Holly and KC Clark-Porter oral history, 2023.

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    Okay. This is Natalie Shilstut and
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    I'm speaking with Holly and KC
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    Clark-Porter.
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    It is July 18th, 2023.
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    So, Holly and KC, would you like
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    to start off by telling me
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    when and where you were both born?
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    I was born in Baytown, Texas,
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    in 1982.
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    Baytown is just outside
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    of Houston.
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    And I was born in Odessa, Texas, in
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    1985, and that's
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    West Texas.
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    Could you talk a little bit about
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    your experiences growing up
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    in the Presbyterian Church?
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    You want me to go first?
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    Yeah. Everything.
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    Oh, everything?
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    Oh, just so that there's
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    consistency.
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    Oh, okay.
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    So I was baptized
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    Presbyterian.
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    My mom and her side of the family
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    grew up Presbyterian.
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    My dad grew up Southern Baptist,
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    but he was more
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    than happy to make that transition
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    to Presbyterian
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    so that we could all worship
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    together as a family.
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    And
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    so I had a really kind of
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    charmed churchy
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    upbringing.
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    We always attended
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    pretty healthy churches.
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    My parents were very active
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    as elders and deacons and
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    Sunday school teachers and youth
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    group leaders and all of that
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    kind of stuff.
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    And I have a younger
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    brother. He's four years younger.
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    And so, you know, we went to church
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    every Sunday. It was kind of a
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    non non-negotiable, but
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    we didn't fight it too much.
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    We enjoyed it.
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    We had friends and
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    important relationships with people
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    at the church.
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    And
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    as we got older, you know, we
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    participated in youth group and
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    youth choir.
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    You know, we served on committees
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    as youth representatives, went
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    on all the youth group trips.
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    At this time we were living in
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    Tyler, Texas, which is just
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    kind of outside Dallas, and we
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    were in the presbytery, which
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    housed all the Dallas
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    Metroplex churches.
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    So there was tons of youth in
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    that area to, you know, go to
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    Six Flags and, you know, all of
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    those kinds of things.
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    So it was a lot of fun. And in
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    high school was where
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    I first started sensing a call to
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    ministry and I think
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    it was because
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    that was such a rewarding piece
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    of my life, a place where I felt
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    love and belonging and
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    acceptance.
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    So.
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    Yeah.
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    Really,
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    I would imagine it as a pretty,
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    pretty charmed experience.
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    Yeah.
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    Yeah.
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    Compared to others I've heard.
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    For sure.
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    And very similar.
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    I was born into
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    the Church, baptized early on.
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    This is in Odessa, Texas.
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    I went to a church that was
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    well-known for preachers who
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    are well known.
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    My mom was the choir director.
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    We were always in the little, what
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    were we called?
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    Joyful Noise.
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    And I loved
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    church. I loved children's
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    time.
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    I loved the pastors.
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    Church was kind of everything
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    to my family, my mom's family's
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    Presbyterian a long way back.
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    My dad was Episcopalian, so that was
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    a pretty easy jump for him as well.
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    But they also met in that church
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    and and
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    kind of that's the church
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    that baptized me was the church
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    that watched my dad
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    go from kind of
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    a mess to a great
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    disciple and deacon and
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    elder. And then we moved
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    from Odessa, Texas, to
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    East Texas to Winnsboro, Texas.
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    It's a pretty rough,
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    pretty rough transition culturally,
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    especially
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    East Texas.
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    Pretty racist.
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    Pretty
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    country.
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    Very evangelical.
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    Very evangelical Bible Belt.
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    Yeah. And so the church that
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    we went to was
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    a whole bunch of retired folks
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    in the town and then my family.
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    And so this was middle school-ish
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    for me. And then my siblings were
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    elementary and we were
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    the youth group.
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    We had to go to children's time
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    until I was like 17,
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    going up there to make all the old
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    folks happy.
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    But it was still a lovely place
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    and did a lot
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    to help raise me and
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    teach me, helped form my
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    opinions.
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    And that is also where I started
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    feeling a call to ministry.
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    And I've kind of
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    got this great story where this
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    one guy told me, You know,
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    you're really good with old people,
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    you should go to seminary.
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    So
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    yeah, that was kind of my my
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    childhood with the
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    PC(USA) and just
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    wonderful, wonderful memories.
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    So you both ended up going to
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    seminary?
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    The same seminary, right?
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    Austin Presbyterian Theological
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    Seminary. Could you talk a bit about
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    how you ended up there and your time
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    at seminary?
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    Yeah. So as I mentioned, I started
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    sensing a call to ministry in high
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    school. I was probably 15 or 16
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    and it was a it was
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    a very firm call.
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    You know, that's really just I
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    didn't think about doing
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    anything else with my life probably
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    until I got to college.
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    And, you know, you start thinking
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    about other options
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    or possibilities.
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    But everything that I thought
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    about doing or thought that I would
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    be good at, you know, involved
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    people involved service in some way.
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    And I ended up majoring
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    in philosophy.
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    I went to the University of Colorado
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    in Boulder.
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    And so it was a wonderful place
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    to go to school, beautiful location.
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    And I loved all of my
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    philosophy classes.
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    That was just sort of a natural
