Conversations with Metz Rollins and Will Campbell, Tape 1, Part 1.

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Dear God our Father be with us now as we gather for
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study and to
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reflect and to try
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to see into the past and
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to have some idea about the future.
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May your blessing be upon us and lift us up, in the
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name Christ, we pray, amen.
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As indicated last evening,
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that, or while
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we would try to provide a kind of
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historical overview
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background and
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in talking about the civil rights
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movement, as I was
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thinking when I
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was a young person in
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it, I assumed that civil rights
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movement started when
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I got involved in the middle
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fifties.
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But the civil rights movement has
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been around for a long time,
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though it didn't make a lot of
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noise. The NAACP,
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that's the National Association
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for the Advancement of Colored
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People, the late
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Adam Clayton Powell used to be said
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it stood for the National
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Association for the Advancement
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of Certain People.
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But be that as it
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may.
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Excuse there's an urgent phone call for.
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Okay.
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Yeah, that's okay.
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And then, of course, there was the
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Urban League and like.
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And then there were suits, you know.
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When you say early, what time?
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Well, when I'm talking pre 50 before
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the fifties,
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I think that you would have to say
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that the 1954
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Supreme Court decision
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on school desegregation was what
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sort of like jogged
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people and put a pin
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in it. But there had been freedom
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rides, for instance, in 1948.
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There were people who came down and
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got arrested in North Carolina and
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the like, but it didn't make a
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ripple because nobody picked
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up on it.
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And they went on back to New York.
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That was part CORE and
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that was a part of A.
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Philip Randolph.
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But keep in mind that the
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old man, A.
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Philip Randolph, in 1941
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threatened the late
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President Roosevelt with a march
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on Washington, and out of it came
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the fair employment
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practice, pronunciation.
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There's a number for it.
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I don't remember that Roosevelt
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wrote that was supposed to guarantee
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equal job opportunity during
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World War One.
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So you had that.
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And as I said, there had been
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the suit from
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one of the few Black representatives
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at that time in 1948
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that pushed for the opening of
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access on the trains.
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But it didn't have much impact
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because I remember coming down to
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California in 1949
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as a student.
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I rode the train from Charlotte to
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Los Angeles, and when I got
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ready to go in and eat in the dining
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room, I was escorted to
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a very nice table.
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And then there was a curtain drawn
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around me.
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So but
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that was part of it.
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Then, as I said 54,
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civil rights.
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I mean, the
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Supreme Court decision
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and there were those of us in the
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Black community who were naive
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enough to believe that
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the white community and the people
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who were in power would do the right
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thing. And you discovered right away
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that wasn't going to be so.
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My home state, Virginia, started
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what they called massive resistance.
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The current governor, now in a
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wheelchair of Alabama,
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you know, later on stood in the door
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and the like.
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So there was
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a step, a fight
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at every step of the way.
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So civil rights has also been
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equivocation with fight to
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have to fight because nothing
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in terms of civil rights has come
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voluntarily, or freely
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even from the best intention.
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Okay.
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So the thing that really woke up the
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country was 1955
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when the Montgomery bus
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boycott occurred,
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Rosa Parks, a seamstress,
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had decided that she had enough and
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she didn't get up off the bus.
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And that occurred in
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Montgomery, Martin Luther
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King, whom nobody had ever heard of
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before.
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And because he had been in
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Montgomery the least,
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and therefore among the Black
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preachers, had not already been
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bought off by 10%
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off for an automobile or 10%
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off for furniture and the like.
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But there was a man named Dickson,
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was
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head of the NAACP, and a Sleeping
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Car Porter,
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who really was the drive behind
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what took place in Montgomery.
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Martin was elected
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as president of the
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Montgomery Improvement Association
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primarily because he had only
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been in town for a little while.
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He was clean and he was neat.
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When I say neat and clean, it meant
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that he was not involved,
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that nobody had anything
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on him in terms
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of owing anything, or that he
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hadn't bought an automobile where
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he'd been given the usual
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10% off because he was a preacher.
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So that was the setting.
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Now, the secret
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of what happened in Montgomery
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was that
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the rank and file ordinary
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Black folks supported it
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because one of the experiences
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that was learned by all
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of us was that if the ordinary
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people in the street then
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supported you can have all the
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oratory, you could have all the
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meetings and all like that.
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And so they had a carpool and
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there was if you saw the film
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From Montgomery
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to Memphis, you saw people
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walking and Black
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preachers were accused of making
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little old Black ladies
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have to suffer because they were
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walking.
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Because keep in mind, public
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transportation in the south,
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in Montgomery and in Tallahassee
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where I'm talking about was
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primarily used by
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Black folks, primarily
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Black folks who were domestics.
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And we had to get out to white
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folks' kitchens and things like
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that.
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And the success of it was was
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because they stayed off
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the buses.
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And so eventually
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in Montgomery, of course,
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they would not accept the fact, and
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they did all kinds of things.
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And finally they go all the way to
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the Supreme Court for
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them to rule that
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the segregation laws that determined
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public transportation were
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wrong and invalid.
