He's had his own way for so long until he just can't do right on his own. Someone has to force him to do right. Well, whenever you become the most powerful government on earth, if you're not careful, your car can get off the track. And because you have so much power when everybody's sitting around you tries to show you that you're going in the wrong direction, wrong direction. The fact that you can shut them all up, they become yes men, so to speak, to you. I watch this happen in leadership circles where people have a great deal of power as leaders. They become surrounded by yes men. And this creates a vacuum. They're being told they're right even when they're wrong. This is what the Negro had done with whites in this country for a long time. They've been in a position where they couldn't speak their mind, so they would always say exactly what the white men wanted to hear. Uncle Sam has heard this for so long. Uncle Sam thinks he's right when he's wrong. So the only way today to make Uncle Sam conscious of the criminal course that he's been following and the fact that he is guilty of such, he has to go into a court that he doesn't control. He has to be given an analysis of his actions that he has no control over. And then if he can be made to see that he is the guilty one, perhaps he can then atone. I should say he can then become repentant and atone by carrying out whatever the court says he must do to correct the problem. But he himself will never correct it of his own volition.

But if Uncle Sam is wrong.

Will this change the mind, the attitudes, the motivation?

Senate committees and congressional committee. Well, what it will do when the black men in this country has human rights. His civil rights are automatic. And in and then when he realizes this, you don't need legislation to correct the ills of the Negro. If he if if the Constitution exists and he was born in the country, while he has what's known as constitutional rights, you don't have to pass legislation to give rights to the Hungarians who come here from communist countries and are probably still Communist. You don't have to pass legislation to give rights to the Polish who have come here as refugees. They don't need new legislation for the Russians who come here. As soon anybody who comes here gets all of the rights that is due, a human being, the only one whose rights or civil rights are violated are the Negroes and the Negroes, Right. Civil rights are violated because in the mind of the American white man, as well as in the mind of the Negro himself, he's not a human being because he can speak. Well, it doesn't make him. Does it mean that he thinks he's a human being? If he thought if the Negro thought he was a human being, sir, he would be doing the same thing for himself that whites have done for themselves. He would be setting up some businesses. He would be developing some kind of industrial enterprises. He would be the creator of industry and the controller of of economies. If he thought that he was a human being, he could do the same thing for himself that other humans do for themselves. But the Negroes confidence in himself as a human being has been destroyed and must be restored. And once it's restored, he'll solve his own problem because he'll have human rights and everything else will be automatic. In fact, the Negro is the only one in a position to bring about a bloodless revolution. All revolutions have been bloody, but America is in a position now where in if she respected the Negro as a human being, it would actually revolutionize the political structure and the economic structure and even the political philosophy and economic philosophy of America. Because by including the Negro into it as a human on an equal level with everyone else, his vote alone would eliminate from Congress and the Senate all of the present racists and white supremacists who exercise control over foreign policy as well as domestic policy and the inclusion of the Negro into that body politic as a human being would eliminate the presence of the racists, the supremacists and these other very selfish persons who now control the government and are hitting it in the direction of disaster. So if the whites in this country wake up and see that the Constitution is in force, not new legislation, but if the present constitution is enforced and the Negro is isn't included in it, then you will have a peaceful revolution that will change. The corrupt course that this nation is on is on. But if he's not involved, if he's not included on that basis, then it will continue to go in a direction that will lead to nothing but a bloody revolution. And when I say bloody revolution, I mean a very bloody revolution.

And all wrath and an art. Stevenson in separation is one of your goals. At what point? In cooperation.

And how can you anticipate or expect that your call would be.

Shared by the co-operative groups?

