Cliff Kirkpatrick oral history, 2023.

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speaker
Well good morning. This is an oral
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history project of the Presbyterian
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Historical Society.
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We're pleased to be with Stated
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Clerk Emeritus, the Reverend Doctor
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Clifton Kirkpatrick.
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Cliff, good morning.
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Good morning, Neal, and good morning
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friends.
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Cliff, this is a
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project for us to capture
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history that is
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part of our Presbyterian Church
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(U.S.A.) family, that you have been
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a part of, that you helped to
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shape.
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And you were a leader
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in in so many ways
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in this--.
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I was delighted to see you take this
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initiative. And that--. You know,
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everybody thinks the things they've
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been involved in is important, but
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there have been some incredible
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changes and developments and
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good signs in this
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last couple hundred years of
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Presbyterian life in this country.
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And I've had the
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privilege of sharing a part of that
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as Stated Clerk and
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look forward to this conversation.
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Indeed.
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Indeed. And in these series
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of conversations as we're going
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to be looking at pre-1983
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reunion, the events
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of the reunion,
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your
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leadership with Presbyterian
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World Mission,
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your service as Stated Clerk,
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your involvement and leadership in
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the ecumenical movement--both
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on the national scene, the
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National Council of Churches, World
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Council, World Alliance--so
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many places and so many
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pivotal events.
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And so we're eager, and I'm eager
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to hear your
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thoughts and your recollections of
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all of those, all of those decades
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in this first--.
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Yeah?
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Yeah, this first one here is, I
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think, it's going to be kind of a
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recovering of the--of
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the early years of the things
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that formed me.
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And then we'll get into those
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things that formed the church and
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formed the ecumenical movement, and
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it should be a rich hour.
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That's right. That's right.
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So in this first hour, as you-- As
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you said, in this first hour we're
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going to focus our attention
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on what
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shaped you as an ecumenist.
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And so, Cliff, can you
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share about
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the--your early growing
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up years? Not necessarily your
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birth, but
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the
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formation of Clifton Kirkpatrick
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as a ecumenist [in] seminary
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days or after--
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Well, how about before seminary days?
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Okay.
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I've often been struck when people
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ask, "Well, how did you get into
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this?" Well, in many ways I
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ask that question myself.
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And it's core.
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I'm here because
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God wants me here.
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And I think that is
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a critical dimension that
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we be called into this work.
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My--. My own background--.
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Interestingly
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enough, my mother told
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me only a little bit before
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she died but said that they
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had been so eager to have a child
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and had not been able to do so.
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She prayed to God that if only
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they would give him--if only would give
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them a child
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he would dedi--she would dedicate
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that child to the foreign missions.
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Well, I never thought anything about
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all of that.
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But then, more recently, you look
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back and say, you know, people
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were watching you all the way along.
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And I grew up
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in a church in Memphis,
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Tennessee, a church
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that in many ways that went [a]
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different path than our
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denomination, but
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was a church that had
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ministers and lay people
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that couldn't get enough of
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supporting young people
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and encouraging that
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work.
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I got--.
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Early on, I got
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smitten by the ecumenical
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movement and by the fact that we are
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one in Christ and therefore called
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to live a different kind of way.
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All of those things were a part
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of my growing up, and
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I'm grateful to have had this--this
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place in the church.
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Amazing. Amazing.
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And do you remember any particular
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figures, any particular
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preachers or
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speakers, that you
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remember impacted you
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in some way, whether positively or
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negatively?
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Well positively, there were three
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people, I think, [that] particularly
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stand out from that
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period for me. One
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was Phil Ashy.
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Phil isn't even longer living,
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but
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is--was an associate pastor.
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And he would take us young people,
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one or two
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at a time,
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at early in the morning.
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Anybody who could get me up early in
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the morning has to--something worth
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while. But we would--.
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We would regularly
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talk and share with one another.
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He had an associate at that
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church in Memphis, Tennessee,
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[unclear], and they continued that
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sort of tradition.
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So those were--.
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Those were particular
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people. There also was an incredible
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lay program.
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Roland Wilson, was--handled
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that youth program.
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Any rate, there was an
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intentionality about young
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people in the church, young people
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in the ministry, that I
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experienced, and I think many would
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hope to do[?].
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The other side of that is the
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negative side, I guess.
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I-- One
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of the dynamics of growing up in
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Memphis, Tennessee in that church
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was I came home from my freshman
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year at Davidson College only
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to find elders locked arms
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to keep African-Americans out of the
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church. That was
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stunning to me and greatly
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harmful.
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And so there was a struggle there.
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I ended up with
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the General Assembly, acting as they
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should, moving the Assembly out
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from that location. It--it's
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challenged me to take
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a second look and to
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be committed to a church that is
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inclusive, a church that
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cares about the gospel for all
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people.
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And so that kind of turmoil that
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has been there all these eighty
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years between
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the--between
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biblical preaching and justice
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for people, particularly
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of other races and culture.
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And I--I'm
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glad our church has weathered those
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storms and
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continues to
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keep those commitments alive.
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Absolutely.
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No, absolutely.
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Thanks be to God that that has been
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the case, as you
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experiencing that in your--in
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your early years certainly
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shaped you to be one committed to
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justice.
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The church that you
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belonged to in Memphis, was that in
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the Northern stream or the Southern
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stream of the Presbyterian Church?
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Well, in those days, if it was the
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ch-- It was the Southern stream.
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Mm-hm.
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And, you know, that changed,
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obviously, at reunion, but
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reunion opened the door for
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much of that church to leave the
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denomination.
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Some stayed, but
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they--. I--. I
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stayed, so--
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You know, it was an interesting.
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One of the things that happened
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during that time is there was
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a man by the name of Stephen Haynes
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who wrote a book called The Last
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Segregated Hour, and he
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studied the whole
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movement--of the role of students,
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the role of the church--in the--in
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working for justice that
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really shaped what
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we came to understand as
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the call of the gospel to
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respond to all people.
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Mm-hm. Yeah. Wow.
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What was your experience like at
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Davidson College, our--one
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of our Presbyterian-related
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colleges? What was that like during
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this--the Civil Rights movement
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and the modern ecumenical
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movement? You're a young man.
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You're a college student at
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Davidson. What was that like?
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Well, I was a--I was not
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a long term one.
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I was eager to get--to get married.
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And
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my now wife of over fifty years was
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eager, too, at that point.
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And so we
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got married early. We--. You
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had to have a special license from
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the state of Tennessee to
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marry in early years.
