Interview of Dean H. Lewis by R. Douglas Brackenridge, Tape 1, Side 1.

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    This is March the 11th,
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    1988.
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    I'm R.
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    Douglas Brackenridge, and
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    I'm here at the
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    boardroom of the
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    Presbyterian Historical Association
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    in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
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    And I will be interviewing
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    Mr. Dean H.
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    Lewis, the director of the
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    Advisory Council on Church
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    and Society.
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    And we will be talking about
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    issues relating to
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    philosophical theological
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    concepts related with his work
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    and with specific
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    activities and programs
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    of the Presbyterian Church (USA)
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    and its predecessors.
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    All right, Dean,
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    if we could start and perhaps
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    give us just a little bit of your
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    background, your family
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    background, and
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    some what you see as some
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    important signposts
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    along the way that kind of led you
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    into the work that you eventually
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    wound up doing for the Presbyterian
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    Church.
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    Okay, Doug, that's a
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    that's a subject that's capable of a
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    lot of deep exploration.
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    Let's give it a whirl.
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    I was born in Tulsa, Oklahoma,
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    in 1926.
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    My father and mother
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    had come there a couple of years
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    before.
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    Out of the Missouri Ozarks, where
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    both of them had been raised.
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    My father was at that point,
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    a part time employee of the
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    Postal Service.
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    And my mother was a housewife.
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    They were both
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    of mountain stock
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    from several generations back in
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    American history, Kentucky,
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    Tennessee and so forth, farmers
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    in the Missouri Ozarks.
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    My mother was one of
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    eight children who
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    had, with her own mother, raised
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    most of the family after being
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    deserted by her father.
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    My father was one of 13 children.
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    Mother had a high school education.
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    Dad had only five
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    years of formal schooling,
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    although he read and fought
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    through much of his life.
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    But they were part of that mountain
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    heritage of hardscrabble
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    farms and hardscrabble
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    religion. They were both primitive
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    Baptists
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    coming from generations of
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    Baptists, hard shell Baptists,
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    revivalist Baptists, preachers,
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    and so on.
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    In fact, my my father's
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    grandfather had
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    come to Missouri, one of his
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    grandfathers as
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    a circuit riding hard shell Baptist
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    preacher from Kentucky,
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    a man named Sam Hardy.
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    After a couple
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    of years there, my dad got a chance
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    to be a regular employee
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    of the Postal Service, moved
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    to a little town in Missouri,
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    where he was a rural
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    mail carrier
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    on a route there, Archie, Missouri.
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    Then we moved to a county seat
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    town in Cass County, Missouri,
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    called Harrisonville
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    when I was about four years old, and
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    that's where I grew up.
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    We were members of the Baptist
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    Church there in Harrisonville.
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    I was fortunate, I think, in a way,
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    to grow up under the
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    preaching of a
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    Canadian Baptist Calvinist
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    who had somehow wandered down into
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    Missouri during those depression
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    years.
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    And I
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    think back and realize that a lot
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    of my own innate sense
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    of Calvinist theology
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    came really out of the preaching
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    of brother A.P. Wilson there
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    in that Baptist church in
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    Harrisonville, later
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    served by a young, well-educated
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    progressive Baptist just out of
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    seminary in Kansas City, Lloyd
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    Collins, who later became
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    an official of the Missouri Baptist
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    Convention.
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    So while it was part of that,
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    you know, solid Midwestern
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    conservative Revivalist Baptist
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    tradition, there were
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    a couple of things in there that
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    gave me, I think, a little
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    a little more open angle on
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    the faith than some of the churches
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    had.
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    I was typically converted
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    in a summer revival when I was nine
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    years old, baptized in the church
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    and active
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    in all of the affairs of youth
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    from Sunday school, sword drill
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    contests and memory
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    verse contests and
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    my knowledge of the English
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    scripture
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    roots in those years, which I
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    memorized half of it for
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    four contests and learned how to
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    look at the other half for sword
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    drills. So that's
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    a heritage, by the way, I've always
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    appreciated and really
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    look back on with with
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    pleasure.
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    I went through the
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    12 years of grade in elementary
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    school in Harrisonville
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    with a little group of folk who
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    I still maintain some contact with.
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    About 30 of us, a small school
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    on graduation from high school.
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    And in 1944,
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    I joined the Navy
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    in a special program they had for
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    electronics technicians at that
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    point.
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    In fact we used to brag that when
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    people flunked out of the program
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    we had they sent them to officers
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    school, which was in fact true.
