Cliff Kirkpatrick oral history, 2023.

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    All right. Today is Thursday, the
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    7th of September,
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    2023. And this is our third
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    conversation with the Reverand
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    Doctor Clifton Kirkpatrick,
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    Stated Clerk Emeritus
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    of the General Assembly of the
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    Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) who
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    also served as a past president
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    of the World Alliance of Reformed
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    Churches and is
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    a retired professor of ecumenical
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    studies and world Christianity
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    at Louisville Presbyterian
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    Theological Seminary.
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    And this is a continuing
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    series as part of the oral history
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    project sponsored
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    by the Presbyterian Historical
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    Society.
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    Cliff, it's so good to be with you
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    today.
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    We had such rich conversations, the
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    last two conversations.
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    Well, I appreciate it too.
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    Glad we finally made this happen
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    because it's worth it.
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    And I am grateful
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    that you stuck with it and got
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    it to--got it this point.
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    I look forward to, you know, the
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    conversation today.
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    Indeed. And it is a--it's a blessing
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    because you were a part
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    of and you helped shape the
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    history of us Presbyterians and
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    really the reformed family worldwide
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    in the
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    various
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    ministry calls that you've had over
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    the past decades.
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    And so in our--.
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    In our continuing conversation
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    where we left off--.
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    And so why don't we cover
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    where we left off, as we were
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    talking about during your
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    first term as Stated Clerk
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    of the General Assembly,
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    you had led a PC(USA) delegation
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    to the Vatican.
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    Yes.
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    And you had
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    the opportunity to have a personal
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    audience with the Holy Father, then
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    Pope John Paul II.
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    Can you share a little--?
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    That's one I'll never--I'll never
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    forget, and I think I've shared
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    that with you, that what we were
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    not expecting happened with a
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    very gracious outreach by the Pope.
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    What we had--. Basically, we had
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    come into a conversation
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    at the Vatican out of an invitation
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    from the--from the Holy Father
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    that [we] wanted
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    to pursue our relationships
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    back and forth.
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    But had--.
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    When we got there, we
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    had the usual. He read a paper.
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    I read a paper.
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    We went back and forth, and finally
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    he set the script aside and
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    said, "Well, we may keep going, but
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    as far as I'm concerned,
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    arrivederci." And then he put in
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    every language that people spoke
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    manly the [unclear] language,
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    and we were wishing arrivederci
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    to everybody there.
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    Reminds you that when we think of
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    all these, you know, formal matters,
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    that there's some real human flesh
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    and blood that's behind them.
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    And it makes it a good story
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    and a good experience.
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    And at least one
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    sign of the--of the humanity
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    and good spirit
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    of the people in the Vatican
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    was one that took place that day.
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    That's wonderful.
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    That's wonderful. So it's those
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    lighthearted moments where
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    the--where the
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    full humanity of people and--and
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    the relationships matter.
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    So great for that.
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    And it--. You had shared before
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    that was
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    one among several, right? One
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    among several ecumenical
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    engagements that you had
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    as Stated Clerk at the General
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    Assembly with the
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    Roman Catholic Church.
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    Is that right?
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    Yes.
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    Well, there were a number of those.
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    And it's a credit
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    both to the Presbyterian Church
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    but also to the Vatican
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    that there's been that kind of
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    conscious outreach.
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    We know that some of the rules
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    and procedures kind of get as a
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    barrier between us.
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    But--but
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    when you really press it deep, we
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    have the common line[?] [that] created
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    the reconciliation,
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    for involvement of people to work
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    for justice. And you
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    get a feeling at the end that
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    arrivederci is also a
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    welcome sense
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    about being together
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    for the cause of Christ.
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    That's right. Amen.
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    Amen.
