Joanna Adams oral history, 2017.

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This is Beth Hessel.
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I am in Atlanta, Georgia,
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interviewing the Reverend Joanna
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Adams for the Presbyterian
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Historical Society on
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August 16th, 2017.
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Joanna, thank you for hosting
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me.
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I'm delighted to host you
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and I appreciate being a
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part of this project.
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Thank you. I thought we'd start
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first with some start with your
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beginning of your life.
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You were born here in Atlanta.
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Born in Atlanta during World
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War II.
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My father was assigned
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here to.
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He was not in the Secret Service,
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but he was in
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a branch of government that
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investigated counterfeit
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war bonds and that
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sort of thing.
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And so that's why we were in
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Atlanta. Though both sides of my
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family are Georgian back
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to the early 1800s.
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So we're all
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deeply
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rooted in the South.
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And how long was your family here
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in Georgia then?
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You and your
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parents?
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Not very long.
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I would say two years.
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And then we moved to
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Mississippi, where my dad
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went to be
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head of the Mississippi Industrial
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Council. He ended up
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in Meridian, Mississippi.
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I started first grade in Meridian,
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Mississippi, which is right in the
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center of the state.
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Just
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right. Right.
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Well, closer to the state
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line. But on a parallel with
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Jackson, we
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I started school at
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in Meridian.
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And my brother
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and I went through
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public schools in Meridian,
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Mississippi.
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He went to college
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at Millsaps in Jackson,
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Mississippi.
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And the summer before
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my senior year
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in high school, my
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dad announced that we were moving to
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Chattanooga, Tennessee, where he had
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a new job.
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And so I was
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ripped out of the only
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fabric I ever
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had been a part of and memory
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and had to go to a new high school
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my senior year.
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And it was a very,
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very daunting experience.
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But sort of like
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Joseph and his brothers, you know
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God used it for good because
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if I'd remained in Mississippi, I
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probably would have gone to
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Millsaps or to
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what was then called MSCW,
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Mississippi State College for Women.
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But instead, I went to Emory
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and had a fabulous scholarship, the
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largest one
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for for
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College of Arts and Sciences the
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whole time I was there
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and at Emory, of course, I met my
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husband.
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Life has turned out pretty swell.
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So let's there are a couple of
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little points there that I want to
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go back to and look at.
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Let's let's go back
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to Meridian and growing up in
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Meridian.
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Your brother, it sounds like, was an
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older brother?
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Yes.
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And how many years older?
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Three and a half years old.
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And he today
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is a still practicing.
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He's a doctor in Tucson,
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Arizona.
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I've mentioned my
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father several times.
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I was extremely
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close to my mother
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and it is sort of her story
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and her family story
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that I have found
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myself resonating with
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so deeply.
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She was a minister's daughter, the
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youngest of five children.
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So funny to think about birth
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control.
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The good, the good Reverend
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Flanders and my grandmother
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obviously had a sweet relationship
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because my mother was born when her
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mother was 45 years old.
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My goodness.
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So her father died when she was 11
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and her mother died when she was 18.
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But the stories that
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I heard about
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Anna and John, my grandparents,
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and I'm named for them.
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Joanna.
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My mother created the name
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Joanna out of those two names.
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I just love those stories
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about their happy family and
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about, you
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know, how people would bring
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chickens and ears
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of corn and field peas
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and stuff to, you know, for the
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family to eat.
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They had no money much.
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My grandfather was a Methodist
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and he served
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churches in South Georgia.
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My mother, for example, was born in
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East London,
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Sylvester Waycross,
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and he, Beth, he
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died.
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This is such a stunning
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story.
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He had gone to preach at
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a revival
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in Waycross.
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He was by then the district
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superintendent
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and his text was
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1 Corinthians 15,
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which is such a magnificent
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exposition of the meaning of the
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resurrection.
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And it goes on and on and on and
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on until it gets to that last
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verse where
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Paul writes, Therefore, my
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beloved brethren and
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King James, be you
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steadfast, immovable,
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always excelling in the work of
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the Lord.
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For, you know, your labors are not
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in vain.
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In the middle of his sermon
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on that text, he had a
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cerebral hemorrhage and
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collapsed.
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And they put him on the
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train to Atlanta and
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he died on the way.
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My mother was 11 years old.
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So
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that is so powerful to me.
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And, you know, mother would tell the
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story of how when she was
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little she opened a closet
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door in the
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front hall of the little parsonage
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they lived in. And there was a Black
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man standing in the closet
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and mother says, So, I
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screamed and ran into the kitchen.
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Said, momma, momma.
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And she said, My mother
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hugged me and said,
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Let's go meet your papa's
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friend.
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There's some people in town who
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think that Mr. Jones
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has stolen something,
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but papa knows he hasn't.
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And he's safe here
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until after the sun goes down.
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And then papa is going to help him
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get out of town.
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So in the deepest,
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darkest South, you know.
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So, his
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father was a minister.
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His grandfather
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was a minister.
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His great grandfather.
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They were very prominent in the
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area around Swainsboro.
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And my daughter and I
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found the cemeteries where,
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you know, and, you know,
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it's just wonderful to see all these
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Flanders.
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And my
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middle name is, I'm
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Joanna Flanders Moseley Adams.
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And they were the Flanders.
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And I
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just love the fact that
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my great
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grandfather
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married
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a woman who was allegedly
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just wonderful.
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You know, had six or seven children
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to her name was Bathsheba, Bathsheba
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Drake
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and there's just a world
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that's gone forever down there.
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You know, it was
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you know, my mother was born in
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1910,
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so this was post-Civil
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War
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and yet before the 20th century
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really got going.
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So.
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So your your your
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ancestors would have been among some
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of the earliest Methodists in
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the country.
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They would. Yes, that's correct.
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That's correct.
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And the you know,
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the Flanders had
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come down from
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Virginia,
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you know, and just made their way
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down, you know, further south.
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And I don't know exactly
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why, but they did.
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And so there just
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I don't know, there are lots of
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Flanders in
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in Georgia,
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particularly in that part of
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Georgia.
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And my daddy's family
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daddy was born in Lyons, Georgia,
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which is Toombs
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County and these counties
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like Eastman and Lyons they
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are they are in
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the most conservative.
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The there's no
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way to describe
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how conservative
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and sort of unchanged
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that area's now.
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You know, we have a place down
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in the coast now.
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So I'm very much familiarizing
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myself with South Georgia and it's
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just amazing.
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It's just amazing
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how things
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have changed so
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slowly, if at all.
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So your your mom, your mom
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was brought up Methodist.
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Were you brought up Methodist also?
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I was. I was.
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And that's an interesting story.
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My my parents.
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I would say they did not have
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a wonderful marriage.
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Mother was kind of, you
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know, a Methodist minister's
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daughter, but I'm sure how
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she felt about alcohol.
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And
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and daddy was daddy
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went to law school, but he
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never practiced law.
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He became a chamber executive.
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And that's what he did.
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But he was you know, he played golf
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and he drank beer.
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And, you know, he played
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poker with the fellows at the
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club and that sort of thing.
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And my daddy did
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become an alcoholic.
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And
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so there was a lot of
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tempestuousness.
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There's a lot of there's
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a lot of bad weather growing
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up, a lot of
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fighting between mother and daddy.
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And I had a
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young mother's aunt and my mother's
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sister, my aunt was
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the she come to
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Mississippi because my mother
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was there and she was the
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DCE in our
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we went to a big Methodist church
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and
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I called her and my mother did too
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we called her Squeaky.
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Her name was Irma,
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but she would sometimes invite me to
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come spend the day and I
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would adore that.
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I would go to the church
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and I would just have free reign
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to go anywhere and do anything.
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And this was in Meridian?
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And when I was in grammar school
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and it was the place I
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felt safe.
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I knew there wasn't.
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I knew there weren't going to be any
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storms
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inside this place
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of peace.
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I've told this story way too often,
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but it's such a great story.
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And I'll tell it one more time.
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One day when I was spending the
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day, I was exploring
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around the sanctuary.
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And I
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opened the door to a
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tiny little alcove
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that had a shelf.
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And so it was turned
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out to be a little kitchen that was
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obviously there to prepare
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Communion. And it was, you know, it
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was a Friday and Communion was going
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to be on Sunday.
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And there those trays were
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stacked up with,
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you know,
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300 little
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thimbles full of grape juice,
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of course, and
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and little white bread
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crumbs.
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Bread cubes.
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And they were stacked up like
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a mountain of mana,
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you know.
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And so
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I just thought it wouldn't hurt.
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It might be fun to be bad,
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eat a little cube of bread and
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have one little
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cup of juice.
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And then somehow I kind
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of lost my mind and I
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just ate more bread
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and drank more thimbles full
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of juice.
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And of course, you know what
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happened next.
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My aunt Squeaky appeared at the
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door, and, you know, I'm sure
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I didn't. But when I told the story,
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I said there I was, guilty
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as sin wearing a purple
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mustache.
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And, you know, she could talk about
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an impending storm.
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And I started crying I said, I know
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I shouldn't have done this. She
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put her arms around me
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and she said,
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I'll tell you what let's do.
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Let's fix it all back
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the way it was.
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I love you.
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First greatest
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experience of unconditional
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grace and love
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in my life.
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So all these things are
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just really important.
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It's so important that,
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you know, the Mississippi
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in the fifties was,
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you know, it was a totally white
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world. We had a
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you know, we had
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maids that helped us.
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And we had, you know,
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literally a yard man
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who would drive by in a wagon
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and mother would, you know,
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asking to push the lawn mower
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or something.
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But it was totally segregated.
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And the older I got,
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the more.
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It just
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it just sort of got to me.
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I remember giving Elmira who was
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one of my favorite
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housekeepers, a hug
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one day because there weren't a lot
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of hugs at my house.
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And mother
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fussed at me later and said,
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you know, white people don't hug
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Black people.
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So all of that sort of
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lived inside of me.
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To this day I'm very
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close to a friend
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who lives in Mississippi, not in
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Meridian, but we
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were childhood friends,
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who is a who would say
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the same thing to this
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very day.