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    Program set up by Commander Eddy
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    to deal with this newfangled radar
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    that had just been done.
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    I was in training for that program
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    until the summer of 1945, actually,
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    and when I finished it and
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    got orders to ship to
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    California for shaping
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    up to invade Japan, by the time I
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    got to California, the bombs had
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    been dropped, The war was over
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    and I sat in Alameda Naval
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    Air Station for a while.
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    I got discharged, went back
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    home to Missouri.
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    I was by then
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    still not quite 20
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    years old.
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    Matter of fact,
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    I enrolled that
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    fall in a little Baptist college
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    up in Missouri, Liberty,
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    Missouri. William Jewell College,
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    tried to get into the University of
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    Chicago, couldn't, you know, 11
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    million veterans were trying to go
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    to school that same year.
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    That was close to home.
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    I hitchhiked up one time and
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    could get in there and did.
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    I doubled up some courses
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    and went through William Jewell in
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    six semesters,
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    graduating with the class of 1949.
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    And while there
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    I was active in a lot of things.
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    I was president of the senior class
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    commander of the fraternity
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    in the debate squad and
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    all kinds of honor societies and
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    so forth.
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    Philosophy club,
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    I suppose a couple of influences
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    that later helped shape me
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    were that I had a couple of
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    philosophy professors who were
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    both graduates of the Yale Divinity
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    School.
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    Both of them ended up, as a matter
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    of fact, at the institution where
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    you've served.
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    I was going to ask you that.
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    Leonard Duce and Guy Ranson.
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    Len was at
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    that time the dean of William Jewell
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    College and professor head of
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    the philosophy department.
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    Guy Ranson had come recently
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    as a professor in that department,
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    also taught some Bible courses, I
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    think things like that.
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    They both later became
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    Presbyterians, as I did
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    when they went down to Trinity.
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    But I had
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    I had enjoyed
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    classwork with both of them
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    and in fact was a teaching assistant
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    for Guy for a while, teaching some
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    of the courses in logic and
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    philosophy
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    and had
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    argued religion.
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    I was not part of the Ministerial
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    Association group and nothing like
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    that. That was just simply
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    I was already
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    at serious odds with
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    with organized religion, with with
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    Baptist practice and with
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    fundamentalism in general and
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    so on, and could hardly stomach
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    what I saw going on.
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    And, you know, among some of the
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    so-called ministerial club people
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    and so on.
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    It's not that I was so highly
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    secularized or anything like that, I
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    just a different intellectual sense
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    of what it was all about.
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    But
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    at the end of the years
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    in William Jewell, I get ready to
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    graduate.
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    I had decided to go to
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    Yale Law School, a fraternity patron
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    had graduated from that school many
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    years ago and
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    had been talking to me about that,
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    and I happened to run into Guy
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    Ranson on the campus one day and
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    he asked what I was going to do in
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    the fall. I told him I was going to
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    Yale Law School and he said to me,
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    You've still got GI time left,
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    haven't you? Yeah I said I got some. He
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    says, You should go to Yale Divinity
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    School for a year and
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    just see, you argue so much
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    about religion, you ought to go and
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    find out what it's really like
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    someplace other than where you've
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    grown up in this Missouri Southern
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    Baptist Mountain tradition.
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    So I told
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    him I couldn't get in. It's too
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    late, you know. And
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    I remember him saying to me, if I
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    can if you can get in,
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    if I can get you in, would you go
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    for a year? Sure, you know.
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    And about ten days later, I got a
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    letter from Yale Divinity School
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    saying I'd been accepted for the
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    fall term in the
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    Yale Divinity School.
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    And so I went
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    because I hadn't made any
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    arrangements for scholarship
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    assistance or anything, which I
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    would have needed.
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    Family, of course, being very poor
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    and all.
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    So I got on a train
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    or bus or something, a train,
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    and went to New Haven
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    in the fall.
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    And naturally when I got
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    there and in a little while I got
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    hooked and loved it and
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    stayed.
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    At the end of my first year, I
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    had written back to the Missouri
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    Baptists to say
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    if there was any summer work, see if
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    there's any summer work for for me.
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    And I got a letter back advising
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    me in no uncertain terms that there
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    would be no summer work for any
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    Baptist who was going to Yale
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    Divinity School in Missouri.
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    So about that time,
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    another one of my dear
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    patrons and
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    friends
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    came through Yale and put up a sign
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    on the bulletin board saying anybody
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    interested in doing summer field
