Interview of Dean H. Lewis by R. Douglas Brackenridge, Tape 2, Side 1.

Primary tabs

Download

  • speaker
    Let's continue to
  • speaker
    enumerate any of these major.
  • speaker
    Talking about the educational
  • speaker
    and church wide study thing
  • speaker
    and the fact that in the
  • speaker
    study on peacemaking and resistance,
  • speaker
    we had made the most ambitious
  • speaker
    effort to date to try to get
  • speaker
    a church wide study in advance of
  • speaker
    the General Assembly
  • speaker
    policy declaration.
  • speaker
    And the fascinating thing to me
  • speaker
    was that some of the quarters
  • speaker
    in the church that have screamed
  • speaker
    the loudest about the General
  • speaker
    Assembly sounding
  • speaker
    off and making pronouncements
  • speaker
    without having any consultation
  • speaker
    with the rest of the church or
  • speaker
    advanced knowledge or anything,
  • speaker
    are the ones who have fought
  • speaker
    the hardest this
  • speaker
    process of study and response
  • speaker
    to the Advisory Council,
  • speaker
    which was our attempt to say
  • speaker
    in advance of the Assembly's action,
  • speaker
    we want everybody studying these and
  • speaker
    giving us their opinions.
  • speaker
    And these folk were just generally
  • speaker
    driven up the wall by
  • speaker
    that.
  • speaker
    They, they just they just
  • speaker
    literally went out of their minds.
  • speaker
    And as you read some of the kinds of
  • speaker
    comments, I think it's terribly
  • speaker
    funny that either they don't
  • speaker
    understand the situation, which
  • speaker
    I think may be the case.
  • speaker
    They're so oriented to a philosophy
  • speaker
    that the the staff
  • speaker
    up there is craftily
  • speaker
    running everything that they
  • speaker
    don't believe that this is a genuine
  • speaker
    study process.
  • speaker
    It was out there. They think that
  • speaker
    the staff's already decided, this is
  • speaker
    just a way of softening everybody
  • speaker
    else up or
  • speaker
    they simply don't really
  • speaker
    trust the rest of the church
  • speaker
    out there to, when
  • speaker
    asked for opinions, to come up with
  • speaker
    the opinion that they want them to
  • speaker
    come up with.
  • speaker
    I think there's some truth in that.
  • speaker
    I believe deep down a lot of those
  • speaker
    folk understand that they really
  • speaker
    are not the massive majority
  • speaker
    in the church's life they
  • speaker
    loudly proclaim themselves to be.
  • speaker
    And anything that that
  • speaker
    reveals that definitively,
  • speaker
    that they really don't speak for 90%
  • speaker
    of the laypeople in the church,
  • speaker
    they're going to resist.
  • speaker
    That's why you never see them.
  • speaker
    One reason why I think you hardly
  • speaker
    ever see them giving any attention
  • speaker
    whatsoever to the data that has
  • speaker
    turned up year after year through
  • speaker
    the Presbyterian Panel
  • speaker
    because it simply does not square
  • speaker
    with the picture of the Church's
  • speaker
    attitudes and commitments and hopes
  • speaker
    that they constantly trumpet
  • speaker
    as representing the great grassroots
  • speaker
    of the church.
  • speaker
    Can we identify they at all?
  • speaker
    Well you're talking here, PUBC,
  • speaker
    Presbyterian Lay Committee, PDRF,
  • speaker
    COFOP,
  • speaker
    that that list
  • speaker
    of right wing,
  • speaker
    politically oriented Chapter nine
  • speaker
    organizations.
  • speaker
    Now that's about as clear and
  • speaker
    inflammatory description of them
  • speaker
    as you can find.
  • speaker
    I do think for the most
  • speaker
    part, PUBC is a little different
  • speaker
    than this. The others, I think are
  • speaker
    for the most part, politically
  • speaker
    oriented and motivated, not
  • speaker
    theologically motivated
  • speaker
    organizations.
  • speaker
    They're institutional politics
  • speaker
    driven, not theological
  • speaker
    concerns.
  • speaker
    PUBC is a different
  • speaker
    animal. I think
  • speaker
    going all the way back to their
  • speaker
    rooting in the struggle over
  • speaker
    confession of 67,
  • speaker
    I think there is a genuine
  • speaker
    evangelical theological
  • speaker
    concern at the heart of that.
  • speaker
    I mean, they get into the politics
  • speaker
    of things as well, but
  • speaker
    they're there.
  • speaker
    And interesting enough, therefore,
  • speaker
    it is much easier to engage a
  • speaker
    lot of them in in genuine
  • speaker
    conversation and discussion
  • speaker
    than it is some of the Lay Committee
  • speaker
    or PDRF types,
  • speaker
    because all they can see is,
  • speaker
    you know, your McGovernites,
  • speaker
    they use secular political
  • speaker
    categories to try to carry on
  • speaker
    a discussion in the church about the
  • speaker
    church's beliefs and activities.
  • speaker
    And, you know, how how can you talk
  • speaker
    to folk inside
  • speaker
    the fellowship of a theological
  • speaker
    institution and
  • speaker
    community that that that wanted
  • speaker
    that want to define the debate in
  • speaker
    secular political ideology terms?
  • speaker
    You just you can only go so far
  • speaker
    and then you just have to just
  • speaker
    try to find some way of getting out
  • speaker
    it.
  • speaker
    Well, that's
  • speaker
    you know, there's a
  • speaker
    we can get a more coherent framework
  • speaker
    sometimes for looking at positions
  • speaker
    over 20 years.
  • speaker
    I guess one thing I would say is
  • speaker
    that
  • speaker
    there are a couple of
  • speaker
    interesting issues,
  • speaker
    of course, that that developed
  • speaker
    during the period
  • speaker
    that I worked with church and
  • speaker
    society before I was its director.
  • speaker
    And I would say principally
  • speaker
    there you've got the race business,
  • speaker
    the formation of the Commission on
  • speaker
    Religion and Race in 63,
  • speaker
    the work of COCAR and CORAR
  • speaker
    in which I functioned
  • speaker
    very often as the
  • speaker
    representative or presence
  • speaker
    of the Board of Christian Education
  • speaker
    Staff in a
  • speaker
    lot of those activities and events
  • speaker
    so that one of the
  • speaker
    sort of punctuation
  • speaker
    points in my
  • speaker
    30 years of service
  • speaker
    at the national staff level
  • speaker
    that I cherish is also
  • speaker
    that shaping a period
  • speaker
    of things in which
  • speaker
    I had a slightly different kind
  • speaker
    of role, but nevertheless was fairly
  • speaker
    involved.
  • speaker
    Well, okay, that's, now you wanted.
  • speaker
    Did did the abortion
  • speaker
    issue did that come up under under
  • speaker
    section.
  • speaker
    Okay. Hey yeah.
  • speaker
    That's one that I.
  • speaker
    Well, yeah.
  • speaker
    We should have added that the,
  • speaker
    the, the struggle over abortion
  • speaker
    policy
  • speaker
    was
  • speaker
    well it was signaled in 1970
  • speaker
    when for the first time
  • speaker
    the General Assembly
  • speaker
    in essence reversed
  • speaker
    a previous policy line
  • speaker
    which had been articulated as late
  • speaker
    as 1962, I believe,
  • speaker
    in a in a report
  • speaker
    which had condemned abortion
  • speaker
    unreservedly.
  • speaker
    And in 60, in 70
  • speaker
    in that report,
  • speaker
    it was asserted that
  • speaker
    that was
  • speaker
    a matter left
  • speaker
    better left to the ethical,
  • speaker
    to the medical judgment
  • speaker
    of a woman and her doctor and the
  • speaker
    ethical decision of the woman that
  • speaker
    it should not be a subject
  • speaker
    of
  • speaker
    social legislation but should be
  • speaker
    left to matter of choice.
  • speaker
    That was the policy in 1970.
  • speaker
    And from that point on,
  • speaker
    the UPW came in in 72,
  • speaker
    I think with a similar statement and
  • speaker
    it just went on and then
  • speaker
    overtures started to come.
  • speaker
    And then the big long study that
  • speaker
    resulted in the covenant of
  • speaker
    life and covenant and
  • speaker
    creation, the two big
  • speaker
    reports that went to the 83 Assembly
  • speaker
    that are still the subject annually
  • speaker
    of overtures and attempts to
  • speaker
    overturn and so forth.
  • speaker
    Goodness, yes, how could I miss
  • speaker
    that? But that's another
  • speaker
    major
  • speaker
    struggle and a major series of
  • speaker
    policy developments.
  • speaker
    That's part of that sexuality
  • speaker
    line which
  • speaker
    started out in 70 with the
  • speaker
    human sexuality, which moves
  • speaker
    then to
  • speaker
    homosexuality in 1978
  • speaker
    at the assembly and then finally
  • speaker
    to to the abortion,
  • speaker
    along with a number of other
  • speaker
    genetics and and similar
  • speaker
    questions in 1983
  • speaker
    and
  • speaker
    particular well, all of those
  • speaker
    in one way or another are still the
  • speaker
    subject of annual
  • speaker
    heated
  • speaker
    but particularly the homosexuality
  • speaker
    and the abortion ones.
  • speaker
    Overtures struggles and it
  • speaker
    will be again this year.
  • speaker
    And you know
  • speaker
    the one on homosexuality of course,
  • speaker
    has its own drama.
  • speaker
    It's not only the policy
  • speaker
    paper that resulted
  • speaker
    from the work we did, of course,
  • speaker
    the ACCS policy recommendation it
  • speaker
    was reversed at the 78 Assembly
  • speaker
    and the minority report was was
  • speaker
    approved, in essence,
  • speaker
    although the background paper that
  • speaker
    we had prepared was approved study
  • speaker
    and so on,
  • speaker
    what the, the, the big battle
  • speaker
    over
  • speaker
    homosexuality has become,
  • speaker
    not the report we did,
  • speaker
    but the legal
  • speaker
    interpretation of
  • speaker
    the term used by the Assembly
  • speaker
    of definitive guidance,
  • speaker
    as you well know,
  • speaker
    presuming you do,
  • speaker
    which, Bill
  • speaker
    Thompson a year
  • speaker
    or so later and several
  • speaker
    months later,
  • speaker
    when asked to interpret whether
  • speaker
    definitive guidance of the Assembly
  • speaker
    was binding, said yes, it is.
  • speaker
    And that's been, you know, a
  • speaker
    struggle. That was one of the
  • speaker
    factors that led to Bill's defeat in
  • speaker
    1983.
  • speaker
    It let, you know, people like
  • speaker
    Bob Lamar somewhat, Thelma Davidson
  • speaker
    So and what's his
  • speaker
    name, the former moderator
  • speaker
    elected down in 81
  • speaker
    pastor up in New York, Bob Davidson.
  • speaker
    Rod Barton to join
  • speaker
    vigorously in the campaign to defeat
  • speaker
    Bill in 84.
  • speaker
    And it was all over this
  • speaker
    homosexuality ruling ordination.
  • speaker
    Their particular
  • speaker
    angle was,
  • speaker
    and it has led finally
  • speaker
    to this, in my
  • speaker
    view, absolutely absurd
  • speaker
    contention that
  • speaker
    when the Assembly acts in
  • speaker
    that way it
  • speaker
    is as definitive for
  • speaker
    the church as
  • speaker
    a statement of the Constitution
  • speaker
    or the form
  • speaker
    of government duly debated
  • speaker
    and voted on by all the
  • speaker
    presbyteries and so on.
  • speaker
    And that was submitted,
  • speaker
    as you probably also know, again,
  • speaker
    after a bitter struggle
  • speaker
    in the Permanent Judicial
  • speaker
    Commission.
  • speaker
    What was it? The Advisory Committee
  • speaker
    on the Constitution.
  • speaker
    Advisory Committee on the
  • speaker
    Constitution?
  • speaker
    Pardon me.
  • speaker
    They were split. Finally, what, 3 to
  • speaker
    2 or four, two, three, something
  • speaker
    like that to
  • speaker
    take to the assembly last year, the
  • speaker
    recommendation that the book of
  • speaker
    order be revised in order
  • speaker
    to assert that
  • speaker
    the judgment of the General Assembly
  • speaker
    on the meaning of the Constitution
  • speaker
    is as authoritative as the
  • speaker
    Constitution is itself.
  • speaker
    I think it's going to pass,
  • speaker
    which to me is patently absurd to
  • speaker
    try to say that that
  • speaker
    the vote of one General Assembly
  • speaker
    by majority
  • speaker
    has the same significance
  • speaker
    and binding character
  • speaker
    in the church as the
  • speaker
    plain language of the of
  • speaker
    the book of Order
  • speaker
    based upon the judgment and vote of
  • speaker
    all the presbyteries.
  • speaker
    And yet that's exactly
  • speaker
    the legal position that the church
  • speaker
    is now being positioned
  • speaker
    into.
  • speaker
    All in an attempt to nail
  • speaker
    down the fact that you can't ordain
  • speaker
    a homosexual.
  • speaker
    And the paradox is the next
  • speaker
    assembly can if that's
  • speaker
    if that's the principle of the next
  • speaker
    assembly can turn around and reverse
  • speaker
    that.
  • speaker
    With definitive guidance.
  • speaker
    Exactly the opposite.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    And once that's in and people
  • speaker
    get a sense of what that means.
  • speaker
    You can
  • speaker
    you can just envision the parade
  • speaker
    of advocacy groups
  • speaker
    coming before the assembly trying to
  • speaker
    get a definitive ruling on, you
  • speaker
    know, abortion being prohibited by
  • speaker
    this section or, you know, whatever
  • speaker
    and.
  • speaker
    Your
  • speaker
    prediction is you think it's going
  • speaker
    to pass?
  • speaker
    Well, I haven't heard much debate
  • speaker
    about it anywhere.
  • speaker
    I don't think people understand what
  • speaker
    they're doing.
  • speaker
    I think it's been quietly
  • speaker
    whispered about this is a way to
  • speaker
    nail down the fact you can't ordain
  • speaker
    queers.
  • speaker
    And only
  • speaker
    a few people, Grayson Tucker, on the
  • speaker
    committee, the Advisory Committee on
  • speaker
    the Constitution was one of the ones
  • speaker
    in the minority on this.
  • speaker
    And he just aghast.
  • speaker
    I mean, he says, how in the world
  • speaker
    can we do something like
  • speaker
    that? And, you know, how can we?
  • speaker
    But
  • speaker
    the work
  • speaker
    we've done in the Advisory
  • speaker
    Council has
  • speaker
    has come to have institutional
  • speaker
    effect.
  • speaker
    One of the things that used to pain
  • speaker
    me
  • speaker
    over the years as a young
  • speaker
    pastor and looking back over the
  • speaker
    history, was the fact that the
  • speaker
    assembly could act.
  • speaker
    And it really didn't make much of an
  • speaker
    impact because it didn't make much
  • speaker
    difference whether
  • speaker
    anybody paid any attention to it or
  • speaker
    not anything about it or not.
  • speaker
    It really there
  • speaker
    was very little institutional
  • speaker
    impact.
  • speaker
    There were sometimes short lived
  • speaker
    periods of agitation
  • speaker
    and anger. What do they think they're doing? They don't talk.
