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Interview of Dean H. Lewis by R. Douglas Brackenridge, Tape 1, Side 1.
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- speakerThis is March the 11th,
- speaker1988.
- speakerI'm R.
- speakerDouglas Brackenridge, and
- speakerI'm here at the
- speakerboardroom of the
- speakerPresbyterian Historical Association
- speakerin Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
- speakerAnd I will be interviewing
- speakerMr. Dean H.
- speakerLewis, the director of the
- speakerAdvisory Council on Church
- speakerand Society.
- speakerAnd we will be talking about
- speakerissues relating to
- speakerphilosophical theological
- speakerconcepts related with his work
- speakerand with specific
- speakeractivities and programs
- speakerof the Presbyterian Church (USA)
- speakerand its predecessors.
- speakerAll right, Dean,
- speakerif we could start and perhaps
- speakergive us just a little bit of your
- speakerbackground, your family
- speakerbackground, and
- speakersome what you see as some
- speakerimportant signposts
- speakeralong the way that kind of led you
- speakerinto the work that you eventually
- speakerwound up doing for the Presbyterian
- speakerChurch.
- speakerOkay, Doug, that's a
- speakerthat's a subject that's capable of a
- speakerlot of deep exploration.
- speakerLet's give it a whirl.
- speakerI was born in Tulsa, Oklahoma,
- speakerin 1926.
- speakerMy father and mother
- speakerhad come there a couple of years
- speakerbefore.
- speakerOut of the Missouri Ozarks, where
- speakerboth of them had been raised.
- speakerMy father was at that point,
- speakera part time employee of the
- speakerPostal Service.
- speakerAnd my mother was a housewife.
- speakerThey were both
- speakerof mountain stock
- speakerfrom several generations back in
- speakerAmerican history, Kentucky,
- speakerTennessee and so forth, farmers
- speakerin the Missouri Ozarks.
- speakerMy mother was one of
- speakereight children who
- speakerhad, with her own mother, raised
- speakermost of the family after being
- speakerdeserted by her father.
- speakerMy father was one of 13 children.
- speakerMother had a high school education.
- speakerDad had only five
- speakeryears of formal schooling,
- speakeralthough he read and fought
- speakerthrough much of his life.
- speakerBut they were part of that mountain
- speakerheritage of hardscrabble
- speakerfarms and hardscrabble
- speakerreligion. They were both primitive
- speakerBaptists
- speakercoming from generations of
- speakerBaptists, hard shell Baptists,
- speakerrevivalist Baptists, preachers,
- speakerand so on.
- speakerIn fact, my my father's
- speakergrandfather had
- speakercome to Missouri, one of his
- speakergrandfathers as
- speakera circuit riding hard shell Baptist
- speakerpreacher from Kentucky,
- speakera man named Sam Hardy.
- speakerAfter a couple
- speakerof years there, my dad got a chance
- speakerto be a regular employee
- speakerof the Postal Service, moved
- speakerto a little town in Missouri,
- speakerwhere he was a rural
- speakermail carrier
- speakeron a route there, Archie, Missouri.
- speakerThen we moved to a county seat
- speakertown in Cass County, Missouri,
- speakercalled Harrisonville
- speakerwhen I was about four years old, and
- speakerthat's where I grew up.
- speakerWe were members of the Baptist
- speakerChurch there in Harrisonville.
- speakerI was fortunate, I think, in a way,
- speakerto grow up under the
- speakerpreaching of a
- speakerCanadian Baptist Calvinist
- speakerwho had somehow wandered down into
- speakerMissouri during those depression
- speakeryears.
- speakerAnd I
- speakerthink back and realize that a lot
- speakerof my own innate sense
- speakerof Calvinist theology
- speakercame really out of the preaching
- speakerof brother A.P. Wilson there
- speakerin that Baptist church in
- speakerHarrisonville, later
- speakerserved by a young, well-educated
- speakerprogressive Baptist just out of
- speakerseminary in Kansas City, Lloyd
- speakerCollins, who later became
- speakeran official of the Missouri Baptist
- speakerConvention.
- speakerSo while it was part of that,
- speakeryou know, solid Midwestern
- speakerconservative Revivalist Baptist
- speakertradition, there were
- speakera couple of things in there that
- speakergave me, I think, a little
- speakera little more open angle on
- speakerthe faith than some of the churches
- speakerhad.
- speakerI was typically converted
- speakerin a summer revival when I was nine
- speakeryears old, baptized in the church
- speakerand active
- speakerin all of the affairs of youth
- speakerfrom Sunday school, sword drill
- speakercontests and memory
- speakerverse contests and
- speakermy knowledge of the English
- speakerscripture
- speakerroots in those years, which I
- speakermemorized half of it for
- speakerfour contests and learned how to
- speakerlook at the other half for sword
- speakerdrills. So that's
- speakera heritage, by the way, I've always
- speakerappreciated and really
- speakerlook back on with with
- speakerpleasure.
- speakerI went through the
- speaker12 years of grade in elementary
- speakerschool in Harrisonville
- speakerwith a little group of folk who
- speakerI still maintain some contact with.
- speakerAbout 30 of us, a small school
- speakeron graduation from high school.
- speakerAnd in 1944,
- speakerI joined the Navy
- speakerin a special program they had for
- speakerelectronics technicians at that
- speakerpoint.
- speakerIn fact we used to brag that when
- speakerpeople flunked out of the program
- speakerwe had they sent them to officers
- speakerschool, which was in fact true.
- speakerProgram set up by Commander Eddy
- speakerto deal with this newfangled radar
- speakerthat had just been done.
- speakerI was in training for that program
- speakeruntil the summer of 1945, actually,
- speakerand when I finished it and
- speakergot orders to ship to
- speakerCalifornia for shaping
- speakerup to invade Japan, by the time I
- speakergot to California, the bombs had
- speakerbeen dropped, The war was over
- speakerand I sat in Alameda Naval
- speakerAir Station for a while.
- speakerI got discharged, went back
- speakerhome to Missouri.
- speakerI was by then
- speakerstill not quite 20
- speakeryears old.
- speakerMatter of fact,
- speakerI enrolled that
- speakerfall in a little Baptist college
- speakerup in Missouri, Liberty,
- speakerMissouri. William Jewell College,
- speakertried to get into the University of
- speakerChicago, couldn't, you know, 11
- speakermillion veterans were trying to go
- speakerto school that same year.
- speakerThat was close to home.
- speakerI hitchhiked up one time and
- speakercould get in there and did.
- speakerI doubled up some courses
- speakerand went through William Jewell in
- speakersix semesters,
- speakergraduating with the class of 1949.
- speakerAnd while there
- speakerI was active in a lot of things.
- speakerI was president of the senior class
- speakercommander of the fraternity
- speakerin the debate squad and
- speakerall kinds of honor societies and
- speakerso forth.
- speakerPhilosophy club,
- speakerI suppose a couple of influences
- speakerthat later helped shape me
- speakerwere that I had a couple of
- speakerphilosophy professors who were
- speakerboth graduates of the Yale Divinity
- speakerSchool.
- speakerBoth of them ended up, as a matter
- speakerof fact, at the institution where
- speakeryou've served.
- speakerI was going to ask you that.
- speakerLeonard Duce and Guy Ranson.
- speakerLen was at
- speakerthat time the dean of William Jewell
- speakerCollege and professor head of
- speakerthe philosophy department.
- speakerGuy Ranson had come recently
- speakeras a professor in that department,
- speakeralso taught some Bible courses, I
- speakerthink things like that.
- speakerThey both later became
- speakerPresbyterians, as I did
- speakerwhen they went down to Trinity.
- speakerBut I had
- speakerI had enjoyed
- speakerclasswork with both of them
- speakerand in fact was a teaching assistant
- speakerfor Guy for a while, teaching some
- speakerof the courses in logic and
- speakerphilosophy
- speakerand had
- speakerargued religion.
- speakerI was not part of the Ministerial
- speakerAssociation group and nothing like
- speakerthat. That was just simply
- speakerI was already
- speakerat serious odds with
- speakerwith organized religion, with with
- speakerBaptist practice and with
- speakerfundamentalism in general and
- speakerso on, and could hardly stomach
- speakerwhat I saw going on.
- speakerAnd, you know, among some of the
- speakerso-called ministerial club people
- speakerand so on.
- speakerIt's not that I was so highly
- speakersecularized or anything like that, I
- speakerjust a different intellectual sense
- speakerof what it was all about.
- speakerBut
- speakerat the end of the years
- speakerin William Jewell, I get ready to
- speakergraduate.
- speakerI had decided to go to
- speakerYale Law School, a fraternity patron
- speakerhad graduated from that school many
- speakeryears ago and
- speakerhad been talking to me about that,
- speakerand I happened to run into Guy
- speakerRanson on the campus one day and
- speakerhe asked what I was going to do in
- speakerthe fall. I told him I was going to
- speakerYale Law School and he said to me,
- speakerYou've still got GI time left,
- speakerhaven't you? Yeah I said I got some. He
- speakersays, You should go to Yale Divinity
- speakerSchool for a year and
- speakerjust see, you argue so much
- speakerabout religion, you ought to go and
- speakerfind out what it's really like
- speakersomeplace other than where you've
- speakergrown up in this Missouri Southern
- speakerBaptist Mountain tradition.
- speakerSo I told
- speakerhim I couldn't get in. It's too
- speakerlate, you know. And
- speakerI remember him saying to me, if I
- speakercan if you can get in,
- speakerif I can get you in, would you go
- speakerfor a year? Sure, you know.
- speakerAnd about ten days later, I got a
- speakerletter from Yale Divinity School
- speakersaying I'd been accepted for the
- speakerfall term in the
- speakerYale Divinity School.
- speakerAnd so I went
- speakerbecause I hadn't made any
- speakerarrangements for scholarship
- speakerassistance or anything, which I
- speakerwould have needed.
- speakerFamily, of course, being very poor
- speakerand all.
- speakerSo I got on a train
- speakeror bus or something, a train,
- speakerand went to New Haven
- speakerin the fall.
- speakerAnd naturally when I got
- speakerthere and in a little while I got
- speakerhooked and loved it and
- speakerstayed.
- speakerAt the end of my first year, I
- speakerhad written back to the Missouri
- speakerBaptists to say
- speakerif there was any summer work, see if
- speakerthere's any summer work for for me.
- speakerAnd I got a letter back advising
- speakerme in no uncertain terms that there
- speakerwould be no summer work for any
- speakerBaptist who was going to Yale
- speakerDivinity School in Missouri.
- speakerSo about that time,
- speakeranother one of my dear
- speakerpatrons and
- speakerfriends
- speakercame through Yale and put up a sign
- speakeron the bulletin board saying anybody
- speakerinterested in doing summer field
- speakerwork in Arkansas should come to see
- speakerL. Burney Shell.
- speakerAnd Burney
- speakerwas an old Texas pastor
- speakerwhom I learned later.
- speakerBurney just died
- speakera few months ago, aged 95 or 96, in
- speakera nursing home in Texas,
- speakerHereford, Texas.
- speakerBurney was one of the signers of the
- speakerAuburn Affirmation back in 25,
- speaker26 as a little pastor
- speakerof a little church down in Tennessee.
- speakerAnd he signed it.
- speakerBut I would see
- speakerhim and I told him
- speakerI was a Baptist, but
- speakerthe Baptist wouldn't hire me.
- speakerAnd would there any possibility
- speakerthat I could work for
- speakerhim in Arkansas?