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    Amen.
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    I want to--.
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    I want to delve a little on
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    your work with the
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    World Council of Churches
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    as you were
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    very extensively, intensely
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    involved with the work of the World
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    Council. And
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    particularly, you had some
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    working relationships and
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    friendships with the
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    two general secretaries during
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    your tenure as Stated Clerk: General
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    Secretary Konrad Raiser
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    and General Secretary Sam Kobia.
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    Can you share your thoughts about
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    either of those General Secretaries
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    and your working relationships with
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    them?
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    They're wonderful people.
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    And the good thing--good
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    news is that these are folks
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    that are
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    accessible to us, and kind of really
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    represented the ecumenical movement.
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    So we have had a--.
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    We've been blessed by having people
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    like Sam Kobia
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    and Konrad Raiser
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    who are two of the leaders in my
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    time there. I had the privilege of
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    preaching at the installation
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    service for--for--.
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    Sam.
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    Well, for Sam, yes indeed.
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    It was for Sam.
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    And so any rate
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    that--. It's been a rich experience
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    with all of those.
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    First time I met
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    Sam Kobia, we were
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    at the General Assembly in 1983 of
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    the World Council of Churches.
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    And I hardly knew anything about the
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    World Council at that point.
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    And this African--young
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    African youth delegate,
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    as I was a youth delegate,
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    got [unclear] to us. And Sam
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    Kobia challenged me to a tennis
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    match at the University
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    at--in British Columbia, and
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    he beat the tar out of me.
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    And it was a--.
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    It made me appreciate that he had
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    more than just
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    rules and procedures.
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    That we have--we have
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    people that are really human
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    and great
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    experience in our camp
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    as well.
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    That's wonderful.
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    I should add, by the way, that Sam
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    Kobia does send his greetings to
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    you. I was with him at the Central
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    Committee--WCC Central
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    Committee--last June in Geneva.
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    So he sends his best to you.
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    Well send my greetings back to him.
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    I will do that.
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    I will do that.
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    Cliff, from your--from your
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    years at the World Council
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    of Churches when you were Stated
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    Clerk from 1996
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    through 2008, what
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    do you remember from your--from your
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    work with the WCC during that
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    period?
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    What stands out to you?
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    Well, just to me personally,
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    the world of the Orthodox churches
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    was really--.
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    Growing up as Presbyterian in
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    Memphis, Tennessee, you didn't spend
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    a whole lot of time hanging out with
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    the people from the Orthodox
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    tradition, and yet that tradition
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    is so rich, so historic,
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    and so large. And
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    it's really a cause for a
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    reassessment
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    of the--of the gift that the
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    Orthodox Christians bring our way.
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    It's sometimes frustrating because
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    they are so different in some ways
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    than us, but it's also
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    a rich source.
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    And I think with all of
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    the tragedy
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    that's going on in the Ukraine
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    and the like, you don't see much of
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    it in the press.
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    But, you know, that's fundamentally
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    is also a theological
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    argument that's going on there.
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    And it's a place,
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    I think, that the work of the
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    Orthodox community has something to
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    offer.
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    That's right.
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    That's right. Yeah.
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    Especially in that--in that
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    tragedy that's still ongoing in
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    our--in our present time.
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    The other--. The other global
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    counselor--. The
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    other global ecumenical expression
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    that you were intensely involved in,
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    that you became a leader
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    in, was the World Alliance
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    of Reformed Churches that
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    then became the World Communion of
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    Reformed Churches.
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    Can you share a little bit about
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    that work
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    with the World Alliance that then
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    became the World Communion and your
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    working relationship with, then,
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    General Secretary Setri Nyomi?
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    Well, if there is one thing I feel
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    best about in my ecumenical
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    service, it probably is the
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    service I've been able to render
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    to the World Alliance, World
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    Communion of Churches.
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    I encountered that new work, first
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    of all in 1982.
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    I had just been
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    elected to, as we said
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    in the--earlier about going to play
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    tennis with--and the World Council.
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    The--.
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    Also there was--.
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    At that meeting was the meeting
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    when the
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    whole notion that the--that
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    sin is--is
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    at the heart of
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    the movement of people
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    that are--that are
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    behind the
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    hatred and racism and destruction.
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    And the World Alliance in
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    those days really gave leadership
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    to the world global community
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    to work to overcome
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    racism, to seek
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    not only a proper
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    doctrine but to change
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    the confessional nature of the
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    church. That whole Belhar
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    Confession comes out of the
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    experience of Christians, largely
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    from the Global South.
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    And it challenged us all.
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    And now, we as a church
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    and other churches along with us,
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    have added this to our Book of
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    Confessions.
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    And that has made a real difference
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    in--when the questions are being
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    raised in our own church about
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    how we respond to racism, how we
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    make a difference in the world.
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    The Gift of the
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    Belhar Confession is a great
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    resource for doing that.
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    And so in so many ways, the
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    World Alliance and
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    the World Commun[ion] offer that
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    prophetic, prophetic
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    word, right?
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    And the prophetic leadership that
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    both the church and the world needs.
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    And when
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    you and General Secretary Nyomi
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    were working for
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    the notion of the Alliance becoming
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    a communion for the sake of
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    justice--I think that was the
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    tagline, "Communion for the sake of
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    justice." Can you share
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    a little bit about that--.
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    That change
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    of word is not just a change of word
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    cosmetically, but there's
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    theological substance to that
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    from [unclear]--.
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    There's deep theology, and
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    there was deep debate about it.
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    But historically, that has been
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    the term that we used for the
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    reformed tradition. That's an
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    alliance out of a tradition
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    that sometime[s] been suspicious
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    about the
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    rules and procedures and so forth.
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    But at any rate, that
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    movement stepped aside and all
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    of a sudden we were
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    in a confessional mood ourselves.
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    And that
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    was a--.
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    At any rate, that was a movement
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    that has affected our lives.
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    It has certainly affected the
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    PC(USA), but it's also
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    affected others who
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    need a confession that can help
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    move along a commitment to justice
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    as--not just as a program, but
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    as it really the heart of the Gospel
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    itself.
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    That's right.
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    In many ways that builds off of
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    other traditions--the Barmen
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    Confession being one--that
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    has placed us as a reformed
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    communion at the heart of
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    Christian confessionalism.
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    That's not simply dealing with
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    rules and procedures, but is
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    dealing with the heart and soul,
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    love and compassion.
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    Amen. That's right.
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    That's right.
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    In your--. In those years
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    leading up to the historic
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    uniting General Council in 2010,
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    in Grand Rapids, Michigan.
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    Can you share a little bit
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    what you remember about the--the
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    years that you
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    and Setri Nyomi were working
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    together with your counterparts
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    Richard Van Houten and
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    Douwe Visser with
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    the Reformed Ecumenical Council
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    and the merger talks to form the
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    World Communion of Reformed
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    Churches? What was that like?
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    Well, a lot of folks don't think we
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    have any business left in the
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    confessional theology,
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    but it's been interesting to
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    discover and work closely with
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    another reformed community.
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    This one growing out of origins in
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    the Netherlands and in South Africa,
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    but that, you
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    know, that there is a future and a
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    present to the
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    reformed movement that also
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    is confessional.
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    Setri Nyomi is one of the most
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    inspirational people in my life
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    and has had an
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    incredible influence on
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    the whole reformed Protestant
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    movement. He comes out of a
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    situation in Ghana that
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    needs badly the kind of leadership
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    he brings, and he's brought that
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    leadership forward to a very
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    helpful and creative way.
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    Indeed. Indeed.
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    Yeah, our--our dear mutual friend.
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    He continues to lead there
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    the Presbyterian Church in Ghana.
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    And, of course, your successor
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    as president of the Alliance when it
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    then became the World Communion
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    is no other than Jerry
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    Pillay who's now the general
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    secretary of the World Council of
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    Churches. And so a lot of--a lot
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    of leadership from the reformed
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    family to the global ecumenical
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    movement.
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    Well, and I didn't--. I'm afraid[?] I
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    didn't respond to your earlier--your
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    earlier comment about the Communion
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    moving into being
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    an Alliance. And
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    replacing--using that concept
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    of communion
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    is really at the heart of what we're
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    about. An alliance is something
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    you enter into with people you
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    don't fully trust, but you can agree
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    on three, four, five factors.
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    Communion is something
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    that is at the heart of who we are
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    and our identity and our being and
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    our sense of mission.
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    And it was clear in the reformed
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    tradition that we had made--moved to
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    the point, and we were now ready
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    to be a communion and not simply
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    an alliance.
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    And I think that has really
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    influenced our movement.
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    It's influenced when we explain
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    that. It's influenced our church.
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    It's a very
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    important development,
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    and Setri Nyomi is clearly
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    the key to that.
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    But also Douwe and
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    Richard are people
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    that have lived that out and
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    represented another
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    tradition of the reformed family,
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    now one tradition.
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    [cell phone ringing]
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    Right. Indeed.
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    Well, that's--.
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    And then the other--the other
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    conciliar bodies that you were part
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    of as Stated Clerk of the General
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    Assembly was the National
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    Council of Churches in the USA,
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    the Churches Uniting in Christ, and
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    Christian Churches Together--three
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    national councils.
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    What are some of your takeaways from
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    those engagements with those
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    conciliar bodies in the United
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    States?
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    Well, I think part of it is that
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    we--that it's--it's
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    what I said earlier.
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    That it's--.
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    The movement is not just
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    international. It's not just
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    the [unclear] on the side of the
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    world, but it's
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    true to the heart of who we are.
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    And that's why it's so important
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    we find a way to be engaged as a
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    church, because what's
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    happening is that, obviously, the
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    Christian movement is now primarily
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    in the Global South, and we
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    need to be connecting all those
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    movements in different parts of the
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    world that
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    can make a difference for Christ.
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    Yeah.
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    Now of course, when we talk about
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    ecumenical and interreligious
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    engagement, we have to talk
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    about your longtime partner
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    in that when you were Stated Clerk: the
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    late Reverend Robina Winbush, our
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    very dear, beloved friend.
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    Heaven's gain, but our loss.
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    Can you share a little bit about
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    when you called Robina
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    to serve as Director of Ecumenical
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    [and] Interreligious Relations and
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    then your working relationship and
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    friendship with Robina?
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    Well, I think that maybe the best
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    illustration of that is what
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    did happen after we offered
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    the position of being the ecumenical
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    coordinator for the denomination to
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    Robina.
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    And she said, "Yeah, but I have
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    one condition." And I,
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    with fear and trembling, walked in
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    and said, "Okay, tell me what it
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    is." And they said,
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    "You have to get my congregation and
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    my--and my
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    family behind this movement." And
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    they have had some hesitation
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    over the years.
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    But I mean, it was their support
