Chris Glaser oral history, 2022.

Primary tabs

Download

  • speaker
    All right, let's get started.
  • speaker
    My name is Nick Skaggs, and it's
  • speaker
    March 30th, 2022.
  • speaker
    I'm interviewing Chris Glaser.
  • speaker
    So Chris, can you talk
  • speaker
    a little bit about your early life
  • speaker
    and what led you to the Presbyterian
  • speaker
    Church?
  • speaker
    OK.
  • speaker
    And thanks, Nick, and thanks to the
  • speaker
    Presbyterian Historical Society and
  • speaker
    anybody who listens or watches this
  • speaker
    for your interest in this.
  • speaker
    I was raised as a fundamentalist
  • speaker
    biblical literalist Baptist
  • speaker
    and went to a fundamentalist
  • speaker
    biblical literalist
  • speaker
    elementary school and junior high,
  • speaker
    where my mother also taught first
  • speaker
    grade.
  • speaker
    So that
  • speaker
    was my my background,
  • speaker
    but I was yearning for something
  • speaker
    a little more open and welcoming
  • speaker
    than what I experienced in
  • speaker
    this environment.
  • speaker
    And not only just open
  • speaker
    and welcoming for me because I
  • speaker
    wasn't really willing
  • speaker
    to be welcoming of my sexuality,
  • speaker
    but open
  • speaker
    and welcoming of different kinds
  • speaker
    of people
  • speaker
    and and
  • speaker
    also more open to biblical
  • speaker
    scholarship.
  • speaker
    I think fundamentalists often and
  • speaker
    biblical literalists
  • speaker
    often think that they
  • speaker
    are speaking for the authority
  • speaker
    of scripture when they
  • speaker
    decry biblical scholarship.
  • speaker
    But actually, I think biblical
  • speaker
    scholarship helps you get
  • speaker
    more of the meaning of
  • speaker
    scripture than just reading
  • speaker
    it word for word, literally.
  • speaker
    So that was my background,
  • speaker
    and I
  • speaker
    left the Baptist Church in
  • speaker
    search of a congregation,
  • speaker
    a church that I felt I could serve
  • speaker
    because I felt called to ministry as
  • speaker
    early as junior high and
  • speaker
    eventually ended up in
  • speaker
    the Presbyterian Church.
  • speaker
    I need to do a little segway.
  • speaker
    I came into the Presbyterian Church
  • speaker
    because a couple of friends found
  • speaker
    this progressive
  • speaker
    Presbyterian Church in Van Nuys,
  • speaker
    California and thought
  • speaker
    I would enjoy it
  • speaker
    and brought me to the first
  • speaker
    Sunday service of the new decade
  • speaker
    1970.
  • speaker
    And the young student
  • speaker
    minister, the interim,
  • speaker
    the
  • speaker
    he was a student minister,
  • speaker
    gave a sermon on the last 10 years
  • speaker
    of the Civil Rights Movement and I
  • speaker
    thought, Wow, I'd never heard that
  • speaker
    from the pulpit before.
  • speaker
    And the next week, the old
  • speaker
    minister got up to speak and I
  • speaker
    thought, Oh dear, here it comes.
  • speaker
    And he was even more progressive
  • speaker
    than the young minister was.
  • speaker
    And so that really drew me in,
  • speaker
    and within three months I became a
  • speaker
    Presbyterian.
  • speaker
    I was particularly taken
  • speaker
    with the Confession of 1967,
  • speaker
    which had been recently passed by
  • speaker
    the denomination because it spoke
  • speaker
    about the reconciliation among the
  • speaker
    races. This was during the days of
  • speaker
    the Civil Rights Movement and
  • speaker
    among the races, but also among
  • speaker
    the nations, and this was also
  • speaker
    during the Vietnam War period.
  • speaker
    So both of those were of interest to
  • speaker
    me as something
  • speaker
    appropriate for Christians to be
  • speaker
    involved in and they concerned
  • speaker
    about.
  • speaker
    But yeah, great segway.
  • speaker
    So then once you became
  • speaker
    part of the Presbyterian Church,
  • speaker
    the 1976 General Assembly
  • speaker
    came around and
  • speaker
    the Presbyterian
  • speaker
    Church's Task Force to Study
  • speaker
    Homosexuality was formed
  • speaker
    and you were a member of it,
  • speaker
    the only openly gay member.
  • speaker
    Can you talk about that a little
  • speaker
    bit?
  • speaker
    Sure. And I need to tell another
  • speaker
    segway I'm so sorry I screwing up
  • speaker
    your interview here.
  • speaker
    No, no.
  • speaker
    But you can edit out the the
  • speaker
    interruptions.
  • speaker
    And let me just say that when I was
  • speaker
    at this Presbyterian Church, I was
  • speaker
    asked by one
  • speaker
    of the student clergy
  • speaker
    to participate in leading
  • speaker
    a sexuality
  • speaker
    class for the young people of the
  • speaker
    church, and I hardly knew
  • speaker
    enough about sexuality to do that.
  • speaker
    But I was impressed that this
  • speaker
    congregation was interested in
  • speaker
    doing some talk and discussion
  • speaker
    about sexuality, and that began to
  • speaker
    invite me to come forward
  • speaker
    with my own sexuality and.
  • speaker
    And in fact,
  • speaker
    we had a weekly forum
  • speaker
    after service every Sunday
  • speaker
    where we talked about issues
  • speaker
    and including political issues.
  • speaker
    And so I was on the
  • speaker
    forum committee and recommended that
  • speaker
    we hear from this
  • speaker
    representatives from this new
  • speaker
    church that later became a
  • speaker
    denomination that was formed
  • speaker
    in Los Angeles Metropolitan
  • speaker
    Community Church.
  • speaker
    And so we had two representatives
  • speaker
    come and speak, and there was some
  • speaker
    controversy about it.
  • speaker
    People were afraid people wouldn't
  • speaker
    come to the forum.
  • speaker
    Normally, they attracted 40
  • speaker
    people after church on Sunday
  • speaker
    to listen to whatever speaker
  • speaker
    or speakers we had.
  • speaker
    And so.
  • speaker
    They were afraid that attendance
  • speaker
    would be down, but then
  • speaker
    went ahead with it.
  • speaker
    And 80 people came, so
  • speaker
    it was twice the number of people
  • speaker
    that normally attended these forums
  • speaker
    that were interested in this
  • speaker
    church that was formed around
  • speaker
    welcoming LGBT
  • speaker
    people and that gave
  • speaker
    helped me to take heart.
  • speaker
    And I began to talk with the
  • speaker
    minister about
  • speaker
    my own sexuality and received
  • speaker
    support, and I
  • speaker
    had decided to go into
  • speaker
    the ministry, as I said.
  • speaker
    And so I came under care of the
  • speaker
    Presbytery San Fernando
  • speaker
    and their candidate's committee.
  • speaker
    And so I was a candidate
  • speaker
    for ordination at the time
  • speaker
    that the
  • speaker
    Task Force was
  • speaker
    formed.
  • speaker
    I was not out
  • speaker
    to the committee at first, but I did
  • speaker
    come out and they were not sure,
  • speaker
    as one committee member said,
  • speaker
    I had a chance of a snowball
  • speaker
    in hell of being
  • speaker
    ordained by that presbytery.
  • speaker
    But I, meanwhile,
  • speaker
    had served as a
  • speaker
    campus minister as
  • speaker
    an intern at the Christian
  • speaker
    Association, University of
  • speaker
    Pennsylvania, and that I served that
  • speaker
    from the fall of 75 to the summer
  • speaker
    of 76.
  • speaker
    And it was during that time that
  • speaker
    when I went to the Baltimore
  • speaker
    General Assembly, that was in
  • speaker
    Philadelphia, so
  • speaker
    the that I served
  • speaker
    in this capacity.
  • speaker
    But it was
  • speaker
    the Baltimore General Assembly,
  • speaker
    where they were debating for
  • speaker
    the first time openly
  • speaker
    gay candidates for ministry.
  • speaker
    And I participated as a lobbyist.
  • speaker
    I had never been to a General
  • speaker
    Assembly before and Bill
  • speaker
    Silver, who was the candidate
  • speaker
    in question in fact from New York
  • speaker
    City Presbytery, and
  • speaker
    I worked the room.
  • speaker
    We worked with the committee dealing
  • speaker
    with this, this
  • speaker
    overture seeking guidance from New
  • speaker
    York City Presbytery, and
  • speaker
    and also worked alongside Jean
  • speaker
    Marshall, who was chair of the
  • speaker
    Advisory Committee on Church
  • speaker
    and Society.
  • speaker
    And it was eventually
  • speaker
    she and Thelma Adair,
  • speaker
    I believe the first Black
  • speaker
    woman elected as Moderator
  • speaker
    of a General Assembly, who appointed
  • speaker
    the Task Force.
  • speaker
    And and so
  • speaker
    I had gotten to know
  • speaker
    Jean and and really to know Thelma.
  • speaker
    But they subsequently,
  • speaker
    when the Task Force was
  • speaker
    proposed,
  • speaker
    included my name, I
  • speaker
    had been nominated by someone
  • speaker
    to serve as the
  • speaker
    token openly gay
  • speaker
    person.
  • speaker
    And at the time, I said, You should
  • speaker
    have a lesbian too, I mean.
  • speaker
    But they they thought
  • speaker
    they were lucky to have one openly
  • speaker
    gay person on
  • speaker
    this Task Force.
  • speaker
    And so
  • speaker
    that's how things
  • speaker
    transpired.
  • speaker
    And was there a part of the question
  • speaker
    I didn't get to?
  • speaker
    No, that's great.
  • speaker
    Any moments
  • speaker
    on the Task Force between 1976
  • speaker
    and 1978 that stand out to
  • speaker
    you, that stay with you
  • speaker
    while you were doing the work?
  • speaker
    There are many moments, but I
  • speaker
    can just mention two,
  • speaker
    you know, the problem with asking
  • speaker
    people about their memories.
  • speaker
    Lillian Hellman famously said
  • speaker
    the longest sentence in the world
  • speaker
    begins with, I remember.
  • speaker
    So I have much
  • speaker
    to say about all of
  • speaker
    this. But since
  • speaker
    I had the questions in advance, I
  • speaker
    kind of thought of two, that I
  • speaker
    wanted to talk about.
  • speaker
    And one was when
  • speaker
    the kind of the crux of the division
  • speaker
    of the Task Force became apparent.
  • speaker
    And that was
  • speaker
    Don Williams, who was a conservative
  • speaker
    member of the Task Force,
  • speaker
    really was
  • speaker
    objecting to our theology,
  • speaker
    and it was
  • speaker
    George Edwards who was a professor.
  • speaker
    I think professor of New Testament,
  • speaker
    actually at
  • speaker
    Louisville Presbyterian Seminary.
  • speaker
    Don was actually at Fuller
  • speaker
    Seminary, so a more conservative
  • speaker
    seminary, who
  • speaker
    got into this really
  • speaker
    dramatic confrontation
  • speaker
    where George Edwards said to
  • speaker
    Don Williams, You know,
  • speaker
    I know your God, your
  • speaker
    God is the one who demands every
  • speaker
    drop of Christ's blood be spilled
  • speaker
    from the cross before
  • speaker
    he will forgive anybody
  • speaker
    of anything.
  • speaker
    And it was
  • speaker
    it was quite stunning
  • speaker
    conversation that they had.
  • speaker
    And that was, I think, though
  • speaker
    crucial
  • speaker
    under
  • speaker
    a difference between those
  • speaker
    who were more open
  • speaker
    to welcoming LGBT people
  • speaker
    than those who were not,
  • speaker
    that they had
  • speaker
    a a different theology,
  • speaker
    prompting them to their position.
  • speaker
    So that was one one memory,
  • speaker
    and the other memory was when I
  • speaker
    had a bad time with my presbytery.
  • speaker
    I had
  • speaker
    to transfer from Presbytery of San
  • speaker
    Fernando to
  • speaker
    Pacific Presbytery
  • speaker
    because Presbytery of San
  • speaker
    Fernando would not let me accept
  • speaker
    a job, and this happened mid
  • speaker
    in the middle of the Task Force's
  • speaker
    work,
  • speaker
    would not let me accept a job at
  • speaker
    another church in another presbytery
  • speaker
    that
  • speaker
    included the welcome of LGBT
  • speaker
    people.
  • speaker
    And so I
  • speaker
    we had our kind of
  • speaker
    watershed vote
  • speaker
    about a year or so into
  • speaker
    our meetings, and
  • speaker
    we each came talked about where
  • speaker
    we came down.
  • speaker
    And since it had just happened, what
  • speaker
    happened to me, what I just
  • speaker
    described, that's what
  • speaker
    I spoke about.
  • speaker
    And it so moved
  • speaker
    another member of the Task
  • speaker
    Force who was a closeted
  • speaker
    gay man who had
  • speaker
    served as
  • speaker
    Moderator of the General Assembly.
  • speaker
    I can tell you many wonderful
  • speaker
    stories about him, but I won't,
  • speaker
    to come out and say
  • speaker
    that he too was gay and
  • speaker
    he had served the church in multiple
  • speaker
    ways as a layperson, not a
  • speaker
    paid professional, just
  • speaker
    as a layperson.
  • speaker
    He was the constitutional law
  • speaker
    professor at Rutgers
  • speaker
    University in New Jersey
  • speaker
    and and
  • speaker
    he came out and it just stunned
  • speaker
    the Task Force. He had already told me.
  • speaker
    But that was just something I
  • speaker
    carefully kept secret
  • speaker
    in respect to Willard Heckel.
  • speaker
    In fact, when I wrote about it in my
  • speaker
    first book, I
  • speaker
    called him to see if it was OK
  • speaker
    because that had been revealed
  • speaker
    by a conservative member of the
  • speaker
    Task Force
  • speaker
    long ago.
  • speaker
    But before I put it in a book, I
  • speaker
    wanted to make sure that he was OK
  • speaker
    with me describing
  • speaker
    this moment in the Task
  • speaker
    Force and I think that changed
  • speaker
    a lot of hearts and minds,
  • speaker
    opened a lot of people's
  • speaker
    hearts to the
  • speaker
    fact that gay
  • speaker
    people have been serving in
  • speaker
    the Presbyterian Church for
  • speaker
    probably centuries.
  • speaker
    And so
  • speaker
    that that was that was a significant
  • speaker
    moment. And and after
  • speaker
    that, Virginia West Davidson, who
  • speaker
    was an excellent chair of the task
  • speaker
    force, said,
  • speaker
    Let's take a little break and you
  • speaker
    can.
  • speaker
    Sorry. Telling
  • speaker
    the Task Force members that
  • speaker
    they could express their feelings
  • speaker
    for for Willard
  • speaker
    during that break, and so many
  • speaker
    people went up and hugged him
  • speaker
    and including many people who
  • speaker
    some people who would vote
  • speaker
    against the
  • speaker
    full welcome of LGBT people.
  • speaker
    So it was a very moving
  • speaker
    session of our
  • speaker
    Task Force.
  • speaker
    So that's two memorable
  • speaker
    moments. There were others as, of
  • speaker
    course, but that's
  • speaker
    two to remember.
  • speaker
    Definitely.
  • speaker
    So can you talk about the Task
  • speaker
    Force's preparations
  • speaker
    leading up to the 1978
  • speaker
    General Assembly?
  • speaker
    Well, we were charged with a study
  • speaker
    of homosexual, of ordination,
  • speaker
    particularly as it related to
  • speaker
    homosexuality.
  • speaker
    So it gave us a chance to really
  • speaker
    talk about what is ordination, what
  • speaker
    does it mean?
  • speaker
    Cowan said
  • speaker
    that
  • speaker
    the morality
  • speaker
    of the officiant did not affect
  • speaker
    the value or
  • speaker
    the sacredness of the sacrament.
  • speaker
    And so that
  • speaker
    was that's one of the
  • speaker
    issues that we talked about.
  • speaker
    What is ordination mean?
  • speaker
    Does it confirm confer
  • speaker
    some kind of approval
  • speaker
    of of the person being
  • speaker
    ordained? Does it give them
  • speaker
    some magical authority
  • speaker
    to perform the sacraments
  • speaker
    or to preach in pulpits?
  • speaker
    So we talked about that and we
  • speaker
    talked about sexuality and
  • speaker
    we had
  • speaker
    the Task Force had a
  • speaker
    variety of people who were experts
  • speaker
    in their own fields, biblical
  • speaker
    scholarship,
  • speaker
    sexuality,
  • speaker
    medical
  • speaker
    people, and so.
  • speaker
    So we talked
  • speaker
    amongst ourselves, but we also
  • speaker
    consulted with a variety
  • speaker
    of what you considered
  • speaker
    experts in the field, like Dr.
  • speaker
    Masters of Masters and Johnson
  • speaker
    and
  • speaker
    the Joseph Fletcher,
  • speaker
    who wrote a book called Situation
  • speaker
    Ethics, talked about situation
  • speaker
    ethics and
  • speaker
    and others who
  • speaker
    were known in their fields,
  • speaker
    as well as the people on our own
  • speaker
    Task Force. And so we we studied,
  • speaker
    we were to lead the church in a
  • speaker
    study, so we felt like we
  • speaker
    had to study all
  • speaker
    of the dimensions of this
  • speaker
    question of the ordaining
  • speaker
    of what became known as
  • speaker
    avowed practicing homosexuals,
  • speaker
    which language I objected to.
  • speaker
    And that's why it
  • speaker
    became changed.
  • speaker
    It was changed to self-affirming
  • speaker
    practicing homosexuals.
  • speaker
    Bill Silver, who was the candidate
  • speaker
    of New York City Presbytery who
  • speaker
    brought this issue to
  • speaker
    the denomination, well it was
  • speaker
    actually his presbytery that did
  • speaker
    because they didn't want to go out
  • speaker
    on a limb and ordain him
  • speaker
    if the denomination
  • speaker
    wasn't going to support their
  • speaker
    choice.
  • speaker
    But he objected
  • speaker
    to the word practicing because he
  • speaker
    felt like he was an accomplished
  • speaker
    homosexual, having been in a
  • speaker
    relationship for five years.
  • speaker
    He had a great sense of humor.
  • speaker
    And so
  • speaker
    anyway, so we we
  • speaker
    did that and then we as part of
  • speaker
    our work, we had four regional
  • speaker
    hearings to
  • speaker
    listen to Presbyterians on
  • speaker
    the subject.
  • speaker
    And so we did that
  • speaker
    in four different cities around
  • speaker
    the country and
  • speaker
    we had
  • speaker
    dozens and dozens of Presbyterians
  • speaker
    who came and voiced their views.
  • speaker
    Most were negative and most were.
  • speaker
    The negative ones were organized by
  • speaker
    churches that were particularly
  • speaker
    opposed to us
  • speaker
    dealing with sexuality, period,
  • speaker
    let alone homosexuality. So
  • speaker
    that was interesting.
  • speaker
    And then we were to
  • speaker
    offer educational
  • speaker
    materials to the denomination.
  • speaker
    And so we put out two packets
  • speaker
    of materials that
  • speaker
    could be used by presbyteries
  • speaker
    and congregations in studying this
  • speaker
    issue.
  • speaker
    Of course, there was great
  • speaker
    resistance to studying this issue,
  • speaker
    as we see even today
  • speaker
    in the
  • speaker
    legislators opposing
  • speaker
    Critical Race Theory.
  • speaker
    You know, there was this idea that
  • speaker
    if you studied it, you were
  • speaker
    approving it. And in fact,
  • speaker
    that was not necessarily the case.
  • speaker
    But it is true that
  • speaker
    education did and
  • speaker
    does change people's minds
  • speaker
    about issues and about people.
  • speaker
    And so and that's what education
  • speaker
    is about.
  • speaker
    And so,
  • speaker
    so anyway, there were people
  • speaker
    who objected to the very existence
  • speaker
    of the Task Force, calling
  • speaker
    us an abomination.
  • speaker
    So it was the
  • speaker
    Task Force got a taste of what
  • speaker
    many LGBT people
  • speaker
    experience. Even today,
  • speaker
    people just thinking
  • speaker
    that we are an abomination.
  • speaker
    So even looking into it, studying
  • speaker
    the issue was
  • speaker
    very controversial.
  • speaker
    And they complained about
  • speaker
    the forty thousand dollars it cost
  • speaker
    to arrange for the
  • speaker
    task force meetings,
  • speaker
    and that
  • speaker
    was so little
  • speaker
    amount of money compared to the
  • speaker
    generous contributions of
  • speaker
    lesbian, gay, bisexual and
  • speaker
    transgender Presbyterians throughout
  • speaker
    the years, even just throughout the
  • speaker
    two years of our meeting,
  • speaker
    that it was
  • speaker
    somehow
  • speaker
    just, in my view,
  • speaker
    what they consider bad stewardship
  • speaker
    was very good stewardship
  • speaker
    because we were recognizing the
  • speaker
    value of the LGBT
  • speaker
    people who had contributed to the
  • speaker
    denomination over the
  • speaker
    years.
  • speaker
    So we were a controversial
  • speaker
    group, and then we
  • speaker
    found ourselves going out and
  • speaker
    speaking in various presbyteries.
  • speaker
    And I participated in
  • speaker
    the first
  • speaker
    what was became known as the
  • speaker
    Homosexuality Information
  • speaker
    Today and it was in the Presbytery
  • speaker
    of Seattle.
  • speaker
    And really, how it evolved
  • speaker
    was and this was true of many
  • speaker
    of the members of the
  • speaker
    Task Force. But how this one evolved
  • speaker
    was they wanted to have this
  • speaker
    so-called healed homosexual,
  • speaker
    somebody who was not practicing,
  • speaker
    and I debate
  • speaker
    on the floor of their
  • speaker
    presbytery meeting.
  • speaker
    And fortunately, that
  • speaker
    evolved into a more
  • speaker
    well-rounded
  • speaker
    educational forum
  • speaker
    where they had people from
  • speaker
    various
  • speaker
    with various various expertise
  • speaker
    to come and talk biblically,
  • speaker
    to talk about biological
  • speaker
    and psychological stuff,
  • speaker
    as well as me and this
  • speaker
    homosexual who was simply
  • speaker
    a non-practicing homosexual.
  • speaker
    And he and I got along.
  • speaker
    I mean, because I guess I
  • speaker
    my wish was simply
  • speaker
    that we have choices,
  • speaker
    and his was to
  • speaker
    not practice his sexuality.
  • speaker
    And he had no problem with me
  • speaker
    choosing to practice my
  • speaker
    gayness. So
  • speaker
    we didn't. It didn't quite turn out
  • speaker
    to be the big fight
  • speaker
    between the homosexuals that
  • speaker
    the originators of that
  • speaker
    task of that educational
  • speaker
    experience had anticipated.
  • speaker
    So that's what we did, and
  • speaker
    then we finally prepared a
  • speaker
    final paper,
  • speaker
    and Byron Schaffer
  • speaker
    was chosen as the principal
  • speaker
    writer of the of the Task
  • speaker
    Force, and he wrote a
  • speaker
    great paper, a background
  • speaker
    paper to which we all
  • speaker
    signed all
  • speaker
    those who became members
  • speaker
    of the minority opposed to
  • speaker
    ordination and all those who became
  • speaker
    members of the majority
  • speaker
    signed on to this background paper
  • speaker
    because it simply reported
  • speaker
    what we had gathered
  • speaker
    in our own educational
  • speaker
    process.
  • speaker
    And so
  • speaker
    we all signed for that.
  • speaker
    And actually, when it came to the
  • speaker
    San Diego Assembly and
  • speaker
    I know I'm getting ahead of us, but
  • speaker
    the committee dealing with our
  • speaker
    report knew that if they
  • speaker
    discussed the background paper,
  • speaker
    they'd be there forever.
  • speaker
    So because the Task Force
  • speaker
    unanimously had agreed
  • speaker
    to this background paper,
  • speaker
    which presented all
  • speaker
    the arguments for and against
  • speaker
    the full welcome of LGBT people
  • speaker
    and our ordination,
  • speaker
    they
  • speaker
    decided not to try.
  • speaker
    If they tried to discuss that
  • speaker
    at a General Assembly, they'd
  • speaker
    be here from here to Tuesday
  • speaker
    as one person put it.
  • speaker
    And so they decided simply to
  • speaker
    take on the recommendations
  • speaker
    that came out of the majority,
  • speaker
    which was 14 people
  • speaker
    and the minority, which was five
  • speaker
    people.
  • speaker
    And what's interesting about that
  • speaker
    split for me
  • speaker
    was that what I
  • speaker
    heard at the San Diego
  • speaker
    Assembly that adjudicated this,
  • speaker
    the results of our
  • speaker
    recommendations,
  • speaker
    that if the
  • speaker
    majority report had
  • speaker
    had majority people
  • speaker
    had had more
  • speaker
    straight people
  • speaker
    or and more.
  • speaker
    Well, what was the other thing that
  • speaker
    the more clergy,
  • speaker
    that no more, I
  • speaker
    forget now.
  • speaker
    They said somehow it wasn't
  • speaker
    representative.
  • speaker
    But I what's funny about the
  • speaker
    majority report is that it was
  • speaker
    representative.
  • speaker
    It was male and female.
  • speaker
    It was Black and white.
  • speaker
    It was gay and straight because I
  • speaker
    was the gay vote,
  • speaker
    and and
  • speaker
    and the people who opposed
  • speaker
    it, the minority were all
  • speaker
    white, heterosexual
  • speaker
    male ministers.
  • speaker
    And so,
  • speaker
    you know, in terms of being a
  • speaker
    representative of a diversity of
  • speaker
    Presbyterians, the majority report
  • speaker
    was
  • speaker
    representative of a diversity,
  • speaker
    whereas the Minority Report was
  • speaker
    representative of those privileged
  • speaker
    elite
  • speaker
    white straight
  • speaker
    clergy.
  • speaker
    And so, so anyway,
  • speaker
    I just think that it was an
  • speaker
    interesting split.
  • speaker
    And they were all older of course
  • speaker
    too, retired at some of them.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    So is there,
  • speaker
    yeah, is there some way I can,
  • speaker
    anything
  • speaker
    I missed in your question?
  • speaker
    I guess, what do you recall
  • speaker
    around the moment that
  • speaker
    the General Assembly adopted
  • speaker
    the minority statement over the
  • speaker
    majority statement?
  • speaker
    Well, that was something that
  • speaker
    happened in committee, and
  • speaker
    then they made that recommendation
  • speaker
    to the full General
  • speaker
    Assembly and
  • speaker
    we actually were no longer
  • speaker
    doing our job there.
  • speaker
    We we were not
  • speaker
    necessarily invited to the
  • speaker
    General Assembly in 1978
  • speaker
    that made the final decision because
  • speaker
    we had handed our report over to
  • speaker
    the Advisory Council on Church and
  • speaker
    Society, which had made, there
  • speaker
    were virtually
  • speaker
    no changes to the report.
  • speaker
    And then the Advisory Council on
  • speaker
    Church and Society had handed
  • speaker
    it over to
  • speaker
    the General Assembly meeting
  • speaker
    in San Diego that year.
  • speaker
    And
  • speaker
    but we were nonetheless brought
  • speaker
    to the Assembly to
  • speaker
    help interpret our work if
  • speaker
    needed.
  • speaker
    And so we
  • speaker
    did get a chance to have further
  • speaker
    input. Many committees
  • speaker
    and task forces of the denomination,
  • speaker
    I'm not allowed that, but because
  • speaker
    this was such a controversial
  • speaker
    and vital conversation
  • speaker
    for the denomination, they decided
  • speaker
    to bring us to
  • speaker
    that General Assembly.
  • speaker
    And I got to say just a little side
  • speaker
    note here, because it's a funny
  • speaker
    thing of the.
  • speaker
    That assembly.
  • speaker
    My pastor, Janelle says
  • speaker
    she always expects me to cry when I
  • speaker
    recount these stories,
  • speaker
    but I
  • speaker
    was moved by this.
  • speaker
    I was standing in line with
  • speaker
    other people waiting to get
  • speaker
    into the Presbyterian Women's
  • speaker
    breakfast one morning at that
  • speaker
    General Assembly.
  • speaker
    And Thelma Adair, who I mentioned
  • speaker
    was the Black moderator, first
  • speaker
    Black moderator of the Presbyterian
  • speaker
    Church, who co-appointed
  • speaker
    with Jean Marshall the
  • speaker
    Task Force on Homosexuality.
  • speaker
    So she knew who I was.
  • speaker
    She was in line in front of me.
  • speaker
    And then and she just simply turned
  • speaker
    to me.
  • speaker
    She, sorry.
  • speaker
    She turned to me and she said
  • speaker
    when Black delegates,
  • speaker
    first commissioners
  • speaker
    first began coming to General
  • speaker
    Assembly, we were
  • speaker
    not allowed to stay in the hotels
  • speaker
    with the other commissioners.
  • speaker
    We had to find
  • speaker
    housing in people's homes
  • speaker
    because we
  • speaker
    didn't have access to the hotels
  • speaker
    the white people had.
  • speaker
    Well, that placed
  • speaker
    the whole Gay Movement in
  • speaker
    perspective, I mean, what had always
  • speaker
    inspired me was
  • speaker
    the Civil Rights Movement that
  • speaker
    long before I accepted my own
  • speaker
    sexuality, I just found
  • speaker
    the Civil Rights Movement
  • speaker
    inspirational.
  • speaker
    And so
  • speaker
    in the LGBT Movement,
  • speaker
    many of us
  • speaker
    were grateful for what
  • speaker
    the Civil Rights Movement had done
  • speaker
    for all of us, not just African
  • speaker
    Americans, but all of us
  • speaker
    in terms of giving us hope
  • speaker
    that there can be change
  • speaker
    and welcome both in the
  • speaker
    church and also
  • speaker
    in our culture.
  • speaker
    So
  • speaker
    I was
  • speaker
    because of all of this,
  • speaker
    I began by saying that we
  • speaker
    were at that assembly,
  • speaker
    but not necessarily a part
  • speaker
    of the assembly, so we didn't have
  • speaker
    chairs on the floor when the
  • speaker
    vote took place.
  • speaker
    And so
  • speaker
    we were assigned chairs
  • speaker
    that were vacated by people
  • speaker
    who had already done their work at
  • speaker
    the assembly and had gone home.
  • speaker
    So we were not together
  • speaker
    as a task force on
  • speaker
    the floor of the assembly.
  • speaker
    We were all seated in different
  • speaker
    places and I was given the seat of
  • speaker
    somebody who had left
  • speaker
    and I
  • speaker
    went and sat in it.
  • speaker
    And no, no, actually,
  • speaker
    I was going to sit in it.
  • speaker
    But I found somebody else
  • speaker
    sitting in my chair.
  • speaker
    I said, I'm sorry, this is my chair.
  • speaker
    And he said,
  • speaker
    No, I was given this chair,
  • speaker
    and he apparently
  • speaker
    the person who had left it vacated
  • speaker
    that chair had said, Oh, you can
  • speaker
    have my seat on the floor.
  • speaker
    I said, Well, that's not how it's
  • speaker
    working.
  • speaker
    The General Assembly decides who
  • speaker
    sits where and.
  • speaker
    And so I
  • speaker
    I said I
  • speaker
    would really like to sit down.
  • speaker
    And he said to me,
  • speaker
    he stormed off, saying, No
  • speaker
    wonder you were such
  • speaker
    trouble to the Task Force,
  • speaker
    as if I had done something awful
  • speaker
    to the Task Force and
  • speaker
    now was doing something awful to
  • speaker
    him, displacing him.
  • speaker
    I didn't want to displace him.
  • speaker
    I was told to sit there and
  • speaker
    it was an
  • speaker
    eye opening experience for me
  • speaker
    because I was I was taken aback
  • speaker
    and I was still giving authority to
  • speaker
    this white, older male
  • speaker
    clergy that
  • speaker
    he didn't deserve.
  • speaker
    He didn't deserve to displace me
  • speaker
    or any member of the Task Force.
  • speaker
    And so but I,
  • speaker
    you know, I still so
  • speaker
    wanted acceptance
  • speaker
    that I was
  • speaker
    just embarrassed
  • speaker
    by the whole scene.
  • speaker
    What was interesting, too, was
  • speaker
    that at that assembly, there was a
  • speaker
    movement afoot to have me speak
  • speaker
    to the
  • speaker
    General Assembly as
  • speaker
    if I had anything I could say could
  • speaker
    change their minds from
  • speaker
    or derail them from a
  • speaker
    very strong anti-gay
  • speaker
    feeling that permeated that
  • speaker
    assembly.
  • speaker
    But how it
  • speaker
    transformed was that,
  • speaker
    well, you know, he gave such a nice
  • speaker
    prayer at his presbytery meeting
  • speaker
    when he was disenfranchised
  • speaker
    as a candidate for ordination.
  • speaker
    Why don't you ask him to pray at
  • speaker
    the end of this?
  • speaker
    Well, that made
  • speaker
    its way up through the the
  • speaker
    levels of the General
  • speaker
    Assembly and
  • speaker
    and finally, they said, well,
  • speaker
    yes, but we need to have somebody on
  • speaker
    the other side also offering prayer.
  • speaker
    As if these prayers would be in
  • speaker
    competition.
  • speaker
    So they asked Richard Loveless,
  • speaker
    who was a professor
  • speaker
    at Gordon Conwell, a conservative
  • speaker
    seminary in Boston, who also served
  • speaker
    on the Task Force.
  • speaker
    And he and I got along, but we just
  • speaker
    totally disagreed with each other.
  • speaker
    And so they asked him to give
  • speaker
    what I call I consider a rebuttal
  • speaker
    prayer because during my prayer,
  • speaker
    which I carefully was writing out
  • speaker
    while they were discussing
  • speaker
    our task force report because I
  • speaker
    didn't have any other time to do it,
  • speaker
    so I was writing it out.
  • speaker
    And and
  • speaker
    I felt like this was probably going
  • speaker
    to be the most important prayer
  • speaker
    I ever offered because it was a
  • speaker
    chance to educate people.
  • speaker
    One of those preaching prayers, you
  • speaker
    know? And so
  • speaker
    the what I noticed
  • speaker
    out of the corner of my eye as I was
  • speaker
    reading my my prayer
  • speaker
    was Richard Loveless was taking
  • speaker
    down notes.
  • speaker
    So for his rebuttal points
  • speaker
    in his own prayer, which followed
  • speaker
    mine.
  • speaker
    So that's the way we ended it
  • speaker
    with prayer from me and
  • speaker
    from Richard Loveless and
  • speaker
    and then those of us
  • speaker
    who were championing
  • speaker
    gay rights at that
  • speaker
    assembly got together
  • speaker
    in a hotel suite somebody
  • speaker
    had and we
  • speaker
    celebrated.
  • speaker
    It seems odd, but
  • speaker
    you know, we lost,
  • speaker
    but we celebrated because this was a
  • speaker
    beginning. And as it turned out, the
  • speaker
    beginning of
  • speaker
    some greater acceptance
  • speaker
    on the part of the Presbyterian
  • speaker
    Church. The Presbyterian Church
  • speaker
    isn't totally there yet
  • speaker
    in terms of full acceptance, but
  • speaker
    greater acceptance.
  • speaker
    And we we knew
  • speaker
    that this was just one battle in
  • speaker
    a long
  • speaker
    movement.
  • speaker
    And Bill Silver,
  • speaker
    who is an artist in his he had been
  • speaker
    called to a an art ministry
  • speaker
    at a church in Manhattan.
  • speaker
    Made us little
  • speaker
    medals and
  • speaker
    for
  • speaker
    revealing of their of our own
  • speaker
    idiosyncrasies, I forget what mine
  • speaker
    was, but it was something about
  • speaker
    being very optimistic.
  • speaker
    But it was.
  • speaker
    That's what we did. We we celebrated
  • speaker
    and we we cried.
  • speaker
    And at the time,
  • speaker
    we didn't know
  • speaker
    anything about AIDS
  • speaker
    and didn't know that so many
  • speaker
    people would
  • speaker
    never live to see the day
  • speaker
    when the Presbyterian Church
  • speaker
    fully welcomed us.
  • speaker
    And in fact, the AIDS HIV
  • speaker
    crisis, I think really opened
  • speaker
    the doors of many churches
  • speaker
    because they were willing
  • speaker
    to be compassionate.
  • speaker
    Not all of them, of course, but
  • speaker
    many of them so, so
  • speaker
    so that was how we ended.
  • speaker
    And then, I'm
  • speaker
    jumping on to your next question,
  • speaker
    what happened after that?
  • speaker
    Well, that week, Disneyland
  • speaker
    had its first gay night at
  • speaker
    Disneyland, and I
  • speaker
    had organized a group.
  • speaker
    Some of them were at the assembly
  • speaker
    and some from the church I was
  • speaker
    serving, West
  • speaker
    Hollywood Presbyterian Church.
  • speaker
    We went to gay night Disneyland
  • speaker
    and it was just a
  • speaker
    great cure
  • speaker
    for what ailed us in terms
  • speaker
    of the the
  • speaker
    General Assembly in San Diego
  • speaker
    just a week or two
  • speaker
    prior to that.
  • speaker
    And of course, Disneyland is in
  • speaker
    Anaheim, which is just south
  • speaker
    of L.A.
  • speaker
    and north of San Diego.
  • speaker
    And so we had a great time.
  • speaker
    It was the first, as I say,
  • speaker
    first gay night at Disneyland.
  • speaker
    It wasn't at the time when Disney
  • speaker
    was accepting of LGBT
  • speaker
    people, but what had happened was
  • speaker
    the a tavern guild
  • speaker
    had applied for a private
  • speaker
    party, and
  • speaker
    Disneyland did not realize the
  • speaker
    tavern guild was a guild, a
  • speaker
    guild
  • speaker
    of gay taverns.
  • speaker
    And once they had signed the
  • speaker
    contract, they couldn't back out,
  • speaker
    though they wanted to.
  • speaker
    But we had a great deal of fun.
  • speaker
    And now gay nights at Disneyland
  • speaker
    and Disney World are commonplace.
  • speaker
    So
  • speaker
    thanks be to God, the world changes.
  • speaker
    So I guess that leads us into
  • speaker
    your time with the Lazarus Project.
  • speaker
    Can you talk a little bit about
  • speaker
    that?
  • speaker
    Sure.
  • speaker
    Well, the.
  • speaker
    I was on the Task Force
  • speaker
    and Ross Greek, who was pastor
  • speaker
    of West Hollywood Presbyterian
  • speaker
    Church, who had been involved in all
  • speaker
    kinds of innovative ministries
  • speaker
    and had already done ministries
  • speaker
    within the gay community because
  • speaker
    West Hollywood was
  • speaker
    heavily gay.
  • speaker
    And so he had done
  • speaker
    ministry already
  • speaker
    and actually had hired staff
  • speaker
    who did some of the work
  • speaker
    to, his intent was
  • speaker
    to welcome
  • speaker
    LGBT people into that
  • speaker
    congregation.
  • speaker
    And he
  • speaker
    and I met.
  • speaker
    I had been trying to meet
  • speaker
    him because I had heard about his
  • speaker
    work.
  • speaker
    And so I'd been trying to meet
  • speaker
    him, but never could catch him in
  • speaker
    the office because he really didn't
  • speaker
    believe that ministry happened in
  • speaker
    the office. And so he wasn't there
  • speaker
    and they didn't have a church
  • speaker
    secretary or anybody who could take
  • speaker
    the calls. And I, I don't know if
  • speaker
    voicemail or
  • speaker
    voice answering devices
  • speaker
    were even available then.
  • speaker
    And so
  • speaker
    finally, he called me and I was just
  • speaker
    about to return for my final year
  • speaker
    in seminary, which incidentally,
  • speaker
    was the second year
  • speaker
    of my serving on the Task
  • speaker
    Force. So. So
  • speaker
    anyway, so I went in to meet with
  • speaker
    him into his
  • speaker
    office. And he
  • speaker
    said his question was
  • speaker
    basically, How do
  • speaker
    you church gays?
  • speaker
    To be blunt, that's kind of the
  • speaker
    way he put it, I think.
  • speaker
    How do you make them feel welcome
  • speaker
    in a congregation
  • speaker
    and let them know that this is also
  • speaker
    their church?
  • speaker
    And I had done
  • speaker
    an internship at the Christian
  • speaker
    Association working
  • speaker
    with gay and lesbian students.
  • speaker
    And so I
  • speaker
    but I said to him,
  • speaker
    that wasn't part of my
  • speaker
    job description.
  • speaker
    I was just supposed to assist them
  • speaker
    spiritually. And and
  • speaker
    so but I said I would
  • speaker
    love to have an opportunity to
  • speaker
    do that kind of work, and so
  • speaker
    we.
  • speaker
    We met with the session of
  • speaker
    that church and then later
  • speaker
    with the Social and Ecumenical
  • speaker
    Concerns Commission of the Synod
  • speaker
    of Southern California I think or some
  • speaker
    comparable thing in the presbytery.
  • speaker
    Anyway, I wrote the original
  • speaker
    proposal for Lazarus Project
  • speaker
    at their request.
  • speaker
    And that's a no no.
  • speaker
    You're not supposed to then apply
  • speaker
    for a job that you wrote the
  • speaker
    proposal for, but there weren't many
  • speaker
    of us around.
  • speaker
    So.
  • speaker
    So I did.
  • speaker
    They did want me to apply for the
  • speaker
    job and
  • speaker
    and it went through I jumped
  • speaker
    through all the hoops required in
  • speaker
    Presbyterian land
  • speaker
    to get approval, financial
  • speaker
    approval, financial
  • speaker
    endorsement, as well as,
  • speaker
    you know, spiritual
  • speaker
    ecclesiastical endorsement
  • speaker
    and.
  • speaker
    And so it did when it
  • speaker
    was finally funded, which it wasn't
  • speaker
    when I was hired, actually,
  • speaker
    when it was fully funded, it was
  • speaker
    funded on multiple levels.
  • speaker
    The congregation committed money
  • speaker
    to it, the presbytery, the Synod
  • speaker
    of Southern California and Hawaii
  • speaker
    and the
  • speaker
    General Assembly
  • speaker
    committee having to do with mission
  • speaker
    development.
  • speaker
    And they gave
  • speaker
    money to this and was a
  • speaker
    three year
  • speaker
    funded project.
  • speaker
    And then its was supposed to solicit
  • speaker
    its own funds ultimately.
  • speaker
    And so it did, and
  • speaker
    it lasted 30 years.
  • speaker
    I was there for the first ten
  • speaker
    and then two
  • speaker
    other directors followed
  • speaker
    me.
  • speaker
    One was a
  • speaker
    straight woman
  • speaker
    who
  • speaker
    who, let me think, Peg
  • speaker
    Beissert who had been on
  • speaker
    the candidate's
  • speaker
    committee of Pacific Presbytery,
  • speaker
    when it recommended to the
  • speaker
    Presbytery that it receive me as a
  • speaker
    candidate for ordination and
  • speaker
    she was a great champion and
  • speaker
    because she had fought hard
  • speaker
    to be ordained as a woman in the
  • speaker
    Presbyterian Church, in fact she was
  • speaker
    ordained in the United Church of
  • speaker
    Christ because at the time that
  • speaker
    she was seeking ordination,
  • speaker
    the Presbyterians didn't ordain
  • speaker
    women, and so she
  • speaker
    was ordained in the United Church of
  • speaker
    Christ. And then finally, when the
  • speaker
    Presbyterian Church changed its
  • speaker
    mind, she went back into
  • speaker
    the Presbyterian Church and served
  • speaker
    in a variety of roles
  • speaker
    in the denomination.
  • speaker
    She became the second director,
  • speaker
    and the third was Donn Crail,
  • speaker
    who was
  • speaker
    a Presbyterian pastor and
  • speaker
    and and so he took the reins for
  • speaker
    another 10 years.
  • speaker
    So it lasted a good long time
  • speaker
    and well into the period when
  • speaker
    the denomination
  • speaker
    began
  • speaker
    accepting more and more
  • speaker
    LGBT
  • speaker
    Q members and
  • speaker
    clergy.
  • speaker
    So
  • speaker
    but that was
  • speaker
    the Lazarus Project was slated
  • speaker
    to be a Ministry of Reconciliation.
  • speaker
    It wasn't just to try to welcome
  • speaker
    LGBT people into that congregation
  • speaker
    or into the denomination,
  • speaker
    but to educate
  • speaker
    the Presbyterian Church.
  • speaker
    And so we did
  • speaker
    semiannual conferences
  • speaker
    where we brought in people like John
  • speaker
    Boswell and
  • speaker
    experts in the
  • speaker
    field to talk about,
  • speaker
    people like Bernadette Bruton and
  • speaker
    a host of people
  • speaker
    who could help the church understand
  • speaker
    the relationship between the LGBTQ
  • speaker
    community and
  • speaker
    the church more broadly, not just
  • speaker
    the Presbyterian Church, and
  • speaker
    those
  • speaker
    gatherings were attended by people
  • speaker
    of multiple denominations
  • speaker
    and I
  • speaker
    think helped many
  • speaker
    churches begin to understand
  • speaker
    and help and
  • speaker
    understand and welcome LGBT
  • speaker
    people.
  • speaker
    Also, we
  • speaker
    developed what we called
  • speaker
    affectionately a Lazarus
  • speaker
    Road Show, which was
  • speaker
    a group of us who would
  • speaker
    go and speak to other churches.
  • speaker
    So this was taking that
  • speaker
    educational component
  • speaker
    and taking it on the road.
  • speaker
    And so that we could
  • speaker
    address more churches that many
  • speaker
    people who would not come to
  • speaker
    any gathering that we hosted
  • speaker
    and we did host it in different
  • speaker
    churches. We hosted it at
  • speaker
    West Hollywood Presbyterian
  • speaker
    initially.
  • speaker
    And and so
  • speaker
    the people for the people who might
  • speaker
    not have a chance to attend
  • speaker
    a daylong conference, we could do
  • speaker
    like an afternoon
  • speaker
    forum for their congregation.
  • speaker
    So that
  • speaker
    became one of our projects.
  • speaker
    We also started a jail ministry.
  • speaker
    Somebody had found out
  • speaker
    that gay inmates in the Los Angeles
  • speaker
    County Jail were not allowed to go
  • speaker
    to worship services
  • speaker
    by the official chaplains there
  • speaker
    unless they signed a paper
  • speaker
    condemning homosexuality.
  • speaker
    Of course, people
  • speaker
    that's not really welcoming them.
  • speaker
    And so we started doing
  • speaker
    services with the local
  • speaker
    Metropolitan Community Church in Los
  • speaker
    Angeles at the men's
  • speaker
    jail of the Los
  • speaker
    Angeles County Jail
  • speaker
    and those were weekly services.
  • speaker
    And our members
  • speaker
    lay and ordained,
  • speaker
    mostly lay at that point,
  • speaker
    led those services.
  • speaker
    So that was another
  • speaker
    ministry we had.
  • speaker
    We also had a tape ministry
  • speaker
    where we taped the experts that came
  • speaker
    to speak to us about
  • speaker
    the relevant topics of
  • speaker
    reconciling the church and the
  • speaker
    LGBTQ community.
  • speaker
    We had
  • speaker
    we audiotaped them
  • speaker
    and and those
  • speaker
    tapes were available to anybody
  • speaker
    who wanted them.
  • speaker
    So there were many things, and
  • speaker
    Ross was
  • speaker
    very generous
  • speaker
    with me in terms of the pulpit.
  • speaker
    We shared equally as
  • speaker
    if we were co-pastors,
  • speaker
    and he preached half the time
  • speaker
    and I preached half the time,
  • speaker
    and I led a weekly Bible study
  • speaker
    too, that lasted a dozen
  • speaker
    years.
  • speaker
    Well, let's see,
  • speaker
    it lasted as long as I was there,
  • speaker
    which was ten years
  • speaker
    and may have lasted beyond that, I
  • speaker
    don't recall.
  • speaker
    And so.
  • speaker
    So that
  • speaker
    church became
  • speaker
    kind of a first of its kind
  • speaker
    in terms of
  • speaker
    being so very welcoming and having
  • speaker
    a staff person, full time
  • speaker
    staff person assigned to working
  • speaker
    within the LGBT community.
  • speaker
    It also meant being involved in the
  • speaker
    politics of the LGBT
  • speaker
    community and and
  • speaker
    gaining changes
  • speaker
    in
  • speaker
    laws and
  • speaker
    understandings in the broader
  • speaker
    community. So it was it
  • speaker
    was very multifaceted.
  • speaker
    It was a great
  • speaker
    opportunity.
  • speaker
    Definitely.
  • speaker
    So that leads us to our next part.
  • speaker
    Could you talk about your early work
  • speaker
    with Presbyterians for
  • speaker
    Lesbian and Gay Concerns?
  • speaker
    Well, it was a very informal
  • speaker
    group.
  • speaker
    We, David
  • speaker
    Sindt was is the founder,
  • speaker
    was the.
  • speaker
    Well, he's passed on now, but
  • speaker
    he was the founder of
  • speaker
    the group, the organization.
  • speaker
    And it actually began when he
  • speaker
    sent letters to those of us who were
  • speaker
    whom he was
  • speaker
    informed were interested in this,
  • speaker
    in forming a
  • speaker
    caucus within the Presbyterian
  • speaker
    Church for LGBTQ
  • speaker
    concerns.
  • speaker
    And
  • speaker
    our first presence
  • speaker
    was through him at the.
  • speaker
    It may have been the Louisville
  • speaker
    Assembly in,
  • speaker
    anyway, so it was all him,
  • speaker
    just him, and he actually held up
  • speaker
    a sign said, Is anybody gay
  • speaker
    out there?
  • speaker
    I didn't go to that assembly because
  • speaker
    I was a seminary student and I
  • speaker
    didn't have the resources to go
  • speaker
    to assemblies,
  • speaker
    but I did
  • speaker
    finally.
  • speaker
    Well, I began participating on a
  • speaker
    local level.
  • speaker
    I remember my very first meeting
  • speaker
    of the organization was in New
  • speaker
    York City at Bill Silver's
  • speaker
    apartment.
  • speaker
    He and his partner hosted
  • speaker
    us, and that was the first time I
  • speaker
    met Bill Silver
  • speaker
    and and then I started.
  • speaker
    I became involved in
  • speaker
    in the organization, and
  • speaker
    I said, as I said, it was really
  • speaker
    kind of informal and we needed
  • speaker
    people to be officers.
  • speaker
    And so I became
  • speaker
    a an officer
  • speaker
    of the of the
  • speaker
    of the organization.
  • speaker
    Meanwhile, the guy who edited
  • speaker
    our newsletter, who was in the
  • speaker
    closet, nice
  • speaker
    guy.
  • speaker
    And
  • speaker
    he was he was
  • speaker
    a professionally respected,
  • speaker
    but he was in the closet and
  • speaker
    people didn't know.
  • speaker
    And so I can't say what his
  • speaker
    profession was, but he was
  • speaker
    well-recognized in his home state.
  • speaker
    And but he was had been
  • speaker
    doing the newsletter for a while
  • speaker
    and he was looking for somebody else
  • speaker
    to take it over.
  • speaker
    And he kept putting it out there
  • speaker
    in the newsletter.
  • speaker
    If anybody would be willing to edit
  • speaker
    this, this newsletter,
  • speaker
    I would welcome them.
  • speaker
    And so I
  • speaker
    was concerned about the,
  • speaker
    kind of the negative way
  • speaker
    in which the newsletter
  • speaker
    was reporting events
  • speaker
    in the church
  • speaker
    because it was like, this kind of
  • speaker
    woe is me kind
  • speaker
    of articles and
  • speaker
    and I thought, you know,
  • speaker
    we we needed to make
  • speaker
    it more optimistic and hopeful.
  • speaker
    And so I took him up
  • speaker
    on his offer and
  • speaker
    I said I'd be happy to edit
  • speaker
    the the newsletter.
  • speaker
    And so I did, and I changed
  • speaker
    the name. It was no longer the
  • speaker
    Newsletter of Presbyterian, well the
  • speaker
    name of the organization kept
  • speaker
    changing to. There was no longer the
  • speaker
    Newsletter of Presbyterians for
  • speaker
    Lesbian and Gay Concerns,
  • speaker
    but it became
  • speaker
    More Light, which I
  • speaker
    published more as a
  • speaker
    magazine than as a
  • speaker
    newsletter.
  • speaker
    And it was called More Light
  • speaker
    because in
  • speaker
    1976, when the Presbyterians decided
  • speaker
    to study this issue, they quoted
  • speaker
    Pastor John Robinson
  • speaker
    in his
  • speaker
    quote to the
  • speaker
    Puritans when they were escaping
  • speaker
    persecution, which
  • speaker
    became a part of the song
  • speaker
    that we sing in church.
  • speaker
    But the phrase
  • speaker
    was that the quote was, God
  • speaker
    had yet more light
  • speaker
    to break forth from God's word.
  • speaker
    And the committee
  • speaker
    dealing
  • speaker
    with setting up the Task Force had
  • speaker
    used that quote,
  • speaker
    God has yet more light to bring
  • speaker
    forth through God's word.
  • speaker
    And so
  • speaker
    Bill Silver had made
  • speaker
    a brochure
  • speaker
    highlighting the work of our
  • speaker
    organization, which
  • speaker
    had the cover and the cover
  • speaker
    on the cover of the of the
  • speaker
    three part
  • speaker
    brochure.
  • speaker
    It said Yet More Light.
  • speaker
    And so, you know, I was doing
  • speaker
    this newsletter very
  • speaker
    basically
  • speaker
    I was, you know, typing it up
  • speaker
    and we were copying it that
  • speaker
    way. And so I simply
  • speaker
    cut out the More Light from
  • speaker
    that brochure and stuck it on
  • speaker
    the cover of the newsletter.
  • speaker
    And then I had
  • speaker
    somebody I had worked with at West
  • speaker
    Hollywood Presbyterian, who was a
  • speaker
    publisher printer who
  • speaker
    printed our
  • speaker
    copies of the newsletter
  • speaker
    for the number of years that I
  • speaker
    was editor
  • speaker
    of the paper.
  • speaker
    And my idea was to
  • speaker
    let the newsletter really
  • speaker
    shed more light
  • speaker
    and be more
  • speaker
    of an optimistic
  • speaker
    instrument of
  • speaker
    the message of LGBTQ
  • speaker
    people in the in
  • speaker
    the church.
  • speaker
    And and then
  • speaker
    what happened was congregations.
  • speaker
    When the General
  • speaker
    Assembly voted against
  • speaker
    ordination, which meant not only
  • speaker
    ordination of clergy,
  • speaker
    but ordination of elders and
  • speaker
    deacons in local congregations.
  • speaker
    Well there were churches that
  • speaker
    already had elders
  • speaker
    and deacons serving, including West
  • speaker
    Hollywood Presbyterian,
  • speaker
    those churches
  • speaker
    that decided to rebel
  • speaker
    and say, No, we're going to go ahead
  • speaker
    and ordain LGBT
  • speaker
    people as
  • speaker
    deacons and as elders.
  • speaker
    And so we called those
  • speaker
    More Light congregations.
  • speaker
    And and it was just so
  • speaker
    kind of informally decided on
  • speaker
    a train trip among a few of us.
  • speaker
    I'm not even sure
  • speaker
    who came up with the idea,
  • speaker
    but it was like four
  • speaker
    of us
  • speaker
    going between meetings
  • speaker
    on the train between, maybe
  • speaker
    between
  • speaker
    Philadelphia and New York City, but
  • speaker
    it was anyway, that's how
  • speaker
    they became More Light
  • speaker
    congregations.
  • speaker
    And then we had the first More Light
  • speaker
    Church Conference at West
  • speaker
    Hollywood Presbyterian.
  • speaker
    By that time, I had
  • speaker
    resigned
  • speaker
    my position, well changed my
  • speaker
    position.
  • speaker
    Well, what had happened at that
  • speaker
    church was that the pastor had
  • speaker
    retired, and so
  • speaker
    the in consultation with the
  • speaker
    presbytery, with the presbytery exec
  • speaker
    to be exact, they
  • speaker
    decided to rewrite my job
  • speaker
    description. So I was half time
  • speaker
    parish coordinator and half time
  • speaker
    Lazarus Director, and we had
  • speaker
    a Presbyterian minister worshiping
  • speaker
    with us who could do communion
  • speaker
    and do the sacraments,
  • speaker
    communion, baptism and moderate
  • speaker
    session, which were the only things
  • speaker
    I couldn't do in this role because
  • speaker
    I wasn't ordained.
  • speaker
    And so
  • speaker
    the.
  • speaker
    Well, so eventually what happened
  • speaker
    then was I had been there for 10
  • speaker
    years and I thought it was
  • speaker
    time to move on.
  • speaker
    And
  • speaker
    I resigned initially
  • speaker
    after seven
  • speaker
    years of this dual position, well
  • speaker
    five, four or five years because I
  • speaker
    was in the originally full time Lazarus
  • speaker
    director, and then I became
  • speaker
    a
  • speaker
    parish coordinator and Lazarus
  • speaker
    director.
  • speaker
    Well, I resigned my part as
  • speaker
    a parish coordinator.
  • speaker
    And that allowed the church
  • speaker
    to hire a
  • speaker
    full time pastor.
  • speaker
    And that's what happened
  • speaker
    then. Dan Smith was selected
  • speaker
    as the pastor, new
  • speaker
    pastor of the West Hollywood
  • speaker
    Presbyterian Church,
  • speaker
    and we, he and I
  • speaker
    hosted the first More Light Church
  • speaker
    Conference there at West
  • speaker
    Hollywood Presbyterian.
  • speaker
    So that was a very historical
  • speaker
    Presbyterian church, which is
  • speaker
    a Presbyterian church no more
  • speaker
    because Dan
  • speaker
    Smith got tired
  • speaker
    of fighting with the presbytery when
  • speaker
    he wanted to do marriages
  • speaker
    of same gender couples,
  • speaker
    which by then was permitted
  • speaker
    in the state of
  • speaker
    California but still not
  • speaker
    permitted in the Presbyterian
  • speaker
    Church.
  • speaker
    So he led
  • speaker
    the congregation into the
  • speaker
    United Church of Christ, and so
  • speaker
    is now West Hollywood,
  • speaker
    West Hollywood, United Church of
  • speaker
    Christ.
  • speaker
    And what's really cool about
  • speaker
    it now is that when he left and
  • speaker
    retired just a couple of years ago,
  • speaker
    they chose a Black
  • speaker
    lesbian pastor.
  • speaker
    And so it just
  • speaker
    it's it's just good news all the way
  • speaker
    around, and I'm very happy
  • speaker
    for them. I was a little resistant
  • speaker
    at first because so many of us had
  • speaker
    put so much into the West Hollywood
  • speaker
    Presbyterian to keep it a
  • speaker
    Presbyterian church.
  • speaker
    But I understood
  • speaker
    that that congregation was just
  • speaker
    tired of fighting with the
  • speaker
    presbytery.
  • speaker
    The United Church of Christ, was far
  • speaker
    more open, is far more open
  • speaker
    and welcoming of LGBT
  • speaker
    people. And so
  • speaker
    their polity allowed
  • speaker
    Dan and the current pastor
  • speaker
    to
  • speaker
    both ordain and also to
  • speaker
    marry LGBT
  • speaker
    people.
  • speaker
    So it's a complicated history as you
  • speaker
    can tell.
  • speaker
    Definitely.
  • speaker
    Well, so
  • speaker
    the only other thing left, do
  • speaker
    you have anything else that you want
  • speaker
    to say about this time?
  • speaker
    Any other stories that you want to
  • speaker
    share?
  • speaker
    Anything, really?
  • speaker
    You know, it's open now.
  • speaker
    You know, I did initially when I
  • speaker
    your questions try to jot down a
  • speaker
    few notes, but I realized that
  • speaker
    it would become another
  • speaker
    book. So I decided not
  • speaker
    to go with
  • speaker
    the notes idea, but I
  • speaker
    think it's pretty much, pretty
  • speaker
    much covered everything.
  • speaker
    Well, one other thing I did leave
  • speaker
    out and that was my transition
  • speaker
    to the Presbyterian Church was also
  • speaker
    as a result of my,
  • speaker
    I was an English major in college
  • speaker
    at California State University,
  • speaker
    Northridge, and
  • speaker
    began the same year they
  • speaker
    began the religious studies
  • speaker
    department. So I began
  • speaker
    taking courses in that, and so I was
  • speaker
    a double major, English and
  • speaker
    religious studies. Well, religious
  • speaker
    studies, was broadening my horizons
  • speaker
    spiritually in terms
  • speaker
    of understanding religion and the
  • speaker
    nature of Christianity and the Bible
  • speaker
    and sacred texts
  • speaker
    and all that.
  • speaker
    So that really opened me up and
  • speaker
    my first man's religions course.
  • speaker
    That's what it was called man's
  • speaker
    religions, was
  • speaker
    I started to say pastored, but
  • speaker
    taught by the
  • speaker
    chair, new chair of the department,
  • speaker
    who had been asked to do this and
  • speaker
    moved into Cal State Northridge
  • speaker
    from his studies at
  • speaker
    a law school.
  • speaker
    But he was a Methodist minister and
  • speaker
    his name was Dr. Thomas
  • speaker
    Love, which
  • speaker
    I loved the
  • speaker
    appropriateness of that name because
  • speaker
    he was a very loving man, but
  • speaker
    he was a very much a
  • speaker
    doubting Thomas as well.
  • speaker
    I mean, he
  • speaker
    he could be critical of
  • speaker
    Christianity as
  • speaker
    and could teach it critically
  • speaker
    and of the Bible.
  • speaker
    And and that was a very
  • speaker
    helpful liberating thing for me.
  • speaker
    My very first course was my very
  • speaker
    first semester at Cal State
  • speaker
    Northridge, and
  • speaker
    I had a four hour break
  • speaker
    after my man's religions course,
  • speaker
    where I was sat under what
  • speaker
    I called my axis mundi, my
  • speaker
    center of the world,
  • speaker
    a tree.
  • speaker
    And think about
  • speaker
    what I was learning in that class,
  • speaker
    and I was really depressed
  • speaker
    because everything I had been
  • speaker
    taught or not everything, but
  • speaker
    a lot of what I'd been taught was a
  • speaker
    whole different notion of
  • speaker
    Christianity as the only true
  • speaker
    religion.
  • speaker
    And and suddenly
  • speaker
    all that was called into question
  • speaker
    by what I was learning.
  • speaker
    What I realized was
  • speaker
    that my
  • speaker
    depression came from
  • speaker
    my realization
  • speaker
    that I believe this new material I
  • speaker
    was being offered, this news
  • speaker
    that other religions were equally of
  • speaker
    value and
  • speaker
    and had something
  • speaker
    to offer the world,
  • speaker
    but me in
  • speaker
    particular. So I
  • speaker
    just opened up,
  • speaker
    blossomed spiritually, in
  • speaker
    terms of my welcome
  • speaker
    of different
  • speaker
    views. And one of the courses I
  • speaker
    took was a, taught
  • speaker
    by Bob Goss.
  • speaker
    And he was also
  • speaker
    not to be confused with
  • speaker
    Robert Goss, who's an
  • speaker
    author, but he
  • speaker
    taught a course called
  • speaker
    Pagan themes
  • speaker
    in contemporary literature.
  • speaker
    And he used the term pagan
  • speaker
    positively, not as a
  • speaker
    negative put down.
  • speaker
    And we read
  • speaker
    Garcon, the
  • speaker
    first process thinker I
  • speaker
    read.
  • speaker
    We read Garcon, we
  • speaker
    read Nietzsche, and we read
  • speaker
    Kazantzakis.
  • speaker
    And the one of the books by
  • speaker
    Kazantzakis was Zorba the Greek.
  • speaker
    And as I write in Uncommon
  • speaker
    Calling, my first book, Zorba
  • speaker
    the Greek became a second Bible to
  • speaker
    me because Zorba was
  • speaker
    alive.
  • speaker
    He was embodied.
  • speaker
    I mean, you know, the funny thing
  • speaker
    about Christianity is
  • speaker
    it's all about embodiment.
  • speaker
    The incarnation, Jesus
  • speaker
    was alive.
  • speaker
    And yet I had been taught
  • speaker
    to downplay my bodily
  • speaker
    experience, my physical
  • speaker
    experience, the material world,
  • speaker
    in hopes of heaven
  • speaker
    high and beyond in some kind of
  • speaker
    spirit realm.
  • speaker
    And this book just
  • speaker
    called out in me the need to be
  • speaker
    my physical self.
  • speaker
    And that's what Christianity should
  • speaker
    be doing.
  • speaker
    And that's what the incarnation is
  • speaker
    about, it's about enlivening
  • speaker
    us to our bodies, understanding
  • speaker
    us of how important
  • speaker
    bodily experience was and that is
  • speaker
    was one of the conduits for me to
  • speaker
    accepting my sexuality.
  • speaker
    Was that, hey, you know,
  • speaker
    this is a good thing.
  • speaker
    God gave me this.
  • speaker
    God wanted me to make love.
  • speaker
    God wanted me to experience
  • speaker
    making love.
  • speaker
    And and so.
  • speaker
    And when you then
  • speaker
    reread the scripture as
  • speaker
    I then did.
  • speaker
    From that perspective, I realize,
  • speaker
    Oh, Jesus was constantly touching
  • speaker
    people and he healed that and he
  • speaker
    brought them into right relationship
  • speaker
    with God and with
  • speaker
    their communities.
  • speaker
    And. And so he was
  • speaker
    a, you know, as we said in those
  • speaker
    days, touchy
  • speaker
    feely guy and
  • speaker
    that had not been part
  • speaker
    of my upbringing,
  • speaker
    unfortunately.
  • speaker
    And so the religious
  • speaker
    studies courses I took opened
  • speaker
    me up to other religions,
  • speaker
    different spiritual perspectives,
  • speaker
    and the importance of the body
  • speaker
    in the material world in
  • speaker
    terms of understanding who God
  • speaker
    is.
  • speaker
    And I came to adopt and I also
  • speaker
    took a process theology
  • speaker
    course and
  • speaker
    and I came to the opinion
  • speaker
    that, you know, I wasn't
  • speaker
    a pantheist, not that the world is
  • speaker
    God's body, but rather a
  • speaker
    panentheist, which means
  • speaker
    that the world
  • speaker
    is in God.
  • speaker
    And so that everything we see and
  • speaker
    do and feel and touch and hear and
  • speaker
    smell is God.
  • speaker
    And it didn't deny
  • speaker
    me the God of
  • speaker
    the Hebrews, or the God of
  • speaker
    the Christians,
  • speaker
    but rather it expanded
  • speaker
    that understanding of God
  • speaker
    to be more inclusive and
  • speaker
    that inclusiveness included
  • speaker
    me.
  • speaker
    So
  • speaker
    I'm grateful to the religious
  • speaker
    studies department at Cal State
  • speaker
    Northridge that enabled
  • speaker
    me to accept a
  • speaker
    new understanding
  • speaker
    of spirituality and one
  • speaker
    that could include people like
  • speaker
    me.
  • speaker
    Great. And I just
  • speaker
    want to say thank you so much for
  • speaker
    spending the time to do this.
  • speaker
    If there's anything else you'd like
  • speaker
    to say, go ahead, but
  • speaker
    it's probably a good place to stop.
  • speaker
    Yeah, I think that it sounds like
  • speaker
    it does sound like a good
  • speaker
    place to stop.
  • speaker
    But Nick, I really appreciate your
  • speaker
    questions and
  • speaker
    and your listening to me.
  • speaker
    And whoever
  • speaker
    ends up watching this, I thank you
  • speaker
    for listening
  • speaker
    to me and
  • speaker
    giving me an opportunity to
  • speaker
    record my thoughts.
  • speaker
    Of course. Thank you so much.

Bookmark

BookBags: