Ray Bagnuolo oral history, 2021.

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    All right, Ray.
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    Well, I was going to go ahead and
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    get started here by asking
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    if you can tell me about the first
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    time you ever heard about the More
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    Light movement.
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    If you can remember, even
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    just when you first heard that there
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    was like a group of people
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    advocating for LGBTQ
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    inclusion in the Presbyterian
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    Church.
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    Yeah, it probably goes back
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    to the early 1990s,
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    somewhere around ninety four ninety
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    five.
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    It was a time where
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    there I didn't really know about
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    More Light movement or anything else
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    for that matter.
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    I had been teaching
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    and part of the
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    Roman Catholic tradition, which
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    I was brought up into.
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    After a period of time in my early
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    thirties, I, really
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    would, despite all of my attempts
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    to try and reconcile
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    myself with the Roman Catholic
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    faith.
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    I just couldn't do it, and I
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    was doing more harm to myself than
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    anybody else was doing to me.
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    And for a whole bunch of reasons,
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    that could be an entirely
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    separate conversation that I
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    is important to have.
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    But
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    I just left and I had
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    started teaching and
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    I had also found
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    myself fortunately in
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    in recovery at that point.
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    It turns out I probably was one of
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    those people that was never meant to
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    drink, but I didn't know it at the
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    time. And so by the time
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    I found myself teaching
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    a few years later, I had been
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    sober for quite a while and
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    was teaching teaching in middle
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    school and high school.
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    And I thought to myself, You know
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    what?
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    This this, church stuff just doesn't
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    work.
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    I'm not going anyplace where I'm not
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    welcome.
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    And it wasn't just about being queer
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    or gay. I mean, just the way that
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    people were
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    prevented from receiving Holy
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    Communion, for example, because
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    maybe they were divorced or
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    some other criteria, and I kept
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    thinking we're
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    the people that need that table
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    and so forth. So I I
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    was doing fine. I just figured I had
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    my my sobriety and the program I
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    was in. It was very spiritual, it
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    was working for me and I was
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    teaching. And in course
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    of teaching, we had a conference
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    at Stony Brook Conference Center,
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    the New York state
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    had developed new English language
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    arts protocols.
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    So they were they were rolling them
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    out.
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    And as an English teacher at the
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    time, in seventh grade,
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    we went to Stony Brook.
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    And while I was there, I saw a sign
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    that said If you're a lesbian, gay,
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    bisexual, transgender
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    and you would like to get together
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    with people like you, join us
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    for the first ever and I'm looking
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    at this thing and I go what what what because
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    I really wasn't out at the time,
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    but I was maybe mid-thirties
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    a little bit later and I certainly
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    had figured things out.
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    But I in public to
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    even get the words
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    gay out, I couldn't get the G out,
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    and I was scared to death, frankly,
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    because everything I knew about
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    being who I was was vilified
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    and a lot
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    of pointed fingers at me and
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    you know, we love you, we hate your
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    sin, which is just another way of
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    saying you're really messed up
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    because your sin is much worse than
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    ours.
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    And so I I just wasn't
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    about to put myself out there.
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    And I think
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    probably the hard part of all
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    of that because of the way I've been
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    brought up the religious dogma that
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    I have been taught
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    that this business of being rejected
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    had huge consequences
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    both here and in the life after.
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    And I just I didn't
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    even know how to talk about that
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    with people.
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    But here I was at this conference,
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    and here was this poster.
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    And so I did a conference, and then
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    I called them up and I got Bill
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    Palmer, who was the guy who was
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    running the center at the time.
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    He and his wife Marge.
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    And I called up and I said, "Listen,
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    I saw this sign and I'm
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    I'm teaching in high school and I'm
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    gay, and I'm trying to figure out
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    how to integrate my life and how
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    to do this and have some meaning
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    that I've been looking for for a
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    long time.
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    So I'm interested in this.
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    And if you'd like some help, I'd
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    like to help, but I
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    just want to make sure when I get
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    there, you're not going to start thumping
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    me over the head with the Bible,"
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    and he started to laugh as
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    a lot of people had I told that
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    story.
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    That was the beginning because, as
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    it turned out, that conference did
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    not get off the ground.
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    There was a lot of work that went
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    into it. It was very good.
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    But even then, the problem
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    was how do you tell your friends at
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    school where you're going?
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    How do you get a permission slip
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    from your parents to permit you to
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    go to this thing if you're
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    not out or if you're not, if
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    you're questioning? And so it just
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    it was ahead of its time, but there
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    was a lot of good work that was done
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    in the process.
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    And Bill said to me at the end
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    of one of the summers as I was
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    working on this, he said, "I signed
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    up for a conference."
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    I said, "What?" He says, "Yeah,
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    what are you doing Labor Day
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    weekend?" I said nothing.
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    He said, "Are you coming here?" I
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    had no idea what it was.
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    Well, it turns out it was That All
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    May Freely Serve.
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    And That All May Freely Serve
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    is what I really came into contact
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    with. That preceded, in many
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    ways, some of the other
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    movements within the church.
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    And at this conference, there was
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    Janie Spahr, there was Ginny
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    Davidson, there was Chris Glaser.
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    There were all these people I had no
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    idea who they were.
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    I had no idea why I was there.
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    I didn't know what a Protestant was,
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    let alone a Presbyterian.
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    All I knew is that I'm sitting there
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    listening to these people, talk
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    about working in the church
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    to try and change it so that it
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    could be more welcoming and
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    inclusive and the full work and
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    worship of the church for people who
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    are LGBTQ, whatever the
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    phraseology was we had at the time,
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    I use queer now just so I don't have
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    to go through all the letters
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    and then forget one and be in
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    trouble forever.
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    And at one point it was three days
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    and I was I was in awe
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    and at one point.
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    Ginny, Ginny Davidson came up to
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    me, and Ginny, of course, has a long
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    history in Presbyterian Church in
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    this movement.
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    And she says, "So how are you
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    doing?" I said, Ginny,
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    you can change your church?"
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    And she laughed.
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    She says, "yes, we can."
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    And when I heard that
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    and having met some of these folks,
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    I thought to myself, if this is
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    going to happen, it's going to
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    happen here.
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    It can happen because, of course, in
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    the Roman Church, you're not going
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    to change anything and no matter
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    what it looks like, even though you
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    may think you are.
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    And then you find out that as far as
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    you've gone well, we can't bless
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    you, you know?
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    But we still love you and so forth.
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    So that was really
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    an awakening for me.
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    And then a little bit later, Janie
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    wandered over, You know, who is
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    this person? Here me?
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    And she,
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    of course, is such a welcoming
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    and affirming
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    person and deep friend today,
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    she said.
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    I told her a little bit of my story
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    and she said,
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    "Of course, God loves you, Honey."
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    And she didn't say anything after
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    that, she didn't say it's just your
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    sin or it's just this, she said, "Of
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    course God loves the honey."
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    And it was probably one
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    of the two or three most
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    powerful examples of unconditional
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    love I've ever
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    experienced in my life and this
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    particular one, it connected to me
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    deeply to a faith
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    that I always have.
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    I mean, I was one of those kids in
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    the church that,
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    you know, the mystery of God
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    and this place and the presence of
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    God and the goodness
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    and the potential for good.
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    And so many of the things that I was
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    taught that I just totally embraced
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    until that
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    embrace of me
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    went cold.
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    So that's that's how it began.
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    And from there,
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    I can trace not only
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    my beginning was in the Presbyterian
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    Church and the process of being
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    part of this movement,
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    but as it turns out,
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    the path I was about to take toward
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    ordination through some really
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    interesting times.
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    So that's how it started.
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    Thank you for sharing that that's a
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    that's a great story.
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    It's powerful to hear,
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    maybe before we go on to talk
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    about your path ordination, do you
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    mind just going back a little bit
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    and talking about growing up in
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    the Catholic Church?
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    It maybe just a little more about
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    when you kind of first felt a call
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    the ministry.
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    You've already touched on this but I
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    don't know if there's anything else
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    you want to elaborate on.
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    It's a very difficult topic Liz,
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    and it's not so much that I'm not
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    happy to share it, it's that I have
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    a particular role
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    and I have a bias
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    that I try not to let interfere with
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    things, but
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    I don't ever want anyone
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    to think I'm telling them
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    they're wrong, even though I think
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    they are.
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    Or even though I might say that
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    something the church is doing is
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    wrong. But there are a lot of people
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    who hold on to
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    the Roman Catholic Church
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    as mother church and they're queer
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    people, and they love it and they
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    would never leave it.
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    And even though I can't understand
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    that.
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    I don't, who I to judge them?
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    To use a well-worn quote.
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    So with that in mind,
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    I, growing up
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    in the church.
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    I loved it.
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    I loved it.
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    I.
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    I was just in awe.
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    And I think what I
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    have come to understand is part
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    of just my who I am.
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    Walking into the space
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    where this God that I heard nuns
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    talking about, a priest talking
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    about it, answered catechism
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    questions about it, all
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    of these wonderful things I
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    heard was
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    somehow there more present than
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    in other places for me.
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    You know, I didn't have this concept
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    of God's presence
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    in all things, let alone
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    the idea of a cosmic Christ.
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    So there was none of that there at
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    the time, but
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    the awe was.
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    And so I gravitated toward it
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    and I became an altar
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    boy.
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    I still remember some of the Latin.
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    The thought that went through my
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    mind is if I want to get close to
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    God, this is how you do it.
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    You become a priest.
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    So I grew up a little bit with that.
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    It didn't really fade
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    at all until
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    high school, a little bit late in my
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    in my grammar school year.
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    At that time, I was taught in the
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    parochial, parochial school system,
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    the Roman Catholic Church.
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    So grammar school
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    was one through eight and
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    it was like the same day over and
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    over again, except for eight years.
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    It was just it was the same.
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    It feels like it was all the same.
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    But it was a good education and good
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    people as far as I knew.
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    And then getting into high
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    school, I had the Marist Brothers in
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    St. Michael and they
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    they were something of a liberal
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    order for their time.
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    And we started exploring questions,
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    and then I also started to
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    understand some of the things
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    about my own sexuality, which
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    was confusing, to say
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    the least.
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    I can now look back and say, knew I
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    was probably could have said I was
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    gay if I had language for it when
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    I was eight years old.
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    But at this point in time, anything
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    that had to do with being gay or
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    attraction to men or any of that
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    stuff was just more of a phase.
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    And so I connected
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    that with being sinful.
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    And so that idea of being sinful
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    and I have to fight against this and
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    I would go to confession, I mean, I
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    had one.
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    And this was part of it because I'd
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    go to confession, for example, and
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    I'd go in and I'd say to the priest
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    all these things about what I was
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    doing and how I was
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    behaving.
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    And I mean things that today
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    I wouldn't even blink at, but at
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    that time.
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    And one priest would say, "Oh my
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    God, you know, it's terrible.
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    You have to come to me every time
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    you have one of these thoughts, line
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    up outside." And another priest
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    would say, "You know.
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    Maybe this is God's gift to you."
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    And I would get I would
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    have the opportunity over time
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    because of just the opportunity was
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    there to talk to people who were
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    religious in the church.
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    And in fact, when I went
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    to confession, I can remember going
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    to confession one day and I ended
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    with one of the priests that thought
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    I should do three rosaries,
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    which is about hundred and fifty
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    Hail Maries, our fathers and
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    everything else.
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    And I came out of there saying, I
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    just don't have the time. I went to
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    another priest said the same thing.
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    I got three Hail Maries, three our
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    fathers and I was out of there.
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    So this this discrepancy
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    in what
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    was being taught
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    individually, if you had access
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    to a priest who was open
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    and understood
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    better, maybe what you were going
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    through,
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    but then even on Sundays from the
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    pulpit a totally different message
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    was being given it.
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    There was this hypocrisy which was
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    a conflict, and I think in
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    there was an initial sense of this
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    injustice. I didn't have the word
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    for it, but how can you tell
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    me because I can talk to you one to
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    one that, you know, don't worry
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    about this. You're OK.
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    This may be who you are.
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    It may be a gift.
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    And yet all of the people that can't
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    get to you on a personal basis
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    and have this conversation, they're
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    hearing the same stuff from the
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    pulpit that I'm starting to
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    recognize is really harmful and
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    damaging people and hurtful
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    and driving folks into all sorts
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    of behavior, which was you know,
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    something that I don't blame my
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    drinking on that.
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    But it certainly was something that
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    for me provided a bit of a solution
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    to live through those
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    challenging times.
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    So I have a lot of trouble
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    with the church back then and I
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    I saw in the Presbyterian
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    Church, an
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    opportunity for change
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    and not really for me as
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    much as for, you
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    got to stop hurting people with this
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    teaching, you got to stop sending
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    people off into alcoholism
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    and drug abuse or being kicked out
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    of the house or feeling like they're
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    going to hell or into depression or
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    or even worse, to the point where
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    they can no longer live because they
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    believe God doesn't love them and
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    they can get so they take their own
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    life. How?
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    How can you do this?
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    How can you say people aren't
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    welcome here?
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    And that feeling has never changed?
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    And frankly, I don't think the
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    church has changed.
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    The Roman Church changed all that
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    much from that position.
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    So in some
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    ways
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    there was there was there was a
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    wonderful foundation from my faith
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    within the Roman church.
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    I found things there that I am
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    grateful for to this day, and
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    then I'm grateful for the things I
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    found there that propelled me
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    out of the church
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    into the path
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    that was to follow that I had no
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    idea. But it was from
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    that point I was 18.
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    It was another 15 18 years of
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    really miserable
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    conflict self-doubt.
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    The sense of being less
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    than not accepted by
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    the church closed door, I mean,
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    you go down the list and.
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    It came down to a point where if I'm
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    going to survive in the way that I
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    had come to believe God had made me
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    to be without being very articulate
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    about that, but understanding that
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    in some way I was going to have to
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    leave this place behind.
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    And I did.
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    And I can remember the day that I
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    was walking down the street in
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    Manhattan had gone and visited yet
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    another priest to see if we can work
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    this out and got the same
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    story and looked at him and said,
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    "Father, I believe you're a holy
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    guy, but I think you're wrong.
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    I don't think God has
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    asked me to spin around
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    on my heels and.
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    Change this direction, so thank
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    you," and it was a little
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    bit later on the walking down the
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    street, it was on 34th Street in
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    Manhattan, and I just
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    remember looking up at this monolith
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    of the church and saying,
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    "OK, I don't know what's going on
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    here, but you're wrong and I'm
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    gone." And so that's what happened.
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    So how many years would it have been
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    between that and then
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    the story you told about
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    first encountering That All May
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    Freely Serve?
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    Well, I I had
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    been in sales and marketing.
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    I was in a business career.
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    I had gone to school to become a
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    teacher. I majored in Spanish and
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    then that didn't pan out for
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    whatever reason.
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    And I started in sales and I stayed
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    with the company for, that
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    I was with from 1974,
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    part time I was working for them in
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    college and then went on to work
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    for them full time in New York and
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    Wisconsin and did a whole bunch of
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    work in marketing and sales and
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    product management.
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    All of this stuff.
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    And so when I finished that,
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    I had come back to New York and I
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    decided to go back to school
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    after about almost 18
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    years in that profession,
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    and I went back and got my master's
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    in elementary and special ed.
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    I was thirty seven.
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    So this is about five years
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    after I got sober.
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    And as we say, sometimes,
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    you know, I had finally started to
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    clear up a bit and started to play
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    with my marbles.
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    And I thought maybe there was
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    something else I could do.
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    But I had always wanted to teach,
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    always, so I went back
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    to school and I started teaching
  • speaker
    in nineteen, in nineteen
  • speaker
    ninety, no.
  • speaker
    Eighty
  • speaker
    seven I went back to school in 1990
  • speaker
    at age 40, I started to teach right
  • speaker
    around there,
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    Where were you teaching at?
  • speaker
    Well, I started out in a residential
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    treatment facility for seriously
  • speaker
    emotionally disturbed and conduct
  • speaker
    disordered in South Yonkers,
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    where I thought my name was
  • speaker
    MF because
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    that's when I walked in the first
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    day. This is what are you doing
  • speaker
    here, MF?
  • speaker
    And I came to realize that, you
  • speaker
    know, that was a term of endearment.
  • speaker
    So I began.
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    Took me a minute but I got there.
  • speaker
    Then I began there, and they
  • speaker
    were great kids, great kids who had
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    been through enormous, enormous,
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    enormous, you know, you'd read about
  • speaker
    a kid in the New York Post, the New
  • speaker
    York news that had just committed a
  • speaker
    crime.
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    And a day or two later, that kid
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    would be in your class.
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    And those are the kind of youth we
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    worked with.
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    So I was there for a couple of
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    years, and then I went into
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    another private special ed
  • speaker
    setting in Greenwich, Connecticut.
  • speaker
    But I I just I still
  • speaker
    wasn't out.
  • speaker
    And I knew I had to get out and come
  • speaker
    out, and I just was trying to figure
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    out, how do you do this?
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    And I believed in the public
  • speaker
    school system the private system
  • speaker
    was just too.
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    I don't know.
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    It felt like you sometimes
  • speaker
    you would sooner or later you were
  • speaker
    going to have to give up something
  • speaker
    to stay there, and I didn't I wasn't
  • speaker
    in that game anymore, so
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    I started looking and ended up in
  • speaker
    the public school system, so I was
  • speaker
    teaching about six
  • speaker
    years, so it's probably about ninety
  • speaker
    six. So six years.
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    So six years from
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    the time when
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    I finally knew I walked away from
  • speaker
    the church, I
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    wandered into the starting point.
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    And then from there, you were
  • speaker
    talking about how you kind of that
  • speaker
    set you off on a path to ordination.
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    When did you first have the idea
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    that maybe you'd want to become a
  • speaker
    pastor in the Presbyterian Church?
  • speaker
    Or in any church?
  • speaker
    Well, it's funny, because before
  • speaker
    that, I had thought about becoming a
  • speaker
    Marist Brother and
  • speaker
    which was a teaching order in the
  • speaker
    Roman Catholic Church,
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    so it never went away.
  • speaker
    You know this this thing, that's
  • speaker
    why I remember my first class in, in
  • speaker
    seminary, when one of the
  • speaker
    professors, Dr. Barbara Austin,
  • speaker
    Reverend Dr. Barbara Austin Lucas,
  • speaker
    who was about six inches
  • speaker
    shorter than I am, had
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    scared the heck out of me.
  • speaker
    When she started to preach, it was
  • speaker
    like she filled this entire room,
  • speaker
    when she said to me was "Bagnuolo
  • speaker
    you know why you're
  • speaker
    here this late in life?" I said,
  • speaker
    "No, why?" She said "Because the
  • speaker
    first time God called you didn't
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    answer."
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    So there was a series of this,
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    this sense of call now.
  • speaker
    I have the language for some of
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    this.
  • speaker
    But after the Stony Point experience
  • speaker
    I said to Bill,
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    I said, "What do I do, Bill?" He
  • speaker
    says, "Well," he says, "I got
  • speaker
    some churches for you to try." He
  • speaker
    says, "I know you don't go to church
  • speaker
    anymore because of the way you were
  • speaker
    treated, but there's some good
  • speaker
    Presbyterian churches." So he
  • speaker
    gave me the name of South
  • speaker
    Presbyterian Church in Dobbs Ferry,
  • speaker
    New York, which is where
  • speaker
    Joe Gilmore was the pastor.
  • speaker
    Susan De George was your associate,
  • speaker
    and I went to church there
  • speaker
    and I walked in that day and Susan
  • speaker
    was behind the pulpit.
  • speaker
    Now, I had never seen a woman preach
  • speaker
    in my entire life, so
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    I'm going like, and
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    I had a tie on.
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    And no one else did it.
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    And there's Susan saying,
  • speaker
    "You're welcome here, whether you
  • speaker
    are lesbian, bisexual, transgender,
  • speaker
    gay or straight, no matter what
  • speaker
    lines divide you outside, you are
  • speaker
    welcome here." And I went, the tie
  • speaker
    came off never
  • speaker
    went back on and I just kept going
  • speaker
    there because it was it was an
  • speaker
    invitation.
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    You know, I know the difference
  • speaker
    between being told to do something
  • speaker
    and an invitation.
  • speaker
    And that's been an important part, I
  • speaker
    think, in this movement that we've
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    been most successful when we've
  • speaker
    learned how to invite people,
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    whether it be by mutual invitation
  • speaker
    or just even if we don't say
  • speaker
    it to have that in our heart.
  • speaker
    And that was there.
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    The generosity and the hospitality
  • speaker
    was there.
  • speaker
    So I just started going to church
  • speaker
    there and I got involved and I
  • speaker
    loved the social justice activity.
  • speaker
    That was where a
  • speaker
    ministry called the Midnight Run,
  • speaker
    which you may or may not have heard
  • speaker
    of, was started by Joe Gilmore
  • speaker
    40 30 years before then, where he
  • speaker
    would load up a Volkswagen he had
  • speaker
    with sandwiches and clothes and
  • speaker
    blankets and drive it to New York
  • speaker
    City and sit down and talk
  • speaker
    with New York City's people
  • speaker
    who were living in homeless
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    conditions and out of that
  • speaker
    out of that beginning, there's
  • speaker
    now hundreds of midnight runs a week
  • speaker
    that go into the city.
  • speaker
    It was in that congregation where
  • speaker
    Joe and Susan were both brought up
  • speaker
    on charges for refusing to abide
  • speaker
    by G6.0106b.
  • speaker
    They were brought up on charges for
  • speaker
    marrying for the holy unions
  • speaker
    for same-gender-loving couples.
  • speaker
    There was an expression which you
  • speaker
    can or don't have to put in or not,
  • speaker
    but they were in Layman
  • speaker
    more than any other,
  • speaker
    you know, ministers that I knew of
  • speaker
    being picked apart.
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    And it was it.
  • speaker
    It was a badge of honor in those
  • speaker
    days.
  • speaker
    You know, you'd get a call.
  • speaker
    Well, I guess you "got Layed."
  • speaker
    I'd go, "What are you talking about?"
  • speaker
    "Oh, you're in The Layman!" "Oh,
  • speaker
    really?" you know?
  • speaker
    But but it was serious because they
  • speaker
    were, you know this this
  • speaker
    time.
  • speaker
    These folks were models for me, I
  • speaker
    mean, I had I had never seen people
  • speaker
    with such courage for what they
  • speaker
    believed in willing to risk so much.
  • speaker
    Even if that meant that the end of
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    the day that what
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    they had worked for was going to be
  • speaker
    taken away from them, that they
  • speaker
    couldn't be who they are unless
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    they stay true to what
  • speaker
    it was that they believed they
  • speaker
    needed to do.
  • speaker
    And I feel myself just
  • speaker
    getting, you know, it's hard to sit
  • speaker
    still, and I talk about this because
  • speaker
    it was such a power.
  • speaker
    So in spite of all of the
  • speaker
    threats and the trials and the
  • speaker
    PJCs and all of these different
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    things.
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    This congregation was
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    relentless in moving forward, and
  • speaker
    I just that caught me, you
  • speaker
    know, and I say to Susan one day I
  • speaker
    said, you know,
  • speaker
    because by this time I had, they had
  • speaker
    they asked me to be an elder
  • speaker
    and a deacon, and you know,
  • speaker
    I had gotten involved in different
  • speaker
    stuff and I thought school.
  • speaker
    They said.
  • speaker
    I said to Susan,
  • speaker
    "You know, I I've been thinking
  • speaker
    maybe this minister thing is
  • speaker
    something that I could do." So
  • speaker
    there a couple of things that day.
  • speaker
    One of them was you never say
  • speaker
    anything to Susan unless you intend
  • speaker
    on doing it, because she
  • speaker
    will just keep saying, "Did you do
  • speaker
    it? Did you do it or did you do it?"
  • speaker
    So she said, Take a class.
  • speaker
    And of course
  • speaker
    I, I just, not of course.
  • speaker
    But it didn't.
  • speaker
    If I was going to do it, I was going
  • speaker
    to do it. So I enrolled in seminary
  • speaker
    and did that part time took five
  • speaker
    years at night while continued to
  • speaker
    teach full time in middle
  • speaker
    school and high school.
  • speaker
    But it came out of their power of
  • speaker
    example.
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    And it was this connection to
  • speaker
    the Presbyterian Church that
  • speaker
    I did make a mistake.
  • speaker
    I really I really did not
  • speaker
    know because I came out
  • speaker
    of a setting where pretty much
  • speaker
    all your Catholic churches
  • speaker
    pretty much the same right little
  • speaker
    difference here or there.
  • speaker
    So when I walked into South Church,
  • speaker
    I just figured every Presbyterian
  • speaker
    Church was exactly like South.
  • speaker
    I had no idea that the eleven
  • speaker
    thousand churches out there were
  • speaker
    very different in many ways.
  • speaker
    But there was the core of people
  • speaker
    there. And so this
  • speaker
    was at the time of 10A.
  • speaker
    It was during the time of
  • speaker
    a lot of other stuff that was going
  • speaker
    on, and Jesus G6.0106b was in
  • speaker
    the midst of this at some point.
  • speaker
    And we formed out of
  • speaker
    that church with 11 other
  • speaker
    congregations in Westchester County
  • speaker
    what was called Acts of Conscience
  • speaker
    and Acts of Conscience was a group
  • speaker
    of ministers and congregations
  • speaker
    that had agreed despite
  • speaker
    whatever the outcome might be, the
  • speaker
    cause might be,
  • speaker
    the basic point.
  • speaker
    The basic line of it was we
  • speaker
    will not abide. We have not, cannot,
  • speaker
    nor will we abide by G6.0106b.
  • speaker
    And that was a very important
  • speaker
    critical part of the movement
  • speaker
    in terms of having a
  • speaker
    voice in the National Church
  • speaker
    from congregations and pastors.
  • speaker
    Understanding the risks that was
  • speaker
    involved and also
  • speaker
    people who have been part of it in
  • speaker
    different parts of the country who
  • speaker
    have actually lost their jobs
  • speaker
    or had been quote unquote defrocked
  • speaker
    or just could no longer put
  • speaker
    up with the
  • speaker
    the horribleness of general
  • speaker
    assemblies and having people who
  • speaker
    taught and preached God stand
  • speaker
    there online and and
  • speaker
    insist that they knew you better
  • speaker
    than you knew yourself and that you
  • speaker
    were destined to go to Hell unless
  • speaker
    one by one you changed.
  • speaker
    So there
  • speaker
    it was, I had no idea I was getting
  • speaker
    involved.
  • speaker
    I just thought I was going to go
  • speaker
    happily on my way and be a pastor
  • speaker
    or chaplain or whatever somewhere.
  • speaker
    But that wasn't the plan.
  • speaker
    It was, so Acts of Conscious without
  • speaker
    have been formed in the early 2000s.
  • speaker
    Mm-Hmm.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    That's great, actually, I I hadn't
  • speaker
    heard that story before.
  • speaker
    It seems like a very important one.
  • speaker
    Presbytery of Hudson River had
  • speaker
    a strong
  • speaker
    commitment, and
  • speaker
    yet at the same time, I can remember
  • speaker
    one of the leaders of the Presbytery
  • speaker
    who's long gone when I was in the
  • speaker
    course of my process, I'm saying,
  • speaker
    Look, you know, what do I do, I'm in
  • speaker
    the COM, I'm out,
  • speaker
    how do I handle this?
  • speaker
    And the directions
  • speaker
    from one person at least was to keep
  • speaker
    your head low and follow the Book of
  • speaker
    Order. And I thought to myself, this
  • speaker
    is not going to work,
  • speaker
    ain't keeping his head low and
  • speaker
    decently in order is fine, except
  • speaker
    when it ties you up in barbed wire,
  • speaker
    and he just can't do it so.
  • speaker
    So did you end up experiencing any
  • speaker
    barriers to your ordination, then?
  • speaker
    Did you have to go through the
  • speaker
    judicial process?
  • speaker
    I was not
  • speaker
    brought up on charges, no.
  • speaker
    There there were other people who
  • speaker
    were being brought up on charges,
  • speaker
    and I think part of it at the time
  • speaker
    was that there were so many
  • speaker
    charges being brought forward
  • speaker
    that it it
  • speaker
    just that wasn't the approach.
  • speaker
    So the approach that was taken
  • speaker
    was by even folks
  • speaker
    who would assign themselves a title
  • speaker
    of allies, you know, saying you're
  • speaker
    an ally and being an ally are really
  • speaker
    two different things
  • speaker
    who are in leadership roles and
  • speaker
    Presbyteries.
  • speaker
    What they would do
  • speaker
    is,
  • speaker
    well, it's a step ahead now, after
  • speaker
    ordination, but you would be offered
  • speaker
    things like part time.
  • speaker
    Temporary stated supply,
  • speaker
    I mean, I just I had a I had
  • speaker
    a GP tell me
  • speaker
    to my face, you'll never get called
  • speaker
    to a church in this Presbytery
  • speaker
    because you're too hot and there's
  • speaker
    going to be charges brought against
  • speaker
    them. It's just not going to happen.
  • speaker
    And that it was not
  • speaker
    uncommon across the, I guess
  • speaker
    it was 33, still are 33
  • speaker
    presbyteries, whatever it is, that
  • speaker
    was not uncommon in the life of the
  • speaker
    church because anyone who was
  • speaker
    willing to take on someone who's
  • speaker
    openly gay and seeking a call
  • speaker
    was, they had reason
  • speaker
    to believe they were also going to
  • speaker
    be taking on charges, judicial
  • speaker
    commission and all sorts of things,
  • speaker
    but where the, where it came
  • speaker
    from, I would say that.
  • speaker
    There was a there was a fair amount
  • speaker
    of attempts at dissuading anybody
  • speaker
    from going forward.
  • speaker
    There was there was someone who was
  • speaker
    leading one of the organizations
  • speaker
    in the city and
  • speaker
    I went down to see her.
  • speaker
    She was she was that
  • speaker
    she led one of the groups in the
  • speaker
    city and
  • speaker
    I sat across from her and.
  • speaker
    She says,"You know, We
  • speaker
    just want to protect you, so here's
  • speaker
    the way we want you to do this."
  • speaker
    And Covenant Network kept putting
  • speaker
    out some ways of doing these things.
  • speaker
    You just keep quiet and you do
  • speaker
    scruples and you do this and you do
  • speaker
    that.
  • speaker
    And I looked at her and I said,
  • speaker
    "You know, with all due respect, I
  • speaker
    don't want your protection.
  • speaker
    I want you to walk with me.
  • speaker
    And I want you to support me,
  • speaker
    even though it may not be the way
  • speaker
    that you think it should be done.
  • speaker
    I have no other path but this one to
  • speaker
    follow." So there was resistance
  • speaker
    and push and pull even within the
  • speaker
    affinity groups and the movements of
  • speaker
    about what was the right way to
  • speaker
    go forward?
  • speaker
    That's not uncommon.
  • speaker
    When there's when there's a movement
  • speaker
    that builds up from the grassroots
  • speaker
    and even within the LGBT
  • speaker
    community, you know,
  • speaker
    from the beginning, people are
  • speaker
    together and the group grows and
  • speaker
    people have different ideas, and
  • speaker
    they split apart and they take
  • speaker
    different directions that they address
  • speaker
    different ideas, different areas
  • speaker
    of concern. And sometimes there's
  • speaker
    disagreements. Sometimes there's
  • speaker
    animus, sometimes there's
  • speaker
    everything. But
  • speaker
    that was where most of the
  • speaker
    resistance came from was
  • speaker
    you'll never get ordained and
  • speaker
    you're not going to find a church to
  • speaker
    call you.
  • speaker
    And you know, why
  • speaker
    don't you just wait?
  • speaker
    We're going to have a moratorium.
  • speaker
    Wait.
  • speaker
    At this General Assembly, don't
  • speaker
    push for the removal of G6.0106b.
  • speaker
    Let's just have a hiatus.
  • speaker
    There were so many attempts
  • speaker
    to not bring it forward.
  • speaker
    And the point of it all
  • speaker
    well bringing it forward.
  • speaker
    And I used to say this all the time,
  • speaker
    look it's not that we're going to
  • speaker
    because we would be told you're not
  • speaker
    going to get the vote, you're not
  • speaker
    going to get the votes. I says, I
  • speaker
    don't care if we get the votes.
  • speaker
    There's people out there who need to
  • speaker
    hear and listen that they haven't
  • speaker
    been forgotten.
  • speaker
    Who is the voice for these people?
  • speaker
    They don't care about your strategy
  • speaker
    or your ability to say whether or
  • speaker
    not it's going to pass.
  • speaker
    That's going to happen, when it's
  • speaker
    going to happen. But we need to keep
  • speaker
    saying these things and helping
  • speaker
    people to hear that we can't
  • speaker
    be held hostage to somebody's
  • speaker
    strategy or to whether or not
  • speaker
    they're going to vote.
  • speaker
    And so, you know, there were some
  • speaker
    real differences in the way we
  • speaker
    approach things.
  • speaker
    And it's, you
  • speaker
    know, it's there's been some general
  • speaker
    assemblies, honestly, where at the
  • speaker
    end of the day, it's been hard
  • speaker
    not connect some of what occurred is
  • speaker
    a sense of betrayal.
  • speaker
    Were you ever an overture advocate?
  • speaker
    Could you talk a little bit about
  • speaker
    that experience?
  • speaker
    Well, being an OA,
  • speaker
    the first time I did it and the
  • speaker
    sixth or seventh times they did it
  • speaker
    were two different things.
  • speaker
    I found people, but probably people
  • speaker
    thought I was a lot nicer the first
  • speaker
    time I did it.
  • speaker
    It was such an honor.
  • speaker
    Such a privilege such and very
  • speaker
    humbling, you know,
  • speaker
    very humbling to think that for
  • speaker
    three minutes,
  • speaker
    you're going to have a chance to
  • speaker
    talk about something that is
  • speaker
    really not about you
  • speaker
    as much as it is about all of the
  • speaker
    people that are asking you to do
  • speaker
    this for them.
  • speaker
    When I, my COM was an amazing
  • speaker
    COM and my last meeting with
  • speaker
    them, they said to me before
  • speaker
    I got my call to, they said
  • speaker
    to me, "What's the difference
  • speaker
    now between when you first
  • speaker
    came here and today?"
  • speaker
    And I looked at them, I said, "You
  • speaker
    know, today I realize I don't
  • speaker
    need to be ordained." They were
  • speaker
    like, "What?" I said, "No, I
  • speaker
    don't. I don't need to be ordained.
  • speaker
    I just need to stay on the path.
  • speaker
    You all have trusted in me and
  • speaker
    called me to be who I am, no matter
  • speaker
    what.
  • speaker
    And I can't go out, be there
  • speaker
    anything different than that," so it
  • speaker
    was a sense of this.
  • speaker
    And I mean, so much of this I've
  • speaker
    learned through by this time I was
  • speaker
    involved with That All May Freely Serve.
  • speaker
    I had served on the board of More
  • speaker
    Light Presbyterians at one point,
  • speaker
    part of Presbyterian Welcome.
  • speaker
    And my long
  • speaker
    term commitment has been to TAMPS,
  • speaker
    but by this point I had learned
  • speaker
    through the example of other people
  • speaker
    about what it means to stay on the
  • speaker
    path and to be who you are
  • speaker
    and to understand that when
  • speaker
    you do this work, sometimes you
  • speaker
    become the curriculum for other
  • speaker
    people.
  • speaker
    And so it's it's
  • speaker
    not just about, you know, you're
  • speaker
    not selling something, you're really
  • speaker
    talking about something that,
  • speaker
    hopefully,
  • speaker
    the words are being given to you in
  • speaker
    the way that God would have you
  • speaker
    speak them so that others
  • speaker
    hearts can be soft and then
  • speaker
    their hands can be opened.
  • speaker
    So it was it was a great experience,
  • speaker
    nerve wracking. I don't know how
  • speaker
    many times I went over that first
  • speaker
    three minutes.
  • speaker
    And.
  • speaker
    Towards the end, because
  • speaker
    we had moved an overture towards the
  • speaker
    end of my last
  • speaker
    experience as an OA was.
  • speaker
    They probably became much more
  • speaker
    personal over time
  • speaker
    because I had had a little bit more
  • speaker
    of a story to tell and some
  • speaker
    experiences about.
  • speaker
    You know, like the the
  • speaker
    Presbyterian Montgomery Presbyterian
  • speaker
    Church in Alabama, where
  • speaker
    the pastor of the church there got
  • speaker
    a call one day that this
  • speaker
    kid had, he was in high school, he
  • speaker
    was in college and there was
  • speaker
    something in a college newspaper
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    about his activity.
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    And something that had to do with
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    his being gay and
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    someone who knew that went
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    to his family and said, "Look what
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    we found." The kid came home.
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    His parents confronted him, "Are
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    you? Are you gay?" And he said,
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    "Yes." And two days later, they
  • speaker
    him a suitcase with a box of his
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    insurance policy and his
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    identification papers and said, "You
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    are no longer our son." I mean, I
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    knew these stories.
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    I had sat with people
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    and cried with people and
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    and and with people who were
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    trying to help. I mean, it was it
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    was.
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    It was like, how could you not
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    hear this and say you
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    are who you are?
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    So.
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    That was probably where I was
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    towards the end of my advocacy work
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    because it was really starting to.
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    Really starting to hurt even more
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    than I thought it could.
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    I did want to ask,
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    so you said like kind of one of the
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    barriers that you experienced were
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    people just kind of repeatedly
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    telling you that you could get
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    ordained, but you probably wouldn't
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    find a call.
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    So after you ordained, did you get a
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    call to serve a church?
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    So you need to get
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    a you need to be called
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    out of, you get clear to seek
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    a call right and then you
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    because you have a call.
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    So the call came for a part
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    time ministry, while I was still
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    teaching, at Palisades
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    Presbyterian Church in Palisades,
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    New York.
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    An amazing group of people, and they
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    were part of this. They were one of
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    the Acts of Conscience churches, Bob
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    Chase was the pastor there at the
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    time and Dae Jung afterwards.
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    They were, they were part
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    of this,
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    but they had a long history in
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    social justice.
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    And when they called me
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    and I went for the interview and all
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    of these things, they
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    had said, "Well,
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    it's an interim position.
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    Do you have interim training?" I said, "No, but
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    I'll go get it."
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    They said "Well we can't promise
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    you'll get the call." I said, "Well,
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    I'll go as long as you tell me you
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    haven't decided, I'll go." They
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    said "We haven't decided." So I
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    trekked off to Spokane, Washington,
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    where it was the only training I
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    could get. And
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    while I was out there, they called
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    me and told me I had the call and
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    I learned so much there.
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    One of the things I learned and what
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    they knew is that they couldn't be
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    who they are, who they were,
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    say the things they were saying
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    without taking action upon it.
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    And it was such a powerful thing.
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    Rather than say, "Well, we believe
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    in this, but we're not quite ready
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    because, you know, we don't want to
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    mess all this up." And so
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    that's where it began as an interim
  • speaker
    pastor.
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    I could have stayed there forever,
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    but in that day, in that time
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    you were an interim, you were an the
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    interim.
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    And when you when you were done,
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    you needed to move on so that
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    a called pastor can come in there.
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    After that,
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    the rejections started to flow.
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    I I did do my four units
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    of CPE over time, which I love
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    chaplaincy work and may
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    even return to that someday.
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    When I started looking, I started
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    interviewing and that's when I got
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    you're not going to get a call on
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    Presbytery Hudson River.
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    It's just not going to happen.
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    And.
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    But that same person sent me a
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    little, it was just a
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    piece of paper out of a newspaper it
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    looked like says "Jan Hus
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    Presbyterian Church and Neighborhood
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    House New York City looking for
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    stated supply."
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    And I and I can honestly say, no,
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    I don't want to do this, I've done
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    all the part time stuff, I've done
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    all of this, you know, half minister
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    stuff. That was what I was thinking
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    at the time.
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    And then something came into my head
  • speaker
    like you said, you'd do what I asked
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    you to do.
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    You couldn't do it.
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    So I went down. I talked to them and
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    as happens
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    when you meet people like were
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    there at the time, you just sort of
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    fall in love with who they are, what
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    they're trying to do, where they've
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    been, your heart goes out to them.
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    And I ended up serving
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    on Jan Hus Presbyterian Church and
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    Neighborhood House for four years as
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    stated supply pastor and executive
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    director of their program.
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    I increased the membership
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    of that congregation four years,
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    Liz I increased it 150
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    percent.
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    But I went there, there were nine
  • speaker
    members when I left, there were 12.
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    Wow!
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    There were 12 members in that whole
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    church, so I tell it
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    to people because they're thinking
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    50 60 100, I say I added 3 members.
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    They go, "You're crazy, man." But I
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    was I was there
  • speaker
    and that was stated supply, and then
  • speaker
    it was time for them
  • speaker
    to move on.
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    So then I said, you know, maybe I
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    can, let me see if I can find a full
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    time position.
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    And one after the other, I would get
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    I would get just
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    wonderfully far,
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    and I everybody,
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    I mean, I thought everybody knew I
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    was gay. There was so much publicity
  • speaker
    that had been around South
  • speaker
    Church in my work there TVs
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    and this that my ordination,
  • speaker
    for whatever reason, was was
  • speaker
    televised and it was written up in
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    the papers because it was one of the
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    first
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    instances where somebody who was
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    out and gay was being
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    ordered in the Presbyterian
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    Church.
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    So I just figured, you know, they
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    already knew.
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    But then we'd get into some
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    conversations, and all of a sudden I
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    get, well, we're going to continue
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    to look, we're going to continue to
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    look.
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    And it really it really started to
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    wear down on me.
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    And there was one in
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    August, five years ago,
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    where
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    in my work, I've been in every state
  • speaker
    in the country except for Alaska.
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    So when I was thinking about it,
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    looking for a call, I would
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    go to Alaska and I'd look at the
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    churches. So I knew pretty
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    much all the churches there.
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    I never applied, I get this
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    call from someone said, "Hi,
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    my name is Donna." I'm sitting out
  • speaker
    at the Cherry Grove, where I go to
  • speaker
    the summer when I can.
  • speaker
    She said "This is Donna from
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    Utqiagvik Presbyterian Church in
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    Barrow, Alaska, we're wondering if
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    she'd be interested in considering
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    being our interim pastor?"
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    And I said, "You know, this is why I
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    pick up the phone.
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    I never know who's going to call."
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    She laughed.
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    I said, "You know, I know your
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    church from from your myth." I
  • speaker
    said, "But you know, you looked at
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    my path, you've got to know that,
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    you know, I mean, I'm all those
  • speaker
    things, but I'm gay too, its, and
  • speaker
    I'm gay. That's who I am." She says,
  • speaker
    "My daughter is a lesbian.
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    It would be wonderful to have a gay
  • speaker
    pastor." I said, "OK."
  • speaker
    I said, "But there's more." I
  • speaker
    said, "I'm also in recovery.
  • speaker
    I have been for over 35 years
  • speaker
    and I still go to meetings and I'm
  • speaker
    going to end up being in a meeting
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    there somewhere in someone from the
  • speaker
    church is going to show up and say,
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    'I saw the pastor of our church.'"
  • speaker
    She said, "You know, what our four
  • speaker
    biggest problems are up here?
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    Alcoholism, drug abuse,
  • speaker
    suicide and depression."
  • speaker
    She said "There isn't anything that
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    what you're doing couldn't be
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    helpful to us."
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    And from there, I
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    met with the nominating committee,
  • speaker
    was open the whole time, you
  • speaker
    know, and I'm going to go back to
  • speaker
    what I said before that I had
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    learned in this work of ministry and
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    advocacy and being out.
  • speaker
    Not only do people tell you things
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    when you're really who you are.
  • speaker
    Something opens up inside of them
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    sometimes and they find
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    maybe a chance to be who they are
  • speaker
    without any judgment.
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    And they take a chance and you honor
  • speaker
    that, it's important.
  • speaker
    But you also you become a curriculum
  • speaker
    sometimes. So I'm going through
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    all of these meetings and we're
  • speaker
    getting to the point where they say,
  • speaker
    "We really like you." It's
  • speaker
    all been on phone, you know, and
  • speaker
    I'm talking to my family.
  • speaker
    And I mean, I'm single but I've
  • speaker
    talked to my mother who lives in Florida.
  • speaker
    I'm saying, "You know, I may be
  • speaker
    going to Barrow, Alaska, can you
  • speaker
    handle that?" Not that I.
  • speaker
    I just wanted to.
  • speaker
    It was that kind of a decision.
  • speaker
    It's only like 17 hours away by air,
  • speaker
    you know?
  • speaker
    And.
  • speaker
    They said, "OK, are you serious?"
  • speaker
    I says, "Well, I'm serious enough to
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    pay half my airfare to Barrow,
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    Alaska." Said, "All right." So
  • speaker
    we had planned to
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    have
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    a meeting because the Presbyterian
  • speaker
    Church there, I don't know if you
  • speaker
    know, Barrow is 320 miles north
  • speaker
    of the Arctic Circle and the
  • speaker
    Presbyterian Church there is one of
  • speaker
    five churches there.
  • speaker
    And you're the sort of the town
  • speaker
    pastor when you're there.
  • speaker
    You're the senior pastor of the town
  • speaker
    because of the the way that it's
  • speaker
    developed over time.
  • speaker
    So.
  • speaker
    He said, "You know, but there's some
  • speaker
    conservative people up here," we had
  • speaker
    talked about that. I said, "Well,
  • speaker
    you know what?
  • speaker
    Why don't we plan a meeting on a
  • speaker
    Saturday with the community?
  • speaker
    Invite everybody.
  • speaker
    Let them ask me their questions.
  • speaker
    Let them see who I am.
  • speaker
    We can talk about whatever they
  • speaker
    want. Show them I don't have
  • speaker
    any horns.
  • speaker
    And then on Sunday, I'll do my
  • speaker
    candidating service, I'll fly home
  • speaker
    and you decide what you want
  • speaker
    and we'll decide together.
  • speaker
    Obviously understood.
  • speaker
    Okay. And it was the Synod of the
  • speaker
    Northwest, so that's where it was
  • speaker
    going on.
  • speaker
    So
  • speaker
    they said, "OK," and I'm
  • speaker
    literally the next day making
  • speaker
    reservations through
  • speaker
    Dead Horse Alaska on Alaska
  • speaker
    Air to get to Barrow and
  • speaker
    the phone rings. And it's Mike who
  • speaker
    is the chair of the nominating
  • speaker
    committee of the pastor nominating
  • speaker
    committee right.
  • speaker
    He says "The session just
  • speaker
    asked me to ask you a question." I
  • speaker
    says "Yeah, what's that?" He says,
  • speaker
    "You're celibate, right?"
  • speaker
    I said, "Mike, what, I don't
  • speaker
    understand?" I said "I'm
  • speaker
    coming up there by myself because
  • speaker
    I'm not in a relationship, but
  • speaker
    we've never talked about this and
  • speaker
    all my work and everything we've
  • speaker
    talked about is about
  • speaker
    making sure that people who is God
  • speaker
    has created them to be can be in the
  • speaker
    fullness of a relationship with who
  • speaker
    it is they love in the same way you
  • speaker
    might be in yours."
  • speaker
    So he had the session was getting
  • speaker
    uncomfortable, and they said, "Well,
  • speaker
    if he's celibate, we'll call him
  • speaker
    up." And Mike says "Maybe he is."
  • speaker
    And so he called me back a little
  • speaker
    while later, he says, "We're going to
  • speaker
    keep looking." I got to tell you,
  • speaker
    that was not
  • speaker
    the, that was like the 10th there
  • speaker
    was one in Yuma Yuma.
  • speaker
    Just like two weeks before that, I
  • speaker
    was ready to go to Yuma, 98 days a year, three
  • speaker
    hundred and sixty two days a year of
  • speaker
    sun. I figured what the hell.
  • speaker
    And that was a hard one, because
  • speaker
    after that, I said, OK, you
  • speaker
    know, I was willing to go,
  • speaker
    I said yes, but it turned out that
  • speaker
    the call wasn't to go there to call
  • speaker
    was to be in conversation with them.
  • speaker
    For me and maybe for them.
  • speaker
    And so as that settled
  • speaker
    down over time, a friend of mine who
  • speaker
    had actually ended up going South
  • speaker
    Presbyterian Church
  • speaker
    to become the interim pastor there,
  • speaker
    Jane Ann Groom, she's a UCC pastor.
  • speaker
    She kept saying, "There's this church
  • speaker
    in Sayville, New York.
  • speaker
    They're looking for a part time
  • speaker
    pastor. It's a UCC Church.
  • speaker
    They've had gay pastors there
  • speaker
    before. This guy was a gay it would
  • speaker
    be perfect for you.
  • speaker
    It's right down the block from where
  • speaker
    you get the ferry to Cherry Grove.
  • speaker
    They're wonderful people," da-da-da.
  • speaker
    "Janie Ann, leave me alone.
  • speaker
    I'm not going to UCC,"
  • speaker
    on and on. Finally, I sent the
  • speaker
    application
  • speaker
    just to make Jane Ann
  • speaker
    quiet down, and
  • speaker
    they said to me, "You know, you look
  • speaker
    good on paper, but you got to
  • speaker
    understand if somebody else is
  • speaker
    good on paper and they're UCC pastor
  • speaker
    we're going to call them." I said "I
  • speaker
    get it."
  • speaker
    Ended up that was in the
  • speaker
    that was like not long after Barrow,
  • speaker
    September and
  • speaker
    through the next few months over a
  • speaker
    series of meetings
  • speaker
    and a second interview where, you
  • speaker
    know, I didn't know if I was going
  • speaker
    to get a call, but I had really come
  • speaker
    to care about the
  • speaker
    people and who they were and what
  • speaker
    they had done, and I said, "Look, I
  • speaker
    don't know if you're going to call me or
  • speaker
    not, but this may be the last time
  • speaker
    we get a chance to speak.
  • speaker
    So let me talk to you who I am
  • speaker
    as an advocate, as a minister,
  • speaker
    as all the things I've done." And
  • speaker
    as if you had called me in here for
  • speaker
    a to go over what your,
  • speaker
    they call it a profile in the UCC,
  • speaker
    looks like because your,
  • speaker
    here's the size of a church you are,
  • speaker
    here's all the things you want to do.
  • speaker
    This is what you really have to
  • speaker
    start to think about what's most
  • speaker
    important, and I just sort of did
  • speaker
    that.
  • speaker
    And then that was that,
  • speaker
    and they called me.
  • speaker
    And within in
  • speaker
    the year.
  • speaker
    I'm in my fifth year here now within
  • speaker
    the year, I
  • speaker
    would be installed for the first
  • speaker
    time since I was ordained 15 years
  • speaker
    ago in a church.
  • speaker
    Wow.
  • speaker
    And during that time, then you
  • speaker
    were also doing a lot of work
  • speaker
    for That All May Freely Serve.
  • speaker
    And do you still continue, you
  • speaker
    continue to do that work?
  • speaker
    Well in the in the time after I left
  • speaker
    Jan Hus in the city, I went on.
  • speaker
    That All May Freely Serve was about
  • speaker
    to close down and.
  • speaker
    I had time, and so I
  • speaker
    talked to people and said, what
  • speaker
    about this, how about this?
  • speaker
    I said, Fine, look, you know, we're
  • speaker
    the church here is done.
  • speaker
    Downtown United Presbyterian Church
  • speaker
    we started was providing
  • speaker
    financial oversight, but
  • speaker
    they were doing that just so
  • speaker
    fiduciary oversight, so that it was
  • speaker
    clear that it was transparency in
  • speaker
    the finances.
  • speaker
    Just whatever you do got to have
  • speaker
    transparency of finances,
  • speaker
    but basically took it and.
  • speaker
    And for the next, what I did
  • speaker
    was what others had done before me
  • speaker
    because I had a period of a few
  • speaker
    years before I would end up
  • speaker
    getting these calls.
  • speaker
    And I thought, we're still trying
  • speaker
    to get.
  • speaker
    We were trying to get Amendment
  • speaker
    G6.0106b off, then getting
  • speaker
    10A, then getting
  • speaker
    the Constitution changed for
  • speaker
    marriage equality and so forth.
  • speaker
    So I did what Janie used to do.
  • speaker
    I got him a car
  • speaker
    loaded it up, and I
  • speaker
    drove to Phoenix, Arizona.
  • speaker
    And I met somebody in Phoenix and
  • speaker
    I said, "How are you doing?" And
  • speaker
    then I says, "Where else should I
  • speaker
    go? Who can I talk to?
  • speaker
    Who's trying to figure out what to
  • speaker
    do?" And I traveled the country
  • speaker
    for three and a half years on
  • speaker
    hearsay from one person to the next.
  • speaker
    Here's what was in my mind.
  • speaker
    While we're working at
  • speaker
    all of this legislative work, these
  • speaker
    overtures, and
  • speaker
    each year you go to General
  • speaker
    Assembly, you get a little bit
  • speaker
    forward and then you get knocked
  • speaker
    back and then you go forward and you
  • speaker
    get back, I understood that.
  • speaker
    But while we were doing that work
  • speaker
    to try and change things, the people
  • speaker
    for whom we were trying to change
  • speaker
    things were still living under the
  • speaker
    conditions that existed.
  • speaker
    And so this idea of you've got to
  • speaker
    move it forward we'll provide
  • speaker
    pastoral care at the same time,
  • speaker
    either to the ministers who are
  • speaker
    caring for people,
  • speaker
    you know, helping them to
  • speaker
    whatever it was they needed to be
  • speaker
    helping them to find resources, if
  • speaker
    you could, or just Bob Conover,
  • speaker
    who was the
  • speaker
    General Presbyter out in
  • speaker
    in
  • speaker
    not San Francisco, not Mill
  • speaker
    Valley. What is that out there?
  • speaker
    What's the Presbytery out there?
  • speaker
    Said to me at one point, he said,
  • speaker
    "You know what? I don't really care
  • speaker
    what you do if you're going out
  • speaker
    there talking to ministers and
  • speaker
    asking them, talking to pastors and
  • speaker
    asking them how they're doing and
  • speaker
    just letting them talk to you.
  • speaker
    They don't get a chance to do that,
  • speaker
    especially about things that involve
  • speaker
    these, these types of concerns.
  • speaker
    So I did that for
  • speaker
    almost four years.
  • speaker
    And Redwoods, Redwoods Presbytery.
  • speaker
    I did that for almost four years.
  • speaker
    And then the
  • speaker
    last thing.
  • speaker
    And at that time, That All May
  • speaker
    Freely Serve was me.
  • speaker
    And everybody was a volunteer, was
  • speaker
    all volunteer, there was no income,
  • speaker
    there was no fundraising, I mean,
  • speaker
    people would give us money and we'd
  • speaker
    use it for the ministry.
  • speaker
    But when I took over, I flattened
  • speaker
    the whole thing. I didn't want to
  • speaker
    spend my time fundraising.
  • speaker
    I didn't want that, just we'll
  • speaker
    go where we're needed and I could do
  • speaker
    that.
  • speaker
    I could do pro bono for a while.
  • speaker
    So
  • speaker
    the last year, for
  • speaker
    a lot of reasons.
  • speaker
    We were stuck
  • speaker
    in the church, I thought, and we
  • speaker
    were stuck for a lot of reasons and
  • speaker
    one of the ones, we had never
  • speaker
    acknowledged the harm that we had
  • speaker
    done as an institution.
  • speaker
    You know, it's a parallel to the
  • speaker
    Roman Catholic Church that was never
  • speaker
    going to change. But I had believed
  • speaker
    come to believe in this church and
  • speaker
    that it would change.
  • speaker
    And that that was something I had to
  • speaker
    try to help happen.
  • speaker
    So we wrote the overture.
  • speaker
    I think it was 13, Amendment 13,
  • speaker
    but it was for the church
  • speaker
    to admit,
  • speaker
    as an institution, the harm
  • speaker
    that it had done and
  • speaker
    to acknowledge that with a statement
  • speaker
    something like, look,
  • speaker
    we made a mistake, we were
  • speaker
    wrong, people were harmed,
  • speaker
    we don't know what the answer is
  • speaker
    now, but we know it's not to
  • speaker
    continue to do that.
  • speaker
    Now this was this this.
  • speaker
    General Assembly and this
  • speaker
    overture was less
  • speaker
    than 10 days after the Pulse
  • speaker
    nightclub shooting.
  • speaker
    I may not make it through this.
  • speaker
    42, 3 people.
  • speaker
    And we're coming together as a
  • speaker
    church.
  • speaker
    Out there in Portland.
  • speaker
    Was an opportunity
  • speaker
    to become the voice on a national
  • speaker
    level to make
  • speaker
    it clear to all who would hear
  • speaker
    that there is no way that
  • speaker
    this could ever be what God
  • speaker
    intended for any of us to
  • speaker
    do or be a part of
  • speaker
    or to be quiet.
  • speaker
    And that what we're
  • speaker
    going to do is we're going to start
  • speaker
    this and take our role seriously
  • speaker
    by admitting that we have a role
  • speaker
    in this, that the teachings we've
  • speaker
    been a part of, the things that
  • speaker
    we've been a part of, the way we've
  • speaker
    dragged our feet so that
  • speaker
    the horrible things we've done, the
  • speaker
    people contributed to this
  • speaker
    and all of the other atrocities
  • speaker
    from Matthew Shepard on.
  • speaker
    And before.
  • speaker
    Well.
  • speaker
    It was a hard one for a lot of
  • speaker
    reasons, I spoke at every luncheon
  • speaker
    and breakfast breakfast I could
  • speaker
    think of
  • speaker
    that I was invited to
  • speaker
    to try and gain support.
  • speaker
    And ultimately,
  • speaker
    the two other,
  • speaker
    Covenant Network and More Light
  • speaker
    Presbyterians said contact me
  • speaker
    in the process early in the process,
  • speaker
    saying that they were asking me not
  • speaker
    to go forward with it because they
  • speaker
    don't think the church is ready for
  • speaker
    it, and they didn't feel like they
  • speaker
    had been included.
  • speaker
    Which which I didn't remember, not
  • speaker
    including, but and I said, look,
  • speaker
    I'm sorry.
  • speaker
    So at that Assembly,
  • speaker
    Covenant
  • speaker
    publicly opposed it.
  • speaker
    And those who oppose it used their
  • speaker
    considerable forces and resources
  • speaker
    to do all they could
  • speaker
    to have it voted down,
  • speaker
    the other affiliates who might have
  • speaker
    spoken up were silent.
  • speaker
    And at the end of it, a
  • speaker
    statement was finally passed
  • speaker
    that said, well, if we harmed
  • speaker
    anyone, we're sorry.
  • speaker
    So and as
  • speaker
    the person of That All May Freely
  • speaker
    Serve, we had
  • speaker
    brought 12 or 14 people there
  • speaker
    with us.
  • speaker
    We had enormous support for this
  • speaker
    and it was not to take the church
  • speaker
    apart. It was to start this thing
  • speaker
    in a way. You know,
  • speaker
    we got all sorts of feedback.
  • speaker
    Well, how about the other lives that
  • speaker
    the church has mistreated?
  • speaker
    I said, "Well, we'll support them
  • speaker
    too, but I can't be held
  • speaker
    hostage by what other things
  • speaker
    need to be fixed before we go ahead
  • speaker
    and do this. This is how you lead."
  • speaker
    You know, you get people who are
  • speaker
    willing to go along with you.
  • speaker
    You're not held hostage by those who
  • speaker
    disagree, but you don't shut them
  • speaker
    out, either.
  • speaker
    Let them come along when they're
  • speaker
    ready.
  • speaker
    So after that came back
  • speaker
    from Portland.
  • speaker
    And.
  • speaker
    I drove through Laramie.
  • speaker
    I'd driven out there, which
  • speaker
    I'm very grateful I did, because
  • speaker
    being out in the wide open
  • speaker
    spaces of this country can be very
  • speaker
    helpful. You see God in a way
  • speaker
    that, I understand
  • speaker
    the language. I don't speak it.
  • speaker
    But I hear it.
  • speaker
    And.
  • speaker
    I went through Laramie.
  • speaker
    I went to the spot and I thought,
  • speaker
    you know, this is crazy,
  • speaker
    just crazy.
  • speaker
    So I came back to New York
  • speaker
    and continued to do the work That
  • speaker
    All May Freely Serve. What
  • speaker
    came out of that was
  • speaker
    a conference
  • speaker
    Rock Stars and Prophets: Generations of Love and Service
  • speaker
    in 2015
  • speaker
    in which someone had,
  • speaker
    I know that story, there is a wonderful
  • speaker
    story about that but somebody had
  • speaker
    gifted us some funds
  • speaker
    who was not part of the church, but
  • speaker
    who knew me and who had some funds
  • speaker
    that he had to distribute.
  • speaker
    And he said, "You know, I give a lot
  • speaker
    of money away, so I usually don't
  • speaker
    know the people I give it to.
  • speaker
    I'm so happy to give it to you." I'm
  • speaker
    going, "This is great," you know?
  • speaker
    And we use that to bring together
  • speaker
    at Stony Point.
  • speaker
    It's almost like inclusio to bring
  • speaker
    together in Stony Point, we had 75
  • speaker
    people.
  • speaker
    We called them up. We went back
  • speaker
    to the earliest person in the
  • speaker
    movement who was still living,
  • speaker
    whether they were part of the church
  • speaker
    anymore or not, whether they'd be
  • speaker
    kicked out, whether they stayed
  • speaker
    with, whoever was part of this
  • speaker
    movement. And we invited everybody
  • speaker
    from 1974 we could find
  • speaker
    all the way up to 2015,
  • speaker
    and they said, "Well, we can't afford." "No,
  • speaker
    you don't have to pay." "What?"
  • speaker
    "We will, if you can pay pay, if you
  • speaker
    can pay a part, pay, if you can't
  • speaker
    pay any we'll get you the plane,
  • speaker
    we'll get you the ticket, we'll fly
  • speaker
    you in." It was
  • speaker
    remarkable to see
  • speaker
    these rock stars, these prophets,
  • speaker
    these prophets and prophetesses
  • speaker
    Especially
  • speaker
    the women, Janie and
  • speaker
    so many people just sitting around
  • speaker
    and talking about what they had
  • speaker
    done. And we set up,
  • speaker
    we told the story of our lives
  • speaker
    by asking people to pick a
  • speaker
    particular event that meant
  • speaker
    something to them that they may
  • speaker
    have been a part of during a decade
  • speaker
    or so, and that
  • speaker
    then we we gathered them together
  • speaker
    and we told the story of the decades
  • speaker
    through their stories.
  • speaker
    And at the end of it, the last
  • speaker
    day, two days
  • speaker
    before it was over,
  • speaker
    the Supreme Court had passed
  • speaker
    marriage equality.
  • speaker
    And so I scrambled down
  • speaker
    to a bakery in
  • speaker
    Palisades, New York, or wherever we
  • speaker
    were, somewhere over there
  • speaker
    on the other side of the river and
  • speaker
    got them to make us a four layer
  • speaker
    wedding cake.
  • speaker
    And then on the last day we rolled
  • speaker
    it in and we had invited
  • speaker
    everyone and I mean everyone,
  • speaker
    we'd invited all of the
  • speaker
    affinity groups along
  • speaker
    with members of All That May Freely Serve.
  • speaker
    Because really, that's what you have
  • speaker
    to do.
  • speaker
    You know, if you want to be who you
  • speaker
    are and you can't just cut people
  • speaker
    out if you're upset with them or
  • speaker
    agree with them.
  • speaker
    And it was a fabulous thing.
  • speaker
    So after that event, I realized
  • speaker
    that it was time, you know
  • speaker
    we were. Other people were doing the
  • speaker
    work we had.
  • speaker
    And there's a danger you can
  • speaker
    continue to carry on an organization
  • speaker
    long after its work is
  • speaker
    done.
  • speaker
    And as a result of that, it just
  • speaker
    sort of becomes something that, oh
  • speaker
    yeah, it's out there, I don't know what it's doing,
  • speaker
    or who are they or where they've
  • speaker
    been?
  • speaker
    So we very intentionally
  • speaker
    planned
  • speaker
    a closure seminary, a closure
  • speaker
    ceremony, a celebration
  • speaker
    in December of last
  • speaker
    year, we had like 100
  • speaker
    people on a Zoom call
  • speaker
    and it and we gave
  • speaker
    everybody who wanted to a chance to
  • speaker
    speak about it.
  • speaker
    We had Janie Spahr spoke, and this
  • speaker
    was pretty cool because Janie spoke.
  • speaker
    Lisa Larges, who's wonderful and was
  • speaker
    the executive director and leader
  • speaker
    for a critical period of 10 years
  • speaker
    or so that I followed.
  • speaker
    And then I had a chance to be sort
  • speaker
    of the moderator of it.
  • speaker
    But here was an organization whose
  • speaker
    three executive directors
  • speaker
    over the course of its history were
  • speaker
    all present.
  • speaker
    And.
  • speaker
    When we did that.
  • speaker
    That All May Freely Serve
  • speaker
    became a moment in
  • speaker
    history.
  • speaker
    That had a beginning, had an end, had a place, had done its work, had
  • speaker
    moved into the general population
  • speaker
    of our work together and in many
  • speaker
    ways, others who maybe just learned
  • speaker
    from us had nothing to do with the
  • speaker
    church, but
  • speaker
    it became something that you
  • speaker
    were a part of for a time.
  • speaker
    And if you were there, you were
  • speaker
    part of it, and if you weren't, you
  • speaker
    heard of it.
  • speaker
    But it gave meaning in a very
  • speaker
    deep and important way to the people
  • speaker
    who had sacrificed and contributed
  • speaker
    their lives and themselves to the
  • speaker
    work.
  • speaker
    It brought it
  • speaker
    meaning in a way that is
  • speaker
    still very powerful, so it's been
  • speaker
    quite a journey.
  • speaker
    I never thought I'd be called
  • speaker
    to it to to celebrate.
  • speaker
    It's it's fair, but you know,
  • speaker
    it's an important thing, I think, to
  • speaker
    learn that there's beginnings and
  • speaker
    there's ends and.
  • speaker
    There's power in both and everything
  • speaker
    in between.
  • speaker
    Well, I've kept you for about an
  • speaker
    hour here now, so
  • speaker
    I'll just give you a moment.
  • speaker
    There's so much I want to talk to
  • speaker
    you about.
  • speaker
    Archival wise, there are so many
  • speaker
    things you've been bringing up that
  • speaker
    I've been scribbling down.
  • speaker
    I'll just give you a chance
  • speaker
    if there's anything else you want to
  • speaker
    talk about for the for the
  • speaker
    interview.
  • speaker
    Any last final comments or
  • speaker
    anything maybe you wanted to talk
  • speaker
    about that didn't come up.
  • speaker
    No, and thank you for the you're
  • speaker
    very generous with your time.
  • speaker
    Thank you, and thank you for letting
  • speaker
    me share
  • speaker
    these parts of who I am with
  • speaker
    you.
  • speaker
    No, thank you. It's an absolutely
  • speaker
    incredible story.
Details
Title

Ray Bagnuolo oral history, 2021.

Description

Raymond Bagnuolo was born in November of 1951 and grew up in a Roman Catholic family in the Bronx, New York. Ray spent seventeen years teaching K-12 in the Ossining Public Schools in Ossining, New York. In 1995, he was introduced to That All May Freely Serve and began attending South Presbyterian Church in Dobbs Ferry, New York. In 2005, he was ordained as Minister of Word and Sacrament in the PC(USA), as an openly gay man. Ray accepted a leadership role at That All May Freely Serve in 2013 and spent several years traveling the country and advocating for a fully inclusive church.

Creator

Bagnuolo, Raymond. (interviewee)
Wittrig, Elizabeth L. (interviewer)

Date

2021
April 27, 2021

Type of resource

moving image

Genre

oral histories
interviews

Form

born digital
video recordings

Extent

331 MB (1 MP4 file)

Subject names

That All May Freely Serve (Association)
Bagnuolo, Raymond.
Spahr, Jane Adams.

Topics

Homosexuality--Religious aspects--Presbyterian Church.
Homosexuality--Religious aspects--Catholic Church.
Ordination of lesbians.
Ordination of gays.

Geographic subjects

North and Central America--United States

Rights status

IN COPYRIGHT - NON-COMMERCIAL USE PERMITTED; http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/

Physical location

ARCHIVES 21-0435; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA

Related item

Ray Bagnuolo oral history, 2021.--http://prestohost68.inmagic.com/Presto/content/Detail.aspx?ctID=Y2RiNWNk...

Identifier (local)

21-0435_Bagnuolo

PID (Persistent Identifier)

islandora:286178

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