandson going to find when he walks out this door by himself one day in this country and so will reparations. Or how will reparations help this country? And our people be able to, be less. Less. I'm going to use the term adverse with each other.

Hmhm. So I like this question because this is a tricky part about reparation, and it's part of what I why I think the church has to be involved in it in a authentically spiritual way. Because we have noticed. White supremacist and capitalists without boundaries. Can't find their way to work around anything that the law does.

Exactly.

And an ingenious way. And I think reparation is the sort of thing that people. I mean, I know this for a fact. I mean, some of our best friends, at least in. Law and the judiciary have lost cases because white supremacy is so powerful. You know, when I do certain presentations, I focus on how I'll be on tour, because in the late 19th century, I'm not sure if black folk had a better friend who wasn't black than Albion Tours, and he thought reparations was a bad idea, because it would create the impression that our people are not loyal, that we're ungrateful, and that we're backward looking and that we're out for revenge. And he didn't think that about our people, but he thought reparation would just make it too hard to pass civil rights legislation. And we should just stick with the basics. And as we know, of course. That tactic didn't work because here we are today. But I bring that up because I do believe that reparations has to simultaneously be understood as a debt. Because it is a debt. I think we cannot reduce it to a debt, but we can never go beneath the understanding of reparations as a debt, because doing what is necessary to make reparation happen is not always going to feel good, and it has to be understood as something that is owed, whether it happens nicely or whether it happens by other means. But I think the Christian church is in a position to contribute something to the culture whereby reparation is something that the country does, while understanding that it is a relief for the country to do it, that it is in the best interest of the country to give reparation, even as it is the payment of a debt. And when I talk to, to white Presbyterians, it's not that hard in a, in the right kind of group to help people understand, however, they need to be made to understand it that the United States is a sinking ship. And your ship can sink because of one hole or five holes. And so the economic deficit that Afro-Americans face, which is not the only problem the United States had with that economic deficit itself, is something that both China and Russia observe, and they realize that is a weakness in the United States. Now, the competition between the US and China and Russia is not typically something that I'm that concerned with. That's not really what gets me going. But I've heard other people understand when I say that of all the problems China has, they don't have a race problem. When you've got at least 15% of people who have less and less of a reason to be loyal to the United States of America, and nothing to do to manifest that loyalty, even if they were possessed of a sense of loyalty and patriotism. So it is a it's a national security risk to have the number of people who experience generational poverty and generational hopelessness in this country, even if you didn't have any particular love for black folk or Jesus. There is a enlightened, if you will, self-interest in realizing that you need to plug all the holes in a sinking ship without being too, emotional about this one or the other one. But at the same time, I think that there is a kind of self-loathing that takes place among any group of people who can not at least articulate to themselves and among themselves that they have been wronged, and that they owe it to each other to collaborate in such a way that that debt is repaid. And I don't even think we have the right language to really describe that feeling of looking at one another and understanding that among all the things we have between us, it is something that prevents us from loving ourselves and our ancestors enough to actually name what is necessary, and then organize ourselves in such a way that others understand that it's necessary and are willing to collaborate with us in order to get it done. And that's the trickier part with reparation, because there is a certain percentage of white Americans who have to say yes to reparations before it can become a legislated reality that actually. Remains in place, or functions long enough to close that racial wealth gap, and to incentivize people from trying to find some other way to reinstate it or to reinstate it, rather by other means. And that means we also have to figure out how to get along with people who are not ourselves enough to persuade people to become a part of the work of repair and reparation. For their own good. We'll just put it that way. And that's it. More difficult work. And I notice that something like that takes place in the relationships between nations that have a lot of reason to hate one another permanently. And I don't endorse everything that I see in these relationships. But I ask myself often what is going on in the culture of Japan. After the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, such that they can be allies of the United States, even when the United States is an adversary of people right in the Japanese people's backyard, so to speak. And I wonder if there's anything in that relationship, or if there's anything in that culture that other groups of people might borrow from in order to say, these are long term interests, and those long term interests sit right next to some short term interests and feelings that maybe need to be renegotiated or organized in a different configuration. And so I don't know exactly what that is, but I do try to figure out what is it that allows a country to experience what Japan experienced from the United States, but also remain in the 21st century in some kind of productive relationship? That seems to be. For the for the good of some part of the Japanese culture. That's a weird kind of question, but that question helps me make a distinction between what I think might be a very necessary cultural function within the African-American community to never forget what happened. And to really take into consideration what does it mean culturally for us not to make forgiveness the number one item on our agenda? I think about that often. What is the role of culture? What is the role of community over and against? What does it mean to function as a nation within a nation? And to raise questions about what is in the long term interest of a nation politically and strategically? I'm not sure what the answer is to that series of questions, but I think that type of thinking is something that is painful for us to dredge up. But I think it's a very necessary part of this reality in which. We don't seem to be on a path to normal integration into the nation of our birth any time soon. And I'm not pessimistic about that possibility, but I do take it very seriously that it seems as if there are a number of people dead set on making the next couple hundred years a carbon copy of the last couple of hundred years. And I pray to God that that's not true. And I operate in in the faith that because God is God, that will not be true, but at the same time. And you know, my good friend with daughter Leo Smith told me this phrase. You know, he said that the Afro-American people have to begin to understand what it means to act as a ritual nation, meaning some things you will have to do in concert with one another because you are a nation within a nation of a certain type. We are American citizens, and there's no reason for us not to take full advantage of that, because we have earned it and our ancestors have earned it. But at the same time, the extent to which we are held at arm's length and not treated like citizens and not treated like human beings in many cases, means that on both a cultural and a political level, we may have to do two things at the same time, which is understand what has happened to us and understand how we have been sequestered and what that means for us emotionally, spiritually and culturally. And deal with that on the interior part of our culture. And then at the same time, it seems that we will have to understand or at least develop a forum to begin to raise functional questions like, what are what are the goals that we set for ourselves in the next 100 years, 150 years, 300 years, 500 years? And if we plan to exist. In a way that is different than how we've existed so far. Then it means we have to use our creativity and our political capacities, then understand what does it mean to be a distinct nation of people, not because we're preoccupied with being contrary, arbitrary or separate, but because we understand the reality that at this moment, that looks like the way it's going to be, at least from now until next Thursday and maybe beyond. And so what does that mean, then? To look at what our interests are, and what does it mean to serve our interests? And what does it mean to raise folks to be spiritual and political without any arbitrary split in between? Take care of ourselves spiritually, emotionally, and in every other way, culturally, but also to understand economics and politics as if we exist on this planet and plan to do so in perpetuity, which we do.

And I think that I'm fascinated with it because I'm sitting here and you're saying that and again, I have to put it within my context as a boomer, how I grew up and all of that, but I still see today is even division is a very strong word, and I don't want to use the word division. But I do see, even among our own nation of F of of black Americans, the dissension, the, the anger, the why are you trying to stir things up? You know, I just said, to someone I don't I don't even remember who it was I was talking about generationally, how my generation, my my parents were the generation coming through the depression and all of that coming through the civil rights movement, the grass roots of the civil rights movement coming through, expecting the segregation in the South because that was all around them. And then, they got to a point educationally, I believe, where they were able to attain a certain financial level, become a little bit more involved in the culture as a whole. But then you still had this other group of people who hadn't quite made it. And then we've got our children. We. We made it. I made it only. Dear children, I should say, my husband and I were considered middle class. We made. We had good job. We retired. That and then we had. But we had to work like crazy to do that. Because even though my parents never raised me to say, you got to do twice as good. They didn't say that, but they pushed me that hard and I recognized that. So now I'm still in a culture where people, black people, will still say, why are you trying to stir things up? But this is why I said earlier about sometimes I feel like we've got full circle. Why are you trying to stir things up while trying to make white folks mad? What's what with the white supremacy thing? And you know how well I know it's there, but is that in our own nation, if you will, as you stated. Do. Must that be overcome before we can make the, the the inroads that you're talking about with regard to reparation?