Well, the setting up of independent governments and carrying out trade and commerce with all nations is not anything new. Separation doesn't mean that we're going to build a wall between the races. It only means that in a wall it will enable us to never look at each other or cooperate with each other. America separated from England and went because they were tired of being taxed. Taxation without representation and these other things. In fact, the same. The Negro has more complaints today and excuses for separation from this society than the early American colonies had. Colonialists had the 13 colonies. They didn't have as much justifiable excuse to separate from England as the 22 million Afro-Americans have today to separate from this society. Now, because America, the people on this continent separated from England, didn't mean that they became a separate entity that had hostility toward the country from which they separated. In fact, they built up a strong society of their own. And and in the same government that they separated from had to turn to them for aid. Many times since then, during war and as well as doing for economic aid during peace. So we don't feel that this separation that is being sought is something that's going to create hostility between the races. Actually, it is something that that will enable the black man who is separating himself to prove that he's a human being. He can't he can't prove he's a human being without separation. For example. When you are a child or a boy, you live at home with your father. And while you're living with your father, your father feeds you clothes and houses you. And because you are dependent upon him for all that, all of your necessities, you're under his jurisdiction. He tells you when to come in, when to go out. Where? In the house you can sleep. This is a form of segregation. It only means that your segregation means that it's something is being regulated. Now, when you become 21 and you want to be respected as a man or a mature human, the only way you can get the respect of a mature human are as a mature human. You have to separate yourself from your father. You leave his house and go out and set up a house for yourself. You get a job for yourself. You begin to provide yourself with food, clothing and shelter. And when your father sees that you have become able qualified to do for yourself that which up to now he has been doing for you, he recognizes you not as a boy any longer, but as a man. And there's no animosity or hostility. In fact, you get along well with each other. And the the despite the high educational level, professional level, so-called intellectual level of many Negroes in this country, you find whites have a tendency to still be for us as boys because we are we still rely we still rely upon them for everything that we have and everything that we need. The same as a child relies upon his father. Ralph Bunche is an internationally respected diplomat, but still whites referred to him as a good boy. They call Jackie Robinson as old as he is a good boy. I have never seen any group of whites that a black man could be around for any length of time who sooner or later won't be referred to him as a boy. Now, blacks resent this, but if they properly understood it, they'd understand why the black people have been relying upon the white man in the same way that a child relies upon his father. They even go to the point of referring to us as the white man's burden. So when you show the black man how to separate and do something for himself is all it means. This enables him to prove that he that once given the equality of opportunity, he can out of his own talent, do the same things for himself that other humans do for themselves, and then they respect him. I'm getting.

With England. England didn't support this separation.

This is a different kind of situation. Are you asking the white community to help support programs that.

Would separate you? And is this is this.

Reasonable to anticipate you supported it? Everything that she had over everything that was over here belonged to Indian England, you know? I know it. You took what was here and you nationalized in the white.

Community to support this separation. They will collaborate with you.

They say that, yes, the cooperation would be to this extent that the black men in this country contributed 400, 300 and some years a slave labor to make the economy of this country what it is today. His contribution was in slave labor, free labor, and also his blood was contributed to during every war that this country has has ever been involved in the contribution that the black. Man has made in the past is one for which he has never been paid. So instead of him sitting around getting it piecemeal in the form of tokenism, welfare programs, that in no way solves his problem. All we're saying is give us something and let us get over here and start doing something for ourselves. If the Harlem community is run down, then instead of spending all of the billions of dollars that Sam has spent trying to buy the friendship of the Yugoslavian, or by the friendship of the Poles or by the friendship of the people in India and in Latin America. Take some of these tax dollars and direct them into the black community with a program that is genuinely and sincerely design and not only an economic program, but an educational program to back up that economic program that is designed to show the black man how to do something toward running his own his own. Once he can run his community, he can run his own nation are very.

Very able. Now, I get the impression.

From some of your remarks that the white people have been an impediment in the.

Cause of racial justice and the move toward racial justice. Now in our efforts to try to help achieve racial justice. I'm somewhat confused where you think the white man can make any contribution. But then after the five sentences.

If I may be permitted to say whites are in a very precarious position in this whole situation, seldom can you find any one of them that doesn't have a deep sense of guilt. Now, when they make a move to when they when they are when they become guilt stricken, then if they're not careful, the moves that they make are actually designed to offset this sense of guilt. Ofttimes the moves are made like the whites will run out and wave the liberal banner not because they want to solve the problem. They're not interested in solving the problem. They're just interested in its say in saying, See, I'm trying to straighten it out. A white person who was genuinely sincere, in my opinion, about straightening this problem out, he doesn't call himself a liberal. He doesn't call himself anything. He goes to work to try and do from his own knowledge and understanding of the basic factors involved in the problem. He goes to work at those root causes without sounding the bugle, without looking for someone to stand up and applaud. And this type of activity on the part of whites will get results. But these bugle blowers are dangerous. For one, as I as I was mentioning last night, I was integrated before they invented the word. I grew up in a white community where I was the only black face around for a while. And the school that I went to, I was only Negro in the school and I lived with a white family. Now. That experience taught me this, that they are intelligent. They know how to go about getting what they want for themselves. The experts at that look at the country that they got. So. If they would exercise that same ingenuity in giving advice to the Negro community. Where advice is needed, we would find some progress made. I am going to I tell you, frankly, the Negro leaders don't know the problem. Many of them are not sincere. Most of them are personally motivated and very few of them will stick their neck out to the extent that they think that they won't get some kind of white support. And ofttimes, they're not so much concerned with the type of white support that they get as long as they get white support. The first thing whites have to be able to do is sit down with the elements in the Negro community. A white man here and a black man here and speak as a white man and let him speak as a black man. This whole thing about we've got to forget black and white, you forgetting reality. If I'm a black man, let me speak as a black man. And if you a white man speak as a white man. This is that's not racist. This is reality. Because I know you're going to speak as a white man anyway. All I'm saying is give me the right to speak as a black man.

Or as a white man to suspect, because I also have a Southern accent. Let me.

Not necessarily. If you got a Southern accent, I think that a southern white man can look at this thing just as objectively and even more so than a northern white man. In fact, he probably will look at it more objectively.

Boeing. Anyway, we have to proceed in a separate state because I think that the majority of Negroes, as well as a majority of whites, see a certain reality in your philosophy there. But at the same time, I feel that it's completely unworkable or impractical. They see that Israel has set up its state after a good many years of prosecution. At the same time, Jews are integrated around the world. Would you just comment on how this would work? I mean, usually this is a state in the Midwest. I'll be glad to give you across the South Dakota. No, I mean, seriously, how do you how do you how do you see this? If you had your choice, if you were sitting at the bargaining table now and the white power structure, said, Mr. X, you can have whatever territory you want. You choose it. You set it up. Now, can you tell us what it look like?

Well, first, as a student of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and having first been exposed to this idea when it was voiced by him, I've always heard him say that if the government of America could incorporate the black people of the in this country into the mainstream of American life, the problem would be solved. But the government can't do it. Wallace Victory in Wisconsin is a good example of it in this northern liberal state or a liberal northern northern state.

Well, you can have that as far as.

The. I frankly don't think that Georgia is any Southern any more so in the South than New York or Massachusetts. To me, the south is everything south of the Canadian border and everything south of the Canadian border is segregated and is is the victim of discrimination. What he has said is if the government could give equal justice to our people, then good, the problem would be solved. But if the government can, what Mr. Muhammad has always said, the only solution is for our people to become involved in a mass exodus back home to Africa. This is his first solution and that the government should finance it. We didn't pay any bear to come here. We were brought here in chains. And not only should the government finance it, but should give us our share, our investment that we have in the entire what do you call it, gross national product or whatever it is, Give us our share and let us go back home and start life anew in our own homeland after many long years of unhappy slavery in this country. And if the government does not want us to go back home, then he says that since we there is no peace mixed up together and relations are actually getting worse, much worse. The only solution, if we must stay on this continent is give us a section, an area to which we can migrate and give us what we need to start our own society, our own economy, and our own society, and let us get in a position where we can carry on trade and commerce with this country as well as with other nations and this and this. And in this way, we'll get some kind of solution to the problem. And the Negroes who don't want to go, you can have them. You can keep them. They'll stay here. But let those who want to go, go. No. Some people say that that's impractical. But to me, it's the only thing that is practical. If you can't bring about integration with the with Johnson supposedly for it and in his cabinet, the Senate, the Congress, the Supreme Court and the country is supposed to be for integration. But we don't find any integration. To me, integration is the most impractical idea that anyone has come up with yet. The Supreme Court desegregation. Why they can't even implement that. The most impractical solution that has ever been offered is integration. The most hypocritical solution that has ever been offered is integration. And in my humble opinion, when you when I find a white man who says he believes in integration, far as I'm concerned, he's a hypocrite because the ones who say it aren't even integrated and don't live in integrated neighborhoods. So it's just not a good solution.

