Cliff Kirkpatrick oral history, 2023.

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speaker
Good.
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All right.
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Well, Cliff, good morning.
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And we're--.
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Good morning.
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Good morning. And this
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is the second conversation
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with Reverend Doctor Clifton
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Kirkpatrick, Stated Clerk Emeritus
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of the General Assembly of the
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Presbyterian Church (U.S.A).
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And today is Tuesday the 25th
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of July, 2023.
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Cliff,
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let's begin this--. [Chime] Oh excuse me.
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Let's begin this conversation
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with--.
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Excuse me for that.
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Let's begin this
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conversation, this second
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conversation, in
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continuing with our--with our
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previous conversation on the 1982
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Ottawa General Council of
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the World Alliance of Reformed
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Churches, where
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you had accompanied,
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then Stated Clerk, Jim Andrews
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at that pivotal General
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Council of the Alliance.
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Allan Boesak being elected president
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and the Alliance taking
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that decisive stand
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in declaring apartheid
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in South Africa as sin.
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Can you tell us a little bit more
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about your
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reflections and experiences from
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what you can recall from that
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General Council in Ottawa?
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Well, it was hugely,
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hugely controversial.
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But on the other hand, it was felt
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urgently that there was a need for
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a word from the reformed tradition
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to the struggle for justice
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based on race and economics and
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human well-being.
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And Allan
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Boesak--you mentioned him--had been
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incredibly articulate
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to lift up that cause.
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And what was particularly
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significant about this is that it
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drawed--. A lot of folks were
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dealing with racism, with gender
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justice, with those things, but they
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weren't connecting that, quite
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as much as I think is called for,
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to the confessional heritage of the
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church.
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And we say that in our
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hierarchy, if you would, of
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authorities, that
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the role of confessions is very
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important.
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And people had argued in
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some ways that we were
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ignoring the confessions in order to
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focus on a popular issue of
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the day.
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Well, in reality is the focus on
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the confessions drive
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us to the contemporary issue of the
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day, particularly in terms
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of racism, particularly
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in terms of injustice,
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particularly in terms of doing all
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of this in the context of
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the unity of the church and its work
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together.
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So that had a lot of
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work in it. Allan Boesak
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was--for a few years continued
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in that role.
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Following that--or maybe even
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before.
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I'm trying to think of the
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chronology, but--.
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Jane Dempsey Douglass, who is
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a professor out in California
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and [a] reformed
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visionary of the first order, you
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know, she had a huge role in that.
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And then I was asked
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to take a role
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as the president of the World
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Alliance, and
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that focus
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was on understanding
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the confessions as
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a--as a bedrock principle,
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and one that called us to
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action and to serious action.
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Out of all that came both
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the commitment to reaffirm the
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Belhar Confession,
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but also work on a new confession
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that's still somewhat in progress
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called the Accra
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Confession. The--. And Belhar,
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obviously, focused on issues of
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race.
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The--. The
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focus on the Accra Confession
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focused on economics and economic
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justice, in a sense that you got
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to have both in a [unclear] human
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community.
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Absolutely.
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Well, since we were on the subject
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of WARC, even though
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we're sort of lingering in
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the eighties and you mentioned
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some luminaries. Of course, the
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Doctor Professor Jane Dempsey
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Douglass, professor
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emerita at Princeton Seminary, the
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first woman to be elected
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president of the World Alliance of
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Reformed Churches.
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What was that like in that General
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Council that elected
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Professor Douglass in
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the Alliance's historic commitment
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to gender justice and now to elect
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the first woman to serve as
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president of the World Alliance?
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Well, it was obviously
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prophetic, but imminently
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logical that if you're working
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on an inclusive gospel,
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obviously, the dynamics of women
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in the ministry that
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are being not allowed
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full communion is
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something that needed to be
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addressed. And so that was there.
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And certainly having somebody like
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Jane Dempsey Douglass. No
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one could question that there--this
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was a compendium[?]
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of the best of the reformed
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tradition.
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely. And she served so well
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and ably in that--in
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that position. In
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the--. In the post-Ottawa
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General Council when
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the Alliance took the position
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to declare apartheid a sin,
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it also suspended the
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membership of one of the Dutch
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Reformed churches.
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Right.
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How was that? How was that
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done--that atmosphere of
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discussions with the Dutch
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Reformed Church and then its
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suspension and then many, many years
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later brought back into the--into,
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then, the World Communion of
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Reformed Churches?
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What was that sort of reaction to
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taking that serious action to
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suspend one of the Dutch Reformed
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churches who were supporting
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apartheid?
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Well, I--I
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really was deeply involved in both
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the leaving and the return of the
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Dutch Reformed Church.
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And so I guess I can speak
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some to that.
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The leaving feature is
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in a place where confessions
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really matter, and they
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have an authority. Mining
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those confessions to
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find the gospel truth
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is something that was very
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important.
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This was hugely debated.
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The South African churches
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indicated they would not and could
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not support that.
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The balanced--the
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larger--part of the communion,
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indicated
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that it's hard to understand
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the gospel--the inclusive
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gospel--if you can't
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invite certain people because of
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race to be part of it.
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So it was--. It was tense.
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It was a close vote, but
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as it came through, I think
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some real sense that
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the right thing had been done.