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    work in Arkansas should come to see
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    L. Burney Shell.
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    And Burney
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    was an old Texas pastor
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    whom I learned later.
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    Burney just died
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    a few months ago, aged 95 or 96, in
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    a nursing home in Texas,
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    Hereford, Texas.
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    Burney was one of the signers of the
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    Auburn Affirmation back in 25,
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    26 as a little pastor
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    of a little church down in Tennessee.
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    And he signed it.
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    But I would see
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    him and I told him
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    I was a Baptist, but
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    the Baptist wouldn't hire me.
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    And would there any possibility
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    that I could work for
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    him in Arkansas?
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    He says, Well, you know, you don't
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    have to go around telling everybody
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    you're a Baptist and let me see
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    what I can do.
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    So I soon got a
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    letter from him saying if I wanted
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    to go down to a little town called
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    Greenwood, Arkansas,
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    for the summer, they had
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    a little parish set up there with
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    Greenwood and Hartford
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    and a little town called Clyde.
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    I think it was, no
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    that was later.
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    Greenwood and Hartford,
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    a couple coal mining towns.
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    Hartford was.
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    So I went down there and spent the
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    summer and at the end of the summer
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    the
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    folk came and said they understood
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    that it was possible to stay for
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    intern years under certain
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    circumstances and would I
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    be interested. And I thought about
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    it and thought, well, maybe I might.
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    There was a wonderful couple
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    of old Scotch folk down
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    there, a banker named Wilkinson
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    family and a woman named
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    Overton, who were kind of the
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    muckety mucks of the church.
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    And I told Burney
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    Shell that I really
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    didn't think it was fair for me to
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    stay and not have those folks
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    know I was not a Presbyterian
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    because it might leak out at some
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    point during a full year.
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    So we called a session meeting.
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    Bernie did, and came down and
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    moderated it, and
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    I told him I was interested in
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    staying, but that
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    they should know that I was not
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    a Presbyterian.
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    Well, Mr. Wilkinson said, What are
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    you?
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    I'm a Baptist.
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    The great silence in
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    the whole room. Complete silence.
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    He says, Well, are you planning to
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    become a Presbyterian?
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    I said, Well, I don't know.
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    I haven't really finally decided
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    yet. And
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    would it have to be known that
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    you're not a Presbyterian?
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    No, it wouldn't have to be known.
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    So they decided to have me whether I
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    was going to be a Presbyterian or
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    not.
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    Later on during the year, I did join
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    the church and applied to go under
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    care of presbytery,
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    what was the old Fort Smith
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    Presbytery of the Synod of Arkansas,
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    and was received
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    under the care of that Presbytery
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    and probably have one of
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    the few letters of transfer
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    extant from a Baptist
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    Church of the Southern Convention to
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    a Presbyterian church.
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    Because my home church in
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    Harrisonville, which
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    by the way, had licensed me to
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    preach, I was licensed to preach as
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    a Southern Baptist. When
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    I wrote the letter up to
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    my father and
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    to the pastor of that church saying
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    what I decided to do,
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    Board of Deacons met and
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    considered this matter, I requested
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    a letter of transfer and
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    they considered this matter.
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    And of course, that's strictly
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    against Baptist policy.
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    But one of the dear old deacons of
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    the church said, listen, that boy
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    was raised in this church.
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    We licensed him to preach and he
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    loves the Lord.
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    And I move that we send
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    a letter of transfer to the
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    Presbyterian Church of Greenwood, Arkansas.
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    And they did.
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    So it's on the, it's on the records
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    down there.
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    I was taken into care of Presbytery,
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    went on back at
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    the end of that intern period and
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    finished my work at Yale.
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    There was a move in Presbytery to
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    require me to go to Presbyterian
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    Seminary.
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    And I remember Burney Shell,
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    delightful man, standing
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    up and saying, Listen, this man is
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    going back to Yale.
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    He's going to study polity under
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    Walter David Knight, Bino Knight.
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    And if I
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    unless I miss my bet, he
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    says he will come out knowing and
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    loving the Presbyterian Church more
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    than anybody who goes to Princeton.
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    So now that to be true.
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    I don't know if you ever heard of Bino Knight, he
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    was a great, great
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    man, great teacher of polity.
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    He was. A representative of the
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    board of the National Mission's
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    Sunday School Missionary and
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    Christian Education in the old Synod
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    of New England, taught
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    polity at Yale.
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    On his retirement, he went out and
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    taught polity at San Anselmo
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    for several years, was greatly
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    loved.
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    So Burney persuaded them.
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    And they let me go back to Yale
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    instead of taking Presbyterian
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    training. So I never had courses
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    in Presbyterian Seminary or
