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Conversations with Metz Rollins and Will Campbell, Tape 1, Part 1.
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- speakerDear God our Father be with us now as we gather for
- speakerstudy and to
- speakerreflect and to try
- speakerto see into the past and
- speakerto have some idea about the future.
- speakerMay your blessing be upon us and lift us up, in the
- speakername Christ, we pray, amen.
- speakerAs indicated last evening,
- speakerthat, or while
- speakerwe would try to provide a kind of
- speakerhistorical overview
- speakerbackground and
- speakerin talking about the civil rights
- speakermovement, as I was
- speakerthinking when I
- speakerwas a young person in
- speakerit, I assumed that civil rights
- speakermovement started when
- speakerI got involved in the middle
- speakerfifties.
- speakerBut the civil rights movement has
- speakerbeen around for a long time,
- speakerthough it didn't make a lot of
- speakernoise. The NAACP,
- speakerthat's the National Association
- speakerfor the Advancement of Colored
- speakerPeople, the late
- speakerAdam Clayton Powell used to be said
- speakerit stood for the National
- speakerAssociation for the Advancement
- speakerof Certain People.
- speakerBut be that as it
- speakermay.
- speakerExcuse there's an urgent phone call for.
- speakerOkay.
- speakerYeah, that's okay.
- speakerAnd then, of course, there was the
- speakerUrban League and like.
- speakerAnd then there were suits, you know.
- speakerWhen you say early, what time?
- speakerWell, when I'm talking pre 50 before
- speakerthe fifties,
- speakerI think that you would have to say
- speakerthat the 1954
- speakerSupreme Court decision
- speakeron school desegregation was what
- speakersort of like jogged
- speakerpeople and put a pin
- speakerin it. But there had been freedom
- speakerrides, for instance, in 1948.
- speakerThere were people who came down and
- speakergot arrested in North Carolina and
- speakerthe like, but it didn't make a
- speakerripple because nobody picked
- speakerup on it.
- speakerAnd they went on back to New York.
- speakerThat was part CORE and
- speakerthat was a part of A.
- speakerPhilip Randolph.
- speakerBut keep in mind that the
- speakerold man, A.
- speakerPhilip Randolph, in 1941
- speakerthreatened the late
- speakerPresident Roosevelt with a march
- speakeron Washington, and out of it came
- speakerthe fair employment
- speakerpractice, pronunciation.
- speakerThere's a number for it.
- speakerI don't remember that Roosevelt
- speakerwrote that was supposed to guarantee
- speakerequal job opportunity during
- speakerWorld War One.
- speakerSo you had that.
- speakerAnd as I said, there had been
- speakerthe suit from
- speakerone of the few Black representatives
- speakerat that time in 1948
- speakerthat pushed for the opening of
- speakeraccess on the trains.
- speakerBut it didn't have much impact
- speakerbecause I remember coming down to
- speakerCalifornia in 1949
- speakeras a student.
- speakerI rode the train from Charlotte to
- speakerLos Angeles, and when I got
- speakerready to go in and eat in the dining
- speakerroom, I was escorted to
- speakera very nice table.
- speakerAnd then there was a curtain drawn
- speakeraround me.
- speakerSo but
- speakerthat was part of it.
- speakerThen, as I said 54,
- speakercivil rights.
- speakerI mean, the
- speakerSupreme Court decision
- speakerand there were those of us in the
- speakerBlack community who were naive
- speakerenough to believe that
- speakerthe white community and the people
- speakerwho were in power would do the right
- speakerthing. And you discovered right away
- speakerthat wasn't going to be so.
- speakerMy home state, Virginia, started
- speakerwhat they called massive resistance.
- speakerThe current governor, now in a
- speakerwheelchair of Alabama,
- speakeryou know, later on stood in the door
- speakerand the like.
- speakerSo there was
- speakera step, a fight
- speakerat every step of the way.
- speakerSo civil rights has also been
- speakerequivocation with fight to
- speakerhave to fight because nothing
- speakerin terms of civil rights has come
- speakervoluntarily, or freely
- speakereven from the best intention.
- speakerOkay.
- speakerSo the thing that really woke up the
- speakercountry was 1955
- speakerwhen the Montgomery bus
- speakerboycott occurred,
- speakerRosa Parks, a seamstress,
- speakerhad decided that she had enough and
- speakershe didn't get up off the bus.
- speakerAnd that occurred in
- speakerMontgomery, Martin Luther
- speakerKing, whom nobody had ever heard of
- speakerbefore.
- speakerAnd because he had been in
- speakerMontgomery the least,
- speakerand therefore among the Black
- speakerpreachers, had not already been
- speakerbought off by 10%
- speakeroff for an automobile or 10%
- speakeroff for furniture and the like.
- speakerBut there was a man named Dickson,
- speakerwas
- speakerhead of the NAACP, and a Sleeping
- speakerCar Porter,
- speakerwho really was the drive behind
- speakerwhat took place in Montgomery.
- speakerMartin was elected
- speakeras president of the
- speakerMontgomery Improvement Association
- speakerprimarily because he had only
- speakerbeen in town for a little while.
- speakerHe was clean and he was neat.
- speakerWhen I say neat and clean, it meant
- speakerthat he was not involved,
- speakerthat nobody had anything
- speakeron him in terms
- speakerof owing anything, or that he
- speakerhadn't bought an automobile where
- speakerhe'd been given the usual
- speaker10% off because he was a preacher.
- speakerSo that was the setting.
- speakerNow, the secret
- speakerof what happened in Montgomery
- speakerwas that
- speakerthe rank and file ordinary
- speakerBlack folks supported it
- speakerbecause one of the experiences
- speakerthat was learned by all
- speakerof us was that if the ordinary
- speakerpeople in the street then
- speakersupported you can have all the
- speakeroratory, you could have all the
- speakermeetings and all like that.
- speakerAnd so they had a carpool and
- speakerthere was if you saw the film
- speakerFrom Montgomery
- speakerto Memphis, you saw people
- speakerwalking and Black
- speakerpreachers were accused of making
- speakerlittle old Black ladies
- speakerhave to suffer because they were
- speakerwalking.
- speakerBecause keep in mind, public
- speakertransportation in the south,
- speakerin Montgomery and in Tallahassee
- speakerwhere I'm talking about was
- speakerprimarily used by
- speakerBlack folks, primarily
- speakerBlack folks who were domestics.
- speakerAnd we had to get out to white
- speakerfolks' kitchens and things like
- speakerthat.
- speakerAnd the success of it was was
- speakerbecause they stayed off
- speakerthe buses.
- speakerAnd so eventually
- speakerin Montgomery, of course,
- speakerthey would not accept the fact, and
- speakerthey did all kinds of things.
- speakerAnd finally they go all the way to
- speakerthe Supreme Court for
- speakerthem to rule that
- speakerthe segregation laws that determined
- speakerpublic transportation were
- speakerwrong and invalid.
- speakerIn Tallahassee, within
- speakerthat same period, I was involved
- speakerwith the bus boycott and
- speakerwe had one too that started on May
- speaker1956. And all they had, it
- speakerwas a it was a simple incident.
- speakerTwo girls from the local Black
- speakercollege, Florida A&M University,
- speakerhad gone downtown
- speakerand what was called a long seat.
- speakerYou know, the two long seats on the
- speakerfront, the bus had been filled
- speakerfrom the back up and
- speakerthe only seats available was on
- speakerthe right and they sat down.
- speakerThe bus driver said, you got to get
- speakerup because there was one white
- speakerperson on the bus who
- speakerneeded a seat and they said no.
- speakerAnd so the guy rolled them right
- speakeron up to the police station
- speakerand they were arrested and then
- speakerturned over to the college
- speakerauthorities.
- speakerI read about that on a Sunday
- speakermorning when I picked up
- speakerthe morning's paper.
- speakerIt said two
- speakerfront seat riding Negroes
- speakerarrested here.
- speakerThat was the mentality
- speakerof 1956.
- speakerAnd when I read it, I said could
- speakerbe, maybe, hopefully
- speakerwe'll have another Montgomery.
- speakerAnd I went on and did the usual
- speakerthing, went to church, preached, and
- speakerthe like, and
- speakernothing happened.
- speakerBut these girls were off
- speakercampus students and their addresses
- speakerhad been given in that
- speakerarticle.
- speakerThe next morning I got a phone call
- speakerfrom a student who told me, said,
- speakerCome on up to the
- speakermain auditorium.
- speakerSaid something's going on that you
- speakermay be interested in.
- speakerWhat had happened was that the night
- speakerbefore, somebody, nobody knows,
- speakerburned a cross in front of
- speakerthese girls' home where they
- speakerwere staying, and they had gotten
- speakerfrightened to come on the campus.
- speakerAnd then kids at around four
- speakeror five o'clock Monday morning AM
- speakergot the mimeograph machine going.
- speakerAnd so here were 3000
- speakerstudents. The fortunate thing, president
- speakerof the college was out of town
- speakerand all like that.
- speakerThis was the students and it was a
- speakervery simple thing.
- speakerYou know, again,
- speakerthe students didn't have any
- speakerproblem. They got up and said
- speakerone of our two of our students
- speakerhave been insulted.
- speakerAnd the guy made a statement, said
- speakerwe are going to we've got to do
- speakerand support the same things going
- speakerdown in Montgomery.
- speakerWhere did these students make this presentation?
- speakerThis was to students.
- speakerThis was this was 3000
- speakeralmost the whole student body at
- speakerFlorida A&M was there
- speakerin the auditorium.
- speakerAnd after they made the statement,
- speakerthey sang the alma mater
- speakergot up and walked out.
- speakerAnd again,
- speakeryou know that I'm a believer
- speakerin Providence and
- speakerthe Frenchtown bus,
- speakerwhich came because Florida
- speakerA&M was on one side
- speakerand there was a bus that went
- speakerbetween the two Black communities
- speakerand it came right through there
- speakerand they stopped it.
- speakerThey asked Black folks to get off
- speakerand the whole afternoon
- speakerand by five or six o'clock, the
- speakerword had spread.
- speakerTo make one more insight
- speakerinto this and then I'll let it go,
- speakerthe Black clergy that is
- speakerus preachers, had a meeting.
- speakerIt was Monday and went
- speakerover and I walked out of the meeting
- speakerat least three or four times because
- speakerthey were debating whether they
- speakerwould support the
- speakerstudent action.
- speakerAnd I had gotten up twice and said
- speakerhow the hell can you not support
- speakerstudent action? This already
- speakerhappened.
- speakerAnd we argued back and forth and
- speakerthe like.
- speakerTo make a long story short, that
- speakerevening there was a mass meeting,
- speakeroverflow crowd,
- speakerLife Magazine, New York
- speakerTimes, everybody was down there.
- speakerWe had Time Magazine,
- speakerNewsweek within the next week.
- speakerAnd so we carried on a bus boycott.
- speakerWe organized a carpool.
- speakerLater on, we were arrested for
- speakeroperating a for hire system
- speakerwithout a license.
- speakerThat's what the city fathers
- speakerdreamed up.
- speakerAnd I was among those
- speakerarrested.
- speakerAnd I'll tell a personal story here,
- speakerbecause this this is part
- speakerpersonal history.
- speakerI was sitting for dinner.
- speakerIt was a Wednesday evening, and we
- speakerwere supposed to have a mass
- speakermeeting.
- speakerThe doorbell rang and I got up.
- speakerMy wife was pregnant because she was
- speakerexpecting our second child.
- speakerAnd I went to the door and it was a
- speakerpoliceman.
- speakerAnd so he says, I got a
- speakerwarrant for Rollins.
- speakerI said, Well, I'm him.
- speakerSo he says, Are you going to come on
- speakerdown peaceful?
- speakerI said, Certainly.
- speakerSo I told my wife, I said, okay,
- speakerI'll see you later.
- speakerSo he says, Well, so you
- speakercan take your car or you can ride
- speakerwith me. So I said I'm gonna ride
- speakerwith you I said. At city expense.
- speakerI got in and I hopped in the front
- speakerseat right beside him.
- speakerSo we talked, and
- speakerhe was determined to impress
- speakerupon me that all it was
- speakerwas just a job.
- speakerAnd he didn't know nobody.
- speakerAnd that he didn't understand what
- speakerwas going on.
- speakerThat he'd just been given my name.
- speakerAnd so he'd come out and I would not
- speakerto feel bad about him.
- speakerAnd I said, No, I don't have any
- speakerfeelings toward you.
- speakerWell, we got down and
- speakerthey were bringing them in.
- speakerThere were nine of us to would be
- speakerarrested. We represented the board
- speakerof the Inter-Civic
- speakerCouncil, which was the
- speakername for the group that was
- speakersponsoring the bus boycott.
- speakerI had an elder fortunately who was
- speakera doctor, and
- speakerso he put up $500 cash
- speakerfor my bond and I was released.
- speakerBut the one person that was missing
- speakerwas the president of the group C.
- speakerK. Steele.
- speakerSo we went to the mass meeting and
- speakerthat evening the church was filled
- speakerand everybody heard about it.
- speakerLater on, Steele came in
- speakerfrom a trip and he got into the
- speakerchurch because we were at
- speakerhis church and his manse
- speakerwas right next door.
- speakerAnd after a while, somebody came in.
- speakerA policeman said,
- speakerWill we please ask
- speakerReverend Steele to come out?
- speakerThey didn't want to come into the
- speakerchurch. Here again, you're talking
- speakerabout the southern mentality,
- speakerpolicemen, racists
- speakerand the like, but at the same time
- speakerhaving reservations about coming
- speakerinto a church and
- speakerarresting the pastor because they
- speakerdidn't know what would happen.
- speakerAnd so Steele took his good time
- speakerand he spoke to the audience and
- speakereverything. In about ten or 15
- speakerminutes he walked on out and they
- speakertook him down. And he was back
- speakerwithin about 20 minutes.
- speakerWell, they were told we were crazy.
- speakerThe police chief of
- speakerthe town was very interesting.
- speakerHis name was chief Stoutamire.
- speakerHe had been a county sheriff
- speakerfor 30 some odd years,
- speakerowned a lot of property, run
- speakera lot of Black folks in jail.
- speakerAnd still in the midst of all
- speakerthis on Saturday morning,
- speakercould be found in the Black
- speakercommunity selling eggs, personally.
- speakerHe had his little basket walking
- speakeraround with eggs that had come off
- speakerhis farm, selling them to Black
- speakerfolks. They were buying eggs.
- speakerYes, sir. How are you doing.
- speakerHe knew them all
- speakerby face.
- speakerAnd when he called us into his
- speakeroffice, he said the preachers
- speakerare responsible for
- speakerwhat's going on.
- speakerAnd he swung around his chair and
- speakerthere was a Black woman making her
- speakerway down South
- speakerAdams Street walking by herself.
- speakerYou see now that nigger
- speakerwoman wouldn't have been walking
- speakerif you preachers hadn't been.
- speakerThat's what I'm saying.
- speakerThat's the kind of mentality that
- speakerwe had to deal with in terms
- speakerof, now he was a deacon
- speakerin the First Baptist Church,
- speakerand the First Baptist Church
- speakeralready occupied a block
- speakerand in 1955
- speakercalled itself the Church of the
- speakerMid-century.
- speakerAnd he even had the nerve enough to
- speakersay, well, that his preacher, that
- speakerhis children and his grandchildren
- speakerwould be paying for all of that
- speakerstuff later on, simply
- speakerbecause the preachers, so at least
- speakerhe integrated us and
- speakerincluded us in the fact that
- speakerpreachers were a problem some
- speakertime.
- speakerBut one other thing and then
- speakerI'll let that go.
- speakerWe asked for a meeting with the
- speakerwhite clergy
- speakerand the president of the White
- speakerMinisters Alliance was the pastor
- speakerof First Baptist Church.
- speakerAnd we did have a meeting.
- speakerAnd he said to us, he said, What you
- speakerall are involved in is a worldly
- speakeraffair.
- speakerWe can't participate in worldly
- speakeraffairs.
- speakerBut at the same time, every
- speakertime there was a debate about
- speakerwhether a county would go wet or dry
- speakerwithin 100 miles,
- speakeryou would read in the paper that the
- speakerdeacons of First Baptist Church
- speakerhad released their pastor so
- speakerthat he could go down and preach
- speakerabout the evils of alcohol
- speakerand the like.
- speakerSo I hold that in abeyance.
- speakerAnd for those of you who
- speakerthat is always been the irony
- speakerof ironies
- speakerthat, and
- speakerI say white, I don't have it.
- speakerIt is the only way to describe
- speakerit. The white folks keep talking
- speakerabout spiritual things.
- speakerWe Black folks have been accused of
- speakerbeing otherworldly.
- speakerYou know, we sing a song about
- speakeryou can have the world, but give me
- speakerJesus.
- speakerBut the irony of it all
- speakeris the white
- speakerfolks have been singing the song in
- speakerreverse. They have been
- speakeralways able to hang on
- speakerto the world.
- speakerAnd they said, Well, we got Jesus,
- speakertoo. Well when Black folks come
- speakeralong and assert themselves, we've
- speakerbeen accused of being
- speakeragitators and
- speakercommunists.
- speakerAnd the irony about
- speakerthe involvement in in
- speakerTallahassee that
- speakerwe will call
- speakermost of the Black clergy were
- speakerinvolved in it had only been in
- speakertown, four or five years
- speakerbecause I'd been in Tallahassee
- speakerfrom 53 to 55.
- speakerAnd so there was an editorial in a
- speakerlocal paper, calling upon
- speakerthe Black community to reject
- speakerthis new leadership and
- speakeraccept the stayed responsible
- speakerleadership that had been there all
- speakerthis time. That meant the.
- speakerWhere did you come from?
- speakerOh, I came from Charlotte.
- speakerI was serving in what was then the
- speakerSouthern Church, by the way.
- speakerI was a UP.
- speakerI'm a third generation Presbyterian
- speakerminister. That surprises a lot of
- speakerfolks.
- speakerBut my father, my grandfather,
- speakerand in 50, even
- speakerthough I had finished seminary,
- speakerthere was nothing for me.
- speakerI couldn't find a church.
- speakerSo I had taught at Johnson C.
- speakerSmith for three years.
- speakerAnd when the Southern Church,
- speakerthe one that we just united with,
- speakerdangled this opportunity to go down
- speakerinto Florida and organize, call
- speakerit a Black church.
- speakerThat's another story, too, and I
- speakerwon't go into that one
- speakerin the sense that our church
- speakergot started
- speakerand I was involved in it,
- speakerand the church that
- speakerwe were related to was First
- speakerPresbyterian Church of Downtown
- speakerTallahassee, had
- speakera big historic sign saying that
- speakerthe original slave gallery
- speakerwas there in their church, etc.
- speakerWhen I had come to Tallahassee, I
- speakerhad been wined
- speakerand dined all like that.
- speakerBut the power structure
- speakerin Tallahassee, keep
- speakerin mind that was a state government.
- speakerThat was state capitol.
- speakerLeRoy Collins had made the front
- speakerpage of Time Magazine
- speakerproclaiming a new day
- speakerin Florida.
- speakerAnd when we hit the page
- speakerwith that, I was accused
- speakerof
- speakerseveral things.
- speakerOne, I was told quite bluntly by the
- speakerelders of First Presbyterian Church
- speakerthat I knew what the situation
- speakerwas in Tallahassee and they couldn't
- speakerunderstand why.
- speakerThe other was that the
- speakerSouthern Church believed in
- speakerthe same thing, but they were going
- speakerto do it through Christian education
- speakerand through all those things, and
- speakerthat we were using the worldly power
- speakerstructure by going out, agitating
- speakerand stirring up and marching and the
- speakerlike. So that was it.
- speakerSo they cut
- speakerme off
- speakerand I brought my
- speakercongregation in Trinity Presbyterian
- speakerChurch back into the Mother
- speakerChurch, the United Presbyterian
- speakerChurch.
- speakerAnd we were released on the floor
- speakerof Presbytery up in Auburn,
- speakerAlabama, because
- speakerwe were a part of a geographical
- speakerabsurdity.
- speakerCentral Alabama Presbytery was
- speakera Black presbytery that included
- speakerchurches from Mississippi
- speakerand down into
- speakerNorthwest Florida,
- speakerincluding me.
- speakerI used to go to Presbytery.
- speakerI used to go to Montgomery,
- speakerTuscaloosa, you know,
- speakerdrive three or four. So it was a
- speakergeographical absurdity, but
- speakerit was a racist situation.
- speakerBut the brothers and sisters, when
- speakerthey heard my story, they released
- speakerus.
- speakerThere was no debate.
- speakerWe made a request, they honored it,
- speakerand we went in to the
- speakerChurch into the United Presbyterian
- speakerChurch, only to discover
- speakerthat our church wasn't ready for us
- speakeryet either, because the Atlantic
- speakerSynod, which was one
- speakerof the original Black synods and it
- speakerincluded South Carolina, Georgia
- speakerand Florida with churches that run
- speakerall the way down to Key West,
- speakerFlorida.
- speakerThere was a Black church there in Key West. So then
- speakerwe went from the frying pan
- speakerinto the fire.
- speakerAnd I was told when I went in, he
- speakersaid, Now, Metz, you.
- speakerThis was a friend of mine,
- speakerclassmate, chairman of National Missions.
- speakerHe says, You can't expect to make
- speakerthe same salary
- speakerthat the others are making because
- speakerafter all, you went off
- speakerand left us.
- speakerAnd at that time, 56, I
- speakerwas making the grand, great, and
- speakermasterful sum of $2600
- speakera year for a place to stay.
- speakerAnd keep in mind, that was Black
- speakersalary.
- speakerEqualization of salary in this
- speakerchurch of ours is only occurred
- speakerin the last five
- speakeror ten years.
- speakerIf it's really equal.
- speakerWell do you think that white sellers were that much more exciting the
- speakerBoard of National Missions.
- speakerWell, yes.
- speaker3600.
- speakerWell, it was a lot better, but it
- speakerwas more it was just a question of
- speakertime and also
- speakerwhat it is now.
- speakerI went back for the 25th anniversary
- speakerof that church, Trinity Church.
- speakerAnd because they are now integrated
- speakerfully, a part of the Synod of
- speakerFlorida and white pastors
- speakerdon't leave the cold climes of the
- speakerNorth to go down and
- speakerbe pastors in Florida for peanuts.
- speakerSo even though there were still
- speakera mission aided church,
- speakerwhat they were offering a salary in
- speaker1981 was more than what I was
- speakermaking in the Bronx because
- speakerthey were getting the minimum
- speakerthat it takes to get a pastor
- speakerto go to Orlando
- speakeror Miami or Fort Lauderdale
- speakerif he's gonna start a new church or
- speakerwhat have you, you know,
- speakerso and you know, you talk
- speakerand the basic salary was 23,
- speaker$24,000.
- speakerBut that's a different piece of
- speakerthe whole thing.
- speakerQuietly, but and very quickly.
- speakerOh, what else was
- speakergoing on in Tallahassee,
- speakerMontgomery.
- speakerAnd you recall in Little Rock,
- speakerthe desegregation of Central
- speakerHigh School in Little Rock
- speaker1957, I didn't get involved
- speakerin that until I left and went to
- speakerNashville in 58.
- speakerBut who was president at that
- speakertime? Who remembers who was
- speakerPresident?
- speakerEisenhower.
- speakerEisenhower, who had been a
- speakerbaptized here
- speakerin Kansas as
- speakera what? Brethren in the Water
- speakeror something like that.
- speakerAnd because of
- speakerEdward R.
- speakerElson, who was then the pastor
- speakerof the National Presbyterian
- speakerChurch, and would have been Ike's
- speakerpersonal chaplain over there in
- speakerParis made it,
- speakerand then all of a sudden, to be
- speakera Presbyterian was a status symbol
- speakerbecause the president of the United
- speakerStates was a Presbyterian.
- speakerBut this same status
- speakersymbol president, latecomer
- speakerPresbyterian, Dwight David
- speakerEisenhower was
- speakerthe same one who there
- speakerthat wasn't anything to do.
- speakerFinally, out of desperation, he sent
- speakertroops down in 1957.
- speakerEnough said about that.
- speakerEventually the problem
- speakerresolved.
- speakerI was in there
- speakerwith a man who was a pastor
- speakerof a little Black congregation
- speakerin Little Rock.
- speakerI remember being at a meeting in
- speakerTexarkana, Arkansas,
- speakeron the border where
- speakerwe come in by night,
- speakerwhere we met behind closed
- speakerdoors and close windows, white
- speakerand Black, but fearful
- speakerbecause this was a time
- speakerof tension in regards
- speakerto the whole situation there.
- speakerBut Eisenhower so far as being
- speakerpresident and having any impact
- speakerbecause.
- speakerEssentially, at least my estimation
- speakerof it was, that he was
- speakera classic example
- speakerof the kind of piety,
- speakerreligiosity,
- speakeryou know, they have prayer
- speakerbreakfasts along the Potomac
- speakerand all the usual things
- speakerand Elson was there
- speakerpreaching. And Elson, the most
- speakerfamous books,
- speakerwas a group of sermons called From
- speakerthe Ramparts We Watch.
- speakerWell, you can question
- speakerme on my judgments about folks later
- speakeron.
- speakerOkay.
- speakerThe next phase was 1959.
- speakerI was in Nashville.
- speakerThat's where I met Will Campbell.
- speakerAnd I had met
- speakerGlenn Smiley, a Methodist from
- speakerthe Fellowship of Reconciliation,
- speakerwhile I was in Florida.
- speakerAnd he was the one that brought
- speakermaterial.
- speakerAnd all of us were introduced
- speakerto the concept of nonviolence.
- speakerAnd we read André Trocmé
- speakerand a lot of the traditional
- speakerpacifists.
- speakerAnd so that was what was informing
- speakera great deal of that.
- speakerKing had been to
- speakerIndia.
- speakerBut he also read some of the same
- speakerthing. James Lawson I don't know
- speakerwho's from California.
- speakerJim Lawson was a,
- speakera Methodist.
- speakerHis name comes to forth
- speakeras Jim Lawson was enrolled at
- speakerVanderbilt Seminary.
- speakerAnd when the sit in started
- speakerin Nashville,
- speakerthe local papers had a field
- speakerday and it was the conservative
- speakerafternoon paper.
- speakerAnd Lawson was
- speakerheadlined.
- speakerAnd they
- speakerbecause he had been a C.O.,
- speakerhe had been, you know, he had not go
- speakerinto the Army and
- speakerhe had gone to India and worked
- speakerunder the Methodist board for one
- speakeryear.
- speakerAnd so they had it all figured out
- speakerthat Lawson had been sent, going
- speakerto India specifically
- speakerfor the task of learning about this
- speakerso he can come back to Nashville
- speakerand raise all this hell.
- speakerSo they kicked him out of Vanderbilt
- speakerSeminary.
- speakerAnd it was irony of ironies that
- speakerat the time that they kicked Lawson
- speakerout,
- speakerthere was a convocation
- speakerbeing held at the Seminary
- speakerand you know Boston
- speakerin the sister Methodist
- speakerschool, Boston College,
- speakeror is it Boston University?
- speakerI never can make, get the two, one's
- speakerCatholic, one's Methodist.
- speakerBut anyhow, Harold DeWolf,
- speakerwho was a pacifist,
- speakercame down and made a speech there,
- speakerand he had already left Boston
- speakerhonored with the fact
- speakerthat Boston would be delighted
- speakerto receive the
- speakerMr. James Lawson and he could
- speakerfinish his last year of seminary.
- speakerAnd that was part of
- speakersome of the other things that took
- speakerplace.
- speakerBut in Nashville,
- speakerwe had been preparing for
- speakerthe sit ins by nonviolent
- speakerpractice. We had started it in 59.
- speakerWe had done some drama.
- speakerCBS had put us on a half
- speakeran hour program that had gone across
- speakerthe country.
- speakerBut the irony of ironies was that on
- speakerFebruary 1st, 1964,
- speakerBlack youngsters from
- speakerA&T College, Greensboro,
- speakeron their own went down and sat in,
- speakerand that is listed as the official
- speakerdate of the sit-in movement.
- speakerAnd of course, within when
- speakerwe heard about what had happened
- speakerthere, by two
- speakerby three days later in Nashville,
- speakerwe had upwards to 1000
- speakerto 1500 students who had been
- speakerarrested and put in jail because
- speakerwe hit the streets
- speakerin big numbers.
- speakerAnd if you remember, for those
- speakerwho do remember snowballed
- speakerall over the South, everywhere
- speakerthere were students and wherever
- speakerthere was a Black college or
- speakerwherever they went out there,
- speakerthey sat in at places like
- speakerWoolworth's, Kress
- speakerand the like.
- speakerNow, it's very interesting.
- speakerWhat was the resistance after
- speakerthe original sit-ins or what
- speakeroccurred?
- speakerThe man of Woolworth's took off the,
- speakertook the the seat
- speakerpart of the counters off.
- speakerAnd so you went in and
- speakerthey all the seats, what
- speakerdo you call the spin around seats?
- speakerThey were taken off, the stools
- speakerand then
- speakersome of them closed up the
- speakerrestaurant.
- speakerYou go in and you would see there
- speakerwere pillows and
- speakerhousehold goods that was sitting a
- speakerlot across the lunch.
- speakerThen the irony was there
- speakerwas one of those stand up places
- speakeracross the street
- speakerwhere you would find the
- speakermanager of the store,
- speakerstudents who had been out
- speakerin front and anybody
- speakerelse standing because
- speakeryou remember Harry Golden,
- speakerwhat you call vertical integration.
- speakerThere never seemed to be any problem
- speakeras long
- speakeras we were in lines,
- speakerBlack folks and white folks could go
- speakerinto the banks, stand in the same
- speakerline.
- speakerBlack folks where there where those
- speakerplaces where they where they sold
- speakerliquor.
- speakerCharlotte and Nashville were dry
- speakerbut those places where they had
- speakerpackage stores.
- speakerYou could see lines of folks, and as
- speakerlong as they were standing up.
- speakerYou could almost be the most
- speakerintegrated thing in the world.
- speakerSo they had some
- speakerjuice stands and things like that.
- speakerAnd that was one of the ironies, as
- speakerlong as, and Harry Golden, the
- speakerJewish writer used to talk
- speakerabout the difference between
- speakervertical and horizontal
- speakerintegration. And his idea was
- speakertake out all the seats,
- speakerlet everybody stand,
- speakertake out all the chairs in the
- speakerchurches. Let everybody stand.
- speakerYou wouldn't have any problem you
- speakersee. That was the
- speakerthat was it. So that was one of the
- speakerphenomena that was one of the
- speakerinteresting,
- speakercurious things that took place
- speakerduring that time that all
- speakeracross the South, the immediate
- speakerresponse was to take
- speakerthe stools out
- speakerand to close up in some case,
- speakeror simply to have
- speakerthe practice of vertical.
- speakerAs long as nobody sat down,
- speakerthere was no problem.
- speakerYou could walk and stand and pick up
- speakerorange juice, hamburger, what
- speakerhave it. It presented no problem.
- speakerOkay, moving very quickly.
- speakerBy Easter of 1960,
- speakerthe students met all over
- speakerfrom all over the country.
- speakerThey met in Raleigh,
- speakerNorth Carolina.
- speakerKing was there.
- speakerAnd here begins the creation
- speakerof the Student Nonviolent
- speakerCoordinating Committee
- speakerwas organized in Easter,
- speakerEaster time, 1960
- speakerin Raleigh.
- speakerAnd later on we referred
- speakerto it SNCC, but just so you
- speakercould get it.
- speakerKing was there. Martin was there.
- speakerHe spoke and out of
- speakerit was this
- speakerorganization, which was to
- speakercoordinate and to carry
- speakeron the continued activities, because
- speakerby this time, the only victory
- speakerthat no victories had been
- speakerwon.
- speakerBut you'd had demonstrations from
- speakerFebruary through
- speakerEaster.
- speakerOkay.
- speakerThe first victory, believe it or
- speakernot, goes for
- speakercredit in Nashville, Tennessee,
- speakerwhere I was, where Will Campbell was
- speakerthat the powers that be
- speakerdecided that
- speakersince they weren't making any money,
- speakerand since white folks
- speakerwere staying out of downtown and
- speakersince, as one guy
- speakersaid, and the niggers were raising
- speakerhell, we just well give in.
- speakerSo you had the desegregation of
- speakerWoolworth's, Kress
- speakerand these little two by four
- speakersecond rate places.
- speakerBut they became symbolic
- speakerof the initial victory.
- speakerAnd then later on, cities and cities
- speakerwent on.
- speakerI went down to
- speakerat that time I was traveling and
- speakerI went to San Antonio, Texas,
- speakerand there it had been done by
- speakercommittee.
- speakerCatholic bishop and other powers
- speakerthat be
- speakerhad desegregated.
- speakerAnd I was at Trinity College
- speakeras a part of a Synod of Texas
- speakerevent.
- speakerAnd later on during the week, four
- speakerof us went out
- speakerto test it.
- speakerI was the only Black.
- speakerThere were two white women and
- speakeranother man.
- speakerAnd so we went into this place.
- speakerWe sat down
- speakerand after a while
- speakerthe woman came in and
- speakershe says, One of you
- speakeris going to have to move.
- speakerSo we said, Well, we read
- speakerdesegregation had taken place.
- speakerHe said, Yes,
- speakerand he's free and he can eat
- speakerand the like, but we're just not
- speakerready for
- speakermixing.
- speakerYou see the difference.
- speakerDesegregation,
- speakerintegration and mixing,
- speakerthose are in the mind.
- speakerTwo different words.
- speakerYes.
- speakerWhites, the women white or Anglos.
- speakerThey were Anglos and
- speakerwhites. They were they were they
- speakerwere on the staff.
- speakerIn 1960 you have any idea what would have happened then?
- speakerMaybe no problem. But the problem
- speakerwas simply it was the business of
- speakerthe of the presence
- speakerof a Black male and
- speakerwhite women.
- speakerThat was that was it.
- speakerThat's still a problem.
- speakerIf you realize if you look across
- speakerthe country, that kind of thing
- speakerstill occurs, you don't get
- speakerany overt but it
- speakeris still seen and if
- speakeryou, there are some stories and some
- speakerarticles have been done on, you
- speakerknow, interracial couples and etc.,
- speakerand it's still still a problem.
- speakerAnd so, as I said, that was very it
- speakerwas it was a humorous thing because,
- speakeras I said,
- speakerI thought I was being moved because
- speakerI was wearing shorts
- speakerand like that, but it had nothing to
- speakerdo with that.
- speakerSo we we left, but
- speakerthat's the way it was.
- speakerNow, the changes took place,
- speakerkeep in mind also so that nobody
- speakerwho lives in the North would ever be
- speakeroff the hook.
- speakerThere were demonstrations and
- speakersit-ins, sympathetic ones and the
- speakerlike.
- speakerAnd those of us who travel
- speakerin southern Illinois, southern
- speakerIndiana, southern Ohio.
- speakerI can tell you personally
- speakerthat that felt just as rabid
- speakeras Mississippi, Alabama
- speakerand the like.
- speakerWest Virginia, for instance, which
- speakernever had segregation on public
- speakertransportation, had
- speakerde facto segregation
- speakeracross the board all over.
- speakerWashington, D.C.
- speakerThe only thing that you could do was
- speakerride public transportation
- speakerand access to the parks.
- speakerUp until the sixties,
- speakerthey still had the Howard Theatre
- speakerand Black theaters.
- speakerDowntown
- speakerWashington, D.C.
- speakerThe nation's capital
- speakerwas still a bastion of segregation.
- speakerA Black men
- speakerwho worked for the railroad.
- speakerSalt Lake City
- speakeropened after 1964
- speakerand 65 because
- speakerin the land of the Mormons
- speakerand the great saints of that state
- speakersegregation and in terms of their
- speakerevaluation of who people are,
- speakerand I, for the life of me, have
- speakernever figured out why any Black
- speakerwanted to be a member of the
- speakerMormon Church.
- speakerBut I guess we want to integrate
- speakereverything.
- speakerOkay, so
- speakerthat was the continuation SNCC
- speakerthe Student Nonviolent Coordinating
- speakerCommittee was interracial
- speakerand it started out interracial
- speakerbecause at that time you had a
- speakerphenomenon where you had white
- speakerstudents who were willing to take
- speakeroff a year or two years from their
- speakercollege who came down.
- speakerThe the mindset in
- speaker60, 61 was
- speakerawful naive.
- speakerThat's a theological statement.
- speakerMay not be the best of theological
- speakerstatements, but most
- speakerof us believed
- speakerthat, for instance, when we had the
- speakersit-ins, we
- speakerhad students put on shirts
- speakerand ties and clean and nobody
- speakercould participate in
- speakera demonstration that had jeans
- speakerand things like that
- speakerbecause we assumed that
- speakerthe white men, you know, that they
- speakeryou know, you had heard all this
- speakercrap about people would tell you,
- speakerwell, if all of them were like you,
- speakerwe'd be happy to serve you.
- speakerIf all of them were like you, we'd
- speakerbe happy to let them
- speakersit beside, you know, that was the
- speakerusual B.S.
- speakerSo we went along with it.
- speakerAnd the early days all across
- speakerevery demonstration and every
- speakereffort.
- speakerWhen we finally desegregated
- speakerNashville, we selected people
- speakerto go out and eat.
- speakerWe said always be sure to put on a
- speakertie, always be sure put on a coat.
- speakerAnd even today and I have to throw
- speakerthis plug in, my wife
- speakertells me, you know when we go out,
- speakerbe sure to put on a coat and tie.
- speakerAnd I said, dammit, we'll go
- speakerto the best place.
- speakerAnd I was at a place last year, a
- speakerFrench restaurant.
- speakerAnd the latest thing is to have
- speakerthe white pants and
- speakersport coat. And I looked at this
- speakerturkey, he had on tennis shoes, but
- speakerno damn socks.
- speakerAnd I told my wife, I see.
- speakerI said, You see exactly where I'm
- speakergoing,
- speakerhere we work this hard.
- speakerAnd most of the places I go into
- speakermost of the places I go, I don't
- speakereven worry about it anymore.
- speakerIf I'd just make the exceptions,
- speakeracceptance that integration
- speakeris going to mean that you're going
- speakerto be associated with a lot of
- speakercrummy people, that's not the only
- speakerway to put it.
- speakerYou know, that was a classic story
- speakerabout a place in Atlanta,
- speakera tea room that was finally
- speakerdesegregated.
- speakerAnd the suggestion was made that
- speakersomebody, when they went in
- speakerafter he'd been served or seen
- speakerthem served and eaten.
- speakerThat in the middle of it all.
- speakerHe was suddenly stand up and
- speakerand just pound his breast
- speakerand said, Oh, God, was it worth
- speakerit? Oh, God, was it worth
- speakerit? After all the demonstrations
- speakerand the arrests and because the food
- speakerwasn't worth anything.
- speakerJesus. You know, when I first ate a
- speakerhamburger outside
- speakerof a Black greasy spoon, and to go
- speakerdowntown, paid
- speakerfor the.
- speakerYou know, it was.
- speakerIt wasn't. It took a little bit of
- speakertransition.
- speakerYou were paying more and eating less
- speakerand paying more and
- speakerthen enjoying it less.
- speakerWell, that's another thing, y'all
- speakercan talk about that.
- speakerOkay.
- speakerThe next big thing that occurred
- speakerand again, we're just trying to put
- speakerit in a little bit, was 1961
- speakerthe Freedom Rides, CORE,
- speakerCongress of Racial Equality,
- speakerorganized freedom rides,
- speakerand they headed south
- speakeron the buses.
- speakerAnd I don't know where you were.
- speakerAnd some of you weren't born maybe,
- speakerbut Mother's Day, 1961,
- speakerall across the news showed the
- speakerburning bus, Trailways bus, in
- speakerAnniston, Alabama,
- speakeras where the crowd, the mob, had caught
- speakerwith the bus and they burned it.
- speakerYou remember seeing pictures of it.
- speakerAnd
- speakerthey made it on to Montgomery.
- speakerWe came in to Montgomery and I came
- speakerdown.
- speakerWe had a mass meeting on a Sunday
- speakerabout a week later,
- speakerbecause they had been beaten in
- speakerMontgomery on Saturday.
- speakerAnd one thing I'll say about the
- speakermobs, they didn't make any
- speakerdistinction. They beat up white and
- speakerBlack alike. In fact, the anger
- speakerof white southern mobs was more
- speakerdirected toward whites because
- speakerthey saw them as traitors.
- speakerAnd you remember there was a fellow
- speakerfrom Milwaukee,
- speakerJames Zwerg. I don't know where he is.
- speakerThere was a picture of him standing
- speakerthere and the Montgomery bus bus
- speakerstation, teeth
- speakerout, blood coming down off his
- speakerface. The whole thing was part of
- speakerit. It along with John Lewis
- speakerand the like.
- speakerBut that was it.
- speakerSo that we tried
- speakerto regroup forces.
- speakerAnd that Sunday evening we were at
- speakerFirst Baptist Church in Montgomery.
- speakerAnd by that time, Kennedy,
- speakerthe late Kennedy,
- speakerPresident Kennedy had sent
- speakermarshals in
- speakerbecause the promise had been that
- speakerthere would be the National Guard,
- speakerwhich is Alabama.
- speakerAnd the upshot of it was
- speakerthat the marshals had been out to
- speakerthe Montgomery Air Force Base
- speakerand they had gotten sort of lax.
- speakerAt about nine or ten o'clock, the
- speakerchurch was attacked and they stood
- speakerlike the long thin gray line,
- speakerheaving back tear gas
- speakerthat they had thrown and the
- speakerlike. And finally,
- speakerabout 11 or 12 o'clock after
- speakerthey kept us from
- speakerbeing literally
- speakerattacked by the mob, they'd gotten
- speakerto the steps of the church.
- speakerThe governor called out the National
- speakerGuard.
- speakerAnd when we saw them march up the
- speakerstreet, we said, well, here comes
- speakerthe Ku Klux Klan dressed in the
- speakerkhaki uniforms
- speakerthat was about the size of it, we
- speakergot out of the church about three AM
- speakerthe next morning.
- speakerBut we had been on the phone.
- speakerKennedy was rich
- speakerand conservative.
- speakerHe did not come into office
- speakeron any promise
- speakerof anything.
- speakerI'm talking about the late President
- speakerKennedy,
- speakerhis brother, the attorney
- speakergeneral. And we called him
- speakeron the phone that night
- speakerwas either naive or
- speakerinsensitive because
- speakerthe later thing that he made
- speakerjust before his assassination
- speakerwhen he ran for president
- speakerwere a whole lot different from the
- speakerKennedy of 1961.
- speakerAnd they moved slowly and
- speakerthey did not have any.
- speakerThey told us to cool it.
- speakerI came to a meeting in New York
- speakerabout two weeks after this
- speakerparticular incident.
- speakerBurke Marshall, now a lawyer,
- speakera professor of law at
- speakerYale, was there,
- speakerand the official word from
- speakerWashington was to cool it.
- speakerWe'll see if we can't work this out.
- speakerSo the upshot of it was that, I'm
- speakersorry I saw your hand.
- speakerNo just stretching.
- speakerOkay.
- speakerNo I had my hand up.
- speakerOkay, good. Interrupt any time you
- speakerwant to.
- speakerJust to digress
- speakerfor a second, but Bobby Kennedy.
- speakerOr shall we say, roll, non-roll.
- speakerTaped off?
- speakerNo,
- speakerBobby Kennedy.
- speakerYou know, as I said,
- speakerI think both he and his brother grew
- speakerinto it. I think if the President
- speakerhad not been assassinated.
- speakerYou know, it may have been a whole
- speakerdifferent thing,
- speakerbut they were naive.
- speakerThat was all Bobby Kennedy
- speakerat the Virginia
- speakerLaw School and
- speakerthe like.
- speakerYou know, he was under a lot of
- speakerpressure because he got that
- speakerjob
- speakeras the attorney general, everybody
- speakersaid because his brother
- speakerwas president.
- speakerHe had no legal or legal
- speakerbackground and the like.
- speakerAnd as I said, I reserve judgment
- speakeron him. I just know what he did
- speakerdo in that particular crisis.
- speakerI was shocked
- speakerand hurt when I heard about his
- speakerassassination.
- speakerBecause I had worked on, and
- speakerI remember at Martin's
- speakerfuneral.
- speakerKing had been, when I was in
- speakerAtlanta, he
- speakerthere were all kinds of folks.
- speakerNixon was there.
- speakerPeople, you know, I can't believe,
- speakeryou know, folks
- speakerbecause the man the President or whatever the hell Nixon was at the time.
- speakerThey were shaking hands, and taking
- speakerpictures as he came upon the church.
- speakerThing
- speakerabout Bobby Kennedy, he had a
- speakersense of what was taking
- speakerplace.
- speakerAnd marched along quietly he acknowledged people's presence did not stop
- speakerand turn it into a field day for
- speakerhimself.
- speakerNow J. Edgar Hoover.
- speakerHe was a Presbyterian.
- speakerHe taught Sunday school for forty years,
- speakerhe had a lot of other things going.
- speakerAnd the indication.
- speakerI made a mistake a few years ago in
- speakerpreaching King's sermon on one of the King there.
- speakerLook at that.
- speakerLooking at me.
- speakerAnd I probably would have,
- speakerbut I haven't changed
- speakerin my evaluation
- speakerbecause regardless of what
- speakeryou may think about
- speakerMartin or what have you,
- speakerthe evidence came out that he tried
- speakerto drive King to
- speakercommit suicide.
- speakerHe sent what he ostensibly
- speakerwere supposed to be tapes
- speakerof supposedly
- speakerMartin and
- speakerthe like, and he did
- speakeranything and that all the records
- speakershow.
- speakerAnd one of the things that the SNCC
- speakerkids understood better than
- speakersome of us
- speakerthat when you saw those guys with
- speakertheir button down shirts
- speakerand their three piece suits.