- speakerHe says, Well, you know, you don't
- speakerhave to go around telling everybody
- speakeryou're a Baptist and let me see
- speakerwhat I can do.
- speakerSo I soon got a
- speakerletter from him saying if I wanted
- speakerto go down to a little town called
- speakerGreenwood, Arkansas,
- speakerfor the summer, they had
- speakera little parish set up there with
- speakerGreenwood and Hartford
- speakerand a little town called Clyde.
- speakerI think it was, no
- speakerthat was later.
- speakerGreenwood and Hartford,
- speakera couple coal mining towns.
- speakerHartford was.
- speakerSo I went down there and spent the
- speakersummer and at the end of the summer
- speakerthe
- speakerfolk came and said they understood
- speakerthat it was possible to stay for
- speakerintern years under certain
- speakercircumstances and would I
- speakerbe interested. And I thought about
- speakerit and thought, well, maybe I might.
- speakerThere was a wonderful couple
- speakerof old Scotch folk down
- speakerthere, a banker named Wilkinson
- speakerfamily and a woman named
- speakerOverton, who were kind of the
- speakermuckety mucks of the church.
- speakerAnd I told Burney
- speakerShell that I really
- speakerdidn't think it was fair for me to
- speakerstay and not have those folks
- speakerknow I was not a Presbyterian
- speakerbecause it might leak out at some
- speakerpoint during a full year.
- speakerSo we called a session meeting.
- speakerBernie did, and came down and
- speakermoderated it, and
- speakerI told him I was interested in
- speakerstaying, but that
- speakerthey should know that I was not
- speakera Presbyterian.
- speakerWell, Mr. Wilkinson said, What are
- speakeryou?
- speakerI'm a Baptist.
- speakerThe great silence in
- speakerthe whole room. Complete silence.
- speakerHe says, Well, are you planning to
- speakerbecome a Presbyterian?
- speakerI said, Well, I don't know.
- speakerI haven't really finally decided
- speakeryet. And
- speakerwould it have to be known that
- speakeryou're not a Presbyterian?
- speakerNo, it wouldn't have to be known.
- speakerSo they decided to have me whether I
- speakerwas going to be a Presbyterian or
- speakernot.
- speakerLater on during the year, I did join
- speakerthe church and applied to go under
- speakercare of presbytery,
- speakerwhat was the old Fort Smith
- speakerPresbytery of the Synod of Arkansas,
- speakerand was received
- speakerunder the care of that Presbytery
- speakerand probably have one of
- speakerthe few letters of transfer
- speakerextant from a Baptist
- speakerChurch of the Southern Convention to
- speakera Presbyterian church.
- speakerBecause my home church in
- speakerHarrisonville, which
- speakerby the way, had licensed me to
- speakerpreach, I was licensed to preach as
- speakera Southern Baptist. When
- speakerI wrote the letter up to
- speakermy father and
- speakerto the pastor of that church saying
- speakerwhat I decided to do,
- speakerBoard of Deacons met and
- speakerconsidered this matter, I requested
- speakera letter of transfer and
- speakerthey considered this matter.
- speakerAnd of course, that's strictly
- speakeragainst Baptist policy.
- speakerBut one of the dear old deacons of
- speakerthe church said, listen, that boy
- speakerwas raised in this church.
- speakerWe licensed him to preach and he
- speakerloves the Lord.
- speakerAnd I move that we send
- speakera letter of transfer to the
- speakerPresbyterian Church of Greenwood, Arkansas.
- speakerAnd they did.
- speakerSo it's on the, it's on the records
- speakerdown there.
- speakerI was taken into care of Presbytery,
- speakerwent on back at
- speakerthe end of that intern period and
- speakerfinished my work at Yale.
- speakerThere was a move in Presbytery to
- speakerrequire me to go to Presbyterian
- speakerSeminary.
- speakerAnd I remember Burney Shell,
- speakerdelightful man, standing
- speakerup and saying, Listen, this man is
- speakergoing back to Yale.
- speakerHe's going to study polity under
- speakerWalter David Knight, Bino Knight.
- speakerAnd if I
- speakerunless I miss my bet, he
- speakersays he will come out knowing and
- speakerloving the Presbyterian Church more
- speakerthan anybody who goes to Princeton.
- speakerSo now that to be true.
- speakerI don't know if you ever heard of Bino Knight, he
- speakerwas a great, great
- speakerman, great teacher of polity.
- speakerHe was. A representative of the
- speakerboard of the National Mission's
- speakerSunday School Missionary and
- speakerChristian Education in the old Synod
- speakerof New England, taught
- speakerpolity at Yale.
- speakerOn his retirement, he went out and
- speakertaught polity at San Anselmo
- speakerfor several years, was greatly
- speakerloved.
- speakerSo Burney persuaded them.
- speakerAnd they let me go back to Yale
- speakerinstead of taking Presbyterian
- speakertraining. So I never had courses
- speakerin Presbyterian Seminary or
- speakerPresbyterian College either one.
- speakerWhen I left Yale, it was to
- speakercome back
- speakerto Springdale, Arkansas,
- speakerat the Presbyterian Church there,
- speakerwhich was part of a larger parish.
- speakerAnd Burney was following my
- speakermy course of studies and got me back
- speakerdown there.
- speakerAnd in April of 53,
- speakerI left Yale a term early in order to
- speakercome down and take the church, which
- speakerwas a new church development that
- speakerhad not been going well.
- speakerAnd the organizing pastor
- speakerhad been asked to leave and
- speakerhad done so.
- speakerSo I got married
- speakeron the 29th of March to my
- speakerold college sweetheart who had
- speakerfinally agreed to marry me
- speakerand on the 5th of April, started
- speakerworking in Springdale, Arkansas, and
- speakergot ordained on the 12th
- speakerby the Presbytery of
- speakerI believe by this point it had
- speakerbecome the Presbytery of North
- speakerArkansas, of the Synod of
- speakerOklahoma-Arkansas.