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    fit for me.
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    And of
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    course, I feel like it helped
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    me immensely when I did go
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    into seminary.
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    That was a that was a great
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    foundation for me.
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    So after college, I moved
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    back to Texas and
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    took a year off.
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    I did a couple long term
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    sub positions as a
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    elementary school
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    PE teacher, which was
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    just great fun
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    and it was a nice
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    little gap year before
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    going on to seminary,
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    and
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    I didn't visit any other schools.
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    I don't know why I, I thought
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    that I would either end up at
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    Columbia or Princeton.
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    But there were some
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    folks from my church in Tyler who
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    were on the board of Austin, and
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    they said, You have to go.
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    Just check it out.
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    And so I went to
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    their prospectus weekend, which
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    was called Discovery Weekend, and
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    I was just sold.
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    You know, it was so confirming
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    that this was the community that
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    I wanted to be a part of.
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    And it was nice to be able to stay
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    in Texas. My brother was going
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    to school at UT Austin.
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    And so we were going to, you know,
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    be able to live in the same
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    city again.
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    And
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    and so, yeah.
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    Again, no,
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    no regrets on that choice at all.
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    I had a tremendous time in
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    seminary.
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    I made wonderful relationships.
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    I loved the faculty.
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    We still rave about the education
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    that we received there.
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    It was a very traditional
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    you know, we read lots of Calvin and
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    Barth and, you know, all the
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    all the old guys.
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    But.
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    You should talk about your tattoo.
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    Oh, yeah so.
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    So it's recorded in the history.
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    You're right. It needs to be in the
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    history.
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    So, yeah, in my middle
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    year of seminary was 2009,
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    and that was the year that John
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    Calvin turned 500.
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    And so I thought it was appropriate
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    to get a Calvin tattoo.
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    And so I do, I have a Calvin tattoo
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    on my on my right calf.
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    And it is really good.
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    I get lots of comments on it, but
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    I think maybe there's only been
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    two people in my whole life that
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    have accurately guessed.
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    Is that John Calvin?
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    Normally I get Nostradamus
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    or Aristotle.
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    But yeah,
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    seminary for the most part
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    was wonderful.
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    I in addition to my education,
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    there were plenty of opportunities
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    for me to serve on student
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    government. And then my senior year
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    I served as student body president,
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    which was a wonderful experience.
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    And then also in my senior
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    year, that's when Holly and I met.
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    She was a couple of years
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    behind me, so she came in her
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    junior year, my senior
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    year.
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    So that was special that we had that
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    time to overlap.
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    It was special.
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    And so, yeah,
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    I was I was always interested
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    in religion, but I always kind of
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    wanted to not go to seminary.
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    My so my parents took
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    a long time to have children.
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    And my mom said when
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    I was born that I was her Samuel.
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    And so, you know, she gave me to
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    God. So I kind of always had that
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    following me. And I really didn't
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    want to I didn't want to do
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    what was following me.
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    And so I thought I was
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    going to be in politics or law.
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    And after
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    I graduated from undergrad
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    at Shriner University, I went and
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    did politics in Austin and
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    did that for a little over a year
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    or maybe maybe two years.
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    And it was boring.
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    And dull and
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    felt like I wasn't actually doing
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    any good.
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    And I was like, you know that
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    seminary is right here in town.
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    I think I'll look into
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    it.
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    And that's kind of how I ended up
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    there. I am so glad too.
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    I couldn't
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    imagine any other seminary being
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    as good as
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    what we had,
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    good education, good people.
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    But yeah, so awesome seminary.
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    What was the rest of the question?
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    Just what was
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    your time there like,
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    up there? Yeah.
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    Yeah.
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    And the time there was
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    really quite wonderful.
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    When I look back on it, there were
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    some moments that were
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    that were obnoxious, especially
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    when we started to come out.
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    I think one of the weird things
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    about my seminary time,
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    because so KC was a senior
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    and we'd kept our relationship
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    pretty quiet for the first semester,
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    and then I think we kind of started
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    kind of coming out the second
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    semester.
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    And so, you know, you only had a few
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    months left, a couple of months
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    left, but then I had
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    two and a half more years.
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    And so at that point, things
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    started getting kind of sketchy on
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    one hand and really great
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    on the other.
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    There were only
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    I guess,
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    nobody was out really.
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    I think we were some of the first
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    people that came out on campus while
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    I was there.
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    And then my best friend,
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    our best friend came out, John
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    Stanger, we all
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    kind of came out together.
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    And that was a good bit of fun.
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    But we started seeing some
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    discrimination pretty early on.
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    A
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    couple of professors who are now
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    gone, they were gone pretty
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    shortly after that, were
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    obvious about
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    their discrimination. KC and
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    I also wanted to get married
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    on campus at the chapel.
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    And we didn't.
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    We knew we couldn't get married
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    legally. We were going to do we were
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    going to follow the book, you know,
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    follow the book and
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    do a civil ceremony,
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    you know, student body president,
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    both of us students,