  • speaker
    But
  • speaker
    I would venture to say
  • speaker
    that when I look back over my own
  • speaker
    stewardship of this, that one of the
  • speaker
    objectives to try to
  • speaker
    see that it had institutional
  • speaker
    impact, that when the
  • speaker
    Assembly declared policy,
  • speaker
    it meant something in the
  • speaker
    life of the church.
  • speaker
    Been fairly successful on several
  • speaker
    fronts. Sometimes
  • speaker
    that impact has been pretty
  • speaker
    pretty tense, difficult.
  • speaker
    Sometimes it's been worked out
  • speaker
    pretty good and been very effective.
  • speaker
    But I just I went
  • speaker
    in with a sense
  • speaker
    that we have got to position these
  • speaker
    things away from their
  • speaker
    ordinary identification as
  • speaker
    pronouncements, which
  • speaker
    is just a whole bunch of mouth
  • speaker
    toward something that I call
  • speaker
    policy, which
  • speaker
    is a conscious declaration
  • speaker
    of direction in which the
  • speaker
    institution intends to move
  • speaker
    and binding
  • speaker
    on its institutional forms
  • speaker
    and mechanisms.
  • speaker
    A lot of people resist today even
  • speaker
    this movement. They want to call
  • speaker
    them statements or papers or things
  • speaker
    like that rather than policies.
  • speaker
    But I think the concept
  • speaker
    of social policy has now
  • speaker
    been grounded enough
  • speaker
    that it's going to survive, at least
  • speaker
    for a while.
  • speaker
    Maybe this will be a good point.
  • speaker
    We've got a few minutes here before
  • speaker
    we have to change locations.
  • speaker
    But could we could we
  • speaker
    just shift for a bit and and
  • speaker
    explain to someone
  • speaker
    who is really not that familiar
  • speaker
    with the intricacies of the
  • speaker
    Presbyterian organization,
  • speaker
    how does
  • speaker
    or how did the church and
  • speaker
    the advisory committee on church and
  • speaker
    society, how
  • speaker
    does it go about doing
  • speaker
    its work? That is,
  • speaker
    how does it determine
  • speaker
    its agenda?
  • speaker
    Who says what it
  • speaker
    is to do?
  • speaker
    How does it what process
  • speaker
    does it follow in order to
  • speaker
    bring its decisions
  • speaker
    to some kind of completion
  • speaker
    and and
  • speaker
    what binding authority does it have
  • speaker
    or how does it how does it have
  • speaker
    authority? And and then ultimately,
  • speaker
    how does it follow up on what
  • speaker
    it what this
  • speaker
    eventually approved by the General
  • speaker
    Assembly?
  • speaker
    Well, yeah, let's look at let's look
  • speaker
    at that.
  • speaker
    There is an interesting history of
  • speaker
    the different forms and patterns
  • speaker
    that have emerged and the different
  • speaker
    approaches to strategy over the over
  • speaker
    the years. But let's let's
  • speaker
    not start there, you may want to get
  • speaker
    back to that at some point. Let's
  • speaker
    start with, with the kind of
  • speaker
    immediate past, how the Advisory
  • speaker
    Council on Church and Society
  • speaker
    functions, the Advisory Council
  • speaker
    was created in 1972
  • speaker
    by the the
  • speaker
    reorganization and design for
  • speaker
    mission in the UPC
  • speaker
    as a successor
  • speaker
    to part of the responsibilities
  • speaker
    that the Council on Church and
  • speaker
    Society had had in the previous
  • speaker
    structure.
  • speaker
    The
  • speaker
    the quick form
  • speaker
    distinction is
  • speaker
    that the Advisory Council on Church
  • speaker
    and Society in the
  • speaker
    Theory of Organization and structure
  • speaker
    that was embraced in 1972
  • speaker
    became part, 4 o'clock,
  • speaker
    became part of the
  • speaker
    policy and coordinating
  • speaker
    mechanism of the UPC
  • speaker
    that was separated
  • speaker
    out from the program operational
  • speaker
    system and the General
  • speaker
    Assembly Mission Council
  • speaker
    and two advisory councils,
  • speaker
    Church and Society and
  • speaker
    Discipleship and Worship, were put
  • speaker
    into this policy
  • speaker
    and coordinating central position,
  • speaker
    Program Agency, Vocation Agency,
  • speaker
    Foundation Pensions,
  • speaker
    Support Agency were operating
  • speaker
    mission agencies.
  • speaker
    The theory being that
  • speaker
    the Assembly
  • speaker
    adopts policy
  • speaker
    which is core, the process
  • speaker
    of preparing as coordinated by the
  • speaker
    GAMC and refer to the Assembly,
  • speaker
    the agencies, the mission agencies,
  • speaker
    Program, Vocation, Support,
  • speaker
    Foundation, Pensions, and so forth,
  • speaker
    implement the policy once
  • speaker
    it's been adopted by the Assembly
  • speaker
    and the General Assembly Mission
  • speaker
    Council, advised
  • speaker
    by these two advisory councils,
  • speaker
    coordinates the process of
  • speaker
    implementation of GA policy
  • speaker
    to be sure that it's faithful to the
  • speaker
    policy effective and so forth.
  • speaker
    So
  • speaker
    that means that the Advisory Council
  • speaker
    itself, in this latest dispensation
  • speaker
    from 73 to 83
  • speaker
    or 88,
  • speaker
    did not operate ongoing
  • speaker
    social action programs
  • speaker
    as the old Council on Church and
  • speaker
    Society had.
  • speaker
    Those were over in a
  • speaker
    Church and Society Division of the
  • speaker
    Program Agency because that was
  • speaker
    the implementing arm.
  • speaker
    The Advisory Council was to
  • speaker
    concentrate on
  • speaker
    the recommendation of the policy
  • speaker
    directions, advising the Assembly
  • speaker
    and the GAMC and the Church on
  • speaker
    on policy and and
  • speaker
    direction.
  • speaker
    So
  • speaker
    there were a lot of trepidations
  • speaker
    about that distinction, by the way,
  • speaker
    and a lot of struggle
  • speaker
    about how to define it and work with
  • speaker
    it in the beginning, I came to
  • speaker
    appreciate it as a very useful
  • speaker
    and indeed important distinction.
  • speaker
    Just as a quick discursive.
  • speaker
    So partly because
  • speaker
    it
  • speaker
    it took away the temptation
  • speaker
    for the program operating unit
  • speaker
    to shape the policy,
  • speaker
    a recommendation to the Assembly in
  • speaker
    ways that served its own
  • speaker
    programmatic agenda and purposes,
  • speaker
    which I think is always the
  • speaker
    temptation of a bureaucratic
  • speaker
    organization, is to get the board
  • speaker
    to approve the
  • speaker
    policy direction that
  • speaker
    serves its own bureaucratic needs
  • speaker
    and interests and vision best,
  • speaker
    and said we'll have a separate
  • speaker
    independent from
  • speaker
    program interests
  • speaker
    group over here to make these policy
  • speaker
    recommendations.
  • speaker
    And that was the Advisory Council.
  • speaker
    Its members were elected directly
  • speaker
    by the General Assembly
  • speaker
    on nomination by the Permanent
  • speaker
    Nominating Committee of General
  • speaker
    Assembly,
  • speaker
    except in the years when GAMC
  • speaker
    was around three of its members were
  • speaker
    named by the GAMC
  • speaker
    from its own
  • speaker
    elected membership.
  • speaker
    It had 24 members, 21 elected
  • speaker
    to large by the Assembly,
  • speaker
    three named by the General Assembly
  • speaker
    Mission Council.
  • speaker
    The Council met three times a year.