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You know, for Black people.
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So was there a
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point in time when
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you started to wonder about
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there were these stories that your
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mother told you,
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what her grand, what her mother and
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father would do.
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Right.
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To help protect
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Black people.
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And then to be told, you don't
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hug
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a Black person.
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My mother was that my mother
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was an extremely
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loving person and she was smart.
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She she taught
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French and Latin and all that.
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She was she
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herself would
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never be unkind to
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anyone and would never
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you know, she would never
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do anything that was directly
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racist.
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But they were people
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of their time and mother
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was very conventional
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in terms of
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the culture. I knew nobody who
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wasn't conventional.
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I mean, really, it was
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just nobody
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thought integration
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was any good.
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You know, it was just this is going
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to ruin everything.
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But daddy, interestingly,
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working with business people.
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This is
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kind of an aside, Beth, but you'll love this. Mississippi
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was the last state
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to stop being a
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statewide dry
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state.
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In the whole state.
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You couldn't sell
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liquor legally.
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But here's the incredible
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thing.
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If you did and of course, it was
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sold all over everywhere, you
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had to pay a black-market
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tax.
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And the black-market tax
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was used to
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support this was the greatest
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source of income for
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public schools in the state.
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And so there was this alliance
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of the Baptists
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and the bootleggers
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to keep it to keep it dry.
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Anyway so
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daddy hated that kind of stuff.
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You know, he was he was
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progressive when it came to things
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like that.
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In
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terms of my ending up
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in the ministry,
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when I was in high school, I wanted
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to be a psychiatric social
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worker.
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And I think about that now and that
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tickles me because, you know, I
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wanted to fix my family.
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Good Lord did I want to fix my
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family that I couldn't do it.
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And I think that's why I have such a
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temper and, you know, have
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this, you know, because I
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grew up so frustrated if
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they would just listen to
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me.
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But of course, they wouldn't.
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And, you know.
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I wonder, there where you talked
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about your mother's stories, too,
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about her own family, if that was.
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Was that her way too of showing you
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an alternative way of being from
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what you were experiencing?
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I really do think so.
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And, boy, it helped me
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a lot.
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But here's the thing about ministry.
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When I was like
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seven.
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Mother always taught
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and I would come home,
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you know, usually be there by myself
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for a while.
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And my favorite day
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was involved.
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I had a little desk.
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And it looked to my
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mind it resembles sort of a pull
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the pulpit at the church
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and I would line all my dolls
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and stuffed animals up on the bed
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and I would get behind that desk
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and I would preach my heart to
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them, of course, the most attentive
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congregation there ever was.
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Of course.
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But why would I do that?
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You know? And
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I loved playing with my dolls.
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You know, I was not a
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you know, it wasn't weird,
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but it was my favorite game.
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And what would your sermons come
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from? Was it from the Sunday school
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lesson that Sunday or what you heard
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the preacher doing or were you
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pulling it from somewhere else?
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Well, I did love I did love
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my.
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I had a great book of Bible stories
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and mother or Squeaky would read
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those to me.
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So I knew a little bit, but they
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just my sermons were very
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extemporaneous.
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Listen.
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But, you know, I
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to be a minister, you
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know, but actually, I had thought
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at one point about being a
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missionary
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and when and then I
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started
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dating a really cute boy who
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realized that, you know,
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I was not really
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and I thought, you know, if you were
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a missionary, you know,
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you had to be a certain
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kind of person.
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Right.
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Methodist missionaries in the fifties seemed a
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little dour shall we say.
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And so I decided
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that I would give that
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calling up. Though
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honestly, I've lived
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a very different life.
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But I look back on it and I would
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have have I would have I would have
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loved that life, too.
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I really would have.
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So I I
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had no religious ambitions
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when, you know, I went to Emory.
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And how did you how did you choose
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Emory? You moved.
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So you you were uprooted from
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Meridian and from your circle of
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friends and life to Chattanooga.
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And how did you think of Emory
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in in Atlanta for
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college?
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Well a couple of reasons. A.
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I was born there.
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B.
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It was in Georgia.
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And, you know, my family
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was here.
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And
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thirdly, I had two uncles
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who one who was
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head of the Poetry Society in
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Georgia and was
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the one of the founders
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of Georgia State University and
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taught there for years.
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His name was Bertram Holland
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Flanders, and he was quite a fellow.
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And then my Uncle Ralph
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taught at NYU for
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30 years taught Southern history
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actually. And both of them
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had gone to Emory.
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So it was like, you know,
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I didn't dream of anything outside
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the South. I didn't I didn't even
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know there was much
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outside the South.
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But I loved going to Emory, it was
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great.
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But I you know, I was a sorority
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girl and I majored
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in English mainly because,
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you know, I knew I could teach.
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My mother had taught all
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the women I knew had been teachers
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or homemakers.
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I didn't know any woman who did
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anything else.
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So my goal was to, though I
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loved English and I fell in love
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with John Milton,
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but I mainly majored in English so
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I could read and get a grade for it.
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I thought that was the most
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wonderful blessing that you
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know, that what I would do naturally
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I could get credit
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for.
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And who are your favorite authors or
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of what was your favorite genres to
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read?
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My favorite genre
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genre was
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the novel.
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And, you know, just
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back there with Moll Flanders
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and, you know,
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onward and onward.
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And I still
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I still I read a lot
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and I really like
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fiction.
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But recently I've
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been sort
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of revisiting some things.
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I'm in a book club that where you
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get to choose what you want to do,
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we're choosing good literature.
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So I've just reread
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The Scarlet Letter and
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just adored it.
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You know what you miss when you're
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18 and you can pay attention
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to when you're 72.
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A real difference.
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You know, I
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chose to do the discussion
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of Madame Bovary because
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the last time I read it
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was when I gave was in
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the hospital, having given birth to
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my first baby.
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And what
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I came home very tired from the
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hospital for two reasons.
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One, I had
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the baby with me, and the
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other was that I stayed up all night
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reading Madame Bovary.
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So anyway,
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we married our senior year
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and Al went to law school
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and I taught English and creative
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writing.
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And how did you and Al meet at
speaker
school was it in class or through
speaker
the sorority fraternity?
speaker
Or what was that?
speaker
I was dating
speaker
a fraternity brother of Al,
speaker
and I would go to
speaker
lunch at the fraternity house
speaker
sometime and
speaker
I met Al.
speaker
We enjoyed chatting and then we
speaker
ended up in the same
speaker
geology class and I despise
speaker
geology and Al has one of those
speaker
photographic memories when you know
speaker
he remembers everything and I
speaker
couldn't. I was trying to learn
speaker
those tables, you know.
speaker
Oh, how deadly.
speaker
And so he we started studying
speaker
together and.
speaker
One afternoon we were
speaker
I had been out with the other fellow
speaker
the night before and
speaker
we were studying on a Sunday
speaker
afternoon. And
speaker
Al says, you don't seem very happy.
speaker
I say, Well, no, I'm not.
speaker
You know, I had a hard time.
speaker
David didn't treat me very well.
speaker
And this is, you know,
speaker
one of my best memories.
speaker
So Al pushes
speaker
this chair back from the study
speaker
table. Leans like to get something,
speaker
gets a dime out of his
speaker
pocket, puts it on the table
speaker
in front of me. And he said, You
speaker
know what I'd do?
speaker
I would go call
speaker
David and just tell him that,
speaker
you know, you're sort of done. And Beth
speaker
I picked up that dime called
speaker
that fellow.
speaker
And so
speaker
that's how it happened.
speaker
And we just fell crazy in love.
speaker
And, you know, those were the days
speaker
when, you know, you
speaker
I don't know that we would have
speaker
married so young if we weren't
speaker
ourselves in particularly
speaker
me pretty conventional about
speaker
you know, my personal
speaker
life and that sort of thing.
speaker
You know, those were the days when
speaker
you didn't live with somebody.
speaker
And were you involved in a in a in a
speaker
church while you were in college?
speaker
We would go I would go sometimes
speaker
to the university church, which
speaker
is Glen Memorial.
speaker
But after we
speaker
got married, we
speaker
looked for a church and briefly
speaker
went to First Methodist downtown
speaker
Atlanta,
speaker
and it was so dreary.
speaker
But you know it was Methodist and it
speaker
was a downtown church, just
speaker
as the church was that I'd grown up
speaker
in.
speaker
And they were
speaker
ecstatic that we were visiting
speaker
because everybody else was, you
speaker
know, in the geriatric crowd.
speaker
And, um,
speaker
AI was invited to go to the
speaker
administrative board meeting
speaker
trying to get him involved.
speaker
And, and
speaker
AI came home and said, We're
speaker
not going to that church anymore.
speaker
He said, we talked about the budget
speaker
and the entirety
speaker
of the budget.
speaker
It was to be directed to
speaker
others
speaker
was funding for 10 turkeys.
speaker
Wow.
speaker
So we stopped going to church.
speaker
Then Elizabeth was born and
speaker
when I was 23
speaker
and
speaker
when I was pregnant with Sam,
speaker
who was born when I was 25.
speaker
I was pushing Elizabeth in a
speaker
stroller with a neighbor
speaker
who was pushing her
speaker
toddler.
speaker
And I said, You know we're
speaker
just having a hard time.
speaker
We had tried the Unitarian Church
speaker
and that, oh, I didn't like that.
speaker
Oh, I didn't like that.
speaker
But it was good to have tried it.
speaker
We're having a hard time finding a
speaker
church.
speaker
I don't know what to do.
speaker
And Whitney was her name.
speaker
She said, Well, Jo,
speaker
I know a church you might like.
speaker
It's the church we go to, actually.
speaker
Now, I'll tell you, we're getting
speaker
ready to leave that congregation,
speaker
but I thought you might like it.
speaker
And I said, Well, why are you
speaker
leaving?
speaker
And she said,
speaker
The minister
speaker
talks all the time
speaker
about the Vietnam War
speaker
and civil rights.
speaker
We were there the next Sunday
speaker
and it was North Decatur
speaker
Presbyterian Church,
speaker
which where I was, was some
speaker
wonderful church here.
speaker
David Lewicki and Beth Waltemath are
speaker
the co-pastors now.
speaker
And, you know,
speaker
Sam was baptized there.
speaker
Our children grew up there till I
speaker
went to Central.
speaker
I was a candidate for
speaker
the ministry and I just felt so much
speaker
at home. And and
speaker
I started teaching a
speaker
nice lady in the church called me
speaker
one day and asked me if I'd
speaker
teach a Sunday school class.
speaker
I understand you're a teacher Martha
speaker
said.
speaker
And I said, yes.
speaker
And she said, Well, I would love
speaker
for you to teach a class on faith
speaker
and feminism.
speaker
And I said, Well, my faith
speaker
is in a formative stage right
speaker
now, and I've only
speaker
read Betty Friedan's book.
speaker
That's all I know.
speaker
She said, Oh, good, you can
speaker
everybody can learn together.
speaker
And
speaker
I just loved it.
speaker
And the minister one Sunday went
speaker
to the center of the chancel,
speaker
and he began his benediction
speaker
by saying this.
speaker
God's not here anymore.
speaker
We had a date with the Almighty.
speaker
We kept it, the
speaker
Lord kept it.
speaker
But if you want to encounter
speaker
God,
speaker
you're going to have to get on out
speaker
of here.
speaker
A you'll find Him
speaker
where people are suffering
speaker
and where people are hungry
speaker
for food and for justice.
speaker
You'll find Him in the
speaker
world that
speaker
Christ came to save.
speaker
So get on out there.
speaker
So we picked up the babies
speaker
and got in the car,
speaker
and I just
speaker
cried hysterically all
speaker
the way home.
speaker
And AI thought I had lost my mind.
speaker
But it was the turning point for
speaker
me, because that Methodist pietism
speaker
is that I have been raised in.
speaker
The function of it was
speaker
to reassure
speaker
all the people who were
speaker
part of the establishment that
speaker
God was in heaven,
speaker
who cares about the world.
speaker
And what matters in terms of faith
speaker
is your own relationship with God
speaker
and with Christ.
speaker
And actually, I think
speaker
that does matter very deeply,
speaker
but that isn't whole darn thing.
speaker
And I just loved
speaker
the the that aspect
speaker
of, you know, our reformed
speaker
heritage that, you know,
speaker
God is the God as John Hesseling
speaker
said God is the God of the grand
speaker
design.
speaker
The grand design.
speaker
And, you know,
speaker
the spirit of God
speaker
is at the heart
speaker
of culture and creativity.
speaker
And I just adore that thought.
speaker
So I went to,
speaker
you know North Decatur's not far
speaker
from Columbia Seminary.
speaker
And so I drove out there one day,
speaker
a nervous wreck saying
speaker
I wanted to learn.
speaker
I wanted to learn more about
speaker
scripture and I
speaker
wanted to learn more about theology.
speaker
I was very hungry, it was, you know
speaker
it was like it was lunchtime
speaker
or past lunchtime.
speaker
But I didn't want to have anything
speaker
to do with, you know, any
speaker
preparation for ministry.
speaker
And were you still teaching at this
speaker
time or had you?
speaker
No, I stopped teaching when
speaker
the children were born, so I stayed
speaker
home.
speaker
You know, for about five years.
speaker
Uh, you know,
speaker
when I started seminary, Sam was
speaker
born in 70.
speaker
I started seminary 74.
speaker
And
speaker
anyway, I loved,
speaker
I loved my the only
speaker
course I could take at first
speaker
was a a night
speaker
course taught by a visiting
speaker
professor from Scotland,
speaker
Dr. Ronald Wallace.
speaker
And the course sounds
speaker
deadly.
speaker
It was a course on
speaker
Elisha and Elijah.
speaker
And so there I am, you know,
speaker
swimming around in 1 and 2
speaker
Kings.
speaker
Well, I just thought
speaker
nothing had been as fascinating
speaker
to me than the air of that.
speaker
You know, it's just.
speaker
Oh, I just.
speaker
I loved it.
speaker
Were you in a degree program at that
speaker
time or?
speaker
No, I was a special student.
speaker
Just taking courses.
speaker
Yeah and then, you know,
speaker
the next year I
speaker
went full time. Though tt took me
speaker
it took me an extra year
speaker
to graduate because I had to.
speaker
And, you know, the irony was, of
speaker
course, Al's out there,
speaker
you know,
speaker
working his head off, you know,
speaker
trying to start his law career
speaker
and. Oh, and you know,
speaker
whose you know, he
speaker
gets up early in the morning and
speaker
he's gone and, you know, he comes
speaker
home when the senior partners
speaker
are through with him, you know.
speaker
And so it was it was
speaker
a.
speaker
And you had babies and a home.
speaker
Exactly.
speaker
So when you
speaker
you you felt this hunger,
speaker
this physical and spiritual
speaker
hunger to learn more
speaker
and then decided that you wanted to
speaker
start an MDiv program.
speaker
What was the response of Al?
speaker
What did he what did he say when you
speaker
said, hey, I want to go get my
speaker
MDiv and maybe go into to the
speaker
ministry? How did he how did he
speaker
respond?
speaker
He said totally
speaker
wonderful.
speaker
I mean, you know, we were
speaker
entirely different people.
speaker
You know, we were fraternity
speaker
and sorority
speaker
boy and girl,
speaker
but Al's
speaker
always been he
speaker
actually one time when I was
speaker
feeling guilty about
speaker
the demands of ministry
speaker
when I was at Central and the kids
speaker
and all that,
speaker
I said, you know, I really changed
speaker
scripts on you, you
speaker
know, I was going to
speaker
join the League of Women Voters and
speaker
and just be,
speaker
you know, a traditional woman.
speaker
And he said, no, you weren't.
speaker
I didn't know what it was going to
speaker
be, but I knew that that
speaker
wouldn't be enough for you.
speaker
And I was just interested in seeing
speaker
how it was going to go and where you
speaker
were going to go. And he thought
speaker
that was great, and we
speaker
really just had a wonderful time
speaker
together.
speaker
Of course, I couldn't move from
speaker
Atlanta and
speaker
the except for my
speaker
ill-starred sojourn to Chicago.
speaker
We'll get there.
speaker
But,
speaker
you know, I you know,
speaker
I honestly,
speaker
in that when I was at Trinity here
speaker
in the nineties,
speaker
I had my secretary
speaker
had a form
speaker
letter that she would,
speaker
of course, retype every time,
speaker
but I would get as many like every
speaker
week or so I'd get an inquiry
speaker
from from a church somewhere,
speaker
you know, from California to
speaker
New York or whatever.
speaker
And I would just say
speaker
bring the letter and, you
speaker
know, I would edit it for the
speaker
occasion because it just,
speaker
you know, had many, many
speaker
opportunities to
speaker
do other things.
speaker
But, you know, AI was
speaker
our primary breadwinner and
speaker
his his vocation is
speaker
as important as mine.
speaker
So that was
speaker
okay.
speaker
How about at your church?
speaker
Um, you know, in the early
speaker
seventies, there weren't a lot of
speaker
women in ministry.
speaker
Did you have other were
speaker
there other women out there that you
speaker
saw as, as pastors
speaker
that were were examples
speaker
to you were there
speaker
that you could turn to?
speaker
Did your church say, this is
speaker
fantastic when you when you had the
speaker
call?
speaker
Yes.
speaker
What was the response of you?
speaker
Because it was North Decatur's a
speaker
very progressive church.
speaker
But I had never heard
speaker
a woman preach when I went to
speaker
seminary. I'd actually never heard
speaker
a woman pray in public.
speaker
But I knew there were women who were
speaker
ministers.
speaker
And,
speaker
you know, that was when
speaker
the PCUS headquarters
speaker
was here on 341
speaker
Ponce de Leon.
speaker
And so there were several women
speaker
who were ministers who worshiped
speaker
with our congregation.
speaker
And when I went to Columbia, the
speaker
only female professor
speaker
was Catherine Gonzalez.
speaker
And she was great.
speaker
You know, she she would
speaker
have us over and
speaker
and, you know, she'd been through
speaker
it all.
speaker
And, you know, she was just very,
speaker
you know, Catherine's anything but
speaker
mushy, but she was just very
speaker
pastoral and supportive to
speaker
us. And, you know, there
speaker
were some good folks, Sally,
speaker
somebody who's been in Mississippi,
speaker
a wonderful minister, and
speaker
Joyce Tucker.
speaker
And, you know there were, I wasn't
speaker
the only one, but when
speaker
I was called to Central to
speaker
this position.
speaker
I was the first woman
speaker
in Atlanta Presbytery
speaker
to be called to a full
speaker
time ordained
speaker
position.
speaker
There were many women who
speaker
were on church staffs.
speaker
But every one of them was what
speaker
was called an assistant
speaker
minister. Because.
speaker
Serving at the pleasure of the pastor.
speaker
Right. And no benefits.
speaker
So what was your
speaker
examine examination like
speaker
on the floor of the presbytery?
speaker
Do you remember that?
speaker
Yes, I do. I remember being an
speaker
absolute nervous wreck
speaker
and, you know, turned out fine.
speaker
But honestly, I thought I was going
speaker
to throw up.
speaker
It was so funny, you know, because
speaker
I don't know just
speaker
a very kind of negative
speaker
self consciousness
speaker
that,
speaker
you know, that's
speaker
been a demon that I've
speaker
always wrestled with.
speaker
You know, I'm and I'm
speaker
just thinking about,
speaker
you know, good friends,
speaker
men who are ministers.
speaker
And I honestly don't think
speaker
they go through
speaker
that kind of, you
speaker
know, sit on your shoulder.
speaker
Is your sermon going to measure
speaker
up?
speaker
And I found that, you know, I had to
speaker
be you
speaker
know, I
speaker
have to be ten times better
speaker
than almost anybody else.
speaker
You have to be unusual.
speaker
And that that's been a hard
speaker
standard to
speaker
keep up.
speaker
And
speaker
it's.
speaker
It's been costly.
speaker
Do you feel it's shifted and changed
speaker
over time?
speaker
I do. I've gotten.
speaker
I've gotten.
speaker
I've got more
speaker
self-confidence.
speaker
I mean, I don't think anybody in the
speaker
world would think I didn't have
speaker
self-confidence.
speaker
But, you know, I do.
speaker
And I don't
speaker
know.
speaker
And do you think that's mostly your
speaker
internal sense of self, or
speaker
do you think that there's more
speaker
acceptance in
speaker
the church now for women in
speaker
leadership positions?
speaker
Both things are true.
speaker
Both things are true.
speaker
And, you know, I have a
speaker
I guess it was after I'd been at
speaker
Trinity a year or two.
speaker
And Trinity is a very formidable
speaker
congregation, a wonderful
speaker
congregation.
speaker
But good Lord,
speaker
I was there about 11
speaker
years and somebody asked me,
speaker
What would you say about your time
speaker
at Trinity and
speaker
I've said, Well,
speaker
it was like dancing with
speaker
a big beautiful bear.
speaker
Deep commitment to excellence
speaker
there. Are you as smart
speaker
as Allison Williams,
speaker
who is the founder of the church?
speaker
See I'd followed him and
speaker
he'd been there 42 years.
speaker
And finally, you know,
speaker
that people began to realize that,
speaker
you know, there were there were
speaker
apples and there were oranges and,
speaker
you know, I had the congregation
speaker
doubled in size when I was there,
speaker
the budget doubled
speaker
or more in size.
speaker
When I got there, there were maybe
speaker
30 kids around.
speaker
When I left, there were 500.
speaker
You know, it was and we had
speaker
two capital campaigns.
speaker
We raised a total
speaker
of 25 million dollars when I
speaker
was there.
speaker
And
speaker
the congregation was horrified
speaker
and stunned when I said I'm going to
speaker
go to
speaker
Chicago.
speaker
But, you know, you can wrestle with
speaker
the bear only so long.
speaker
So I'm reminded that, because there are all these wonderful angles to go.
speaker
But on, talked
speaker
about being a child and church was
speaker
a place where you felt safe.
speaker
And growing up in the Methodist
speaker
pietism where it
speaker
was are you, you know, is your soul
speaker
right with God?
speaker
It
speaker
sounds like you you and
speaker
Al had had social concerns
speaker
for justice.
speaker
Were you involved in in
speaker
protest against the Vietnam War or
speaker
for civil rights at all in your
speaker
in your teens or early twenties?
speaker
Not until we became Presbyterian.
speaker
We yearned to be,
speaker
you know, we were.
speaker
It was, you know, we.
speaker
Everything was so.
speaker
You know, we got married when we
speaker
were 21.
speaker
We'd had two babies by the time we
speaker
were 25.
speaker
Law school, you know,
speaker
just all of that
speaker
was you know, we we
speaker
weren't. But then I,
speaker
you know, thanks to North Decatur.
speaker
I mean, it's amazing how little
speaker
things,
speaker
you know.
speaker
We we had a
speaker
we helped create
speaker
a daycare center in a very
speaker
poor African-American neighborhood
speaker
in DeKalb County called Scottdale.
speaker
And just going around with those
speaker
kids, you know, saying, oh, my
speaker
gosh, you know, Elizabeth
speaker
Adams is sitting at home,
speaker
you know, being read to three times
speaker
a day. And these kids,
speaker
nobody's told them that those green
speaker
round things on their plate are
speaker
peas.
speaker
We did, we had a prison ministry.
speaker
We we resettled
speaker
refugees, Laotians and
speaker
Vietnamese.
speaker
And I mean, here we were with our
speaker
little kiddos and and,
speaker
you know, we were in charge
speaker
of the and we had two house
speaker
little houses, the brown house and
speaker
the gray house.
speaker
And we refugee families
speaker
lived there.
speaker
And, oh, that was such an
speaker
honor, you know, to get to
speaker
know those people.
speaker
And,
speaker
you know, I'll never forget when
speaker
the grandfather in one of our
speaker
families passed away
speaker
and Al went to Turner's Funeral
speaker
Home to
speaker
ask if
speaker
we could honor
speaker
that family
speaker
by setting up
speaker
the room in
speaker
the Buddhist way.
speaker
And Mr. Turner said,
speaker
Well, of course you can. Isn't that swell?
speaker
And then I went to Central
speaker
gah-lee.
speaker
I marched we
speaker
vigils against the death penalty.
speaker
Jerry Falwell stood on
speaker
the steps
speaker
of the State Capital, spewing
speaker
one of those horrible
speaker
speeches that he made all around
speaker
the country, just right across
speaker
the street,
speaker
just denigrating gay people
speaker
and feminists.
speaker
And, you know.
speaker
I testified in
speaker
Congress about
speaker
homelessness.
speaker
We started the first homeless
speaker
shelter.
speaker
The first well, there was a teeny
speaker
little one at Clifton Presbyterian.
speaker
And when there were so many people
speaker
that needed
speaker
a place. I was at
speaker
Central.
speaker
We started the really good
speaker
shelter that
speaker
was the sort of mother of
speaker
all the rest and
speaker
soup kitchens.
speaker
And I remember
speaker
going in and talking to Buddy Innis
speaker
who was senior pastor and a
speaker
wonderful man.
speaker
You know, we need to do this, Buddy.
speaker
It was February
speaker
and we need to do it now.
speaker
And I'm just thinking
speaker
that maybe we could go ahead
speaker
and start the shelter
speaker
and then get
speaker
it going. And then
speaker
see what the session says
speaker
and I said, it's a real
speaker
crisis.
speaker
And Buddy and I recall that when
speaker
Dr. King was assassinated, Central
speaker
was ground zero.
speaker
People came from all over everywhere
speaker
and slept on the floors.
speaker
So we have a precedent
speaker
in responding to a crisis.
speaker
So I got I founded the homeless
speaker
task force in Atlanta and
speaker
testified one of my passions
speaker
was about bathrooms.
speaker
I testified about
speaker
public bathrooms.
speaker
And so I,
speaker
you know, not to, I'm
speaker
not saying this to pat myself
speaker
on the back, but
speaker
Andrew Young was mayor.
speaker
And last year
speaker
I was asked to speak at
speaker
a breakfast
speaker
for the United Negro College Fund,
speaker
and Andrew Young was there and he
speaker
was to speak to
speaker
and we've remained friends across
speaker
the years,
speaker
and he told us, and he's 85
speaker
now, he he stood
speaker
up and said, I'm always proud
speaker
to see Joanna and I want to tell
speaker
you about what happened.
speaker
One day she appeared
speaker
at at City Hall
speaker
at my office with
speaker
about 15 people behind
speaker
her.
speaker
And I thought, oh, Lord,
speaker
here comes momma to give me a
speaker
switching.
speaker
Because I was always pushing on him
speaker
to do a little better with
speaker
homelessness.
speaker
And he
speaker
said, So
speaker
you came in and I was
speaker
ready to take my punishment.
speaker
And you said, Mayor Young, let's
speaker
talk about how
speaker
together we can
speaker
make Atlanta
speaker
better for our homeless
speaker
friends.
speaker
And he said that was
speaker
that was maybe
speaker
the sweetest day I was mayor,
speaker
because I just thought, you know,
speaker
we're going to have righteous
speaker
protests
speaker
and, you know,
speaker
neither he nor anybody
speaker
else who's worked on homelessness in
speaker
Atlanta has fixed any of it.
speaker
And I honestly, Beth, we
speaker
had the shelter, which was a
speaker
wonderful ecumenical
speaker
shelter,
speaker
still exists by the way,
speaker
and we were doing the homeless
speaker
taskforce,
speaker
this was like 83.
speaker
And I honestly thought
speaker
that if we could put the business
speaker
people, the church people,
speaker
the synagogue people
speaker
and the
speaker
city hall together, we
speaker
really could, you
speaker
know, get this
speaker
thing tackled.
speaker
It seemed like the harder we worked,
speaker
the worse it got.
speaker
And I almost had a.
speaker
I wouldn't say I had a breakdown,
speaker
but I took it
speaker
at least a two month leave
speaker
of absence because I was so
speaker
frustrated
speaker
and felt
speaker
defeated, you know, that
speaker
whole idea. If you just get good
speaker
people together, good things can
speaker
happen. Well, that was the end of
speaker
my liberalism.
speaker
And one
speaker
person who helped me tremendously
speaker
was Tim McDonald, who is
speaker
head of Concerned Black Clergy and
speaker
very kind of rabble rouser.
speaker
Fabulous, wonderful guy.
speaker
I always teased him saying,
speaker
You never met a microphone
speaker
or a bullhorn you didn't
speaker
like.
speaker
He said, Joanna,
speaker
you know, you you're
speaker
not going to make it if you keep
speaker
doing it this way.
speaker
He said, you
speaker
aren't going to bring in the
speaker
Kingdom.
speaker
And I'm not either.
speaker
And if you think it's all
speaker
on you,
speaker
then you're going to
speaker
give out or break down or whatever.
speaker
You know God's in charge of the
speaker
Kingdom.
speaker
We do what we can
speaker
and trust that the day will come.
speaker
I love the word proleptic.
speaker
And, you know,
speaker
this side of the dark
speaker
glass
speaker
you you you
speaker
live as if
speaker
what you hope for
speaker
has already come to be.
speaker
Right.
speaker
And that has helped me so much.
speaker
You know,
speaker
I had a friend, Sister
speaker
Joan, a
speaker
Catholic nun whose passion
speaker
was the
speaker
admittance of women
speaker
into the priesthood.
speaker
And I said, well, if that
speaker
isn't enough to,
speaker
you know, make you jump
speaker
in the river, you know,
speaker
talk about butting your head against
speaker
the wall.
speaker
And she is the most irenic
speaker
way, she just smiled
speaker
and said, Oh,
speaker
I know it's not going to happen
speaker
in my lifetime or
speaker
the next,
speaker
but one day it will happen.
speaker
And I will know.
speaker
And I'll be so grateful
speaker
that I just did my part when
speaker
I could.
speaker
That helped me too.
speaker
So. So how has your, um,
speaker
how, how do you think you fulfill
speaker
your understanding of God
speaker
and and humanity's
speaker
role that in.
speaker
In relation to God's world in
speaker
God's kingdom have has shifted
speaker
and changed over the years?
speaker
In light of all of this.
speaker
Work and experience you've had.
speaker
I'll try to answer that by giving
speaker
an analogy.
speaker
A few years ago, there was a Matisse
speaker
exhibit at the High Museum right
speaker
across the street.
speaker
And I rarely do this, but I went
speaker
to see that exhibit by myself.
speaker
It was a had a morning off
speaker
and just thought that would be good
speaker
for my soul.
speaker
And the
speaker
the museum had
speaker
some of the exhibit chronologically,
speaker
so Matisse
speaker
starts with,
speaker
you know, he's in this
speaker
kind of closed
speaker
school end
speaker
of the 19th century,
speaker
very just
speaker
conventional.
speaker
And then as his
speaker
painting progresses,
speaker
the shadows sort of fall away.
speaker
Beauty and color.
speaker
And at the end of the exhibit
speaker
are all the
speaker
liturgical garments
speaker
that he had made that are just
speaker
huge and beautiful and displayed
speaker
all the time in a
speaker
chapel at Nice, which I got on.
speaker
We got on the plane and went to see
speaker
them there, too.
speaker
But so you you come
speaker
just sort of with your little box.
speaker
And then what's
speaker
happened to me is
speaker
that I've been more
speaker
and more and more opened
speaker
up.
speaker
So that
speaker
all the things I care about
speaker
in terms of my friendships
speaker
and interfaith work.
speaker
To me, as Jim
speaker
Fowler would say that the highest
speaker
level of spiritual
speaker
maturity in his stages of spiritual
speaker
maturity.
speaker
Not many people get that year, and
speaker
I'm still not quite there.
speaker
But it's where you know who you are.
speaker
You are grounded
speaker
in your faith
speaker
and in the traditions
speaker
that are behind
speaker
you.
speaker
But you have no need
speaker
to make the people around you
speaker
reflect who you are.
speaker
In fact, you are
speaker
able to understand
speaker
your own faith
speaker
so much clearer
speaker
when you are in
speaker
the company of people
speaker
whom you know and respect
speaker
who who understand it,
speaker
that huge reality
speaker
differently.
speaker
Without a doubt, the most meaningful
speaker
thing I've done
speaker
in the last ten years
speaker
has been to be a part of
speaker
Higher Ground,
speaker
which was
speaker
a five year project
speaker
that was put together by the
speaker
Community Foundation of
speaker
Greater Atlanta.
speaker
It was it the seed
speaker
for it came when I retired
speaker
and there was a nice party
speaker
and
speaker
there were too many speakers.
speaker
But three of them were
speaker
my 40
speaker
year friend,
speaker
Alvin Sugarman was great Rabbi
speaker
of our Temple, though he's retired
speaker
now.
speaker
Joe Roberts, who was
speaker
pastor of Ebenezer Baptist for
speaker
30 years.
speaker
Succeeding King
speaker
and Plemon El-Amin who was imam of a
speaker
very,
speaker
very fine masjid here and
speaker
they all said
speaker
something briefly.
speaker
They are friends with one another
speaker
and they're friends with me.
speaker
And, you know, we've just
speaker
known each other and done things
speaker
together. I actually had
speaker
I had all three of them preach at
speaker
Trinity. I mean, I had an imam
speaker
preach at Trinity in 1994.
speaker
The criticism was,
speaker
you know, I didn't come to church to
speaker
I came to church to hear the gospel
speaker
of Jesus Christ.
speaker
I said, well come next Sunday and
speaker
you'll hear it.
speaker
But this was kind of gospel-ly
speaker
wasn't it and that we
speaker
realize that all human
speaker
beings are made in the image of God?
speaker
What was their response?
speaker
They forgave me.
speaker
You know.
speaker
That's good.
speaker
But so Alicia
speaker
Philipp, who's head of the Community
speaker
Foundation was there.
speaker
And about a month later she
speaker
sent all of us an email saying,
speaker
we need a religious voice in
speaker
Atlanta. We don't hear one as
speaker
much as we used to.
speaker
So for five years, we
speaker
went all over the
speaker
everywhere and spoke.
speaker
And, you know, when we spoke
speaker
at Georgia State, we had
speaker
like 750
speaker
people came to hear us.
speaker
And then we went to a
speaker
county just south of Atlanta.
speaker
And that was the first time
speaker
it was on the front page of the
speaker
paper the next day that there'd
speaker
been a Muslim
speaker
in the sanctuary
speaker
of First Presbyterian McDonough,
speaker
Georgia.
speaker
So I loved that and
speaker
I adored Joe Roberts.
speaker
I was very close to him
speaker
going way back.
speaker
I mean, Al was the attorney who
speaker
when they adopted their son,
speaker
you know, we've known them since we
speaker
were in our early twenties.
speaker
And when Joe died, it was very
speaker
devastating.
speaker
But his death and then
speaker
the rabbi has
speaker
a form of leukemia that
speaker
he has to manage.
speaker
And he's like 76
speaker
or 77.
speaker
So we decided
speaker
that what was in
speaker
the foundation did that the unique
speaker
thing about our writing
speaker
and our presentations was our
speaker
friendship.
speaker
You know, if we did nothing else,
speaker
I used to think it doesn't matter.
speaker
We could just, you know, say nursery
speaker
rhymes.
speaker
But the fact that there are the four
speaker
of us who clearly
speaker
are genuine friends, and
speaker
it's not that we agreed on
speaker
everything we we didn't
speaker
agree on everything for sure.
speaker
The interestingly,
speaker
the
speaker
most delicate
speaker
and controversial thing that really
speaker
got our people's
speaker
blood pressure up the four of us was
speaker
Israel and Palestine.
speaker
The imam.
speaker
I can imagine.
speaker
Is an avid
speaker
but you know, that's a real
speaker
relationship when you
speaker
can be real with one another.
speaker
And would you have when you were
speaker
when you were having your dialogs
speaker
and conversations
speaker
together in public, would you have
speaker
those conversations to show
speaker
that you didn't necessarily agree on
speaker
an Israel and Palestine, or did you
speaker
just keep out of them?
speaker
No, we.
speaker
We would always meet.
speaker
We met like once a month for a
speaker
couple of hours and
speaker
just would chew stuff over
speaker
and let's say we're going to the
speaker
temple.
speaker
You know what would be a beginning
speaker
topic? And then we would get
speaker
questions from the
speaker
from the audience and then we would
speaker
have a conversation
speaker
among us
speaker
so that, you know, Cleveland says,
speaker
you know, God is.
speaker
So and so.
speaker
Alvin and I got into one of
speaker
the Oh, this is so interesting
speaker
to me.
speaker
I really do like the
speaker
though I know it isn't perfect, but
speaker
I really do like the idea
speaker
of the sovereignty of God
speaker
that, you know,
speaker
this is our father, our mother's
speaker
world.
speaker
And I made that point
speaker
and Alvin said,
speaker
Well, Joanna, if you're right about
speaker
that, I don't want to have a darn
speaker
thing to do with your God.
speaker
And I said, Wow.
speaker
He said,
speaker
I just think of the number
speaker
6 million
speaker
and if God is in charge,
speaker
why does such
speaker
a massive tragedy
speaker
occur? And not only that one,
speaker
but the others.
speaker
And I said,
speaker
you know, I start to go into
speaker
freedom and all that.
speaker
And he said,
speaker
Well, I'll tell you what I think, after I'd mumbled and
speaker
stumbled around a little bit.
speaker
He said,
speaker
I look at it this way.
speaker
There's a creator.
speaker
The world was created.
speaker
Humans were created.
speaker
And the creator says, I'm
speaker
giving it to you.
speaker
It's up to you what you do with it.
speaker
That was a good conversation.
speaker
I've had a very rich and
speaker
interesting life
speaker
and meaningful
speaker
ministry. It's been
speaker
and many mornings when I wake
speaker
up and think, no
speaker
matter what happens today,
speaker
if not today's
speaker
the day my life will end I'm just
speaker
filled
speaker
up with gratitude.
speaker
I can't imagine that little
speaker
girl preaching to her
speaker
dolls, having
speaker
been blessed and just knowing
speaker
so many fabulous people and
speaker
the congregations that I've served.
speaker
I've loved being a pastor.
speaker
And I love
speaker
those moments when,
speaker
you know, I just have the sense that
speaker
I am
speaker
a conduit.
speaker
But there is a message coming
speaker
from another realm.
speaker
And somehow I got to be
speaker
today at least a conduit
speaker
of realities
speaker
that can
speaker
change everything.
speaker
Oh, that's so good.
speaker
Don't you feel that way?
speaker
Yeah. Sometimes.
speaker
Sometimes.
speaker
Certainly not all
speaker
the time.
speaker
Sometimes it's Oh, Lord, why am I
speaker
here?
speaker
Yes, yes, yes.
speaker
So I'm
speaker
I'm I'm going to take
speaker
you the next
speaker
you know, these these interfaith
speaker
conversations echo in
speaker
some ways that the conversations you
speaker
had in the church
speaker
with people who were on
speaker
the different theological planes,
speaker
trying to find ways
speaker
to find commonalities
speaker
so that we could keep the church
speaker
from tearing apart in this 40
speaker
year struggle over fully,
speaker
including LGBTQ
speaker
Presbyterians in leadership and
speaker
in ordained leadership and then for
speaker
marriage.
speaker
And I'm curious how you got involved
speaker
with with with that struggle.
speaker
What led you to see that
speaker
as a as one of your justice issues
speaker
that you wanted to participate in
speaker
and take a leadership role in?
speaker
There was a young woman who visited
speaker
Central when I was just
speaker
starting out.
speaker
She came to see me
speaker
troubled.
speaker
She'd grown up in a very
speaker
conservative family in a
speaker
conservative church,
speaker
and her family had sent her
speaker
away to
speaker
I want to say it was L'Abri
speaker
someplace in
speaker
Switzerland or somewhere where,
speaker
you know, you go and you get
speaker
transformed if you're
speaker
having homosexual
speaker
tendencies.
speaker
And so she'd been there and she'd
speaker
come back and she says,
speaker
you know, I'm really nothing
speaker
changed.
speaker
I realize now that I'm home
speaker
and I don't see how God can
speaker
love me.
speaker
I mean, she I mean, you
speaker
know, she that's where she was.
speaker
You know, I'm
speaker
sure I displease God, but I don't
speaker
I'm helpless.
speaker
So I got her with another
speaker
therapist. But she, you know, she
speaker
kept talking to me.
speaker
She obviously liked and respected
speaker
me.
speaker
And but she kept sort
speaker
of going downhill.
speaker
And one day after she'd been
speaker
to my office, she went
speaker
home and got
speaker
a gun and shot herself.
speaker
She didn't die, but she was pretty
speaker
wounded on
speaker
all levels.
speaker
But that
speaker
terrible experience so
speaker
it became a crucible for her
speaker
to realize
speaker
that. she was
speaker
who she was and
speaker
she met someone.
speaker
And they've been together
speaker
now 30,
speaker
35 years.
speaker
Years pass.
speaker
She is now working
speaker
at AID Atlanta.
speaker
And she called me and she I'd just
speaker
gone to Trinity.
speaker
I mean, it was like October and I'd
speaker
gone to Trinity at the end of
speaker
August.
speaker
And she said, I'm wondering
speaker
if you would be willing
speaker
to have a service of hope
speaker
and healing for people with AIDS
speaker
at Trinity.
speaker
Oh,
speaker
dammit Catherine I just got here, it
speaker
was 1991.
speaker
Oh,
speaker
she said, I know, I know.
speaker
I said,
speaker
I've got to do it.
speaker
We got to do it, we can't not do it.
speaker
And she chuckled and she said,
speaker
I was hoping you'd say that.
speaker
I was counting on you.
speaker
And now, tell you the surprise,
speaker
Desmond Tutu is going to be
speaker
speaking.
speaker
And we had this great
speaker
interfaith service.
speaker
And Desmond Tutu spoke and the
speaker
sanctuary was
speaker
packed to the gills.
speaker
And it was just a
speaker
magnificent thing.
speaker
At Central,
speaker
so many members
speaker
there. This was, you know,
speaker
sort of the Bill Clinton-y deal.
speaker
We all know you're gay and you know
speaker
you're gay, but we're not ever going
speaker
to talk about your being gay.
speaker
And, you know, we were sort of
speaker
moving as a society
speaker
beyond that.
speaker
And yeah, my heart
speaker
just went out to gay people.
speaker
And Catherine, you
speaker
know that if the church
speaker
has communicated to this
speaker
excellent person, you're
speaker
a piece of trash,
speaker
then something is deeply,
speaker
horribly wrong with
speaker
the church.
speaker
So
speaker
time passes.
speaker
And our wonderful daughter,
speaker
Elizabeth several
speaker
years later comes
speaker
back to Atlanta for my mother's
speaker
funeral, actually.
speaker
And she and Al and I are sitting
speaker
outside late
speaker
one afternoon and Elizabeth says,
speaker
I'm moving.
speaker
She lives in L.A.
speaker
She was living then I think, in
speaker
North Hollywood.
speaker
I said oh okay where she had an
speaker
apartment there.
speaker
I said are you staying in North
speaker
Hollywood or are you going she said I'm moving to so and so.
speaker
So I said, Well, that
speaker
sounds fun.
speaker
Do you know anybody in that area?
speaker
She said, Well, yes,
speaker
the person that I'm going to be
speaker
living with.
speaker
Her name is Teresa
speaker
and she's more than a roommate.
speaker
Well, there you go.
speaker
There you go.
speaker
Al and I were probably
speaker
not as surprised as it
speaker
sounds as if we were.
speaker
Elizabeth had dated in
speaker
high school.
speaker
Very smart, totally wonderful
speaker
person, Elizabeth Adams.
speaker
But here she was.
speaker
And we, of course,
speaker
embraced her.
speaker
And from that moment on,
speaker
I didn't realize
speaker
at the time sort
speaker
of the shock
speaker
of getting used to it because,
speaker
you know, back to conventional,
speaker
it's a lot about me that's
speaker
conventional. I've been married 50
speaker
years.
speaker
I've you know, there's a lot
speaker
about me that's not but a lot about
speaker
me that is. And particularly as a
speaker
woman, you know, and I
speaker
do all these weddings and here comes
speaker
the beautiful bride
speaker
in her wedding dress in the arm
speaker
of her father that, remember, this
speaker
was the nineties, not now.
speaker
And, you know, just my wedding
speaker
dress was upstairs you know waiting
speaker
for Elizabeth to wear it in the
speaker
attic, you know, that kind of thing.
speaker
So you had the,
speaker
you know, I grieved over
speaker
I grieved over
speaker
the fact that, you know,
speaker
we were going to she
speaker
was put in this world in a
speaker
in a way that she is.
speaker
And
speaker
at the time I was I'd been in
speaker
several ministers' groups I was a
speaker
group with
speaker
Bob Bohl, John Buchanan,
speaker
a very, very close friend
speaker
of John's.
speaker
And.
speaker
I won't go into naming names,
speaker
but, you know, just a lot of
speaker
excellent leaders in the church.
speaker
Both.
speaker
You know, headquarters
speaker
and in parishes
speaker
and around.
speaker
Just knew we could not bring
speaker
the field open
speaker
to the Presbyterian Lay Committee.
speaker
No, we don't need to start another
speaker
group. That's, you know, that's not
speaker
the Presbyterian way.
speaker
But we became
speaker
convinced that if we didn't
speaker
stop the tanks,
speaker
they were going to mow down
speaker
everybody in their way, everybody
speaker
who was gay or
speaker
anything.
speaker
So we formed the Covenant Network.
speaker
And, you know, I was one of the
speaker
founders and
speaker
ended up being,
speaker
I think, the second
speaker
no, maybe the
speaker
second or third,
speaker
you know, co moderators with Gene
speaker
Bay.
speaker
And,
speaker
you know, we just felt as if
speaker
we all have a role to play
speaker
different groups.
speaker
Some are more
speaker
radicalized or
speaker
have different strategies, but
speaker
we thought that we might give
speaker
some because all of us
speaker
were pretty much respected people
speaker
in the denomination that
speaker
we might give a help with
speaker
with the credence,
speaker
you know?
speaker
You know, this isn't just about
speaker
far out.
speaker
This is about us.
speaker
It's about our families.
speaker
It's about our friends.
speaker
It's about justice.
speaker
But I just loved the Covenant
speaker
Network and I adored Pam.
speaker
And I really was kind of the leader
speaker
down here in Georgia.
speaker
And thank God I was at Trinity
speaker
and Trinity was great.
speaker
I remember saying,
speaker
you know, I
speaker
want to suggest that we support the
speaker
Covenant Network.
speaker
And, you know, let's start by giving
speaker
them, I don't know, 5,000 dollars.
speaker
And one of the elders stood up and
speaker
said, Madam moderator,
speaker
I reject that idea.
speaker
I would like to say that we give
speaker
the Covenant Network 10,000 dollars
speaker
and that whole session.
speaker
And the church, of course, did not
speaker
agree with me.
speaker
You know, not every I'd say it was
speaker
half and half, but I always,
speaker
Beth, when preached about it or
speaker
spoke about it I
speaker
always imagined
speaker
a congregation that consisted
speaker
of people who I loved,
speaker
who I knew were at a totally
speaker
different place.
speaker
And so I never stepped on.
speaker
I really saw and still
speaker
see my my,
speaker
the place I come
speaker
as being a bridge builder
speaker
in the church and
speaker
in society.
speaker
Of course, there isn't even a bridge
speaker
to build in so many ways now.
speaker
But I was always I didn't
speaker
want to protest the business
speaker
community. I wanted to co-op
speaker
the business community about
speaker
homelessness.
speaker
And I didn't want to say to some of
speaker
my favorite parishioners at
speaker
Trinity, Well, you're just
speaker
lousy slugs for
speaker
not being with it.
speaker
And, you know, I've just it's
speaker
just been a
speaker
real blessing.
speaker
Now, I'm not connected with
speaker
it.
speaker
Yeah, I have.
speaker
I'm of the opinion,
speaker
and I know it's not politically
speaker
correct now.
speaker
But it was we were
speaker
formed for one purpose
speaker
to maintain the unity of the church
speaker
and to get the amendment
speaker
out of the Book of Order.
speaker
And I think to, you know, go
speaker
broader and work on
speaker
various things.
speaker
I would not I would not just
speaker
it's not that I don't think those
speaker
things should be worked on.
speaker
But I just feel like it's sort of
speaker
changing the original covenant.
speaker
And in the late nineties and early
speaker
2000s, you were part of
speaker
conversations. And Joe Small in the
speaker
Office of Worship and Theology,
speaker
helped organize
speaker
the head folks like you.
speaker
And then on the other side you had
speaker
Jack Haberer and
speaker
Jerry Andrews.
speaker
Oh yeah.
speaker
So you had this bringing together
speaker
people who were who were who took
speaker
seriously how do we keep the church
speaker
together, even though we don't
speaker
theologically see things?
speaker
And if I'm
speaker
right, most of those pastors have
speaker
all remain within the congregation,
speaker
within the denomination.
speaker
I think that's right.
speaker
What were those conversations like
speaker
and what fruit do you see
speaker
might have been born out of them?
speaker
What this whole country needs so
speaker
desperately now
speaker
that you are not a monster.
speaker
And I'm
speaker
not a monster.
speaker
You
speaker
get to understand one
speaker
another's worldview.
speaker
You know, I was on
speaker
the committee that wrote
speaker
the brief statement of faith that
speaker
was such a wonderful
speaker
experience chaired by Jack Stotts
speaker
and Jane Dempsey.
speaker
That was gah-lee was great.
speaker
And there was a fellow on the
speaker
committee named Doug Harper, very
speaker
conservative pastor from
speaker
Texas. And I haven't kept up
speaker
with Doug, but we
speaker
were together for eight years, and
speaker
he actually helped me get over
speaker
a panic attack I
speaker
had on the
speaker
steps going up to the big slide
speaker
at Mo-Ranch.
speaker
So it was the General Assembly.
speaker
We always went to the General
speaker
Assembly and we were chatting
speaker
in the hall and, you know, the
speaker
the the fellows
speaker
who were even above Jerry
speaker
Andrews, you know, the ultimate
speaker
conservatives were all coming by
speaker
and speaking to Doug and Doug would
speaker
introduce me and I said, gah-lee,
speaker
I feel like I'm,
speaker
you know, meeting, you know,
speaker
everybody on the
speaker
FBI's most wanted list.
speaker
You know, you
speaker
must be a popular man.
speaker
And Doug said
speaker
they see me talking to you
speaker
and they want to
speaker
connect with you
speaker
because they don't trust
speaker
or like you.
speaker
And I said.
speaker
Well, I don't know what
speaker
to do about that.
speaker
And he said, Well, I
speaker
do what I
speaker
tell them when they start
speaker
criticizing you, said
speaker
I don't know how your friends,
speaker
but I know you love Jesus as
speaker
much as I do.
speaker
And you know, Jerry Andrews
speaker
was my installation
speaker
committee at Fourth Pres,
speaker
and I had a very cordial
speaker
relationship with Jerry and
speaker
Jerry, Jack and, you know,
speaker
people with integrity.
speaker
And to me
speaker
right now, I'm involved with
speaker
something called Better Angels,
speaker
started by David Blankenhorn,
speaker
where we're trying
speaker
to build bridges in the country
speaker
and various places in the country
speaker
where Trump supporters
speaker
and Clinton supporters can
speaker
come together and have
speaker
get to know one another.
speaker
And, you know, no one leaves
speaker
having changed his or her mind
speaker
about the issues,
speaker
but they have changed their minds
speaker
that these are about
speaker
demonizing the other.
speaker
And that's, you know, hats
speaker
off to Joe Small.
speaker
Joe's pretty conservative.
speaker
But I always I've always
speaker
had the greatest respect for him
speaker
because, you know,
speaker
he's he's very theologically
speaker
astute and his ecclesiology
speaker
is great and he knows
speaker
stuff I don't know and need to know.
speaker
And that's just, you know, I,
speaker
I can't go to the extremes.
speaker
But when it comes to
speaker
inclusion of GLBT
speaker
people,
speaker
since I have retired and I've
speaker
retired three times, but this time I
speaker
think for good,
speaker
I have got I have gone to the
speaker
extreme.
speaker
I mean, I can't
speaker
stand
speaker
to even hear anybody
speaker
talk about
speaker
gay people in category
speaker
I I, how you
speaker
could do that
speaker
to other human beings.
speaker
I mean, honestly, I get up and
speaker
leave conversations when they're
speaker
well-meaning Presbyterians will
speaker
let me talk about this guy
speaker
I knew who was on the football team
speaker
who turned out to be gay.
speaker
And then someone else says, Well,
speaker
and gay is this, and gay is that.
speaker
I'm in a leaders group where they
speaker
just objectify.
speaker
I say, Just hush.
speaker
You know, what in the world's the
speaker
matter with you?
speaker
And my sister in law a
speaker
couple of years ago.
speaker
We were sitting beside each other at
speaker
a dinner.
speaker
And she was talking about this
speaker
megachurch she started to go
speaker
to.
speaker
I said, Well, that sounds good.
speaker
The message is a good one, she said
speaker
oh it helps me so much.
speaker
And I said, Well,
speaker
you know, are there all kinds
speaker
of people? They're welcome?
speaker
And she said, Well, I don't know
speaker
what you're talking about. I said well,
speaker
there are you know, 6000
speaker
people. You just, tell me about them.
speaker
She said, you mean are there gay
speaker
people there?
speaker
And I said, Well, yeah, that would I
speaker
would say so
speaker
that would be a part of my question.
speaker
Well and she said, I don't think
speaker
they'd feel very comfortable there.
speaker
She said, I'm in a Bible study and
speaker
this girl that I
speaker
get together with to talk about
speaker
scripture.
speaker
She told me something that really
speaker
helped the other day.
speaker
She told me, you know,
speaker
Tamara, we're
speaker
all sinners.
speaker
It's just a question of
speaker
which sin.
speaker
And she was sitting on my left
speaker
and I put my arm on the back
speaker
of her chair and leaned
speaker
over to her right
speaker
ear.
speaker
And I said, I
speaker
need to tell you something.
speaker
I'm horrified
speaker
that you could have been the aunt
speaker
of the most outstanding
speaker
human being known
speaker
as Elizabeth Adams.
speaker
And even if she weren't outstanding,
speaker
how you could say that.
speaker
And this is the next thing
speaker
I'm going to say.
speaker
If you ever want to see
speaker
me or your brother
speaker
or Elizabeth or Sam
speaker
again, you will never
speaker
say anything remotely
speaker
like that.
speaker
Do you understand?
speaker
And then I got up and left the
speaker
table. I'm telling I have
speaker
gotten I you know,
speaker
I try to be irenic, but I
speaker
that has pushed me over
speaker
that because.
speaker
And I just think.
speaker
I just think how horrible
speaker
it would be to have people.
speaker
I mean, I just think about
speaker
Elizabeth, who I just know so
speaker
well and
speaker
you know, that you just have to go
speaker
around knowing that there are
speaker
people around judging
speaker
your very existence.
speaker
You know, that expression
speaker
well pardon me for living
speaker
honestly.
speaker
Oh, I'm actually afraid I'm going to
speaker
do something, I'm not going to hit anybody but,
speaker
you know, I just can't take it
speaker
anymore.
speaker
I'll tell you something that
speaker
happened.
speaker
I don't know when it was.
speaker
We can we can
speaker
look it up.
speaker
But we were at a big,
speaker
fancy dinner party
speaker
at the home of some very wealthy
speaker
Trinity members when I was pastor
speaker
there, very
speaker
elegant party.
speaker
And I would say there were maybe
speaker
ten people at the table,
speaker
maybe 12.
speaker
And the fellow down the table from
speaker
us his name was Bob
speaker
was making conversation
speaker
and he said, Has anybody
speaker
seen the
speaker
cover of Time Magazine this
speaker
week?
speaker
And he said well I'll tell you whose
speaker
picture's on the cover
speaker
that dyke Ellen
speaker
DeGeneres.
speaker
So Al, who's eating his salad,
speaker
pushes
speaker
his chair back,
speaker
gets up
speaker
and says, Bob,
speaker
whether you are aware or
speaker
not,
speaker
Joanna and I are the proud
speaker
parents of an absolutely
speaker
wonderful daughter
speaker
who is lesbian.
speaker
And you must withdraw
speaker
that comment.
speaker
Across the table was a wonderful,
speaker
wonderful lady.
speaker
Oh, my goodness.
speaker
I won't go into that.
speaker
She's wonderful.
speaker
Very wealthy, prominent person in
speaker
Atlanta.
speaker
The table, dead silence.
speaker
And she said something
speaker
to the effect, Well, Al,
speaker
so good for you to share.
speaker
And then she knew she
speaker
was a wonderful society lady.
speaker
Had to say the next thing
speaker
that would move the conversation.
speaker
I've never loved anybody
speaker
more in my life.
speaker
And that night, by the time we got
speaker
home, Bob had
speaker
left a message on our machine,
speaker
and he was weeping.
speaker
He said that was one of
speaker
the most disgraceful
speaker
things I've ever done,
speaker
and there's no way
speaker
I can apologize enough.
speaker
And we remain friends.
speaker
I'm a, you know, I'm Facebook
speaker
friends with his wife,
speaker
you know.
speaker
There you go.
speaker
So how does this influence
speaker
your preaching as you and
speaker
from the time you were you were a
speaker
young preacher, you were publishing
speaker
articles on preaching, your
speaker
sermons were being published.
speaker
You were you know invited around the
speaker
country.
speaker
How does this drive for
speaker
truth telling?
speaker
Well, it helps.
speaker
You know, how does that, how does
speaker
that shape your
speaker
your preaching or does it?
speaker
I used to be
speaker
more self-righteous than I am
speaker
that I know I sounded pretty
speaker
self-righteous about GLBT
speaker
people
speaker
and I.
speaker
It's influenced my preaching
speaker
a lot
speaker
in that I care about things
speaker
and I want to be able
speaker
to help people open
speaker
up, you know?
speaker
My last parish
speaker
call was as the interim senior
speaker
pastor of First Presbyterian Church
speaker
here, which is a church that
speaker
I would say is is
speaker
centrist to conservative.
speaker
I absolutely loved it.
speaker
And by the way, people who would
speaker
identify as conservative, usually
speaker
like me as much or more than
speaker
the liberals do, because the
speaker
liberals want me to be more
speaker
liberal. And me, I'm
speaker
always thinking, well, what good
speaker
would it do if we go to this church
speaker
and they go to another church and we
speaker
never talk?
speaker
But.
speaker
You know, I preached a sermon on gay
speaker
marriage at First Presbyterian
speaker
and did it in a in a pastoral
speaker
way.
speaker
You know, I'd just done a funeral
speaker
for a
speaker
wonderful lady who had been
speaker
with her partner, Mary
speaker
and Ernestine. They'd been together
speaker
61 years
speaker
and they never, ever
speaker
were able to get married.
speaker
Why couldn't you know,
speaker
why couldn't wedding bells
speaker
have rung for them?
speaker
I try to not
speaker
be shrill
speaker
or overbearing.
speaker
I try to be a biblical
speaker
preacher.
speaker
I remember preaching at Massanetta
speaker
Springs the last
speaker
time. I'm not going to go back there
speaker
though my grandson
speaker
loves Massanetta Springs, loves the,
speaker
but I preached a sermon
speaker
and this was just I don't know
speaker
how many years ago, not too many, on
speaker
hospitality.
speaker
My main illustration
speaker
came from
speaker
going back to the eighties,
speaker
the guy who had been the moderator
speaker
had heard me preach at General
speaker
Assembly, and I preached about
speaker
four times in a row that was back
speaker
in the day.
speaker
And he invited me to come to
speaker
his church in Texas,
speaker
which is right on the border, to
speaker
preach and lead something.
speaker
So I did. And I was amazed
speaker
to learn that the church's
speaker
main mission was
speaker
with regard to the babies
speaker
whose mothers had,
speaker
you know, come swimming
speaker
across the river,
speaker
you know, so that their babies could
speaker
be born in the United States.
speaker
So I told that story,
speaker
which is just astonishing in
speaker
this conservative town in Texas.
speaker
I'm sure it was a conservative
speaker
church,
speaker
and
speaker
I just talked about
speaker
radical hospitality of God.
speaker
I don't even know whether I used the
speaker
word radical.
speaker
Not a soul spoke to me
speaker
after I preached that sermon.
speaker
Because, you know, immigration was
speaker
getting hot.
speaker
And certainly, you know, we had this
speaker
woman here telling us
speaker
something about the radical grace of
speaker
God. That
speaker
was just recently, I mean, you know,
speaker
the last three or four years.
speaker
So, you know,
speaker
I.
speaker
I remember, particularly with regard
speaker
to inclusion.
speaker
Realizing
speaker
that the only one I really
speaker
needed to please was my
speaker
Creator.
speaker
My Father.
speaker
I never had trouble thinking of God
speaker
as Father or Mother.
speaker
And and myself.
speaker
Can I look myself
speaker
in the face, in the mirror
speaker
and say, well for you Joanna, this was a moment and
speaker
you didn't pull your punches?
speaker
And I think if I'm lined up
speaker
with God's purposes.
speaker
I think.
speaker
Oh, yes.
speaker
If you don't do something now,
speaker
then you know to hell with you.
speaker
And ministers are so
speaker
cautious
speaker
these days until
speaker
it just drives me
speaker
crazy every time I
speaker
go to hear a sermon and I
speaker
go to church every Sunday.
speaker
Here there we do.
speaker
I'm so struck.
speaker
Here's one of my tests for a sermon.
speaker
Could you have preached the sermon
speaker
in 1978?
speaker
Could you have preached it
speaker
in 2001?
speaker
And if so, then you're not
speaker
doing your job.
speaker
You know, you're you're totally
speaker
disconnected. I
speaker
a
speaker
you know, we all have our own
speaker
pilgrimage.
speaker
I am theologically
speaker
would not call myself in
speaker
the liberal camp.
speaker
You know, I led a Macedonian
speaker
group for three years with Tom
speaker
Tewell after I retired
speaker
the first time.
speaker
And I remember in one of our
speaker
conversations.
speaker
We were talking about preaching,
speaker
there's 16 pastors in the group.
speaker
And I said, you know, my
speaker
great fear when I went to seminary
speaker
was that I might lose my faith,
speaker
you know, because, you know, you
speaker
can't if you stop believing it,
speaker
you know,
speaker
then you're in trouble.
speaker
And I knew that was the risk.
speaker
It's a risk for all of us.
speaker
I said, But look, if
speaker
you really
speaker
become convinced
speaker
that God did not raise Christ
speaker
from the dead,
speaker
if you really think
speaker
it's all a myth,
speaker
then go sell insurance
speaker
or cars.
speaker
But you took a vow
speaker
to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus
speaker
Christ.
speaker
And what's happened to me
speaker
over the years is
speaker
the more I've studied and the more
speaker
I preached, and the more I've lived
speaker
that spiritual gift of
speaker
faith.
speaker
I've just been in a place
speaker
where God has just
speaker
poured it out in spoons full.
speaker
Do you still feel that that physical
speaker
hunger that you felt when
speaker
you first went to seminary?
speaker
No, I feel
speaker
I feel more deeply,
speaker
but I feel nourished.
speaker
And one of the main reasons I keep
speaker
going to church is that
speaker
I love the liturgy.
speaker
I have to say I don't know whether,
speaker
you know David Lewicki,
speaker
but he I think is
speaker
the best preacher
speaker
today in the PC(USA)
speaker
and his oh, he's so
speaker
good, so smart,
speaker
so real, very authentic.
speaker
And see I think people forgive you
speaker
anything if they know
speaker
that you're not standing
speaker
up like Jeremiah saying
speaker
you, you know, you are
speaker
rotten losers if you don't
speaker
see it my way.
speaker
You know, he's he's working
speaker
through it and helps you
speaker
do the same.
speaker
So I love him
speaker
the the church now is a great
speaker
church, it's you know, Al and I
speaker
are just a different place now.
speaker
You know, we're not
speaker
the struggling young couple
speaker
we were.
speaker
But I love to go hear him preach.
speaker
So is there. I know we haven't.
speaker
There's so much we can cover, but
speaker
there's limits to energy and time.
speaker
Is there any anything else you want
speaker
to share?
speaker
I think the need
speaker
for public
speaker
voices from
speaker
people of the Christian faith,
speaker
people needing to hear
speaker
it. People are longing
speaker
to hear it.
speaker
And my concern is that
speaker
we're just circling the wagons.
speaker
And I'll just agree, oh isn't it awful isn't it
speaker
terrible, terrible, terrible most
speaker
other people thought.
speaker
But, you know,
speaker
show us as way forward
speaker
in a non self-righteous way.
speaker
Help us remember
speaker
and reclaim
speaker
the great values
speaker
that underlie
speaker
religious traditions and help
speaker
these societies.
speaker
That. That's my yearning.
speaker
And
speaker
I just am very concerned
speaker
that because of
speaker
fear of being judged
speaker
or thrown
speaker
out, that you have
speaker
two kids in college or
speaker
whatever, that, you know,
speaker
that we've lost our
speaker
voice and our moral authority.
speaker
So here, you know, you hear.
speaker
You go to church, you hear great
speaker
stories about,
speaker
I don't know, coaches
speaker
or,
speaker
wild, long, long, long anecdotes.
speaker
Hoping that God will show up
speaker
somewhere.
speaker
It's like you're presenting
speaker
something,
speaker
but you're not
speaker
doing that.
speaker
I want if I could get a copy
speaker
of some of the blogs
speaker
that I wrote?
speaker
I'd love to share those with you,
speaker
because that was the four of us
speaker
really.
speaker
That would be wonderful.
speaker
Really wanting to speak to the
speaker
broader community.
speaker
That will be fantastic.
speaker
And I get still get asked
speaker
to you know, pray at all kind
speaker
of things in Atlanta.
speaker
You are one of Atlanta's 45 favorite
speaker
people.
speaker
But I don't know who's
speaker
coming behind me.
speaker
I don't know who's coming behind me.
speaker
You know, I want to be generative.
speaker
But I know there are a lot of good,
speaker
smart women, but they are not
speaker
involved in Atlanta.
speaker
But they're not involved in
speaker
the civic life.
speaker
You know, you've got that
speaker
bifurcation, you've got the,
speaker
you know, by golly if I'm going to
speaker
pray
speaker
at the mayor's inauguration.
speaker
And I'm a Christian.
speaker
I'm going to pray in Christ's name.
speaker
You know, you got that stupid
speaker
crew.
speaker
So I think a lot of,
speaker
you know, they're leaving out the
speaker
religious element because
speaker
you don't know what what you're
speaker
going to get.
speaker
But thank
speaker
you for a good conversation.
speaker
I appreciate your wonderful
speaker
questioning.
speaker
And and you're listening.
speaker
I've enjoyed it.
speaker
Fantastic.
speaker
Thank you.

In collections

Details

Title: Joanna Adams oral history, 2017.
Description: Joanna Moseley Adams, Presbyterian minister, was born October 17, 1944 in Atlanta, Georgia. She attended Columbia Theological Seminary and was ordained in 1979. She served Central Presbyterian Church (Atlanta, Ga.), North Decatur Presbyterian Church (Decatur, Ga.), and Trinity Presbyterian Church (Atlanta, Ga.), before spending two years as co-pastor alongside John Buchanan at Fourth Presbyterian Church (Chicago, Ill.). From 1996 on she was an organizer for and moderator of the Covenant Network of Presbyterians. She retired in 2010.
Creator: Hessel, Beth Shalom. (interviewer)
Adams, Joanna. (interviewee)
Date: 2017
August 16, 2017
Type of resource: sound recording-nonmusical
Genre: interviews
oral histories
sound recordings
Form: born digital
Extent: 1.03 GB (1 WAV file)
Subject names: Adams, Joanna.
Covenant Network of Presbyterians.
Trinity Presbyterian Church (Atlanta, Ga.)
North Decatur Presbyterian Church (Decatur, Ga.)
Central Presbyterian Church (Atlanta, Ga.)
Topics: Homosexuality--Religious aspects--Presbyterian Church.
Ordination of gays.
Ordination of lesbians.
Presbyterian women.
Ecumenical movement.
Social justice--Religious aspects--Presbyterian Church.
Interfaith worship.
Geographic subjects: North and Central America--United States--Georgia--Fulton--Atlanta
North and Central America--United States--Georgia--DeKalb--Atlanta
Rights status: IN COPYRIGHT - NON-COMMERCIAL USE PERMITTED; http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/
Physical location: ARCHIVES 17-0902; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA
Related item: Presbyterian Historical Society oral histories, 2017.--http://prestohost68.inmagic.com/Presto/content/Detail.aspx?ctID=Y2RiNWNk...
Identifier (local): 17-0902_adams_04
PID (Persistent Identifier): islandora:286239

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