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    both of us highly involved in
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    a lot of things, excellent students,
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    and they wouldn't let us
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    have it.
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    We always thought it was so funny
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    that any UT student, any University
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    of Texas student could be walking
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    down the hill and go, Oh, that's a
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    pretty chapel.
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    They didn't have to be Christian.
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    They didn't have to know what the
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    seminary was.
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    They didn't have to know jack or
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    claim anything.
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    And they could have, if
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    they're a straight couple, they
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    could get married there.
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    And we couldn't.
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    We were not allowed.
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    And that was hard.
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    It was hard on relationships.
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    We had kind of made a
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    good friendship with Ted Wardlaw,
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    who was the president at the time,
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    and.
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    You know, it was hard.
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    It was hard having to deal with
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    what's the word administration
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    versus behind
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    the scenes friendships.
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    And I think that came into play a
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    lot with some professors
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    who had to know a couple of our
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    professors and friends on campus
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    had to make hard decisions,
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    and they made them in our favor.
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    And yeah, so
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    that was Austin Seminary for
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    me.
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    And also my year
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    was the first year that one
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    the polity bowl so that should be.
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    The polity bowl, there's
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    an Episcopal seminary right across
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    the street. And so every year we
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    play a competitive
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    flag football game against
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    each other. So.
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    Yeah.
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    It's just kind of.
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    Fun. Oh, I also
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    did start Queer Alliance.
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    I was going to say, you should.
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    Yeah, I started a queer alliance
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    because I wanted people to help me.
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    And they were slowly trickling
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    out. A few of us queers.
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    And so there were about four of us.
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    And so I started a queer alliance.
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    I got a table
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    at the local bar, and I invited the
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    whole school, you know if you'd like
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    to come to Queer Alliance, here's
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    the time. Here's the place.
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    I got a table for four,
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    and we kept having to pull in
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    tables.
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    We had 24 people by the
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    end of the meeting
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    and.
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    Which included allies.
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    Which included allies, yeah.
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    Mostly it was allies.
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    But it was really
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    heartwarming and really lovely.
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    And we did. We did good work.
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    And we pushed boundaries.
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    And it's still
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    a really important organization on
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    campus.
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    Yeah, did I get it all?
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    Yeah. And I figured we'd probably
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    touch more.
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    More on the.
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    Yeah so.
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    So I was going to shift over next to
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    your unique ordination
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    process in the Presbyterian Church.
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    Can you talk about where
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    you were ordained and
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    any barriers you encountered
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    leading up to the ordination?
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    Yes. So we were
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    jointly ordained in the same
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    ordination service,
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    March 22nd, 2015,
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    in Wilmington, Delaware, at
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    First and Central Presbyterian
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    Church, which was the church that
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    I was serving at the time.
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    I had started at that church
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    about a year and a half, almost
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    two years before that in
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    a pretty low key capacity.
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    I was working part time as a
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    Christian Ed.
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    director, but
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    it became apparent that it was a
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    really good fit pastorally.
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    I had wonderful, tremendous
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    colleagues.
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    I was given lots of opportunities
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    to practice pastoral ministry,
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    and
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    it was just it was perfect.
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    And I had
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    before then kind of
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    doubted, you know, wondered if.
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    You know, because the
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    year that I graduated from seminary,
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    2010 was when Amendment
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    10-A passed,
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    which officially allowed the
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    ordination of,
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    you know, LGBTQ.
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    Just L and G at that point.
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    Yeah, just L and G at that point,
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    but.
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    And so it was it was
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    pretty new and pretty uncertain.
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    And I had been serving a church
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    in Austin right
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    after I graduated from seminary,
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    and I was working
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    primarily with campus
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    ministry and young adult ministry.
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    And the way
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    that I've described this church
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    in the past is oppressively
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    moderate.
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    You know, just
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    to me, they weren't willing to
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    take a stand for anything,
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    including their staff.
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    And, you know, and.
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    For instance you know the.
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    The night before, Holly
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    and I did get
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    married, but we had our covenant
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    blessing ceremony in Austin because
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    legally, marriage wasn't legal yet.
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    We ended up flying to New York to
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    get legally married.
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    But,
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    you know, we had a session meeting
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    the night before, and of course, I
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    wasn't going to be there because we
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    were having a rehearsal.
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    And, you know, my pastor,
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    my senior pastor, you know, had the
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    opportunity to say, this is where
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    KC is.
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    You know, we're
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    so happy for them.
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    You know, my
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    wife and I are going to be there at
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    the ceremony tomorrow
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    showing our support.
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    I mean, it was just nothing was
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    said.
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    You know, and so there was an
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    opportunity I feel like that was
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    wasted
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    to to help bring people on board,
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    because even though this was
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    just ten years ago, ten,
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    11 years ago, so
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    much has changed since then.
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    And so sometimes it's so it's
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    difficult to look back
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    and remember how
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    different it was even just 11
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    years ago.
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    There were people in that
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    congregation who felt like
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    because I didn't disclose
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    that I was queer
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    during my job interview, even though