  • speaker
    It
  • speaker
    it it usually met
  • speaker
    shortly after the Assembly in the
  • speaker
    summer, July,
  • speaker
    in order to assess
  • speaker
    the
  • speaker
    requests that came from the last
  • speaker
    General Assembly for new directions
  • speaker
    of work and to
  • speaker
    set priorities and create processes
  • speaker
    for getting those directions
  • speaker
    under underway.
  • speaker
    Now, rarely
  • speaker
    would a piece of work be finished in
  • speaker
    time to report back to the next
  • speaker
    Assembly.
  • speaker
    That's largely because
  • speaker
    of the timeline of printing for
  • speaker
    the reports to the next assembly
  • speaker
    meant that usually by the 1st of
  • speaker
    February the report had to be in and
  • speaker
    between July and February it's
  • speaker
    almost impossible to get
  • speaker
    a process put together, a paper
  • speaker
    to research done and so on.
  • speaker
    So these things were running over
  • speaker
    two or three years sometimes.
  • speaker
    But the summer meeting was a time
  • speaker
    at which the agenda
  • speaker
    was kind of set, taking into
  • speaker
    consideration work already
  • speaker
    in progress requests for new
  • speaker
    work coming out of the Assembly and
  • speaker
    so on.
  • speaker
    The Advisory Council was
  • speaker
    permitted by terms of its mandate
  • speaker
    to initiate studies
  • speaker
    on its own,
  • speaker
    but it rarely did so.
  • speaker
    I'm trying to think of any time when
  • speaker
    it really did.
  • speaker
    Largely because
  • speaker
    the number of requests
  • speaker
    coming from the General Assembly
  • speaker
    through overtures from
  • speaker
    Presbyteries or through committees
  • speaker
    requested the Assembly itself or
  • speaker
    stuff from the floor
  • speaker
    was always so large
  • speaker
    and generally so much in line with
  • speaker
    what the Advisory Council itself
  • speaker
    felt would be important
  • speaker
    that its task was to
  • speaker
    try to set priorities among those
  • speaker
    things rather
  • speaker
    than to churn up some new ideas
  • speaker
    of its own.
  • speaker
    But it was permitted, if it
  • speaker
    if it desired, to initiate work
  • speaker
    on its own.
  • speaker
    It got most of its agenda,
  • speaker
    as I said, from the General
  • speaker
    Assembly.
  • speaker
    A lot of it by
  • speaker
    by overture from the presbyteries.
  • speaker
    Now, there's a little twist
  • speaker
    to that, because one of the
  • speaker
    functions of the Advisory Council
  • speaker
    was to give advice and counsel
  • speaker
    to the General Assembly,
  • speaker
    not only as it considered the report
  • speaker
    of the Advisory Council each year,
  • speaker
    but also as it considered any
  • speaker
    matter related to social
  • speaker
    issues.
  • speaker
    So the Advisory Council
  • speaker
    had the mandate to
  • speaker
    advise the Assembly,
  • speaker
    in essence, what to do about
  • speaker
    these overtures that were coming in
  • speaker
    in regard to social issues
  • speaker
    and developed a mechanism called
  • speaker
    the Advice and Counsel Memorandum by
  • speaker
    which it did in writing
  • speaker
    it would.
  • speaker
    We did that because
  • speaker
    and that was a matter of controversy
  • speaker
    to other agencies, particularly
  • speaker
    agencies in the PCUS.
  • speaker
    Preferred never to put anything
  • speaker
    in writing.
  • speaker
    They would come to an agreement
  • speaker
    about what their position would be
  • speaker
    and then have a personal
  • speaker
    representative in there who would,
  • speaker
    you know by word of mouth, pass what
  • speaker
    they wanted done and what they've
  • speaker
    already done and so forth.
  • speaker
    We decided several years ago
  • speaker
    to do that in writing
  • speaker
    and to circulate it publicly,
  • speaker
    partly in order that everybody would
  • speaker
    know what the Advisory Council's
  • speaker
    views were and officially,
  • speaker
    and could use those views if they
  • speaker
    wished to. And very often they did,
  • speaker
    but also partly to ensure
  • speaker
    that the Assembly was
  • speaker
    guaranteed to get the advice
  • speaker
    that has been corporately agreed to
  • speaker
    by the Advisory Council, their
  • speaker
    elected members, not by some
  • speaker
    individual who, in the
  • speaker
    heat of the moment said, Well, I
  • speaker
    think it's better to do this, you
  • speaker
    know, because
  • speaker
    we were trying to get away from that
  • speaker
    sense of individual politics.
  • speaker
    Is this something that that would be
  • speaker
    done say by a majority vote?
  • speaker
    The executive committee
  • speaker
    was authorized to function as the
  • speaker
    advice and counsel group
  • speaker
    because most of the overtures came
  • speaker
    in after the Advisory Council had
  • speaker
    met in January.
  • speaker
    And so the executive committee
  • speaker
    met in advance of each Assembly
  • speaker
    to decide on which overtures
  • speaker
    and issues it wished to make
  • speaker
    written comment.
  • speaker
    And then just
  • speaker
    before the Assembly, they would meet
  • speaker
    to consider the drafts of those
  • speaker
    papers and revise and adopt
  • speaker
    them. So they were adopted by
  • speaker
    the Executive committee as the
  • speaker
    corporate advice of
  • speaker
    the Advisory Council.
  • speaker
    And by bylaw, they were authorized
  • speaker
    to act on behalf of the Advisory
  • speaker
    Council to do that.
  • speaker
    So
  • speaker
    I'm not I don't want to
  • speaker
    deny the fact that the Advisory
  • speaker
    Council itself had some
  • speaker
    influence in shaping that agenda
  • speaker
    by the sort of advice it gave to the
  • speaker
    Assembly about the
  • speaker
    overtures that were coming in.
  • speaker
    They would say, for instance,
  • speaker
    on this matter, the General Assembly
  • speaker
    has only recently
  • speaker
    declared itself in a major
  • speaker
    policy way, and we'd cite
  • speaker
    the year.
  • speaker
    And therefore the Advisory Council
  • speaker
    does not believe it would be a good
  • speaker
    idea to use the resources and time
  • speaker
    of the church to prepare a new
  • speaker
    study.
  • speaker
    The old policy is there.
  • speaker
    It's clear it can be reiterated,
  • speaker
    but there's no need to do it again.
  • speaker
    And therefore we urge you to take no
  • speaker
    action on this overture.
  • speaker
    Well, that'd make the presbytery mad
  • speaker
    because they had just discovered
  • speaker
    this issue and they thought
  • speaker
    the whole church ought to know about
  • speaker
    it. And they sometimes resented
  • speaker
    being told that the Assembly had
  • speaker
    only acted on it last year and they
  • speaker
    didn't know that.
  • speaker
    But that's the sort of thing the
  • speaker
    Advisory Council was trying to
  • speaker
    manage the social policy enterprise
  • speaker
    as an ongoing enterprise in the life
  • speaker
    of the church, in which policy
  • speaker
    that had been made continued
  • speaker
    in effect and need not be redone
  • speaker
    every year just because the
  • speaker
    Assembly wanted to sound off on
  • speaker
    something.
  • speaker
    And it's still that committee,
  • speaker
    whatever was on overtures, they
  • speaker
    had the right to override
  • speaker
    whatever you did.
  • speaker
    Oh yeah, but whatever advice we
  • speaker
    gave it was only advice.
  • speaker
    And the Assembly had the power to
  • speaker
    override whatever the committee
  • speaker
    of their own recommended
  • speaker
    to them. But through
  • speaker
    that overture mechanism and through
  • speaker
    the General Assembly committees
  • speaker
    themselves that have the power to
  • speaker
    initiate suggestions for new
  • speaker
    business most of
  • speaker
    the items that we had to deal with
  • speaker
    came. Now
  • speaker
    when they
  • speaker
    come the Advisory Council,
  • speaker
    not only has the authority, they
  • speaker
    have the responsibility to shape
  • speaker
    how the exploration
  • speaker
    of that issue will occur.
  • speaker
    I mean, you know, what do you do?
  • speaker
    Do you. Do you have a
  • speaker
    do you have a task force study?
  • speaker
    Do you do a preparatory volume and
  • speaker
    ask people to respond to it?
  • speaker
    Do you define it in the narrowest
  • speaker
    possible terms or do you say
  • speaker
    this has connections with three or
  • speaker
    four other things that are very
  • speaker
    apparent? Let's look at the whole
  • speaker
    context.
  • speaker
    And so therefore, the
  • speaker
    context and pattern of
  • speaker
    much of the explorations got defined
  • speaker
    by the Advisory Council,
  • speaker
    sometimes in ways that
  • speaker
    surprised the folks who had put in
  • speaker
    the overtures and sometimes the ways
  • speaker
    other people found it. You were only
  • speaker
    study supposed to study mass transit
  • speaker
    in urban centers.
  • speaker
    What are you doing here studying,
  • speaker
    you know, urban governance as well?
  • speaker
    When you said, well, you can't
  • speaker
    really look at transit
  • speaker
    unless you understand the governance
  • speaker
    patterns that, you know, so
  • speaker
    forth.
  • speaker
    When the decision is made then
  • speaker
    to undertake
  • speaker
    this study, as you requested, a
  • speaker
    task force was created.
  • speaker
    Now, there are rules in the General
  • speaker
    Assembly manual for how to
  • speaker
    set up a task force, how to carry on
  • speaker
    the study.
  • speaker
    There's a set of rules in the manual
  • speaker
    for social policy formation
  • speaker
    about how you go about it, and
  • speaker
    the church must be notified that the
  • speaker
    process is underway.
  • speaker
    They must be told where they can put
  • speaker
    in material resources,
  • speaker
    opinions.
  • speaker
    Task force must have on it.
  • speaker
    You know, people of theological
  • speaker
    as well as disciplined and
  • speaker
    so forth.
  • speaker
    You set up a task force
  • speaker
    of people to study
  • speaker
    the issue. You give them the
  • speaker
    prospectus, you tell them they're
  • speaker
    not absolutely bound by that
  • speaker
    prospectus. But that's the way to
  • speaker
    begin.
  • speaker
    And you give them
  • speaker
    the pattern of activity that the
  • speaker
    Advisory Council has set out.
  • speaker
    We think you ought to meet five
  • speaker
    times on this.
  • speaker
    And the Advisory Council wants to
  • speaker
    see the draft of your report by a
  • speaker
    certain date and your final report
  • speaker
    by a certain date. And we hope it
  • speaker
    will contain a background paper
  • speaker
    that, you know, policy statements
  • speaker
    on.
  • speaker
    Clarification.
  • speaker
    But the task force is appointed by
  • speaker
    whom?
  • speaker
    By the Advisory Council.
  • speaker
    Oh, it is?
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    The and the Advisory
  • speaker
    Council, again,
  • speaker
    distinct from some practices
  • speaker
    of other agencies,
  • speaker
    but rarely had
  • speaker
    more than two of its own members
  • speaker
    on any of these things.
  • speaker
    They were not subcommittees of the
  • speaker
    Advisory Council, as will be the
  • speaker
    case in some other agencies.
  • speaker
    They would have one or two Advisory
  • speaker
    Council members.
  • speaker
    The other 10, 12, 14
  • speaker
    would be folks selected at large
  • speaker
    because of their experience,
  • speaker
    background, expertise, position,
  • speaker
    you know, whatever.
  • speaker
    Were they again, Were they
  • speaker
    selected with some
  • speaker
    conception of representative.
  • speaker
    Representative.
  • speaker
    Of a conservative, liberal,
  • speaker
    whatever? Or is it more just
  • speaker
    people who have been recognized
  • speaker
    as having some kind of expertise or
  • speaker
    geographic or.
  • speaker
    Well, let's put it this way,
  • speaker
    Conservative and liberal were
  • speaker
    low rank categories
  • speaker
    on the selection screens.
  • speaker
    You look for people
  • speaker
    who know something about
  • speaker
    the issue.
  • speaker
    Now, that does not necessarily mean
  • speaker
    professionals.
  • speaker
    It could mean a pastor
  • speaker
    who has made a serious study of
  • speaker
    gambling and who's got a real
  • speaker
    concern about it.
  • speaker
    And, you know,
  • speaker
    it doesn't have to be a sociologist
  • speaker
    who's written a book on gambling,
  • speaker
    although those are nice to have
  • speaker
    around to or a political scientist
  • speaker
    who served on a legislature that's
  • speaker
    on the committee that controls the
  • speaker
    casinos.
  • speaker
    It could be a pastor or a layperson
  • speaker
    who simply has has developed a
  • speaker
    considerable interest and expertise
  • speaker
    in that.
  • speaker
    But you look for people who know
  • speaker
    something about the issue
  • speaker
    or when you're looking at theology
  • speaker
    and ethics, not necessarily
  • speaker
    people who've studied the theology
  • speaker
    of gambling, but people
  • speaker
    whose approach to theology and
  • speaker
    biblical study is such
  • speaker
    that you believe they
  • speaker
    can illuminate
  • speaker
    this sort of issues,
  • speaker
    you know, that's going to be in a
  • speaker
    helpful way.
  • speaker
    You don't want a theologian who has
  • speaker
    spent all of their life necessarily
  • speaker
    specializing in
  • speaker
    the study of, you know,
  • speaker
    angels or something.
  • speaker
    And second, you look for people
  • speaker
    who can work in a group.
  • speaker
    We've always been very clear
  • speaker
    when we talk to synod executives
  • speaker
    or pastors about laypeople or
  • speaker
    something like that, you know, is
  • speaker
    this a person who knows how to work
  • speaker
    with other people.
  • speaker
    That is important, regardless
  • speaker
    of whether the person is liberal or
  • speaker
    conservative, a sociologist
  • speaker
    or a layperson, You
  • speaker
    simply do not want
  • speaker
    people whose style of
  • speaker
    work is
  • speaker
    so abrasive
  • speaker
    and whose
  • speaker
    ability to hear
  • speaker
    other points of view and allow
  • speaker
    their own point of view to be judged
  • speaker
    is so limited that
  • speaker
    the committee is going to have to
  • speaker
    spend half its time ministering
  • speaker
    to this nut and
  • speaker
    trying to figure out a way to get
  • speaker
    around the blocks that are
  • speaker
    constantly thrown up.
  • speaker
    I think for time
  • speaker
    we're going to have to stop it.
  • speaker
    Pick
  • speaker
    up here again.
  • speaker
    You ready to go?
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    Now, once you've dealt
  • speaker
    with the two main principles
  • speaker
    that I was talking about, that is
  • speaker
    people who know something about
  • speaker
    the issue or have
  • speaker
    experience in it, and
  • speaker
    people that you're fairly well
  • speaker
    persuaded can can work in
  • speaker