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    added to the natural ecumenical
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    gifts that Robina brings to
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    it. And the
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    insightful wisdom that she offered
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    made her a powerful dynamo to the
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    ecumenical movement.
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    That's an excellent descriptor of
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    Robina and--a
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    dynamo--and that
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    heart that she has for justice
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    and for the community, for the
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    people, and so you
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    [are] right on target in that
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    descriptor. And we
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    miss Robina, and in
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    ecumenical spaces, we still
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    experience her legacy in so many
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    ways.
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    Yes we do.
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    Cliff, I want to switch gears a
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    little bit.
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    So still on these years
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    as Stated Clerk of the General
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    Assembly, once you now go
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    to your
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    role as one of the agency
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    heads.
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    And your relationship
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    with the various executive
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    directors of
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    the then General
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    Assembly Council or the General
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    Assembly Mission Council, the
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    Presbyterian Mission Agency.
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    Here we're talking about Jim Brown,
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    John Dietrich, Linda Valentine.
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    Well, those three people and other
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    folks like J.
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    Herbert Nelson and
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    Gradey Parsons and others did--.
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    Quickly, just to read those
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    names is to celebrate
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    that God has given us really
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    good people to be in leadership in
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    the life of our churches.
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    And that is such a blessing that
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    you're not spending your energy in
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    conflict and
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    things like that as a matter of
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    daily interest.
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    We have lived, I think, in a hard
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    place. At reunion back in 1983,
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    there was great
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    eagerness and
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    passion about the [unclear]
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    movement, but a kind of--in
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    a sense that it's going to really
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    move and go places.
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    However, nobody quite
  • speaker
    added up all the funds that were
  • speaker
    required to take that over.
  • speaker
    And so we went into a series
  • speaker
    that--. After a[n]
  • speaker
    initial year with the
  • speaker
    three people
  • speaker
    in leadership we've mentioned, and
  • speaker
    others, you know--when the end
  • speaker
    of that first two years period came,
  • speaker
    basically there was only one
  • speaker
    director left, and that was me.
  • speaker
    So I felt kind of lonely at that.
  • speaker
    Because I do think those
  • speaker
    kind of folks--Linda
  • speaker
    and John and
  • speaker
    Jim--they're just
  • speaker
    quality people, and
  • speaker
    they are--they have insights
  • speaker
    and work together.
  • speaker
    And I think in many ways they were
  • speaker
    not given the--as
  • speaker
    great a trust and supporter
  • speaker
    as one would hope.
  • speaker
    [Unclear]
  • speaker
    You had shared in the--in the prior
  • speaker
    conversation that the years
  • speaker
    following reunion,
  • speaker
    and perhaps even
  • speaker
    jutting into the
  • speaker
    late nineties when
  • speaker
    you became Stated Clerk and--that
  • speaker
    the PC(USA) was still trying to
  • speaker
    figure out how to live as a reunited
  • speaker
    church.
  • speaker
    The merger of the mission boards.
  • speaker
    Did you see--. Did you experience a
  • speaker
    little bit of that? Sort of the--the
  • speaker
    vestiges or the residue
  • speaker
    of that from the eighties into the
  • speaker
    late nineties of still trying
  • speaker
    to figure out what it meant
  • speaker
    to be a reunited church?
  • speaker
    Yes.
  • speaker
    Well, it was a--.
  • speaker
    It was a sort of struggle
  • speaker
    about the, you know, what--what's
  • speaker
    critical to being a reunited church
  • speaker
    and not just--. It's about like the
  • speaker
    alliance conversation and communion.
  • speaker
    Internally, we need to apply that
  • speaker
    same notion and really
  • speaker
    make use of a common
  • speaker
    mission commitment. Part of
  • speaker
    what I think is interesting is that
  • speaker
    there have been a lot of changes
  • speaker
    that were coming with reunion,
  • speaker
    and they required
  • speaker
    some changes, give and take.
  • speaker
    But one of the gifts that we were
  • speaker
    inherited from our predecessor is
  • speaker
    that the people working in World
  • speaker
    Mission and Ecumenical Relations
  • speaker
    between the
  • speaker
    PC(USA) and
  • speaker
    other denominations
  • speaker
    really were people that
  • speaker
    pretty much saw the issues in the
  • speaker
    same way. And because we
  • speaker
    had worked in World Mission for
  • speaker
    greater--greater
  • speaker
    common witness and greater strength
  • speaker
    in World Mission, we were
  • speaker
    able to make that transition in a
  • speaker
    way that people in other functions
  • speaker
    of the church's life found it more
  • speaker
    difficult.
  • speaker
    So we didn't have
  • speaker
    quite as much difficulty as moving
  • speaker
    on--moving to the next step
  • speaker
    as some of our
  • speaker
    colleagues did.
  • speaker
    And it--.
  • speaker
    I think it cost us.
  • speaker
    All right.
  • speaker
    Well, in--. During your tenure
  • speaker
    as Stated Clerk and--. I
  • speaker
    recall the first time that you and I
  • speaker
    met back in 1998; that's
  • speaker
    when I started in the General
  • speaker
    Assembly Council.
  • speaker
    You were two years into your term as
  • speaker
    Stated Clerk, but I already got
  • speaker
    a sense of the emphasis that you
  • speaker
    were starting and just really
  • speaker
    carried through
  • speaker
    your subsequent tenure as Stated
  • speaker
    Clerk.
  • speaker
    Your focus on the confessions
  • speaker
    and your focus on--on
  • speaker
    cultivating those relationships with
  • speaker
    our governing bodies, the mid
  • speaker
    councils.
  • speaker
    Can you share with us about your
  • speaker
    commitment to the confessions
  • speaker
    as Stated Clerk and then the--your
  • speaker
    engagement with the mid councils,
  • speaker
    the governing bodies?
  • speaker
    Okay.
  • speaker
    Well, first,
  • speaker
    the confessions.
  • speaker
    I think, I mean, you know, every
  • speaker
    way we expect highly that our--that
  • speaker
    our ministers
  • speaker
    and elders really do
  • speaker
    hold to the essentials of the
  • speaker
    reformed faith.
  • speaker
    We've moved away restrictive
  • speaker
    ideas, which did more to
  • speaker
    a sense of the gift that those
  • speaker
    reformed churches and reformed
  • speaker
    confessions
  • speaker
    can make and do make a
  • speaker
    source of strength for our church.
  • speaker
    What was the other part of that
  • speaker
    question?
  • speaker
    And then the governing bodies
  • speaker
    your engagement with mid councils,
  • speaker
    the presbyteries and synods?
  • speaker
    Well, after reunion, we were
  • speaker
    convinced that it was--we
  • speaker
    must have to develop a new covenant
  • speaker
    with the--with
  • speaker
    congregations and not just have
  • speaker
    the rules and procedures and
  • speaker
    different emphases.
  • speaker
    And so Tom Dietrich
  • speaker
    and I took on the project--I'd
  • speaker
    probably never do again--which--we
  • speaker
    made an invitation to every
  • speaker
    presbytery in the denomination
  • speaker
    for us to come and have a dialog
  • speaker
    together between the Assembly and
  • speaker
    the presbyteries about
  • speaker
    how we might
  • speaker
    use what God is doing in the
  • speaker
    presbyteries as a source of
  • speaker
    real renewal.
  • speaker
    And so that focus on presbyteries
  • speaker
    had an early
  • speaker
    effort. I need to say
  • speaker
    doing those, basically
  • speaker
    about five a week,
  • speaker
    you begin to get a little tired.
  • speaker
    But it's a tiredness that's good,
  • speaker
    and one that helps us
  • speaker
    keep the faith in straight.
  • speaker
    And those were--. Those were so
  • speaker
    helpful and beneficial
  • speaker
    in connecting General Assembly
  • speaker
    with the presbyteries, synods,
  • speaker
    sessions.
  • speaker
    And so thank you for doing that, you
  • speaker
    and John. And
  • speaker
    I recall one--.
  • speaker
    We did a little of that also
  • speaker
    with what we came to
  • speaker
    call affinity groups and
  • speaker
    to try to find a way, which is much
  • speaker
    harder, to get these groups that
  • speaker
    want to stay and want to be part of
  • speaker
    the Presbyterian Church, but have a
  • speaker
    particular angle that they
  • speaker
    care for and want to work on.
  • speaker
    And that continues to be an issue in
  • speaker
    the church, but I think we've made
  • speaker
    some real progress of saying we
  • speaker
    need each other and it's time
  • speaker
    to really focus on
  • speaker
    the things that are common ground
  • speaker
    among us more than
  • speaker
    the things that are different.
  • speaker
    That's right.
  • speaker
    That's right.
  • speaker
    During that period as well.
  • speaker
    I think it was '03 or so--'02,
  • speaker
    '03. There was discussions about
  • speaker
    moving the
  • speaker
    General Assemblies from what was an
  • speaker
    annual gathering, annual
  • speaker
    meeting--the General Assembly--to
  • speaker
    biennial. And
  • speaker
    then beginning in 2004
  • speaker
    and since then, we've moved to
  • speaker
    a biennial, every two year, General
  • speaker
    Assembly.
  • speaker
    What was that like? What was the
  • speaker
    discussions and
  • speaker
    sort of the considerations to
  • speaker
    move from annual General Assemblies
  • speaker
    to biennial General Assemblies?
  • speaker
    Well, in one sense the group I'm
  • speaker
    doing this--this
  • speaker
    audio for is who
  • speaker
    was at the heart of the matter.
  • speaker
    Where particularly, you know,
  • speaker
    there was a sense in which the
  • speaker
    denomination could not continue to
  • speaker
    be a good [unclear] be able
  • speaker
    to afford
  • speaker
    carrying two historical
  • speaker
    foundations. Like
  • speaker
    moving that to one, we save
  • speaker
    a million dollars a year--a year,
  • speaker
    and we do the same thing
  • speaker
    with the--with
  • speaker
    the assembly meetings.
  • speaker
    Those meetings could usually run a
  • speaker
    budget of two, three million
  • speaker
    dollars. If you can get rid of one
  • speaker
    of those in every two to three years
  • speaker
    without sacrificing the--the
  • speaker
    integrity of the--of
  • speaker
    the witness of
  • speaker
    the General Assembly, then you make
  • speaker
    a responsible stewardship of
  • speaker
    that. So those
  • speaker
    were two areas where
  • speaker
    we tried not to be
  • speaker
    moving away from
  • speaker
    things that are really important for
  • speaker
    us. But it didn't seem fully
  • speaker
    that meeting once
  • speaker
    every three year [unclear] meeting
  • speaker
    every two--every two years
  • speaker
    was--was that detrimental.
  • speaker
    And it certainly was helpful to us
  • speaker
    to be able not to--.
  • speaker
    Instead of that, they have basically
  • speaker
    didn't fail
  • speaker
    to continue the work because
  • speaker
    we tried to do it every year.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    Yeah. And it has worked well.
  • speaker
    It has worked--. It has worked well
  • speaker
    to have it every two years, and
  • speaker
    it allows the--the
  • speaker
    church to, not only breathe,
  • speaker
    but to also
  • speaker
    live into the priorities of a
  • speaker
    prior General Assembly.
  • speaker
    Yeah, we--.
  • speaker
    If you look at the pattern, we've
  • speaker
    basically had our actions
  • speaker
    that we take usually involve two
  • speaker
    years one presbytery takes something
  • speaker
    and it gets to--referred by
  • speaker
    another and you see that
  • speaker
    pattern working in there.
  • speaker
    And biennial assemblies
  • speaker
    feeds right into that.
  • speaker
    Mm-hm. That's right.
  • speaker
    That's right.
  • speaker
    Now,
  • speaker
    when you were starting your tenure
  • speaker
    as--as Stated Clerk
  • speaker
    in '96, did
  • speaker
    you receive any word of advice
  • speaker
    from Jim Andrews, from--from
  • speaker
    Eugene Carson Blake, from
  • speaker
    others as you were taking on
  • speaker
    that--that responsibility?
  • speaker
    Well, Eugene Carson Blake, I regret
  • speaker
    deeply that he and his time
  • speaker
    in the General Assembly had ended
  • speaker
    just before mine began, so we did
  • speaker
    not--. Though I have
  • speaker
    incredible appreciation for him and
  • speaker
    the work to overcome racism
  • speaker
    and the ecumenical leadership and
  • speaker
    the public policy. I mean, he
  • speaker
    is the best of our tradition.
  • speaker
    But I did not
  • speaker
    know him as well.
  • speaker
    The ones I
  • speaker
    knew well were
  • speaker
    the ones we've talked about.
  • speaker
    Who are--. Who are the three we
  • speaker
    mentioned?
  • speaker
    Well, I was asking if, since
  • speaker
    your immediate predecessor was Jim
  • speaker
    Andrews--.
  • speaker
    Yes.
  • speaker
    If there was any word that he
  • speaker
    offered, but then the executive
  • speaker
    directors of the Mission Agency: Jim
  • speaker
    Brown, John Dietrich, Linda
  • speaker
    Valentine.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    Well, yeah, Jim--.
  • speaker
    Jim Andrews is--when I
  • speaker
    asked him what he thought I should
  • speaker
    do for the next term, and he
  • speaker
    told me to go, basically.
  • speaker
    "You should go graciously out
  • speaker
    and enjoy some of your
  • speaker
    life before you run out." So
  • speaker
    he was--.
  • speaker
    Jim was--. Jim was very supportive.
  • speaker
    Jim was deeply
  • speaker
    committed to justice, to ecumenism,
  • speaker
    and the like.
  • speaker
    But he knew and
  • speaker
    the Assembly, I think, knew that
  • speaker
    it was probably time for a change.
  • speaker
    And I feel that's the
  • speaker
    same situation I'm in now.
  • speaker
    And I think we don't
  • speaker
    want to just have people who are
  • speaker
    very short terms, but we
  • speaker
    want to be a people that can give
  • speaker
    more or less a decade to these
  • speaker
    ministries. And I
  • speaker
    leave, you know, in a sense missing
  • speaker
    it but thinking that this is the
  • speaker
    right thing.
  • speaker
    What were some of the considerations
  • speaker
    or factors that led
  • speaker
    to you deciding in
  • speaker
    '08
  • speaker
    that you would not stand for a
  • speaker
    fourth term?
  • speaker
    Well, I helped write the
  • speaker
    mission design that
  • speaker
    proposed having just that
  • speaker
    kind of recommendation in the--in
  • speaker
    the Standing Rules of the General
  • speaker
    Assembly.
  • speaker
    So, I mean, I was on the line with
  • speaker
    that issue to start with.
  • speaker
    But secondly, I do think the
  • speaker
    church is strengthened
  • speaker
    by diversity.
  • speaker
    And the diversity doesn't have to be
  • speaker
    conflict.
  • speaker
    But if it takes a few years
  • speaker
    to really get in to where
  • speaker
    your system is working with gearing
  • speaker
    with the church's system.
  • speaker
    But my idea [is] if you can't
  • speaker
    make some major contributions
  • speaker
    by the ten, twelve,
  • speaker
    or fifteen years, you
  • speaker
    probably have been there too long.
  • speaker
    So what do you see is as sort of the
  • speaker
    unfinished business?
  • speaker
    So when you finish your
  • speaker
    term in '08, you were made
  • speaker
    the Stated Clerk Emeritus.
  • speaker
    What was, back then, sort of the
  • speaker
    unfinished business if you had--if
  • speaker
    you had continued for a fourth term
  • speaker
    and
  • speaker
    worked for this
  • speaker
    or that?
  • speaker
    What was sort of the unfinished
  • speaker
    business after '08?
  • speaker
    I don't know that I've prioritized
  • speaker
    it--probably hadn't--but the one thing I've been
  • speaker
    think about recently has
  • speaker
    been, you know, we have--we've
  • speaker
    moved--spent energy moving into
  • speaker
    congregational life, into
  • speaker
    presbytery and synod
  • speaker
    development, into ecumenism
  • speaker
    within the Christian commitment and
  • speaker
    what it means--the kind of thing we
  • speaker
    talked about with the Vatican.
  • speaker
    But what we've not done very
  • speaker
    adequately is try to make sense
  • speaker
    out of what all this means in an
  • speaker
    interfaith world and
  • speaker
    in a world that really
  • speaker
    is
  • speaker
    a lot different than we've usually
  • speaker
    done in the ecumenical movement.
  • speaker
    And it's very complicated
  • speaker
    theologically because we don't
  • speaker
    in any sense sacrifice our Christian
  • speaker
    commitment.
  • speaker
    But on the other hand,
  • speaker
    we do realize that this
  • speaker
    is a multi-faith world and that
  • speaker
    God intends there to be love
  • speaker
    and justice between faith
  • speaker
    communities.
  • speaker
    And so I think some real work
  • speaker
    about that--about that would
  • speaker
    probably be very good.
  • speaker
    Yea, indeed. Do you recall of any
  • speaker
    overtures that you made during
  • speaker
    your time as Stated Clerk in
  • speaker
    that respect--interreligious,
  • speaker
    inter-interfaith engagements?
  • speaker
    Is there anything that pops up from
  • speaker
    your memory on that?
  • speaker
    Well, in one sense, the Belhar
  • speaker
    Confession also recognizes
  • speaker
    that.
  • speaker
    The--.I know there [are] constant
  • speaker
    kind of request and demand from
  • speaker
    presbyteries and synods.
  • speaker
    And I think
  • speaker
    we--.
  • speaker
    You know, if you look at
  • speaker
    what--where--what
  • speaker
    we're being requested to do
  • speaker
    is there's a large interest
  • speaker
    out there and that Presbyterians
  • speaker
    are not quite sure how to deal with
  • speaker
    this. And I think it's a--it
  • speaker
    needs to be the focus.
  • speaker
    Mm-hm. Now when--.
  • speaker
    As Stated Clerk, which is
  • speaker
    [a] very outward facing, public
  • speaker
    face of the denomination, you
  • speaker
    were involved very intensively and
  • speaker
    extensively with
  • speaker
    public witness: our
  • speaker
    presence at the--in
  • speaker
    Washington, D.C., at the United
  • speaker
    Nations, working
  • speaker
    with our various offices there.
  • speaker
    Are there any events or
  • speaker
    times that you recall as Stated
  • speaker
    Clerk where you had to perhaps
  • speaker
    go to the White House, to
  • speaker
    Congress, to the steps of the
  • speaker
    Capitol or to the U.N.?
  • speaker
    Is there anything that you recall
  • speaker
    during those years as Stated Clerk?
  • speaker
    Well, I've done both of those
  • speaker
    things. I been to the White House,
  • speaker
    but also been to the--. I
  • speaker
    remember--. It was interesting.
  • speaker
    We--. One of the things that's been
  • speaker
    always--is
  • speaker
    little easy about our
  • speaker
    colleagues is that
  • speaker
    the U.S. government has supported
  • speaker
    and pushed out the school--what do
  • speaker
    you call it?--the
  • speaker
    Latin American school for training
  • speaker
    of war--of people for war.
  • speaker
    And that has continue to be in--in
  • speaker
    support, and
  • speaker
    that's
  • speaker
    a movement that ought to not be
  • speaker
    sanctioned.
  • speaker
    And I remember a day in Washington.
  • speaker
    We were there for the Ecumenical
  • speaker
    Advocacy Days.
  • speaker
    We spent from morning with the
  • speaker
    President
  • speaker
    and other--and other people that are
  • speaker
    in leadership, and then [we] spent
  • speaker
    the afternoon with
  • speaker
    farm workers and
  • speaker
    people that are way away
  • speaker
    from the powerful
  • speaker
    interest worlds.
  • speaker
    And I think that's something that
  • speaker
    can be done, that the church can be
  • speaker
    both an active presence
  • speaker
    in terms of--of programs[?],
  • speaker
    in terms of the poor and
  • speaker
    the outcast and, at the same time,
  • speaker
    can be a voice that
  • speaker
    lift up the call
  • speaker
    to justice at the highest levels.
  • speaker
    That's right.
  • speaker
    That's right.
  • speaker
    I recall that in your
  • speaker
    time as Stated Clerk, you were--you
  • speaker
    were a leader
  • speaker
    in the calling for better
  • speaker
    working conditions and higher wages
  • speaker
    for the Immokalee
  • speaker
    workers who were working--who
  • speaker
    are contracted by Yum!
  • speaker
    Brands.
  • speaker
    Yes.
  • speaker
    Right?
  • speaker
    Yeah. Well, and that was--that was
  • speaker
    an occasion of working with those
  • speaker
    who are, some of them, on the lower
  • speaker
    end of society.
  • speaker
    But I joined the people and said I
  • speaker
    would be glad to be joining in.
  • speaker
    Next thing I knew, they were putting
  • speaker
    a chicken costume on me,
  • speaker
    and I still remember running around
  • speaker
    in the chicken costume and
  • speaker
    after having the [Neal laughs]
  • speaker
    morning with powerful and
  • speaker
    the like. And I got--.
  • speaker
    I got a little flack for that one,
  • speaker
    but people remember that,
  • speaker
    you know, that there was a place for
  • speaker
    the chicken at this--at the table
  • speaker
    too.
  • speaker
    [Laughs] Now you were--. You
  • speaker
    then retired from
  • speaker
    being Stated Clerk--Stated Clerk of
  • speaker
    the General Assembly, and then
  • speaker
    Louisville Presbyterian Theological
  • speaker
    Seminary invited
  • speaker
    you to join their faculty.
  • speaker
    What was that like to move
  • speaker
    from the
  • speaker
    ecclesiastical leadership that,
  • speaker
    you know, that you spent most of
  • speaker
    your professional and adult life in
  • speaker
    and then to move to academia?
  • speaker
    What was that shift like?
  • speaker
    Well, it was better than I thought.
  • speaker
    I--. And I don't mean that--. It was good. That's a
  • speaker
    better way to say it.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    I mean, I felt like, in some ways, I
  • speaker
    had not kept up my scholarship and
  • speaker
    the things of that sort.
  • speaker
    They're always at the core of what
  • speaker
    we need to be about.
  • speaker
    But I had a group of
  • speaker
    colleagues--some of would have
  • speaker
    different views than mine on
  • speaker
    things--but basically
  • speaker
    a
  • speaker
    group of colleagues came together
  • speaker
    at the seminary to train
  • speaker
    a whole new generation of
  • speaker
    leaders in the church.
  • speaker
    And I'm glad I got that chance.
  • speaker
    I never probably would have been the
  • speaker
    chief academic officer
  • speaker
    for any institution, but I'm glad
  • speaker
    I could make a little bit of a
  • speaker
    contribution to what we call
  • speaker
    practical theology and
  • speaker
    how that's lived out in the
  • speaker
    congregation, the synod, the
  • speaker
    presbytery time in life[?].
  • speaker
    Wonderful.
  • speaker
    Well, maybe in a--in a subsequent
  • speaker
    conversation we'll delve a little
  • speaker
    bit more, in your years--.
  • speaker
    You're probably asking those
  • speaker
    questions too.
  • speaker
    Yeah. No, I'll--.
  • speaker
    Yeah, I will definitely ask you
  • speaker
    in another conversation
  • speaker
    of ours about your--your
  • speaker
    years at Louisville Seminary.
  • speaker
    On our--.
  • speaker
    We have a little less than five
  • speaker
    minutes or so in this--in this
  • speaker
    conversation.
  • speaker
    During your tenure as
  • speaker
    Stated Clerk, those twelve years,
  • speaker
    you served with several
  • speaker
    moderators of the General Assembly,
  • speaker
    some beloved friends,
  • speaker
    and I'm going to name them.
  • speaker
    I'm just going to say a name, say
  • speaker
    the name of one--of the moderators,
  • speaker
    and then just tell me the first
  • speaker
    thing that comes to mind when you
  • speaker
    think about this moderator.
  • speaker
    So 1998,
  • speaker
    when you were elected--or
  • speaker
    1996 that is.
  • speaker
    Sorry. John Buchanan.
  • speaker
    Good friend.
  • speaker
    Okay.
  • speaker
    1997.
  • speaker
    Pat Brown.
  • speaker
    Office next to mine.
  • speaker
    [Laughs] 1998. Doug Oldenburg.
  • speaker
    Wonderful friend.
  • speaker
    1999.
  • speaker
    Freda Gardner.
  • speaker
    Oh, she's a--.
  • speaker
    [I] wish she was elected Stated Clerk,
  • speaker
    I'll give you that.
  • speaker
    At the time, at the Assembly in Fort
  • speaker
    Worth, and I spent my life in Fort Worth. She's
  • speaker
    the best Texan I know.
  • speaker
    [Laughs] 2000. Syngman Rhee.
  • speaker
    That's--.
  • speaker
    He is one of the dear friends in my
  • speaker
    life.
  • speaker
    Yes. 2001.
  • speaker
    Jack Rogers.
  • speaker
    Jack was my portal to the--to
  • speaker
    the polity side of this
  • speaker
    job--to, yeah--to
  • speaker
    both its polity but also its
  • speaker
    confessions. And he really
  • speaker
    introduced and trained me in those.
  • speaker
    2002.
  • speaker
    Fahed Abu-Akel.
  • speaker
    An excellent spokesperson of the
  • speaker
    Palestinian cause.
  • speaker
    2003.
  • speaker
    Susan Andrews.
  • speaker
    Strong, common witness.
  • speaker
    2004--.
  • speaker
    [Unclear]. She was interesting.
  • speaker
    And her congregation was sharing
  • speaker
    with--their building with the Jewish
  • speaker
    community. And I've always thought
  • speaker
    that's interesting.
  • speaker
    That's right. At Bradley Hills in
  • speaker
    Maryland.
  • speaker
    2004.
  • speaker
    Rick Ufford-Chase.
  • speaker
    Oh, he shook up every [laughs] every
  • speaker
    image
  • speaker
    of--of
  • speaker
    how to be a moderator.
  • speaker
    And I remember--.
  • speaker
    I remember trying to get him to a
  • speaker
    dinner with Korean delegates.
  • speaker
    And if--.
  • speaker
    He came down in shorts and a tee
  • speaker
    shirt to this fancy meeting, and
  • speaker
    I said, "We're not going to that."
  • speaker
    He said, "Yes, we are." And
  • speaker
    I said, "Well, I have the key,
  • speaker
    and you don't." So we didn't.
  • speaker
    We
  • speaker
    made that transition, but no
  • speaker
    Rick was--. Rick raised the right
  • speaker
    kind of questions about how
  • speaker
    to really engage in--in
  • speaker
    deeply in cross-cultural change.
  • speaker
    Indeed. 2006.
  • speaker
    Joan Gray.
  • speaker
    Joan is another gifted polity
  • speaker
    expert, and that's
  • speaker
    a good thing that--the number of
  • speaker
    polity people show up in these
  • speaker
    lists.
  • speaker
    Indeed. And then you're--the General
  • speaker
    Assembly that you retired as
  • speaker
    Stated Clerk.
  • speaker
    2008.
  • speaker
    Bruce Reyes-Chow.
  • speaker
    He convinced me that computers
  • speaker
    were here to stay, and that
  • speaker
    I better get with the program
  • speaker
    [laughs].
  • speaker
    [Laughs] Wonderful. And he continues to
  • speaker
    be our social media
  • speaker
    guru and [unclear]
  • speaker
    the digital age.
  • speaker
    Well, Cliff, this--this
  • speaker
    ends this third conversation.
  • speaker
    Thank you so much.
  • speaker
    This is such a fun,
  • speaker
    fun conversation.
  • speaker
    I'm going to end the--end the
  • speaker
    recording at this point.
  • speaker
    Thank you.
Details
Title

Cliff Kirkpatrick oral history, 2023.

Description

Oral history of Stated Clerk Emeritus Cliff Kirkpatrick interviewed by Rev. Dr. Neal Presa and recorded via Zoom by Randy Hobson of OGA Communications on September 7, 2023. The Rev. Dr. Clifton Kirkpatrick is an ordained minister who served for fifteen years as the Director of the Worldwide Ministries Division before becoming Stated Clerk. He served in this capacity from 1996-2008 and, at the conclusion of his service, was elected by the General Assembly as Stated Clerk Emeritus. His other leadership roles included Co-moderator of the General Assembly Special Committee on the Belhar Confession and member of the Board of Directors of the Covenant Network of Presbyterians. Kirkpatrick attended Davidson College (BA), Yale University (MDiv), and McCormick Theological Seminary (DMin).

Creator

Kirkpatrick, Clifton, 1945- (interviewee)
Presa, Neal D. (interviewer)
Hobson, Randy. (recording engineer)

Date

2023
September 7, 2023

Type of resource

moving image

Genre

interviews
oral histories

Form

born digital
video recordings

Extent

1.03 MB (1 MP4 file)

Language

English

Subject names

Kirkpatrick, Clifton, 1945-
Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). General Assembly. Office of the Stated Clerk.
Covenant Network of Presbyterians.

Topics

Presbyterian Church--Church officers.
Presbyterian Church--Clergy.
Church leadership--Presbyterian Church.

Geographic subjects

North and Central America--United States

Rights status

IN COPYRIGHT - NON-COMMERCIAL USE PERMITTED; http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/

Physical location

ARCHIVES 23-0805; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA

Related item

Cliff Kirkpatrick oral history, 2023.--https://prestohost68.inmagic.com/Presto/content/Detail.aspx?ctID=Y2RiNWN...

Identifier (local)

CliffKirkpatrick_20230807

PID (Persistent Identifier)

islandora:346654

Bookmark

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