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    you know Holly and I weren't even
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    engaged at that point, we were still
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    just dating.
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    You know, those were that
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    those waters were uncharted.
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    And, you know, I made the
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    best decision that
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    I knew how to make at the time.
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    I wasn't trying to be intentionally
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    deceptive, but I also wanted
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    a job and, you know,
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    wanted to be in ministry.
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    And.
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    Well and
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    they were supposed to be, you
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    know, the academic, liberal
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    connected to the seminary
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    church.
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    Right.
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    And that's what they told people.
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    So when I,
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    I served there for
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    almost three years and
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    didn't leave under the greatest
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    of experiences.
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    Just because I never really quite
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    knew where I stood with them.
  • speaker
    And so that was just a tremendously
  • speaker
    hard place to be in
  • speaker
    and to go to work every day.
  • speaker
    And so all this is to say
  • speaker
    when we made the move to Delaware.
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    I wasn't.
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    My future in the church was kind of
  • speaker
    tenuous, and so I was pleasantly
  • speaker
    surprised with how wonderfully
  • speaker
    progressive the
  • speaker
    church in Delaware was.
  • speaker
    And Newcastle, the whole presbytery.
  • speaker
    And the whole presbytery.
  • speaker
    Yeah,
  • speaker
    I mean, I just I was blown away
  • speaker
    and so it
  • speaker
    healed some wounds that I
  • speaker
    had.
  • speaker
    And so our ordination
  • speaker
    for me was
  • speaker
    a hugely positive, celebratory.
  • speaker
    We finally made it here,
  • speaker
    you know.
  • speaker
    Being ordained five years after
  • speaker
    graduating from seminary.
  • speaker
    It was a long road and
  • speaker
    there were some pretty big emotional
  • speaker
    patches along
  • speaker
    the way.
  • speaker
    So I'll just leave it there for now.
  • speaker
    Yeah,
  • speaker
    because so much of it is entangled,
  • speaker
    isn't it?
  • speaker
    Yeah. So I'll pick up it at
  • speaker
    University Presbyterian.
  • speaker
    That was kind of so.
  • speaker
    I was still in school,
  • speaker
    but here I was watching
  • speaker
    the person I hoped was going to be
  • speaker
    my spouse struggle
  • speaker
    and I knew my spouse to be
  • speaker
    or my future spouse
  • speaker
    to be excellent, theologically
  • speaker
    speaking, a great
  • speaker
    preacher.
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    I won't say that out loud.
  • speaker
    Very talented,
  • speaker
    very talented person.
  • speaker
    And I watched my love
  • speaker
    struggle at this supposedly
  • speaker
    amazing church.
  • speaker
    And so at this
  • speaker
    point, I had been
  • speaker
    I started under care at
  • speaker
    Kerrville Presbyterian Church, which
  • speaker
    is where I went to college.
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    So that's where I started out under
  • speaker
    care.
  • speaker
    I was fully embraced.
  • speaker
    I was, you know,
  • speaker
    cute straight girl, fully
  • speaker
    embraced by Mission Presbytery.
  • speaker
    They thought I was just
  • speaker
    great.
  • speaker
    And then I came out and had to
  • speaker
    move my
  • speaker
    under care church to Central
  • speaker
    Presbyterian, which
  • speaker
    is what I did in Austin.
  • speaker
    And so they were my new
  • speaker
    care church.
  • speaker
    And then
  • speaker
    the presbytery, what was that
  • speaker
    committee called?
  • speaker
    The CPM?
  • speaker
    Committee on Preparation.
  • speaker
    Yeah, Committee on Preparation.
  • speaker
    Then
  • speaker
    it was really began to be hostile
  • speaker
    in Mission Presbytery.
  • speaker
    Things were not, not good.
  • speaker
    My, my best friend John Stanger
  • speaker
    and I were in
  • speaker
    the same
  • speaker
    troubles as far as the presbytery
  • speaker
    went, but
  • speaker
    I was the first to
  • speaker
    go through out.
  • speaker
    Out.
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    I know there are plenty of other
  • speaker
    folks that went through because
  • speaker
    they had to in the closet, but
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    I was the first to go through out in
  • speaker
    hopes of actually making it.
  • speaker
    And I, at UPC,
  • speaker
    I would show up every Sunday
  • speaker
    to UPC and I was
  • speaker
    ignored. I sat in a
  • speaker
    pew by myself.
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    I'd go to the Christmas parties and.
  • speaker
    Other staff.
  • speaker
    It was not a
  • speaker
    welcoming place. It was
  • speaker
    not a healing time.
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    It was not a time where I thought,
  • speaker
    oh, I can't wait to get into this
  • speaker
    industry.
  • speaker
    And so then my final
  • speaker
    bit of being under
  • speaker
    CPM was you know
  • speaker
    the last time where you have to go
  • speaker
    through, I don't know how familiar
  • speaker
    you are with the process. But
  • speaker
    you have to go through, and then you
  • speaker
    have to preach and they
  • speaker
    ask you a bunch of questions and
  • speaker
    then they judge you.
  • speaker
    And then.
  • speaker
    When you're certified ready.
  • speaker
    When you're certified ready.
  • speaker
    Yes. See, I had forgotten all of
  • speaker
    this because I put it all out of my
  • speaker
    mind. It was so horrific.
  • speaker
    One of well, so we each had
  • speaker
    a sponsor or what were they called?
  • speaker
    Kind of a liaison.
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    A liaison.
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    And my liaison was
  • speaker
    a member at KC's church and.
  • speaker
    She
  • speaker
    she would not stand up for me
  • speaker
    in that room.
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    No one stood up for me.
  • speaker
    No one stood up for me.
  • speaker
    I was asked inappropriate questions
  • speaker
    about sex,
  • speaker
    like how many times I you know
  • speaker
    had sex with my partner.
  • speaker
    And at the time we were married.
  • speaker
    So that was rude.
  • speaker
    I was asked other questions
  • speaker
    that were so inappropriate.
  • speaker
    I said I wasn't going to get
  • speaker
    emotional.
  • speaker
    And then after being asked
  • speaker
    all these questions
  • speaker
    and I was shaking and then then I
  • speaker
    had to preach.
  • speaker
    And this one horrid, horrid
  • speaker
    woman named Ruth, not mind
  • speaker
    saying her name out loud.
  • speaker
    Ruth and Wayne scoffed
  • speaker
    at me and said, Huh?
  • speaker
    I'd never forget this.
  • speaker
    Huh?
  • speaker
    We heard you were supposed to be
  • speaker
    good. Didn't you win that award?
  • speaker
    I didn't think that was all that
  • speaker
    good.
  • speaker
    I did.
  • speaker
    I won a preaching award.
  • speaker
    I'm good, I'm a great preacher.
  • speaker
    I was a great student.
  • speaker
    I was active in all the things.
  • speaker
    I passed all my ords
  • speaker
    easily.
  • speaker
    I was a stand up member
  • speaker
    of the church.
  • speaker
    They sent me out to the hall.
  • speaker
    Again, I'm standing up for myself.
  • speaker
    Not one person has stood up for me.
  • speaker
    They send me out to the hall.
  • speaker
    I can hear them yelling.
  • speaker
    They debate for 45 minutes.
  • speaker
    While I'm alone.
  • speaker
    Waiting.
  • speaker
    And I came into the room and
  • speaker
    everyone was quiet.
  • speaker
    And half the people weren't looking
  • speaker
    at me.
  • speaker
    And then
  • speaker
    my liaison whispered
  • speaker
    to me like it was death
  • speaker
    that indeed I had passed.
  • speaker
    No one clapped.
  • speaker
    You know, usually these occasions
  • speaker
    you walk into the room and they clap
  • speaker
    for you. Usually also, unless
  • speaker
    you've got something.
  • speaker
    An issue that has come up during
  • speaker
    your seminary.
  • speaker
    Usually you go out for 5 minutes
  • speaker
    and then you come back in to
  • speaker
    applause.
  • speaker
    And I didn't.
  • speaker
    And then they prayed.
  • speaker
    And two of those people, Ruth
  • speaker
    and Wayne, wouldn't
  • speaker
    stand in the prayer circle.
  • speaker
    They stood outside of it.
  • speaker
    The rest of us held hands, and
  • speaker
    the prayer was all about healing the
  • speaker
    church. And not one bit of the
  • speaker
    prayer was about me or my ministry
  • speaker
    or the pain I must have endured.
  • speaker
    And that sticks with a girl.
  • speaker
    So that was
  • speaker
    before ordination.
  • speaker
    Then we moved to
  • speaker
    Delaware.
  • speaker
    I was working for
  • speaker
    the presbytery kind of
  • speaker
    for a 1001 New Worshiping Community.
  • speaker
    I started Big Gay Church.
  • speaker
    It was fabulous.
  • speaker
    Still keep up with my people.
  • speaker
    But that was it was a rough process
  • speaker
    also.
  • speaker
    But they didn't know what they were
  • speaker
    doing hiring me, there was a lot
  • speaker
    of miscommunication.
  • speaker
    There was promises of ordination,
  • speaker
    and then it never happened.
  • speaker
    Never happened, never happened.
  • speaker
    And finally
  • speaker
    they figured out how to make it
  • speaker
    happen.
  • speaker
    And so then we got ordained together
  • speaker
    and I kind of hung out at First and
  • speaker
    Central. I loved First and Central.
  • speaker
    I love those people always, always
  • speaker
    will.
  • speaker
    And so it was easy for
  • speaker
    me to be ordained there.
  • speaker
    But my ordination process in general
  • speaker
    was just rough.
  • speaker
    It was a it was an end.
  • speaker
    What's the word? End to a mean?
  • speaker
    Means to an end.
  • speaker
    You can cut that out Nick,
  • speaker
    make me look smarter.
  • speaker
    It was kind of the last blockade
  • speaker
    that really stopped me from being
  • speaker
    a pastor.
  • speaker
    And so.
  • speaker
    Yeah, I think that's all I want to
  • speaker
    say about that.
  • speaker
    You should just mention that you were ordained as an evangelist.
  • speaker
    Oh, yeah, this is super
  • speaker
    fun.
  • speaker
    So because
  • speaker
    the church that I started hadn't
  • speaker
    been hadn't had incorporation
  • speaker
    paperwork, they couldn't technically
  • speaker
    ordain me to the church.
  • speaker
    That was not a church.
  • speaker
    And so I am ordained as an
  • speaker
    evangelist.
  • speaker
    Holly the Reformed
  • speaker
    Queer Presbyterian Evangelist.
  • speaker
    I think that that
  • speaker
    works for you though, because.
  • speaker
    It does, it really does.
  • speaker
    You know, you're you're
  • speaker
    all about creating community
  • speaker
    and bringing
  • speaker
    people in
  • speaker
    who may feel excluded.
  • speaker
    And so I think that that.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    Works really well for you.
  • speaker
    Yeah, it does.
  • speaker
    You're not just some stodgy old
  • speaker
    Presbyterian.
  • speaker
    No,
  • speaker
    ain't no regular rev.
  • speaker
    That's for.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    So post ordination.
  • speaker
    Are there any other
  • speaker
    pastoral capacities
  • speaker
    that you've served in that you'd
  • speaker
    like to talk about
  • speaker
    or reflect about?
  • speaker
    You should definitely talk about.
  • speaker
    Oh, okay.
  • speaker
    That's fun.
  • speaker
    So when
  • speaker
    KC was really
  • speaker
    just doing so well at First
  • speaker
    and Central, they
  • speaker
    met with a couple of funeral
  • speaker
    directors from McCrery and Harra,
  • speaker
    funeral home in Wilmington,
  • speaker
    Delaware.
  • speaker
    And they
  • speaker
    were looking to get the gay
  • speaker
    population at their funeral
  • speaker
    home.
  • speaker
    And so they asked Doug
  • speaker
    and KC, how do we do that?
  • speaker
    And then
  • speaker
    KC was like, you should just talk to
  • speaker
    them. So I talked to these guys.
  • speaker
    This is when my job was
  • speaker
    falling apart at the Big
  • speaker
    Gay Church.
  • speaker
    Well, not the gay church, with the
  • speaker
    1001.
  • speaker
    And so I needed
  • speaker
    money and I ended up doing
  • speaker
    about five funerals for them a week.
  • speaker
    Not not just the gay folks, anybody.
  • speaker
    And then, I
  • speaker
    mean, this went on for about a year
  • speaker
    and then they asked me if I wanted
  • speaker
    to be a funeral director.
  • speaker
    And so I was their female funeral
  • speaker
    director, and I did, all
  • speaker
    the things.
  • speaker
    All the things I never thought that
  • speaker
    I would do.
  • speaker
    And also was the in-house
  • speaker