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And I think
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history has proved that
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worldwide, not just as--not just as
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a North American issue, but
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worldwide, the issues
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of racism is really at the heart
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of the gospel message.
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Yes.
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And then you mentioned the return
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of that--of that Dutch
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Reformed Church.
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You were then serving at that time,
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then around
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2010, 2014,
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during that period, you were
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on the Executive Committee of the
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World Communion Reformed Churches.
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I think Grady Parsons was now our
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Stated Clerk at that point,
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and--Stated Clerk of the
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General Assembly--and that Dutch
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Reformed Church that had been
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suspended in the early eighties
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was then brought back into now then
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the World Communion of Reformed
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Churches.
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What was that discussion like?
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Well, the criteria that we set up
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when we suspended
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the Dutch Reformed Church was
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that the criteria involve
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an open invitation to all people
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to join in receiving
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the--the
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communion of the church and to
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repudiate actions that had
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been taken in support
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of apartheid.
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And when those actions were taken to
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make those changes, it felt
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to me and to the majority in
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the Alliance that having--.
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We may not have solved every
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problem, but having
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dealt with those two big issues,
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we were really
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conscience-driven to invite the
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Dutch Reformed Church to return but
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with a clear understanding that it's
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to return to
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the fellowship and the communion.
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That's where the term communion
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gets important. That a sense of
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communion exist between the
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churches.
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Right. Absolutely.
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Well, we're
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glad. We're glad that--that
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our siblings in that Dutch Reformed
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Church were illuminated by the work
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of the spirit.
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They confessed their both complicity
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and their sin in supporting
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apartheid, and [we're] grateful for
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repentance in that.
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And they're back in the--in the
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reformed fold, as it were.
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You had mentioned, as well,
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a major confession.
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Well, it was controversial at
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the time, as I understand it, in
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Accra,
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whether to call it a confession.
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But the Accra Confession, and you
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were Stated Clerk at that
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time then in 2004
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General Council of the World
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Alliance of Reformed Churches in
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Accra, Ghana.
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Can you tell us about
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that whole
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atmosphere and experience
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of adopting
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the Accra Confession and
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how it is a
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different kind of a confession?
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Like what made it different and--and
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what was sort of the controversy
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surrounding that confession?
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Well,
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[unclear] issues around it. Obviously,
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on the one side, issues of race
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and class [unclear].
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But other--. The deeper issue of
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confession is
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that we
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were being called to honor our
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confessions and not to--not
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to let them sit on the sideline
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as in [the] past and simply be
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policy statements and things like
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that because important as they are.
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And so that focus
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on confession, certainly
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in the reformed community, that[?]
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power and energy when you connect
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the notion of confession
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with the notion of justice.
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You put it together, and you get
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that.
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We're not fully at the same place
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right now yet with the
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Accra Confession. I think we've
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taken action encouraging churches to
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adopt it.
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Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) has
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adopted the Accra Confession
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and others, but we are still
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in the process of receiving and
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acting upon the Accra
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Confession in the broader reformed
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family.
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Well, and that--.
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And that particular confession in
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calling for covenanting
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for justice in the economy and the
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earth.
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There was some--. There was some
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resistance upon our friends
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in the Global North.
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You know, what was that meaning?
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And talking about empire.
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Critiquing the--the
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broad tentacles of empire
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in every part of life
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and the adverse consequences
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of that.
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What was that tense
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moments at that General Council?
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How did you navigate that?
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Well, I navigated, hopefully, well
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by using the basic principles I
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teach in my polity course. And
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focus to really
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deal with each other in honesty and
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integrity, deal with each other in a
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polity that both enables certain
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things to get done but also
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people to be cared for in the
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process.
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And so the--the
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polity proved us well.
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We dealt it in committees. We dealt
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it in--. One
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of the things that the polity does
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for us is to ensure that everybody
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gets a table--a seat at the table
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and a place to
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work from and to.
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And so that
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was really a--. I said this to Stevens[?], this
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is--. If you want to see that, go
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try and find the videos
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and see how polity is
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done even in a very large
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group. Obviously, the General
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Assembly is up for a
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study in that same thing,
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but it was--it
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paired the best in the Presbyterian
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polity as well as Presbyterian
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theology.
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Well, you must have navigated
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that General Council so well,
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because that same General Council in
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2004 in Accra, Ghana,
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elected you as president of the
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World Alliance of Reformed Churches.
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And we debated that in some ways.
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I mean, I really was very
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hesitant about that.
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I thought we needed someone from
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the Global South--the
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people from the Global South.
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I said, "Now
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if there was ever a time that we
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need the Global North to speak up on
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our behalf, it's now." Because--so
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that the--the voice
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of the world church can be heard
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and not simply a small portion
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of it--a big portion but--of
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it in the--in
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the group that is known for being
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for economic
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and ecological justice.
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So any rate, I
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was--remember coming to see me in
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the evening and having a long, long
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chat. Said clearly, I mean,
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it has to be a very unanimous
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kind of action, and it
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pretty much was.
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And--.
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But it was--it
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was not what I expected.
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I--. An interesting sideline to
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that is that when
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I got there, I was
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already nervous and got in the
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shower at the
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University of Ghana that--where we
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were meeting--and a snake
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came up under the shower stall and
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bit me in the toe of the foot.
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So I was sort of like
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Moses and the
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burning bush, but it was a-- [Neal
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chuckles]. It was an interesting
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thing to be hopping around on
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one--one cane.
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It wasn't, fortunately, a seriously
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threatening--life threatening thing,
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but I figured, you know,
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what else is there [laughs]?
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[Laughs] There you go.
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There you go. You were--. A
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clear sign that you were--you
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were in it, and you were in it for
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the long haul, whatever assignment
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is needed.
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And so tell us about how
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then you navigated--. We're--.
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We're going out of the chronology,
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which is okay. We're going to stay,
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then, with the--with your work with
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the World Alliance, and we'll talk
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soon about the World Communion of
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Reformed Churches. But tell us about
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those years when you served as
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president of the World Alliance of
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Reformed Churches simultaneous
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with being Stated Clerk of the
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General Assembly. What
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was that like? I mean, navigating
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both roles that took you
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traveling hundreds of
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thousands of miles globally and
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around the country.
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How did you sort of
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navigate both roles?
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Well, I told my colleagues
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that this was unusual, and
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that I would have to have a real,
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real word from
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on high or from
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colleagues that this is an important
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thing to do.
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And I guess I was glad that the
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community, who with
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serious prayer and concern,
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that this was maybe a moment
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that--unrelated
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to other things--that called
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for somebody like me
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to step up to the plate
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and ask others from the Global North
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and the Global South to join
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together to make a difference
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in this arena.
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What was your favorite part about
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serving as president of the World
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Alliance of Reformed Churches?
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The people I got to know.
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And
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we talked yesterday a little bit
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about the
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kind of people in the PC(USA) that
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kind of spoke to you and to me
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and made a difference in our life.
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Well that could be said
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ten times over.
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I mean, I--.
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Probably the person
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I met [to] make the best and
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strongest bonds with was
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Setri Nyomi who was the general
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secretary in the World
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Communion.
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Setri is a Ghanaian.
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Setri as the one that, much more
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than any other elected person, like
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myself, who
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laid out the vision, who supported
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the cause, who
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encouraged people to
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stand up for the cause of
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righteousness and justice.
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So--. And there are a lot of other
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people like that: the colleagues in
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South Africa and all that
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represented[?], colleagues in
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Latin America where
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they--where
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similar kind of
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situation of oppression and need
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a living out.
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And so there was a global sense
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that the time had come, and
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that they would be found
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already[?] with Belhar.
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That this is something
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that is for Belhar, but it's
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also for the broader reformed plan.
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Absolutely.
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Setri. Setri Nyomi. Our
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beloved friend, prophetic
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leader, great leader in the
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ecumenical movement, and there
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in Ghana where he teaches and
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pastors [and] continues to do so.
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You and Setri
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were--.
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So you were president, he was
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general secretary, and both
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of you worked
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so well in navigating
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the critical discussions
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of what then became the World
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Communion of Reformed Churches.
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Can you tell us a little bit about
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the back story of
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conversations with the Re-- of the,
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then, Reformed Ecumenical
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Council--REC--and
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the World Alliance? The backstory
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of that? How did that come about?
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Well, let's just go first to the
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World Communion and
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move on to that.
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The--. Well,
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the--the work with Setri
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was just such a blessing. We--. One
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of us is a morning person, the
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other a night person, so every day
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we had at 5:00 Eastern Time,
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we had a conference call, the two of
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us. Some days we had
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very little, but we touched base
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every day.
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And we--we
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tried to be faithful.
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We had time to pray.
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It was the richest fellowship
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I've been a part of [in] most my
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life. And
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so that's one part now
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that's there.
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The other piece, when you do
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something like this, you discover
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that, you know, the World Alliance
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and World Communion are not the sum
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total of this.
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Recently, some years back,
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somebody did a study of all the
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reformed denominations in North
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America. There were eighty-three.
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I mean, we have divided and split up
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in all kind of ways that are really
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beyond what I think God intends.
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And one of those ways that--.
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In many ways, if you go
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all the way back, the World
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Communion and World Alliance
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comes out of
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the--the Scottish tradition
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and the--the
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tradition, which is also reformed
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coming out of the Netherlands.
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And the whole Dutch reformed
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movement is the other [unclear] side
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of that.
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And so we committed ourselves in the
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World Communion and Setri did
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as well to--to
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focus on the--on
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these other kind of divisions
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that were eager for a
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change. And so particularly
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the Reformed Ecumenical
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Council, which was a group of--some
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might see it as a little more
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conservative--but equally committed
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to the reformed tradition and the
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reformed unity.
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And they, too, became
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interested in being part of this
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reformed fellowship.
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And that's where we changed the
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name. We're no longer an
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alliance with that.
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We're not an alliance structurally
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either, but we would no longer an
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alliance, but we are a communion.
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Because we recognized that we were
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in full communion.
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We heard that term about communion
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in Belhar, but that
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full communion was
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what brought us together with
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the Dutch Reformed family and
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bringing together more and
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more of the reformed community into
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a common fellowship.
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We've done pretty well with that.
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And there are certainly
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folks in Reformed Ecumenical Council
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and the World Communion
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of Churches.
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All of those feel like
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this is--that was the right thing to
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do.
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Now we have challenges,
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otherwise--challenges financially,
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challenges in
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commitment, all those things.
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But the fundamental building blocks
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that were represented by the World
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Communion of Reformed Churches and
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the Reformed Ecumenical Council have
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held up and held up strong.
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Yes. And then--.
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And that all culminated at that
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uniting General Council in Grand
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Rapids, Michigan [in] 2010
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where you finished your
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presidency--by then a
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joint presidency
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for that General Council.
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And then Jerry Pillay was
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then elected as president of the
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World Communion of Reformed
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Churches.
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I was there with you, I think, at
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that--at that General Council.
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Can you share a little bit your
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experience of bringing
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together the Reformed Ecumenical
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Council, the World Alliance
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to this world--and birthing this
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World Communion of Reformed
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Churches?
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What was that--?
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Well, it was--. It was easier to do
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that than it was to bring together
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the union out of South Africa and
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the issues of racism.
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But they both were--. Both were part
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of a common stream.
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And both
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those things that I think
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happened and were clearly the will
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of God.
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The--.
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What was the other side of the
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question?
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Oh, and then Jerry
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Pillay was then elected--.
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Oh Jerry. Yes, Jerry. Jerry Pillay, who
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was the executive director
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of the--of the United
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Presbyterian Church in Southern
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Africa.
speaker
Jerry had been on the executive
speaker
committee and a leader in all kind
speaker
of ways in the reformed movement,
speaker
and we--.
speaker
The community tried
speaker
to get at Jerry at the time
speaker
to take on that challenge.
speaker
He indicated the
speaker
time wasn't right, but within a year
speaker
they got right that Jerry is now the
speaker
general secretary of the World
speaker
Council of Churches.
speaker
And so the reformed movement is--its
speaker
tentacles are very--.
speaker
We've got to be a little bit humble
speaker
because it's tentacles are in so
speaker
many places.
speaker
But Jerry is a
speaker
great leader and
speaker
is doing a good job
speaker
with the--with the World Council of
speaker
Churches where much of
speaker
the spirit--you got to use different
speaker
language, but you got to have the
speaker
spirit of unity, of justice,
speaker
of partnership that are really
speaker
at the heart of the work we do.
speaker
Absolutely. And he's serving so
speaker
ably as our general secretary.
speaker
So
speaker
glad we're able to linger there a
speaker
little bit in the outcomes
speaker
of that pivotal world-uniting
speaker
General Council of the WCRC
speaker
that elected him as president of the
speaker
WCRC.
speaker
Let's now go back then--.
speaker
So now we'll go back again
speaker
to where we were in the eighties.
speaker
So we'll leave the WARC and WCRC
speaker
for the moment and
speaker
focus again then on the late
speaker
eighties. So we'll go back to the
speaker
late eighties and early nineties.
speaker
You were director of Worldwide
speaker
Ministries.
speaker
Yes.
speaker
And this new denomination called
speaker
PC(USA) that had
speaker
reunited in Atlanta
speaker
trying to figure out how to
speaker
live as a reunited denomination.
speaker
The northern church with its
speaker
headquarters in New York,
speaker
the southern church with its
speaker
headquarters in Atlanta, decides
speaker
then to move to
speaker
Louisville, Kentucky, of all
speaker
places.
speaker
Yes.
speaker
Can you tell us about that?
speaker
If there's any back story that you
speaker
were a part of in that or anything
speaker
that--.
speaker
How did that unfold do you know?
speaker
Well, I inherited a collection
speaker
of Louisville slugger bats,
speaker
and that's a
speaker
back story.
speaker
But there was a real intrigue
speaker
folks had around the Louisville
speaker
connection.
speaker
There was--.
speaker
Well, as most of you know, the--the
speaker
movement was--. There was a lot of
speaker
movement out there [for] anywhere
speaker
but Atlanta or New York
speaker
because there were obvious reasons
speaker
for the two of them.
speaker
But with an effort to do a new
speaker
thing, to do it together, it was
speaker
felt like it didn't have quite the
speaker
synergy that we had in the WARC
speaker
situation.
speaker
But that, you know, it would
speaker
help us to be one church
speaker
if we could find a way toward
speaker
organic unity.
speaker
And we did.
speaker
We had a
speaker
number of committees, which is
speaker
typical Presbyterian way
speaker
of doing it, and
speaker
in the process began to work
speaker
on cause after cause related
speaker
to putting a structure together.
speaker
And they had--. There was
speaker
both--there was a decision to have
speaker
a piece of what was going on to
speaker
continue through
speaker
the agencies that existed before.
speaker
So you had two mission agencies, so
speaker
it was a little messy, but it
speaker
was--it worked out.
speaker
On the other hand,
speaker
it kept everybody in the
speaker
bigger umbrella
speaker
because you had the--the
speaker
people who were active in the
speaker
leadership--they were not
speaker
the program staff--but they
speaker
were volunteer leadership
speaker
that kind of kept building the
speaker
bridges because they weren't quite
speaker
as invested in the--in
speaker
the volunteer leadership effort.
speaker
So any rate, the--all
speaker
of that goodwill and
speaker
the two sides, one
speaker
being staff driven and one being
speaker
volunteer driven, really
speaker
helped us move forward to--.
speaker
It--. We took
speaker
some time because it was--took,
speaker
what, three, four, five years
speaker
before we pulled it all together.
speaker
But it was done thoroughly and well,
speaker
and I think
speaker
it has proved okay over time.
speaker
But we clearly misjudged how much
speaker
funds we were[?], so we had to be
speaker
doing a lot of budget-cutting all
speaker
the time.
speaker
And I regret that we
speaker
got into that phase.
speaker
Yes.
speaker
You recall what the other runner up
speaker
cities were besides Louisville?
speaker
Kansas City.
speaker
Okay.
speaker
I think Kansas City was the one that
speaker
the committee recommended
speaker
that we go to.
speaker
And I know I got
speaker
a [unclear], along with other directors,
speaker
had a wonderful weekend in Kansas
speaker
City. I mean, we saw the town,
speaker
but they were--that committee--was
speaker
[unclear] how can they change it. As
speaker
in Presbyterian polity, you can
speaker
change it up until the time it's
speaker
done. So any
speaker
rate,
speaker
that Kansas
speaker
City was clearly
speaker
the expected outcome.
speaker
But the other side of that is
speaker
people--nobody was really
speaker
just eager to
speaker
jump into the parade.
speaker
And so there
speaker
became a movement of looking for
speaker
another site.
speaker
And partly
speaker
the other side of that is there was
speaker
a strong movement here in
speaker
Mid-Kentucky Presbytery
speaker
where you had
speaker
people really deeply wanting to
speaker
work in this particular area.
speaker
John Mulder and people at the
speaker
Louisville Seminary had a lot
speaker
to do with encouraging people to
speaker
stay and find a grounding
speaker
in a reformed seminary.
speaker
And well,
speaker
any rate, that's kind of
speaker
how we got to that place.
speaker
Did you mention Louisville Seminary.
speaker
Were you retired?
speaker
You had two retirements.
speaker
You retired as Stated Clerk, made
speaker
Stated Clerk Emeritus, and then you
speaker
went to Louisville Seminary
speaker
and then retired from that
speaker
position, right, as a professor?
speaker
I had four retirements,
speaker
and we're not going to have any more
speaker
[Neal laughs]. But yeah.
speaker
Yeah. You taught ecumenical studies
speaker
and world Christianity at
speaker
Louisville, and we'll talk about
speaker
that piece in a
speaker
subsequent conv--in a successive
speaker
conversation, but--.
speaker
In terms of seminaries, I wanted to
speaker
ask you briefly
speaker
about that.
speaker
There were seminaries in a northern
speaker
church and seminaries in the
speaker
southern church.
speaker
Yes.
speaker
So in this post reunion period,
speaker
late eighties,
speaker
what was that like in terms of
speaker
bringing all of those seminaries
speaker
into one umbrella?
speaker
Well, that took some doing.
speaker
I know I spent every year with the
speaker
meeting of the seminary president
speaker
and trying to just be
speaker
sure we nurture those relationships.
speaker
We had an incredible group of
speaker
seminary presidents at that period
speaker
of history, and we wouldn't have
speaker
done it without them. It was the
speaker
seminary presidents
speaker
that often ended up being a
speaker
moderator to the Assembly.
speaker
It was a
speaker
group of people that
speaker
clearly wanted this to succeed,
speaker
and they pretty well did so.
speaker
I remember--I
speaker
remember some
speaker
of the work being done.
speaker
We had, for example, the--they
speaker
had a suggestion that came that
speaker
you needed to write to the Stated
speaker
Clerk.
speaker
You needed to write a book about
speaker
what unites Presbyterians.
speaker
[cell phone rings] Well, I said I don't--.
speaker
So
speaker
[unclear] this is being recorded.
speaker
I think someone's calling you.
speaker
Should have closed that out.
speaker
That's right. Maybe the phone voice
speaker
mail will go on.
speaker
There you go.
speaker
Okay. I'm sorry.
speaker
No worries. Yeah.
speaker
So the seminaries--. You were
speaker
talking about the seminary presidents
speaker
after reunion.
speaker
They wanted this to happen for--to
speaker
really work, to make it happen,
speaker
to bring the seminaries of the
speaker
northern church, the southern church
speaker
all together.
speaker
And some of them, like Louisville,
speaker
were related to both.
speaker
Mm-hmm.
speaker
And so you already had
speaker
a fertile field there.
speaker
And they
speaker
have--.
speaker
Any rate, there was, I think on the
speaker
whole, a good sense
speaker
about that.
speaker
The other thing is we're not--we
speaker
weren't that different.
speaker
I mean, basically, we had--we
speaker
had a little different format
speaker
of what you do, but basically
speaker
we had the same
speaker
Book of Confessions, the same
speaker
polity, the same,
speaker
as I told--said yesterday, it's the
speaker
same world mission strategy.
speaker
And so we had--we
speaker
were set to go with the
speaker
theological education in support of
speaker
reunion.
speaker
Yes.
speaker
You recall any
speaker
key figures in those discussions,
speaker
in the Council of
speaker
Seminary Presidents or the--those
speaker
meetings with seminary presidents,
speaker
theological education leaders?
speaker
Who are some of the key figures in
speaker
those--in those discussions?
speaker
Well, the--.
speaker
John--John Mulder I mentioned
speaker
and had a key role
speaker
in that.
speaker
We had, you
speaker
know, some variety of people.
speaker
Jim Costen we talked about
speaker
yesterday.
speaker
His role was very important
speaker
in the coming together of reunion
speaker
and overcoming the racial barriers
speaker
that had divided us.
speaker
So those would be three that I would
speaker
lift up.
speaker
Yeah.
speaker
Okay.
speaker
Well very good.
speaker
Well, Cliff, we have about fifteen
speaker
more minutes--fifteen more minutes
speaker
in this--in this second
speaker
conversation.
speaker
And I wanted us now to focus,
speaker
as you have been a leader so
speaker
much in addressing
speaker
injustice in church and society, and
speaker
one area that the
speaker
PC(USA)
speaker
and its predecessor churches
speaker
struggled with for a long while
speaker
is inclusion of our
speaker
gay, lesbian,
speaker
bisexual, transgender siblings.
speaker
And from
speaker
the early seventies all
speaker
the way to--into well
speaker
into the 21st century.
speaker
And you were a staff leader
speaker
in---in
speaker
those debates then and then Stated
speaker
Clerk.
speaker
So you were in the director
speaker
of World Mission, so you were in
speaker
the--in the staff leadership and
speaker
then Stated Clerk afterwards.
speaker
Tell us about that.
speaker
Your perspective
speaker
and insights from
speaker
that evolution of
speaker
seeing the
speaker
Presbyterian Church, its predecessor
speaker
churches, PC(USA),
speaker
20th century into the 21st
speaker
century, the debates around
speaker
the full inclusion of our LGBTQIA
speaker
siblings
speaker
around ordination standards.
speaker
Okay.
speaker
Well, let me step one step back
speaker
with that.
speaker
One of the things I think I
speaker
mentioned yesterday was the fact
speaker
that part of what the unique
speaker
dynamic of Presbyterianism in this
speaker
country is. It's a story
speaker
of division, union,
speaker
reunion, division,
speaker
reunion.
speaker
And if you go back to
speaker
slavery, the Civil War,
speaker
the--the modernist-fundamentalist
speaker
controversy, the
speaker
movements in--in
speaker
other times in our history,
speaker
that focus--the
speaker
issues have been different.
speaker
The women's ordination issue was
speaker
another occasion where that took
speaker
place.
speaker
All of those things were part
speaker
of a church struggling
speaker
to find a way toward being faithful
speaker
to the tradition, but at
speaker
the same time, grounded
speaker
in its basic commitment to
speaker
justice, to unity, to
speaker
all those things that make for a
speaker
faithful new[?].
speaker
And the good news was that
speaker
we ended up with things like Belhar
speaker
Confession and with
speaker
the--our own Book of Confessions.
speaker
We had--. We were--.
speaker
We were well grounded in [unclear].
speaker
We weren't just dealing with
speaker
individual positions, but
speaker
we were dealing with something more
speaker
deeper.
speaker
Now, the harder issue is this is
speaker
so close to people's sense
speaker
of identity and self.
speaker
I think we did the right thing as a
speaker
church, but I know
speaker
that we still have wounds that are
speaker
left of that.
speaker
And people who have left the church
speaker
and who will need to find
speaker
their way back.
speaker
I hope--. I think that we have a
speaker
history of people finding their
speaker
way back, and I hope we will do that
speaker
now. But I also think it
speaker
won't be at the expense of a group
speaker
like the gay and lesbian persons
speaker
or any other, but it will be an
speaker
inclusive sense
speaker
of being a community that
speaker
invites all to be part of this
speaker
fellowship.
speaker
Absolutely.
speaker
And we're grateful,
speaker
Cliff, for your advocacy and
speaker
for your leadership
speaker
in all those efforts.
speaker
Well, and it wasn't advocacy.
speaker
One of the hard things about this
speaker
job was that, you know,
speaker
in one sense, you're called to be a
speaker
leader. In another sense, you're
speaker
called to live out the policies of
speaker
the General Assembly.
speaker
And particularly those early years
speaker
as Stated Clerk, I--.
speaker
Bill Thompson, I guess, is the one
speaker
who said to me.
speaker
He said, "If you get so you're so
speaker
alienated from the positions of the
speaker
church that you can't see that
speaker
they're being available[?] [unclear]
speaker
their change." And
speaker
he said, "If you can't do that, you
speaker
ought to resign." Well, I wasn't
speaker
going to resign.
speaker
And it's one of many
speaker
times that Bill has offered some
speaker
good--some good
speaker
counsel.
speaker
Any rate, fortunately,
speaker
I think we have come to a place
speaker
that both is more inclusive,
speaker
but also is not
speaker
divided on this issue anymore.
speaker
Somehow, you know, when you put the
speaker
issues before the Assembly, this one
speaker
doesn't pop up to the top.
speaker
And it has been---.
speaker
It's not just a barely made
speaker
51%, but
speaker
I think genuinely the church is
speaker
moving toward owning[?]
speaker
both a welcome
speaker
to all people but also
speaker
a sense of saying
speaker
that we may have some ways to go,
speaker
but we want to go together.
speaker
Absolutely.
speaker
Well, in the final ten minutes,
speaker
we're going to now move into
speaker
your call when
speaker
God called you to the voice of the
speaker
church to stand for--right,
speaker
you don't run for, but to stand
speaker
for--Stated Clerk
speaker
of the General Assembly of the
speaker
PC(USA).
speaker
We won't finish this part; we'll
speaker
pick it up in subsequent
speaker
conversations, but now let's enter
speaker
that piece. Let's enter that part.
speaker
So
speaker
Jim Andrews, then Stated Clerk,
speaker
decided not to stand for another
speaker
term, is that right?
speaker
For Stated Clerk?
speaker
Yes.
speaker
And so then a Stated Clerk
speaker
Nomination Committee was
speaker
established.
speaker
And so,
speaker
share with us your discernment
speaker
process. Who are some of the folks
speaker
who nudged you?
speaker
Who did the Holy Spirit nudge you to
speaker
say, Cliff, maybe you should put
speaker
your hat in and apply for this
speaker
Stated Clerk thing?
speaker
Well, I've said and [it's] absolute
speaker
truth, I never applied for
speaker
a job in the church.
speaker
I did agree to stand
speaker
in several occasions.
speaker
But any
speaker
rate, it was--it
speaker
was colleagues in the faith and
speaker
in the community and then
speaker
people assessing me that led me
speaker
to feel that maybe these were--this
speaker
was the call of God.
speaker
So, you know, I've--.
speaker
Any rate, that's--it's
speaker
not a--. It's not been applying
speaker
for a job. It's been being--people
speaker
assuming--. And in some of these, I
speaker
had real doubts about it.
speaker
I mean, the World Alliance of
speaker
Reformed Churches we talked about
speaker
and the, you know,
speaker
other--other kind of efforts
speaker
that have taken place.
speaker
And so--. Well
speaker
any rate, I mean, I think
speaker
that's--that,
speaker
to me, has been a piece
speaker
of all of this is
speaker
that I will--I would be glad
speaker
to be called, but I would not be--I
speaker
would not apply.
speaker
What were those--that
speaker
election--? What, the 1996?
speaker
The
speaker
General Assembly in 1996 is when
speaker
I believe you were elected as Stated
speaker
Clerk. Is that right?
speaker
1996?
speaker
I--. I think so, yes.
speaker
1996. What were some of the
speaker
priorities or the hopes
speaker
that you wanted to bring
speaker
to the church in that first
speaker
term as Stated Clerk?
speaker
Well, several.
speaker
That book that John Mulder suggested
speaker
I wrote--write?
speaker
I wrote it.
speaker
I had a lot of help from John and
speaker
some other people and Bill Hopper.
speaker
But I did think we need--the
speaker
Stated Clerk needs to stand
speaker
for the church, for its
speaker
unity, for its justice work,
speaker
and [for] moving forward.
speaker
So, you know, thanks to the grace
speaker
of God, that's still making
speaker
a little impact in the life of the
speaker
church.
speaker
But that has been
speaker
a piece
speaker
of my work there.
speaker
What's the rest of that question?
speaker
Yeah. Like, what were your
speaker
hopes for that first term as
speaker
Stated Clerk?
speaker
Well, they obviously were
speaker
about--focused on reconciliation and
speaker
unity. II
speaker
Corinthians 5, that we are
speaker
reconciled--we have
speaker
been reconciled to God
speaker
for the ministry of reconciliation.
speaker
And I tried to use that
speaker
as a standard
speaker
for doing this.
speaker
The other one that I gave great
speaker
priority to has been the six
speaker
great ends of the church, and
speaker
I lifted those up. We did booklets
speaker
and pamphlets and everything else
speaker
you can imagine.
speaker
But those six great ends
speaker
really do encompass, in a short,
speaker
crisp way, the
speaker
fundamental calling we have as
speaker
Presbyterian Christians.
speaker
Absolutely. And those were so
speaker
helpful, I have to say.
speaker
Those booklets were helpful, Cliff.
speaker
You were the--. You were the Stated
speaker
Clerk that bridged the centuries
speaker
because your--.
speaker
I hadn't thought of that.
speaker
[Laughs]
speaker
Y2K.
speaker
Like, do you remember Y2K?
speaker
That whole hullabaloo of the Y2K
speaker
would--.
speaker
I do.
speaker
We had groups
speaker
camped out outside the Presbyterian
speaker
Center to, you know, take over when
speaker
the end came, but it didn't make it.
speaker
What were some of your thoughts in
speaker
moving from the 20th century?
speaker
You were deeply involved, deeply
speaker
in leadership in the
speaker
PC(USA), its predecessor to the
speaker
Southern church in the
speaker
late 20th century then moving to the
speaker
21st.
speaker
Like what was sort of the--your
speaker
feeling or your casting vision,
speaker
fears of, you know,
speaker
what was sort of the unfinished
speaker
business of Presbyterianism
speaker
from the 20th century and then
speaker
moving into the 21st century from
speaker
your position as Stated Clerk?
speaker
That first term as Stated Clerk?
speaker
Well.
speaker
Where do we start?
speaker
In many ways, part of why I
speaker
had not continued in--as Stated
speaker
Clerk at this point.
speaker
One is, I have done
speaker
full term and am
speaker
not in a situation of
speaker
health and life that would allow me to
speaker
continue.
speaker
But more than that,
speaker
it's--we need to be
speaker
in a mode of
speaker
transition from a rec--from
speaker
a regular basis.
speaker
We don't need people that are not
speaker
there for a long time, but we don't
speaker
really need people to stay as a
speaker
birthright kind of--to--and there
speaker
were.
speaker
So I
speaker
have supported every one of my
speaker
successors and think the church
speaker
has done well with all of them.
speaker
And I
speaker
will support them in any way I can
speaker
and will stay out of their hair for
speaker
other reasons.
speaker
There you go.
speaker
Well, we have--. We have four more
speaker
minutes, and I wanted to ask you
speaker
this part: in your first
speaker
term as Stated Clerk, you led
speaker
a delegation from the PC(USA)
speaker
to visit the
speaker
Holy Father,
speaker
then Pope John Paul II.
speaker
Can you share with us about that
speaker
experience of going to the Vatican
speaker
and meeting Pope John Paul II and
speaker
addressing in a private audience
speaker
with him?
speaker
Well, I went--. I did that three or
speaker
four times, but part
speaker
of it, a couple of those, are
speaker
in--from the World Communion of
speaker
Reformed Churches.
speaker
We are--.
speaker
The Vatican--.
speaker
The counterpart to the Vatican in
speaker
the Protestant world is the World
speaker
Communion of Reformed Churches.
speaker
It's not quite the same thing,
speaker
obviously, but that has been
speaker
the connection. And so we have
speaker
worked hard to stay--keep the
speaker
good, reformed
speaker
ecumenical
speaker
and traditions alive
speaker
in--in the Vatican.
speaker
Vatican had offered
speaker
an invitation to the churches
speaker
that they would
speaker
comment on
speaker
how they--how
speaker
those of us in the reformed
speaker
tradition might
speaker
see the
speaker
successor to Peter as
speaker
a sign of hope
speaker
for the broader church.
speaker
We took that seriously.
speaker
We asked them to take that
speaker
seriously, so we had this group.
speaker
We went to the Vatican.
speaker
We had some others with the World
speaker
Communion of Reformed Churches.
speaker
But both the Catholic
speaker
Church and the Presbyterian Church
speaker
believe there's one church, and
speaker
we're both part of it.
speaker
We--. During our time here, we've
speaker
made officially the--the shared
speaker
recognition
speaker
of baptism with one another.
speaker
We have, in other words,
speaker
looked at the
speaker
BEM--the "Baptism, Eucharist, and
speaker
Ministry." A number
speaker
of signs that say that
speaker
we are ultimately--even if
speaker
we can't call each other
speaker
church in quite that way--we
speaker
can't run[?] the Reformed Church,
speaker
but they can.
speaker
But that there is a spirit that
speaker
doesn't want to further
speaker
division but wants to further unity.
speaker
And given that the--you
speaker
know, half the people of the world
speaker
almost, are Catholic--we
speaker
need to keep in those relationships
speaker
strong.
speaker
Indeed. And that mutual recognition
speaker
of baptism agreement took
speaker
five hundred years. Is that right?
speaker
Five hundred, five centuries to
speaker
arrive at an agreement--
speaker
Yes.
speaker
--on baptism.
speaker
So.
speaker
And
speaker
for most of our people, that seemed
speaker
like a given. I mean, nobody--.
speaker
But, you know, fifty,
speaker
sixty years ago, if you were
speaker
in a reformed church and moved to a
speaker
Presbyterian area, you had to be
speaker
baptized again.
speaker
And that just didn't
speaker
make no sense.
speaker
And so that--.
speaker
This was, in most cases,
speaker
people had already ignored the
speaker
[unclear] advice that did not
speaker
welcome Catholics, but that
speaker
move with the practical level
speaker
of transition between Catholic
speaker
and Protestant was one
speaker
thing that happened during those
speaker
years.
speaker
Amen. And with that, we're going to
speaker
end this, Cliff.
speaker
I'm going to turn off the recording.

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Title: Cliff Kirkpatrick oral history, 2023.
Description: Oral history of Stated Clerk Emeritus Cliff Kirkpatrick interviewed by Rev. Dr. Neal Presa and recorded via Zoom by Randy Hobson of OGA Communications on July 25, 2023. The Rev. Dr. Clifton Kirkpatrick is an ordained minister who served for fifteen years as the Director of the Worldwide Ministries Division before becoming Stated Clerk. He served in this capacity from 1996-2008 and, at the conclusion of his service, was elected by the General Assembly as Stated Clerk Emeritus. His other leadership roles included Co-moderator of the General Assembly Special Committee on the Belhar Confession and member of the Board of Directors of the Covenant Network of Presbyterians. Kirkpatrick attended Davidson College (BA), Yale University (MDiv), and McCormick Theological Seminary (DMin).
Creator: Kirkpatrick, Clifton, 1945- (interviewee)
Presa, Neal D. (interviewer)
Hobson, Randy. (recording engineer)
Date: 2023
July 25, 2023
Type of resource: moving image
Genre: interviews
oral histories
Form: born digital
video recordings
Extent: 1.44 MB (1 MP4 file)
Language: English
Subject names: Kirkpatrick, Clifton, 1945-
Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). General Assembly. Office of the Stated Clerk.
Covenant Network of Presbyterians.
Topics: Presbyterian Church--Church officers.
Presbyterian Church--Clergy.
Church leadership--Presbyterian Church.
Geographic subjects: North and Central America--United States
Rights status: IN COPYRIGHT - NON-COMMERCIAL USE PERMITTED; http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/
Physical location: ARCHIVES 23-0805; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA
Related item: Cliff Kirkpatrick oral history, 2023. --https://prestohost68.inmagic.com/Presto/content/Detail.aspx?ctID=Y2RiNWN...
Identifier (local): CliffKirkpatrick_20230725
PID (Persistent Identifier): islandora:346653

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