The men around this table who are staff of organized relations operate within an annual budget of in excess of $15 million. What would be the most strategic use as a portion of a portion of that money in the struggle?

It has to be designed to reeducate the black men or black people in this country. And by reeducate, I mean supply their intellect with the missing ingredient, the one ingredient that is missing, that is not missing from the intellect of any other people on this earth. And that is the thing that dehumanized us, the thing that brought us to the level where we could safely be regarded as something less than a human being was when our cultural roots were destroyed. Most Negroes as well as whites, in fact, you know, if whites in this country were given an objective picture of the type of culture, the type of empires that really existed on the African continent in the 16th century when slavery first got its. Start, many white people would be shocked and they would take a new look at the Negro. Not only would whites be shocked. Negroes would be shocked. Everyone would. The whites with the Negro would take a new look at himself. And the white would also then take a new look at the Negro. The Negro would take a new look at himself. Because the only reason now that an eye for a Negro leaders in trying to justify the fact that they have a Jewish president of the NAACP eye for a Negro Leader say that this is the only way the organization could be held together. Wow. This is shocking. I've heard Negro leaders justify their presence for a one of a Negro organization like the NAACP with without ever having had a black man to hit it by coming up with the excuse that there were all kinds of excuses. Well, it means that the Negro doesn't think he can lead his own struggle. He doesn't think he can lead his own organization. He doesn't believe in his economic leadership. His political leadership. He doesn't believe in anything that he should be doing of his own volition. So when this is recognized, then what the white community can do that really wants to help the Negro must be shown like Peter showed. Better pick up your bed and walk. Don't give him know any nickels and dimes, but give him that which will enable him to see that he once walked. And if he sees that he once walked, he can walk again. But as long as the man doesn't think he has never walked, he'll never walk without your help. And the white people in this country, he is one of the black people in this country must be shown the part that the black man on the African continent was able to play in science, in civilization and in culture in the past. And then whites will realize, well, if he did it, then he can do it now. And Negroes will realize if they did it, then they can do it now.

The African continent.

Involved doesn't have responsibility for involvement in this struggle.

Yes, it does. But you see, why have they been down? There's a book called Anti-Slavery by Dwight Law Doman, which is a very good book in which it is documented that over 100 million humans were taken from the African continent. 100 million humans were taken from the African continent. Now, you don't take 100 million. And they weren't the lowest. They weren't the those that had no talent or no skill. But a society was being established in the West that needed the most skilled, the most, the most artful craftsmen. So they took from that continent those who were who excelled in metalwork, woodwork, in agriculture, masonry and brought them here. And when you go and study the contribution that this you don't a savage doesn't make a good slave who has no learning. There is no talent. What good is he? He must be able to do something. So this the the the. Those who occupied the highest positions in African society were the ones who. Who brought the highest price. And and this removal of 100 million souls, humans from that continent destroyed the social structure. The governmental structure destroyed the entire culture, cultural pattern in civilization that existed. And once it was destroyed, it toppled. Then the jungle covered it up, it disappeared. And so today, whites who are the recipient ofttimes of the same type of education Negroes are when it comes to perpetuating the idea of white supremacy, which means they must downgrade the role of the black man in the contribution of things. Whites themselves don't realize this. And there's a magazine that was put out by it by Unesco in 19 in October of 1959, which is called The Rediscovery of Africa. As these African nations emerge, African nations emerged to independence. They demanded that the history of the African continent be rewritten. The United Nations undertook to do this. And they went back and began to bring forth documents to prove that the level of culture that existed on that continent was higher than the level of culture that existed in Europe at the same time. And and if whites were made to see this in the textbooks in schools, their attitude, their image of the Negro would change. And if Negroes also were reacquainted with this, the image of themselves would change. And if this is not done, the problem will continue. Because what you're going to do is continue to tell this man, give this man some nickels and dimes, and every day he'll still be begging you for the same thing.

I'm going to have to break in here. As chairman of the cabinet at this point, to express, I think, on behalf of all of the Cabinet, our appreciation to you, Mr. X, for your work. Willingness to join in a conversation with us. This conversation must not end here. I think I know I, for one, have learned a good deal today. I've read a lot. A lot of it has been misunderstood by the press, I'm sure. And I think the only way that those of us who are responsible for conducting, again, within an institutional framework called the church and specifically the Board of National Missions, as we try to develop our program and to give direction to the units and within our responsibility, the only way that we can really develop this program intelligently is to have conversation with men like yourself. And at the same time hope that some of our fears, some of our hopes and dreams, while they may seem unrealistic to many and to various organizations, will become more intelligible to you. So that together, as we look down the road, we hope not too distant future that Christianity and its motivation of love at this point will become as powerful in its objectives as some of the other objectives that have been articulated. One closing statement.

From all of us, something that.

I wanted to ask. I think everyone here.

Around this table. Would assume that we are all one. There is no essential difference. Because of the.

Color of our skin, not the. Program of the.

Church has been a non segregated church and a non segregated society. Would you feel that this is passé today and that the resources of, say, the Board of National Missions ought to be directed.

In channels whereby. People of.

Not quite sure just how to put it, but I think this is what Dave was getting at. Should the white man. Lead here in terms of giving direction to this. More humane understanding of. Appreciated the valued persons in our society. Or should we? In other words, what is the role of the church? As far as the white man is concerned in terms of its mission?

Just what? Because the white man has gotten a balanced academic diet in his schooling or in his efforts to become school educated, he's in a better position to face the facts and analyze the problem. He can look at the Negro and he knows why the Negro is not acceptable in society. He knows why other white don't want a Negro in the neighborhood. And whites have a justifiable reason. The property value, the property values do drop. They do drop. This doesn't mean that it always has to be that way. But they do drop when whites, with their scientific knowledge, can see why these things come about. They have to be in a position to tell the Negro, not tell the Negro. No, the property values don't drop or the level of the school doesn't drop when Negroes move in. If the level of the school in a Negro community is low, there has to be a reason. Whites know what that reason is. They should tell the Negro if the. If the Negro seems to. Be prone toward fornication and adultery. Which results in. Illegitimacy. A high rate of illegitimacy. It's not a stereotype to tell Negroes that this exists, but whites are afraid to tell Negroes that this exist. They think they'll be labeled as a racist. Some kind of honest communication has to be developed where the whites who understand the problem feel free to tell the Negroes this is the cause of it and the Negro community will listen. The community will listen. It's the leaders who won't listen. And that's where your problem will lie. I don't know if I hit your.

Does this phrase a non segregated church in a non segregated society? Is this passé? Should this be? Put now in new terms.

If I understand you correctly. Yes. Because to me, segregation means to regulate or control that which you have under your jurisdiction. You can't desegregate a church forcibly. Any time someone has to force his way or forced entry into a church, a house of worship, he's not in a house of worship anywhere. He's not in any house of God anyway. The churches should be where whites could go to any church they want and feel that they'll be receptive or received properly. Negroes should feel that they can go to any church they want and feel that they would be properly received. But. When you get a situation where you you have to force the church to accept Negroes, that's it's like forcing the man to pray. Persuasion rather Well, persuasion, if it's done through education, which means that then the door is open voluntarily.