I think so. If I understand you correctly, I think we have to do a threat assessment and and we have to do an honest threat assessment and understand that. A majority of people in this country are indifferent to our well-being, and a powerful minority of people are hostile to our well-being. And because of many factors on this planet, the competition for survival. In this country is only going to get stiffer. It's not getting easier for anybody, and I think we simply have to get used to the fact that here we are in the 21st century and we live in a white supremacist fever dream. We're in it. It's not our fault, but it is most certainly our problem. And, you know, I think almost every day about W.E.B. Du Bois is not taking in the wrong question. You know, how does it feel to be a problem? Well, you know, Doctor Dubois, I'm not a problem. But the question should be, how does it feel to have those people as your problems? And it's a serious problem. And I think we simply have to be honest about the fact that our survival is, as it has been in this country, under threat by on multiple fronts. It just is what it is. You know, whether you're Clarence Thomas, Cornel West, Bryant Gumbel, Condoleezza Rice, whatever your style is, whatever your flavor is, we are under threat. But. I do think culturally and politically it is very important that we. Both externally and internally, do not lead with that. And what I mean is that like our young people, they have to be filled with what, you know, Reverend Doctor Katie Cannon referred to as anxiousness. They have to be informed. Just like my parents. You know, they informed me early in life about exactly what was around me, who used to be hung from what tree and what the courtyard, you know, used to be used for after hours so that I would not be caught by surprise in the environment where they raised me. But they are very clear that there is a problem with this environment. And the problem is not you. And I think that is so important that while we have to let young people understand that this country, as it stands right now is a white supremacist fever dream and you are under threat. But at the same time, it has to be understood that the problem is not you and there is a way to solve our problems so that in the future these problems will not exist. And that, I think, is an important part of the imagination. And I think that's what nation building is about at its core. You know, it's not about attacking other countries and pretending you're doing it for their own good, but it is about having a long range imagination and the attitude that comes with it. Even if you don't have the guts to show it, to show for it in the moment, there has to be an understanding that we will exist and we will survive, and we will thrive and do well. And we owe nobody any apologies for anything that our survival and our thriving requires. And that's something that a lot of black Presbyterians and a lot of black Christians simply don't know how to say with our full chest, you know, with the whole Bible in our hands, because we think that somehow by hunkering down and by playing humble and by leading with the kind of forgiveness that some people simply don't have a right to pronounce over future or past generations, that somehow something is going to see us, or someone is going to see us, and then smooth out the path to the future simply because we were docile or innocent or optimistic. I think we have to tell it the truth about the days when that might have helped some people survive, but also realize that that's not what is going to get us from this moment into the future. And so that's not about being arbitrarily angry or surly or trying to have some fake attitude as if the world owes you something, but is simply to say that you, oh God, something because God's very breath is in you. And so how dare you do anything less than your best and thrive and leave a record of your existence for others to do better than you from what you left behind? Which means. We can't fail. We just can't fail and we can't have failure be an option. And we can't allow theology forged by white supremacy to tell us something other than God wishes our survival and thriving by all necessary means. We're surrounded by people who believe that about themselves, and our demise has been calculated as some other people's necessary means for their own survival. We can't be parasitic, and we can't be living out of a revenge fantasy, but we also have to be respectful enough of God that we are not afraid of anything except God telling us we didn't try hard enough at the judgment day. And I think that means culturally we have to understand what is the threat. But in a broader sense, we have to understand and raise that question what is the opportunity? And even when we discuss our situation politically in, you know, whether it's in Washington, D.C., or whether it's in Louisville, Kentucky, I think it's important to always project. What's the word? Not optimism. Confidence and dignity. Which means there are moments to be upset and to let somebody know it. But there are also moments to just be calm and to be cool. Because what we know to be true about God and ourselves is not something that necessarily he needs to be shouted, shouted when it needs to be shouted. But it's true enough that we can just carry it. Cool. And I think that's something, culturally, that we have to develop, even as we heal from layers and layers and layers of trauma. There's no need to pretend that trauma is not there, but I think there's a way of caring ourselves where we show people that, you know, like Jesus coming into Jerusalem on the donkey, Jesus came in peace. Jesus meant business. And I think there's a way to embody that. You know, even as the frozen chosen, you know, Presbyterians, there's a way to embody a kind of, full confidence that doesn't undersell reparations at all, but that refuses to call a debt anything but a debt unless people have said, oh, we're willing to pay the debt. Can you tell us what the what the what the upshot is of that, like, oh, well, I'm glad you're here now that you're willing to pay this debt. And there are all kinds of brilliant upshot. And I lean into that more than I do, just kind of being angry about it a lot because I'm I watching my blood pressure. I turned 45 two days ago, and I'm not going to be up, and I'm not going to be up here angry all day long because these people are not going to kill me. But I also owe, you know, our ancestors and your descendants to do what I can do to move this ball forward. And I'm going to do it while I live, as long as I can, and enjoy my life as long as I can enjoy it on my own terms, you know, God willing.

Amen. Amen. Amen. Oh my goodness. Maureen, did you have anything else to ask for?

