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Cliff Kirkpatrick oral history, 2023.
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- speakerGood.
- speakerAll right.
- speakerWell, Cliff, good morning.
- speakerAnd we're--.
- speakerGood morning.
- speakerGood morning. And this
- speakeris the second conversation
- speakerwith Reverend Doctor Clifton
- speakerKirkpatrick, Stated Clerk Emeritus
- speakerof the General Assembly of the
- speakerPresbyterian Church (U.S.A).
- speakerAnd today is Tuesday the 25th
- speakerof July, 2023.
- speakerCliff,
- speakerlet's begin this--. [Chime] Oh excuse me.
- speakerLet's begin this conversation
- speakerwith--.
- speakerExcuse me for that.
- speakerLet's begin this
- speakerconversation, this second
- speakerconversation, in
- speakercontinuing with our--with our
- speakerprevious conversation on the 1982
- speakerOttawa General Council of
- speakerthe World Alliance of Reformed
- speakerChurches, where
- speakeryou had accompanied,
- speakerthen Stated Clerk, Jim Andrews
- speakerat that pivotal General
- speakerCouncil of the Alliance.
- speakerAllan Boesak being elected president
- speakerand the Alliance taking
- speakerthat decisive stand
- speakerin declaring apartheid
- speakerin South Africa as sin.
- speakerCan you tell us a little bit more
- speakerabout your
- speakerreflections and experiences from
- speakerwhat you can recall from that
- speakerGeneral Council in Ottawa?
- speakerWell, it was hugely,
- speakerhugely controversial.
- speakerBut on the other hand, it was felt
- speakerurgently that there was a need for
- speakera word from the reformed tradition
- speakerto the struggle for justice
- speakerbased on race and economics and
- speakerhuman well-being.
- speakerAnd Allan
- speakerBoesak--you mentioned him--had been
- speakerincredibly articulate
- speakerto lift up that cause.
- speakerAnd what was particularly
- speakersignificant about this is that it
- speakerdrawed--. A lot of folks were
- speakerdealing with racism, with gender
- speakerjustice, with those things, but they
- speakerweren't connecting that, quite
- speakeras much as I think is called for,
- speakerto the confessional heritage of the
- speakerchurch.
- speakerAnd we say that in our
- speakerhierarchy, if you would, of
- speakerauthorities, that
- speakerthe role of confessions is very
- speakerimportant.
- speakerAnd people had argued in
- speakersome ways that we were
- speakerignoring the confessions in order to
- speakerfocus on a popular issue of
- speakerthe day.
- speakerWell, in reality is the focus on
- speakerthe confessions drive
- speakerus to the contemporary issue of the
- speakerday, particularly in terms
- speakerof racism, particularly
- speakerin terms of injustice,
- speakerparticularly in terms of doing all
- speakerof this in the context of
- speakerthe unity of the church and its work
- speakertogether.
- speakerSo that had a lot of
- speakerwork in it. Allan Boesak
- speakerwas--for a few years continued
- speakerin that role.
- speakerFollowing that--or maybe even
- speakerbefore.
- speakerI'm trying to think of the
- speakerchronology, but--.
- speakerJane Dempsey Douglass, who is
- speakera professor out in California
- speakerand [a] reformed
- speakervisionary of the first order, you
- speakerknow, she had a huge role in that.
- speakerAnd then I was asked
- speakerto take a role
- speakeras the president of the World
- speakerAlliance, and
- speakerthat focus
- speakerwas on understanding
- speakerthe confessions as
- speakera--as a bedrock principle,
- speakerand one that called us to
- speakeraction and to serious action.
- speakerOut of all that came both
- speakerthe commitment to reaffirm the
- speakerBelhar Confession,
- speakerbut also work on a new confession
- speakerthat's still somewhat in progress
- speakercalled the Accra
- speakerConfession. The--. And Belhar,
- speakerobviously, focused on issues of
- speakerrace.
- speakerThe--. The
- speakerfocus on the Accra Confession
- speakerfocused on economics and economic
- speakerjustice, in a sense that you got
- speakerto have both in a [unclear] human
- speakercommunity.
- speakerAbsolutely.
- speakerWell, since we were on the subject
- speakerof WARC, even though
- speakerwe're sort of lingering in
- speakerthe eighties and you mentioned
- speakersome luminaries. Of course, the
- speakerDoctor Professor Jane Dempsey
- speakerDouglass, professor
- speakeremerita at Princeton Seminary, the
- speakerfirst woman to be elected
- speakerpresident of the World Alliance of
- speakerReformed Churches.
- speakerWhat was that like in that General
- speakerCouncil that elected
- speakerProfessor Douglass in
- speakerthe Alliance's historic commitment
- speakerto gender justice and now to elect
- speakerthe first woman to serve as
- speakerpresident of the World Alliance?
- speakerWell, it was obviously
- speakerprophetic, but imminently
- speakerlogical that if you're working
- speakeron an inclusive gospel,
- speakerobviously, the dynamics of women
- speakerin the ministry that
- speakerare being not allowed
- speakerfull communion is
- speakersomething that needed to be
- speakeraddressed. And so that was there.
- speakerAnd certainly having somebody like
- speakerJane Dempsey Douglass. No
- speakerone could question that there--this
- speakerwas a compendium[?]
- speakerof the best of the reformed
- speakertradition.
- speakerAbsolutely.
- speakerAbsolutely. And she served so well
- speakerand ably in that--in
- speakerthat position. In
- speakerthe--. In the post-Ottawa
- speakerGeneral Council when
- speakerthe Alliance took the position
- speakerto declare apartheid a sin,
- speakerit also suspended the
- speakermembership of one of the Dutch
- speakerReformed churches.
- speakerRight.
- speakerHow was that? How was that
- speakerdone--that atmosphere of
- speakerdiscussions with the Dutch
- speakerReformed Church and then its
- speakersuspension and then many, many years
- speakerlater brought back into the--into,
- speakerthen, the World Communion of
- speakerReformed Churches?