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    Presbyterian College either one.
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    When I left Yale, it was to
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    come back
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    to Springdale, Arkansas,
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    at the Presbyterian Church there,
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    which was part of a larger parish.
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    And Burney was following my
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    my course of studies and got me back
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    down there.
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    And in April of 53,
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    I left Yale a term early in order to
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    come down and take the church, which
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    was a new church development that
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    had not been going well.
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    And the organizing pastor
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    had been asked to leave and
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    had done so.
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    So I got married
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    on the 29th of March to my
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    old college sweetheart who had
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    finally agreed to marry me
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    and on the 5th of April, started
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    working in Springdale, Arkansas, and
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    got ordained on the 12th
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    by the Presbytery of
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    I believe by this point it had
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    become the Presbytery of North
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    Arkansas, of the Synod of
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    Oklahoma-Arkansas.
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    So what year is this now?
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    50, This is 53.
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    53.
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    1953.
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    I had graduated from college in 49,
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    the Centennial
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    Class at William Jewell College,
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    and this was
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    53.
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    And June and I were married and went
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    down and started this work.
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    Oh, I had
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    persuaded a friend of mine
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    from Yale
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    to, Dick Mead, Richard Mead, to
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    come down also to Arkansas and take
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    a part of that same larger parish.
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    Dick later went to Vanderbilt and
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    taught New Testament until he
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    died several years ago.
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    A degenerative ailment of some
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    kind.
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    At the same time, into that
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    same presbytery
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    came Herbie Anderson
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    from McCormick, who ended up at
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    Brick Church and is still at
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    Brick Church in New York.
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    As a matter of fact, Bob Moser,
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    who's now pastor of Grace Church
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    in Wichita, Kansas,
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    Bill Gibson was there at that time.
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    Bill Knox, Ed Brubaker was
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    it later became Synod
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    executive was there.
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    Tom Wilson who ended up it
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    was a marvelous presbytery,
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    just really great,
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    great bunch of folks.
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    And we had a good time together
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    for five years.
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    And that was during the period to
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    civil rights period and back and
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    forth in Little Rock and organizing
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    Arkansas Citizens for Orderly
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    Compliance and all kinds of things,
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    getting ourselves roundly denounced
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    here, there and yonder.
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    But most of us
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    were able to
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    or I think, be fairly clear in our
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    witness and still enjoy the respect
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    and confidence of folk in our
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    congregations that disagreed with us
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    openly.
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    It was an interesting time for me
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    and I
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    think was very formative also
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    in helping
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    me understand how
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    within the context
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    of Presbyterian commitments to
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    the orderly process,
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    to careful institutional
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    authorizations of things
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    and of give and
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    take in open discussion of
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    the defense
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    of of all alternative
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    points of view with the insistence
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    that they must be engaged openly
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    in dialog. And it all
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    helped me learn a lot of things
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    that were important to me in
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    later years as I took up
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    the work that I
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    later came to.
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    In 1958,
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    I took a couple of months
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    off the church to go back to Eden
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    Seminary in Saint
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    Louis to finish up to finish
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    a couple of courses.
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    Long story. I had left Yale
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    thinking I had enough credits to
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    graduate. I was supposed to write an
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    extra paper for Richard Niebuhr,
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    never got the paper done
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    and therefore lost the extra credit
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    and didn't have enough to graduate
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    and didn't have a diploma.
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    I was in fact ordained and
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    practicing without a
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    seminary degree.
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    So Yale finally said, If you don't
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    finish it up now, we're going to
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    close the books on you.
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    So I went back to Eden and
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    took several courses, Walt Brueggemann
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    and was one of my classmates in some
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    of those courses,
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    studied with Elmer Arndt, Richard
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    Niebuhr, and finished up enough
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    courses to get the degree at
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    Yale. So technically I was 58
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    class of 58 at Yale, even though I
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    left at 53.
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    And while I
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    was there, I got a call from
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    Don Lester, who had become secretary
  • speaker
    of the Division of Evangelism
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    following Chuck Templeton's
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    resignation and move to
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    Canada and leaving
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    the ministry.
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    Big scandal in the church.
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    Lost his faith and so on, terrible.
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    Chuck, by the way, was a fascinating
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    man.
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    I thoroughly enjoyed knowing
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    him.
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    I had been active in
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    the Synod and Presbytery
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    in my five years in Arkansas, both
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    in the evangelism area and
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    in the social action area.
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    I'd been Synod Evangelism Chairman,
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    Presbytery of Social Action
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    chairman, and had always
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    insisted on trying to keep those
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    two aspects of public
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    witness for the church
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    in some creative
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    synthesis.
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    Being a Baptist, what else could I
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    do?
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    Don called me and asked
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    if I would be willing to consider
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    taking the Western Area
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    Office of the Division of Evangelism
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    or National Missions at that point.
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    They were organized with area
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    offices as well as a headquarters
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    staff. It was all part of one staff,
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    but they had offices in various
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    parts of the country
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    and a man who had been in the
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    western area for quite a number of
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    years was getting ready to retire.
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    Don was anxious to
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    change the image of the
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    division and get some new
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    programs and new blood going.
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    And I
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    had come to know him in
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    the various regional
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    conferences and things on evangelism
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    that the church in older days
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    used to have, where they would bring
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    in Synod and Presbytery folk
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    and work with the national staff.
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    I miss them very much.
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    I think they were great, great
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    things.
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    And so I did.
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    I agreed to do that and
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    therefore left Springdale after five
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    years, having
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    resisted other blandishments before
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    that time.
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    But it felt good and right
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    to do that.
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    We moved to San Francisco,
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    where the Western area office was,
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    and was there a couple of years
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    when in 1950.
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    That was in 1958.
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    Then in 1960,
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    Bill Morrison, whom I had gotten
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    to know in the church officer
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    training program while still
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    an officer, while still a pastor
  • speaker
    in Arkansas.
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    I'd been recruited to be part of
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    that church officer
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    training program at the Board of
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    Christian Education, ran all over
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    the church in those late
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    fifties years,
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    and in the preparation meetings
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    for that in Atlantic City, I had
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    come to know Bill Morrison and
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    Christian education staff and so on.
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    That was the group that a Board of
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    Christian Education assembled,
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    of which Gene Blake said
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    when he
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    was at the first training meeting in
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    Atlantic City to give an address,
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    is reputed to have said as he looked
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    at these folks and these are
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    supposed to be the future leaders
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    of the church? I don't know any of
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    these people.
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    But Gene learned that a lot of them
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    were really the future leadership of
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    the church, as a matter of fact.
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    In 60 Bill Morrison called me and
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    said he had just begun
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    work as the head of the Board of
  • speaker
    Christian Education upon Paul Calvin
  • speaker
    Payne's retirement
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    and
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    was anxious to reorganize some
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    things, get some things going and
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    said he wanted to start a new
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    division of social education
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    and evangelism to tie together
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    a concern for evangelism and social
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    issues and education about that and
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    wanted me to to be the
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    person in that office.
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    And I agreed to do that.
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    So in October 1960,
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    we moved back to
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    Philadelphia to start work for the
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    Board of Christian Education,
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    which begins
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    the history of my
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    work in the social issues that
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    led me to the Church and Society
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    job.
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    And you may want to
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    stop and probe some of that earlier
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    time before we would be discussing.
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    I guess, one area that was a little
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    bit more interested in in terms of
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    the actual
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    content of your of your
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    teaching there at Yale.
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    Richard Niebuhr there.
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    And what
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    what particularly
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    in looking back on that
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    that period and just in just in
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    terms of of any concrete
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    ideas that you remember coming
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    out of that period in
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    regard to your theological
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    formation?
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    Well, it was it was
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    it was a critical period for me of
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    coming out of a,
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    you know, modestly
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    effective, I suppose, little four
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    year denominational college in
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    Missouri and Baptist thing.
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    But after the Second World War, with
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    these millions of people descending,
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    I mean, all the standards went to
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    hell. You know, this government
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    money was floating around and
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    anybody took anybody would get in.
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    I had zoomed through William Jewell
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    College with
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    no problem at all.
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    I hadn't particularly studied or
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    anything else made A's and B's and
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    just no real challenge
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    to it, took 25 hours at a time
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    and, you know, 20 hours of A and 5
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    hours of B and
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    a lot of playing and and
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    fraternity work and extracurricular
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    activities on the side
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    frazzled myself out my senior year.
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    But and
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    then I hit I hit this
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    and I was all of a sudden
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    in in school with all
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    these folk that were, yeah they were
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    coming out of Princeton and,
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    you know, Antioch and University
  • speaker
    of Chicago.
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    And these people were really
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    they were well-prepared.
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    They were
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    they knew a lot more than I
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    knew and had
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    a lot better patterns
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    of intellectual inquiry and thought
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    that had been drilled into them.
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    My habit was simply to read the book
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    the night before the test and then
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    go in and ace it, which, you
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    know, you retain some stuff.
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    These folk had learned how to study
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    and compete and so
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    on. So I found myself in a
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    in a demanding and competitive
  • speaker
    academic atmosphere for the first
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    time in my life.
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    I'd zoomed through high school, the
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    head of Everything in Sight made the
  • speaker
    best record anybody had ever made in
  • speaker
    the high school up to that point.
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    I'd zoomed through college without
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    any real effort, and here
  • speaker
    all of a sudden, I.
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    And it was it was marvelous.
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    It was extremely stimulating
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    and exciting
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    for me to be in an environment
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    where not only the professors, but
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    other students tested you and
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    pushed you and were better than you
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    were and knew more than
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    you did.
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    And
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    for the first time, to really
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    be in a situation where I could
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    explore
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    the questions I had about the
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    church, its doctrines, its history,
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    its posture, its
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    governance in a context
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    where whatever ideas
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    I had were not immediately branded
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    as ridiculous as they were
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    often, and where they would be
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    treated with seriousness and where
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    there were resources that I could
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    explore the context
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    and history and depth of those
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    things. It's a marvelous time for
  • speaker
    me.
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    The
  • speaker
    the most influential
  • speaker
    forces during that period for me
  • speaker
    were Richard Niebuhr.
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    It is hard to describe
  • speaker
    the the effect
  • speaker
    this man had on
  • speaker
    students.
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    He was not particularly
  • speaker
    a terribly articulate
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    lecturer.
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    He would wrestle with himself
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    as he lectured physically
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    as well as verbally,
  • speaker
    but the depth of his care
  • speaker
    and the willingness that he had
  • speaker
    to to spend hours
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    with a class with you as an
  • speaker
    individual
  • speaker
    struggling through
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    questions and issues and
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    blocks that to him must have been,
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    you know, stuff that was
  • speaker
    old hat and all but he
  • speaker
    would invest with, with fresh
  • speaker
    clarity as if he were hearing
  • speaker
    for the first time these
  • speaker
    these confusions or doubts.
  • speaker
    It just was a tremendously
  • speaker
    opening experience for me and
  • speaker
    his
  • speaker
    his teaching of
  • speaker
    theological ethics
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    as an exercise
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    in
  • speaker
    the exploration of
  • speaker
    the responsibility
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    that Christians have
  • speaker
    in relationship to God's
  • speaker
    revelation and to the
  • speaker
    personal and social context in which
  • speaker
    there's his famous triad
  • speaker
    and his
  • speaker
    famous. I still remember
  • speaker
    one series of lectures, which
  • speaker
    I've ever since said
  • speaker
    is the basis of my own
  • speaker
    ethical theory is not deontological.
  • speaker
    You know, it's not teleological.
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    It's cathēkontilogical.
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    I find hardly anybody knows what
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    that word even means.
  • speaker
    I don't.
  • speaker
    Kathēkontos is the Greek word for
  • speaker
    fitting or appropriate
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    the apt thing, the appropriate
  • speaker
    thing.
  • speaker
    And it's a Greek word that
  • speaker
    Niebuhr used in his
  • speaker
    as he went through all these types
  • speaker
    of ethics, he would finally come
  • speaker
    down to this kind
  • speaker
    of sense that the
  • speaker
    the ethical thing to do
  • speaker
    is the thing which is appropriate
  • speaker
    in this contextual relationship
  • speaker
    with gospel, with spirit,
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    with the community, with
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    oneself, and with the context
  • speaker
    out there.
  • speaker
    What what is appropriate given
  • speaker
    those and
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    that intersection that's
  • speaker
    ethical, not what necessarily is in
  • speaker
    the rule, not what necessarily leads
  • speaker
    to sort of a conclusion you've
  • speaker
    already decided, and
  • speaker
    I've learned ever since,
  • speaker
    to to try to
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    struggle
  • speaker
    for integrity in
  • speaker
    that sense, not what
  • speaker
    some rule somewhere says.
  • speaker
    Probably one doesn't ignore the
  • speaker
    rules, not what some
  • speaker
    objective may call you to do, not
  • speaker
    what the tradition has, if anything,
  • speaker
    but what in the light of all
  • speaker
    of that and in the fresh and in
  • speaker
    breaking spirit, what
  • speaker
    really is the appropriate
  • speaker
    thing to do that obeys the gospel,
  • speaker
    honors the word, redeems
  • speaker
    the world, expresses love whatever.
  • speaker
    So that concept of the
  • speaker
    cathēkontilogical
  • speaker
    has been a powerful shaping
  • speaker
    force.
  • speaker
    Davie Napier was an enormous
  • speaker
    influence on me and I guess a lot
  • speaker
    of people.
  • speaker
    Davie was never a great
  • speaker
    scholar. I guess I don't even know
  • speaker
    he didn't stay at Yale too long.
  • speaker
    He went out on out to Stanford
  • speaker
    or yeah to Stanford for a while,
  • speaker
    went into PSR, go
  • speaker
    back to Yale as master of Calvin
  • speaker
    College, and he didn't
  • speaker
    write a lot of books and things like
  • speaker
    that. But I mean, that man
  • speaker
    could make the Old Testament
  • speaker
    live
  • speaker
    and breathe
  • speaker
    and and have power in
  • speaker
    a way that,
  • speaker
    in spite of my intimate knowledge
  • speaker
    of the English Bible gained
  • speaker
    in Southern Baptist circles,
  • speaker
    I did not know it as a living,
  • speaker
    dynamic, powerful
  • speaker
    account of the life
  • speaker
    of people and of
  • speaker
    the intersection of God
  • speaker
    with human history.
  • speaker
    Davie's lecture on I think it's the
  • speaker
    22nd chapter of Genesis,
  • speaker
    where Abraham takes
  • speaker
    Isaac up to sacrifice
  • speaker
    and is spared from that
  • speaker
    was something that
  • speaker
    generations of students, I guess,
  • speaker
    tell about, but I
  • speaker
    remember that, take your son,
  • speaker
    your only son Isaac,
  • speaker
    but just in general, his
  • speaker
    his opening of of
  • speaker
    the revelation, the Scriptures
  • speaker
    as a living, breathing, vital
  • speaker
    human document with all
  • speaker
    its ambiguities and passions and
  • speaker
    power as a
  • speaker
    contemporary human force,
  • speaker
    stayed
  • speaker
    with me. It converted
  • speaker
    a kind
  • speaker
    of knowledge of the Scripture
  • speaker
    into
  • speaker
    a sense of Scripture as as
  • speaker
    a as authority in
  • speaker
    life to be
  • speaker
    wrestled with, to be accounted
  • speaker
    for, not simply to be parroted
  • speaker
    or kind
  • speaker
    of put in as proof
  • speaker
    text or signature or
  • speaker
    or something like that.
  • speaker
    Frank Young was a
  • speaker
    similar influence on me in
  • speaker
    the New Testament area,
  • speaker
    not because he taught so much New
  • speaker
    Testament, but because he taught
  • speaker
    Greek and the way he taught Greek.
  • speaker
    He had later went to the University
  • speaker
    of Pennsylvania, I think again was
  • speaker
    never a big scholar never wrote a
  • speaker
    lot of books but was a marvelous
  • speaker
    teacher.
  • speaker
    So as you can see, it was in this
  • speaker
    area of biblical
  • speaker
    theological ethics, of of
  • speaker
    New Testament, Old Testament.
  • speaker
    And the other influence was not
  • speaker
    I never had a class under Ken
  • speaker
    Latourette as a lot
  • speaker
    of people did.
  • speaker
    I never had a class with Roland
  • speaker
    Bainton.
  • speaker
    Is that right?
  • speaker
    I
  • speaker
    got was assigned to Richard Wolff
  • speaker
    for faculty advice when I first went
  • speaker
    up there, and he taught American
  • speaker
    church history. So he touted me into
  • speaker
    American church history and
  • speaker
    I had my requirements fulfilled and
  • speaker
    never, never got a class from Roland Bainton
  • speaker
    which I regretted and never had
  • speaker
    a class from Ken Latourette,
  • speaker
    but for some time
  • speaker
    I was in
  • speaker
    I was in a, I guess,
  • speaker
    what you'd call today of a prayer
  • speaker
    group or something with
  • speaker
    Ken.
  • speaker
    He always had two or three groups
  • speaker
    going where four or five
  • speaker
    students
  • speaker
    would meet with him in the morning
  • speaker
    or in the evening or something once
  • speaker
    a week for prayer
  • speaker
    and devotion and discussion
  • speaker
    and reflection.
  • speaker
    And I was privileged for
  • speaker
    a period of time to be in one of
  • speaker
    those and just the the
  • speaker
    acquaintance and friendship
  • speaker
    and spiritual
  • speaker
    grounding of that experience.
  • speaker
    I went to chapel at Yale and,
  • speaker
    you know, stuff like that.
  • speaker
    But that was my
  • speaker
    first experience with a genuinely
  • speaker
    authentic, in my view,
  • speaker
    small community of spiritual
  • speaker
    discipline and practice.
  • speaker
    I'd been in Sunday school, I'd been
  • speaker
    in, you know, BYPU
  • speaker
    and all that kind of stuff.
  • speaker
    But nothing,
  • speaker
    nothing like that.
  • speaker
    I had been I had flirted
  • speaker
    once or twice with prayer groups
  • speaker
    in in the
  • speaker
    college. William Jewell.
  • speaker
    But that was so syrupped
  • speaker
    up with these ministerial student
  • speaker
    groups that I couldn't take that.
  • speaker
    I had been to some
  • speaker
    youth for Christ stuff when I was in
  • speaker
    the Navy down in Texas,
  • speaker
    and that didn't take it was a place
  • speaker
    to meet girls.
  • speaker
    And that was an interesting
  • speaker
    enterprise in those days,
  • speaker
    but it didn't have any real
  • speaker
    spiritual. That was my first
  • speaker
    experience with disciplined,
  • speaker
    authentic, spiritual
  • speaker
    spiritual life, and
  • speaker
    it was a powerful
  • speaker
    shaping force and Ken Latourette
  • speaker
    became a good personal friend.
  • speaker
    We stayed in touch and he loaned me
  • speaker
    money a couple of times and
  • speaker
    and things like that.
  • speaker
    I guess those were, I
  • speaker
    became aware of
  • speaker
    social issues.
  • speaker
    I did a study under Liston Pope
  • speaker
    who was teaching around then. Oh I think I
  • speaker
    marched on picket lines a couple of
  • speaker
    times, down Winchester Arms, which
  • speaker
    was down the hill,
  • speaker
    but in my, neither in my field
  • speaker
    work nor in my
  • speaker
    studies did I get a lot of stuff
  • speaker
    on on social ethics.
  • speaker
    I played in a bridge set with
  • speaker
    people like William Lee Miller, in a
  • speaker
    bridge group, and Ernie Lefever
  • speaker
    and
  • speaker
    Bill May and some folk like that.
  • speaker
    And there was a lot of talk and
  • speaker
    discussion in those things about
  • speaker
    social issues and all.
  • speaker
    But that's not really
  • speaker
    where my sense of passion
  • speaker
    for social
  • speaker
    things that I later
  • speaker
    moved into more clearly got
  • speaker
    formed. I brought it with me.
  • speaker
    I got it out of the Baptist
  • speaker
    preaching, I got it out of that
  • speaker
    Calvinist sense of judgment
  • speaker
    on the world, and particularly
  • speaker
    out of Davie Napier's
  • speaker
    beautiful way of
  • speaker
    interpreting how the
  • speaker
    the prophetic and eschatological
  • speaker
    visions of the Old Testament
  • speaker
    of justice and peace and
  • speaker
    righteousness
  • speaker
    were meant to have effect in
  • speaker
    the world we live in, not simply in
  • speaker
    some world to come.
  • speaker
    So I actually got my passion for
  • speaker
    social justice out of Calvinist,
  • speaker
    preaching from a Canadian Baptist
  • speaker
    down in the heart
  • speaker
    of the Bible Belt and out of Old
  • speaker
    Testament study from
  • speaker
    a poet. Davie Napier's a poet.
  • speaker
    That's interesting.
  • speaker
    You know last night, Martin Marty
  • speaker
    was talking about three things that
  • speaker
    he said were
  • speaker
    what the contemporary world was
  • speaker
    looking for in terms of religion, he
  • speaker
    said the experience
  • speaker
    wanted some sentiments, experience
  • speaker
    and identity, who they are,
  • speaker
    where they've come from and some
  • speaker
    understanding of authority.
  • speaker
    And it seems to me you've
  • speaker
    described that matrix
  • speaker
    in a in a
  • speaker
    kind of contextual way for
  • speaker
    for your particular
  • speaker
    setting those elements.
  • speaker
    Well, I would add something to that.
  • speaker
    I think I would quarrel
  • speaker
    with anything
  • speaker
    Marty would have said.
  • speaker
    I think the world is hungry
  • speaker
    for vision.
  • speaker
    Now, for a
  • speaker
    vision that has authority
  • speaker
    or authoritative vision.
  • speaker
    But I remember reading
  • speaker
    a couple of years ago about
  • speaker
    Kurt Vonnegut's visit
  • speaker
    back to East
  • speaker
    Germany, to Dresden,
  • speaker
    when it was the first time he'd been
  • speaker
    back since the firebombing.
  • speaker
    And, you know, his own
  • speaker
    experience which he recounted in
  • speaker
    Slaughterhouse-Five. First time he'd
  • speaker
    been back.
  • speaker
    And he was on East German television
  • speaker
    and being interviewed and so forth.
  • speaker
    And he
  • speaker
    was asked if there was any,
  • speaker
    you know, any word
  • speaker
    he had, that he
  • speaker
    thought the world ought to hear
  • speaker
    to say, what one thing he thought
  • speaker
    was
  • speaker
    was the biggest problem in
  • speaker
    the modern world as he now reflected
  • speaker
    on.
  • speaker
    And he said the biggest problem
  • speaker
    is loneliness and the lack of
  • speaker
    vision.
  • speaker
    One problem
  • speaker
    and I was very
  • speaker
    impressed by that because I remember
  • speaker
    that Old Testament
  • speaker
    sense of what happens
  • speaker
    when the vision
  • speaker
    rise up and the promise
  • speaker
    that in the community that
  • speaker
    God restores old men,
  • speaker
    dream dreams, young men, and so on
  • speaker
    and so forth.
  • speaker
    The context of the community
  • speaker
    and the vision.
  • speaker
    Martin Luther King's power
  • speaker
    in our life
  • speaker
    was not authority.
  • speaker
    It was the ability
  • speaker
    to to generate
  • speaker
    a sense of how things might
  • speaker
    be that
  • speaker
    were not yet
  • speaker
    and why it was important
  • speaker
    that those things be rooted
  • speaker
    in some knowledge, a deep knowledge
  • speaker
    of who we were
  • speaker
    as a nation and as a people.
  • speaker
    And to articulate and articulate
  • speaker
    that in a way that people not only
  • speaker
    felt it to be possible and
  • speaker
    desirable, but something toward
  • speaker
    which we could move something to
  • speaker
    work which we can work, something
  • speaker
    that we could go after, for
  • speaker
    Pete's sake.
  • speaker
    And I think the contemporary
  • speaker
    church and the contemporary world
  • speaker
    is hungry for
  • speaker
    that sense of authentic,
  • speaker
    authoritative
  • speaker
    vision.
  • speaker
    Something that resonates deeply
  • speaker
    in both the
  • speaker
    social and individual psyche.
  • speaker
    That brings a recognition
  • speaker
    that is truly part
  • speaker
    of who and what we are.
  • speaker
    Potentially, not something
  • speaker
    alien to our sense
  • speaker
    of self.
  • speaker
    So the identity
  • speaker
    is there, but something
  • speaker
    that is not yet, but which could be
  • speaker
    and we'll go for it
  • speaker
    because, you know.
  • speaker
    Martin or whatever
  • speaker
    the preacher or the General Assembly
  • speaker
    or the president lays that
  • speaker
    out. And we haven't had that.
  • speaker
    John Kennedy for a while
  • speaker
    awakened some of that sense.
  • speaker
    Franklin Roosevelt was a master at
  • speaker
    it. Abraham Lincoln.
  • speaker
    But, you know, we're
  • speaker
    not here talking about management by
  • speaker
    objectives.
  • speaker
    We're not here talking about
  • speaker
    purposes.
  • speaker
    We're not anything like that.
  • speaker
    And
  • speaker
    I suppose any.
  • speaker
    The thing that has kept me
  • speaker
    alive
  • speaker
    in these
  • speaker
    many years of
  • speaker
    difficult,
  • speaker
    painful, controversial
  • speaker
    struggle in the Church and Society
  • speaker
    arena in the Church
  • speaker
    is is that
  • speaker
    is that understanding of of
  • speaker
    the biblical vision
  • speaker
    that was planted in
  • speaker
    me, not only in that
  • speaker
    beautiful Canadian Baptist preaching
  • speaker
    back in that fundamentalist Southern
  • speaker
    Baptist Church, but by Davie
  • speaker
    Napier and particularly
  • speaker
    Davie others in
  • speaker
    that understanding of the meaning of
  • speaker
    the biblical revelation.
  • speaker
    You can't believe that
  • speaker
    it is possible
  • speaker
    for us to move toward a
  • speaker
    time when leopards and
  • speaker
    lions and lambs and
  • speaker
    lie down together in oxen eat straw
  • speaker
    and they weren't hurt nor destroy
  • speaker
    the desert blossoms like a rose
  • speaker
    that's promised.
  • speaker
    And I think the
  • speaker
    freshness of that promise and
  • speaker
    that vision is a source
  • speaker
    of enormous power
  • speaker
    and energy for people
  • speaker
    who who will believe
  • speaker
    truly that it is possible.
  • speaker
    It is not empty poetry.
  • speaker
    It is not idle speculation.
  • speaker
    It is not promises for some
  • speaker
    dispensation beyond our present
  • speaker
    life.
  • speaker
    What is meant to be
  • speaker
    the intended way
  • speaker
    the creation functions
  • speaker
    by the power that made it and
  • speaker
    sustains it.
  • speaker
    So I'd add to Marty's
  • speaker
    Trinity a little fourth
  • speaker
    heretical point about vision.
  • speaker
    I was wondering maybe ask
  • speaker
    you one more question and
  • speaker
    then maybe move on into
  • speaker
    into career.
  • speaker
    It seems to me, just from
  • speaker
    listening to you and part of what
  • speaker
    you are describing, I understand.
  • speaker
    I don't understand.
  • speaker
    I mean, I'm part of that, but
  • speaker
    not not quite the same phase.
  • speaker
    But but it seems to me that
  • speaker
    that a great deal of what later
  • speaker
    would develop people like yourself
  • speaker
    and others who would be involved
  • speaker
    in social action programs
  • speaker
    in the church, that
  • speaker
    that you did have a
  • speaker
    fairly clearly defined
  • speaker
    theological context
  • speaker
    and you had some models,
  • speaker
    you had some some
  • speaker
    highly respected articulate
  • speaker
    models. And and although
  • speaker
    there were various
  • speaker
    differing interpretations and
  • speaker
    yet you had this pretty
  • speaker
    clear theological context out
  • speaker
    about which you can, you
  • speaker
    know, you you brought parts of it
  • speaker
    and you also developed it that that
  • speaker
    it seems to me that that was
  • speaker
    one of the one of the differences
  • speaker
    between now and
  • speaker
    then is that there's no
  • speaker
    such thing
  • speaker
    as a theological context
  • speaker
    in the same way which
  • speaker
    which I hear, you know, you
  • speaker
    articulate not that there isn't some
  • speaker
    theological content, but it's not
  • speaker
    the same same reality
  • speaker
    as is what you
  • speaker
    have at a very formative period
  • speaker
    of your life.
  • speaker
    Yeah, I think that's right.
  • speaker
    That it is.
  • speaker
    It is lacking.
  • speaker
    I've never been terribly
  • speaker
    keen on the
  • speaker
    practice of dismissing children
  • speaker
    from the worship service so they
  • speaker
    could go to Sunday school during the
  • speaker
    time the preaching takes place,
  • speaker
    because in a way that transcends
  • speaker
    intellectual understanding.
  • speaker
    The hearings Sunday after
  • speaker
    Sunday of
  • speaker
    the reading of Scripture,
  • speaker
    the proclamation of that
  • speaker
    word and that Southern Baptist
  • speaker
    Church, I believe,
  • speaker
    was kind of the mother's milk of my
  • speaker
    sense of vision.
  • speaker
    I didn't know it at the time.
  • speaker
    I resented it.
  • speaker
    I fidgeted and fussed and no
  • speaker
    one and argued about going to church
  • speaker
    and everything else
  • speaker
    but
  • speaker
    that that.
  • speaker
    The cadences and
  • speaker
    language of
  • speaker
    that scriptural understanding and
  • speaker
    vision,
  • speaker
    you know, narrowly interpreted often
  • speaker
    by the by the preacher,
  • speaker
    but became a part of
  • speaker
    the of the of the
  • speaker
    aesthetic and psychological
  • speaker
    landscape of what my
  • speaker
    grasp of all the world.
  • speaker
    And so when I later came to
  • speaker
    a place where
  • speaker
    I could understand in
  • speaker
    depth something of its
  • speaker
    power that was there
  • speaker
    already to
  • speaker
    be reconfigured
  • speaker
    in its meaning.
Details
Title

Interview of Dean H. Lewis by R. Douglas Brackenridge, Tape 1, Side 1.

Description

Cassette tape 1, side 1 of an interview recorded in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania from March 11 to 12, 1988. Dean Lewis discusses his upbringing as a Southern Baptist in Missouri, his attendance of Yale Divinity School, his time as a pastor in Springdale, Arkansas, and his career leading up to his time in the Office of Church and Society. Part of a 5 cassette tape set.

Creator

Lewis, Dean, 1926-2021. (interviewee)
Brackenridge, R. Douglas. (interviewer)

Date

1988
March 11-12, 1988

Type of resource

sound recording-nonmusical

Genre

interviews
oral histories

Form

audiocassettes

Extent

sound cassette (47 min.)

Subject names

Lewis, Dean, 1926-2021.
Yale University. Divinity School.
William Jewell College.
Niebuhr, H. Richard (Helmut Richard), 1894-1962.
First Presbyterian Church (Springdale, Ark.)

Topics

Church and the world.
Social policy.
Church polity.

Geographic subjects

North and Central America--United States--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia--Philadelphia

Rights status

IN COPYRIGHT - NON-COMMERCIAL USE PERMITTED; http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/

Physical location

CASSETTE 1993-1997; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA

Related item

Interview of Dean H. Lewis / by R. Douglas Brackenridge.--https://catalog.history.pcusa.org/cgi-bin/koha/opac-detail.pl?biblionumb...

Identifier (local)

cassette1993-1997_dean_lewis_tape1_side1

PID (Persistent Identifier)

islandora:344362

Bookmark

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