I mean, I think we can go on and on all day, like, you know, talk about this is this is such a powerful. And you, you really type that. I'm. Thank you. You know, because I want my question was about what is your message? What would the message be to the young adults? Because they're letting them know at the conference that their voice is powerful and their voice is not for the future, but we want to hear them now. But, you know, and that we we trust them and we trust their vision. But like, you know, what is that what what is the message that you would want them to receive from this reparations for from the movement, from the center for repair that you, are starting?

Life is good. You deserve it. And you owe it.

Thank you. Yes, that's. Thank you for encapsulating that. You.

Always. Like there's so much ugliness in life. There's so much danger in life. But we deserve the goodness of life. And we also owe it to future generations to do whatever we can do to secure more goodness for more people. And we start with ourselves because God gave us to ourselves first. And that's where we have the most choice. You cannot negate yourself and then purport to be doing something worthy for somebody else. We have to be giving people, even on a sacrificial level. But you don't have anything to give. You can shortchange God's original gift to you, which is yourself. I would say life is good. You deserve it anyway. Both to God and the future. And ancestors. Thank you. Thank you.

Well, brethren. Alarm we, Reverend Ross. Alarm. We are. I think both Maureen and I are just stunned right now. This is just been so powerful.

Thank you so much for, conversation.

And, I am excited about what you. Have been chosen to do. You have been chosen to do this. And I know that you feel that. I know that you know that just by what you have said here. And it's an enormous responsibility, and you are up with the for the challenge. And I think that that. You were. Just thank you. I don't know a lot about you, but I. You know, I've read your bio and just what I've been able to find online, but I'm so excited to know so much more about you. And, have you published any books yet?

Not yet. I'm supposed to be finishing up a dissertation very soon, and.

Yeah.

I need to move faster on that. I need to move faster on it. But, I will see. I have an article back of a few years ago called. I can't remember what it was called, but is my research area is in extralegal violence between the announcement of the draft for the Civil War and the 1898 massacre in Wilmington, North Carolina. That's mine. So, I mean, I live in the and that's one of the reasons why I'm like, okay, where is the creative part? Because I, I live in the doom and gloom and some of the details. Forensic details of spectacle, lynching. So that's a big part of, of my work because I just I want to know what happened, but not only what happened, but why did people do that? What did they think that they were going to gain? And how were they convinced that they could get something from our death that clearly they neither got from our death nor from their own lives? So I published something called what was it? I think it called. It was an autopsy. No, no, no, it. Well, if I think of the name of my own article, I will let you know. But it was a reflection. It was a reflection on a survivor's memoir. A gentleman who survived what was supposed to be a triple lynching in Marion, Indiana, became a Christian, became a Catholic, wrote his memoir, and told a harrowing story. It's. Yeah, that's the name of the article is called, The Gift from death. You know, gift from death. Trying to understand what did people think they were going to gain by gathering, to feast their eyes on the death of young black people in public? So it was. Yeah, a gift from death. But then, I'm also writing a chapter that is going to go in a reparations reader. That is, I think it's being I think Eddie Glaude is the editor, but it will be it's also being done in partnership with Johnson C Smith, which is part of work that they're doing, around listening tables for reparations and understanding how our institutions are prepared to make a push for reparations. So that one, I think I'm not sure when it's going to come out. I need to finish. I got about a month to finish writing my little chapter, but there will be a chapter in that about reparations that will discuss some of what we discussed here today. But especially, you know, around like, what is the meaning and the feeling of, of requiring and demanding reparations. And then.

Thank you.

A couple other little things I'm coming out to. Yeah. Through, I think unbound. I'm working with unbound right now to see to see if we can do some things together, some more, maybe some more technical stuff around reparations that doesn't work so well in like, the Presbyterian News Service format, but that and also seven stations of repair, which is going to be a start as a short document where I just look through different stations that this Presbyterians must repair. And it ranges from indigenous people and Afro-Americans all the way down to repairing the theologies that have been developed in the process of denying reparations and stealing indigenous land. And that's going to be something that really lends itself to be used with the 14 stations of the cross as a way to really take the theology and the liturgical experience of reparations seriously as a religious body, and how we can use that as a way for people not only to contemplate the things that have gone wrong, but to understand how it connects deeply with our with our prayer life and our life in other aspects of just church liturgy, and even just training people to work in reparation spaces. And how that's different than the way we work in other anti-racist spaces. Wonderful and wonderful. I want to let you know also, this month for me has been and next month will be, and most of July will be a crazy, crazy busy time. But generally speaking, anything that has to do, with with the Black Presbyterian Caucus, I'm always willing to make a little extra room, to, to be just, you know, just to do anything to show up and give presentations or to encourage. And sometimes there's not funds, you know, for people to fly you out and keep you in a hotel. And usually when people say that, I say, please look again. But, there are other circumstances. I'll just put it this way. There are other circumstances where I'm more than happy, to, to use my budget, to be with the to be with the people and to be uncertain. And I just wanted you to know that for me.

Thank you. Thank you so much.

Well, we look forward to meeting you in person in a couple of weeks.

Yes, yes. Coming soon.

Yes, yes. And we. Thank you. We have taken more than 30 minutes. We thank you so much for your time.

Well spent.

And, the the conversation has just been enlightening. Incredible. And, again, as a boomer, I'm still hopeful. I am, I am I really I really am. Well. Anything from you? Maureen, before we end.

I just want to say thank you again. And, just from a personal as well, you know, standpoint, like Sister Margaret, just how this touched me so much in conversations that I've had with my own mother. And I think about just reparations with the black family, you know, just, you know, who who we are and being, you know, being able to tap into that. Because I often ask my mother questions about who we are, you know, just our history. And she it's something that she doesn't want to really talk about and ask, almost like, like, why are you trying to stir these things up in these memories and these feelings? And, and I just, you know, this conversation just kind of confirmation as to how important it is. So to have those conversations and continue to have those conference conversations with the family and with the black family, and let us know that it's okay for us to talk about this so we can move on.

Oh, yes. Oh, that's so encouraging to hear. Thank you. Thank you so much. And I look forward to being out there in Charleston because most of my time is spent not talking with us. You know, I mean, because the domination demographically is what it is. But I really, really look forward to just being able to have, you know, I have a home conversation. So I'm looking forward to being out there and wonderful.

Well, thank you again. We would like to close this with prayer. Lorraine, show you or I.

Can you please.

Of course. I'm gonna look for a thank you.

Look.

We're both praying with Reverend.

Okay.

Let us. Let us quiet our spirit. Heavenly father, first of all, we thank you for the blessings of this day. Waking us up, Lord, to be able to participate in the wonderful, incredible, and fascinating subject of reparations here with Reverend Ralph Salam. We thank you, father, for how you have touched him to with such passion to study this enormous, enormous project. Father, but this project then, with your leadership and with your guidance can change the world. As he has stated, the world, especially this United States of America, this so desperately, desperately needs to make amends. Father, this so desperately needs to recognize the equality of all of us. The. This nation and father so desperately needs us, ourselves, our African American father, to recognize we are worthy of this effort. Lord. As Reverend Ross Allen has stated, we thank you, father, for this time to learn and to talk. We ask father that you wrap your arms of care around him, father, and keep him in, in, in charge, and keep him charged up and keep him ready to fight this struggle. Father Prince, it is an uphill one. I am so thankful for this opportunity from my stage and my father, that I can actually sit here and have this conversation about this subject. Pardon me, Lord, that. Will change this world. We thank you, father, for this time. We ask you, father, to continue to guard us up as we prepare for this conference and for the many opportunities it will bring. And we ask, father, that you guide us as we write the articles and as we put the video clips, father, that you guide us in our selections so that we can share the meat of this experience with all of our colleagues. In the name of your holy son, we pray. Amen.

Amen. Amen. Thank you. Thank you all so much. My parents. I'm good, isn't it? I'm very blessed being in your presence. Thank you so much.

And we will meet you face to face very soon.

Yes, yes we will. Oh my goodness. I didn't realize those hotels filled up so quick. Oh.

Yeah. Did you get a room?

Did you get a room, though?

I didn't get a room there, but I was able to put a room on hold in another hotel, like maybe half a mile away. So I won't be homeless that way.

Does does I need to let Judy Murphy know that you weren't able to get a room in the hotel? She might be able to do something if you're interested.

She she does not. I'll.

I'll call her right now.

Okay. Okay. Because then I'll put a room on hold. But they didn't charge me yet, so I can have sex. Okay. But. And if not, it's okay. But but I'd love to be with everybody.

Yeah, sure. Absolutely. Close by. Okay.

Reverend, can I have your phone number so I can get back to you? Oh.

Did you. Oh, okay.

Hold on one second. Let me stop the recording. Oh, because I thank you for reminding me. Because wearing those, I get excited. And where is my button? Excited. And I get all caught up.

Me too. Me too.

Yes. There we go.