- speakerWhat was that sort of reaction to
- speakertaking that serious action to
- speakersuspend one of the Dutch Reformed
- speakerchurches who were supporting
- speakerapartheid?
- speakerWell, I--I
- speakerreally was deeply involved in both
- speakerthe leaving and the return of the
- speakerDutch Reformed Church.
- speakerAnd so I guess I can speak
- speakersome to that.
- speakerThe leaving feature is
- speakerin a place where confessions
- speakerreally matter, and they
- speakerhave an authority. Mining
- speakerthose confessions to
- speakerfind the gospel truth
- speakeris something that was very
- speakerimportant.
- speakerThis was hugely debated.
- speakerThe South African churches
- speakerindicated they would not and could
- speakernot support that.
- speakerThe balanced--the
- speakerlarger--part of the communion,
- speakerindicated
- speakerthat it's hard to understand
- speakerthe gospel--the inclusive
- speakergospel--if you can't
- speakerinvite certain people because of
- speakerrace to be part of it.
- speakerSo it was--. It was tense.
- speakerIt was a close vote, but
- speakeras it came through, I think
- speakersome real sense that
- speakerthe right thing had been done.
- speakerAnd I think
- speakerhistory has proved that
- speakerworldwide, not just as--not just as
- speakera North American issue, but
- speakerworldwide, the issues
- speakerof racism is really at the heart
- speakerof the gospel message.
- speakerYes.
- speakerAnd then you mentioned the return
- speakerof that--of that Dutch
- speakerReformed Church.
- speakerYou were then serving at that time,
- speakerthen around
- speaker2010, 2014,
- speakerduring that period, you were
- speakeron the Executive Committee of the
- speakerWorld Communion Reformed Churches.
- speakerI think Grady Parsons was now our
- speakerStated Clerk at that point,
- speakerand--Stated Clerk of the
- speakerGeneral Assembly--and that Dutch
- speakerReformed Church that had been
- speakersuspended in the early eighties
- speakerwas then brought back into now then
- speakerthe World Communion of Reformed
- speakerChurches.
- speakerWhat was that discussion like?
- speakerWell, the criteria that we set up
- speakerwhen we suspended
- speakerthe Dutch Reformed Church was
- speakerthat the criteria involve
- speakeran open invitation to all people
- speakerto join in receiving
- speakerthe--the
- speakercommunion of the church and to
- speakerrepudiate actions that had
- speakerbeen taken in support
- speakerof apartheid.
- speakerAnd when those actions were taken to
- speakermake those changes, it felt
- speakerto me and to the majority in
- speakerthe Alliance that having--.
- speakerWe may not have solved every
- speakerproblem, but having
- speakerdealt with those two big issues,
- speakerwe were really
- speakerconscience-driven to invite the
- speakerDutch Reformed Church to return but
- speakerwith a clear understanding that it's
- speakerto return to
- speakerthe fellowship and the communion.
- speakerThat's where the term communion
- speakergets important. That a sense of
- speakercommunion exist between the
- speakerchurches.
- speakerRight. Absolutely.
- speakerWell, we're
- speakerglad. We're glad that--that
- speakerour siblings in that Dutch Reformed
- speakerChurch were illuminated by the work
- speakerof the spirit.
- speakerThey confessed their both complicity
- speakerand their sin in supporting
- speakerapartheid, and [we're] grateful for
- speakerrepentance in that.
- speakerAnd they're back in the--in the
- speakerreformed fold, as it were.
- speakerYou had mentioned, as well,
- speakera major confession.
- speakerWell, it was controversial at
- speakerthe time, as I understand it, in
- speakerAccra,
- speakerwhether to call it a confession.
- speakerBut the Accra Confession, and you
- speakerwere Stated Clerk at that
- speakertime then in 2004
- speakerGeneral Council of the World
- speakerAlliance of Reformed Churches in
- speakerAccra, Ghana.
- speakerCan you tell us about
- speakerthat whole
- speakeratmosphere and experience
- speakerof adopting
- speakerthe Accra Confession and
- speakerhow it is a
- speakerdifferent kind of a confession?
- speakerLike what made it different and--and
- speakerwhat was sort of the controversy
- speakersurrounding that confession?
- speakerWell,
- speaker[unclear] issues around it. Obviously,
- speakeron the one side, issues of race
- speakerand class [unclear].
- speakerBut other--. The deeper issue of
- speakerconfession is
- speakerthat we
- speakerwere being called to honor our
- speakerconfessions and not to--not
- speakerto let them sit on the sideline
- speakeras in [the] past and simply be
- speakerpolicy statements and things like
- speakerthat because important as they are.
- speakerAnd so that focus
- speakeron confession, certainly
- speakerin the reformed community, that[?]
- speakerpower and energy when you connect
- speakerthe notion of confession
- speakerwith the notion of justice.
- speakerYou put it together, and you get
- speakerthat.
- speakerWe're not fully at the same place
- speakerright now yet with the
- speakerAccra Confession. I think we've
- speakertaken action encouraging churches to
- speakeradopt it.
- speakerPresbyterian Church (U.S.A.) has
- speakeradopted the Accra Confession
- speakerand others, but we are still
- speakerin the process of receiving and
- speakeracting upon the Accra
- speakerConfession in the broader reformed
- speakerfamily.
- speakerWell, and that--.
- speakerAnd that particular confession in
- speakercalling for covenanting
- speakerfor justice in the economy and the
- speakerearth.
- speakerThere was some--. There was some
- speakerresistance upon our friends
- speakerin the Global North.
- speakerYou know, what was that meaning?
- speakerAnd talking about empire.
- speakerCritiquing the--the
- speakerbroad tentacles of empire
- speakerin every part of life
- speakerand the adverse consequences
- speakerof that.
- speakerWhat was that tense
- speakermoments at that General Council?
- speakerHow did you navigate that?
- speakerWell, I navigated, hopefully, well
- speakerby using the basic principles I
- speakerteach in my polity course. And
- speakerfocus to really
- speakerdeal with each other in honesty and
- speakerintegrity, deal with each other in a
- speakerpolity that both enables certain
- speakerthings to get done but also
- speakerpeople to be cared for in the
- speakerprocess.
- speakerAnd so the--the
- speakerpolity proved us well.
- speakerWe dealt it in committees. We dealt
- speakerit in--. One
- speakerof the things that the polity does
- speakerfor us is to ensure that everybody
- speakergets a table--a seat at the table
- speakerand a place to
- speakerwork from and to.
- speakerAnd so that
- speakerwas really a--. I said this to Stevens[?], this
- speakeris--. If you want to see that, go
- speakertry and find the videos
- speakerand see how polity is
- speakerdone even in a very large
- speakergroup. Obviously, the General
- speakerAssembly is up for a
- speakerstudy in that same thing,
- speakerbut it was--it
- speakerpaired the best in the Presbyterian
- speakerpolity as well as Presbyterian
- speakertheology.
- speakerWell, you must have navigated
- speakerthat General Council so well,
- speakerbecause that same General Council in
- speaker2004 in Accra, Ghana,
- speakerelected you as president of the
- speakerWorld Alliance of Reformed Churches.
- speakerAnd we debated that in some ways.
- speakerI mean, I really was very
- speakerhesitant about that.
- speakerI thought we needed someone from
- speakerthe Global South--the
- speakerpeople from the Global South.
- speakerI said, "Now
- speakerif there was ever a time that we
- speakerneed the Global North to speak up on
- speakerour behalf, it's now." Because--so
- speakerthat the--the voice
- speakerof the world church can be heard
- speakerand not simply a small portion
- speakerof it--a big portion but--of
- speakerit in the--in
- speakerthe group that is known for being
- speakerfor economic
- speakerand ecological justice.
- speakerSo any rate, I
- speakerwas--remember coming to see me in
- speakerthe evening and having a long, long
- speakerchat. Said clearly, I mean,
- speakerit has to be a very unanimous
- speakerkind of action, and it
- speakerpretty much was.
- speakerAnd--.
- speakerBut it was--it
- speakerwas not what I expected.
- speakerI--. An interesting sideline to
- speakerthat is that when
- speakerI got there, I was
- speakeralready nervous and got in the
- speakershower at the
- speakerUniversity of Ghana that--where we
- speakerwere meeting--and a snake
- speakercame up under the shower stall and
- speakerbit me in the toe of the foot.
- speakerSo I was sort of like
- speakerMoses and the
- speakerburning bush, but it was a-- [Neal
- speakerchuckles]. It was an interesting
- speakerthing to be hopping around on
- speakerone--one cane.
- speakerIt wasn't, fortunately, a seriously
- speakerthreatening--life threatening thing,
- speakerbut I figured, you know,
- speakerwhat else is there [laughs]?
- speaker[Laughs] There you go.
- speakerThere you go. You were--. A
- speakerclear sign that you were--you
- speakerwere in it, and you were in it for
- speakerthe long haul, whatever assignment
- speakeris needed.
- speakerAnd so tell us about how
- speakerthen you navigated--. We're--.
- speakerWe're going out of the chronology,
- speakerwhich is okay. We're going to stay,
- speakerthen, with the--with your work with
- speakerthe World Alliance, and we'll talk
- speakersoon about the World Communion of
- speakerReformed Churches. But tell us about
- speakerthose years when you served as
- speakerpresident of the World Alliance of
- speakerReformed Churches simultaneous
- speakerwith being Stated Clerk of the
- speakerGeneral Assembly. What
- speakerwas that like? I mean, navigating
- speakerboth roles that took you
- speakertraveling hundreds of
- speakerthousands of miles globally and
- speakeraround the country.
- speakerHow did you sort of
- speakernavigate both roles?
- speakerWell, I told my colleagues
- speakerthat this was unusual, and
- speakerthat I would have to have a real,
- speakerreal word from
- speakeron high or from
- speakercolleagues that this is an important
- speakerthing to do.
- speakerAnd I guess I was glad that the
- speakercommunity, who with
- speakerserious prayer and concern,
- speakerthat this was maybe a moment
- speakerthat--unrelated
- speakerto other things--that called
- speakerfor somebody like me
- speakerto step up to the plate
- speakerand ask others from the Global North
- speakerand the Global South to join
- speakertogether to make a difference
- speakerin this arena.
- speakerWhat was your favorite part about
- speakerserving as president of the World
- speakerAlliance of Reformed Churches?
- speakerThe people I got to know.
- speakerAnd
- speakerwe talked yesterday a little bit
- speakerabout the
- speakerkind of people in the PC(USA) that
- speakerkind of spoke to you and to me
- speakerand made a difference in our life.
- speakerWell that could be said
- speakerten times over.
- speakerI mean, I--.
- speakerProbably the person
- speakerI met [to] make the best and
- speakerstrongest bonds with was
- speakerSetri Nyomi who was the general
- speakersecretary in the World
- speakerCommunion.
- speakerSetri is a Ghanaian.
- speakerSetri as the one that, much more
- speakerthan any other elected person, like
- speakermyself, who
- speakerlaid out the vision, who supported
- speakerthe cause, who
- speakerencouraged people to
- speakerstand up for the cause of
- speakerrighteousness and justice.
- speakerSo--. And there are a lot of other
- speakerpeople like that: the colleagues in
- speakerSouth Africa and all that
- speakerrepresented[?], colleagues in
- speakerLatin America where
- speakerthey--where
- speakersimilar kind of
- speakersituation of oppression and need
- speakera living out.
- speakerAnd so there was a global sense
- speakerthat the time had come, and
- speakerthat they would be found
- speakeralready[?] with Belhar.
- speakerThat this is something
- speakerthat is for Belhar, but it's
- speakeralso for the broader reformed plan.
- speakerAbsolutely.
- speakerSetri. Setri Nyomi. Our
- speakerbeloved friend, prophetic
- speakerleader, great leader in the
- speakerecumenical movement, and there
- speakerin Ghana where he teaches and
- speakerpastors [and] continues to do so.
- speakerYou and Setri
- speakerwere--.
- speakerSo you were president, he was
- speakergeneral secretary, and both
- speakerof you worked
- speakerso well in navigating
- speakerthe critical discussions
- speakerof what then became the World
- speakerCommunion of Reformed Churches.
- speakerCan you tell us a little bit about
- speakerthe back story of
- speakerconversations with the Re-- of the,
- speakerthen, Reformed Ecumenical
- speakerCouncil--REC--and
- speakerthe World Alliance? The backstory
- speakerof that? How did that come about?
- speakerWell, let's just go first to the
- speakerWorld Communion and
- speakermove on to that.
- speakerThe--. Well,
- speakerthe--the work with Setri
- speakerwas just such a blessing. We--. One
- speakerof us is a morning person, the
- speakerother a night person, so every day
- speakerwe had at 5:00 Eastern Time,
- speakerwe had a conference call, the two of
- speakerus. Some days we had
- speakervery little, but we touched base
- speakerevery day.
- speakerAnd we--we
- speakertried to be faithful.
- speakerWe had time to pray.
- speakerIt was the richest fellowship
- speakerI've been a part of [in] most my
- speakerlife. And
- speakerso that's one part now
- speakerthat's there.
- speakerThe other piece, when you do
- speakersomething like this, you discover
- speakerthat, you know, the World Alliance
- speakerand World Communion are not the sum
- speakertotal of this.
- speakerRecently, some years back,
- speakersomebody did a study of all the
- speakerreformed denominations in North
- speakerAmerica. There were eighty-three.
- speakerI mean, we have divided and split up
- speakerin all kind of ways that are really
- speakerbeyond what I think God intends.
- speakerAnd one of those ways that--.
- speakerIn many ways, if you go
- speakerall the way back, the World
- speakerCommunion and World Alliance
- speakercomes out of
- speakerthe--the Scottish tradition
- speakerand the--the
- speakertradition, which is also reformed
- speakercoming out of the Netherlands.
- speakerAnd the whole Dutch reformed
- speakermovement is the other [unclear] side
- speakerof that.
- speakerAnd so we committed ourselves in the
- speakerWorld Communion and Setri did
- speakeras well to--to
- speakerfocus on the--on
- speakerthese other kind of divisions
- speakerthat were eager for a
- speakerchange. And so particularly
- speakerthe Reformed Ecumenical
- speakerCouncil, which was a group of--some
- speakermight see it as a little more
- speakerconservative--but equally committed
- speakerto the reformed tradition and the
- speakerreformed unity.
- speakerAnd they, too, became
- speakerinterested in being part of this
- speakerreformed fellowship.
- speakerAnd that's where we changed the
- speakername. We're no longer an
- speakeralliance with that.
- speakerWe're not an alliance structurally
- speakereither, but we would no longer an
- speakeralliance, but we are a communion.
- speakerBecause we recognized that we were
- speakerin full communion.
- speakerWe heard that term about communion
- speakerin Belhar, but that
- speakerfull communion was
- speakerwhat brought us together with
- speakerthe Dutch Reformed family and
- speakerbringing together more and
- speakermore of the reformed community into
- speakera common fellowship.
- speakerWe've done pretty well with that.
- speakerAnd there are certainly
- speakerfolks in Reformed Ecumenical Council
- speakerand the World Communion
- speakerof Churches.
- speakerAll of those feel like
- speakerthis is--that was the right thing to
- speakerdo.
- speakerNow we have challenges,
- speakerotherwise--challenges financially,
- speakerchallenges in
- speakercommitment, all those things.
- speakerBut the fundamental building blocks
- speakerthat were represented by the World
- speakerCommunion of Reformed Churches and
- speakerthe Reformed Ecumenical Council have
- speakerheld up and held up strong.
- speakerYes. And then--.
- speakerAnd that all culminated at that
- speakeruniting General Council in Grand
- speakerRapids, Michigan [in] 2010
- speakerwhere you finished your
- speakerpresidency--by then a
- speakerjoint presidency
- speakerfor that General Council.
- speakerAnd then Jerry Pillay was
- speakerthen elected as president of the
- speakerWorld Communion of Reformed
- speakerChurches.
- speakerI was there with you, I think, at
- speakerthat--at that General Council.
- speakerCan you share a little bit your
- speakerexperience of bringing
- speakertogether the Reformed Ecumenical
- speakerCouncil, the World Alliance
- speakerto this world--and birthing this
- speakerWorld Communion of Reformed
- speakerChurches?
- speakerWhat was that--?
- speakerWell, it was--. It was easier to do
- speakerthat than it was to bring together
- speakerthe union out of South Africa and
- speakerthe issues of racism.
- speakerBut they both were--. Both were part
- speakerof a common stream.
- speakerAnd both
- speakerthose things that I think
- speakerhappened and were clearly the will
- speakerof God.
- speakerThe--.
- speakerWhat was the other side of the
- speakerquestion?
- speakerOh, and then Jerry
- speakerPillay was then elected--.
- speakerOh Jerry. Yes, Jerry. Jerry Pillay, who
- speakerwas the executive director
- speakerof the--of the United
- speakerPresbyterian Church in Southern
- speakerAfrica.
- speakerJerry had been on the executive
- speakercommittee and a leader in all kind
- speakerof ways in the reformed movement,
- speakerand we--.
- speakerThe community tried
- speakerto get at Jerry at the time
- speakerto take on that challenge.
- speakerHe indicated the
- speakertime wasn't right, but within a year
- speakerthey got right that Jerry is now the
- speakergeneral secretary of the World
- speakerCouncil of Churches.
- speakerAnd so the reformed movement is--its
- speakertentacles are very--.
- speakerWe've got to be a little bit humble
- speakerbecause it's tentacles are in so
- speakermany places.
- speakerBut Jerry is a
- speakergreat leader and
- speakeris doing a good job
- speakerwith the--with the World Council of
- speakerChurches where much of
- speakerthe spirit--you got to use different
- speakerlanguage, but you got to have the
- speakerspirit of unity, of justice,
- speakerof partnership that are really
- speakerat the heart of the work we do.
- speakerAbsolutely. And he's serving so
- speakerably as our general secretary.
- speakerSo
- speakerglad we're able to linger there a
- speakerlittle bit in the outcomes
- speakerof that pivotal world-uniting
- speakerGeneral Council of the WCRC
- speakerthat elected him as president of the
- speakerWCRC.
- speakerLet's now go back then--.
- speakerSo now we'll go back again
- speakerto where we were in the eighties.
- speakerSo we'll leave the WARC and WCRC
- speakerfor the moment and
- speakerfocus again then on the late
- speakereighties. So we'll go back to the
- speakerlate eighties and early nineties.
- speakerYou were director of Worldwide
- speakerMinistries.
- speakerYes.
- speakerAnd this new denomination called
- speakerPC(USA) that had
- speakerreunited in Atlanta
- speakertrying to figure out how to
- speakerlive as a reunited denomination.
- speakerThe northern church with its
- speakerheadquarters in New York,
- speakerthe southern church with its
- speakerheadquarters in Atlanta, decides
- speakerthen to move to
- speakerLouisville, Kentucky, of all
- speakerplaces.
- speakerYes.
- speakerCan you tell us about that?
- speakerIf there's any back story that you
- speakerwere a part of in that or anything
- speakerthat--.
- speakerHow did that unfold do you know?
- speakerWell, I inherited a collection
- speakerof Louisville slugger bats,
- speakerand that's a
- speakerback story.
- speakerBut there was a real intrigue
- speakerfolks had around the Louisville
- speakerconnection.
- speakerThere was--.
- speakerWell, as most of you know, the--the
- speakermovement was--. There was a lot of
- speakermovement out there [for] anywhere
- speakerbut Atlanta or New York
- speakerbecause there were obvious reasons
- speakerfor the two of them.
- speakerBut with an effort to do a new
- speakerthing, to do it together, it was
- speakerfelt like it didn't have quite the
- speakersynergy that we had in the WARC
- speakersituation.
- speakerBut that, you know, it would
- speakerhelp us to be one church
- speakerif we could find a way toward
- speakerorganic unity.
- speakerAnd we did.
- speakerWe had a
- speakernumber of committees, which is
- speakertypical Presbyterian way
- speakerof doing it, and
- speakerin the process began to work
- speakeron cause after cause related
- speakerto putting a structure together.
- speakerAnd they had--. There was
- speakerboth--there was a decision to have
- speakera piece of what was going on to
- speakercontinue through
- speakerthe agencies that existed before.
- speakerSo you had two mission agencies, so
- speakerit was a little messy, but it
- speakerwas--it worked out.
- speakerOn the other hand,
- speakerit kept everybody in the
- speakerbigger umbrella
- speakerbecause you had the--the
- speakerpeople who were active in the
- speakerleadership--they were not
- speakerthe program staff--but they
- speakerwere volunteer leadership
- speakerthat kind of kept building the
- speakerbridges because they weren't quite
- speakeras invested in the--in
- speakerthe volunteer leadership effort.
- speakerSo any rate, the--all
- speakerof that goodwill and
- speakerthe two sides, one
- speakerbeing staff driven and one being
- speakervolunteer driven, really
- speakerhelped us move forward to--.
- speakerIt--. We took
- speakersome time because it was--took,
- speakerwhat, three, four, five years
- speakerbefore we pulled it all together.
- speakerBut it was done thoroughly and well,
- speakerand I think
- speakerit has proved okay over time.
- speakerBut we clearly misjudged how much
- speakerfunds we were[?], so we had to be
- speakerdoing a lot of budget-cutting all
- speakerthe time.
- speakerAnd I regret that we
- speakergot into that phase.
- speakerYes.
- speakerYou recall what the other runner up
- speakercities were besides Louisville?
- speakerKansas City.
- speakerOkay.
- speakerI think Kansas City was the one that
- speakerthe committee recommended
- speakerthat we go to.
- speakerAnd I know I got
- speakera [unclear], along with other directors,
- speakerhad a wonderful weekend in Kansas
- speakerCity. I mean, we saw the town,
- speakerbut they were--that committee--was
- speaker[unclear] how can they change it. As
- speakerin Presbyterian polity, you can
- speakerchange it up until the time it's
- speakerdone. So any
- speakerrate,
- speakerthat Kansas
- speakerCity was clearly
- speakerthe expected outcome.
- speakerBut the other side of that is
- speakerpeople--nobody was really
- speakerjust eager to
- speakerjump into the parade.
- speakerAnd so there
- speakerbecame a movement of looking for
- speakeranother site.
- speakerAnd partly
- speakerthe other side of that is there was
- speakera strong movement here in
- speakerMid-Kentucky Presbytery
- speakerwhere you had
- speakerpeople really deeply wanting to
- speakerwork in this particular area.
- speakerJohn Mulder and people at the
- speakerLouisville Seminary had a lot
- speakerto do with encouraging people to
- speakerstay and find a grounding
- speakerin a reformed seminary.
- speakerAnd well,
- speakerany rate, that's kind of
- speakerhow we got to that place.
- speakerDid you mention Louisville Seminary.
- speakerWere you retired?
- speakerYou had two retirements.
- speakerYou retired as Stated Clerk, made
- speakerStated Clerk Emeritus, and then you
- speakerwent to Louisville Seminary
- speakerand then retired from that
- speakerposition, right, as a professor?
- speakerI had four retirements,
- speakerand we're not going to have any more
- speaker[Neal laughs]. But yeah.
- speakerYeah. You taught ecumenical studies
- speakerand world Christianity at
- speakerLouisville, and we'll talk about
- speakerthat piece in a
- speakersubsequent conv--in a successive
- speakerconversation, but--.
- speakerIn terms of seminaries, I wanted to
- speakerask you briefly
- speakerabout that.
- speakerThere were seminaries in a northern
- speakerchurch and seminaries in the
- speakersouthern church.
- speakerYes.
- speakerSo in this post reunion period,
- speakerlate eighties,
- speakerwhat was that like in terms of
- speakerbringing all of those seminaries
- speakerinto one umbrella?
- speakerWell, that took some doing.
- speakerI know I spent every year with the
- speakermeeting of the seminary president
- speakerand trying to just be
- speakersure we nurture those relationships.
- speakerWe had an incredible group of
- speakerseminary presidents at that period
- speakerof history, and we wouldn't have
- speakerdone it without them. It was the
- speakerseminary presidents
- speakerthat often ended up being a
- speakermoderator to the Assembly.
- speakerIt was a
- speakergroup of people that
- speakerclearly wanted this to succeed,
- speakerand they pretty well did so.
- speakerI remember--I
- speakerremember some
- speakerof the work being done.
- speakerWe had, for example, the--they
- speakerhad a suggestion that came that
- speakeryou needed to write to the Stated
- speakerClerk.
- speakerYou needed to write a book about
- speakerwhat unites Presbyterians.
- speaker[cell phone rings] Well, I said I don't--.
- speakerSo
- speaker[unclear] this is being recorded.
- speakerI think someone's calling you.
- speakerShould have closed that out.
- speakerThat's right. Maybe the phone voice
- speakermail will go on.
- speakerThere you go.
- speakerOkay. I'm sorry.
- speakerNo worries. Yeah.
- speakerSo the seminaries--. You were
- speakertalking about the seminary presidents
- speakerafter reunion.
- speakerThey wanted this to happen for--to
- speakerreally work, to make it happen,
- speakerto bring the seminaries of the
- speakernorthern church, the southern church
- speakerall together.
- speakerAnd some of them, like Louisville,
- speakerwere related to both.
- speakerMm-hmm.
- speakerAnd so you already had
- speakera fertile field there.
- speakerAnd they
- speakerhave--.
- speakerAny rate, there was, I think on the
- speakerwhole, a good sense
- speakerabout that.
- speakerThe other thing is we're not--we
- speakerweren't that different.
- speakerI mean, basically, we had--we
- speakerhad a little different format
- speakerof what you do, but basically
- speakerwe had the same
- speakerBook of Confessions, the same
- speakerpolity, the same,
- speakeras I told--said yesterday, it's the
- speakersame world mission strategy.
- speakerAnd so we had--we
- speakerwere set to go with the
- speakertheological education in support of
- speakerreunion.
- speakerYes.
- speakerYou recall any
- speakerkey figures in those discussions,
- speakerin the Council of
- speakerSeminary Presidents or the--those
- speakermeetings with seminary presidents,
- speakertheological education leaders?
- speakerWho are some of the key figures in
- speakerthose--in those discussions?
- speakerWell, the--.
- speakerJohn--John Mulder I mentioned
- speakerand had a key role
- speakerin that.
- speakerWe had, you
- speakerknow, some variety of people.
- speakerJim Costen we talked about
- speakeryesterday.
- speakerHis role was very important
- speakerin the coming together of reunion
- speakerand overcoming the racial barriers
- speakerthat had divided us.
- speakerSo those would be three that I would
- speakerlift up.
- speakerYeah.
- speakerOkay.
- speakerWell very good.
- speakerWell, Cliff, we have about fifteen
- speakermore minutes--fifteen more minutes
- speakerin this--in this second
- speakerconversation.
- speakerAnd I wanted us now to focus,
- speakeras you have been a leader so
- speakermuch in addressing
- speakerinjustice in church and society, and
- speakerone area that the
- speakerPC(USA)
- speakerand its predecessor churches
- speakerstruggled with for a long while
- speakeris inclusion of our
- speakergay, lesbian,
- speakerbisexual, transgender siblings.
- speakerAnd from
- speakerthe early seventies all
- speakerthe way to--into well
- speakerinto the 21st century.
- speakerAnd you were a staff leader
- speakerin---in
- speakerthose debates then and then Stated
- speakerClerk.
- speakerSo you were in the director
- speakerof World Mission, so you were in
- speakerthe--in the staff leadership and
- speakerthen Stated Clerk afterwards.
- speakerTell us about that.
- speakerYour perspective
- speakerand insights from
- speakerthat evolution of
- speakerseeing the
- speakerPresbyterian Church, its predecessor
- speakerchurches, PC(USA),
- speaker20th century into the 21st
- speakercentury, the debates around
- speakerthe full inclusion of our LGBTQIA
- speakersiblings
- speakeraround ordination standards.
- speakerOkay.
- speakerWell, let me step one step back
- speakerwith that.
- speakerOne of the things I think I
- speakermentioned yesterday was the fact
- speakerthat part of what the unique
- speakerdynamic of Presbyterianism in this
- speakercountry is. It's a story
- speakerof division, union,
- speakerreunion, division,
- speakerreunion.
- speakerAnd if you go back to
- speakerslavery, the Civil War,
- speakerthe--the modernist-fundamentalist
- speakercontroversy, the
- speakermovements in--in
- speakerother times in our history,
- speakerthat focus--the
- speakerissues have been different.
- speakerThe women's ordination issue was
- speakeranother occasion where that took
- speakerplace.
- speakerAll of those things were part
- speakerof a church struggling
- speakerto find a way toward being faithful
- speakerto the tradition, but at
- speakerthe same time, grounded
- speakerin its basic commitment to
- speakerjustice, to unity, to
- speakerall those things that make for a
- speakerfaithful new[?].
- speakerAnd the good news was that
- speakerwe ended up with things like Belhar
- speakerConfession and with
- speakerthe--our own Book of Confessions.
- speakerWe had--. We were--.
- speakerWe were well grounded in [unclear].
- speakerWe weren't just dealing with
- speakerindividual positions, but
- speakerwe were dealing with something more
- speakerdeeper.
- speakerNow, the harder issue is this is
- speakerso close to people's sense
- speakerof identity and self.
- speakerI think we did the right thing as a
- speakerchurch, but I know
- speakerthat we still have wounds that are
- speakerleft of that.
- speakerAnd people who have left the church
- speakerand who will need to find
- speakertheir way back.
- speakerI hope--. I think that we have a
- speakerhistory of people finding their
- speakerway back, and I hope we will do that
- speakernow. But I also think it
- speakerwon't be at the expense of a group
- speakerlike the gay and lesbian persons
- speakeror any other, but it will be an
- speakerinclusive sense
- speakerof being a community that
- speakerinvites all to be part of this
- speakerfellowship.
- speakerAbsolutely.
- speakerAnd we're grateful,
- speakerCliff, for your advocacy and
- speakerfor your leadership
- speakerin all those efforts.
- speakerWell, and it wasn't advocacy.
- speakerOne of the hard things about this
- speakerjob was that, you know,
- speakerin one sense, you're called to be a
- speakerleader. In another sense, you're
- speakercalled to live out the policies of
- speakerthe General Assembly.
- speakerAnd particularly those early years
- speakeras Stated Clerk, I--.
- speakerBill Thompson, I guess, is the one
- speakerwho said to me.
- speakerHe said, "If you get so you're so
- speakeralienated from the positions of the
- speakerchurch that you can't see that
- speakerthey're being available[?] [unclear]
- speakertheir change." And
- speakerhe said, "If you can't do that, you
- speakerought to resign." Well, I wasn't
- speakergoing to resign.
- speakerAnd it's one of many
- speakertimes that Bill has offered some
- speakergood--some good
- speakercounsel.
- speakerAny rate, fortunately,
- speakerI think we have come to a place
- speakerthat both is more inclusive,
- speakerbut also is not
- speakerdivided on this issue anymore.
- speakerSomehow, you know, when you put the
- speakerissues before the Assembly, this one
- speakerdoesn't pop up to the top.
- speakerAnd it has been---.
- speakerIt's not just a barely made
- speaker51%, but
- speakerI think genuinely the church is
- speakermoving toward owning[?]
- speakerboth a welcome
- speakerto all people but also
- speakera sense of saying
- speakerthat we may have some ways to go,
- speakerbut we want to go together.
- speakerAbsolutely.
- speakerWell, in the final ten minutes,
- speakerwe're going to now move into
- speakeryour call when
- speakerGod called you to the voice of the
- speakerchurch to stand for--right,
- speakeryou don't run for, but to stand
- speakerfor--Stated Clerk
- speakerof the General Assembly of the
- speakerPC(USA).
- speakerWe won't finish this part; we'll
- speakerpick it up in subsequent
- speakerconversations, but now let's enter
- speakerthat piece. Let's enter that part.
- speakerSo
- speakerJim Andrews, then Stated Clerk,
- speakerdecided not to stand for another
- speakerterm, is that right?
- speakerFor Stated Clerk?
- speakerYes.
- speakerAnd so then a Stated Clerk
- speakerNomination Committee was
- speakerestablished.
- speakerAnd so,
- speakershare with us your discernment
- speakerprocess. Who are some of the folks
- speakerwho nudged you?
- speakerWho did the Holy Spirit nudge you to
- speakersay, Cliff, maybe you should put
- speakeryour hat in and apply for this
- speakerStated Clerk thing?
- speakerWell, I've said and [it's] absolute
- speakertruth, I never applied for
- speakera job in the church.
- speakerI did agree to stand
- speakerin several occasions.
- speakerBut any
- speakerrate, it was--it
- speakerwas colleagues in the faith and
- speakerin the community and then
- speakerpeople assessing me that led me
- speakerto feel that maybe these were--this
- speakerwas the call of God.
- speakerSo, you know, I've--.
- speakerAny rate, that's--it's
- speakernot a--. It's not been applying
- speakerfor a job. It's been being--people
- speakerassuming--. And in some of these, I
- speakerhad real doubts about it.
- speakerI mean, the World Alliance of
- speakerReformed Churches we talked about
- speakerand the, you know,
- speakerother--other kind of efforts
- speakerthat have taken place.
- speakerAnd so--. Well
- speakerany rate, I mean, I think
- speakerthat's--that,
- speakerto me, has been a piece
- speakerof all of this is
- speakerthat I will--I would be glad
- speakerto be called, but I would not be--I
- speakerwould not apply.
- speakerWhat were those--that
- speakerelection--? What, the 1996?
- speakerThe
- speakerGeneral Assembly in 1996 is when
- speakerI believe you were elected as Stated
- speakerClerk. Is that right?
- speaker1996?
- speakerI--. I think so, yes.
- speaker1996. What were some of the
- speakerpriorities or the hopes
- speakerthat you wanted to bring
- speakerto the church in that first
- speakerterm as Stated Clerk?
- speakerWell, several.
- speakerThat book that John Mulder suggested
- speakerI wrote--write?
- speakerI wrote it.
- speakerI had a lot of help from John and
- speakersome other people and Bill Hopper.
- speakerBut I did think we need--the
- speakerStated Clerk needs to stand
- speakerfor the church, for its
- speakerunity, for its justice work,
- speakerand [for] moving forward.
- speakerSo, you know, thanks to the grace
- speakerof God, that's still making
- speakera little impact in the life of the
- speakerchurch.
- speakerBut that has been
- speakera piece
- speakerof my work there.
- speakerWhat's the rest of that question?
- speakerYeah. Like, what were your
- speakerhopes for that first term as
- speakerStated Clerk?
- speakerWell, they obviously were
- speakerabout--focused on reconciliation and
- speakerunity. II
- speakerCorinthians 5, that we are
- speakerreconciled--we have
- speakerbeen reconciled to God
- speakerfor the ministry of reconciliation.
- speakerAnd I tried to use that
- speakeras a standard
- speakerfor doing this.
- speakerThe other one that I gave great
- speakerpriority to has been the six
- speakergreat ends of the church, and
- speakerI lifted those up. We did booklets
- speakerand pamphlets and everything else
- speakeryou can imagine.
- speakerBut those six great ends
- speakerreally do encompass, in a short,
- speakercrisp way, the
- speakerfundamental calling we have as
- speakerPresbyterian Christians.
- speakerAbsolutely. And those were so
- speakerhelpful, I have to say.
- speakerThose booklets were helpful, Cliff.
- speakerYou were the--. You were the Stated
- speakerClerk that bridged the centuries
- speakerbecause your--.
- speakerI hadn't thought of that.
- speaker[Laughs]
- speakerY2K.
- speakerLike, do you remember Y2K?
- speakerThat whole hullabaloo of the Y2K
- speakerwould--.
- speakerI do.
- speakerWe had groups
- speakercamped out outside the Presbyterian
- speakerCenter to, you know, take over when
- speakerthe end came, but it didn't make it.
- speakerWhat were some of your thoughts in
- speakermoving from the 20th century?
- speakerYou were deeply involved, deeply
- speakerin leadership in the
- speakerPC(USA), its predecessor to the
- speakerSouthern church in the
- speakerlate 20th century then moving to the
- speaker21st.
- speakerLike what was sort of the--your
- speakerfeeling or your casting vision,
- speakerfears of, you know,
- speakerwhat was sort of the unfinished
- speakerbusiness of Presbyterianism
- speakerfrom the 20th century and then
- speakermoving into the 21st century from
- speakeryour position as Stated Clerk?
- speakerThat first term as Stated Clerk?
- speakerWell.
- speakerWhere do we start?
- speakerIn many ways, part of why I
- speakerhad not continued in--as Stated
- speakerClerk at this point.
- speakerOne is, I have done
- speakerfull term and am
- speakernot in a situation of
- speakerhealth and life that would allow me to
- speakercontinue.
- speakerBut more than that,
- speakerit's--we need to be
- speakerin a mode of
- speakertransition from a rec--from
- speakera regular basis.
- speakerWe don't need people that are not
- speakerthere for a long time, but we don't
- speakerreally need people to stay as a
- speakerbirthright kind of--to--and there
- speakerwere.
- speakerSo I
- speakerhave supported every one of my
- speakersuccessors and think the church
- speakerhas done well with all of them.
- speakerAnd I
- speakerwill support them in any way I can
- speakerand will stay out of their hair for
- speakerother reasons.
- speakerThere you go.
- speakerWell, we have--. We have four more
- speakerminutes, and I wanted to ask you
- speakerthis part: in your first
- speakerterm as Stated Clerk, you led
- speakera delegation from the PC(USA)
- speakerto visit the
- speakerHoly Father,
- speakerthen Pope John Paul II.
- speakerCan you share with us about that
- speakerexperience of going to the Vatican
- speakerand meeting Pope John Paul II and
- speakeraddressing in a private audience
- speakerwith him?
- speakerWell, I went--. I did that three or
- speakerfour times, but part
- speakerof it, a couple of those, are
- speakerin--from the World Communion of
- speakerReformed Churches.
- speakerWe are--.
- speakerThe Vatican--.
- speakerThe counterpart to the Vatican in
- speakerthe Protestant world is the World
- speakerCommunion of Reformed Churches.
- speakerIt's not quite the same thing,
- speakerobviously, but that has been
- speakerthe connection. And so we have
- speakerworked hard to stay--keep the
- speakergood, reformed
- speakerecumenical
- speakerand traditions alive
- speakerin--in the Vatican.
- speakerVatican had offered
- speakeran invitation to the churches
- speakerthat they would
- speakercomment on
- speakerhow they--how
- speakerthose of us in the reformed
- speakertradition might
- speakersee the
- speakersuccessor to Peter as
- speakera sign of hope
- speakerfor the broader church.
- speakerWe took that seriously.
- speakerWe asked them to take that
- speakerseriously, so we had this group.
- speakerWe went to the Vatican.
- speakerWe had some others with the World
- speakerCommunion of Reformed Churches.
- speakerBut both the Catholic
- speakerChurch and the Presbyterian Church
- speakerbelieve there's one church, and
- speakerwe're both part of it.
- speakerWe--. During our time here, we've
- speakermade officially the--the shared
- speakerrecognition
- speakerof baptism with one another.
- speakerWe have, in other words,
- speakerlooked at the
- speakerBEM--the "Baptism, Eucharist, and
- speakerMinistry." A number
- speakerof signs that say that
- speakerwe are ultimately--even if
- speakerwe can't call each other
- speakerchurch in quite that way--we
- speakercan't run[?] the Reformed Church,
- speakerbut they can.
- speakerBut that there is a spirit that
- speakerdoesn't want to further
- speakerdivision but wants to further unity.
- speakerAnd given that the--you
- speakerknow, half the people of the world
- speakeralmost, are Catholic--we
- speakerneed to keep in those relationships
- speakerstrong.
- speakerIndeed. And that mutual recognition
- speakerof baptism agreement took
- speakerfive hundred years. Is that right?
- speakerFive hundred, five centuries to
- speakerarrive at an agreement--
- speakerYes.
- speaker--on baptism.
- speakerSo.
- speakerAnd
- speakerfor most of our people, that seemed
- speakerlike a given. I mean, nobody--.
- speakerBut, you know, fifty,
- speakersixty years ago, if you were
- speakerin a reformed church and moved to a
- speakerPresbyterian area, you had to be
- speakerbaptized again.
- speakerAnd that just didn't
- speakermake no sense.
- speakerAnd so that--.
- speakerThis was, in most cases,
- speakerpeople had already ignored the
- speaker[unclear] advice that did not
- speakerwelcome Catholics, but that
- speakermove with the practical level
- speakerof transition between Catholic
- speakerand Protestant was one
- speakerthing that happened during those
- speakeryears.
- speakerAmen. And with that, we're going to
- speakerend this, Cliff.
- speakerI'm going to turn off the recording.