    a group effectively.
  • speaker
    Then there are a number of secondary
  • speaker
    criteria you want to be sure
  • speaker
    get get touched.
  • speaker
    And those have to do with
  • speaker
    racial and ethnic spread
  • speaker
    with conservative and liberal
  • speaker
    reputations in terms
  • speaker
    of theology or
  • speaker
    or academic expertise or something
  • speaker
    like that.
  • speaker
    I have always resisted and
  • speaker
    our chair,
  • speaker
    in most instances, or one one chair
  • speaker
    personally had was a little bit less
  • speaker
    amenable to this work than others.
  • speaker
    But most of them shared this same
  • speaker
    feeling that you do not
  • speaker
    put people on task forces
  • speaker
    whose principal
  • speaker
    criterion is
  • speaker
    she's Black or he's a conservative.
  • speaker
    That's that's just not
  • speaker
    helpful to the other people,
  • speaker
    to the process or to the church.
  • speaker
    Now, once you have
  • speaker
    got a panel of 40
  • speaker
    people who are
  • speaker
    qualified for appointment for
  • speaker
    a 15 member task force
  • speaker
    among all of these various
  • speaker
    categories, then as you go through
  • speaker
    them, you pay attention
  • speaker
    to the clergy, laity
  • speaker
    spread to the man and woman, spread
  • speaker
    to the racial, ethnic spread to the
  • speaker
    conservative liberal reputation,
  • speaker
    spread evangelicals or progressives
  • speaker
    and things like that.
  • speaker
    And sometimes
  • speaker
    if you're persuaded that what you've
  • speaker
    got in your overall panel
  • speaker
    isn't sufficient to give you
  • speaker
    an adequate diversity,
  • speaker
    then you go back and
  • speaker
    you dig out some more folks
  • speaker
    from the overall panel.
  • speaker
    And we've done we've done that at
  • speaker
    times, too, although usually after
  • speaker
    you've done this a few times as
  • speaker
    you're putting together the overall
  • speaker
    panel and the way we would do
  • speaker
    it is
  • speaker
    we would go to
  • speaker
    synods or presbyteries to colleges,
  • speaker
    university chaplains or ministers
  • speaker
    to
  • speaker
    organizations in the church
  • speaker
    boards, agencies, unofficial
  • speaker
    organizations Witherspoon Society,
  • speaker
    Presbyterian Lay Committee or
  • speaker
    whatever, and
  • speaker
    and say, here's a task force
  • speaker
    that's being set up.
  • speaker
    If you have the names of persons,
  • speaker
    here's the kind of expertise
  • speaker
    that's expected.
  • speaker
    If you have the names of persons you
  • speaker
    would like to suggest,
  • speaker
    give them to us and we build,
  • speaker
    you know, a bunch of names,
  • speaker
    track them down, get their
  • speaker
    credentials in order.
  • speaker
    And then in our
  • speaker
    system, the chairperson of
  • speaker
    the Advisory Council appointed
  • speaker
    finally, the names
  • speaker
    pick the final names
  • speaker
    almost invariably in a process
  • speaker
    of consultation with the executive
  • speaker
    committee they'd sit down look at all
  • speaker
    together.
  • speaker
    But we
  • speaker
    kept it over
  • speaker
    all those years as a final
  • speaker
    appointment by the Chair of the
  • speaker
    Advisory Council.
  • speaker
    That's what our bylaws call for, and
  • speaker
    that was honored
  • speaker
    so that by the time he
  • speaker
    ended up,
  • speaker
    he or she, the chair,
  • speaker
    usually had
  • speaker
    at least three names for
  • speaker
    every potential
  • speaker
    member spot in
  • speaker
    the in the task force
  • speaker
    and would build
  • speaker
    out of those.
  • speaker
    It's impossible, obviously, to
  • speaker
    represent every
  • speaker
    position or tendency
  • speaker
    or view of the life of the church,
  • speaker
    although the guidelines of the
  • speaker
    Assembly call for and we genuinely
  • speaker
    attempted to do to honor
  • speaker
    diversity,
  • speaker
    to be sure that somebody
  • speaker
    used to joke and say, well, your
  • speaker
    task forces run the gamut from
  • speaker
    A to or something like that
  • speaker
    rarely from A to Z, of course,
  • speaker
    and sometimes maybe from A to D or
  • speaker
    E.
  • speaker
    But
  • speaker
    the there was an attempt made to be
  • speaker
    sure within those limits that there
  • speaker
    was, there were differing opinions
  • speaker
    and things.
  • speaker
    And then the task forces would
  • speaker
    engage in various
  • speaker
    efforts to get different
  • speaker
    viewpoints. They would hold hearings
  • speaker
    at the General Assembly and
  • speaker
    ask people of any
  • speaker
    tendency to to come in and testify
  • speaker
    or present papers or something.
  • speaker
    They would
  • speaker
    invite or commission
  • speaker
    papers to be prepared by
  • speaker
    a range of
  • speaker
    scholars or experts or
  • speaker
    things like that, to try to be sure
  • speaker
    that they had
  • speaker
    they were aware of
  • speaker
    of any
  • speaker
    really,
  • speaker
    you know, potentially useful
  • speaker
    interpretations or schools of
  • speaker
    thought of something
  • speaker
    trying to screen out
  • speaker
    in the process
  • speaker
    positions that were put
  • speaker
    forward sometimes with a great
  • speaker
    vehemence but with little grounding
  • speaker
    in terms of rationale or background
  • speaker
    or anything else. People
  • speaker
    who felt passionately, politically
  • speaker
    and emotionally about something or
  • speaker
    other, but who simply had no
  • speaker
    willingness or ability
  • speaker
    to say why or what it would
  • speaker
    mean or where that came from, or
  • speaker
    whether it was born out
  • speaker
    by research data or
  • speaker
    whatever.
  • speaker
    We kept trying to push the
  • speaker
    fact that, you know, these these
  • speaker
    things have got to stand the test
  • speaker
    of research validity.
  • speaker
    You cannot stand up and say all
  • speaker
    the sick people are being expelled
  • speaker
    from public hospitals.
  • speaker
    You can't expect the General
  • speaker
    Assembly to say that without some
  • speaker
    body of respectable research data
  • speaker
    that indicates that.
  • speaker
    And when you find that data, then
  • speaker
    you're likely to see in certain
  • speaker
    parts of the country, three out
  • speaker
    of four people are turned away or
  • speaker
    something like that.
  • speaker
    So that's the way
  • speaker
    those things operated.
  • speaker
    We also had one other rule for which
  • speaker
    we got into trouble
  • speaker
    or were roundly denounced
  • speaker
    from time to time.
  • speaker
    We never allowed anybody
  • speaker
    else to name members
  • speaker
    of the task forces.
  • speaker
    We might say, for instance, that
  • speaker
    on this task force,
  • speaker
    there needs to be someone
  • speaker
    from the Presbyterian
  • speaker
    Peacemaking Fellowship and the
  • speaker
    Presbyterian Lay Committee,
  • speaker
    and we would then
  • speaker
    ask those organizations, give
  • speaker
    us the names of three or four people
  • speaker
    you think we might consider or
  • speaker
    something like that.
  • speaker
    We would never allow
  • speaker
    the Lay Committee, the Peace
  • speaker
    Fellowship or
  • speaker
    PHEWA or anybody else
  • speaker
    to designate a representative
  • speaker
    to the task force,
  • speaker
    principally because we just did
  • speaker
    not believe there ought to be
  • speaker
    anybody on there
  • speaker
    who owed accountability
  • speaker