    clergy. And,
  • speaker
    you know, that was one of the
  • speaker
    evangelism, you know, things.
  • speaker
    I you know, I called all these
  • speaker
    random people that I did their
  • speaker
    funerals for, you know, my
  • speaker
    congregation.
  • speaker
    And it was really such
  • speaker
    a joy to get
  • speaker
    to be able to serve
  • speaker
    in that capacity.
  • speaker
    And nobody cared.
  • speaker
    Nobody cared that I was a lesbian.
  • speaker
    Nobody cared that I was queer.
  • speaker
    Nobody.
  • speaker
    My coworkers didn't.
  • speaker
    And it was so interesting how
  • speaker
    different it was to go from being in
  • speaker
    the church to not being in the
  • speaker
    church.
  • speaker
    And then it's just a
  • speaker
    topic that is interesting
  • speaker
    but not on the table for discussion.
  • speaker
    You know? Yeah.
  • speaker
    You are also preaching at Delaware
  • speaker
    City.
  • speaker
    Oh, yeah. I was also preaching at
  • speaker
    Delaware City at that time.
  • speaker
    Oh, that's a good conversation.
  • speaker
    So this little fabulous church
  • speaker
    in Delaware City, Delaware,
  • speaker
    they needed any any pastor
  • speaker
    to do anything right.
  • speaker
    And so I agreed.
  • speaker
    And I really got to know and love
  • speaker
    them.
  • speaker
    You know, there were about 15 of
  • speaker
    them. I think 13
  • speaker
    of them voted for Trump.
  • speaker
    Well, I know.
  • speaker
    I know they did.
  • speaker
    It was not a match made in heaven.
  • speaker
    And we
  • speaker
    loved each other.
  • speaker
    We just adored each other.
  • speaker
    And they needed something.
  • speaker
    And I wanted to
  • speaker
    still be practicing as a pastor, as
  • speaker
    a preacher.
  • speaker
    And we just found
  • speaker
    a great love for each other in
  • speaker
    my little rural
  • speaker
    Delaware City church.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    So yeah, since ordination, I've
  • speaker
    primarily served in
  • speaker
    pretty traditional pastoral roles.
  • speaker
    While after I was
  • speaker
    ordained, I did serve as
  • speaker
    a minister member on the
  • speaker
    Committee on Ministry.
  • speaker
    I finished up
  • speaker
    somebody's one year term and then I
  • speaker
    did three more years
  • speaker
    and
  • speaker
    that was a
  • speaker
    great learning experience for me.
  • speaker
    You know,
  • speaker
    I don't know that I'll ever serve
  • speaker
    them again. But.
  • speaker
    But.
  • speaker
    But I learned a lot.
  • speaker
    I learned a lot.
  • speaker
    Um, when we
  • speaker
    left Wilmington,
  • speaker
    we moved to El Paso, Texas,
  • speaker
    to serve a church together
  • speaker
    as co-pastors.
  • speaker
    We moved in the summer of 2019,
  • speaker
    and we were there
  • speaker
    two years
  • speaker
    and so 2019 to
  • speaker
    2021. We were pretty much there
  • speaker
    all throughout COVID.
  • speaker
    And so that made that experience
  • speaker
    unique in a lot of ways
  • speaker
    and trying and serving together,
  • speaker
    which was new for us.
  • speaker
    So I don't know if you want
  • speaker
    to say anything about.
  • speaker
    Yeah, I don't know what to say about
  • speaker
    that.
  • speaker
    Yeah. So I, I went
  • speaker
    to, after
  • speaker
    the funeral home, I did go to a full
  • speaker
    time job at Calvary Presbyterian
  • speaker
    in Wilmington, Delaware.
  • speaker
    And they were wonderful,
  • speaker
    a wonderful congregation.
  • speaker
    We grew
  • speaker
    during that time and.
  • speaker
    You know, the little old ladies,
  • speaker
    they sent out a letter saying
  • speaker
    exactly who my spouse was.
  • speaker
    And, you know, I made it pretty
  • speaker
    obvious I wasn't hiding anything.
  • speaker
    But it took the little old ladies
  • speaker
    about three or four months to figure
  • speaker
    out that I was not married to
  • speaker
    KC, the man which is confusing
  • speaker
    because now I am married to KC, the
  • speaker
    man.
  • speaker
    But at the time, it was not KC, the
  • speaker
    man and.
  • speaker
    And they just.
  • speaker
    They had questions, but they just
  • speaker
    didn't care, the little old ladies,
  • speaker
    and we had a
  • speaker
    great time there also.
  • speaker
    I loved my time at Calvary,
  • speaker
    and I don't think I had any
  • speaker
    situations.
  • speaker
    In fact, we had several
  • speaker
    gay, well mostly gay folks, in the
  • speaker
    congregation.
  • speaker
    And they loved having me and, you
  • speaker
    know, feeling like they were
  • speaker
    completely included in
  • speaker
    the whole work of the church.
  • speaker
    And yeah, then we moved to El Paso,
  • speaker
    we thought it would be nice to get
  • speaker
    back to Texas.
  • speaker
    Well, this was, you know, right
  • speaker
    around the time that
  • speaker
    there was so much attention on the
  • speaker
    border, you know, the kids in cages.
  • speaker
    And we thought we want to be
  • speaker
    a part of border
  • speaker
    ministry.
  • speaker
    And the church that
  • speaker
    called us had a
  • speaker
    long established program
  • speaker
    helping folks who had just
  • speaker
    crossed the border just kind of in
  • speaker
    that first 48 hour period,
  • speaker
    making sure they had shoes, making
  • speaker
    sure they had a place to sleep,
  • speaker
    water, food, just your basic
  • speaker
    necessities.
  • speaker
    And so we were really drawn to that
  • speaker
    aspect of the work.
  • speaker
    Well.
  • speaker
    You know, almost instantly after
  • speaker
    Trump was elected, the borders
  • speaker
    closed, and it shut off
  • speaker
    all of our ability to to serve
  • speaker
    those people.
  • speaker
    And it wasn't safe to go across the
  • speaker
    border.
  • speaker
    And then,
  • speaker
    you know, right after that, COVID
  • speaker
    and.
  • speaker
    And that changed everything we
  • speaker
    know. And so that was
  • speaker
    just such a unique
  • speaker
    experience that,
  • speaker
    you know, every single expectation
  • speaker
    we had entering into that
  • speaker
    call with that church was just
  • speaker
    completely
  • speaker
    decimated.
  • speaker
    And on top of that,
  • speaker
    the, you know, our first Sunday
  • speaker
    there was going to be August 4th of
  • speaker
    2019.
  • speaker
    Well, August 3rd was
  • speaker
    when, you know, 22 people were
  • speaker
    killed at a Walmart.
  • speaker
    23 later on.
  • speaker
    23 people were killed
  • speaker
    at a Walmart in El Paso.
  • speaker
    And so that was, you know, 24
  • speaker
    hours before our first Sunday.
  • speaker
    So it was a kind of a tumultuous
  • speaker
    beginning and.
  • speaker
    At any rate, we won't talk too much
  • speaker
    about El Paso.
  • speaker
    Yeah. Yeah.
  • speaker
    I think it's safe to say, though,
  • speaker
    through El Paso, we're
  • speaker
    talking about LGBTQ history.
  • speaker
    That a church can't have a
  • speaker
    couple of people think it's okay.
  • speaker
    You need to have 98%
  • speaker
    of people on board.
  • speaker
    And this church wasn't, we we we
  • speaker
    were under the impression that they
  • speaker
    were and they were not.
  • speaker
    And that hurt us.
  • speaker
    It hurt us as individuals.
  • speaker
    It hurt us as a couple.
  • speaker
    It hurt us as a ministry
  • speaker
    because, you know, these little
  • speaker
    things, you know, they call them
  • speaker
    microaggressions for a reason.
  • speaker
    These little these little things
  • speaker
    that happen and they make you feel
  • speaker
    like crap and they make you feel
  • speaker
    like you're worthless and they make
  • speaker
    you feel like you're still fighting.
  • speaker
    And when I would say that when we
  • speaker
    were in El Paso, it reminded me
  • speaker
    of being on the pew by myself
  • speaker
    at University Presbyterian Church.
  • speaker
    You know, nobody said, I hate
  • speaker
    you.
  • speaker
    Nobody said, We want
  • speaker
    you gone.
  • speaker
    Well, not to our faces anyway.
  • speaker
    But you know, it.
  • speaker
    It was absolutely made known that
  • speaker
    you were not welcome.
  • speaker
    And so we did not last
  • speaker
    there.
  • speaker
    Well, yeah.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    I would say, though, also about
  • speaker
    El Paso is that the youth group
  • speaker
    was had
  • speaker
    several queer kids in it.
  • speaker
    And it makes me sad for
  • speaker
    churches like that, but.
  • speaker
    You know, churches that say they're
  • speaker
    welcome.
  • speaker
    But not really.
  • speaker
    Yeah, that's that.
  • speaker
    So how do you think these
  • speaker
    experiences and the various
  • speaker
    positions that you've been in, how
  • speaker
    have they changed
  • speaker
    your ministry?
  • speaker
    I mean, it's definitely been an
  • speaker
    evolution.
  • speaker
    You know.
  • speaker
    You learn so much from every
  • speaker
    experience because.
  • speaker
    Good, bad or otherwise.
  • speaker
    You know, so much of what we do as
  • speaker
    pastors is just full of meaning
  • speaker
    and purpose and heavy
  • speaker
    life stuff.
  • speaker
    Or, you know, even stuff that has
  • speaker
    to do with, you know, the
  • speaker
    organization, financial troubles
  • speaker
    or, you know.
  • speaker
    Infighting.
  • speaker
    You know, in grappling with
  • speaker
    building issues,
  • speaker
    you know, losing important members
  • speaker
    of the church.
  • speaker
    I mean, and so
  • speaker
    you you, of course, learn from
  • speaker
    every single thing
  • speaker
    that you do.
  • speaker
    You know, and I'll just say.
  • speaker
    I don't know if there's going to be
  • speaker
    a question later that might
  • speaker
    be more appropriate for this.
  • speaker
    But, you know, I guess just hearing
  • speaker
    us talk about this stuff
  • speaker
    again, things that we haven't really
  • speaker
    talked about in a long time and some
  • speaker
    things that were hurtful and painful
  • speaker
    is the work of ministry is
  • speaker
    hard enough, you know,
  • speaker
    and but dealing with
  • speaker
    little microaggressions
  • speaker
    and second guessing yourself.
  • speaker
    And, you know, am I taking this the
  • speaker
    wrong way? Am I perceiving this
  • speaker
    correctly?
  • speaker
    Am I making too big of a deal out of
  • speaker
    this?
  • speaker
    You know, wondering if you're safe
  • speaker
    around people that
  • speaker
    you may be serving on committees
  • speaker
    with or.
  • speaker
    Or a couple that you're marrying,
  • speaker
    you know?
  • speaker
    Or somebody you're doing, a family
  • speaker
    you're doing a funeral for.
  • speaker
    It's just it's kind of this ever
  • speaker
    present reality that
  • speaker
    in a profession that you're
  • speaker
    already so
  • speaker
    vulnerable just
  • speaker
    as a human being and and
  • speaker
    in the role that you're trying to
  • speaker
    play and.
  • speaker
    It's. It's just.
  • speaker
    I don't know. Can you.
  • speaker
    Can you help me out or do you
  • speaker
    understand what I'm trying to say?
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    But I don't know how to say it any
  • speaker
    better.
  • speaker
    Yeah. So while you were talking
  • speaker
    Kace. I
  • speaker
    think through my ministry, I've
  • speaker
    learned to when to buck up.
  • speaker
    So I was thinking, when
  • speaker
    you're talking about those little
  • speaker
    things that happen, I've learned
  • speaker
    on a seminary trip, we
  • speaker
    were it was kind of a
  • speaker
    place where we weren't going to have
  • speaker
    luxuries.
  • speaker
    And so there were four women to a
  • speaker
    room, and I got put in a room
  • speaker
    with people I thought were my
  • speaker
    friendly-ish friends.
  • speaker
    And it was very
  • speaker
    clear that they did not want me in
  • speaker
    their room, even though I could not
  • speaker
    have been interested in any of them.
  • speaker
    But and then
  • speaker
    just this just this last year,
  • speaker
    we were on a trip and KC
  • speaker
    wasn't gonna be able to go.
  • speaker
    And so I would be just assigned to
  • speaker
    a room with somebody. And I said to
  • speaker
    the person doing the assigning, I
  • speaker
    was like, Look, I'll pay for a room
  • speaker
    by myself.
  • speaker
    I don't want to be put with anyone.
  • speaker
    I never want to have to deal with
  • speaker
    that again.
  • speaker
    And so I've gotten more vocal,
  • speaker
    but even in getting more vocal.
  • speaker
    Then you feel.
  • speaker
    Like.
  • speaker
    You know, the angry
  • speaker
    queer.
  • speaker
    You know, you have to
  • speaker
    set yourself up.
  • speaker
    But they don't know that.
  • speaker
    They don't you don't tell that
  • speaker
    person every single issue
  • speaker
    that has led you to have to do
  • speaker
    this before an issue has happened.
  • speaker
    And yeah, I mean, I'm
  • speaker
    I'm on COM right now, and
  • speaker
    they wanted me to take moderator of
  • speaker
    a church.
  • speaker
    And I said, Will you ask?
  • speaker
    I'm not going to ask.
  • speaker
    Will you ask them if they
  • speaker
    are totally fine with me and
  • speaker
    if that is uncomfortable
  • speaker
    for them or not.
  • speaker
    And only then will I say yes to
  • speaker
    this. And so, you know.
  • speaker
    I know it's hard to put into words
  • speaker
    because.
  • speaker
    You know, you and I are both
  • speaker
    people that
  • speaker
    never want to appear like a victim.
  • speaker
    No.
  • speaker
    Or that we're making.
  • speaker
    Well, we're both great hosts.
  • speaker
    Yeah. That we're making ourselves
  • speaker
    the center of something or making
  • speaker
    something too big of a deal.
  • speaker
    And so but at the same
  • speaker
    time, we've learned over time
  • speaker
    that you have to self protect.
  • speaker
    Especially in the church, if almost
  • speaker
    exclusively within the church
  • speaker
    and no other time.
  • speaker
    Right. No other areas of our life do
  • speaker
    we have to do this.
  • speaker
    No, it's only in the church.
  • speaker
    Only in the church, unfortunately.
  • speaker
    So. Oh.
  • speaker
    The only other thing I was going to
  • speaker
    add to that is, you know, we
  • speaker
    talked earlier about
  • speaker
    wanting to use the seminary
  • speaker
    chapel for our covenant blessing
  • speaker
    ceremony. And,
  • speaker
    you know, the administration
  • speaker
    ultimately saying no to
  • speaker
    that. And, you know, we ended up
  • speaker
    having the ceremony anyway, but it
  • speaker
    was just off campus at another site.
  • speaker
    You know, you can't go through
  • speaker
    something like that.
  • speaker
    And as a.
  • speaker
    A pastor as somebody who's, and
  • speaker
    preacher, somebody whose job it is
  • speaker
    to stand up every week and
  • speaker
    interpret the gospel and
  • speaker
    not have
  • speaker
    that element be a part of
  • speaker
    your ministry of, it is
  • speaker
    so important, you know, because
  • speaker
    the church is an institution.
  • speaker
    We can't not
  • speaker
    do justice because it's
  • speaker
    it might ruffle some feathers
  • speaker
    or.
  • speaker
    Or not get money.
  • speaker
    Or. Yeah.
  • speaker
    Because people might not donate
  • speaker
    or might stop pledging
  • speaker
    or. Yeah, exactly.
  • speaker
    You know, you you kind of
  • speaker
    you're like, this is where the
  • speaker
    rubber meets the road.
  • speaker
    You can like it or not.
  • speaker
    But, you know, our call is
  • speaker
    to stand up for
  • speaker
    people that have been marginalized
  • speaker
    by the church,
  • speaker
    by society, by the world.
  • speaker
    And there aren't really any ifs,
  • speaker
    ands or buts about it.
  • speaker
    Yeah, Well, what you said.
  • speaker
    Okay, yeah, I've got a couple more
  • speaker
    things. So.
  • speaker
    Going back to the not being able
  • speaker
    to use the chapel at seminary
  • speaker
    for our ceremony,
  • speaker
    I had never in my life understood
  • speaker
    why people got so angry because
  • speaker
    I'd never had anything happen to me
  • speaker
    right like that. I'd never had
  • speaker
    anything. I'd never been
  • speaker
    discriminated against for any reason
  • speaker
    whatsoever, even being a woman.
  • speaker
    Somehow I was always able to
  • speaker
    be in the boys' club.
  • speaker
    And so this was the first time
  • speaker
    in my life that I had ever had
  • speaker
    to deal with this.
  • speaker
    And I was angry.
  • speaker
    I was so angry.
  • speaker
    And then then come
  • speaker
    through all the ordination stuff.
  • speaker
    And I was just angry, so
  • speaker
    angry at people.
  • speaker
    And I wanted an apology.
  • speaker
    And nobody seemed to be giving me
  • speaker
    one.
  • speaker
    And then I
  • speaker
    read something, I think
  • speaker
    you shared it with me.
  • speaker
    There is some quote or paragraph
  • speaker
    or something that was about
  • speaker
    that if you don't get an apology,
  • speaker
    you have to find one or the world
  • speaker
    will give you one.
  • speaker
    Be on the lookout for it.
  • speaker
    Something like that.
  • speaker
    And I
  • speaker
    was thinking about the chapel
  • speaker
    when we got to do queer prom.
  • speaker
    We did queer prom
  • speaker
    for the high
  • speaker
    school students of Delaware.
  • speaker
    It was pretty much they were busing
  • speaker
    kids in from all over
  • speaker
    the state of Delaware.
  • speaker
    And it was at the First and Central
  • speaker
    Presbyterian Church in their
  • speaker
    fellowship hall.
  • speaker
    And it was fabulous.
  • speaker
    And I felt like that was
  • speaker
    the world's apology
  • speaker
    to me to get to
  • speaker
    be a part of that, to get to see
  • speaker
    these students, to get to see some
  • speaker
    of their their queer
  • speaker
    sponsors or their parents,
  • speaker
    that that was a really
  • speaker
    cool thing. And so I think since
  • speaker
    then, I've always looked out for
  • speaker
    that apology. I know I'm not going
  • speaker
    to get apologies for things,
  • speaker
    especially queer things, but
  • speaker
    I keep finding them.
  • speaker
    You did have that experience at GA.
  • speaker
    Oh, that's true.
  • speaker
    We did.
  • speaker
    Or I did. Yeah.
  • speaker
    Yeah, the.
  • speaker
    What was her name?
  • speaker
    Do you remember?
  • speaker
    I don't remember.
  • speaker
    She was the a presbyter from
  • speaker
    Mission.
  • speaker
    And I had told some
  • speaker
    of my story.
  • speaker
    Sallie Watson?
  • speaker
    Sallie, was it Sallie?
  • speaker
    I don't think she was there. Okay.
  • speaker
    Anyway.
  • speaker
    Somebody some official
  • speaker
    from Mission Presbytery
  • speaker
    after GA. I told some my story
  • speaker
    and she said, Please tell me that
  • speaker
    wasn't Mission.
  • speaker
    And I said it was.
  • speaker
    And she sent me a letter
  • speaker
    and a Book of Order with
  • speaker
    my name
  • speaker
    embossed on it and
  • speaker
    an actual official apology.
  • speaker
    That was cool.
  • speaker
    That was cool.
  • speaker
    Yeah, yeah.
  • speaker
    What else?
  • speaker
    Feel like I was thinking something
  • speaker
    else.
  • speaker
    Maybe it'll come up in another one.
  • speaker
    Yeah. Yeah.
  • speaker
    Okay.
  • speaker
    Okay.
  • speaker
    Would you be willing to reflect
  • speaker
    on the struggle for LGBTQIA+
  • speaker
    plus ordination and marriage
  • speaker
    rights within the Presbyterian
  • speaker
    Church?
  • speaker
    I'm going to need a drink after
  • speaker
    this.
  • speaker
    So I guess more broadly, but also
  • speaker
    if you want to reflect
  • speaker
    on any of
  • speaker
    your experiences, your involvement
  • speaker
    in that.
  • speaker
    So one of the cool things that
  • speaker
    happened to me and to us
  • speaker
    was we got to go to Presbyterian Gay
  • speaker
    Camp. It wasn't called that.
  • speaker
    That's what we called it.
  • speaker
    It was the Pres Welcome that's
  • speaker
    also now known as Parity.
  • speaker
    I don't know if there's any other
  • speaker
    emerging Presbyterians anyway.
  • speaker
    They held a camp for
  • speaker
    queer folks under care or
  • speaker
    ordained, although I don't think
  • speaker
    anybody was ordained at that point
  • speaker
    except maybe Mieke.
  • speaker
    But.
  • speaker
    That was pretty pivotal in me
  • speaker
    learning more about the history,
  • speaker
    not just what I was embroiled in at
  • speaker
    the moment, which was,
  • speaker
    you know, my own selfish
  • speaker
    wants to get married and in
  • speaker
    hopes to be ordained.
  • speaker
    But that's when I found out
  • speaker
    about the guy who
  • speaker
    stood up in GA
  • speaker
    on the floor of GA.
  • speaker
    And it was like in
  • speaker
    1977?
  • speaker
    Sometime in the seventies.
  • speaker
    Sometime in the seventies.
  • speaker
    In the seventies.
  • speaker
    I can't imagine doing this.
  • speaker
    David Sindt.
  • speaker
    David Sindt. Yeah, I can't imagine
  • speaker
    doing it in the early 2000s.
  • speaker
    But he raised the sign up and said,
  • speaker
    Anyone else out there gay?
  • speaker
    And I thought that was
  • speaker
    really cool.
  • speaker
    And so part of my
  • speaker
    following the
  • speaker
    marriage and ordination
  • speaker
    within the Church has been
  • speaker
    standing on the shoulders of
  • speaker
    the folks who have gone before me,
  • speaker
    really getting to learn their
  • speaker
    histories, learn their stories,
  • speaker
    learn their struggles and see what
  • speaker
    they did with it.
  • speaker
    You know, meeting Janie Spahr, Lisa Larges, Bear Ride.
  • speaker
    You know, there's getting
  • speaker
    to see them
  • speaker
    and then, you know, just walk
  • speaker
    on their shoulders throughout
  • speaker
    the process was really important to
  • speaker
    me that it wasn't about getting
  • speaker
    marriage in 2010,
  • speaker
    it was about getting marriage
  • speaker
    from the beginning of time.
  • speaker
    The catch up.
  • speaker
    Yeah. And I would also add,
  • speaker
    you know, advocacy organizations
  • speaker
    like More Light Presbyterians and
  • speaker
    Covenant Network
  • speaker
    did incredible work,
  • speaker
    you know,
  • speaker
    as organizations.
  • speaker
    And I mean,
  • speaker
    that's.
  • speaker
    You know, as Holly and I have
  • speaker
    both said, we both
  • speaker
    children of the church, involved,
  • speaker
    families who are involved, did
  • speaker
    everything right, you know.
  • speaker
    Participated
  • speaker
    in the life of our
  • speaker
    churches and our seminaries.
  • speaker
    And and yet this one
  • speaker
    little thing, you know,
  • speaker
    was such a huge barrier.
  • speaker
    And to have organizations,
  • speaker
    you know, stand up for you,
  • speaker
    you know, as people of so much
  • speaker
    privilege that was
  • speaker
    huge.
  • speaker
    That sense that there's
  • speaker
    whole groups of people
  • speaker
    championing us and this
  • speaker
    cause for people like us.
  • speaker
    So.
  • speaker
    That was such a powerful
  • speaker
    feeling.
  • speaker
    I felt like we were at that point
  • speaker
    along for the ride.
  • speaker
    You know, I hadn't I hadn't done
  • speaker
    the advocacy work for years and
  • speaker
    years and years.
  • speaker
    I'd only done it when
  • speaker
    I got there.
  • speaker
    And so I don't feel like
  • speaker
    I can speak much to that.
  • speaker
    We did.
  • speaker
    KC and I stood up for the overture
  • speaker
    for inclusion of trans folks
  • speaker
    in ordination, so I felt like
  • speaker
    I was a part of that because I
  • speaker
    actually did use my own voice.
  • speaker
    But even then I just feel so
  • speaker
    grateful for being able to
  • speaker
    step in when I did.
  • speaker
    And that timing was right for
  • speaker
    me. And, you know, it
  • speaker
    could have been worse for me.
  • speaker
    It could have been a lot worse for
  • speaker
    me. I could have never
  • speaker
    completed seminary.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    Yeah. And with
  • speaker
    marriage, you know, we were already
  • speaker
    legally married because
  • speaker
    that was in 20.
  • speaker
    It was GA 2014, but
  • speaker
    it was ratified in 2015.
  • speaker
    14-F.
  • speaker
    Amendment 14-F.
  • speaker
    Which changed the language around
  • speaker
    marriage in the Book of Order.
  • speaker
    So, yeah, you and I had already been
  • speaker
    married for
  • speaker
    four years at that time.
  • speaker
    But we realized that
  • speaker
    the amendment was going to get
  • speaker
    ratified right at the same time
  • speaker
    that we were going to be ordained.
  • speaker
    I mean, and so.
  • speaker
    Which is why we got so much press.
  • speaker
    We got so much coverage
  • speaker
    because of our joint.
  • speaker
    You know, we first married,
  • speaker
    you know, same sex couple.
  • speaker
    Jointly ordained in the PC(USA).
  • speaker
    And this happened right on the heels
  • speaker
    of marriage equality.
  • speaker
    And which in a lot of ways
  • speaker
    was was wonderful,
  • speaker
    I think at the time.
  • speaker
    You know, I.
  • speaker
    I didn't appreciate it as much as I
  • speaker
    should have
  • speaker
    because in
  • speaker
    my little mind, like I had waited
  • speaker
    so long to be ordained
  • speaker
    and.
  • speaker
    I didn't know that I necessarily
  • speaker
    wanted to address all of these other
  • speaker
    issues,
  • speaker
    but that's kind of like me and my
  • speaker
    personality. I'm not really a
  • speaker
    multi-tasker.
  • speaker
    That's the truth.
  • speaker
    But.
  • speaker
    Well and you take the church very
  • speaker
    seriously and you took ordination
  • speaker
    very seriously and so you didn't
  • speaker
    you know, I think that is one thing
  • speaker
    about being queer and in the
  • speaker
    spotlight is that everything turns
  • speaker
    to that and people
  • speaker
    think that's what your ministry is,
  • speaker
    that's who you are.
  • speaker
    And there's just so much more to
  • speaker
    you.
  • speaker
    Right. Exactly.
  • speaker
    So it can be frustrating.
  • speaker
    Yeah. I think that's well said.
  • speaker
    And you know, again, like.
  • speaker
    Because of all of the
  • speaker
    coverage, you know, USA
  • speaker
    Today, HuffPost,
  • speaker
    The Washington Post.
  • speaker
    I mean, it was everywhere.
  • speaker
    NPR.
  • speaker
    NPR.
  • speaker
    And with that kind
  • speaker
    of attention, people
  • speaker
    are going to come out of the woodwork
  • speaker
    and say some really ugly,
  • speaker
    nasty, hurtful things
  • speaker
    during this period of your life
  • speaker
    where you're
  • speaker
    supposed to be celebrating
  • speaker
    and focusing on
  • speaker
    those things and
  • speaker
    the church and your ministry
  • speaker
    and.
  • speaker
    And so it was like we could never
  • speaker
    really get away from
  • speaker
    the negativity.
  • speaker
    Even in
  • speaker
    this like on this red letter
  • speaker
    day. You know,
  • speaker
    it was just kind of ever present.
  • speaker
    But.
  • speaker
    Interesting to talk about that
  • speaker
    because I think I think during some
  • speaker
    of this stuff, during some of this
  • speaker
    time was the first time that our
  • speaker
    families had seen some
  • speaker
    of the true hate that people say.
  • speaker
    And
  • speaker
    I think that was eye opening for
  • speaker
    them. So when,
  • speaker
    you know, when things started
  • speaker
    hitting, when there was
  • speaker
    marriage equality, when there was
  • speaker
    ordination, I think
  • speaker
    then they started seeing, oh, my
  • speaker
    kid got written up in the, what was
  • speaker
    that thing called? The Layman?
  • speaker
    That horrible, wow.
  • speaker
    My kid got written up in there and
  • speaker
    it was not good,
  • speaker
    you know?
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    Yeah. And, you know.
  • speaker
    People making comments like
  • speaker
    they have reptilian eyes.
  • speaker
    Yeah that was the best. I remember that one.
  • speaker
    Like clearly they are demonic.
  • speaker
    They're no not just demonic,
  • speaker
    just demons.
  • speaker
    Demons yeah.
  • speaker
    And.
  • speaker
    And you think, Oh, that's so silly.
  • speaker
    It was really painful at the time.
  • speaker
    But it gets it gets
  • speaker
    to you. You know, you're human
  • speaker
    and.
  • speaker
    And I think your eyes are very
  • speaker
    pretty.
  • speaker
    Well, thank you.
  • speaker
    What else?
  • speaker
    What makes you hopeful about
  • speaker
    the future of the Presbyterian
  • speaker
    Church? And on the
  • speaker
    other side of that, what
  • speaker
    do you think there
  • speaker
    needs to be improvement
  • speaker
    in?
  • speaker
    Well, I haven't touched
  • speaker
    on this yet, but,
  • speaker
    you know, a little over a year
  • speaker
    ago, I came out as trans
  • speaker
    and started hormone therapy
  • speaker
    and had, you know,
  • speaker
    gender affirming surgery.
  • speaker
    And but
  • speaker
    after we left the church in El Paso,
  • speaker
    I took a year off to really discern.
  • speaker
    To discern and to just
  • speaker
    take a break, you know, after
  • speaker
    COVID and,
  • speaker
    you know, we moved up here to
  • speaker
    western New York.
  • speaker
    We live in Fredonia in New York now.
  • speaker
    Go Bills.
  • speaker
    Bills. Yeah, and.
  • speaker
    And I and because of so much
  • speaker
    we've already said
  • speaker
    in this oral history,
  • speaker
    I just thought, even though
  • speaker
    I knew that this is what
  • speaker
    God was calling me to do
  • speaker
    and to be.
  • speaker
    I just thought, Can I go through
  • speaker
    this again?
  • speaker
    You know.
  • speaker
    You know, it was hard enough being
  • speaker
    a same sex couple in
  • speaker
    the church.
  • speaker
    Can I go through this
  • speaker
    as a trans person?
  • speaker
    And,
  • speaker
    you know, even though there were
  • speaker
    others who had
  • speaker
    paved the way, I just from
  • speaker
    a personal place, I
  • speaker
    just do I have the strength
  • speaker
    to do this?
  • speaker
    And so I really took a lot of time
  • speaker
    to think about that and.
  • speaker
    There was a little church
  • speaker
    here in western New
  • speaker
    York in a little town called
  • speaker
    Gowanda. It's about 25 minutes from
  • speaker
    us. And they were
  • speaker
    just looking for someone
  • speaker
    very part time.
  • speaker
    You know, they're small,
  • speaker
    probably about 50 members.
  • speaker
    And I had
  • speaker
    already been doing a good bit
  • speaker
    of pulpit supply for them
  • speaker
    over the last several
  • speaker
    months.
  • speaker
    And we had kind of established
  • speaker
    this connection with each other
  • speaker
    and this rapport and.
  • speaker
    And at any rate, you know, they they
  • speaker
    wanted to to have me be their
  • speaker
    stated supply
  • speaker
    and.
  • speaker
    So I said, Yeah,
  • speaker
    let's have a conversation about it.
  • speaker
    And, you know, in the course of
  • speaker
    having the conversation, I was just
  • speaker
    very
  • speaker
    honest and straightforward.
  • speaker
    And I said,
  • speaker
    I'm trans.
  • speaker
    I'm going to
  • speaker
    be starting my, you know, medical
  • speaker
    transition in about a month.
  • speaker
    I just want to be completely
  • speaker
    transparent.
  • speaker
    You know, but
  • speaker
    I love you guys.
  • speaker
    And if you want me,
  • speaker
    you know you can have me.
  • speaker
    I would love to be
  • speaker
    your pastor.
  • speaker
    And, you know, they took all
  • speaker
    of 10 seconds to
  • speaker
    think it over and they said, Well,
  • speaker
    absolutely, we want you.
  • speaker
    We love you.
  • speaker
    And.
  • speaker
    You know, this is a rural
  • speaker
    church, you know, right outside of
  • speaker
    an Indian reservation.
  • speaker
    And.
  • speaker
    You know, when I drive to this
  • speaker
    church every Sunday, I pass rows
  • speaker
    and rows of Trump flags.
  • speaker
    And, you know, I guess
  • speaker
    that wasn't the response I
  • speaker
    was expecting. I was expecting
  • speaker
    them for them to say, Well we
  • speaker
    need to pray about it.
  • speaker
    We really need think about it.
  • speaker
    But no, it was
  • speaker
    it was like a no brainer.
  • speaker
    And it was because
  • speaker
    it just that it felt like
  • speaker
    a good fit on a mutual
  • speaker
    fit and.
  • speaker
    A few months later,
  • speaker
    I kind of officially
  • speaker
    came out to the entire
  • speaker
    congregation during a sermon.
  • speaker
    And of course,
  • speaker
    a lot of them you know already knew.
  • speaker
    But.
  • speaker
    And it happened to be kind of a low,
  • speaker
    Sunday. Like I think there were only
  • speaker
    maybe 20 people there in church.
  • speaker
    But of those 20 people,
  • speaker
    three of them had
  • speaker
    trans or gender nonconforming
  • speaker
    kids and.
  • speaker
    And when it was, it was over
  • speaker
    the sermon. You know, I kind of took
  • speaker
    a deep breath and they all stood up
  • speaker
    and gave me a standing ovation.
  • speaker
    You know.
  • speaker
    That's so cool.
  • speaker
    And so, you know, you
  • speaker
    bookend that moment with, you know,
  • speaker
    so much of the stuff that we've
  • speaker
    already recounted
  • speaker
    and.
  • speaker
    It was so affirming and
  • speaker
    I couldn't think of a more hopeful
  • speaker
    moment.
  • speaker
    You know,
  • speaker
    when you're when you're living it
  • speaker
    every minute, you know,
  • speaker
    change seems to be and progress
  • speaker
    seems so slow.
  • speaker
    But you get to a moment like that
  • speaker
    and.
  • speaker
    You. You you're kind of at a
  • speaker
    mountaintop and you can kind of look
  • speaker
    back and see how far
  • speaker
    the denomination has come.
  • speaker
    And it's through these
  • speaker
    little individual experiences,
  • speaker
    you know, it's not through some
  • speaker
    big theological discourse
  • speaker
    or. Well, the denomination
  • speaker
    changed the Book of Order,
  • speaker
    therefore, I'm going to change my
  • speaker
    opinion. You know, that's
  • speaker
    just not how it works.
  • speaker
    You know, people hearts change
  • speaker
    through experience and.
  • speaker
    You know, even though Holly and I
  • speaker
    both never wanted our ministries
  • speaker
    to be about sexuality
  • speaker
    or gender or
  • speaker
    any of those things that
  • speaker
    weren't even in our minds
  • speaker
    when we first sensed a call
  • speaker
    to ministry.
  • speaker
    I think, you know, and this
  • speaker
    is what we tell people all the time
  • speaker
    when we're preaching, is that God's
  • speaker
    going to use you the way God's going
  • speaker
    to use you.
  • speaker
    You know, we don't always
  • speaker
    get to choose for ourselves.
  • speaker
    And, you know, we you know, we pray
  • speaker
    to be instruments and we better
  • speaker
    be prepared for God to answer that
  • speaker
    prayer in us.
  • speaker
    You know.
  • speaker
    So it's.
  • speaker
    That was a that was a hugely hopeful
  • speaker
    moment where I felt very privileged
  • speaker
    to be in that place.
  • speaker
    Yeah, it was a good moment.
  • speaker
    I wish I could have been there.
  • speaker
    Me, too.
  • speaker
    So my church that
  • speaker
    I'm in now, the
  • speaker
    one of the co-chairs of the PNC,
  • speaker
    the committee that hired me, what
  • speaker
    they do for a living is write
  • speaker
    lesbian erotica and
  • speaker
    romance books.
  • speaker
    That's what they do for a living.
  • speaker
    And the church,
  • speaker
    when this couple
  • speaker
    first started coming here years ago,
  • speaker
    when they moved to Fredonia,
  • speaker
    you know, they
  • speaker
    they're parents and they had a baby
  • speaker
    and people just wanted to hold that
  • speaker
    baby.
  • speaker
    And there were a couple
  • speaker
    of people that left the church.
  • speaker
    And since then, the church has been
  • speaker
    just fine.
  • speaker
    And they have
  • speaker
    loved this couple and
  • speaker
    their son immensely.
  • speaker
    And then I get here
  • speaker
    and.
  • speaker
    We are like,
  • speaker
    I keep having to ask people,
  • speaker
    how do I do this
  • speaker
    growth? We are growing so
  • speaker
    much that I am overwhelmed
  • speaker
    by growth.
  • speaker
    We do have a lot of queer
  • speaker
    folks joining and they're
  • speaker
    young.
  • speaker
    Some are older, but some
  • speaker
    are young.
  • speaker
    They're coming from no church or
  • speaker
    they're coming from more evangelical
  • speaker
    fundamentalist churches
  • speaker
    and they're really
  • speaker
    inspiring me and pushing me
  • speaker
    to do more.
  • speaker
    Say more. Be better.
  • speaker
    Be a better preacher.
  • speaker
    Be a better thinker.
  • speaker
    And what I'm seeing
  • speaker
    is the more that our churches
  • speaker
    really get in tune with
  • speaker
    what it means to be an LGBTQIA+
  • speaker
    Christian, and what it means to be
  • speaker
    a church that flies
  • speaker
    the flag.
  • speaker
    I think then we start opening
  • speaker
    ourselves up to so much else you
  • speaker
    know, because
  • speaker
    once you say,
  • speaker
    okay, I need to explore
  • speaker
    what this looks like in my own
  • speaker
    theology, in my own biblical
  • speaker
    understanding.
  • speaker
    I think then you see the Bible
  • speaker
    more clearly and less clearly all at
  • speaker
    the same time. And I think that's
  • speaker
    what we need more of, is to see the
  • speaker
    Bible less clearly because we
  • speaker
    think we know it so well.
  • speaker
    And the more that I'm
  • speaker
    seeing that happen, the more my
  • speaker
    church is growing.
  • speaker
    And I think so many people
  • speaker
    in this world right now came
  • speaker
    out of COVID and
  • speaker
    were thirsty for
  • speaker
    love, companionship, volunteer
  • speaker
    work, connection.
  • speaker
    And I think my church
  • speaker
    is is finding the folks
  • speaker
    that don't want just
  • speaker
    the
  • speaker
    Bible to be thrown at them.
  • speaker
    They want to be challenged.
  • speaker
    And I think a lot of it is because
  • speaker
    the PC(USA) has been
  • speaker
    a prominent denomination
  • speaker
    in LGBTQIA+
  • speaker
    rights, and
  • speaker
    I think we queer folks are changing
  • speaker
    the church for
  • speaker
    the better.
  • speaker
    And I see it.
  • speaker
    I see it happening.
  • speaker
    I think, you know, once
  • speaker
    the little old lady
  • speaker
    calls your spouse,
  • speaker
    Oh, look at that handsome man.
  • speaker
    I'm so proud of him.
  • speaker
    Once that happens after they knew my
  • speaker
    spouse another way.
  • speaker
    I think you get.
  • speaker
    You just get better church,
  • speaker
    you get better Jesus moments.
  • speaker
    And I'm very hopeful that
  • speaker
    the church is becoming that.
  • speaker
    On the other hand,
  • speaker
    big churches aren't doing enough.
  • speaker
    Big churches with lots of money
  • speaker
    who are More Light churches who
  • speaker
    fly the flags in every
  • speaker
    end of every campus that they own.
  • speaker
    They are still
  • speaker
    hiring straight white
  • speaker
    men.
  • speaker
    And that's not good enough.
  • speaker
    There are plenty of non
  • speaker
    straight white men.
  • speaker
    There are plenty of queer pastors
  • speaker
    out there that are
  • speaker
    better or just as good as.
  • speaker
    And they're not hiring us.
  • speaker
    They're just not hiring us.
  • speaker
    And if they want
  • speaker
    to say it's because of, you know,
  • speaker
    what's the word when you have time.
  • speaker
    History.
  • speaker
    You know you build up, experience.
  • speaker
    There we go.
  • speaker
    If they want to say, it's because
  • speaker
    you don't have the experience.
  • speaker
    Well, how are you supposed to have
  • speaker
    the experience when you had to fight
  • speaker
    for your ordination in 2010?
  • speaker
    And the church needs
  • speaker
    to be doing better. The church needs
  • speaker
    to be holding those churches
  • speaker
    up to the wall and saying,
  • speaker
    You are not living out what you say
  • speaker
    you are.
  • speaker
    And that, it makes me mad.
  • speaker
    But more hope.
  • speaker
    Yay Jesus.
  • speaker
    Those are really great insights.
  • speaker
    So before we end, I just want to
  • speaker
    give you a chance to share
  • speaker
    anything else that you were hoping
  • speaker
    to touch on that you didn't have a
  • speaker
    chance to.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    KC and were talking about Oh,
  • speaker
    gosh.
  • speaker
    You know, what are we going to bring
  • speaker
    up? What are we not going to bring
  • speaker
    up?
  • speaker
    How honest are we going to be in
  • speaker
    this conversation?
  • speaker
    And we said, let's just
  • speaker
    be really honest, because
  • speaker
    so many people don't hear
  • speaker
    these stories because we feel like
  • speaker
    we have to save them from them.
  • speaker
    We feel like we shouldn't traumatize
  • speaker
    you know the straight folks,
  • speaker
    that they don't want to hear those
  • speaker
    stories anyway.
  • speaker
    And we thought it's important
  • speaker
    to tell truths even
  • speaker
    when they make you cry.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    Thank you.
  • speaker
    Yeah. Thank you so much for
  • speaker
    thinking of us in this opportunity.
  • speaker
    Yes and for listening to us for an
  • speaker
    hour and 15 minutes.
  • speaker
    Thank you, I'm going to stop the
  • speaker
    recording.
  • speaker
    Okay.
  • speaker
    Okay.
Details
Title

Holly and KC Clark-Porter oral history, 2023.

Description

Reverend Holly Clark-Porter and Reverend KC Clark-Porter discuss growing up in Texas; attendance of Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary; their joint ordination service at First & Central Presbyterian Church in Wilmington, Delaware (Newcastle Presbytery); the pastoral capacities in which they've served the Church; and the barriers they faced during their ordinations and ministerial work. They reflect on the fight for marriage and ordination rights of LGBTQIA+ Presbyterians within the Church. Additionally, KC reflects on coming out as trans and life as a transgender man.

Creator

Clark-Porter, Holly. (interviewee)
Clark-Porter, KC. (interviewee)
Shilstut, Natalie. (interviewer)

Date

2023
July 18, 2023

Type of resource

moving image

Genre

interviews
oral histories

Form

born digital
video recordings

Extent

575 MB (1 MP4 file)

Subject names

Clark-Porter, Holly.
Clark-Porter, KC.
Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary.
Presbyterian Welcome (Organization)
First & Central Presbyterian Church (Wilmington, Del.)

Topics

Ordination of gays--Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)
Ordination of lesbians--Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)
Homophobia.
Same-sex marriage--Religious aspects--Presbyterians.
Transgender men.

Geographic subjects

El Paso (Tex.)
Wilmington (Del.)
Fredonia (N.Y.)
North and Central America--United States--New York--Chautauqua--Fredonia
North and Central America--United States--Delaware--New Castle--Wilmington
North and Central America--United States--Texas--El Paso--El Paso

Rights status

IN COPYRIGHT - NON-COMMERCIAL USE PERMITTED; http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/

Physical location

ARCHIVES 23-0711; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA

Related item

Holly and KC Clark-Porter oral history, 2023.--https://prestohost68.inmagic.com/Presto/content/Detail.aspx?ctID=Y2RiNWN...

Identifier (local)

23-0711_clark_porter

PID (Persistent Identifier)

islandora:345294

Bookmark

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