- speakerSo what year is this now?
- speaker50, This is 53.
- speaker53.
- speaker1953.
- speakerI had graduated from college in 49,
- speakerthe Centennial
- speakerClass at William Jewell College,
- speakerand this was
- speaker53.
- speakerAnd June and I were married and went
- speakerdown and started this work.
- speakerOh, I had
- speakerpersuaded a friend of mine
- speakerfrom Yale
- speakerto, Dick Mead, Richard Mead, to
- speakercome down also to Arkansas and take
- speakera part of that same larger parish.
- speakerDick later went to Vanderbilt and
- speakertaught New Testament until he
- speakerdied several years ago.
- speakerA degenerative ailment of some
- speakerkind.
- speakerAt the same time, into that
- speakersame presbytery
- speakercame Herbie Anderson
- speakerfrom McCormick, who ended up at
- speakerBrick Church and is still at
- speakerBrick Church in New York.
- speakerAs a matter of fact, Bob Moser,
- speakerwho's now pastor of Grace Church
- speakerin Wichita, Kansas,
- speakerBill Gibson was there at that time.
- speakerBill Knox, Ed Brubaker was
- speakerit later became Synod
- speakerexecutive was there.
- speakerTom Wilson who ended up it
- speakerwas a marvelous presbytery,
- speakerjust really great,
- speakergreat bunch of folks.
- speakerAnd we had a good time together
- speakerfor five years.
- speakerAnd that was during the period to
- speakercivil rights period and back and
- speakerforth in Little Rock and organizing
- speakerArkansas Citizens for Orderly
- speakerCompliance and all kinds of things,
- speakergetting ourselves roundly denounced
- speakerhere, there and yonder.
- speakerBut most of us
- speakerwere able to
- speakeror I think, be fairly clear in our
- speakerwitness and still enjoy the respect
- speakerand confidence of folk in our
- speakercongregations that disagreed with us
- speakeropenly.
- speakerIt was an interesting time for me
- speakerand I
- speakerthink was very formative also
- speakerin helping
- speakerme understand how
- speakerwithin the context
- speakerof Presbyterian commitments to
- speakerthe orderly process,
- speakerto careful institutional
- speakerauthorizations of things
- speakerand of give and
- speakertake in open discussion of
- speakerthe defense
- speakerof of all alternative
- speakerpoints of view with the insistence
- speakerthat they must be engaged openly
- speakerin dialog. And it all
- speakerhelped me learn a lot of things
- speakerthat were important to me in
- speakerlater years as I took up
- speakerthe work that I
- speakerlater came to.
- speakerIn 1958,
- speakerI took a couple of months
- speakeroff the church to go back to Eden
- speakerSeminary in Saint
- speakerLouis to finish up to finish
- speakera couple of courses.
- speakerLong story. I had left Yale
- speakerthinking I had enough credits to
- speakergraduate. I was supposed to write an
- speakerextra paper for Richard Niebuhr,
- speakernever got the paper done
- speakerand therefore lost the extra credit
- speakerand didn't have enough to graduate
- speakerand didn't have a diploma.
- speakerI was in fact ordained and
- speakerpracticing without a
- speakerseminary degree.
- speakerSo Yale finally said, If you don't
- speakerfinish it up now, we're going to
- speakerclose the books on you.
- speakerSo I went back to Eden and
- speakertook several courses, Walt Brueggemann
- speakerand was one of my classmates in some
- speakerof those courses,
- speakerstudied with Elmer Arndt, Richard
- speakerNiebuhr, and finished up enough
- speakercourses to get the degree at
- speakerYale. So technically I was 58
- speakerclass of 58 at Yale, even though I
- speakerleft at 53.
- speakerAnd while I
- speakerwas there, I got a call from
- speakerDon Lester, who had become secretary
- speakerof the Division of Evangelism
- speakerfollowing Chuck Templeton's
- speakerresignation and move to
- speakerCanada and leaving
- speakerthe ministry.
- speakerBig scandal in the church.
- speakerLost his faith and so on, terrible.
- speakerChuck, by the way, was a fascinating
- speakerman.
- speakerI thoroughly enjoyed knowing
- speakerhim.
- speakerI had been active in
- speakerthe Synod and Presbytery
- speakerin my five years in Arkansas, both
- speakerin the evangelism area and
- speakerin the social action area.
- speakerI'd been Synod Evangelism Chairman,
- speakerPresbytery of Social Action
- speakerchairman, and had always
- speakerinsisted on trying to keep those
- speakertwo aspects of public
- speakerwitness for the church
- speakerin some creative
- speakersynthesis.
- speakerBeing a Baptist, what else could I
- speakerdo?
- speakerDon called me and asked
- speakerif I would be willing to consider
- speakertaking the Western Area
- speakerOffice of the Division of Evangelism
- speakeror National Missions at that point.
- speakerThey were organized with area
- speakeroffices as well as a headquarters
- speakerstaff. It was all part of one staff,
- speakerbut they had offices in various
- speakerparts of the country
- speakerand a man who had been in the
- speakerwestern area for quite a number of
- speakeryears was getting ready to retire.
- speakerDon was anxious to
- speakerchange the image of the
- speakerdivision and get some new
- speakerprograms and new blood going.
- speakerAnd I
- speakerhad come to know him in
- speakerthe various regional
- speakerconferences and things on evangelism
- speakerthat the church in older days
- speakerused to have, where they would bring
- speakerin Synod and Presbytery folk
- speakerand work with the national staff.
- speakerI miss them very much.
- speakerI think they were great, great
- speakerthings.
- speakerAnd so I did.
- speakerI agreed to do that and
- speakertherefore left Springdale after five
- speakeryears, having
- speakerresisted other blandishments before
- speakerthat time.
- speakerBut it felt good and right
- speakerto do that.
- speakerWe moved to San Francisco,
- speakerwhere the Western area office was,
- speakerand was there a couple of years
- speakerwhen in 1950.
- speakerThat was in 1958.
- speakerThen in 1960,
- speakerBill Morrison, whom I had gotten
- speakerto know in the church officer
- speakertraining program while still
- speakeran officer, while still a pastor
- speakerin Arkansas.
- speakerI'd been recruited to be part of
- speakerthat church officer
- speakertraining program at the Board of
- speakerChristian Education, ran all over
- speakerthe church in those late
- speakerfifties years,
- speakerand in the preparation meetings
- speakerfor that in Atlantic City, I had
- speakercome to know Bill Morrison and
- speakerChristian education staff and so on.
- speakerThat was the group that a Board of
- speakerChristian Education assembled,
- speakerof which Gene Blake said
- speakerwhen he
- speakerwas at the first training meeting in
- speakerAtlantic City to give an address,
- speakeris reputed to have said as he looked
- speakerat these folks and these are
- speakersupposed to be the future leaders
- speakerof the church? I don't know any of
- speakerthese people.
- speakerBut Gene learned that a lot of them
- speakerwere really the future leadership of
- speakerthe church, as a matter of fact.
- speakerIn 60 Bill Morrison called me and
- speakersaid he had just begun
- speakerwork as the head of the Board of
- speakerChristian Education upon Paul Calvin
- speakerPayne's retirement
- speakerand
- speakerwas anxious to reorganize some
- speakerthings, get some things going and
- speakersaid he wanted to start a new
- speakerdivision of social education
- speakerand evangelism to tie together
- speakera concern for evangelism and social
- speakerissues and education about that and
- speakerwanted me to to be the
- speakerperson in that office.
- speakerAnd I agreed to do that.
- speakerSo in October 1960,
- speakerwe moved back to
- speakerPhiladelphia to start work for the
- speakerBoard of Christian Education,
- speakerwhich begins
- speakerthe history of my
- speakerwork in the social issues that
- speakerled me to the Church and Society
- speakerjob.
- speakerAnd you may want to
- speakerstop and probe some of that earlier
- speakertime before we would be discussing.
- speakerI guess, one area that was a little
- speakerbit more interested in in terms of
- speakerthe actual
- speakercontent of your of your
- speakerteaching there at Yale.
- speakerRichard Niebuhr there.
- speakerAnd what
- speakerwhat particularly
- speakerin looking back on that
- speakerthat period and just in just in
- speakerterms of of any concrete
- speakerideas that you remember coming
- speakerout of that period in
- speakerregard to your theological
- speakerformation?
- speakerWell, it was it was
- speakerit was a critical period for me of
- speakercoming out of a,
- speakeryou know, modestly
- speakereffective, I suppose, little four
- speakeryear denominational college in
- speakerMissouri and Baptist thing.
- speakerBut after the Second World War, with
- speakerthese millions of people descending,
- speakerI mean, all the standards went to
- speakerhell. You know, this government
- speakermoney was floating around and
- speakeranybody took anybody would get in.
- speakerI had zoomed through William Jewell
- speakerCollege with
- speakerno problem at all.
- speakerI hadn't particularly studied or
- speakeranything else made A's and B's and
- speakerjust no real challenge
- speakerto it, took 25 hours at a time
- speakerand, you know, 20 hours of A and 5
- speakerhours of B and
- speakera lot of playing and and
- speakerfraternity work and extracurricular
- speakeractivities on the side
- speakerfrazzled myself out my senior year.
- speakerBut and
- speakerthen I hit I hit this
- speakerand I was all of a sudden
- speakerin in school with all
- speakerthese folk that were, yeah they were
- speakercoming out of Princeton and,
- speakeryou know, Antioch and University
- speakerof Chicago.
- speakerAnd these people were really
- speakerthey were well-prepared.
- speakerThey were
- speakerthey knew a lot more than I
- speakerknew and had
- speakera lot better patterns
- speakerof intellectual inquiry and thought
- speakerthat had been drilled into them.
- speakerMy habit was simply to read the book
- speakerthe night before the test and then
- speakergo in and ace it, which, you
- speakerknow, you retain some stuff.
- speakerThese folk had learned how to study
- speakerand compete and so
- speakeron. So I found myself in a
- speakerin a demanding and competitive
- speakeracademic atmosphere for the first
- speakertime in my life.
- speakerI'd zoomed through high school, the
- speakerhead of Everything in Sight made the
- speakerbest record anybody had ever made in
- speakerthe high school up to that point.
- speakerI'd zoomed through college without
- speakerany real effort, and here
- speakerall of a sudden, I.
- speakerAnd it was it was marvelous.
- speakerIt was extremely stimulating
- speakerand exciting
- speakerfor me to be in an environment
- speakerwhere not only the professors, but
- speakerother students tested you and
- speakerpushed you and were better than you
- speakerwere and knew more than
- speakeryou did.
- speakerAnd
- speakerfor the first time, to really
- speakerbe in a situation where I could
- speakerexplore
- speakerthe questions I had about the
- speakerchurch, its doctrines, its history,
- speakerits posture, its
- speakergovernance in a context
- speakerwhere whatever ideas
- speakerI had were not immediately branded
- speakeras ridiculous as they were
- speakeroften, and where they would be
- speakertreated with seriousness and where
- speakerthere were resources that I could
- speakerexplore the context
- speakerand history and depth of those
- speakerthings. It's a marvelous time for
- speakerme.
- speakerThe
- speakerthe most influential
- speakerforces during that period for me
- speakerwere Richard Niebuhr.
- speakerIt is hard to describe
- speakerthe the effect
- speakerthis man had on
- speakerstudents.
- speakerHe was not particularly
- speakera terribly articulate
- speakerlecturer.
- speakerHe would wrestle with himself
- speakeras he lectured physically
- speakeras well as verbally,
- speakerbut the depth of his care
- speakerand the willingness that he had
- speakerto to spend hours
- speakerwith a class with you as an
- speakerindividual
- speakerstruggling through
- speakerquestions and issues and
- speakerblocks that to him must have been,
- speakeryou know, stuff that was
- speakerold hat and all but he
- speakerwould invest with, with fresh
- speakerclarity as if he were hearing
- speakerfor the first time these
- speakerthese confusions or doubts.
- speakerIt just was a tremendously
- speakeropening experience for me and
- speakerhis
- speakerhis teaching of
- speakertheological ethics
- speakeras an exercise
- speakerin
- speakerthe exploration of
- speakerthe responsibility
- speakerthat Christians have
- speakerin relationship to God's
- speakerrevelation and to the
- speakerpersonal and social context in which
- speakerthere's his famous triad
- speakerand his
- speakerfamous. I still remember
- speakerone series of lectures, which
- speakerI've ever since said
- speakeris the basis of my own
- speakerethical theory is not deontological.
- speakerYou know, it's not teleological.
- speakerIt's cathēkontilogical.
- speakerI find hardly anybody knows what
- speakerthat word even means.
- speakerI don't.
- speakerKathēkontos is the Greek word for
- speakerfitting or appropriate
- speakerthe apt thing, the appropriate
- speakerthing.
- speakerAnd it's a Greek word that
- speakerNiebuhr used in his
- speakeras he went through all these types
- speakerof ethics, he would finally come
- speakerdown to this kind
- speakerof sense that the
- speakerthe ethical thing to do
- speakeris the thing which is appropriate
- speakerin this contextual relationship
- speakerwith gospel, with spirit,
- speakerwith the community, with
- speakeroneself, and with the context
- speakerout there.
- speakerWhat what is appropriate given
- speakerthose and
- speakerthat intersection that's
- speakerethical, not what necessarily is in
- speakerthe rule, not what necessarily leads
- speakerto sort of a conclusion you've
- speakeralready decided, and
- speakerI've learned ever since,
- speakerto to try to
- speakerstruggle
- speakerfor integrity in
- speakerthat sense, not what
- speakersome rule somewhere says.
- speakerProbably one doesn't ignore the
- speakerrules, not what some
- speakerobjective may call you to do, not
- speakerwhat the tradition has, if anything,
- speakerbut what in the light of all
- speakerof that and in the fresh and in
- speakerbreaking spirit, what
- speakerreally is the appropriate
- speakerthing to do that obeys the gospel,
- speakerhonors the word, redeems
- speakerthe world, expresses love whatever.
- speakerSo that concept of the
- speakercathēkontilogical
- speakerhas been a powerful shaping
- speakerforce.
- speakerDavie Napier was an enormous
- speakerinfluence on me and I guess a lot
- speakerof people.
- speakerDavie was never a great
- speakerscholar. I guess I don't even know
- speakerhe didn't stay at Yale too long.
- speakerHe went out on out to Stanford
- speakeror yeah to Stanford for a while,
- speakerwent into PSR, go
- speakerback to Yale as master of Calvin
- speakerCollege, and he didn't
- speakerwrite a lot of books and things like
- speakerthat. But I mean, that man
- speakercould make the Old Testament
- speakerlive
- speakerand breathe
- speakerand and have power in
- speakera way that,
- speakerin spite of my intimate knowledge
- speakerof the English Bible gained
- speakerin Southern Baptist circles,
- speakerI did not know it as a living,
- speakerdynamic, powerful
- speakeraccount of the life
- speakerof people and of
- speakerthe intersection of God
- speakerwith human history.
- speakerDavie's lecture on I think it's the
- speaker22nd chapter of Genesis,
- speakerwhere Abraham takes
- speakerIsaac up to sacrifice
- speakerand is spared from that
- speakerwas something that
- speakergenerations of students, I guess,
- speakertell about, but I
- speakerremember that, take your son,
- speakeryour only son Isaac,
- speakerbut just in general, his
- speakerhis opening of of
- speakerthe revelation, the Scriptures
- speakeras a living, breathing, vital
- speakerhuman document with all
- speakerits ambiguities and passions and
- speakerpower as a
- speakercontemporary human force,
- speakerstayed
- speakerwith me. It converted
- speakera kind
- speakerof knowledge of the Scripture
- speakerinto
- speakera sense of Scripture as as
- speakera as authority in
- speakerlife to be
- speakerwrestled with, to be accounted
- speakerfor, not simply to be parroted
- speakeror kind
- speakerof put in as proof
- speakertext or signature or
- speakeror something like that.
- speakerFrank Young was a
- speakersimilar influence on me in
- speakerthe New Testament area,
- speakernot because he taught so much New
- speakerTestament, but because he taught
- speakerGreek and the way he taught Greek.
- speakerHe had later went to the University
- speakerof Pennsylvania, I think again was
- speakernever a big scholar never wrote a
- speakerlot of books but was a marvelous
- speakerteacher.
- speakerSo as you can see, it was in this
- speakerarea of biblical
- speakertheological ethics, of of
- speakerNew Testament, Old Testament.
- speakerAnd the other influence was not
- speakerI never had a class under Ken
- speakerLatourette as a lot
- speakerof people did.
- speakerI never had a class with Roland
- speakerBainton.
- speakerIs that right?
- speakerI
- speakergot was assigned to Richard Wolff
- speakerfor faculty advice when I first went
- speakerup there, and he taught American
- speakerchurch history. So he touted me into
- speakerAmerican church history and
- speakerI had my requirements fulfilled and
- speakernever, never got a class from Roland Bainton
- speakerwhich I regretted and never had
- speakera class from Ken Latourette,
- speakerbut for some time
- speakerI was in
- speakerI was in a, I guess,
- speakerwhat you'd call today of a prayer
- speakergroup or something with
- speakerKen.
- speakerHe always had two or three groups
- speakergoing where four or five
- speakerstudents
- speakerwould meet with him in the morning
- speakeror in the evening or something once
- speakera week for prayer
- speakerand devotion and discussion
- speakerand reflection.
- speakerAnd I was privileged for
- speakera period of time to be in one of
- speakerthose and just the the
- speakeracquaintance and friendship
- speakerand spiritual
- speakergrounding of that experience.
- speakerI went to chapel at Yale and,
- speakeryou know, stuff like that.
- speakerBut that was my
- speakerfirst experience with a genuinely
- speakerauthentic, in my view,
- speakersmall community of spiritual
- speakerdiscipline and practice.
- speakerI'd been in Sunday school, I'd been
- speakerin, you know, BYPU
- speakerand all that kind of stuff.
- speakerBut nothing,
- speakernothing like that.
- speakerI had been I had flirted
- speakeronce or twice with prayer groups
- speakerin in the
- speakercollege. William Jewell.
- speakerBut that was so syrupped
- speakerup with these ministerial student
- speakergroups that I couldn't take that.
- speakerI had been to some
- speakeryouth for Christ stuff when I was in
- speakerthe Navy down in Texas,
- speakerand that didn't take it was a place
- speakerto meet girls.
- speakerAnd that was an interesting
- speakerenterprise in those days,
- speakerbut it didn't have any real
- speakerspiritual. That was my first
- speakerexperience with disciplined,
- speakerauthentic, spiritual
- speakerspiritual life, and
- speakerit was a powerful
- speakershaping force and Ken Latourette
- speakerbecame a good personal friend.
- speakerWe stayed in touch and he loaned me
- speakermoney a couple of times and
- speakerand things like that.
- speakerI guess those were, I
- speakerbecame aware of
- speakersocial issues.
- speakerI did a study under Liston Pope
- speakerwho was teaching around then. Oh I think I
- speakermarched on picket lines a couple of
- speakertimes, down Winchester Arms, which
- speakerwas down the hill,
- speakerbut in my, neither in my field
- speakerwork nor in my
- speakerstudies did I get a lot of stuff
- speakeron on social ethics.
- speakerI played in a bridge set with
- speakerpeople like William Lee Miller, in a
- speakerbridge group, and Ernie Lefever
- speakerand
- speakerBill May and some folk like that.
- speakerAnd there was a lot of talk and
- speakerdiscussion in those things about
- speakersocial issues and all.
- speakerBut that's not really
- speakerwhere my sense of passion
- speakerfor social
- speakerthings that I later
- speakermoved into more clearly got
- speakerformed. I brought it with me.
- speakerI got it out of the Baptist
- speakerpreaching, I got it out of that
- speakerCalvinist sense of judgment
- speakeron the world, and particularly
- speakerout of Davie Napier's
- speakerbeautiful way of
- speakerinterpreting how the
- speakerthe prophetic and eschatological
- speakervisions of the Old Testament
- speakerof justice and peace and
- speakerrighteousness
- speakerwere meant to have effect in
- speakerthe world we live in, not simply in
- speakersome world to come.
- speakerSo I actually got my passion for
- speakersocial justice out of Calvinist,
- speakerpreaching from a Canadian Baptist
- speakerdown in the heart
- speakerof the Bible Belt and out of Old
- speakerTestament study from
- speakera poet. Davie Napier's a poet.
- speakerThat's interesting.
- speakerYou know last night, Martin Marty
- speakerwas talking about three things that
- speakerhe said were
- speakerwhat the contemporary world was
- speakerlooking for in terms of religion, he
- speakersaid the experience
- speakerwanted some sentiments, experience
- speakerand identity, who they are,
- speakerwhere they've come from and some
- speakerunderstanding of authority.
- speakerAnd it seems to me you've
- speakerdescribed that matrix
- speakerin a in a
- speakerkind of contextual way for
- speakerfor your particular
- speakersetting those elements.
- speakerWell, I would add something to that.
- speakerI think I would quarrel
- speakerwith anything
- speakerMarty would have said.
- speakerI think the world is hungry
- speakerfor vision.
- speakerNow, for a
- speakervision that has authority
- speakeror authoritative vision.
- speakerBut I remember reading
- speakera couple of years ago about
- speakerKurt Vonnegut's visit
- speakerback to East
- speakerGermany, to Dresden,
- speakerwhen it was the first time he'd been
- speakerback since the firebombing.
- speakerAnd, you know, his own
- speakerexperience which he recounted in
- speakerSlaughterhouse-Five. First time he'd
- speakerbeen back.
- speakerAnd he was on East German television
- speakerand being interviewed and so forth.
- speakerAnd he
- speakerwas asked if there was any,
- speakeryou know, any word
- speakerhe had, that he
- speakerthought the world ought to hear
- speakerto say, what one thing he thought
- speakerwas
- speakerwas the biggest problem in
- speakerthe modern world as he now reflected
- speakeron.
- speakerAnd he said the biggest problem
- speakeris loneliness and the lack of
- speakervision.
- speakerOne problem
- speakerand I was very
- speakerimpressed by that because I remember
- speakerthat Old Testament
- speakersense of what happens
- speakerwhen the vision
- speakerrise up and the promise
- speakerthat in the community that
- speakerGod restores old men,
- speakerdream dreams, young men, and so on
- speakerand so forth.
- speakerThe context of the community
- speakerand the vision.
- speakerMartin Luther King's power
- speakerin our life
- speakerwas not authority.
- speakerIt was the ability
- speakerto to generate
- speakera sense of how things might
- speakerbe that
- speakerwere not yet
- speakerand why it was important
- speakerthat those things be rooted
- speakerin some knowledge, a deep knowledge
- speakerof who we were
- speakeras a nation and as a people.
- speakerAnd to articulate and articulate
- speakerthat in a way that people not only
- speakerfelt it to be possible and
- speakerdesirable, but something toward
- speakerwhich we could move something to
- speakerwork which we can work, something
- speakerthat we could go after, for
- speakerPete's sake.
- speakerAnd I think the contemporary
- speakerchurch and the contemporary world
- speakeris hungry for
- speakerthat sense of authentic,
- speakerauthoritative
- speakervision.
- speakerSomething that resonates deeply
- speakerin both the
- speakersocial and individual psyche.
- speakerThat brings a recognition
- speakerthat is truly part
- speakerof who and what we are.
- speakerPotentially, not something
- speakeralien to our sense
- speakerof self.
- speakerSo the identity
- speakeris there, but something
- speakerthat is not yet, but which could be
- speakerand we'll go for it
- speakerbecause, you know.
- speakerMartin or whatever
- speakerthe preacher or the General Assembly
- speakeror the president lays that
- speakerout. And we haven't had that.
- speakerJohn Kennedy for a while
- speakerawakened some of that sense.
- speakerFranklin Roosevelt was a master at
- speakerit. Abraham Lincoln.
- speakerBut, you know, we're
- speakernot here talking about management by
- speakerobjectives.
- speakerWe're not here talking about
- speakerpurposes.
- speakerWe're not anything like that.
- speakerAnd
- speakerI suppose any.
- speakerThe thing that has kept me
- speakeralive
- speakerin these
- speakermany years of
- speakerdifficult,
- speakerpainful, controversial
- speakerstruggle in the Church and Society
- speakerarena in the Church
- speakeris is that
- speakeris that understanding of of
- speakerthe biblical vision
- speakerthat was planted in
- speakerme, not only in that
- speakerbeautiful Canadian Baptist preaching
- speakerback in that fundamentalist Southern
- speakerBaptist Church, but by Davie
- speakerNapier and particularly
- speakerDavie others in
- speakerthat understanding of the meaning of
- speakerthe biblical revelation.
- speakerYou can't believe that
- speakerit is possible
- speakerfor us to move toward a
- speakertime when leopards and
- speakerlions and lambs and
- speakerlie down together in oxen eat straw
- speakerand they weren't hurt nor destroy
- speakerthe desert blossoms like a rose
- speakerthat's promised.
- speakerAnd I think the
- speakerfreshness of that promise and
- speakerthat vision is a source
- speakerof enormous power
- speakerand energy for people
- speakerwho who will believe
- speakertruly that it is possible.
- speakerIt is not empty poetry.
- speakerIt is not idle speculation.
- speakerIt is not promises for some
- speakerdispensation beyond our present
- speakerlife.
- speakerWhat is meant to be
- speakerthe intended way
- speakerthe creation functions
- speakerby the power that made it and
- speakersustains it.
- speakerSo I'd add to Marty's
- speakerTrinity a little fourth
- speakerheretical point about vision.
- speakerI was wondering maybe ask
- speakeryou one more question and
- speakerthen maybe move on into
- speakerinto career.
- speakerIt seems to me, just from
- speakerlistening to you and part of what
- speakeryou are describing, I understand.
- speakerI don't understand.
- speakerI mean, I'm part of that, but
- speakernot not quite the same phase.
- speakerBut but it seems to me that
- speakerthat a great deal of what later
- speakerwould develop people like yourself
- speakerand others who would be involved
- speakerin social action programs
- speakerin the church, that
- speakerthat you did have a
- speakerfairly clearly defined
- speakertheological context
- speakerand you had some models,
- speakeryou had some some
- speakerhighly respected articulate
- speakermodels. And and although
- speakerthere were various
- speakerdiffering interpretations and
- speakeryet you had this pretty
- speakerclear theological context out
- speakerabout which you can, you
- speakerknow, you you brought parts of it
- speakerand you also developed it that that
- speakerit seems to me that that was
- speakerone of the one of the differences
- speakerbetween now and
- speakerthen is that there's no
- speakersuch thing
- speakeras a theological context
- speakerin the same way which
- speakerwhich I hear, you know, you
- speakerarticulate not that there isn't some
- speakertheological content, but it's not
- speakerthe same same reality
- speakeras is what you
- speakerhave at a very formative period
- speakerof your life.
- speakerYeah, I think that's right.
- speakerThat it is.
- speakerIt is lacking.
- speakerI've never been terribly
- speakerkeen on the
- speakerpractice of dismissing children
- speakerfrom the worship service so they
- speakercould go to Sunday school during the
- speakertime the preaching takes place,
- speakerbecause in a way that transcends
- speakerintellectual understanding.
- speakerThe hearings Sunday after
- speakerSunday of
- speakerthe reading of Scripture,
- speakerthe proclamation of that
- speakerword and that Southern Baptist
- speakerChurch, I believe,
- speakerwas kind of the mother's milk of my
- speakersense of vision.
- speakerI didn't know it at the time.
- speakerI resented it.
- speakerI fidgeted and fussed and no
- speakerone and argued about going to church
- speakerand everything else
- speakerbut
- speakerthat that.
- speakerThe cadences and
- speakerlanguage of
- speakerthat scriptural understanding and
- speakervision,
- speakeryou know, narrowly interpreted often
- speakerby the by the preacher,
- speakerbut became a part of
- speakerthe of the of the
- speakeraesthetic and psychological
- speakerlandscape of what my
- speakergrasp of all the world.
- speakerAnd so when I later came to
- speakera place where
- speakerI could understand in
- speakerdepth something of its
- speakerpower that was there
- speakeralready to
- speakerbe reconfigured
- speakerin its meaning.