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I wouldn't advise that to young
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people nowadays, but I'm glad
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it happened to me. And, yeah,
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Davidson College was part
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of that theme[?]. And
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they--. I'm not sure that
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they focused very much on
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ministry formation, but
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they did--they
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did remind people that
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we are there because God is with us.
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And
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so, at any rate, yes,
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that was a shortened stay, but we
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stayed and did well. And then I
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left there and went to Yale Divinity
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School where I really opened my eyes
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to the ecumenical movement.
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And was probably the most formative
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ecumenical experience for
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me.
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Can you tell us about that? About your
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years at--at Yale Divinity
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School.
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So going from Davidson College to
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Yale Divinity School.
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Tell us--.
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Well,
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yeah, I was nervous about it,
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and--but
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we were welcomed.
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I think [in] many ways the most
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helpful study what was doing in what
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we now call field education.
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And that was--.
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That
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was a formative piece of that.
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Each week we'd go spend a
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day with a family in the church,
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and that was a useful
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and helpful measure[?].
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Mm-hm. So going from Davidson
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to Yale Divinity School,
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you didn't go to any of the
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Presbyterian
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seminaries, whether it be Union or
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Princeton or
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Columbia.
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What was that experience like?
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Well, I went and checked those.
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I had gotten between--. After
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the time I had become
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a candidate for the ministry,
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I--the--the
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passion for the ecumenical movement
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developed in me, and
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that was a piece of it.
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My presbytery thought that was a
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good move for a time.
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And so we decided
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that, along with the presbytery,
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that we would
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work on
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carrying out some of those
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ecumenical ventures.
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I came around later and went and did
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a D. Min. at McCormick and tried to
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up my credentials a little bit at
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the Presbyterian arena.
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But I think it's fairly obvious that
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[the] Presbyterian Church
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really shaped my life and
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shaped the life of a
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whole lot of people, good number
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of whom were Presbyterians
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at that point at Yale Divinity
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School.
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely. Good Presbyterians.
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Good Presbyterians that
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have come out of Yale Divinity,
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including yourself.
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Any particular professors
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at Yale Divinity who were
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very formative for you?
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I'm sure all of them were, but like,
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were there particular ones who
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continue that shaping and forming
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of Clifton Kirkpatrick as
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ecumenist?
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Well, Will Terry was a
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part-time chaplain and part-time
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teacher, and
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I think he was very strong with the
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many maintaining the
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ecumenical and Presbyterian kind
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of venture.
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And so I think he would be one.
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Arthur Link was a historian,
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and I got fascinated with American
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church history at that point and
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took an inordinate number of his
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courses.
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And that would be another source
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of inspiration to me.
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Mm-hm. Okay.
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Arthur Link and William Terry, okay.
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Now, Cliff, during this--.
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During your time at Yale Divinity,
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you're under your care in your
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presbytery.
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Did you sense a call to
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be a, well, to
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be an ecumenist, to
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be a pastor, to be a professor?
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What was that sort of conversation
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you were having with your presbytery
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about your sense of call
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at the time as you were
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finishing up Yale Divinity School?
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Well, presbytery was a big part
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of that. I mean, they--they didn't
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normally offer that, but they
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had seen me--. Something's
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ringing here [cell phone ringing].
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Are you there?
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Yes, I'm here.
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I'm here.
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Try to close this down here.
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It looked like there's maybe
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there's a call coming in.
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[Pause] Okay. Excuse me.
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No worries.
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Yes.
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Yes, I had gotten involved with
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children and young people
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in trouble, [a] program in
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Statesville not far from Davidson.
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I was involved
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in the Presbyterian Fellowship--was
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kind of eager there.
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And then felt that it was important
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to--. At that time in history
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with a lot of focus on
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Union Seminary, Yale Divinity
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School, and others that
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Davidson offered people
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to--some of that conversation more
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broadly ecumenical, and
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it ended up working.
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They invited me
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in, and three
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and a half--three years later, I
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came out.
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Yes, there you go.
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And so you were ordained.
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So you finished Yale Divinity,
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and you got ordained.
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Do you remember which--the name of
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the presbytery that you were
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ordained?
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Presbytery of Northeast Texas.
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Northeast Texas, okay.
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So Presbytery of Northeast Texas.
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You got ordained, and you were
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ordained to
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and installed into what position,
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Cliff?
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To be the Associate Director
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of the Greater Dallas
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Council of Churches.
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Okay.
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Greater Dallas Council of Churches.
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They later
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became the Canon--Communion
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of churches, but that has--that's
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not substantive.
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Yeah.
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Can you tell us now about the--now
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the years in Texas?
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Because I understand that you were
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part of the Greater Dallas Council
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of Churches and then another Council
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of Churches as well.
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Is that right?
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Well, two[?]. I was with, first, was
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the Greater Dallas Council of
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Churches where I served for about a
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year and a half.
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Following that, while I was there,
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the people were looking
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for a director for the Fort Worth
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Council of Churches, which is right
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next door--began
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searching for a new director.
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And they interviewed here,
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there, and yon, and I
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got, I think by the grace of God,
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they ended up asking
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me to serve and assume that
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position.
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I was there for three, three and a
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half years. And then the next
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eight years, which where my main
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involvement with Texas was
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with the
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Houston Metropolitan Ministries. And I served
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in a very
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substantial agency of
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both evangelism and social
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service and
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working for--to
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make a difference in terms of
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justice in Texas, which
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is often[?] a challenge.
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But at any rate, we
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did those things
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and had a similar surprising
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experience eight years ago--eight
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years after that--when
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I was asked to consider being
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the position of Director of
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Worldwide Ministries.
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That one
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really was a surprise to me.
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I still remember, with a colleague,
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talking one day about what we needed
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to do to help get good people that
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would be signing up for
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the role of State Clerk. And
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any rate, I didn't
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intend that to be me, but
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it did. And
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again that--.
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We picked up, moved to
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Louisville and
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actually
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served in Louisville--. We were checking the other day
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and were at least in Louisville
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thirty years.
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And that's really the--.
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But not all of that in Texas because
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after our first segment
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in Texas, the church
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then moved to Atlanta
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and New York, and at any rate,
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[there were] a variety
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of movements
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to and fro that
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led me to work with the--with
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the mission arm of the church
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and another with its--its
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polity situation.
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And those things happened to come at
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just the right time for me, and I
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hope for the church.
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God's providence really
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was in the right time in the right
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place and called you in those--the
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right times that were beneficial
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to the church in so many ways.
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And we will get to that part when
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you're called to
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be the Director of World Mission.
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Let's focus on
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the Council of Churches in
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Texas--the three that you were a
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part of: the Greater
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Dallas, the Fort Worth, and
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the Houston Metropolitan
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Council.
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What were some of the challenges
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that you faced in those--in
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those Councils of Churches in Texas?
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They weren't called Councils of
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Churches, and that was a part of the
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[unclear] people's
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hesitation about the--the
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World Council of Churches, National
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Council, and whether there's alleged
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communist influence, none
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of which had substance to it a lot
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of that, so it became Conferences
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of Churches and the like.
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But nevertheless, the reality
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of seeking Christian unity, working
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for justice, bridging barriers
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was very much a
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part of the work and the ministry
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there and
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eight years in Texas.
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But then the larger group
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in Atlanta is, I
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think, what we'll come to in a
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little while.
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Yes.
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Okay. What years were you in
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Texas, Cliff?
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You remember?
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19--.
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I think 1981.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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So the eighties, okay.
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And during that--.
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During that period, were there
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particular--. Were
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those Conference of Churches
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in Texas, then, focused
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on Christian unity and
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justice work
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in Texas
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or--?
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Yes, but there were several
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variants of what took place
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there. The Texas Conference
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of Churches was really focused on
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Christian unity and was
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less--I mean, was also involved in
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restorative[?]
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justice. You have to do that in
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Texas, but they
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were--they were the group that was
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dealing with faith in order concerns
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and really
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invited others in, would have an
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annual conference
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of people that are engaged in the
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ecumenical movement, and a lot of
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that. The Metropolitan
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Ministries side was really the
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type[?] that was
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the--. Metropolitan Ministries
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was more the justice
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side of the street.
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And the
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other was to--. [Pause] Excuse me. What--.
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[Unclear]
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Yeah. So faith in order--.
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Faith in order issues
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and then the Metropolitan--.
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And the Metropolitan was, yes, community ministry like that.
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And then justice-seeking,
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a bit[?] of advocacy with
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a Texas impact at the state capital.
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And so we had those three streams
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of unity, justice,
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and partnership.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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Who was the President of the United
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States at that time, do you recall,
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in your years in Texas?
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Richard Nixon.
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There you go.
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Okay. So the seventies.
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Yes, the seventies.
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There you go.
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Well, that was the end.
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He had ran for--. Nixon was coming
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in as I was going out, but yes..
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Okay [laughs]. Yeah.
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And were there times where
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you had to go to
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the state capital or even to
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Washington, D.C.
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to be a part of any
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particular demonstrations,
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any hearings,
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any protests, anything like that,
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do you recall?
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Yes. There were plenty of all those
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opportunities.
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The Texas Impact Organization
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was really the organized expression
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on that and would
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really organize well in
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terms of--in
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terms of the issues and the
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substance of work for
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justice.
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The--. Now let's see.
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What kind of issues do you recall
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that were a part of the Texas impact
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at the time?
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Well, the one that reached across
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the line, and it was interesting.
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It had an impact nobody would've
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ever have imagined.
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And that was an effort to ship a
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boatload of wheat
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from the Texas farms to--to
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Vietnam.
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And that was absolutely a
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difficult struggle, but it also
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enabled people
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that had been really on the fence
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about the ecumenical movement and
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all these charges and so forth
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that increasingly the community came
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of all kind--ecumenical and evangelical--came
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together for that shipment of wheat
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to Vietnam.
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And there were relationships built
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in that process that
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impact us still there today.
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That's incredible.
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Yeah, a humanitarian
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cause already there that
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you were a part of,
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not withstanding a war that--that
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divided the country
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in so many ways.
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And there you were
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working--.
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Well--. Yeah. And the s--the story
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of
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Texas and American Presbyterianism
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is, obviously, one of reunion
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and division. Reunion and division.
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We do it--. We exhaust ourselves
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with all these divisions, but
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we release[?] histories much of the
speaker
time, come back together and
speaker
the come back together gene[?] is one
speaker
I hope we're nurturing right now.
speaker
Now, Cliff, during that--during that
speaker
time in Texas before
speaker
you went to Atlanta, but there you
speaker
are in Texas.
speaker
Were you already engaged in General
speaker
Assemblies?
speaker
Were you attending General
speaker
Assemblies? Were you connecting
speaker
with
speaker
the Presbyterian Church at
speaker
the national level even as you were
speaker
in Texas?
speaker
Well, yeah, the--the
speaker
shipment of wheat's a good example
speaker
of that. I mean, that was
speaker
a Church World Service.
speaker
It was involved
speaker
with the World Council of Churches.
speaker
It was involved with the Texas
speaker
Conference of Churches.
speaker
I mean, yes, it was a clear
speaker
demonstration that
speaker
we needed each other in this
speaker
ministry. And that was
speaker
a pivotal turning point issue
speaker
when we were there, and that
speaker
was carried over to other groups,
speaker
beginning with the Metropolitan
speaker
Ministry side. We
speaker
moved much more so in terms of
speaker
immigrant, refugees, Meals
speaker
on Wheels, conferences
speaker
on ecumenism.
speaker
I mean, it was at--.
speaker
That Metropolitan Ministries covered
speaker
a wide swath, and then there were
speaker
very particular things for
speaker
the--the justice
speaker
ministries and for some
speaker
of the training opportunities.
speaker
Yeah. Okay.
speaker
Yeah.
speaker
The--. So in that--in
speaker
that period, which was in the
speaker
seventies or
speaker
mid to late seventies as
speaker
you were winding down
speaker
in those years in
speaker
Texas.
speaker
Who were some of the key figures?
speaker
Can you recall who were
speaker
some of the key figures in
speaker
the Presbyterian Church,
speaker
in the World Council,
speaker
in other spaces that you recall
speaker
working with and really impacted
speaker
you and
speaker
was continuing to shape your
speaker
formation as an ecumenical leader?
speaker
Who were those people?
speaker
Well, there were--. There were the whole
speaker
group of people that were involved
speaker
in the movement toward
speaker
reunion, and they were incredibly
speaker
gifted people, gracious to each
speaker
other, non-confrontation[al].
speaker
And so much of that history had been
speaker
confrontation between the church
speaker
north and south and the like.
speaker
But people like Jim Costen, his
speaker
wife Melva,
speaker
both of them were leaders in the--in
speaker
this ecumenical movement and
speaker
were supporters particularly in the,
speaker
quote, Northern church that
speaker
gave birth to the
speaker
reunion.
speaker
There's some similar rows of people
speaker
in the Southern church.
speaker
And
speaker
you've got folks like Sara
speaker
B. Mosley, who was one of the early
speaker
women ministers in the PCUS
speaker
and was moderator of that in--during
speaker
the years in the period that
speaker
we hadn't had Presbyterian reunion.
speaker
So we had a number of
speaker
those people. And we had
speaker
some others, some real unusual
speaker
people.
speaker
One of the most unusual people is
speaker
one named Marj Carpenter.
speaker
There's a lot of--. There's a lot of
speaker
things about doing things decently
speaker
and in order.
speaker
Marj had nothing greater than no appreciation
speaker
for that theory, but she
speaker
passionately loved the church
speaker
and loved its union.
speaker
And if--.
speaker
And when she
speaker
got--. When she got through with
speaker
you, you were a believer.
speaker
So she was--.
speaker
She was the other side of
speaker
that equation of people
speaker
that are actively involved in
speaker
bringing together the church.
speaker
God bless the memories of
speaker
our beloved Marj Carpenter and
speaker
Sara Bernice Mosely and Jim
speaker
Costen.
speaker
I remember all three, and
speaker
they are saints.
speaker
Yeah. They are wonderful folks.
speaker
I did a list of--.
speaker
When I was thinking about what I was
speaker
going to do, I did a list of the top
speaker
ten. Can I tell you who they are on
speaker
mine?
speaker
Sure. Yes, absolutely.
speaker
And they are, you know--.
speaker
Any rate,
speaker
these are not necessarily the usual
speaker
group, but just as I was sitting
speaker
down the other night at home.
speaker
Who would I name there?
speaker
And I came up with a list.
speaker
Jim and Melva Costen was one.
speaker
Sara B. Mosely was
speaker
another.
speaker
Another couple of colleagues of mine
speaker
there: Syngman Rhee an incredible
speaker
gift to the Korean Church and the
speaker
PC(USA).
speaker
Loyda Aja was my administrative
speaker
officer and did incredible work
speaker
for us there.
speaker
A person that I've always
speaker
admired and will never forget is
speaker
Ben Weir.
speaker
It was during my time that Ben was
speaker
being held captive.
speaker
But at the same time, Ben was making
speaker
friends and
speaker
inherited some dialog even in his
speaker
jail cell in there.
speaker
And we had incredible
speaker
gift--very gifted
speaker
seminary leadership.
speaker
Even though I didn't make it there
speaker
the first time, I came around this
speaker
time and got a degree
speaker
from McCormick.
speaker
And, oh, what
speaker
else? I mean, those are some of the
speaker
kind of people--. That D. Min.
speaker
was a good effort for me.
speaker
I mean, it was able to enter at
speaker
a different level of dialog with
speaker
people of, kind of, struck
speaker
building a curriculum together
speaker
with faculty rather than assuming
speaker
that somebody had to, say, give me
speaker
the curriculum, and I just taught
speaker
it. And so that was--.
speaker
That was a good experience for
speaker
me.
speaker
I'm wandering, but those are some of
speaker
the people that meant something to
speaker
me.
speaker
Saints of the--. Saints of the
speaker
church. And Loyda, by the way, I
speaker
think Loyda celebrated her birthday
speaker
recently and an anniversary with
speaker
Tony. So Loyda and
speaker
Tony Aja, yes.
speaker
And Syngman Rhee, of course, blessed
speaker
memory, and we'll be talking about
speaker
Syngman later in a--in a subsequent
speaker
conversation because your
speaker
work with World mission with Syngman
speaker
and of course our beloved Ben Weir,
speaker
as well, during
speaker
this period, the late, late
speaker
seventies, early eighties.
speaker
But people--. People like you were
speaker
on that list, too.
speaker
[Laughs] I wasn't looking for that,
speaker
but thank you for it.
speaker
I know you weren't, but you should.
speaker
I mean, you were in the--.
speaker
You were in that realm of
speaker
moderators, and all of that.
speaker
And you, more than
speaker
that, are bringing
speaker
a new generation into this.
speaker
And we're not--.
speaker
We need more not lesser ecumenist
speaker
and
speaker
a younger age.
speaker
And you're now getting
speaker
into middle age, so at any rate.
speaker
But you bring--you have
speaker
brought a lot of gifts to the
speaker
church.
speaker
We've known each other a long while,
speaker
Cliff, almost thirty years, so
speaker
it's--. Yeah, my white
speaker
hair is showing as well.
speaker
But so--.
speaker
And so there you are in the
speaker
Conference of Churches in Texas.
speaker
You've serve there now Greater
speaker
Dallas, Fort Worth, Houston, and
speaker
so you get a call
speaker
or you get wind
speaker
of certain
speaker
work in the World
speaker
Missions of Presbyterian Church.
speaker
Who was the one that called you,
speaker
Cliff? Or who was the one that said,
speaker
"We'd like to have a conversation
speaker
with you about joining the national
speaker
staff of Presbyterian Church?"
speaker
Well, the first one was really a
speaker
strange one. The person that
speaker
called--.
speaker
We were sitting one day in a meeting
speaker
of what's called the Budget Work Group.
speaker
That group is never a source of
speaker
inspiration, but is often a source
speaker
of, you know, passion about
speaker
the particular ministries and causes
speaker
and all of that stuff.
speaker
But can be deadly, dull.
speaker
But I remember John Bartholomew,
speaker
who--.
speaker
John was the Synod Executive
speaker
in the Synod of South
speaker
Atlantic.
speaker
John came over to me and said,
speaker
"You're not going to miss anything
speaker
if you slipped out of this meeting
speaker
on the Budget Work Group," and he
speaker
was right.
speaker
"Because a few of us
speaker
have gotten together and decided we
speaker
want to talk to you about being
speaker
Stated Clerk."
speaker
And I was astounded because
speaker
I never--particularly was
speaker
astounded at
speaker
the
speaker
polity side of this.
speaker
But she said, "You know,
speaker
people were doing[?] the same
speaker
thing." You know, they believed
speaker
I had a sense of the
speaker
gifts and meaning of the polity, but
speaker
that I also would understand
speaker
the role of the Stated Clerk
speaker
that really is a chief ecclesial
speaker
officer that builds
speaker
up the church, that strengthens its
speaker
witness, that upholds its teaching.
speaker
And that--that needed
speaker
people that could--.
speaker
They thought I had
speaker
some meet--capacity to
speaker
meet.
speaker
I let that go, didn't go anywhere,
speaker
and then I get a letter from the
speaker
Nominating Committee for the Stated
speaker
Clerk.
speaker
And any rate,
speaker
one thing led to another I didn't
speaker
expect, and I
speaker
was asked to meet the Committee.
speaker
It was a--. There was a concern that
speaker
they did not want to be either, kind
speaker
of, ecclesiastical [unclear]
speaker
evaded the person that didn't do
speaker
it[?].
speaker
They did not want to be a
speaker
rigidly republican
speaker
type or rigidly justice
speaker
type, but to mold those together.
speaker
And I took
speaker
that on and hope that was the right
speaker
thing.
speaker
We also--. During
speaker
that time, I, well, I was
speaker
followed by Gradye Parsons and
speaker
then, more recently, by
speaker
J. Herbert Nelson.
speaker
And there had been a history of
speaker
people in that position
speaker
that made a difference. You go back
speaker
to, you know, people
speaker
at the--.
speaker
That--that have had a role in
speaker
that--the [unclear, pause].
speaker
Yeah. The--the Office
speaker
of Stated Clerk certainly has
speaker
evolved, right? Has evolved
speaker
all these decades from
speaker
Eugene Carson Blake
speaker
to William Thompson,
speaker
Jim Andrews,
speaker
yourself, Gradye--Gradye
speaker
Parsons, J.
speaker
Herbert Nelson.
speaker
As you were
speaker
growing up in the Southern church,
speaker
and you were
speaker
moving from Texas and
speaker
all of your work in the Councils
speaker
of Churches in Texas, and
speaker
then you were then called
speaker
to head up
speaker
to serve as Director of World
speaker
Mission--. Is that right? Director
speaker
of Worldwide Ministries?
speaker
Yes.
speaker
Yes, they kept changing the name
speaker
every six months, but yes.
speaker
[Laughs] Yes, that's characteristic of us
speaker
Presbyterians. Changing the names,
speaker
changing the letterhead.
speaker
Who was the--. Who was the Stated
speaker
Clerk at the time when you went to
speaker
join--to lead the Worldwide
speaker
Ministry's effort? Was it
speaker
Jim Andrews or--?
speaker
Well, it was a joint effort
speaker
by Jim Andrews and Bill Thompson,
speaker
and they were
speaker
Co-Stated Clerks.
speaker
And then they ran against each
speaker
other, and in the end, they
speaker
elected someone else.
speaker
But the--.
speaker
But no, it was a joint
speaker
effort during those early years.
speaker
So you were called in to
speaker
lead the Worldwide Ministries
speaker
Area.
speaker
What was that like to
speaker
now move from Texas
speaker
and the Councils of Churches,
speaker
the Conference of Churches, in Texas
speaker
to go to Atlanta
speaker
and to lead the Worldwide
speaker
Ministries or World
speaker
Ministries--World Mission
speaker
of the Presbyterian Church?
speaker
What was that like for you?
speaker
Well, it was--. It was different,
speaker
I think, than some--or
speaker
you--may think.
speaker
In many ways, the reason
speaker
I was asked and others that did that
speaker
was that in so many
speaker
ways other--the people had decided
speaker
on one
speaker
side or on the other and contrary
speaker
to each other. The one thing that
speaker
existed well before reunion
speaker
was a common effort in world
speaker
mission.
speaker
We had basically put together
speaker
the two streams of Worldwide
speaker
Ministries and COEMAR, which was
speaker
the--the form of that in the
speaker
Northern church.
speaker
And so we had lived out the
speaker
new structure before it ever came
speaker
about.
speaker
And so that was a huge gift
speaker
and to the consternation
speaker
of some. But I think realistically
speaker
it was that reality
speaker
that led people--plus a sense
speaker
of concern for unity and justice
speaker
and all those things, but
speaker
that--the
speaker
fact that there was a lived reality
speaker
already out there, of parts
speaker
of the church structure working well
speaker
together was certainly very
speaker
helpful.
speaker
Did that move to--to
speaker
live out that integrated
speaker
structure--the polity
speaker
structure of missions and
speaker
in missions--did that predate your
speaker
arrival or
speaker
did you put that in place when you
speaker
became director?
speaker
No, it preceded me in a way.
speaker
But it was a--.
speaker
The--.
speaker
Repeat the question, if you would.
speaker
Yeah, the--.
speaker
You were talking about the
speaker
structure of World Mission
speaker
and COEMAR in the Northern
speaker
church.
speaker
It was already being a lived reality
speaker
of the--of
speaker
the polity structures
speaker
even before reunion, so there was
speaker
something that the chur--.
speaker
That was--. That as well is what
speaker
I was saying was what aided
speaker
reunion out of this.
speaker
I mean, and COEMAR did
speaker
a lot of work of connecting
speaker
Christian unity with
speaker
Christian mission and Christian
speaker
direction, and so, no,
speaker
I think the preparation work in--in
speaker
all
speaker
of those areas made
speaker
a real difference.
speaker
Okay.
speaker
Do you recall some
speaker
key colleagues, some names,
speaker
during that period before
speaker
the 1983 reunion
speaker
that were pivotal
speaker
in the mission
speaker
work that you were leading?
speaker
Yeah, well, some of them we talked
speaker
about like people like Syngman and
speaker
so forth.
speaker
But they--.
speaker
What about some key events?
speaker
Were there are some key events, key
speaker
conferences?
speaker
Yes.
speaker
Can we take a break?
speaker
Sure. Let's take a break.
speaker
Okay.
speaker
Thank you.
speaker
Thank you, gentlemen.
speaker
Okay, Cliff, so on the years
speaker
leading up to reunion,
speaker
you are--so we find
speaker
you as--Director of World
speaker
Mission or Director of Worldwide
speaker
Ministries
speaker
in Atlanta, the Southern church
speaker
headquarters in Atlanta.
speaker
What were those conversations like?
speaker
Those meetings that were leading
speaker
up to reunion 1983?
speaker
Well, you were on the edge of some
speaker
of those too, but it was--.
speaker
There
speaker
was--. There was
speaker
an excitement generally about the
speaker
reunion, but some hesitation
speaker
particularly among racial, ethnic,
speaker
and women constituency, that
speaker
thought that there had been much
speaker
more progress made in the Northern
speaker
strain than in the Southern.
speaker
And I think they're right on that.
speaker
But the question
speaker
was, therefore, you know, do you
speaker
go with one route or the other?
speaker
I think they basically decided
speaker
the COEMAR model
speaker
would--and even the people at
speaker
COEMAR--wouldn't preserve
speaker
the broader church with
speaker
differing kind of centers.
speaker
So they--.
speaker
I guess they felt I was not damaging
speaker
to their cause as they
speaker
people--identified people in the
speaker
current structure and the new one.
speaker
And I
speaker
was grateful for it. I was--.
speaker
We were stronger for
speaker
the incredible group of area
speaker
staff from Africa, Asia,
speaker
Latin America, wherever
speaker
that were
speaker
the liaisons from the General
speaker
Assembly.
speaker
And they were key for much of this
speaker
good, good stuff that's happened.
speaker
Yes.
speaker
So now--. Let's go now in
speaker
our final twenty
speaker
minutes, or less than twenty minutes,
speaker
in this conversation now
speaker
to Atlanta, to
speaker
that pivotal
speaker
historic reunion
speaker
General Assembly: 1983
speaker
Atlanta, Georgia.
speaker
Walk us through that as you were
speaker
participating in that, attending in
speaker
that. You were a leader directing
speaker
Worldwide Ministries. Tell us about
speaker
your experience at that reunion
speaker
General Assembly.
speaker
Well, it was partly because of
speaker
tensions in various groups whether
speaker
those who were on the staff were
speaker
given a more minor role, and
speaker
the elected
speaker
people who had representatives a bigger one.
speaker
So in a way, we were less
speaker
involved people in roles like mine, and they had
speaker
to--. But everybody was
speaker
excited about this as something that
speaker
is central that we have been divided
speaker
this long. And it's
speaker
critical we get back together.
speaker
It's critical that
speaker
we--that we deal with these racism
speaker
issues and gender justice.
speaker
And there's a will to
speaker
do it that almost couldn't be done
speaker
without something big like this
speaker
event in Atlanta.
speaker
For me, it was a different thing.
speaker
I was--. I was at home.
speaker
I wasn't at this--. This was the year
speaker
that the General Assembly wasn't in
speaker
Atlanta, and I lived in Atlanta.
speaker
I just moved there.
speaker
So that was a--.
speaker
That was a strange thing.
speaker
It wasn't like going to the
speaker
Assembly; the Assembly came to us.
speaker
Yeah.
speaker
Wow. And so
speaker
a, of course, a
speaker
celebratory event,
speaker
but also much work to do.
speaker
Right? How to reunite?
speaker
How to reunite
speaker
the Northern and Southern
speaker
churches into one.
speaker
What were your
speaker
marching orders, if you will, as a
speaker
staff member?
speaker
What were your marching
speaker
orders at the Assembly
speaker
and then following the Assembly?
speaker
[Cell phone ringing]
speaker
Well, I'm sorry.
speaker
Well, I'm not sure we had marching
speaker
orders as much because there was
speaker
really some question of who
speaker
is--who is legitimate in these
speaker
leadership structures.
speaker
It's a bit like what's there now.
speaker
The people having a commission
speaker
that both in various
speaker
previous streams come
speaker
together around.
speaker
And so the--.
speaker
Yeah, I think--.
speaker
I don't think there were--not
speaker
a lot of remembrance I have of
speaker
the particular roles and responses.
speaker
Maybe there's some I'm not looking
speaker
at.
speaker
Who was your--.
speaker
Who is your counterpart in the
speaker
Northern church?
speaker
So you were the Director of World
speaker
Mission in the Southern
speaker
church, PCUS.
speaker
Who was your counterpart?
speaker
Who was the Director of COEMAR
speaker
or World Missions in the
speaker
UPCUSA?
speaker
Well, one of the regular--most
speaker
cited--and that I think should
speaker
deserve the credit [Cell phone chime]
speaker
is
speaker
Oscar McCloud.
speaker
Oscar was an incredibly good leader
speaker
and pull--tried to
speaker
pull that together.
speaker
There were several other agencies in
speaker
the Northern stream that work
speaker
counter-parted in the Southern
speaker
stream and vice versa, and
speaker
so they created a
speaker
common organization
speaker
that the General Assembly
speaker
Council--that's when that came into
speaker
being.
speaker
And it
speaker
sought to be not
speaker
a chapter of either one of these,
speaker
but of a--of a
speaker
new, new effort in the
speaker
process of birth.
speaker
And so there was a--there was
speaker
equal number of people from each
speaker
side.
speaker
There was some debate about that
speaker
because they were different sizes of
speaker
the group of constituents.
speaker
But basically
speaker
everybody knew that we had
speaker
to make this work, and we did.
speaker
The--. The chair
speaker
of that General Assembly Mission
speaker
Board. Was that past moderator
speaker
Thelma Adair?
speaker
No, not at that--.
speaker
Thelma was the chair
speaker
of Worldwide Ministries.
speaker
Okay.
speaker
An incredibly gifted person.
speaker
She--. As--. When the new structure
speaker
came into being, she finished her
speaker
term.
speaker
Okay.
speaker
Thelma was a--.
speaker
Thelma had a notable work
speaker
in Justice here, but
speaker
she had--she's a globalist in vision
speaker
and was incredible to work with.
speaker
And God--. And God continued to
speaker
bless Thelma. She is one of our
speaker
living moderators still,
speaker
and so--.
speaker
I didn't know that. That's
speaker
fascinating.
speaker
Yeah. She's [unclear].
speaker
[Unclear] she must be
speaker
up in age.
speaker
She is, yeah.
speaker
Thelma I keep in touch from time to
speaker
time, and I'm
speaker
grateful that she is still with us.
speaker
She's still alive, and
speaker
she lives in New Jersey.
speaker
But I'd had to ask you about
speaker
Thelma because I know that she was
speaker
a part of that--.
speaker
She was in the World Mission part of
speaker
that, and really
speaker
incredibly good gift of leadership.
speaker
In fact, the leadership
speaker
that came out of reviewing the
speaker
people--the quote ten best from
speaker
New York and ten best from Atlanta
speaker
and all that--it was that
speaker
whole set of boards that were
speaker
created out of that were some of the
speaker
best leadership groups we've had.
speaker
Wow, that's fantastic.
speaker
So you--.
speaker
So after the Assembly,
speaker
let's step back from the Assembly
speaker
for a moment because I want to
speaker
capture that 1980s
speaker
period--the early 1980s.
speaker
So reunion was 1983.
speaker
But also in the early eighties
speaker
was World Council of Churches'
speaker
"Baptism, Eucharist, and Ministry"
speaker
and the
speaker
World Mission and Evangelism
speaker
document or the San
speaker
Antonio Statement I think it was?
speaker
Yes. Yes.
speaker
Were you a part of
speaker
that? Like, what was all of that--.
speaker
I mean, all of that 1980s--.
speaker
I was part of this.
speaker
I was part of the group that did
speaker
this San Antonio statement and all
speaker
that.
speaker
I was less in any leadership role
speaker
with the BEM.
speaker
But
speaker
I believed in it deeply, and it was
speaker
foundational.
speaker
You know, a culture of
speaker
community is critical to
speaker
being able to do--to
speaker
be responsive to God's
speaker
mission in justice.
speaker
The--. The focus
speaker
and the mission and evangelism,
speaker
you know, is a clear move we did
speaker
over that period of time. I remember
speaker
looking toward things as part of
speaker
God's mission, not our mission.
speaker
And beginning with the--.
speaker
In fact, I've got--.
speaker
I don't know if this will show up
speaker
on--. Here it is.
speaker
Okay, there it is.
speaker
This--this mission, evangelism,
speaker
and ecumenical affirmation
speaker
is one of the most profound mission
speaker
statements this church has
speaker
ever had. And we had a major role,
speaker
along with a whole lot of others, in
speaker
the World Council and
speaker
in developing this notion of
speaker
a mission in evangelism
speaker
and ecumenical affirmation.
speaker
Because in many ways they
speaker
had been always separated, and
speaker
now they have been put together.
speaker
And the World Council,
speaker
which is the absolutely
speaker
critical dimension to
speaker
being able to do mission in unity.
speaker
Yes.
speaker
So during that period that--as
speaker
that document was
speaker
being considered and approved by
speaker
the World Council, Philip
speaker
Potter--.
speaker
Philip Potter was the WCC General
speaker
Secretary.
speaker
What was it like to work with Philip
speaker
Potter?
speaker
Oh a fine fellow.
speaker
Potter finished his formal
speaker
leadership about the time I
speaker
came into the--to
speaker
the scene.
speaker
But yeah he was--he was a
speaker
force of nature in this--in the
speaker
movement and deeply
speaker
revered.
speaker
And he also--.
speaker
He's
speaker
left us now, but he also was one
speaker
that was really pivotal to
speaker
so many people's sense of
speaker
trust in the ecumenical movement.
speaker
And then shortly after reunion--and
speaker
you're still serving as Director of
speaker
Worldwide Ministries during this
speaker
period--Emilio Castro
speaker
became the General Secretary of
speaker
the World Council of Churches in
speaker
1985 or thereabouts.
speaker
What was it like to work with
speaker
General Secretary Emilio Castro?
speaker
Well, he was gracious in the best
speaker
sense. He was a, you know,
speaker
he was a Latin American with
speaker
all of its strengths and vitality
speaker
and energy.
speaker
And he
speaker
also really saw to
speaker
the implementation of the mission
speaker
and evangelism.
speaker
He was a--.
speaker
Emilio was really a
speaker
pastor to the people there.
speaker
And that was kind of needed at that
speaker
point. They'd been
speaker
with a Presbyterian with the--
speaker
[pause].
speaker
Not sure where I was going, but
speaker
Emilio was
speaker
pivotal to
speaker
the work in mission.
speaker
And he
speaker
was able to broaden the scope to
speaker
cover the whole of the World
speaker
Council, but never to leave
speaker
it alone.
speaker
That
speaker
mission emphasis--that
speaker
is a mission emphasis founded in
speaker
unity, and Emilio
speaker
was a great gift for that.
speaker
Yes. Yes.
speaker
Amen. Amen. Emilio was a great--was
speaker
a great leader, a great influence in
speaker
the ecumenical movement and in
speaker
mission.
speaker
In our final five minutes
speaker
or so, I want to ask
speaker
you your working
speaker
relationship and thoughts of another
speaker
Presbyterian leader: Eugene
speaker
Carson Blake.
speaker
Yeah. I was wondering if you coming
speaker
there.
speaker
Tell me about Eugene Carson Blake
speaker
and the mystique
speaker
of Eugene Carson Blake.
speaker
You worked with him, and you
speaker
were engaged with him
speaker
as a leader. Tell us about
speaker
Eugene Carson Blake.
speaker
Well, you're a little ahead of me
speaker
here, I admit.
speaker
Eugene Carson Blake.
speaker
I remember the first time I--the
speaker
first assembly
speaker
I did [with] the reunited church was
speaker
when I was still working
speaker
in Houston.
speaker
And we went up to Hartford,
speaker
Connecticut to be at a
speaker
Presbyterian General Assembly, and
speaker
that was the presbytery--. One of
speaker
the things they were going to do at
speaker
that Assembly was elect a Stated
speaker
Clerk. And they'd all
speaker
lined up a committee--candidate
speaker
that they thought represented
speaker
all--everybody's interests only
speaker
to find that Eugene Carson
speaker
Blake was elected Stated
speaker
Clerk and
speaker
began to really--was
speaker
a force for justice and for peace
speaker
in the church, in the denomination,
speaker
but also was very much
speaker
a leader in the World Council.
speaker
He really led and put together the
speaker
program to combat racism that
speaker
had reverberation
speaker
all across the church in the world
speaker
since that time.
speaker
We worked on a
speaker
scholarship program for the
speaker
Ecumenical Institute in Marseille
speaker
named after Eugene Carson Blake.
speaker
There was a general
speaker
kind of affirmation.
speaker
Eugene Carson Blake didn't
speaker
generate the warm fuzzies that
speaker
Emilio did, but he
speaker
was right on that--.
speaker
He was what a clerk would do in a
speaker
role like that, and we've
speaker
had as a gift. We've had all these
speaker
different kinds of people
speaker
that fill this role.
speaker
But they tend to be ones that
speaker
complement each other, that you hope
speaker
for what the unity of the church
speaker
might look like, and often
speaker
you got the mismatch
speaker
that goes with that.
speaker
But they elected--.
speaker
The Stated Clerk that
speaker
had been elected,
speaker
I think, truly represented that good
speaker
synthesis and ability to work
speaker
together.
speaker
Wonderful.
speaker
What was your working
speaker
with Eugene Carson Blake when you
speaker
were Worldwide Ministries Director?
speaker
He was already--.
speaker
He--. When Worldwide Ministries
speaker
came, he had left that time.
speaker
He had left after--.
speaker
He left the Assemblies [unclear] after
speaker
that.
speaker
Assembly--.
speaker
I'm trying to think of where it was.
speaker
Okay.
speaker
But it was four or five
speaker
years later that we got
speaker
into the period you're talk about, I think.
speaker
Okay.
speaker
Okay.
speaker
And then now, in the final minutes,
speaker
I want to capture again the post
speaker
1983.
speaker
So you're still Director of
speaker
Worldwide Ministries, and
speaker
Jim Andrews is the Stated Clerk
speaker
of that post reunion,
speaker
now, PC(USA).
speaker
Share with us about some of
speaker
the--working
speaker
with Jim Andrews in those early
speaker
years after reunion.
speaker
And what were some of the key
speaker
challenges that he was facing
speaker
that you were with him in that
speaker
post reunion?
speaker
Well, Jim was--.
speaker
Jim was another one who was not a
speaker
warm fuzzy, but he was
speaker
very much a person,
speaker
in his core, [who] knew that the
speaker
reform movement is important
speaker
and that the world and the
speaker
ecumenical movement is important.
speaker
And this was a period of time in
speaker
which there were some real question
speaker
whether we could solve the church's
speaker
budget. I remember we had a big
speaker
battle about that.
speaker
And it was Jim that finally said,
speaker
"You know, it's not an issue of
speaker
money.
speaker
It's an issue of what is the nature
speaker
of the church." And
speaker
Jim has been--was and
speaker
is--was
speaker
key to keeping that vision in front
speaker
of the church.
speaker
He never was overly interested
speaker
in the mission side,
speaker
but he always had
speaker
a way of building mission into
speaker
the very heart of the polity.
speaker
Amen.
speaker
We're going to close out this--.
speaker
Well, we still have about a couple
speaker
of minutes. We're still lingering in
speaker
the early eighties, and
speaker
there's one area that I
speaker
have to ask you about
speaker
in 1982.
speaker
So pre-reunion, but we're still in
speaker
that--in that general period
speaker
of the eighties. 1982.
speaker
The World Alliance of Reformed
speaker
Churches came
speaker
alongside our South African
speaker
siblings, apartheid, and Allan
speaker
Boesak, elected president
speaker
of the World Alliance.
speaker
Tell us about that--that
speaker
General Council of the World
speaker
Alliance and
speaker
the ecumenical movement standing
speaker
in solidarity
speaker
with
speaker
our South African siblings who were
speaker
protesting apartheid.
speaker
What was that
speaker
period about?
speaker
That was kind of our finest moment
speaker
as reformed people.
speaker
That we had taken a commitment to
speaker
confessions that nobody knew quite
speaker
where they fit, that
speaker
we connected to
speaker
the church's struggle, and
speaker
made it--and built into
speaker
our Book of Confessions major
speaker
changes.
speaker
And I, well,
speaker
I ended up, as you know, as the
speaker
chair of the
speaker
committee that was promoting the
speaker
Belhar Confession.
speaker
But it made a--. It made a hug difference that
speaker
we had added to--.
speaker
Belhar Confession
speaker
helped us add
speaker
the call to racial justice,
speaker
to economic justice, to gender
speaker
justice, and we see all of those
speaker
as parts
speaker
and expressions of the
speaker
gospel.
speaker
And that's--that's
speaker
the work that was done, in many
speaker
ways, in that work.
speaker
And PC(USA) had a major work
speaker
leadership role in the world--in
speaker
the World of Communion of Reformed
speaker
Churches.
speaker
I'm not sure what--. Does that--.
speaker
Well, were you--.
speaker
Well, and we're grateful for you and
speaker
Matilde Moros in co-moderating that
speaker
in the--in 2013
speaker
or so the committee that
speaker
brought the Belhar
speaker
Confession to our Book of
speaker
Confessions.
speaker
We're going to get to that in
speaker
subsequent conversations, but
speaker
were you--? Did
speaker
you accompany the Stated Clerk at
speaker
that--at that General Council
speaker
of the World Alliance when the--when
speaker
Allan Boesak was elected
speaker
president of the World Alliance at
speaker
that time in 1982?
speaker
Yes.
speaker
Yeah, I was there.
speaker
It was my first ecumenical
speaker
engagement because right after, I
speaker
had been elected State Clerk.
speaker
And obviously, Jim--I worked with
speaker
Jim Andrews because he, obviously,
speaker
was more centrally located
speaker
in the structure of things than
speaker
I was.
speaker
But I remember how powerful
speaker
the sermon that Allan Boesak gave,
speaker
the--the
speaker
sense of we are doing something very
speaker
important in our life together
speaker
that came out of that.
speaker
And Jim was
speaker
always committed to
speaker
and supportive of
speaker
the work of the Alliance.
speaker
[Unclear] That's another name
speaker
change, but I think a good one
speaker
though. Alliance, in theory,
speaker
is something that you do with
speaker
somebody that is not necessarily
speaker
your best friend.
speaker
A communion is something you do
speaker
because you have unity and unity
speaker
with the group.
speaker
We hopefully move that--that
speaker
movement from
speaker
one of support
speaker
to one of justice[?] at the
speaker
heart of the unity of the church.
speaker
That Confession
speaker
of Belhar is also
speaker
the confession of the PC(USA).
speaker
Thank you. And with that--.
speaker
With that, we're going
speaker
to end this conversation.
speaker
Cliff, thank you.

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Title: Cliff Kirkpatrick oral history, 2023.
Description: Oral history of Stated Clerk Emeritus Cliff Kirkpatrick interviewed by Rev. Dr. Neal Presa and recorded via Zoom by Randy Hobson of OGA Communications on July 24, 2023. The Rev. Dr. Clifton Kirkpatrick is an ordained minister who served for fifteen years as the Director of the Worldwide Ministries Division before becoming Stated Clerk. He served in this capacity from 1996-2008 and, at the conclusion of his service, was elected by the General Assembly as Stated Clerk Emeritus. His other leadership roles included Co-moderator of the General Assembly Special Committee on the Belhar Confession and member of the Board of Directors of the Covenant Network of Presbyterians. Kirkpatrick attended Davidson College (BA), Yale University (MDiv), and McCormick Theological Seminary (DMin).
Creator: Kirkpatrick, Clifton, 1945- (interviewee)
Presa, Neal D. (interviewer)
Hobson, Randy. (recording engineer)
Date: 2023
July 24, 2023
Type of resource: moving image
Genre: interviews
oral histories
Form: born digital
video recordings
Extent: 1.75 MB (1 MP4 file)
Language: English
Subject names: Kirkpatrick, Clifton, 1945-
Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). General Assembly. Office of the Stated Clerk.
Covenant Network of Presbyterians.
Topics: Presbyterian Church--Church officers.
Presbyterian Church--Clergy.
Church leadership--Presbyterian Church.
Geographic subjects: North and Central America--United States
Rights status: IN COPYRIGHT - NON-COMMERCIAL USE PERMITTED; http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/
Physical location: ARCHIVES 23-0805; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA
Related item: Cliff Kirkpatrick oral history, 2023. --https://prestohost68.inmagic.com/Presto/content/Detail.aspx?ctID=Y2RiNWN...
Identifier (local): CliffKirkpatrick_20230724
PID (Persistent Identifier): islandora:346652

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