As in institutions, seminaries can mobilize all they want. But if the administration faculty, the budget where our treasury is, there's also our heart. There's a money. I mean, that's why you have a two week course instead of a whole department. We were talking about the Black Studies program, the vector program, the corrections department. It's like it has to be institutionalized. And so part of how women in ministry would be taken seriously is to do an audit of the seminary and to see where where the facts are, what's the ambiance of the institution, and that you can become. I mean, there would be black African American students at Emory if someone had said, that's part of our mission statement. And in order to do that, we got to bring books. We got to have the money. Well, Miles, and then you get African-American students anyway. It needs to do that. Don't want to. They know how to up something. And I think that's like what Martin Luther King says, that the church and theological educators need to be thermostats instead of thermometers. And that's what you're saying, instead of being a prophetic voice to say this is where if we're going to be true to what it means to be God's people, this is what we need to be doing. But a lot of seminaries want to follow the traditions of the past, and they wonder why the church is in a situation where the white people are so spiritually bankrupt.

They set out to, again.

You know, like so we have it's like, so you have to go to the mission statement. And if the mission of this institution doesn't say we take seriously, it's that you can talk to you purple in the face.

What happened? So so they had all the concerns I think women.

Have to all to take to the administration their concern and to fight for what they. So there's no.

Most seminaries that I'm aware. Our economy. Very close to it. So do you have bad numbers? How is administration? Yes. Apparently we have to take seriously whatever we might want to share with. It has to be a large back. So I think that in many instances it may.

Involve dialog and dialog.

She shared with them the things that all the politicians and the seeking press. Has got a candidate that can be patient prophylaxis and. Many times the fact that black students. Now. Now, George started the.

Course of years ago when he was just christened. I think this is a lot.

Lorraine, if you had a question or comment.

I flew. As an outsider. You. The resistance. I would really like to see what I was. I suspect that you might also get it from.

It blocks women from.

What is going to happen to the right? How is that?

Well, I teach courses on this all the time. So you talk about an 18 week course. I could do it. 18 records. I'm just answering your question. And that's 3 hours every week of 18 weeks. And that's how powerful and provocative your question is, because you have to do a system institutional analysis of how Andrew centric patriarchy works. And there are three tiers that it works on biologically that says if you're born male, you're born superior and people are female, you're born inferior. Culturally, if you're born male, you an asset of civilization is born female, you're liabilities of civilization. And the theological that God has ordained it that way, then you impose. That's what woman this is about. Because then you go back and you say you're born white, is born.

Superior people and black people that period.

So you got a female black and you got two strikes against biologically, okay, Culturally, if you want, mind you, an asset of civilization. If you're born of African descent, you are not beloved. But if you're female and black, you got two more strikes against it. Theological as God has ordained it that way. So unpacking those layers and layers of lies to get to the essence is what is how you answer that. There's a Chinese proverb This is 90% of what we see this behind us. And so what I do in this case is try to change the normative gaze so that what we see back here will change what we see out here. Okay. So to try and say, well, what's going on in a person's mind, it's like what Carter do what he did in 1930. If I control what you think, I don't want to hear about what you would do if I had to stop. How do you kind of what kind of information you get. I don't have to be concerned about how you're going to act. If I make you feel inferior, you will seek an inferior status, a back door. Your very nature will depend on Malcolm X, Call it the rape of the psyche. So in order for any kind of institutional oppression to get in place, you first have to have an economic violent counter-reaction. And the second rape is a cultural hegemony where people internalize their very existence, saying, I am nothing and you must be less than that. Okay? And so by the time you get people mobilizing countries is that they say God has that God doesn't make garbage, God doesn't make trash. I am somebody. Then this first cycle of oppression start where you get a lot of people incarcerated in prison, dropping drugs in the community like napalm, making people unemployed, taking away funding to go to school. They'll give people options if they catch up with a vegetable, get out cheese, take away the free milk. You do all I mean, it's a system systemically in place so that people that internalize say, I don't want to try it. Why not numb out? I mean, you go to the drug rehab centers, you've got an average IQ of most of the African-American 140 and above people who can think and analyze and see what's going on and say, what the hell, there's only playing this game. So it's like, so where do we come in to provide some some some hope, some real hope, Not some floozy kind of thing, Not some kind of Band-Aid. Both some systemic, transformative capital to make people have to work to give people the will to move back. So I think that's why if you're up against that kind of systemic, institutionalized oppression that people work day in and day out to make sure other people never have a sense of who they are.

One more quick question and wait a minute. Two more quick questions. I'm sorry. Vivian's hand was first, I believe, and then and then Rosetta, those who will be the last to.

Sort of give you that on top of everything that are. They took the.

Lead to go. In your opening. The outflow of women into ministry. And after some. And that certainly. So ask me and the level that.

You've reached in that.

How little. How little You take five.

Oh, I'll get it when we get out of.

Not to just about everything else. I marriage, you know. Ow, ow, ow.

Ow.

Ow! Sudo pole. Yeah. And I may take it so very, very literally by me. And then listening to that, the channel which talks about how I think in terms of terms of the psyche as such, I mean, how much that sound. In the past, women hide behind in terms of taking that person to the most reckless. In terms of putting that kind of thing.

But if you want viewers.

Thousand seven. Great.

Basically. As business people myself. The pastor had to be guided by the Spirit of God. Pastor has to have something. Not necessarily as all. For me it. Yes, I am certain that my view feel. But I tried to see where it got to. My view of the Bible is that more or less everything.

So that there is.

But at least I know.

After five days of.

Basic. Be assured that he has directed. But I mentioned to you in terms of the organization of. But I would say not. Right. So five. Even in talking to other.

It was viewed that this was basically. Years ago.

And I. This move. Now, whether folks like that or not or agree with that, that's what some folks actually feel that it was it was bad. What I was what I was also pleased to say and his brother here is that talked to both. So that they can in turn share. And then when you talk, you can basically start seeing actual people because the Bible and look at the Bible in terms of not only what's in there, but basically what's there. What is it that the Bible is basically saying? Yes, everything that's in the Bible is not as it is written applicable as it is written. But the spirit of West. Certainly can be used for anything. If one is leading a church, one will find out very quickly that you're going to have several people in the church who will tell you, Wait it out. But I'll. They will tell you how to do it this way. My feeling is this way. My feeling is that for me, I have always gone to. In terms of secret gear, we've got not so much what we think of as Banksy. Not so much what the trustees want to put the word of God in terms of what the Lord is saying. I listen to what everybody says, but then I pray and ask God for his God That has helped me in my marriage. And I have been pastoring churches now since 1971. So far I've been doing that it halfway decent job, but that's how I've been. It's been my way of doing my listening to golf. Having asked God open my heart allows me to be here today. So the pack dialog from for motorists would say, Hey, if you settle, I ain't got to worry about that. I'm not going to sit up there and subject myself to some call trying to come down on me.

Those are issues that nobody ever has before. LG Almost literally.

There are some who might say that whatever reason, the issue is so. I'll bet you. I bet you if you go around and ask most of the pastors in Atlanta. Com to Emory University Press. But they probably said, Well, I've got a week, I've got a lunch. They would come. I came here knowing that I could have come in and basically try to care. I think, for everybody. I just seemed happy about the problem, but I felt that I had to learn how to do that. And that we learned through our share of not necessarily trying to talk down. Not necessarily trying to talk. Not necessarily trying to show up, but we learn through dialog. And that's that's what has brought me to where I am. Dialog and scripture and course. It brought me to where I am, where I can talk. In a vision where I can share with you the, you know, quite comfortable really, in this room. But that comes through talking. You know, if people yell and try to show up, we get turned off.

I think it is critical to ministry to know to whom we call and whom we're not calling. And I think, like you said, there's a just a daily devotional can be a morning by morning, day by day, because there's some people are killing off churches. They kill off everything they touch because they haven't yet found their niche. They haven't yet found which to add to my congregation. And we've got this common humanity. And that's why you would never give me the comfort that they would do to let them have share power. There are other people who would need to do that, but that's their call that they've managed to take on the David Duke film and Jerry Falwell, the Lester Maddox and all the Grand Dragon football players. But it is important to note that your call is is to me is not called the minister and that's it. This is serious for both sides, you know, and that's why I've Marvelyn Bishop, Barbara Harrison, Jim Forbes takes on Jerry Falwell for the world. But if I know what I'm up against, I know why that's not my call. And that's someone else and my own mind. In fairness, as I go into. And each of us must decide. So, like what I'm saying, we all called and talked to the same people. And so, you know, and that's only through revelation, through modification and devotion. Do I get that close again to who am I called quickly?

Rosetta.

All right. This is. What do you experience blind when you see?

That's. But I want to do it just before we start saying back to what Brian said about age and the discrimination around age, both on if you're too young and too old way that works with the minister. And I just want to admire your courage to not the not to the marriage. Also, because I've known a number of my brother colleagues who got married just to get married. And then marriages never work. All kind of battering and abuse and marital rape goes on. But it's like they go back, they grab somebody they want to propose and they get it. But they did not true at all. But they simply got together to say, that man ain't no love. There ain't never been nothing or be no love. But they got the truth. So for you to say that people I don't know really understand the depth of that kind of clarity on, you know, my brother Harris was saying how honest you are coming from that took a lot of honesty to say what you think, because I know a lot of people I mean, they got out in public is like they the ideal couple. And but when you one of their friends and you know what's going on and how they should have never done it and now they're against divorce, they totally get it. And they never had no love in that house. And you can't have love if you get a lover. How can you have love in your church? Are you going to give away what you ain't got? You know, And so that was another comment of the women. And that issue of women have an academy. Oh. What you want to. I think that was on my other is.

That I never got him, quote unquote ever again. Well, yeah, that's.

Why I said, what do you perceive? Well, I mean, I know you read the paper, right? I'd like to.

Quote both from my perception, according to that, I'm sure as I begin to experience more perception. But my perception is that there is a bit of a distinction between the problems that black women and white.

And that there are serious struggles on the part of Black Lives Matter. The state. Is that right? We've been hearing.

About some of the you know, we're around that. You're exactly right. Frankly, here at Emory, they are. But you know yourself, Don, that many black women.

Who are in training for the program and biblical standing there, I think for.

There is.

You gave them. You give us to all that? I don't know.

Well, this is coming from. On the we tried in the introduction of Kanye West in Focus. So I'm using his number. Oh, and how about I'm going to figure it out? I don't know all the names, but I'm using his name. But there may there may be less than that. But I mean, even poor that has a horrible figure.

In the history of humankind.

In that regard. So and from talking with him and others like him, one of the answers that come into it is that there is a lack of at the seminary level of encouraging students to show up, essentially to encourage them to move in a direction toward academic work and research. And that problem is also there for.

Black males, but much more so for black female. That when he goes. Talk about going into the.

Thermostat is a difficult.

That kind of.

Persuasion is the one thing that the. I think I'll find it very interesting as I began to work in an academic situation. How much about the U.S.? I'm very concerned about. I'm just not quite sure.

I have enough clarity.

Being the first black woman to get a page from Union Cemetery in 147 years. Like the Union seven, her and Union takes Baptist as one of the leading progressive senators in the country. Haywood It was it was a crucifix it for me. And yet it was, as the brother said to me in the academy, it couldn't have been done anywhere but at Union, you know that the union has turned out more black women than any other family in the country. And so even though it is that, how do you you can imagine what are going through in the other two independent seminaries in the country, if it's that difficult in New York City? I think they right now some of their sins. Black women have ten years and I think we have that this year. And then after that, we won't be offering our training among the whole woman. This kind of movement. What we're trying to do is woman scholarships and make it last longer than that. So we're not going anywhere. And that's why we've moved from a consultation and academy to a working group. And we're hoping to eventually get the status of affection. To say that we can say that we've been left out with the pushed out, but we have something that we embody both in black women and we don't do the class stuff and sexual orientation stuff and all of the variables we deal with that we bring to the Christian faith a different ideology, perspective, theology. And that is taught we're not the purpose appendages, we're not thrown away. So I think that a lot of it follows the trade went through the time, though, when, you know, if you don't, part of getting out, being a black woman in the academy is having somebody standing with somebody who believe they can be and whether they actually and move you to if you don't have that, the whole process of completing that process, being bleached and moving out all the time. And how do you maintain your psyche? How can you do creative work when everybody is always trying to make you to a white woman or a black man, you know, and other that you've got to carve up just enough limited space to maintain just to say things that want to get the creative work done. And that's what black women often get. But that's why I'm always trying to encourage more black, more black women to to hold that in balance. But. This.

I'll find someone else to pay off of the attractive uncle.

This is difficult.

And I think this is with all of the people who have dealt with this so long, because you can throw hints. And we're probably really ready to address the issue.

Camilla has been very active in providing. Black male. And so and I think that carries over his the path here from where you went in. And certainly in addition to that, there are issues that sometimes we have to confront the issue. We have to pick up the pieces. And I think that's true of the fact that you have a black woman who's black when you look at the platform on this. I would love to have a female colleague to the position today. And we appreciate that introducing you. But there was nobody to turn to. But the question is, how long.

Would you have to do institutional analysis because you don't want a black to have your energy drained? Well, you know what? People in power. No. It ain't going nowhere even for a whole year. And nothing happened. Harvard Business School has been working 20 years. A black person, the faculty. Nobody is going to help you in 20 years. And every year the students spend, they will drain the energy and it can caucus go on and they go have the view. Don't understand how the professor coming to work at a Powell work. Just say we're not going to play that game. We're like them to put that ball down there. And he promised she's not going to take it away. And every year she takes it away. Right. It's like, don't be too late.

That's how we got that. That's how Robert Franklin got here, because we said, okay, this is the end of time. Yes. And I think the same thing is will have to carry over out of this thing. Here is the black churches. And we'll have to say, like when we are tired with the three of us, pick up the kids, love, address the issue, stop sugarcoating you. Try to simply go for the dress. Get rid of this.

Let let us show our appreciation to our panelists. Couple of brief now.