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In Tallahassee, within
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that same period, I was involved
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with the bus boycott and
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we had one too that started on May
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1956. And all they had, it
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was a it was a simple incident.
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Two girls from the local Black
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college, Florida A&M University,
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had gone downtown
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and what was called a long seat.
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You know, the two long seats on the
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front, the bus had been filled
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from the back up and
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the only seats available was on
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the right and they sat down.
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The bus driver said, you got to get
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up because there was one white
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person on the bus who
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needed a seat and they said no.
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And so the guy rolled them right
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on up to the police station
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and they were arrested and then
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turned over to the college
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authorities.
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I read about that on a Sunday
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morning when I picked up
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the morning's paper.
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It said two
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front seat riding Negroes
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arrested here.
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That was the mentality
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of 1956.
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And when I read it, I said could
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be, maybe, hopefully
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we'll have another Montgomery.
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And I went on and did the usual
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thing, went to church, preached, and
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the like, and
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nothing happened.
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But these girls were off
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campus students and their addresses
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had been given in that
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article.
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The next morning I got a phone call
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from a student who told me, said,
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Come on up to the
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main auditorium.
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Said something's going on that you
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may be interested in.
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What had happened was that the night
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before, somebody, nobody knows,
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burned a cross in front of
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these girls' home where they
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were staying, and they had gotten
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frightened to come on the campus.
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And then kids at around four
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or five o'clock Monday morning AM
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got the mimeograph machine going.
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And so here were 3000
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students. The fortunate thing, president
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of the college was out of town
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and all like that.
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This was the students and it was a
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very simple thing.
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You know, again,
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the students didn't have any
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problem. They got up and said
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one of our two of our students
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have been insulted.
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And the guy made a statement, said
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we are going to we've got to do
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and support the same things going
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down in Montgomery.
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Where did these students make this presentation?
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This was to students.
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This was this was 3000
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almost the whole student body at
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Florida A&M was there
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in the auditorium.
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And after they made the statement,
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they sang the alma mater
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got up and walked out.
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And again,
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you know that I'm a believer
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in Providence and
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the Frenchtown bus,
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which came because Florida
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A&M was on one side
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and there was a bus that went
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between the two Black communities
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and it came right through there
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and they stopped it.
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They asked Black folks to get off
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and the whole afternoon
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and by five or six o'clock, the
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word had spread.
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To make one more insight
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into this and then I'll let it go,
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the Black clergy that is
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us preachers, had a meeting.
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It was Monday and went
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over and I walked out of the meeting
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at least three or four times because
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they were debating whether they
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would support the
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student action.
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And I had gotten up twice and said
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how the hell can you not support
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student action? This already
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happened.
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And we argued back and forth and
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the like.
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To make a long story short, that
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evening there was a mass meeting,
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overflow crowd,
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Life Magazine, New York
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Times, everybody was down there.
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We had Time Magazine,
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Newsweek within the next week.
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And so we carried on a bus boycott.
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We organized a carpool.
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Later on, we were arrested for
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operating a for hire system
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without a license.
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That's what the city fathers
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dreamed up.
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And I was among those
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arrested.
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And I'll tell a personal story here,
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because this this is part
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personal history.
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I was sitting for dinner.
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It was a Wednesday evening, and we
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were supposed to have a mass
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meeting.
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The doorbell rang and I got up.
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My wife was pregnant because she was
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expecting our second child.
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And I went to the door and it was a
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policeman.
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And so he says, I got a
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warrant for Rollins.
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I said, Well, I'm him.
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So he says, Are you going to come on
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down peaceful?
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I said, Certainly.
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So I told my wife, I said, okay,
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I'll see you later.
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So he says, Well, so you
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can take your car or you can ride
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with me. So I said I'm gonna ride
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with you I said. At city expense.
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I got in and I hopped in the front
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seat right beside him.
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So we talked, and
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he was determined to impress
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upon me that all it was
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was just a job.
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And he didn't know nobody.
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And that he didn't understand what
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was going on.
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That he'd just been given my name.
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And so he'd come out and I would not
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to feel bad about him.
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And I said, No, I don't have any
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feelings toward you.
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Well, we got down and
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they were bringing them in.
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There were nine of us to would be
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arrested. We represented the board
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of the Inter-Civic
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Council, which was the
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name for the group that was
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sponsoring the bus boycott.
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I had an elder fortunately who was
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a doctor, and
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so he put up $500 cash
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for my bond and I was released.
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But the one person that was missing
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was the president of the group C.
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K. Steele.
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So we went to the mass meeting and
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that evening the church was filled
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and everybody heard about it.
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Later on, Steele came in
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from a trip and he got into the
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church because we were at
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his church and his manse
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was right next door.
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And after a while, somebody came in.
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A policeman said,
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Will we please ask
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Reverend Steele to come out?
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They didn't want to come into the
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church. Here again, you're talking
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about the southern mentality,
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policemen, racists
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and the like, but at the same time
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having reservations about coming
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into a church and
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arresting the pastor because they
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didn't know what would happen.
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And so Steele took his good time
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and he spoke to the audience and
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everything. In about ten or 15
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minutes he walked on out and they
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took him down. And he was back
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within about 20 minutes.
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Well, they were told we were crazy.
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The police chief of
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the town was very interesting.
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His name was chief Stoutamire.
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He had been a county sheriff
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for 30 some odd years,
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owned a lot of property, run
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a lot of Black folks in jail.
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And still in the midst of all
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this on Saturday morning,
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could be found in the Black
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community selling eggs, personally.
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He had his little basket walking
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around with eggs that had come off
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his farm, selling them to Black
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folks. They were buying eggs.
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Yes, sir. How are you doing.
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He knew them all
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by face.
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And when he called us into his
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office, he said the preachers
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are responsible for
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what's going on.
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And he swung around his chair and
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there was a Black woman making her
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way down South
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Adams Street walking by herself.
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You see now that nigger
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woman wouldn't have been walking
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if you preachers hadn't been.
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That's what I'm saying.
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That's the kind of mentality that
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we had to deal with in terms
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of, now he was a deacon
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in the First Baptist Church,
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and the First Baptist Church
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already occupied a block
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and in 1955
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called itself the Church of the
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Mid-century.
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And he even had the nerve enough to
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say, well, that his preacher, that
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his children and his grandchildren
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would be paying for all of that
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stuff later on, simply
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because the preachers, so at least
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he integrated us and
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included us in the fact that
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preachers were a problem some
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time.
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But one other thing and then
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I'll let that go.
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We asked for a meeting with the
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white clergy
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and the president of the White
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Ministers Alliance was the pastor
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of First Baptist Church.
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And we did have a meeting.
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And he said to us, he said, What you
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all are involved in is a worldly
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affair.
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We can't participate in worldly
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affairs.
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But at the same time, every
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time there was a debate about
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whether a county would go wet or dry
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within 100 miles,
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you would read in the paper that the
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deacons of First Baptist Church
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had released their pastor so
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that he could go down and preach
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about the evils of alcohol
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and the like.
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So I hold that in abeyance.
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And for those of you who
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that is always been the irony
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of ironies
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that, and
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I say white, I don't have it.
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It is the only way to describe
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it. The white folks keep talking
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about spiritual things.
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We Black folks have been accused of
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being otherworldly.
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You know, we sing a song about
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you can have the world, but give me
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Jesus.
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But the irony of it all
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is the white
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folks have been singing the song in
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reverse. They have been
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always able to hang on
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to the world.
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And they said, Well, we got Jesus,
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too. Well when Black folks come
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along and assert themselves, we've
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been accused of being
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agitators and
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communists.
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And the irony about
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the involvement in in
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Tallahassee that
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we will call
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most of the Black clergy were
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involved in it had only been in
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town, four or five years
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because I'd been in Tallahassee
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from 53 to 55.
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And so there was an editorial in a
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local paper, calling upon
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the Black community to reject
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this new leadership and
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accept the stayed responsible
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leadership that had been there all
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this time. That meant the.
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Where did you come from?
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Oh, I came from Charlotte.
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I was serving in what was then the
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Southern Church, by the way.
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I was a UP.
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I'm a third generation Presbyterian
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minister. That surprises a lot of
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folks.
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But my father, my grandfather,
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and in 50, even
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though I had finished seminary,
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there was nothing for me.
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I couldn't find a church.
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So I had taught at Johnson C.
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Smith for three years.
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And when the Southern Church,
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the one that we just united with,
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dangled this opportunity to go down
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into Florida and organize, call
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it a Black church.
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That's another story, too, and I
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won't go into that one
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in the sense that our church
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got started
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and I was involved in it,
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and the church that
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we were related to was First
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Presbyterian Church of Downtown
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Tallahassee, had
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a big historic sign saying that
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the original slave gallery
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was there in their church, etc.
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When I had come to Tallahassee, I
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had been wined
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and dined all like that.
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But the power structure
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in Tallahassee, keep
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in mind that was a state government.
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That was state capitol.
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LeRoy Collins had made the front
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page of Time Magazine
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proclaiming a new day
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in Florida.
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And when we hit the page
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with that, I was accused
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of
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several things.
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One, I was told quite bluntly by the
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elders of First Presbyterian Church
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that I knew what the situation
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was in Tallahassee and they couldn't
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understand why.
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The other was that the
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Southern Church believed in
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the same thing, but they were going
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to do it through Christian education
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and through all those things, and
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that we were using the worldly power
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structure by going out, agitating
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and stirring up and marching and the
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like. So that was it.
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So they cut
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me off
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and I brought my
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congregation in Trinity Presbyterian
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Church back into the Mother
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Church, the United Presbyterian
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Church.
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And we were released on the floor
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of Presbytery up in Auburn,
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Alabama, because
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we were a part of a geographical
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absurdity.
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Central Alabama Presbytery was
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a Black presbytery that included
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churches from Mississippi
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and down into
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Northwest Florida,
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including me.
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I used to go to Presbytery.
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I used to go to Montgomery,
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Tuscaloosa, you know,
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drive three or four. So it was a
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geographical absurdity, but
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it was a racist situation.
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But the brothers and sisters, when
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they heard my story, they released
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us.
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There was no debate.
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We made a request, they honored it,
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and we went in to the
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Church into the United Presbyterian
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Church, only to discover
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that our church wasn't ready for us
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yet either, because the Atlantic
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Synod, which was one
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of the original Black synods and it
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included South Carolina, Georgia
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and Florida with churches that run
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all the way down to Key West,
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Florida.
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There was a Black church there in Key West. So then
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we went from the frying pan
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into the fire.
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And I was told when I went in, he
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said, Now, Metz, you.
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This was a friend of mine,
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classmate, chairman of National Missions.
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He says, You can't expect to make
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the same salary
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that the others are making because
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after all, you went off
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and left us.
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And at that time, 56, I
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was making the grand, great, and
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masterful sum of $2600
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a year for a place to stay.
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And keep in mind, that was Black
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salary.
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Equalization of salary in this
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church of ours is only occurred
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in the last five
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or ten years.
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If it's really equal.
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Well do you think that white sellers were that much more exciting the
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Board of National Missions.
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Well, yes.
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3600.
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Well, it was a lot better, but it
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was more it was just a question of
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time and also
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what it is now.
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I went back for the 25th anniversary
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of that church, Trinity Church.
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And because they are now integrated
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fully, a part of the Synod of
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Florida and white pastors
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don't leave the cold climes of the
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North to go down and
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be pastors in Florida for peanuts.
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So even though there were still
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a mission aided church,
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what they were offering a salary in
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1981 was more than what I was
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making in the Bronx because
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they were getting the minimum
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that it takes to get a pastor
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to go to Orlando
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or Miami or Fort Lauderdale
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if he's gonna start a new church or
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what have you, you know,
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so and you know, you talk
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and the basic salary was 23,
speaker
$24,000.
speaker
But that's a different piece of
speaker
the whole thing.
speaker
Quietly, but and very quickly.
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Oh, what else was
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going on in Tallahassee,
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Montgomery.
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And you recall in Little Rock,
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the desegregation of Central
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High School in Little Rock
speaker
1957, I didn't get involved
speaker
in that until I left and went to
speaker
Nashville in 58.
speaker
But who was president at that
speaker
time? Who remembers who was
speaker
President?
speaker
Eisenhower.
speaker
Eisenhower, who had been a
speaker
baptized here
speaker
in Kansas as
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a what? Brethren in the Water
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or something like that.
speaker
And because of
speaker
Edward R.
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Elson, who was then the pastor
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of the National Presbyterian
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Church, and would have been Ike's
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personal chaplain over there in
speaker
Paris made it,
speaker
and then all of a sudden, to be
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a Presbyterian was a status symbol
speaker
because the president of the United
speaker
States was a Presbyterian.
speaker
But this same status
speaker
symbol president, latecomer
speaker
Presbyterian, Dwight David
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Eisenhower was
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the same one who there
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that wasn't anything to do.
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Finally, out of desperation, he sent
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troops down in 1957.
speaker
Enough said about that.
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Eventually the problem
speaker
resolved.
speaker
I was in there
speaker
with a man who was a pastor
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of a little Black congregation
speaker
in Little Rock.
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I remember being at a meeting in
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Texarkana, Arkansas,
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on the border where
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we come in by night,
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where we met behind closed
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doors and close windows, white
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and Black, but fearful
speaker
because this was a time
speaker
of tension in regards
speaker
to the whole situation there.
speaker
But Eisenhower so far as being
speaker
president and having any impact
speaker
because.
speaker
Essentially, at least my estimation
speaker
of it was, that he was
speaker
a classic example
speaker
of the kind of piety,
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religiosity,
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you know, they have prayer
speaker
breakfasts along the Potomac
speaker
and all the usual things
speaker
and Elson was there
speaker
preaching. And Elson, the most
speaker
famous books,
speaker
was a group of sermons called From
speaker
the Ramparts We Watch.
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Well, you can question
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me on my judgments about folks later
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on.
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Okay.
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The next phase was 1959.
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I was in Nashville.
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That's where I met Will Campbell.
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And I had met
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Glenn Smiley, a Methodist from
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the Fellowship of Reconciliation,
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while I was in Florida.
speaker
And he was the one that brought
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material.
speaker
And all of us were introduced
speaker
to the concept of nonviolence.
speaker
And we read André Trocmé
speaker
and a lot of the traditional
speaker
pacifists.
speaker
And so that was what was informing
speaker
a great deal of that.
speaker
King had been to
speaker
India.
speaker
But he also read some of the same
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thing. James Lawson I don't know
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who's from California.
speaker
Jim Lawson was a,
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a Methodist.
speaker
His name comes to forth
speaker
as Jim Lawson was enrolled at
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Vanderbilt Seminary.
speaker
And when the sit in started
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in Nashville,
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the local papers had a field
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day and it was the conservative
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afternoon paper.
speaker
And Lawson was
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headlined.
speaker
And they
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because he had been a C.O.,
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he had been, you know, he had not go
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into the Army and
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he had gone to India and worked
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under the Methodist board for one
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year.
speaker
And so they had it all figured out
speaker
that Lawson had been sent, going
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to India specifically
speaker
for the task of learning about this
speaker
so he can come back to Nashville
speaker
and raise all this hell.
speaker
So they kicked him out of Vanderbilt
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Seminary.
speaker
And it was irony of ironies that
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at the time that they kicked Lawson
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out,
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there was a convocation
speaker
being held at the Seminary
speaker
and you know Boston
speaker
in the sister Methodist
speaker
school, Boston College,
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or is it Boston University?
speaker
I never can make, get the two, one's
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Catholic, one's Methodist.
speaker
But anyhow, Harold DeWolf,
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who was a pacifist,
speaker
came down and made a speech there,
speaker
and he had already left Boston
speaker
honored with the fact
speaker
that Boston would be delighted
speaker
to receive the
speaker
Mr. James Lawson and he could
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finish his last year of seminary.
speaker
And that was part of
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some of the other things that took
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place.
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But in Nashville,
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we had been preparing for
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the sit ins by nonviolent
speaker
practice. We had started it in 59.
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We had done some drama.
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CBS had put us on a half
speaker
an hour program that had gone across
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the country.
speaker
But the irony of ironies was that on
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February 1st, 1964,
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Black youngsters from
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A&T College, Greensboro,
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on their own went down and sat in,
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and that is listed as the official
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date of the sit-in movement.
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And of course, within when
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we heard about what had happened
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there, by two
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by three days later in Nashville,
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we had upwards to 1000
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to 1500 students who had been
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arrested and put in jail because
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we hit the streets
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in big numbers.
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And if you remember, for those
speaker
who do remember snowballed
speaker
all over the South, everywhere
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there were students and wherever
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there was a Black college or
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wherever they went out there,
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they sat in at places like
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Woolworth's, Kress
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and the like.
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Now, it's very interesting.
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What was the resistance after
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the original sit-ins or what
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occurred?
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The man of Woolworth's took off the,
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took the the seat
speaker
part of the counters off.
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And so you went in and
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they all the seats, what
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do you call the spin around seats?
speaker
They were taken off, the stools
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and then
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some of them closed up the
speaker
restaurant.
speaker
You go in and you would see there
speaker
were pillows and
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household goods that was sitting a
speaker
lot across the lunch.
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Then the irony was there
speaker
was one of those stand up places
speaker
across the street
speaker
where you would find the
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manager of the store,
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students who had been out
speaker
in front and anybody
speaker
else standing because
speaker
you remember Harry Golden,
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what you call vertical integration.
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There never seemed to be any problem
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as long
speaker
as we were in lines,
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Black folks and white folks could go
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into the banks, stand in the same
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line.
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Black folks where there where those
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places where they where they sold
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liquor.
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Charlotte and Nashville were dry
speaker
but those places where they had
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package stores.
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You could see lines of folks, and as
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long as they were standing up.
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You could almost be the most
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integrated thing in the world.
speaker
So they had some
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juice stands and things like that.
speaker
And that was one of the ironies, as
speaker
long as, and Harry Golden, the
speaker
Jewish writer used to talk
speaker
about the difference between
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vertical and horizontal
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integration. And his idea was
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take out all the seats,
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let everybody stand,
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take out all the chairs in the
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churches. Let everybody stand.
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You wouldn't have any problem you
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see. That was the
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that was it. So that was one of the
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phenomena that was one of the
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interesting,
speaker
curious things that took place
speaker
during that time that all
speaker
across the South, the immediate
speaker
response was to take
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the stools out
speaker
and to close up in some case,
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or simply to have
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the practice of vertical.
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As long as nobody sat down,
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there was no problem.
speaker
You could walk and stand and pick up
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orange juice, hamburger, what
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have it. It presented no problem.
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Okay, moving very quickly.
speaker
By Easter of 1960,
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the students met all over
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from all over the country.
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They met in Raleigh,
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North Carolina.
speaker
King was there.
speaker
And here begins the creation
speaker
of the Student Nonviolent
speaker
Coordinating Committee
speaker
was organized in Easter,
speaker
Easter time, 1960
speaker
in Raleigh.
speaker
And later on we referred
speaker
to it SNCC, but just so you
speaker
could get it.
speaker
King was there. Martin was there.
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He spoke and out of
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it was this
speaker
organization, which was to
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coordinate and to carry
speaker
on the continued activities, because
speaker
by this time, the only victory
speaker
that no victories had been
speaker
won.
speaker
But you'd had demonstrations from
speaker
February through
speaker
Easter.
speaker
Okay.
speaker
The first victory, believe it or
speaker
not, goes for
speaker
credit in Nashville, Tennessee,
speaker
where I was, where Will Campbell was
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that the powers that be
speaker
decided that
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since they weren't making any money,
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and since white folks
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were staying out of downtown and
speaker
since, as one guy
speaker
said, and the niggers were raising
speaker
hell, we just well give in.
speaker
So you had the desegregation of
speaker
Woolworth's, Kress
speaker
and these little two by four
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second rate places.
speaker
But they became symbolic
speaker
of the initial victory.
speaker
And then later on, cities and cities
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went on.
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I went down to
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at that time I was traveling and
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I went to San Antonio, Texas,
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and there it had been done by
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committee.
speaker
Catholic bishop and other powers
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that be
speaker
had desegregated.
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And I was at Trinity College
speaker
as a part of a Synod of Texas
speaker
event.
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And later on during the week, four
speaker
of us went out
speaker
to test it.
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I was the only Black.
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There were two white women and
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another man.
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And so we went into this place.
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We sat down
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and after a while
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the woman came in and
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she says, One of you
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is going to have to move.
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So we said, Well, we read
speaker
desegregation had taken place.
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He said, Yes,
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and he's free and he can eat
speaker
and the like, but we're just not
speaker
ready for
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mixing.
speaker
You see the difference.
speaker
Desegregation,
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integration and mixing,
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those are in the mind.
speaker
Two different words.
speaker
Yes.
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Whites, the women white or Anglos.
speaker
They were Anglos and
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whites. They were they were they
speaker
were on the staff.
speaker
In 1960 you have any idea what would have happened then?
speaker
Maybe no problem. But the problem
speaker
was simply it was the business of
speaker
the of the presence
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of a Black male and
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white women.
speaker
That was that was it.
speaker
That's still a problem.
speaker
If you realize if you look across
speaker
the country, that kind of thing
speaker
still occurs, you don't get
speaker
any overt but it
speaker
is still seen and if
speaker
you, there are some stories and some
speaker
articles have been done on, you
speaker
know, interracial couples and etc.,
speaker
and it's still still a problem.
speaker
And so, as I said, that was very it
speaker
was it was a humorous thing because,
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as I said,
speaker
I thought I was being moved because
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I was wearing shorts
speaker
and like that, but it had nothing to
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do with that.
speaker
So we we left, but
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that's the way it was.
speaker
Now, the changes took place,
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keep in mind also so that nobody
speaker
who lives in the North would ever be
speaker
off the hook.
speaker
There were demonstrations and
speaker
sit-ins, sympathetic ones and the
speaker
like.
speaker
And those of us who travel
speaker
in southern Illinois, southern
speaker
Indiana, southern Ohio.
speaker
I can tell you personally
speaker
that that felt just as rabid
speaker
as Mississippi, Alabama
speaker
and the like.
speaker
West Virginia, for instance, which
speaker
never had segregation on public
speaker
transportation, had
speaker
de facto segregation
speaker
across the board all over.
speaker
Washington, D.C.
speaker
The only thing that you could do was
speaker
ride public transportation
speaker
and access to the parks.
speaker
Up until the sixties,
speaker
they still had the Howard Theatre
speaker
and Black theaters.
speaker
Downtown
speaker
Washington, D.C.
speaker
The nation's capital
speaker
was still a bastion of segregation.
speaker
A Black men
speaker
who worked for the railroad.
speaker
Salt Lake City
speaker
opened after 1964
speaker
and 65 because
speaker
in the land of the Mormons
speaker
and the great saints of that state
speaker
segregation and in terms of their
speaker
evaluation of who people are,
speaker
and I, for the life of me, have
speaker
never figured out why any Black
speaker
wanted to be a member of the
speaker
Mormon Church.
speaker
But I guess we want to integrate
speaker
everything.
speaker
Okay, so
speaker
that was the continuation SNCC
speaker
the Student Nonviolent Coordinating
speaker
Committee was interracial
speaker
and it started out interracial
speaker
because at that time you had a
speaker
phenomenon where you had white
speaker
students who were willing to take
speaker
off a year or two years from their
speaker
college who came down.
speaker
The the mindset in
speaker
60, 61 was
speaker
awful naive.
speaker
That's a theological statement.
speaker
May not be the best of theological
speaker
statements, but most
speaker
of us believed
speaker
that, for instance, when we had the
speaker
sit-ins, we
speaker
had students put on shirts
speaker
and ties and clean and nobody
speaker
could participate in
speaker
a demonstration that had jeans
speaker
and things like that
speaker
because we assumed that
speaker
the white men, you know, that they
speaker
you know, you had heard all this
speaker
crap about people would tell you,
speaker
well, if all of them were like you,
speaker
we'd be happy to serve you.
speaker
If all of them were like you, we'd
speaker
be happy to let them
speaker
sit beside, you know, that was the
speaker
usual B.S.
speaker
So we went along with it.
speaker
And the early days all across
speaker
every demonstration and every
speaker
effort.
speaker
When we finally desegregated
speaker
Nashville, we selected people
speaker
to go out and eat.
speaker
We said always be sure to put on a
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tie, always be sure put on a coat.
speaker
And even today and I have to throw
speaker
this plug in, my wife
speaker
tells me, you know when we go out,
speaker
be sure to put on a coat and tie.
speaker
And I said, dammit, we'll go
speaker
to the best place.
speaker
And I was at a place last year, a
speaker
French restaurant.
speaker
And the latest thing is to have
speaker
the white pants and
speaker
sport coat. And I looked at this
speaker
turkey, he had on tennis shoes, but
speaker
no damn socks.
speaker
And I told my wife, I see.
speaker
I said, You see exactly where I'm
speaker
going,
speaker
here we work this hard.
speaker
And most of the places I go into
speaker
most of the places I go, I don't
speaker
even worry about it anymore.
speaker
If I'd just make the exceptions,
speaker
acceptance that integration
speaker
is going to mean that you're going
speaker
to be associated with a lot of
speaker
crummy people, that's not the only
speaker
way to put it.
speaker
You know, that was a classic story
speaker
about a place in Atlanta,
speaker
a tea room that was finally
speaker
desegregated.
speaker
And the suggestion was made that
speaker
somebody, when they went in
speaker
after he'd been served or seen
speaker
them served and eaten.
speaker
That in the middle of it all.
speaker
He was suddenly stand up and
speaker
and just pound his breast
speaker
and said, Oh, God, was it worth
speaker
it? Oh, God, was it worth
speaker
it? After all the demonstrations
speaker
and the arrests and because the food
speaker
wasn't worth anything.
speaker
Jesus. You know, when I first ate a
speaker
hamburger outside
speaker
of a Black greasy spoon, and to go
speaker
downtown, paid
speaker
for the.
speaker
You know, it was.
speaker
It wasn't. It took a little bit of
speaker
transition.
speaker
You were paying more and eating less
speaker
and paying more and
speaker
then enjoying it less.
speaker
Well, that's another thing, y'all
speaker
can talk about that.
speaker
Okay.
speaker
The next big thing that occurred
speaker
and again, we're just trying to put
speaker
it in a little bit, was 1961
speaker
the Freedom Rides, CORE,
speaker
Congress of Racial Equality,
speaker
organized freedom rides,
speaker
and they headed south
speaker
on the buses.
speaker
And I don't know where you were.
speaker
And some of you weren't born maybe,
speaker
but Mother's Day, 1961,
speaker
all across the news showed the
speaker
burning bus, Trailways bus, in
speaker
Anniston, Alabama,
speaker
as where the crowd, the mob, had caught
speaker
with the bus and they burned it.
speaker
You remember seeing pictures of it.
speaker
And
speaker
they made it on to Montgomery.
speaker
We came in to Montgomery and I came
speaker
down.
speaker
We had a mass meeting on a Sunday
speaker
about a week later,
speaker
because they had been beaten in
speaker
Montgomery on Saturday.
speaker
And one thing I'll say about the
speaker
mobs, they didn't make any
speaker
distinction. They beat up white and
speaker
Black alike. In fact, the anger
speaker
of white southern mobs was more
speaker
directed toward whites because
speaker
they saw them as traitors.
speaker
And you remember there was a fellow
speaker
from Milwaukee,
speaker
James Zwerg. I don't know where he is.
speaker
There was a picture of him standing
speaker
there and the Montgomery bus bus
speaker
station, teeth
speaker
out, blood coming down off his
speaker
face. The whole thing was part of
speaker
it. It along with John Lewis
speaker
and the like.
speaker
But that was it.
speaker
So that we tried
speaker
to regroup forces.
speaker
And that Sunday evening we were at
speaker
First Baptist Church in Montgomery.
speaker
And by that time, Kennedy,
speaker
the late Kennedy,
speaker
President Kennedy had sent
speaker
marshals in
speaker
because the promise had been that
speaker
there would be the National Guard,
speaker
which is Alabama.
speaker
And the upshot of it was
speaker
that the marshals had been out to
speaker
the Montgomery Air Force Base
speaker
and they had gotten sort of lax.
speaker
At about nine or ten o'clock, the
speaker
church was attacked and they stood
speaker
like the long thin gray line,
speaker
heaving back tear gas
speaker
that they had thrown and the
speaker
like. And finally,
speaker
about 11 or 12 o'clock after
speaker
they kept us from
speaker
being literally
speaker
attacked by the mob, they'd gotten
speaker
to the steps of the church.
speaker
The governor called out the National
speaker
Guard.
speaker
And when we saw them march up the
speaker
street, we said, well, here comes
speaker
the Ku Klux Klan dressed in the
speaker
khaki uniforms
speaker
that was about the size of it, we
speaker
got out of the church about three AM
speaker
the next morning.
speaker
But we had been on the phone.
speaker
Kennedy was rich
speaker
and conservative.
speaker
He did not come into office
speaker
on any promise
speaker
of anything.
speaker
I'm talking about the late President
speaker
Kennedy,
speaker
his brother, the attorney
speaker
general. And we called him
speaker
on the phone that night
speaker
was either naive or
speaker
insensitive because
speaker
the later thing that he made
speaker
just before his assassination
speaker
when he ran for president
speaker
were a whole lot different from the
speaker
Kennedy of 1961.
speaker
And they moved slowly and
speaker
they did not have any.
speaker
They told us to cool it.
speaker
I came to a meeting in New York
speaker
about two weeks after this
speaker
particular incident.
speaker
Burke Marshall, now a lawyer,
speaker
a professor of law at
speaker
Yale, was there,
speaker
and the official word from
speaker
Washington was to cool it.
speaker
We'll see if we can't work this out.
speaker
So the upshot of it was that, I'm
speaker
sorry I saw your hand.
speaker
No just stretching.
speaker
Okay.
speaker
No I had my hand up.
speaker
Okay, good. Interrupt any time you
speaker
want to.
speaker
Just to digress
speaker
for a second, but Bobby Kennedy.
speaker
Or shall we say, roll, non-roll.
speaker
Taped off?
speaker
No,
speaker
Bobby Kennedy.
speaker
You know, as I said,
speaker
I think both he and his brother grew
speaker
into it. I think if the President
speaker
had not been assassinated.
speaker
You know, it may have been a whole
speaker
different thing,
speaker
but they were naive.
speaker
That was all Bobby Kennedy
speaker
at the Virginia
speaker
Law School and
speaker
the like.
speaker
You know, he was under a lot of
speaker
pressure because he got that
speaker
job
speaker
as the attorney general, everybody
speaker
said because his brother
speaker
was president.
speaker
He had no legal or legal
speaker
background and the like.
speaker
And as I said, I reserve judgment
speaker
on him. I just know what he did
speaker
do in that particular crisis.
speaker
I was shocked
speaker
and hurt when I heard about his
speaker
assassination.
speaker
Because I had worked on, and
speaker
I remember at Martin's
speaker
funeral.
speaker
King had been, when I was in
speaker
Atlanta, he
speaker
there were all kinds of folks.
speaker
Nixon was there.
speaker
People, you know, I can't believe,
speaker
you know, folks
speaker
because the man the President or whatever the hell Nixon was at the time.
speaker
They were shaking hands, and taking
speaker
pictures as he came upon the church.
speaker
Thing
speaker
about Bobby Kennedy, he had a
speaker
sense of what was taking
speaker
place.
speaker
And marched along quietly he acknowledged people's presence did not stop
speaker
and turn it into a field day for
speaker
himself.
speaker
Now J. Edgar Hoover.
speaker
He was a Presbyterian.
speaker
He taught Sunday school for forty years,
speaker
he had a lot of other things going.
speaker
And the indication.
speaker
I made a mistake a few years ago in
speaker
preaching King's sermon on one of the King there.
speaker
Look at that.
speaker
Looking at me.
speaker
And I probably would have,
speaker
but I haven't changed
speaker
in my evaluation
speaker
because regardless of what
speaker
you may think about
speaker
Martin or what have you,
speaker
the evidence came out that he tried
speaker
to drive King to
speaker
commit suicide.
speaker
He sent what he ostensibly
speaker
were supposed to be tapes
speaker
of supposedly
speaker
Martin and
speaker
the like, and he did
speaker
anything and that all the records
speaker
show.
speaker
And one of the things that the SNCC
speaker
kids understood better than
speaker
some of us
speaker
that when you saw those guys with
speaker
their button down shirts
speaker
and their three piece suits.

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Title: Conversations with Metz Rollins and Will Campbell, Tape 1, Part 1.
Description: Metz Rollins speaking about the civil rights movement at Ghost Ranch (Abiquiú, New Mexico) on July 19, 1983. Rollins speaks about the history of the civil rights movement in the United States, his time in Tallahassee, Florida (including his arrest for aiding Florida A&M University students in the Tallahassee city bus boycott), his time in Nashville, Tennessee (including his participation in the Nashville sit-ins), and the Freedom Rides organized by the Congress of Racial Equality (CORE). Part 1 of 12.
Creator: Rollins, J. Metz (Joseph Metz), 1926- (speaker)
Date: 1983
July 19, 1983
Type of resource: sound recording-nonmusical
Genre: sound recordings
Form: audiocassettes
Extent: sound cassette (47 min.)
Subject names: Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). Advisory Council on Church and Society--Archives.
Rollins, J. Metz (Joseph Metz), 1926-
Topics: Civil rights movements--United States.
Civil rights workers--United States.
African American clergy.
African American Presbyterians.
Civil rights demonstrations.
Geographic subjects: United States.
North and Central America--United States--New Mexico--Rio Arriba--Abiquiu
Rights status: IN COPYRIGHT - NON-COMMERCIAL USE PERMITTED; http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/
Physical location: RG 540, Box 200; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA
Related item: Advisory Council on Church and Society Records, circa 1916-2002.--https://www.history.pcusa.org/collections/research-tools/guides-archival...
Identifier (local): Conversations_metz_rollins_tape_1_part_1
PID (Persistent Identifier): islandora:344307

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