    for their presence to another
  • speaker
    organization with some
  • speaker
    implied responsibility
  • speaker
    to carry not their own personal
  • speaker
    agenda and feelings but the agenda
  • speaker
    and messages from that organization
  • speaker
    into the life of this group.
  • speaker
    So we just didn't have
  • speaker
    representatives from UPW, from
  • speaker
    the Men's Organization, from the Lay
  • speaker
    Committee, from the Peace Fellowship
  • speaker
    or anybody else, although we
  • speaker
    had members from those organizations
  • speaker
    involved in those task forces, they
  • speaker
    were people that we had picked
  • speaker
    based upon a number of
  • speaker
    suggestions.
  • speaker
    And again, I understand that in this
  • speaker
    rapidly politicizing church of
  • speaker
    ours, that's a style that
  • speaker
    folks don't, they want.
  • speaker
    Every every caucus wants its
  • speaker
    designated representative on the thing.
  • speaker
    And then you end up a lot of times
  • speaker
    with nothing but a snake pit of
  • speaker
    special interest, all of which have
  • speaker
    to go back to somewhere else to
  • speaker
    get permission to vote before they
  • speaker
    can decide anything.
  • speaker
    I think that's a terrible way to do
  • speaker
    the church's business myself.
  • speaker
    These groups
  • speaker
    would ordinarily, for the most part,
  • speaker
    their staff assistance
  • speaker
    would come from
  • speaker
    the staff of other agencies that had
  • speaker
    agreed to serve in some, you
  • speaker
    know, volunteer capacity to help,
  • speaker
    the Program Agency, Vocation Agency, something
  • speaker
    like that.
  • speaker
    Occasionally, we would
  • speaker
    use resources to hire a part time
  • speaker
    consultant to help
  • speaker
    administer and do research
  • speaker
    and help write drafts and edit and
  • speaker
    things for plan meetings
  • speaker
    for a group. And on
  • speaker
    one or two occasions,
  • speaker
    we would hire a full
  • speaker
    time temporary staff
  • speaker
    person that was done for the
  • speaker
    Homosexuality Task force,
  • speaker
    where Kathy Young was hired
  • speaker
    to assist that
  • speaker
    task force.
  • speaker
    It was done for this health costs
  • speaker
    policies thing.
  • speaker
    We're just finishing up now where
  • speaker
    a full time person was put on.
  • speaker
    Otherwise we'd hire consultants now
  • speaker
    and then. But
  • speaker
    the staffing was done either by
  • speaker
    generally Program Agency staff, Bob
  • speaker
    Smylie, Kathy Young,
  • speaker
    Phil Newell, Doug Bryant,
  • speaker
    somebody like that
  • speaker
    or by or by
  • speaker
    me or my associate Gail in
  • speaker
    recent years. Gail Benfield for years. Ginger Heinbockel somebody
  • speaker
    like that.
  • speaker
    I did. I did several of them
  • speaker
    myself.
  • speaker
    They would meet, then,
  • speaker
    you know, review their
  • speaker
    assignment, frame out a pattern
  • speaker
    of work, proceed with it, usually
  • speaker
    involving the preparation of a
  • speaker
    of a series of
  • speaker
    background documents and
  • speaker
    a process of refining
  • speaker
    and so forth, looking
  • speaker
    for the the
  • speaker
    focus, the organizing
  • speaker
    focus, because most of the
  • speaker
    topics you undertake are so vast
  • speaker
    potentially in scope that
  • speaker
    you could write
  • speaker
    multi-volume series on development
  • speaker
    in the Third World or the
  • speaker
    South African crisis or anything
  • speaker
    else.
  • speaker
    So you have to find
  • speaker
    some, some angle,
  • speaker
    some some framework
  • speaker
    for going at it.
  • speaker
    And
  • speaker
    that search,
  • speaker
    plus the search for
  • speaker
    a,
  • speaker
    the structure of a position to
  • speaker
    recommend,
  • speaker
    well, generally the central
  • speaker
    work of the task, I mean, gathering
  • speaker
    the information and getting it
  • speaker
    around and getting it down on paper
  • speaker
    is a fairly routine operation.
  • speaker
    But organizing that in some pattern
  • speaker
    and deciding
  • speaker
    how the General Assembly should be
  • speaker
    asked to position itself
  • speaker
    in regard to that
  • speaker
    are the tough jobs.
  • speaker
    And that second one and often
  • speaker
    the first one you see
  • speaker
    involves either explicitly or
  • speaker
    implicitly the
  • speaker
    the theological biblical
  • speaker
    work,
  • speaker
    because what you're looking for is a
  • speaker
    pattern that
  • speaker
    comes out of the church's
  • speaker
    theological biblical understanding
  • speaker
    that will suggest
  • speaker
    some natural organization
  • speaker
    of the material
  • speaker
    preparation of the
  • speaker
    position you want to take.
  • speaker
    And it often emerges late
  • speaker
    in the work not as
  • speaker
    you go along, I remember in 80,
  • speaker
    in the 81 work on on the US-Mexico
  • speaker
    relations, it was at
  • speaker
    one of the final two meetings
  • speaker
    that it
  • speaker
    that that that the structure
  • speaker
    finally broke through.
  • speaker
    And it was a move from the
  • speaker
    Old Testament understanding
  • speaker
    of the stranger
  • speaker
    in the midst of Israel
  • speaker
    and the connection of that
  • speaker
    with Jesus's sense of the neighbor
  • speaker
    in the New Testament
  • speaker
    and the obligations
  • speaker
    that the people of God
  • speaker
    owe to the stranger in their midst
  • speaker
    and to the neighbor,
  • speaker
    as it became clear
  • speaker
    that we're talking about
  • speaker
    people, Mexican migrants to
  • speaker
    the United States
  • speaker
    who are neighbors in a sense,
  • speaker
    and have been historically, although
  • speaker
    existing in our midst as strangers
  • speaker
    more often than not, that this
  • speaker
    theme finally emerged, strangers
  • speaker
    become neighbors, and
  • speaker
    the whole theological analysis and
  • speaker
    the system of recommendations that
  • speaker
    flowed out of that then was shaped
  • speaker
    by by that biblical
  • speaker
    understanding of a move
  • speaker
    from the Old Testament concept of
  • speaker
    the stranger to the New Testament
  • speaker
    concept of the neighbor, and what
  • speaker
    that involves for Christian
  • speaker
    understanding.
  • speaker
    So that the
  • speaker
    the the work of
  • speaker
    finding a biblical theological
  • speaker
    framework
  • speaker
    was most
  • speaker
    often integral to the
  • speaker
    process of trying to shape
  • speaker
    and understand the issues and the
  • speaker
    position. Rarely
  • speaker
    did we find a task force
  • speaker
    that found it helpful
  • speaker
    to try in isolation
  • speaker
    as a as a piece of abstract,
  • speaker
    separate work to
  • speaker
    debate the biblical and theological
  • speaker
    framework and then try to move from
  • speaker
    that and apply it to the situation.
  • speaker
    I really think that can be usefully
  • speaker
    done, and I suspect
  • speaker
    that's because I studied with
  • speaker
    Richard Niebuhr, and Davie Napier and
  • speaker
    others who studied at Gordon
  • speaker
    Conwell, for instance, or
  • speaker
    at Princeton, may believe
  • speaker
    that's the right way to do it.
  • speaker
    And so I become aware of how
  • speaker
    the way in which one's own sense
  • speaker
    of the use of Scripture
  • speaker
    in decisions about
  • speaker
    the faith is formed
  • speaker
    that then affects.
  • speaker
    Well to what? To what?
Details
Title

Interview of Dean H. Lewis by R. Douglas Brackenridge, Tape 2, Side 1.

Description

Cassette tape 2, side 1 of an interview recorded in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania from March 11 to 12, 1988. Dean Lewis discusses the functions of the Advisory Council on Church and Society and the processes of establishing task forces. Part of a 5 cassette tape set.

Creator

Lewis, Dean, 1926-2021. (interviewee)
Brackenridge, R. Douglas. (interviewer)

Date

1988
March 11-12, 1988

Type of resource

sound recording-nonmusical

Genre

interviews
oral histories

Form

audiocassettes

Extent

sound cassette (47 min.)

Subject names

United Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A. Advisory Council on Church and Society.
Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). Advisory Council on Church and Society.
United Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A. Task Force to Study Homosexuality.

Topics

Church and the world.
Social policy.
Church polity.

Geographic subjects

North and Central America--United States--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia--Philadelphia

Rights status

IN COPYRIGHT - NON-COMMERCIAL USE PERMITTED; http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/

Physical location

CASSETTE 1993-1997; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA

Related item

Interview of Dean H. Lewis / by R. Douglas Brackenridge.--https://catalog.history.pcusa.org/cgi-bin/koha/opac-detail.pl?biblionumb...

Identifier (local)

cassette1993-1997_dean_lewis_tape2_side1

PID (Persistent Identifier)

islandora:344680

Bookmark

BookBags: