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Chris Glaser oral history, 2022.
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- speakerAll right, let's get started.
- speakerMy name is Nick Skaggs, and it's
- speakerMarch 30th, 2022.
- speakerI'm interviewing Chris Glaser.
- speakerSo Chris, can you talk
- speakera little bit about your early life
- speakerand what led you to the Presbyterian
- speakerChurch?
- speakerOK.
- speakerAnd thanks, Nick, and thanks to the
- speakerPresbyterian Historical Society and
- speakeranybody who listens or watches this
- speakerfor your interest in this.
- speakerI was raised as a fundamentalist
- speakerbiblical literalist Baptist
- speakerand went to a fundamentalist
- speakerbiblical literalist
- speakerelementary school and junior high,
- speakerwhere my mother also taught first
- speakergrade.
- speakerSo that
- speakerwas my my background,
- speakerbut I was yearning for something
- speakera little more open and welcoming
- speakerthan what I experienced in
- speakerthis environment.
- speakerAnd not only just open
- speakerand welcoming for me because I
- speakerwasn't really willing
- speakerto be welcoming of my sexuality,
- speakerbut open
- speakerand welcoming of different kinds
- speakerof people
- speakerand and
- speakeralso more open to biblical
- speakerscholarship.
- speakerI think fundamentalists often and
- speakerbiblical literalists
- speakeroften think that they
- speakerare speaking for the authority
- speakerof scripture when they
- speakerdecry biblical scholarship.
- speakerBut actually, I think biblical
- speakerscholarship helps you get
- speakermore of the meaning of
- speakerscripture than just reading
- speakerit word for word, literally.
- speakerSo that was my background,
- speakerand I
- speakerleft the Baptist Church in
- speakersearch of a congregation,
- speakera church that I felt I could serve
- speakerbecause I felt called to ministry as
- speakerearly as junior high and
- speakereventually ended up in
- speakerthe Presbyterian Church.
- speakerI need to do a little segway.
- speakerI came into the Presbyterian Church
- speakerbecause a couple of friends found
- speakerthis progressive
- speakerPresbyterian Church in Van Nuys,
- speakerCalifornia and thought
- speakerI would enjoy it
- speakerand brought me to the first
- speakerSunday service of the new decade
- speaker1970.
- speakerAnd the young student
- speakerminister, the interim,
- speakerthe
- speakerhe was a student minister,
- speakergave a sermon on the last 10 years
- speakerof the Civil Rights Movement and I
- speakerthought, Wow, I'd never heard that
- speakerfrom the pulpit before.
- speakerAnd the next week, the old
- speakerminister got up to speak and I
- speakerthought, Oh dear, here it comes.
- speakerAnd he was even more progressive
- speakerthan the young minister was.
- speakerAnd so that really drew me in,
- speakerand within three months I became a
- speakerPresbyterian.
- speakerI was particularly taken
- speakerwith the Confession of 1967,
- speakerwhich had been recently passed by
- speakerthe denomination because it spoke
- speakerabout the reconciliation among the
- speakerraces. This was during the days of
- speakerthe Civil Rights Movement and
- speakeramong the races, but also among
- speakerthe nations, and this was also
- speakerduring the Vietnam War period.
- speakerSo both of those were of interest to
- speakerme as something
- speakerappropriate for Christians to be
- speakerinvolved in and they concerned
- speakerabout.
- speakerBut yeah, great segway.
- speakerSo then once you became
- speakerpart of the Presbyterian Church,
- speakerthe 1976 General Assembly
- speakercame around and
- speakerthe Presbyterian
- speakerChurch's Task Force to Study
- speakerHomosexuality was formed
- speakerand you were a member of it,
- speakerthe only openly gay member.
- speakerCan you talk about that a little
- speakerbit?
- speakerSure. And I need to tell another
- speakersegway I'm so sorry I screwing up
- speakeryour interview here.
- speakerNo, no.
- speakerBut you can edit out the the
- speakerinterruptions.
- speakerAnd let me just say that when I was
- speakerat this Presbyterian Church, I was
- speakerasked by one
- speakerof the student clergy
- speakerto participate in leading
- speakera sexuality
- speakerclass for the young people of the
- speakerchurch, and I hardly knew
- speakerenough about sexuality to do that.
- speakerBut I was impressed that this
- speakercongregation was interested in
- speakerdoing some talk and discussion
- speakerabout sexuality, and that began to
- speakerinvite me to come forward
- speakerwith my own sexuality and.
- speakerAnd in fact,
- speakerwe had a weekly forum
- speakerafter service every Sunday
- speakerwhere we talked about issues
- speakerand including political issues.
- speakerAnd so I was on the
- speakerforum committee and recommended that
- speakerwe hear from this
- speakerrepresentatives from this new
- speakerchurch that later became a
- speakerdenomination that was formed
- speakerin Los Angeles Metropolitan
- speakerCommunity Church.
- speakerAnd so we had two representatives
- speakercome and speak, and there was some
- speakercontroversy about it.
- speakerPeople were afraid people wouldn't
- speakercome to the forum.
- speakerNormally, they attracted 40
- speakerpeople after church on Sunday
- speakerto listen to whatever speaker
- speakeror speakers we had.
- speakerAnd so.
- speakerThey were afraid that attendance
- speakerwould be down, but then
- speakerwent ahead with it.
- speakerAnd 80 people came, so
- speakerit was twice the number of people
- speakerthat normally attended these forums
- speakerthat were interested in this
- speakerchurch that was formed around
- speakerwelcoming LGBT
- speakerpeople and that gave
- speakerhelped me to take heart.
- speakerAnd I began to talk with the
- speakerminister about
- speakermy own sexuality and received
- speakersupport, and I
- speakerhad decided to go into
- speakerthe ministry, as I said.
- speakerAnd so I came under care of the
- speakerPresbytery San Fernando
- speakerand their candidate's committee.
- speakerAnd so I was a candidate
- speakerfor ordination at the time
- speakerthat the
- speakerTask Force was
- speakerformed.
- speakerI was not out
- speakerto the committee at first, but I did
- speakercome out and they were not sure,
- speakeras one committee member said,
- speakerI had a chance of a snowball
- speakerin hell of being
- speakerordained by that presbytery.
- speakerBut I, meanwhile,
- speakerhad served as a
- speakercampus minister as
- speakeran intern at the Christian
- speakerAssociation, University of
- speakerPennsylvania, and that I served that
- speakerfrom the fall of 75 to the summer
- speakerof 76.
- speakerAnd it was during that time that
- speakerwhen I went to the Baltimore
- speakerGeneral Assembly, that was in
- speakerPhiladelphia, so
- speakerthe that I served
- speakerin this capacity.
- speakerBut it was
- speakerthe Baltimore General Assembly,
- speakerwhere they were debating for
- speakerthe first time openly
- speakergay candidates for ministry.
- speakerAnd I participated as a lobbyist.
- speakerI had never been to a General
- speakerAssembly before and Bill
- speakerSilver, who was the candidate
- speakerin question in fact from New York
- speakerCity Presbytery, and
- speakerI worked the room.
- speakerWe worked with the committee dealing
- speakerwith this, this
- speakeroverture seeking guidance from New
- speakerYork City Presbytery, and
- speakerand also worked alongside Jean
- speakerMarshall, who was chair of the
- speakerAdvisory Committee on Church
- speakerand Society.
- speakerAnd it was eventually
- speakershe and Thelma Adair,
- speakerI believe the first Black
- speakerwoman elected as Moderator
- speakerof a General Assembly, who appointed
- speakerthe Task Force.
- speakerAnd and so
- speakerI had gotten to know
- speakerJean and and really to know Thelma.
- speakerBut they subsequently,
- speakerwhen the Task Force was
- speakerproposed,
- speakerincluded my name, I
- speakerhad been nominated by someone
- speakerto serve as the
- speakertoken openly gay
- speakerperson.
- speakerAnd at the time, I said, You should
- speakerhave a lesbian too, I mean.
- speakerBut they they thought
- speakerthey were lucky to have one openly
- speakergay person on
- speakerthis Task Force.
- speakerAnd so
- speakerthat's how things
- speakertranspired.
- speakerAnd was there a part of the question
- speakerI didn't get to?
- speakerNo, that's great.
- speakerAny moments
- speakeron the Task Force between 1976
- speakerand 1978 that stand out to
- speakeryou, that stay with you
- speakerwhile you were doing the work?
- speakerThere are many moments, but I
- speakercan just mention two,
- speakeryou know, the problem with asking
- speakerpeople about their memories.
- speakerLillian Hellman famously said
- speakerthe longest sentence in the world
- speakerbegins with, I remember.
- speakerSo I have much
- speakerto say about all of
- speakerthis. But since
- speakerI had the questions in advance, I
- speakerkind of thought of two, that I
- speakerwanted to talk about.
- speakerAnd one was when
- speakerthe kind of the crux of the division
- speakerof the Task Force became apparent.
- speakerAnd that was
- speakerDon Williams, who was a conservative
- speakermember of the Task Force,
- speakerreally was
- speakerobjecting to our theology,
- speakerand it was
- speakerGeorge Edwards who was a professor.
- speakerI think professor of New Testament,
- speakeractually at
- speakerLouisville Presbyterian Seminary.
- speakerDon was actually at Fuller
- speakerSeminary, so a more conservative
- speakerseminary, who
- speakergot into this really
- speakerdramatic confrontation
- speakerwhere George Edwards said to
- speakerDon Williams, You know,
- speakerI know your God, your
- speakerGod is the one who demands every
- speakerdrop of Christ's blood be spilled
- speakerfrom the cross before
- speakerhe will forgive anybody
- speakerof anything.
- speakerAnd it was
- speakerit was quite stunning
- speakerconversation that they had.
- speakerAnd that was, I think, though
- speakercrucial
- speakerunder
- speakera difference between those
- speakerwho were more open
- speakerto welcoming LGBT people
- speakerthan those who were not,
- speakerthat they had
- speakera a different theology,
- speakerprompting them to their position.
- speakerSo that was one one memory,
- speakerand the other memory was when I
- speakerhad a bad time with my presbytery.
- speakerI had
- speakerto transfer from Presbytery of San
- speakerFernando to
- speakerPacific Presbytery
- speakerbecause Presbytery of San
- speakerFernando would not let me accept
- speakera job, and this happened mid
- speakerin the middle of the Task Force's
- speakerwork,
- speakerwould not let me accept a job at
- speakeranother church in another presbytery
- speakerthat
- speakerincluded the welcome of LGBT
- speakerpeople.
- speakerAnd so I
- speakerwe had our kind of
- speakerwatershed vote
- speakerabout a year or so into
- speakerour meetings, and
- speakerwe each came talked about where
- speakerwe came down.
- speakerAnd since it had just happened, what
- speakerhappened to me, what I just
- speakerdescribed, that's what
- speakerI spoke about.
- speakerAnd it so moved
- speakeranother member of the Task
- speakerForce who was a closeted
- speakergay man who had
- speakerserved as
- speakerModerator of the General Assembly.
- speakerI can tell you many wonderful
- speakerstories about him, but I won't,
- speakerto come out and say
- speakerthat he too was gay and
- speakerhe had served the church in multiple
- speakerways as a layperson, not a
- speakerpaid professional, just
- speakeras a layperson.
- speakerHe was the constitutional law
- speakerprofessor at Rutgers
- speakerUniversity in New Jersey
- speakerand and
- speakerhe came out and it just stunned
- speakerthe Task Force. He had already told me.
- speakerBut that was just something I
- speakercarefully kept secret
- speakerin respect to Willard Heckel.
- speakerIn fact, when I wrote about it in my
- speakerfirst book, I
- speakercalled him to see if it was OK
- speakerbecause that had been revealed
- speakerby a conservative member of the
- speakerTask Force
- speakerlong ago.
- speakerBut before I put it in a book, I
- speakerwanted to make sure that he was OK
- speakerwith me describing
- speakerthis moment in the Task
- speakerForce and I think that changed
- speakera lot of hearts and minds,
- speakeropened a lot of people's
- speakerhearts to the
- speakerfact that gay
- speakerpeople have been serving in
- speakerthe Presbyterian Church for
- speakerprobably centuries.
- speakerAnd so
- speakerthat that was that was a significant
- speakermoment. And and after
- speakerthat, Virginia West Davidson, who
- speakerwas an excellent chair of the task
- speakerforce, said,
- speakerLet's take a little break and you
- speakercan.
- speakerSorry. Telling
- speakerthe Task Force members that
- speakerthey could express their feelings
- speakerfor for Willard
- speakerduring that break, and so many
- speakerpeople went up and hugged him
- speakerand including many people who
- speakersome people who would vote
- speakeragainst the
- speakerfull welcome of LGBT people.
- speakerSo it was a very moving
- speakersession of our
- speakerTask Force.
- speakerSo that's two memorable
- speakermoments. There were others as, of
- speakercourse, but that's
- speakertwo to remember.
- speakerDefinitely.
- speakerSo can you talk about the Task
- speakerForce's preparations
- speakerleading up to the 1978
- speakerGeneral Assembly?
- speakerWell, we were charged with a study
- speakerof homosexual, of ordination,
- speakerparticularly as it related to
- speakerhomosexuality.
- speakerSo it gave us a chance to really
- speakertalk about what is ordination, what
- speakerdoes it mean?
- speakerCowan said
- speakerthat
- speakerthe morality
- speakerof the officiant did not affect
- speakerthe value or
- speakerthe sacredness of the sacrament.
- speakerAnd so that
- speakerwas that's one of the
- speakerissues that we talked about.
- speakerWhat is ordination mean?
- speakerDoes it confirm confer
- speakersome kind of approval
- speakerof of the person being
- speakerordained? Does it give them
- speakersome magical authority
- speakerto perform the sacraments
- speakeror to preach in pulpits?
- speakerSo we talked about that and we
- speakertalked about sexuality and
- speakerwe had
- speakerthe Task Force had a
- speakervariety of people who were experts
- speakerin their own fields, biblical
- speakerscholarship,
- speakersexuality,
- speakermedical
- speakerpeople, and so.
- speakerSo we talked
- speakeramongst ourselves, but we also
- speakerconsulted with a variety
- speakerof what you considered
- speakerexperts in the field, like Dr.
- speakerMasters of Masters and Johnson
- speakerand
- speakerthe Joseph Fletcher,
- speakerwho wrote a book called Situation
- speakerEthics, talked about situation
- speakerethics and
- speakerand others who
- speakerwere known in their fields,
- speakeras well as the people on our own
- speakerTask Force. And so we we studied,
- speakerwe were to lead the church in a
- speakerstudy, so we felt like we
- speakerhad to study all
- speakerof the dimensions of this
- speakerquestion of the ordaining
- speakerof what became known as
- speakeravowed practicing homosexuals,
- speakerwhich language I objected to.
- speakerAnd that's why it
- speakerbecame changed.
- speakerIt was changed to self-affirming
- speakerpracticing homosexuals.
- speakerBill Silver, who was the candidate
- speakerof New York City Presbytery who
- speakerbrought this issue to
- speakerthe denomination, well it was
- speakeractually his presbytery that did
- speakerbecause they didn't want to go out
- speakeron a limb and ordain him
- speakerif the denomination
- speakerwasn't going to support their
- speakerchoice.
- speakerBut he objected
- speakerto the word practicing because he
- speakerfelt like he was an accomplished
- speakerhomosexual, having been in a
- speakerrelationship for five years.
- speakerHe had a great sense of humor.
- speakerAnd so
- speakeranyway, so we we
- speakerdid that and then we as part of
- speakerour work, we had four regional
- speakerhearings to
- speakerlisten to Presbyterians on
- speakerthe subject.
- speakerAnd so we did that
- speakerin four different cities around
- speakerthe country and
- speakerwe had
- speakerdozens and dozens of Presbyterians
- speakerwho came and voiced their views.
- speakerMost were negative and most were.
- speakerThe negative ones were organized by
- speakerchurches that were particularly
- speakeropposed to us
- speakerdealing with sexuality, period,
- speakerlet alone homosexuality. So
- speakerthat was interesting.
- speakerAnd then we were to
- speakeroffer educational
- speakermaterials to the denomination.
- speakerAnd so we put out two packets
- speakerof materials that
- speakercould be used by presbyteries
- speakerand congregations in studying this
- speakerissue.
- speakerOf course, there was great
- speakerresistance to studying this issue,
- speakeras we see even today
- speakerin the
- speakerlegislators opposing
- speakerCritical Race Theory.
- speakerYou know, there was this idea that
- speakerif you studied it, you were
- speakerapproving it. And in fact,
- speakerthat was not necessarily the case.
- speakerBut it is true that
- speakereducation did and
- speakerdoes change people's minds
- speakerabout issues and about people.
- speakerAnd so and that's what education
- speakeris about.
- speakerAnd so,
- speakerso anyway, there were people
- speakerwho objected to the very existence
- speakerof the Task Force, calling
- speakerus an abomination.
- speakerSo it was the
- speakerTask Force got a taste of what
- speakermany LGBT people
- speakerexperience. Even today,
- speakerpeople just thinking
- speakerthat we are an abomination.
- speakerSo even looking into it, studying
- speakerthe issue was
- speakervery controversial.
- speakerAnd they complained about
- speakerthe forty thousand dollars it cost
- speakerto arrange for the
- speakertask force meetings,
- speakerand that
- speakerwas so little
- speakeramount of money compared to the
- speakergenerous contributions of
- speakerlesbian, gay, bisexual and
- speakertransgender Presbyterians throughout
- speakerthe years, even just throughout the
- speakertwo years of our meeting,
- speakerthat it was
- speakersomehow
- speakerjust, in my view,
- speakerwhat they consider bad stewardship
- speakerwas very good stewardship
- speakerbecause we were recognizing the
- speakervalue of the LGBT
- speakerpeople who had contributed to the
- speakerdenomination over the
- speakeryears.
- speakerSo we were a controversial
- speakergroup, and then we
- speakerfound ourselves going out and
- speakerspeaking in various presbyteries.
- speakerAnd I participated in
- speakerthe first
- speakerwhat was became known as the
- speakerHomosexuality Information
- speakerToday and it was in the Presbytery
- speakerof Seattle.
- speakerAnd really, how it evolved
- speakerwas and this was true of many
- speakerof the members of the
- speakerTask Force. But how this one evolved
- speakerwas they wanted to have this
- speakerso-called healed homosexual,
- speakersomebody who was not practicing,
- speakerand I debate
- speakeron the floor of their
- speakerpresbytery meeting.
- speakerAnd fortunately, that
- speakerevolved into a more
- speakerwell-rounded
- speakereducational forum
- speakerwhere they had people from
- speakervarious
- speakerwith various various expertise
- speakerto come and talk biblically,
- speakerto talk about biological
- speakerand psychological stuff,
- speakeras well as me and this
- speakerhomosexual who was simply
- speakera non-practicing homosexual.
- speakerAnd he and I got along.
- speakerI mean, because I guess I
- speakermy wish was simply
- speakerthat we have choices,
- speakerand his was to
- speakernot practice his sexuality.
- speakerAnd he had no problem with me
- speakerchoosing to practice my
- speakergayness. So
- speakerwe didn't. It didn't quite turn out
- speakerto be the big fight
- speakerbetween the homosexuals that
- speakerthe originators of that
- speakertask of that educational
- speakerexperience had anticipated.
- speakerSo that's what we did, and
- speakerthen we finally prepared a
- speakerfinal paper,
- speakerand Byron Schaffer
- speakerwas chosen as the principal
- speakerwriter of the of the Task
- speakerForce, and he wrote a
- speakergreat paper, a background
- speakerpaper to which we all
- speakersigned all
- speakerthose who became members
- speakerof the minority opposed to
- speakerordination and all those who became
- speakermembers of the majority
- speakersigned on to this background paper
- speakerbecause it simply reported
- speakerwhat we had gathered
- speakerin our own educational
- speakerprocess.
- speakerAnd so
- speakerwe all signed for that.
- speakerAnd actually, when it came to the
- speakerSan Diego Assembly and
- speakerI know I'm getting ahead of us, but
- speakerthe committee dealing with our
- speakerreport knew that if they
- speakerdiscussed the background paper,
- speakerthey'd be there forever.
- speakerSo because the Task Force
- speakerunanimously had agreed
- speakerto this background paper,
- speakerwhich presented all
- speakerthe arguments for and against
- speakerthe full welcome of LGBT people
- speakerand our ordination,
- speakerthey
- speakerdecided not to try.
- speakerIf they tried to discuss that
- speakerat a General Assembly, they'd
- speakerbe here from here to Tuesday
- speakeras one person put it.
- speakerAnd so they decided simply to
- speakertake on the recommendations
- speakerthat came out of the majority,
- speakerwhich was 14 people
- speakerand the minority, which was five
- speakerpeople.
- speakerAnd what's interesting about that
- speakersplit for me
- speakerwas that what I
- speakerheard at the San Diego
- speakerAssembly that adjudicated this,
- speakerthe results of our
- speakerrecommendations,
- speakerthat if the
- speakermajority report had
- speakerhad majority people
- speakerhad had more
- speakerstraight people
- speakeror and more.
- speakerWell, what was the other thing that
- speakerthe more clergy,
- speakerthat no more, I
- speakerforget now.
- speakerThey said somehow it wasn't
- speakerrepresentative.
- speakerBut I what's funny about the
- speakermajority report is that it was
- speakerrepresentative.
- speakerIt was male and female.
- speakerIt was Black and white.
- speakerIt was gay and straight because I
- speakerwas the gay vote,
- speakerand and
- speakerand the people who opposed
- speakerit, the minority were all
- speakerwhite, heterosexual
- speakermale ministers.
- speakerAnd so,
- speakeryou know, in terms of being a
- speakerrepresentative of a diversity of
- speakerPresbyterians, the majority report
- speakerwas
- speakerrepresentative of a diversity,
- speakerwhereas the Minority Report was
- speakerrepresentative of those privileged
- speakerelite
- speakerwhite straight
- speakerclergy.
- speakerAnd so, so anyway,
- speakerI just think that it was an
- speakerinteresting split.
- speakerAnd they were all older of course
- speakertoo, retired at some of them.
- speakerYeah.
- speakerSo is there,
- speakeryeah, is there some way I can,
- speakeranything
- speakerI missed in your question?
- speakerI guess, what do you recall
- speakeraround the moment that
- speakerthe General Assembly adopted
- speakerthe minority statement over the
- speakermajority statement?
- speakerWell, that was something that
- speakerhappened in committee, and
- speakerthen they made that recommendation
- speakerto the full General
- speakerAssembly and
- speakerwe actually were no longer
- speakerdoing our job there.
- speakerWe we were not
- speakernecessarily invited to the
- speakerGeneral Assembly in 1978
- speakerthat made the final decision because
- speakerwe had handed our report over to
- speakerthe Advisory Council on Church and
- speakerSociety, which had made, there
- speakerwere virtually
- speakerno changes to the report.
- speakerAnd then the Advisory Council on
- speakerChurch and Society had handed
- speakerit over to
- speakerthe General Assembly meeting
- speakerin San Diego that year.
- speakerAnd
- speakerbut we were nonetheless brought
- speakerto the Assembly to
- speakerhelp interpret our work if
- speakerneeded.
- speakerAnd so we
- speakerdid get a chance to have further
- speakerinput. Many committees
- speakerand task forces of the denomination,
- speakerI'm not allowed that, but because
- speakerthis was such a controversial
- speakerand vital conversation
- speakerfor the denomination, they decided
- speakerto bring us to
- speakerthat General Assembly.
- speakerAnd I got to say just a little side
- speakernote here, because it's a funny
- speakerthing of the.
- speakerThat assembly.
- speakerMy pastor, Janelle says
- speakershe always expects me to cry when I
- speakerrecount these stories,
- speakerbut I
- speakerwas moved by this.
- speakerI was standing in line with
- speakerother people waiting to get
- speakerinto the Presbyterian Women's
- speakerbreakfast one morning at that
- speakerGeneral Assembly.
- speakerAnd Thelma Adair, who I mentioned
- speakerwas the Black moderator, first
- speakerBlack moderator of the Presbyterian
- speakerChurch, who co-appointed
- speakerwith Jean Marshall the
- speakerTask Force on Homosexuality.
- speakerSo she knew who I was.
- speakerShe was in line in front of me.
- speakerAnd then and she just simply turned
- speakerto me.
- speakerShe, sorry.
- speakerShe turned to me and she said
- speakerwhen Black delegates,
- speakerfirst commissioners
- speakerfirst began coming to General
- speakerAssembly, we were
- speakernot allowed to stay in the hotels
- speakerwith the other commissioners.
- speakerWe had to find
- speakerhousing in people's homes
- speakerbecause we
- speakerdidn't have access to the hotels
- speakerthe white people had.
- speakerWell, that placed
- speakerthe whole Gay Movement in
- speakerperspective, I mean, what had always
- speakerinspired me was
- speakerthe Civil Rights Movement that
- speakerlong before I accepted my own
- speakersexuality, I just found
- speakerthe Civil Rights Movement
- speakerinspirational.
- speakerAnd so
- speakerin the LGBT Movement,
- speakermany of us
- speakerwere grateful for what
- speakerthe Civil Rights Movement had done
- speakerfor all of us, not just African
- speakerAmericans, but all of us
- speakerin terms of giving us hope
- speakerthat there can be change
- speakerand welcome both in the
- speakerchurch and also
- speakerin our culture.
- speakerSo
- speakerI was
- speakerbecause of all of this,
- speakerI began by saying that we
- speakerwere at that assembly,
- speakerbut not necessarily a part
- speakerof the assembly, so we didn't have
- speakerchairs on the floor when the
- speakervote took place.
- speakerAnd so
- speakerwe were assigned chairs
- speakerthat were vacated by people
- speakerwho had already done their work at
- speakerthe assembly and had gone home.
- speakerSo we were not together
- speakeras a task force on
- speakerthe floor of the assembly.
- speakerWe were all seated in different
- speakerplaces and I was given the seat of
- speakersomebody who had left
- speakerand I
- speakerwent and sat in it.
- speakerAnd no, no, actually,
- speakerI was going to sit in it.
- speakerBut I found somebody else
- speakersitting in my chair.
- speakerI said, I'm sorry, this is my chair.
- speakerAnd he said,
- speakerNo, I was given this chair,
- speakerand he apparently
- speakerthe person who had left it vacated
- speakerthat chair had said, Oh, you can
- speakerhave my seat on the floor.
- speakerI said, Well, that's not how it's
- speakerworking.
- speakerThe General Assembly decides who
- speakersits where and.
- speakerAnd so I
- speakerI said I
- speakerwould really like to sit down.
- speakerAnd he said to me,
- speakerhe stormed off, saying, No
- speakerwonder you were such
- speakertrouble to the Task Force,
- speakeras if I had done something awful
- speakerto the Task Force and
- speakernow was doing something awful to
- speakerhim, displacing him.
- speakerI didn't want to displace him.
- speakerI was told to sit there and
- speakerit was an
- speakereye opening experience for me
- speakerbecause I was I was taken aback
- speakerand I was still giving authority to
- speakerthis white, older male
- speakerclergy that
- speakerhe didn't deserve.
- speakerHe didn't deserve to displace me
- speakeror any member of the Task Force.
- speakerAnd so but I,
- speakeryou know, I still so
- speakerwanted acceptance
- speakerthat I was
- speakerjust embarrassed
- speakerby the whole scene.
- speakerWhat was interesting, too, was
- speakerthat at that assembly, there was a
- speakermovement afoot to have me speak
- speakerto the
- speakerGeneral Assembly as
- speakerif I had anything I could say could
- speakerchange their minds from
- speakeror derail them from a
- speakervery strong anti-gay
- speakerfeeling that permeated that
- speakerassembly.
- speakerBut how it
- speakertransformed was that,
- speakerwell, you know, he gave such a nice
- speakerprayer at his presbytery meeting
- speakerwhen he was disenfranchised
- speakeras a candidate for ordination.
- speakerWhy don't you ask him to pray at
- speakerthe end of this?
- speakerWell, that made
- speakerits way up through the the
- speakerlevels of the General
- speakerAssembly and
- speakerand finally, they said, well,
- speakeryes, but we need to have somebody on
- speakerthe other side also offering prayer.
- speakerAs if these prayers would be in
- speakercompetition.
- speakerSo they asked Richard Loveless,
- speakerwho was a professor
- speakerat Gordon Conwell, a conservative
- speakerseminary in Boston, who also served
- speakeron the Task Force.
- speakerAnd he and I got along, but we just
- speakertotally disagreed with each other.
- speakerAnd so they asked him to give
- speakerwhat I call I consider a rebuttal
- speakerprayer because during my prayer,
- speakerwhich I carefully was writing out
- speakerwhile they were discussing
- speakerour task force report because I
- speakerdidn't have any other time to do it,
- speakerso I was writing it out.
- speakerAnd and
- speakerI felt like this was probably going
- speakerto be the most important prayer
- speakerI ever offered because it was a
- speakerchance to educate people.
- speakerOne of those preaching prayers, you
- speakerknow? And so
- speakerthe what I noticed
- speakerout of the corner of my eye as I was
- speakerreading my my prayer
- speakerwas Richard Loveless was taking
- speakerdown notes.
- speakerSo for his rebuttal points
- speakerin his own prayer, which followed
- speakermine.
- speakerSo that's the way we ended it
- speakerwith prayer from me and
- speakerfrom Richard Loveless and
- speakerand then those of us
- speakerwho were championing
- speakergay rights at that
- speakerassembly got together
- speakerin a hotel suite somebody
- speakerhad and we
- speakercelebrated.
- speakerIt seems odd, but
- speakeryou know, we lost,
- speakerbut we celebrated because this was a
- speakerbeginning. And as it turned out, the
- speakerbeginning of
- speakersome greater acceptance
- speakeron the part of the Presbyterian
- speakerChurch. The Presbyterian Church
- speakerisn't totally there yet
- speakerin terms of full acceptance, but
- speakergreater acceptance.
- speakerAnd we we knew
- speakerthat this was just one battle in
- speakera long
- speakermovement.
- speakerAnd Bill Silver,
- speakerwho is an artist in his he had been
- speakercalled to a an art ministry
- speakerat a church in Manhattan.
- speakerMade us little
- speakermedals and
- speakerfor
- speakerrevealing of their of our own
- speakeridiosyncrasies, I forget what mine
- speakerwas, but it was something about
- speakerbeing very optimistic.
- speakerBut it was.
- speakerThat's what we did. We we celebrated
- speakerand we we cried.
- speakerAnd at the time,
- speakerwe didn't know
- speakeranything about AIDS
- speakerand didn't know that so many
- speakerpeople would
- speakernever live to see the day
- speakerwhen the Presbyterian Church
- speakerfully welcomed us.
- speakerAnd in fact, the AIDS HIV
- speakercrisis, I think really opened
- speakerthe doors of many churches
- speakerbecause they were willing
- speakerto be compassionate.
- speakerNot all of them, of course, but
- speakermany of them so, so
- speakerso that was how we ended.
- speakerAnd then, I'm
- speakerjumping on to your next question,
- speakerwhat happened after that?
- speakerWell, that week, Disneyland
- speakerhad its first gay night at
- speakerDisneyland, and I
- speakerhad organized a group.
- speakerSome of them were at the assembly
- speakerand some from the church I was
- speakerserving, West
- speakerHollywood Presbyterian Church.
- speakerWe went to gay night Disneyland
- speakerand it was just a
- speakergreat cure
- speakerfor what ailed us in terms
- speakerof the the
- speakerGeneral Assembly in San Diego
- speakerjust a week or two
- speakerprior to that.
- speakerAnd of course, Disneyland is in
- speakerAnaheim, which is just south
- speakerof L.A.
- speakerand north of San Diego.
- speakerAnd so we had a great time.
- speakerIt was the first, as I say,
- speakerfirst gay night at Disneyland.
- speakerIt wasn't at the time when Disney
- speakerwas accepting of LGBT
- speakerpeople, but what had happened was
- speakerthe a tavern guild
- speakerhad applied for a private
- speakerparty, and
- speakerDisneyland did not realize the
- speakertavern guild was a guild, a
- speakerguild
- speakerof gay taverns.
- speakerAnd once they had signed the
- speakercontract, they couldn't back out,
- speakerthough they wanted to.
- speakerBut we had a great deal of fun.
- speakerAnd now gay nights at Disneyland
- speakerand Disney World are commonplace.
- speakerSo
- speakerthanks be to God, the world changes.
- speakerSo I guess that leads us into
- speakeryour time with the Lazarus Project.
- speakerCan you talk a little bit about
- speakerthat?
- speakerSure.
- speakerWell, the.
- speakerI was on the Task Force
- speakerand Ross Greek, who was pastor
- speakerof West Hollywood Presbyterian
- speakerChurch, who had been involved in all
- speakerkinds of innovative ministries
- speakerand had already done ministries
- speakerwithin the gay community because
- speakerWest Hollywood was
- speakerheavily gay.
- speakerAnd so he had done
- speakerministry already
- speakerand actually had hired staff
- speakerwho did some of the work
- speakerto, his intent was
- speakerto welcome
- speakerLGBT people into that
- speakercongregation.
- speakerAnd he
- speakerand I met.
- speakerI had been trying to meet
- speakerhim because I had heard about his
- speakerwork.
- speakerAnd so I'd been trying to meet
- speakerhim, but never could catch him in
- speakerthe office because he really didn't
- speakerbelieve that ministry happened in
- speakerthe office. And so he wasn't there
- speakerand they didn't have a church
- speakersecretary or anybody who could take
- speakerthe calls. And I, I don't know if
- speakervoicemail or
- speakervoice answering devices
- speakerwere even available then.
- speakerAnd so
- speakerfinally, he called me and I was just
- speakerabout to return for my final year
- speakerin seminary, which incidentally,
- speakerwas the second year
- speakerof my serving on the Task
- speakerForce. So. So
- speakeranyway, so I went in to meet with
- speakerhim into his
- speakeroffice. And he
- speakersaid his question was
- speakerbasically, How do
- speakeryou church gays?
- speakerTo be blunt, that's kind of the
- speakerway he put it, I think.
- speakerHow do you make them feel welcome
- speakerin a congregation
- speakerand let them know that this is also
- speakertheir church?
- speakerAnd I had done
- speakeran internship at the Christian
- speakerAssociation working
- speakerwith gay and lesbian students.
- speakerAnd so I
- speakerbut I said to him,
- speakerthat wasn't part of my
- speakerjob description.
- speakerI was just supposed to assist them
- speakerspiritually. And and
- speakerso but I said I would
- speakerlove to have an opportunity to
- speakerdo that kind of work, and so
- speakerwe.
- speakerWe met with the session of
- speakerthat church and then later
- speakerwith the Social and Ecumenical
- speakerConcerns Commission of the Synod
- speakerof Southern California I think or some
- speakercomparable thing in the presbytery.
- speakerAnyway, I wrote the original
- speakerproposal for Lazarus Project
- speakerat their request.
- speakerAnd that's a no no.
- speakerYou're not supposed to then apply
- speakerfor a job that you wrote the
- speakerproposal for, but there weren't many
- speakerof us around.
- speakerSo.
- speakerSo I did.
- speakerThey did want me to apply for the
- speakerjob and
- speakerand it went through I jumped
- speakerthrough all the hoops required in
- speakerPresbyterian land
- speakerto get approval, financial
- speakerapproval, financial
- speakerendorsement, as well as,
- speakeryou know, spiritual
- speakerecclesiastical endorsement
- speakerand.
- speakerAnd so it did when it
- speakerwas finally funded, which it wasn't
- speakerwhen I was hired, actually,
- speakerwhen it was fully funded, it was
- speakerfunded on multiple levels.
- speakerThe congregation committed money
- speakerto it, the presbytery, the Synod
- speakerof Southern California and Hawaii
- speakerand the
- speakerGeneral Assembly
- speakercommittee having to do with mission
- speakerdevelopment.
- speakerAnd they gave
- speakermoney to this and was a
- speakerthree year
- speakerfunded project.
- speakerAnd then its was supposed to solicit
- speakerits own funds ultimately.
- speakerAnd so it did, and
- speakerit lasted 30 years.
- speakerI was there for the first ten
- speakerand then two
- speakerother directors followed
- speakerme.
- speakerOne was a
- speakerstraight woman
- speakerwho
- speakerwho, let me think, Peg
- speakerBeissert who had been on
- speakerthe candidate's
- speakercommittee of Pacific Presbytery,
- speakerwhen it recommended to the
- speakerPresbytery that it receive me as a
- speakercandidate for ordination and
- speakershe was a great champion and
- speakerbecause she had fought hard
- speakerto be ordained as a woman in the
- speakerPresbyterian Church, in fact she was
- speakerordained in the United Church of
- speakerChrist because at the time that
- speakershe was seeking ordination,
- speakerthe Presbyterians didn't ordain
- speakerwomen, and so she
- speakerwas ordained in the United Church of
- speakerChrist. And then finally, when the
- speakerPresbyterian Church changed its
- speakermind, she went back into
- speakerthe Presbyterian Church and served
- speakerin a variety of roles
- speakerin the denomination.
- speakerShe became the second director,
- speakerand the third was Donn Crail,
- speakerwho was
- speakera Presbyterian pastor and
- speakerand and so he took the reins for
- speakeranother 10 years.
- speakerSo it lasted a good long time
- speakerand well into the period when
- speakerthe denomination
- speakerbegan
- speakeraccepting more and more
- speakerLGBT
- speakerQ members and
- speakerclergy.
- speakerSo
- speakerbut that was
- speakerthe Lazarus Project was slated
- speakerto be a Ministry of Reconciliation.
- speakerIt wasn't just to try to welcome
- speakerLGBT people into that congregation
- speakeror into the denomination,
- speakerbut to educate
- speakerthe Presbyterian Church.
- speakerAnd so we did
- speakersemiannual conferences
- speakerwhere we brought in people like John
- speakerBoswell and
- speakerexperts in the
- speakerfield to talk about,
- speakerpeople like Bernadette Bruton and
- speakera host of people
- speakerwho could help the church understand
- speakerthe relationship between the LGBTQ
- speakercommunity and
- speakerthe church more broadly, not just
- speakerthe Presbyterian Church, and
- speakerthose
- speakergatherings were attended by people
- speakerof multiple denominations
- speakerand I
- speakerthink helped many
- speakerchurches begin to understand
- speakerand help and
- speakerunderstand and welcome LGBT
- speakerpeople.
- speakerAlso, we
- speakerdeveloped what we called
- speakeraffectionately a Lazarus
- speakerRoad Show, which was
- speakera group of us who would
- speakergo and speak to other churches.
- speakerSo this was taking that
- speakereducational component
- speakerand taking it on the road.
- speakerAnd so that we could
- speakeraddress more churches that many
- speakerpeople who would not come to
- speakerany gathering that we hosted
- speakerand we did host it in different
- speakerchurches. We hosted it at
- speakerWest Hollywood Presbyterian
- speakerinitially.
- speakerAnd and so
- speakerthe people for the people who might
- speakernot have a chance to attend
- speakera daylong conference, we could do
- speakerlike an afternoon
- speakerforum for their congregation.
- speakerSo that
- speakerbecame one of our projects.
- speakerWe also started a jail ministry.
- speakerSomebody had found out
- speakerthat gay inmates in the Los Angeles
- speakerCounty Jail were not allowed to go
- speakerto worship services
- speakerby the official chaplains there
- speakerunless they signed a paper
- speakercondemning homosexuality.
- speakerOf course, people
- speakerthat's not really welcoming them.
- speakerAnd so we started doing
- speakerservices with the local
- speakerMetropolitan Community Church in Los
- speakerAngeles at the men's
- speakerjail of the Los
- speakerAngeles County Jail
- speakerand those were weekly services.
- speakerAnd our members
- speakerlay and ordained,
- speakermostly lay at that point,
- speakerled those services.
- speakerSo that was another
- speakerministry we had.
- speakerWe also had a tape ministry
- speakerwhere we taped the experts that came
- speakerto speak to us about
- speakerthe relevant topics of
- speakerreconciling the church and the
- speakerLGBTQ community.
- speakerWe had
- speakerwe audiotaped them
- speakerand and those
- speakertapes were available to anybody
- speakerwho wanted them.
- speakerSo there were many things, and
- speakerRoss was
- speakervery generous
- speakerwith me in terms of the pulpit.
- speakerWe shared equally as
- speakerif we were co-pastors,
- speakerand he preached half the time
- speakerand I preached half the time,
- speakerand I led a weekly Bible study
- speakertoo, that lasted a dozen
- speakeryears.
- speakerWell, let's see,
- speakerit lasted as long as I was there,
- speakerwhich was ten years
- speakerand may have lasted beyond that, I
- speakerdon't recall.
- speakerAnd so.
- speakerSo that
- speakerchurch became
- speakerkind of a first of its kind
- speakerin terms of
- speakerbeing so very welcoming and having
- speakera staff person, full time
- speakerstaff person assigned to working
- speakerwithin the LGBT community.
- speakerIt also meant being involved in the
- speakerpolitics of the LGBT
- speakercommunity and and
- speakergaining changes
- speakerin
- speakerlaws and
- speakerunderstandings in the broader
- speakercommunity. So it was it
- speakerwas very multifaceted.
- speakerIt was a great
- speakeropportunity.
- speakerDefinitely.
- speakerSo that leads us to our next part.
- speakerCould you talk about your early work
- speakerwith Presbyterians for
- speakerLesbian and Gay Concerns?
- speakerWell, it was a very informal
- speakergroup.
- speakerWe, David
- speakerSindt was is the founder,
- speakerwas the.
- speakerWell, he's passed on now, but
- speakerhe was the founder of
- speakerthe group, the organization.
- speakerAnd it actually began when he
- speakersent letters to those of us who were
- speakerwhom he was
- speakerinformed were interested in this,
- speakerin forming a
- speakercaucus within the Presbyterian
- speakerChurch for LGBTQ
- speakerconcerns.
- speakerAnd
- speakerour first presence
- speakerwas through him at the.
- speakerIt may have been the Louisville
- speakerAssembly in,
- speakeranyway, so it was all him,
- speakerjust him, and he actually held up
- speakera sign said, Is anybody gay
- speakerout there?
- speakerI didn't go to that assembly because
- speakerI was a seminary student and I
- speakerdidn't have the resources to go
- speakerto assemblies,
- speakerbut I did
- speakerfinally.
- speakerWell, I began participating on a
- speakerlocal level.
- speakerI remember my very first meeting
- speakerof the organization was in New
- speakerYork City at Bill Silver's
- speakerapartment.
- speakerHe and his partner hosted
- speakerus, and that was the first time I
- speakermet Bill Silver
- speakerand and then I started.
- speakerI became involved in
- speakerin the organization, and
- speakerI said, as I said, it was really
- speakerkind of informal and we needed
- speakerpeople to be officers.
- speakerAnd so I became
- speakera an officer
- speakerof the of the
- speakerof the organization.
- speakerMeanwhile, the guy who edited
- speakerour newsletter, who was in the
- speakercloset, nice
- speakerguy.
- speakerAnd
- speakerhe was he was
- speakera professionally respected,
- speakerbut he was in the closet and
- speakerpeople didn't know.
- speakerAnd so I can't say what his
- speakerprofession was, but he was
- speakerwell-recognized in his home state.
- speakerAnd but he was had been
- speakerdoing the newsletter for a while
- speakerand he was looking for somebody else
- speakerto take it over.
- speakerAnd he kept putting it out there
- speakerin the newsletter.
- speakerIf anybody would be willing to edit
- speakerthis, this newsletter,
- speakerI would welcome them.
- speakerAnd so I
- speakerwas concerned about the,
- speakerkind of the negative way
- speakerin which the newsletter
- speakerwas reporting events
- speakerin the church
- speakerbecause it was like, this kind of
- speakerwoe is me kind
- speakerof articles and
- speakerand I thought, you know,
- speakerwe we needed to make
- speakerit more optimistic and hopeful.
- speakerAnd so I took him up
- speakeron his offer and
- speakerI said I'd be happy to edit
- speakerthe the newsletter.
- speakerAnd so I did, and I changed
- speakerthe name. It was no longer the
- speakerNewsletter of Presbyterian, well the
- speakername of the organization kept
- speakerchanging to. There was no longer the
- speakerNewsletter of Presbyterians for
- speakerLesbian and Gay Concerns,
- speakerbut it became
- speakerMore Light, which I
- speakerpublished more as a
- speakermagazine than as a
- speakernewsletter.
- speakerAnd it was called More Light
- speakerbecause in
- speaker1976, when the Presbyterians decided
- speakerto study this issue, they quoted
- speakerPastor John Robinson
- speakerin his
- speakerquote to the
- speakerPuritans when they were escaping
- speakerpersecution, which
- speakerbecame a part of the song
- speakerthat we sing in church.
- speakerBut the phrase
- speakerwas that the quote was, God
- speakerhad yet more light
- speakerto break forth from God's word.
- speakerAnd the committee
- speakerdealing
- speakerwith setting up the Task Force had
- speakerused that quote,
- speakerGod has yet more light to bring
- speakerforth through God's word.
- speakerAnd so
- speakerBill Silver had made
- speakera brochure
- speakerhighlighting the work of our
- speakerorganization, which
- speakerhad the cover and the cover
- speakeron the cover of the of the
- speakerthree part
- speakerbrochure.
- speakerIt said Yet More Light.
- speakerAnd so, you know, I was doing
- speakerthis newsletter very
- speakerbasically
- speakerI was, you know, typing it up
- speakerand we were copying it that
- speakerway. And so I simply
- speakercut out the More Light from
- speakerthat brochure and stuck it on
- speakerthe cover of the newsletter.
- speakerAnd then I had
- speakersomebody I had worked with at West
- speakerHollywood Presbyterian, who was a
- speakerpublisher printer who
- speakerprinted our
- speakercopies of the newsletter
- speakerfor the number of years that I
- speakerwas editor
- speakerof the paper.
- speakerAnd my idea was to
- speakerlet the newsletter really
- speakershed more light
- speakerand be more
- speakerof an optimistic
- speakerinstrument of
- speakerthe message of LGBTQ
- speakerpeople in the in
- speakerthe church.
- speakerAnd and then
- speakerwhat happened was congregations.
- speakerWhen the General
- speakerAssembly voted against
- speakerordination, which meant not only
- speakerordination of clergy,
- speakerbut ordination of elders and
- speakerdeacons in local congregations.
- speakerWell there were churches that
- speakeralready had elders
- speakerand deacons serving, including West
- speakerHollywood Presbyterian,
- speakerthose churches
- speakerthat decided to rebel
- speakerand say, No, we're going to go ahead
- speakerand ordain LGBT
- speakerpeople as
- speakerdeacons and as elders.
- speakerAnd so we called those
- speakerMore Light congregations.
- speakerAnd and it was just so
- speakerkind of informally decided on
- speakera train trip among a few of us.
- speakerI'm not even sure
- speakerwho came up with the idea,
- speakerbut it was like four
- speakerof us
- speakergoing between meetings
- speakeron the train between, maybe
- speakerbetween
- speakerPhiladelphia and New York City, but
- speakerit was anyway, that's how
- speakerthey became More Light
- speakercongregations.
- speakerAnd then we had the first More Light
- speakerChurch Conference at West
- speakerHollywood Presbyterian.
- speakerBy that time, I had
- speakerresigned
- speakermy position, well changed my
- speakerposition.
- speakerWell, what had happened at that
- speakerchurch was that the pastor had
- speakerretired, and so
- speakerthe in consultation with the
- speakerpresbytery, with the presbytery exec
- speakerto be exact, they
- speakerdecided to rewrite my job
- speakerdescription. So I was half time
- speakerparish coordinator and half time
- speakerLazarus Director, and we had
- speakera Presbyterian minister worshiping
- speakerwith us who could do communion
- speakerand do the sacraments,
- speakercommunion, baptism and moderate
- speakersession, which were the only things
- speakerI couldn't do in this role because
- speakerI wasn't ordained.
- speakerAnd so
- speakerthe.
- speakerWell, so eventually what happened
- speakerthen was I had been there for 10
- speakeryears and I thought it was
- speakertime to move on.
- speakerAnd
- speakerI resigned initially
- speakerafter seven
- speakeryears of this dual position, well
- speakerfive, four or five years because I
- speakerwas in the originally full time Lazarus
- speakerdirector, and then I became
- speakera
- speakerparish coordinator and Lazarus
- speakerdirector.
- speakerWell, I resigned my part as
- speakera parish coordinator.
- speakerAnd that allowed the church
- speakerto hire a
- speakerfull time pastor.
- speakerAnd that's what happened
- speakerthen. Dan Smith was selected
- speakeras the pastor, new
- speakerpastor of the West Hollywood
- speakerPresbyterian Church,
- speakerand we, he and I
- speakerhosted the first More Light Church
- speakerConference there at West
- speakerHollywood Presbyterian.
- speakerSo that was a very historical
- speakerPresbyterian church, which is
- speakera Presbyterian church no more
- speakerbecause Dan
- speakerSmith got tired
- speakerof fighting with the presbytery when
- speakerhe wanted to do marriages
- speakerof same gender couples,
- speakerwhich by then was permitted
- speakerin the state of
- speakerCalifornia but still not
- speakerpermitted in the Presbyterian
- speakerChurch.
- speakerSo he led
- speakerthe congregation into the
- speakerUnited Church of Christ, and so
- speakeris now West Hollywood,
- speakerWest Hollywood, United Church of
- speakerChrist.
- speakerAnd what's really cool about
- speakerit now is that when he left and
- speakerretired just a couple of years ago,
- speakerthey chose a Black
- speakerlesbian pastor.
- speakerAnd so it just
- speakerit's it's just good news all the way
- speakeraround, and I'm very happy
- speakerfor them. I was a little resistant
- speakerat first because so many of us had
- speakerput so much into the West Hollywood
- speakerPresbyterian to keep it a
- speakerPresbyterian church.
- speakerBut I understood
- speakerthat that congregation was just
- speakertired of fighting with the
- speakerpresbytery.
- speakerThe United Church of Christ, was far
- speakermore open, is far more open
- speakerand welcoming of LGBT
- speakerpeople. And so
- speakertheir polity allowed
- speakerDan and the current pastor
- speakerto
- speakerboth ordain and also to
- speakermarry LGBT
- speakerpeople.
- speakerSo it's a complicated history as you
- speakercan tell.
- speakerDefinitely.
- speakerWell, so
- speakerthe only other thing left, do
- speakeryou have anything else that you want
- speakerto say about this time?
- speakerAny other stories that you want to
- speakershare?
- speakerAnything, really?
- speakerYou know, it's open now.
- speakerYou know, I did initially when I
- speakeryour questions try to jot down a
- speakerfew notes, but I realized that
- speakerit would become another
- speakerbook. So I decided not
- speakerto go with
- speakerthe notes idea, but I
- speakerthink it's pretty much, pretty
- speakermuch covered everything.
- speakerWell, one other thing I did leave
- speakerout and that was my transition
- speakerto the Presbyterian Church was also
- speakeras a result of my,
- speakerI was an English major in college
- speakerat California State University,
- speakerNorthridge, and
- speakerbegan the same year they
- speakerbegan the religious studies
- speakerdepartment. So I began
- speakertaking courses in that, and so I was
- speakera double major, English and
- speakerreligious studies. Well, religious
- speakerstudies, was broadening my horizons
- speakerspiritually in terms
- speakerof understanding religion and the
- speakernature of Christianity and the Bible
- speakerand sacred texts
- speakerand all that.
- speakerSo that really opened me up and
- speakermy first man's religions course.
- speakerThat's what it was called man's
- speakerreligions, was
- speakerI started to say pastored, but
- speakertaught by the
- speakerchair, new chair of the department,
- speakerwho had been asked to do this and
- speakermoved into Cal State Northridge
- speakerfrom his studies at
- speakera law school.
- speakerBut he was a Methodist minister and
- speakerhis name was Dr. Thomas
- speakerLove, which
- speakerI loved the
- speakerappropriateness of that name because
- speakerhe was a very loving man, but
- speakerhe was a very much a
- speakerdoubting Thomas as well.
- speakerI mean, he
- speakerhe could be critical of
- speakerChristianity as
- speakerand could teach it critically
- speakerand of the Bible.
- speakerAnd and that was a very
- speakerhelpful liberating thing for me.
- speakerMy very first course was my very
- speakerfirst semester at Cal State
- speakerNorthridge, and
- speakerI had a four hour break
- speakerafter my man's religions course,
- speakerwhere I was sat under what
- speakerI called my axis mundi, my
- speakercenter of the world,
- speakera tree.
- speakerAnd think about
- speakerwhat I was learning in that class,
- speakerand I was really depressed
- speakerbecause everything I had been
- speakertaught or not everything, but
- speakera lot of what I'd been taught was a
- speakerwhole different notion of
- speakerChristianity as the only true
- speakerreligion.
- speakerAnd and suddenly
- speakerall that was called into question
- speakerby what I was learning.
- speakerWhat I realized was
- speakerthat my
- speakerdepression came from
- speakermy realization
- speakerthat I believe this new material I
- speakerwas being offered, this news
- speakerthat other religions were equally of
- speakervalue and
- speakerand had something
- speakerto offer the world,
- speakerbut me in
- speakerparticular. So I
- speakerjust opened up,
- speakerblossomed spiritually, in
- speakerterms of my welcome
- speakerof different
- speakerviews. And one of the courses I
- speakertook was a, taught
- speakerby Bob Goss.
- speakerAnd he was also
- speakernot to be confused with
- speakerRobert Goss, who's an
- speakerauthor, but he
- speakertaught a course called
- speakerPagan themes
- speakerin contemporary literature.
- speakerAnd he used the term pagan
- speakerpositively, not as a
- speakernegative put down.
- speakerAnd we read
- speakerGarcon, the
- speakerfirst process thinker I
- speakerread.
- speakerWe read Garcon, we
- speakerread Nietzsche, and we read
- speakerKazantzakis.
- speakerAnd the one of the books by
- speakerKazantzakis was Zorba the Greek.
- speakerAnd as I write in Uncommon
- speakerCalling, my first book, Zorba
- speakerthe Greek became a second Bible to
- speakerme because Zorba was
- speakeralive.
- speakerHe was embodied.
- speakerI mean, you know, the funny thing
- speakerabout Christianity is
- speakerit's all about embodiment.
- speakerThe incarnation, Jesus
- speakerwas alive.
- speakerAnd yet I had been taught
- speakerto downplay my bodily
- speakerexperience, my physical
- speakerexperience, the material world,
- speakerin hopes of heaven
- speakerhigh and beyond in some kind of
- speakerspirit realm.
- speakerAnd this book just
- speakercalled out in me the need to be
- speakermy physical self.
- speakerAnd that's what Christianity should
- speakerbe doing.
- speakerAnd that's what the incarnation is
- speakerabout, it's about enlivening
- speakerus to our bodies, understanding
- speakerus of how important
- speakerbodily experience was and that is
- speakerwas one of the conduits for me to
- speakeraccepting my sexuality.
- speakerWas that, hey, you know,
- speakerthis is a good thing.
- speakerGod gave me this.
- speakerGod wanted me to make love.
- speakerGod wanted me to experience
- speakermaking love.
- speakerAnd and so.
- speakerAnd when you then
- speakerreread the scripture as
- speakerI then did.
- speakerFrom that perspective, I realize,
- speakerOh, Jesus was constantly touching
- speakerpeople and he healed that and he
- speakerbrought them into right relationship
- speakerwith God and with
- speakertheir communities.
- speakerAnd. And so he was
- speakera, you know, as we said in those
- speakerdays, touchy
- speakerfeely guy and
- speakerthat had not been part
- speakerof my upbringing,
- speakerunfortunately.
- speakerAnd so the religious
- speakerstudies courses I took opened
- speakerme up to other religions,
- speakerdifferent spiritual perspectives,
- speakerand the importance of the body
- speakerin the material world in
- speakerterms of understanding who God
- speakeris.
- speakerAnd I came to adopt and I also
- speakertook a process theology
- speakercourse and
- speakerand I came to the opinion
- speakerthat, you know, I wasn't
- speakera pantheist, not that the world is
- speakerGod's body, but rather a
- speakerpanentheist, which means
- speakerthat the world
- speakeris in God.
- speakerAnd so that everything we see and
- speakerdo and feel and touch and hear and
- speakersmell is God.
- speakerAnd it didn't deny
- speakerme the God of
- speakerthe Hebrews, or the God of
- speakerthe Christians,
- speakerbut rather it expanded
- speakerthat understanding of God
- speakerto be more inclusive and
- speakerthat inclusiveness included
- speakerme.
- speakerSo
- speakerI'm grateful to the religious
- speakerstudies department at Cal State
- speakerNorthridge that enabled
- speakerme to accept a
- speakernew understanding
- speakerof spirituality and one
- speakerthat could include people like
- speakerme.
- speakerGreat. And I just
- speakerwant to say thank you so much for
- speakerspending the time to do this.
- speakerIf there's anything else you'd like
- speakerto say, go ahead, but
- speakerit's probably a good place to stop.
- speakerYeah, I think that it sounds like
- speakerit does sound like a good
- speakerplace to stop.
- speakerBut Nick, I really appreciate your
- speakerquestions and
- speakerand your listening to me.
- speakerAnd whoever
- speakerends up watching this, I thank you
- speakerfor listening
- speakerto me and
- speakergiving me an opportunity to
- speakerrecord my thoughts.
- speakerOf course. Thank you so much.