Bertram Johnson oral history, 2019.

Primary tabs

Download

TEXT

Transcript

speaker
This is Sonia Prescott and
speaker
Elizabeth Wittrig. We
speaker
are interviewing Bertram Johnson
speaker
as part of our oral history project.
speaker
And today is November 12th.
speaker
So our first question. You
speaker
graduated from Princeton Theological
speaker
Seminary in 1996,
speaker
which
speaker
was around the time that Amendment B and Amendment A were first
speaker
introduced at General Assembly.
speaker
Do you remember when you first heard
speaker
about Amendment B?
speaker
I don't remember like the first time
speaker
I heard about it, but I remember the
speaker
conversation about it
speaker
and its impact on seminary
speaker
community and folks moving forward
speaker
with ordination.
speaker
Like you said, I finished seminary
speaker
in 96 and
speaker
was in the ordination process with
speaker
the Presbyterian Church
speaker
and was just in the process of
speaker
coming out.
speaker
And so I
speaker
definitely felt like. Well it felt
speaker
like an impediment. And
speaker
another reason for me to stay
speaker
closeted.
speaker
So I really didn't
speaker
respond to it.
speaker
It was more like an internal, like it
speaker
just added to my discernment process
speaker
on if I should move forward or not.
speaker
And did you decide to move forward?
speaker
So,
speaker
yeah, I stayed in the ordination
speaker
process.
speaker
I was a candidate.
speaker
I grew up in Florida and
speaker
I was working at University
speaker
Presbyterian Church in Seattle at
speaker
the time.
speaker
I had a job there right
speaker
out of seminary.
speaker
So I finished my MDiv in 96
speaker
my MSW in 97, moved
speaker
to Seattle for what was supposed to
speaker
be a year position.
speaker
Moved
speaker
there, met my first boyfriend
speaker
and sort of unexpectedly
speaker
came into that relationship.
speaker
He was a friend.
speaker
He was also involved in ministry.
speaker
We were in a men's bible
speaker
study together, had
speaker
feelings for each other, struggled
speaker
through all of that.
speaker
I mean, this is sort maybe
speaker
way too much more information than
speaker
you want,
speaker
but was starting to come
speaker
out
speaker
and accept myself as a gay man
speaker
at the same time as I was trying to
speaker
move forward in the ordination
speaker
process and had lots
speaker
of questions and doubts about myself
speaker
and how do
speaker
I do this with a sense of integrity?
speaker
There was a position that I was
speaker
offered at, doing campus
speaker
ministry
speaker
in Seattle and I was really excited
speaker
about it, but felt
speaker
that I couldn't pursue it because
speaker
the organization was more
speaker
conservative and they had a
speaker
statement, you know like
speaker
an ethical moral statement that
speaker
you had to agree to this, this and
speaker
this.
speaker
And I just felt like I couldn't do
speaker
it. And so that was one of the
speaker
reasons why I felt like I couldn't
speaker
move forward in ministry at that
speaker
point.
speaker
And then I went to a church where it
speaker
was actually which was
speaker
more accepting.
speaker
And people there knew that I was
speaker
gay.
speaker
But
speaker
still, the broader statement of
speaker
the church is that you have to
speaker
agree to sort
speaker
of this line of reasoning or this
speaker
form of theology.
speaker
And ultimately, it just felt like
speaker
if, if
speaker
the church didn't want me as I was
speaker
fully, then I shouldn't be there.
speaker
And so I gave up sort of
speaker
the idea or the notion of being
speaker
called to ministry
speaker
and just let it sit, because I just
speaker
didn't feel like I could be in the
speaker
church and be out because I had
speaker
really come to grow and accept
speaker
myself as a gay man.
speaker
And then found that the church, well
speaker
knew that the church didn't want me
speaker
and the church had doubled down on
speaker
that.
speaker
At
speaker
that point or further along did you
speaker
ever consider leaving the PC(USA) like leaving the denomination?
speaker
Yes, I did.
speaker
I did.
speaker
There was one point where I'd
speaker
actually been at this church I was at, Mount Baker Park Presbyterian
speaker
Church for like 10 years and, for a variety of reasons had great
speaker
community there. But
speaker
felt like I needed
speaker
to be another place and I thought of
speaker
either there's an AME Church,
speaker
so more predominantly Black,
speaker
historically Black
speaker
congregation that was within
speaker
walking distance of my apartment or
speaker
a Presbyterian church
speaker
Madrona Grace Presbyterian, which
speaker
was like a ten minute drive from my
speaker
place.
speaker
And I went to visit
speaker
Madrona one Sunday and
speaker
I just felt like I have to be here.
speaker
I just knew that its was the place
speaker
for me. Yeah,
speaker
I thought about leaving the
speaker
denomination, but I just didn't feel
speaker
called to it. I felt called into
speaker
the Presbyterian Church.
speaker
I grew up Baptist
speaker
and
speaker
the Presbyterian Church had been the place where
speaker
I got to grow and learn and
speaker
experience life and leadership in
speaker
the church.
speaker
And yeah, I didn't feel released
speaker
from it.
speaker
Can you talk a little bit about the environment of
speaker
Princeton Theological Seminary
speaker
during the mid 90s
speaker
specifically for LGBTQIA+
speaker
folks on campus?
speaker
Well, so I started there in
speaker
fall of 93
speaker
and a Princeton declaration
speaker
came out I think the year before, the spring
speaker
of 93, and
speaker
so that was a group of conservative
speaker
students and faculty
speaker
and I guess staff who signed
speaker
on to this declaration about
speaker
sexuality in the church.
speaker
And it was very divisive and caused
speaker
a big rift in the community at that
speaker
point.
speaker
And so when I started, that was the
speaker
year before I started, so when I
speaker
started that fall, I
speaker
felt like the seminary environment
speaker
was very tender.
speaker
Conversation about sex
speaker
and sexuality and ordination
speaker
had become such a like
speaker
a
speaker
touchstone or
speaker
electric topic on campus
speaker
that many people were not talking
speaker
about it then.
speaker
Because so much damage has been done
speaker
the year before.
speaker
And so for me, it felt like
speaker
conversation had actually been sort
speaker
of suppressed.
speaker
And people, because of the wounds
speaker
that happened just months before,
speaker
people were less willing to engage
speaker
in conversation.
speaker
They happened in small pockets, but
speaker
not as much publicly as they
speaker
had before.
speaker
In terms of your experience with
speaker
different congregations, have you
speaker
always served in welcoming congregations?
speaker
No.
speaker
No, I haven't.
speaker
So
speaker
University Presbyterian in Seattle
speaker
is
speaker
I think it's like four, it was about four
speaker
or five thousand members when I was
speaker
there. The senior minister when I
speaker
was there was a trustee at
speaker
Princeton Seminary.
speaker
And again, this was a time when I
speaker
was not out and embracing
speaker
myself. And so I went
speaker
to the church because I had a great
speaker
opportunity, just going to be for a
speaker
year working in urban ministry
speaker
and putting some of my
speaker
social work skills together and
speaker
helping the church move toward more
speaker
economic and racial justice
speaker
ethic.
speaker
But at the same time, the church on
speaker
the broader level was
speaker
fighting this battle around
speaker
ordination and sex and sexuality.
speaker
So that was the first church that
speaker
I served out of seminary
speaker
and I wasn't ordained.
speaker
But still, there was a lot of
speaker
conflict even in that community
speaker
of a church that size there were
speaker
people there who were more open and
speaker
affirming.
speaker
I don't know of many people who were
speaker
out or really anyone who was
speaker
out there because
speaker
it didn't feel like a safe place
speaker
because the sort of the
speaker
theological battle lines had been
speaker
drawn so clearly.
speaker
And it was obvious where
speaker
the staff and the senior ministers
speaker
stood at that point.
speaker
And so it was not a
speaker
really safe or welcoming place for
speaker
me to be in.
speaker
I was already there as like the one
speaker
African American person on staff
speaker
to be. To come out
speaker
or to express even
speaker
questions about ordination and
speaker
issues of sexuality definitely was
speaker
not a place where I felt free to do
speaker
that.
speaker
So you were
speaker
ordained at Madrona Grace Presbyterian Church. Could
speaker
you describe your ordination
speaker
process?
speaker
Gosh,
speaker
long.
speaker
So, yeah, I finished I'd
speaker
finished seminary in 96.
speaker
I got
speaker
ordained in 2014.
speaker
So I have friends from
speaker
seminary who'd already been
speaker
in their second, third, fourth
speaker
call by that point
speaker
and I don't
speaker
resent
speaker
my process.
speaker
I'm grateful for knowing
speaker
the way that God has walked with me
speaker
through my process.
speaker
But like I said, I grew up Baptist,
speaker
joined the Presbyterian Church in
speaker
college.
speaker
Felt a call to ministry during
speaker
that time. Went
speaker
to Princeton Seminary and started the ordination
speaker
process toward the end of my
speaker
discernment there.
speaker
I wasn't really
speaker
sure if I could be Presbyterian and
speaker
I didn't know any Black
speaker
Presbyterians prior.
speaker
And the
speaker
Presbyterian Church was to me
speaker
largely white.
speaker
I mean, still, this
speaker
is largely white denomination.
speaker
And so there were some
speaker
cultural theological issues that I
speaker
had. Like, do
speaker
I fit in here? Is this a safe place
speaker
for me? And I think also
speaker
lurking in the background was the
speaker
question of sex
speaker
and sexuality and how do I make
speaker
sense of myself at this point.
speaker
So I finished,
speaker
like I said, in 96 and
speaker
I think in 97 or so was approved
speaker
to,
speaker
certified to take a call. But
speaker
again, because of where the church,
speaker
the church was and decisions
speaker
around Amendment A or B, I felt
speaker
like I
speaker
don't think I can do this with a sense
speaker
of integrity.
speaker
And so like I said, I left the
speaker
ordination process.
speaker
I forget what year it
speaker
was. I think I was a candidate for a
speaker
number of years and then just
speaker
decided it doesn't feel like the
speaker
ethos or
speaker
the theology is gonna be more
speaker
welcoming. And so I decided
speaker
I
speaker
told my committee there in Seattle that
speaker
I don't feel a sense of call to
speaker
ministry right now, which is, well I
speaker
don't think it's totally a lie.
speaker
It felt more like this is a way for
speaker
me to preserve my safety in the
speaker
church.
speaker
But I don't feel a
speaker
sense of call to a church that
speaker
doesn't want me and doesn't welcome
speaker
my full gifts.
speaker
And so I left the
speaker
process, I forget what year it was. It was after 2000.
speaker
And then I forget what year
speaker
was it 2012 when the polity changed again?
speaker
2011.
speaker
11, 2011 when the polity
speaker
became more open for
speaker
LGBTQ people.
speaker
And I remember at
speaker
that point, friends who knew me as
speaker
an out man called and said, oh, you
speaker
can be ordained now.
speaker
And I said, well, why would I want
speaker
to do that because I'd left the
speaker
process.
speaker
And again,
speaker
felt that, you know, why should I
speaker
squeeze myself into the confines
speaker
of the church if it really doesn't
speaker
fully embrace me like the polity has
speaker
change. But I didn't know if people's
speaker
hearts had changed.
speaker
And if it was a place where
speaker
I could be myself as an out gay man
speaker
and feel embraced and that my gifts would be honored and free to grow.
speaker
Do you want the full story?
speaker
There's like a whole elaborate
speaker
story of getting suckered back
speaker
into the ordination process.
speaker
Yeah, we want it. If you're willing.
speaker
I was at, so I'd been at Mount Baker for a number of years,
speaker
ten years or so, and then started
speaker
attending Madrona Grace.
speaker
I told myself after 10 years
speaker
at Mount Baker that I wasn't gonna
speaker
do anything at Madrona Grace.
speaker
I'm just going to go.
speaker
I'm just going to worship.
speaker
I'm not going to get involved in
speaker
anything.
speaker
Nothing for at least a year, for
speaker
the first year.
speaker
And the first thing I did
speaker
was sing in the Christmas Eve
speaker
service. And I was working in
speaker
musical theater at that point
speaker
and I sang a solo.
speaker
Oh, holy night.
speaker
And after that, people were like
speaker
you're in the choir.
speaker
It's not like I had an option, just
speaker
like it was like a command.
speaker
And I was like, oh, okay.
speaker
So that was like week 50 into the
speaker
52 weeks I told myself I can't do
speaker
anything at church.
speaker
And so I started singing in
speaker
the choir at the church.
speaker
And within a few months,
speaker
I could see that there was like this
speaker
division between what was happening
speaker
with the music ministry and what was
speaker
happening with the preaching and the
speaker
rest of the liturgy.
speaker
And it didn't feel like things were
speaker
united. And so I
speaker
became sort of this go between
speaker
the pastor and the music director
speaker
who were not I'd say fully on the
speaker
same page at that point.
speaker
And so I could stand in the gap and
speaker
help bridge the two given
speaker
my theological training and my music
speaker
experience.
speaker
And so after doing that for a number
speaker
of months.
speaker
Well, actually, there's there's
speaker
another piece that was.
speaker
One night I was leaving work.
speaker
I was working in HIV prevention,
speaker
research and education
speaker
at Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research
speaker
Center and was leaving
speaker
work one night, walking home and
speaker
getting ready to go to choir
speaker
rehearsal. And sort of had a bad
speaker
attitude about it because
speaker
of some of the frustrations that I
speaker
saw in the music ministry of the
speaker
church, that
speaker
people who loved music and loved to
speaker
sing, but it didn't feel like it was
speaker
necessarily from a place of worship
speaker
and connection to God.
speaker
And I was frustrated in the
speaker
sense of looking forward to going to
speaker
a rehearsal that I was frustrated.
speaker
Like God.
speaker
Like what?
speaker
What do we do to change this?
speaker
How do we make this actually more
speaker
worshipful and vibrant?
speaker
And what I heard God say was like,
speaker
oh, you just need to be their pastor.
speaker
I was like, oh, okay, I get it.
speaker
Like pastor them, support them
speaker
through this experience and help
speaker
them understand how when we come
speaker
to worship and we come to sing
speaker
in church, like we're actually here
speaker
to worship God and we're
speaker
here to use our gifts and our
speaker
experiences as a conduit or
speaker
as a as a bridge that help people
speaker
engage in worship.
speaker
I was like, okay. God, yeah, great.
speaker
I can do that. Yeah, I'll just need
speaker
to pastor them, sort of shepherd
speaker
them through this experience.
speaker
And then
speaker
maybe two months later Mark,
speaker
who was the minister at Madrona Grace at the time, said
speaker
he wanted to talk to me about
speaker
something. And so we had lunch one
speaker
day after church and he
speaker
said, so I want you to think about
speaker
this, but what's
speaker
preventing you from being ordained
speaker
right now?
speaker
And I was like, crap. And
speaker
I knew that there
speaker
was no reason for me not to be
speaker
ordained into this
speaker
role of worship pastor.
speaker
Other than anything that was fear
speaker
related
speaker
and I felt like I could sort of hear
speaker
God's voice laughing at me in the
speaker
background because I'd already said
speaker
yes.
speaker
I said yes to God. Yes.
speaker
I will be their pastor sort of in
speaker
the general sense of I will support
speaker
these people and help them connect
speaker
to their own sense of faith
speaker
in a way that's vibrant and dynamic
speaker
and helps pull people into worship.
speaker
And then when Mark asked me to do
speaker
it, like two months later, I was
speaker
like, I couldn't think of a reason
speaker
or a way to say no that
speaker
felt true to
speaker
what I'd already agreed to to God.
speaker
And really sort of growing
speaker
back into my sense of call and that
speaker
I had questioned to that point if
speaker
a person can lose a sense of call,
speaker
that it may come and go.
speaker
But I think
speaker
I don't think I ever lost it.
speaker
I think there wasn't the place
speaker
for me to to use my gifts in the way
speaker
that felt authentic
speaker
and almost unique to
speaker
who I am.
speaker
So I took a couple of weeks and
speaker
tried to think of reasons that
speaker
weren't fear based
speaker
and weren't just like me trying to
speaker
flee again
speaker
the ordination process.
speaker
And I felt like if I didn't say
speaker
yes this time, it would come back
speaker
to swallow me up
speaker
and I'd be sent to Nineveh,
speaker
somewhere I don't really want to be.
speaker
So I might as well say yes to God
speaker
now and
speaker
accept the call that I had.
speaker
And so I met with Mark two weeks
speaker
later, and it was basically like,
speaker
yes, I agree.
speaker
And then we got
speaker
me back into the ordination process,
speaker
which took about
speaker
I think six
speaker
months I came back as a
speaker
candidate in Seattle Presbyterian
speaker
and then went before Presbytery,
speaker
and even that experience was there
speaker
were some
speaker
challenges around that. The
speaker
night that I was examined on the
speaker
floor of Presbytery, I knew there
speaker
were people who knew that I was out
speaker
and I don't know.
speaker
It was never discussed.
speaker
But I knew that people knew that I
speaker
was out. And
speaker
after I had been examined and
speaker
approved, folks
speaker
from across the Presbytery came and
speaker
gave me hugs and blessings and
speaker
shared much
speaker
gratitude. And people were
speaker
saying thank you for staying in the
speaker
process or coming back to the
speaker
process. And there was
speaker
a guy who was a member on staff at
speaker
another larger church in the area.
speaker
And he
speaker
said, "Hey, we
speaker
love you and we love your church.
speaker
But for the peace, purity and unity
speaker
of the denomination or of the
speaker
Presbytery, let's not make a
speaker
big thing about this." Like
speaker
we're letting you get ordained.
speaker
Basically, like we've
speaker
allowed this, don't
speaker
do anything to upset us now, which
speaker
felt to me like,
speaker
oh, you've been welcomed here,
speaker
but we're gonna put you in your
speaker
place. So don't forget
speaker
that we can sort of make or break
speaker
you. That's what it felt like.
speaker
And so that was, you know,
speaker
within moments of being approved for
speaker
ordination.
speaker
And so it was a sign to me that,
speaker
yes, God has a place
speaker
for me in the church, but it's not
speaker
going to be an easy road still.
speaker
And that even though I'm
speaker
welcomed here
speaker
and there are many people who were
speaker
joyful and supportive,
speaker
that there are still people who
speaker
don't recognize me or see me
speaker
in the church.
speaker
And it felt it feels like
speaker
the way that oppression works in the
speaker
church.
speaker
You know, that women's
speaker
ordination has been approved for,
speaker
you know, over a generation now, but
speaker
still there are churches that don't
speaker
accept women. There are
speaker
churches that are still largely
speaker
white and divided by
speaker
racism and white supremacy.
speaker
They wouldn't name it as such, but yet they would
speaker
never consider
speaker
hiring a pastor who was a person
speaker
of color.
speaker
And in the same way
speaker
for LGBTQIA folks
speaker
that, you know, it's
speaker
a decision that the
speaker
broader denomination has approved,
speaker
but there's still churches
speaker
that would not welcome
speaker
queer identified folks.
speaker
And so,
speaker
again, it felt like this is a moment
speaker
where God's saying, yes,
speaker
I affirm you and approve of who
speaker
you are and what you're called to
speaker
do, but realize that
speaker
you will have challenges.
speaker
And that ultimately,
speaker
I really have to rely on God to get
speaker
me through this experience.
speaker
Could you talk a little bit about
speaker
what the actual service was like,
speaker
the ordination service?
speaker
Some folks had mentioned, you know,
speaker
the extent to which it was very
speaker
personal, very like celebratory moment?
speaker
Yeah, my ordination was awesome.
speaker
I loved it.
speaker
I called it my one man solo
speaker
marriage to God.
speaker
It felt like it did feel like a
speaker
wedding at that point,
speaker
a union.
speaker
And
speaker
it was the longest
speaker
ordination I've been to,
speaker
but I had sort of every
speaker
aspect or the aspects of my
speaker
life that were meaningful.
speaker
I had a Toni Morrison
speaker
reading. I had dance.
speaker
I had Gospel
speaker
music,
speaker
choral music and friends from
speaker
seminary came.
speaker
I'll say that a friend, a dear
speaker
friend from seminary came
speaker
to my ordination in 2014 and I was
speaker
thrilled to be able to take part in
speaker
his ordination service
speaker
just three
speaker
weeks ago.
speaker
Mike Hagman has gone on
speaker
and gotten a PhD
speaker
from Princeton and gone on and taught and done
speaker
an amazing job of
speaker
education in the church,
speaker
but just now he just got ordained.
speaker
And I'm grateful for
speaker
his faithfulness and for his
speaker
dedication to staying in the process
speaker
considering we both finished
speaker
seminary in 96 and so 2019 he's
speaker
getting ordained, got ordained.
speaker
But my ordination service felt
speaker
the feeling was just joy
speaker
and love and affirmation.
speaker
And
speaker
like I lived in Seattle for 19
speaker
years and got ordained I guess in
speaker
the last four or
speaker
the last three years that I was
speaker
there and I'd worked in three
speaker
churches at that point.
speaker
I'd done hospital chaplaincy.
speaker
I'd worked in musical theater for a
speaker
number of years and had
speaker
dance community, had friends from
speaker
all over sort of the spectrum of
speaker
my life who were there and people
speaker
who, you know, church people and
speaker
people with no religious
speaker
faith or no
speaker
formal faith but
speaker
who were all there and it felt like
speaker
my entire community upheld me in
speaker
many ways.
speaker
And realizing that my ministry and
speaker
that I think
speaker
as an out gay man who loves God
speaker
and is committed to the church,
speaker
that just being there, so many
speaker
people who've been wounded by, you
speaker
know this, by the
speaker
experience of organized religion and
speaker
Christianity and the church.
speaker
And to stand in that place
speaker
sort of
speaker
as a bridge between
speaker
sometimes secular and sacred
speaker
lives or, you know,
speaker
people who don't feel welcome in the
speaker
church, but who go
speaker
and to offer them God's
speaker
grace.
speaker
It may not they may never go back
speaker
to a Presbyterian church and they
speaker
may never feel
speaker
like they want to join a church.
speaker
But to believe that God
speaker
loves them,
speaker
whether they're queer atheists or
speaker
whatever, or this notion
speaker
of a God that loves them, felt
speaker
like a really healing opportunity
speaker
for me and for the community.
speaker
And I think that's one of the things
speaker
that was most joyful about my
speaker
ordination for me is that it was
speaker
really a place where all people
speaker
could come and experience, at least
speaker
in that moment, a sense of God's
speaker
grace and justice in the world.
speaker
And some of my best friends who were
speaker
were not religious folks felt like,
speaker
they came and they heard the sermon
speaker
that Michael Livingston,
speaker
who was the chaplain of Princeton at
speaker
that time and has
speaker
been a mentor throughout my life,
speaker
he's now the interim senior
speaker
minister at
speaker
Riverside.
speaker
He preached a great sermon
speaker
that
speaker
that helped everyone to understand
speaker
that they have a role in God's
speaker
justice or justice in the world,
speaker
regardless of if you ascribe
speaker
to a belief in a god or not.
speaker
So it felt
speaker
like what I hoped
speaker
hope for was accomplished in
speaker
creating a place where all people
speaker
could come and feel
speaker
God's love are loved as a whole.
speaker
So the next question I have for you.
speaker
Can you talk a little bit about your
speaker
first full time ordained call at
speaker
Riverside
speaker
Church in 2016?
speaker
Yes. So I started at Riverside in
speaker
February 2016
speaker
and
speaker
my title was Minister of
speaker
Justice, Advocacy and Change.
speaker
And I was on staff there for about
speaker
three and a half years and really
speaker
grateful for that opportunity
speaker
because it did feel like a
speaker
wedding of my passions - my
speaker
experience in working as, well
speaker
in social work. I have a
speaker
Masters in Social Work from Rutgers
speaker
and the engagement
speaker
in the church to move
speaker
in the direction of greater justice
speaker
for all people and the church has
speaker
been an icon
speaker
or sort of a model
speaker
for social justice movements
speaker
in Christian communities for
speaker
decades.
speaker
And it was an honor to be able to
speaker
stand in that on
speaker
that staff. To share in that staff for the three
speaker
and a half years that I did.
speaker
Some of the
speaker
work that we were getting involved
speaker
in with the Poor People's Campaign
speaker
under the direction of Reverend Dr.
speaker
Leslie Harris and
speaker
Dr. William Barber.
speaker
We were involved in immigration
speaker
issues.
speaker
The church has always has
speaker
had a ministry called Maranatha,
speaker
which I think is one of the longest
speaker
running LGBTQ ministries
speaker
in a Christian church or longest
speaker
running. They were established
speaker
in the 70s.
speaker
So I think they just had their
speaker
30th anniversary or 40th
speaker
anniversary. They had an anniversary just recently. And a variety of
speaker
small
speaker
local ministries in ways that were
speaker
modeling and trying to share what
speaker
God is doing in justice ministries.
speaker
So it was great to be there.
speaker
One point that I definitely
speaker
want to talk about was the summer
speaker
retreats for queer pastors, pastors
speaker
that were organized in the early
speaker
2000s. Could you speak
speaker
a little bit about those retreats and what they were like for you?
speaker
So I think I
speaker
got back in the ordination process
speaker
in 2012
speaker
or so.
speaker
And knew of Parity
speaker
or actually what
speaker
was it called then?
speaker
Presbyterian Welcome.
speaker
I knew Presbyterian Welcome through
speaker
Mark, who is the pastor at Turner
speaker
Grace. He
speaker
told me about it. And at that point
speaker
I was somewhat
speaker
reluctant to get involved just because I didn't
speaker
know. Yeah,
speaker
I just hadn't been involved in the
speaker
church on a national level for a
speaker
while and I
speaker
didn't know if this was gonna
speaker
be a community where I felt
speaker
seen and that these were my
speaker
people.
speaker
But I went.
speaker
I was blessed to
speaker
get a scholarship to go and
speaker
immediately felt
speaker
like, oh, these are my people.
speaker
And these are people who some
speaker
of whom had been in the struggle,
speaker
like in the time that I had
speaker
forgone and
speaker
said no to the ordination and
speaker
continuing the ordination
speaker
process, that there were people who were
speaker
fighting and working behind the
speaker
scenes, some folks who were
speaker
getting ordained and they weren't
speaker
out. And then some people who were
speaker
out and really
speaker
pushing their presbyteries to
speaker
embrace the gifts that God has for
speaker
all the people of God.
speaker
And so I was really humbled to
speaker
be a part of that group and met
speaker
some great friends. Friends who are
speaker
now colleagues in ministry here in
speaker
New York Presbytery.
speaker
Reverend Ashley
speaker
DeTar-Birt was small
speaker
group leader then and I met Reverend
speaker
Eric Thomas
speaker
then and also Rev.
speaker
Derrick McQueen.
speaker
And so those were just, and so
speaker
many other people, but those are three
speaker
folks who are here in New York City
speaker
Presbytery who
speaker
are also all African American.
speaker
And it was just
speaker
great to be
speaker
in a queer
speaker
community where I was also
speaker
surrounded by and supported by
speaker
people from the African American
speaker
community, because
speaker
sometimes it feels like you're going
speaker
to have to have one or the other.
speaker
But it was great to be in the place
speaker
where I could be my full self as a
speaker
as a queer Black
speaker
man and and have a sense of
speaker
understanding, because
speaker
just just because we're in a queer
speaker
space doesn't
speaker
mean that it's not absent of
speaker
racial prejudice and sort of
speaker
tokenism that happens in
speaker
the broader church.
speaker
And so I was grateful to find those
speaker
relationships. And now to be in New
speaker
York and to have them as
speaker
friends. Ashley and I just
speaker
co-led a workshop here in
speaker
the presbytery two
speaker
weeks ago or three
speaker
weeks ago on what does it
speaker
mean for your church to be open and
speaker
affirming. So there are church
speaker
congregations that say they are
speaker
welcoming of queer identified
speaker
people, but what does that look
speaker
like? How does your liturgy, how
speaker
does your space show
speaker
that you welcome them? How does the
speaker
signage in your church and the way
speaker
that you talk about God create
speaker
an environment that all people know that they're welcome there.
speaker
So it was great to do that with her.
speaker
Another question that we had.
speaker
Oh and also one other thing. I was just remembering Alex McNeill was
speaker
ordained last month.
speaker
And Alex is one of the first people
speaker
I met that first morning
speaker
there at camp.
speaker
And it's great to
speaker
see his
speaker
faithfulness and tremendous
speaker
leadership skills being recognized
speaker
finally.
speaker
And I wasn't able to attend
speaker
this ordination, but I have
speaker
many friends who were there and just
speaker
so grateful that the church is
speaker
welcoming him in.
speaker
And as the second trans man, trans
speaker
identified
speaker
person to be ordained.
speaker
So, yeah, you mentioned
speaker
that all of you who are at these
speaker
retreats, what were the demographics generally like at these retreats?
speaker
Was there a significant community of color within these retreats?
speaker
Not
speaker
so much a huge
speaker
number of people of color there.
speaker
But I will say to
speaker
the
speaker
benefit and my gratitude
speaker
for the leadership.
speaker
So Reverend Mieke Vandersall, who's also a member of this presbytery, did
speaker
a great job, she
speaker
and John Russell Stanger,
speaker
creating a welcoming environment
speaker
that was really
speaker
use this term in this way, but like
speaker
intersectional in that
speaker
they weren't just dealing with queer
speaker
issues.
speaker
They were pushing the envelope and
speaker
our understanding of what it means
speaker
to be a welcoming place for
speaker
anyone who's been marginalized in
speaker
the church.
speaker
And so, you know, trans,
speaker
Black, white, Latinx,
speaker
whatever.
speaker
That to me, it felt like, oh the
speaker
church is not just
speaker
sort of working from a particular
speaker
box or sort of siloed
speaker
expression of justice.
speaker
It's really this
speaker
group working with Presbyterian
speaker
Welcome really helped me see that
speaker
we're not thinking about God's
speaker
grace in one way, but for the full
speaker
expanse of that and challenging
speaker
ourselves around race and
speaker
class and gender and identity,
speaker
sexual orientation and
speaker
so it's I'm still grateful like
speaker
they're people who are who I met
speaker
that first experience
speaker
in 2013
speaker
that are still part of my life and
speaker
friends now.
speaker
And I feel like we support and
speaker
encourage each other to continue to
speaker
grow because this is
speaker
a lifetime of work.
speaker
It's not just, you know, I'm here,
speaker
I'm ordained. And that's done.
speaker
Exactly.
speaker
Who have been your mentors within
speaker
the church?
speaker
My mentors.
speaker
There are a number of people who
speaker
come to mind.
speaker
I will definitely say Michael
speaker
Livingston, who
speaker
has been a friend and supporter
speaker
since my early days at
speaker
Princeton when he was the chaplain
speaker
there.
speaker
And Dr. Geddes,
speaker
Dr. Geddes and Carrie Hanson.
speaker
He's the first African American
speaker
professor at Princeton Seminary.
speaker
I never actually had him as a
speaker
professor, but
speaker
the senior minister of the church I
speaker
attended in college did
speaker
a DMin under Dr. Hanson's
speaker
leadership and I knew him
speaker
through that relationship.
speaker
And Dr. and
speaker
Mrs. Hanson are
speaker
like my second parents.
speaker
I will see them later on this week.
speaker
And he was just recognized.
speaker
They were just recognized with a
speaker
commission painting
speaker
at Princeton Seminary,
speaker
just I guess last month in October.
speaker
And so
speaker
I think just their care for me
speaker
and they've never pushed
speaker
me to come out.
speaker
They gave me the safe place to do
speaker
it.
speaker
And
speaker
one other person from Princeton
speaker
Seminary again, I didn't have as a
speaker
professor, but Dr. James Kay
speaker
when I was really
speaker
struggling around what was happening
speaker
with our national polity and my role
speaker
in the church, I
speaker
called Dr. Kay
speaker
in his office when I was living in I
speaker
was years out of the seminary and
speaker
I called Dr. Kay
speaker
at Princeton Seminary and said, you
speaker
may not remember me, I'm Bertram
speaker
Johnson and
speaker
I need to talk to someone.
speaker
And
speaker
the thing that Dr. Kay said as I was
speaker
wandering and flailing around
speaker
the conversation was that if
speaker
God didn't
speaker
want gay people in church, God would
speaker
stop calling them to ministry
speaker
or God should stop calling them to
speaker
ministry.
speaker
And
speaker
there was,
speaker
he said this probably over
speaker
20 years
speaker
ago now.
speaker
And
speaker
it just gave me a sense of
speaker
confidence that although the larger
speaker
body of the church may not create a
speaker
place for you, but your
speaker
call, your sense of being
speaker
and identity is really rooted in who
speaker
God is and God's
speaker
selection election for you,
speaker
of you.
speaker
And in
speaker
that, the church and our community
speaker
affirm our call.
speaker
But it first comes from God
speaker
to be God's child and then to be
speaker
gifted and put in ministry in this
speaker
particular way. And so, Dr. Kay's
speaker
been
speaker
someone like I said, it didn't have
speaker
a relationship with, but someone who
speaker
showed up in a particular way in my
speaker
life when I really needed
speaker
some external guidance.
speaker
So those are three, three,
speaker
three people or three or four people
speaker
who've been significant in my life.
speaker
So
speaker
what do you think is next or current
speaker
for the church?
speaker
What challenges do LGBTQIA+ pastors
speaker
still face and what
speaker
do you think still needs to be done
speaker
to create a more inclusive church?
speaker
You know, in the
speaker
in the last few years, as
speaker
folks who were maybe
speaker
more theologically conservative have separated
speaker
and the church has
speaker
sort of reshaped its
speaker
structure it
speaker
feels like there's actually greater
speaker
opportunity for not just
speaker
LGBTQIA folks, but voices
speaker
who've been marginalized
speaker
historically
speaker
in predominantly white institutions actually
speaker
get greater opportunity to to
speaker
be ourselves and to move into
speaker
positions of leadership. So I
speaker
think that's true for women.
speaker
I think that's true for queer
speaker
identified people. I think it's also true for racial and ethnic
speaker
minorities.
speaker
As we lean into and listen
speaker
to the voices of those who've been silenced
speaker
and pushed to the sides and
speaker
create a greater opportunity,
speaker
opportunity
speaker
for them to be at the center and to
speaker
be heard that it
speaker
actually creates this sort of the
speaker
beloved kingdom, this, you know,
speaker
this beloved community that God
speaker
desires for us.
speaker
I think the work
speaker
around economic
speaker
and racial justice are key.
speaker
And
speaker
I know you asked me about queer
speaker
issues, but I don't think we can we
speaker
can't just be a one note people
speaker
that racism
speaker
and
speaker
gender discrimination have always
speaker
been a part of our society,
speaker
and as we make inroads and
speaker
strides there, we also
speaker
do that within queer communities
speaker
too. And so
speaker
I think that probably the biggest
speaker
issue right now would be economic
speaker
and racial diversity.
speaker
Well, racism
speaker
in the way that it's manifested as
speaker
economic discrimination.
speaker
I think that's the broader
speaker
issue that we as a society in the
speaker
U.S. and around the world have to
speaker
deal with. The way that we exploit
speaker
and negate, that
speaker
we delegitimize people
speaker
based on principles
speaker
of white supremacy.
speaker
And as we decolonize our theologies,
speaker
we're actually moving to that place
speaker
where like
speaker
God will create a new earth.
speaker
But we're not there yet.
speaker
We taste it and we see glimpses of
speaker
it. But it's a long road
speaker
and it's a battle that we have to
speaker
maintain.
speaker
Do you have any additional questions?
speaker
I was going to ask
speaker
if you wanted to talk just a little about filming Out of Order which was
speaker
about those summer retreats.
speaker
Yeah. Out of Order. I'm
speaker
glad you brought it up.
speaker
You know, I came
speaker
back into the ordination process
speaker
much later than other people.
speaker
And like Alex's story
speaker
is, I don't know, like 14 years or
speaker
so in the making.
speaker
And I guess mine is about that long
speaker
too, but
speaker
it feels different.
speaker
I'm really honored to have my little
speaker
piece. I mean, I'm the first
speaker
African American to be
speaker
out and ordained in
speaker
the denomination.
speaker
And it feels it's a
speaker
humble.
speaker
I don't know. It feels like an honor
speaker
to be the first and it's just by
speaker
chance because I know there are
speaker
other people who were in the process
speaker
and know Eric and Derrick
speaker
were actively in it before me
speaker
or at the same time.
speaker
Just the timing of it worked out
speaker
that I'm here.
speaker
And so when I
speaker
talk about Out of Order and I know I
speaker
have that designation within the
speaker
film, but I really stand on the
speaker
shoulders of the people who
speaker
are in the process at the same time
speaker
and people who've come before me
speaker
who didn't have the opportunity to
speaker
be out, who didn't get
speaker
the opportunity to share their
speaker
stories or to be fully embraced
speaker
within the denomination.
speaker
And so to be
speaker
recognized
speaker
in Out of Order feels, it's this
speaker
weird gift from God
speaker
in some way.
speaker
But I definitely want to say that I
speaker
am not here by myself and
speaker
it's just by chance that I got to be
speaker
this person in that moment.
speaker
But I celebrate the gifts of my
speaker
siblings, my brothers and sisters
speaker
who
speaker
are still fighting to find
speaker
voice in the church, and I say
speaker
that in the Presbyterian Church and
speaker
churches throughout and
speaker
other denominations too. Out of Order should be
speaker
released for
speaker
public consumption sometime soon.
speaker
There's some emails going around
speaker
around that right now and
speaker
it feels a little dated actually,
speaker
it's sort
speaker
of a historic document now,
speaker
considering how the church has
speaker
shifted in
speaker
the past few years. But I think it's
speaker
good to capture the history of the
speaker
church in our stories of the
speaker
time. And the
speaker
struggle still goes on.
speaker
And there are people who will not be
speaker
approved by their churches or their
speaker
presbyteries for ordination because
speaker
of their identities.
speaker
And I think it's important to have
speaker
Out of Order because
speaker
it does show that there are other
speaker
ways of doing it and that you can,
speaker
if you stay persistent
speaker
in this church, that you
speaker
can find support in there. There's a
speaker
community out there of people who
speaker
know how to love and support you.
speaker
And so I'm
speaker
grateful for Out of Order and all
speaker
the folks who were involved. It
speaker
feels like a small,
speaker
not a clique, but a small subset to
speaker
be captured in history and
speaker
in the
speaker
denomination.
speaker
Well I think that was all that we had.
speaker
Is there anything else you want to add?
speaker
I don't know. Is there anything you feel is missing?
speaker
You know one question I was just
speaker
wondering myself do you find
speaker
yourself in a position where you're
speaker
kind of mentoring the next
speaker
generation?
speaker
I don't. Well
speaker
which next generation. I
speaker
feel that like the experience of
speaker
theological education right
speaker
now is vastly different than what I
speaker
went through. I finished in 96.
speaker
This is 2019 now. The way
speaker
that we talk about
speaker
inclusion and exclusion
speaker
in the structure and theology
speaker
of the church is far more advanced
speaker
than what I got when I was at
speaker
Princeton Seminary.
speaker
And so I feel like there's a
speaker
generation of seminarians
speaker
and people who are feeling called to
speaker
ministry, who are talking about
speaker
the church's history of repression
speaker
in a way that I didn't get
speaker
when I was there. I mean, maybe
speaker
glimpses of it, but now whole scale.
speaker
It feels like we're in a different
speaker
place.
speaker
One experience I did have recently
speaker
talking about the next generation is
speaker
that on National Coming Out Day
speaker
I was invited to be
speaker
on a panel at a public
speaker
school in Brooklyn.
speaker
There were four of us
speaker
and I was the only
speaker
clergy or church identified person
speaker
on the panel.
speaker
And to be able to
speaker
say to these
speaker
middle school and high schoolers
speaker
that I represent a church
speaker
or denomination, but also a God
speaker
who, regardless of what society
speaker
says, loves you, feels like
speaker
that's that's a powerful statement.
speaker
That loves you as
speaker
you are and your uniqueness
speaker
and your uncertainties and doubts
speaker
right now and in the way that you're
speaker
forming yourself that
speaker
God is with you and any religious
speaker
words of hate
speaker
or violence against you
speaker
either your identity or your
speaker
body that is not God's
speaker
grace. That's not how God views
speaker
you.
speaker
And had I been
speaker
13 and heard that
speaker
I think it may have shifted
speaker
my perspective at that point
speaker
of
speaker
those years of self-loathing
speaker
that I sat with
speaker
and those points of self-loathing
speaker
that still come back today.
speaker
It just, you know, those messages of
speaker
not being good enough or
speaker
not feeling safe
speaker
as an as an out man.
speaker
I
speaker
should also talk about my husband.
speaker
I hadn't thought about that.
speaker
So I got married in
speaker
May of this year, May 25th.
speaker
My husband Jason and I got married
speaker
at Riverside.
speaker
We met.
speaker
I moved to New York in
speaker
February of 2016 and he and I met
speaker
in November 2016.
speaker
So we just had the third anniversary
speaker
of our first date.
speaker
Just last week.
speaker
And
speaker
it's great.
speaker
I can.
speaker
I feel so blessed by
speaker
my life.
speaker
It hasn't been necessarily easy, but
speaker
I feel like God has supported me
speaker
through so many
speaker
difficult and hurtful
speaker
experiences
speaker
and the joy
speaker
of having a partner
speaker
who stands with me,
speaker
who affirms me in a ministry, who
speaker
speaks God's grace
speaker
and challenge to me
speaker
sometimes when I don't want to hear
speaker
it.
speaker
Also, I stood for co-moderator
speaker
and Jason was significant in that.
speaker
I
speaker
got a call whenever that was.
speaker
I think that October before
speaker
the last G.A.,
speaker
my friend Eliana Maxim with whom I
speaker
stood, called and said that she'd been
speaker
in this process of
speaker
being approached, being encouraged
speaker
to stand, her
speaker
process of saying, no, I don't want
speaker
to do this.
speaker
But through her own personal
speaker
discernment, felt like she did feel
speaker
called to stand.
speaker
And that
speaker
in her discernment, she felt like I
speaker
was supposed to stand with her.
speaker
And as I remember, it was one
speaker
morning I was on the way to church
speaker
and
speaker
it was very thoughtful.
speaker
And oh, that's really great that you
speaker
thought of me and really humbled.
speaker
And I was like oh I'll pray about this, knowing good and well that I
speaker
really did not mean that.
speaker
I was like, yeah, I'll pray about
speaker
that. Eliana. Yeah, I'm going to.
speaker
Because
speaker
I never saw myself standing
speaker
for co-moderator. I didn't feel like
speaker
I necessarily had the skills to do
speaker
it. I didn't feel like
speaker
it was something that I wanted to
speaker
do.
speaker
And
speaker
yeah, like it just didn't fit in my
speaker
life, period.
speaker
And then I went to a community
speaker
organizing training that was
speaker
sponsored by NEXT Church.
speaker
I'm on the National Strategy Team
speaker
for NEXT Church and
speaker
I was at the community
speaker
organizing training for the next
speaker
week.
speaker
So that Monday, so say I talked to Eliana on Thursday, that
speaker
Monday was training in Baltimore
speaker
and said, I saw the two
speaker
co-moderators so Denise Anderson
speaker
and Jan Edmondson were both
speaker
there. And I ran into Jan
speaker
that morning and she's like, "Hey,
speaker
I'm praying for you." I thought that
speaker
is so awesome. The co-moderators of
speaker
the denomination are praying for me.
speaker
She's like, "Yeah, I talked to
speaker
Eliana." I was like, oh,
speaker
gosh, that thing.
speaker
I wasn't.
speaker
Oh, so other people are praying
speaker
about this? Dang it,
speaker
other people know about this.
speaker
I thought this was just between me
speaker
and Eliana.
speaker
And
speaker
now so she said that she was praying
speaker
about it. And so I was like, oh,
speaker
well, if other people are praying,
speaker
then I actually have to do this
speaker
and went through my own time of
speaker
prayer. And like I said,
speaker
oh, my God, this is great
speaker
opportunity, but I really don't feel
speaker
called to it. I have enough stuff
speaker
going on in my church and life and
speaker
at that point, I don't know if
speaker
we were engaged yet.
speaker
I can't recall where we were.
speaker
Yeah, no, we were engaged
speaker
and
speaker
it just didn't fit in my life.
speaker
And so I was
speaker
I talked at length to Eliana and I
speaker
was like well, no,
speaker
and she's like, you need to pray
speaker
more.
speaker
And then I
speaker
talked I was meeting with a coach
speaker
at that point who's also clergy and
speaker
member in this Presbytery.
speaker
And we were walking just not
speaker
too far away from here in Riverside
speaker
Park. And she said, "So what
speaker
do you hear?"
speaker
I was like, well, I don't want to do
speaker
it. She's like, "What do you hear?"
speaker
I was like I don't wanna do it. She's
speaker
like, "Well that's not are you
speaker
called to it or not?"
speaker
And so I went
speaker
back and I think
speaker
it was that night I went home and
speaker
was talking to Jason
speaker
about it.
speaker
And
speaker
Jason's Quaker and so call
speaker
language isn't something that he
speaker
often uses.
speaker
But I was
speaker
telling him of my struggle and I'm
speaker
not sure about it and he's like,
speaker
"Well, your called to do this."
speaker
And I was like, "You don't know me!"
speaker
And that was. Yeah.
speaker
And
speaker
and I did I felt that like
speaker
how dare you say that, you don't
speaker
use my language against me.
speaker
But there was something about him
speaker
standing with me and
speaker
saying that I will support
speaker
you through this and that God is
speaker
going to support you through this.
speaker
It was
speaker
sort of like the final
speaker
the final sort of
speaker
straw.
speaker
It's like the straw that broke the
speaker
camel's back in the sense that
speaker
this man, who I know loves
speaker
me and I love him, feels that I
speaker
do have the gifts to do it and
speaker
and maybe in there are ways that I
speaker
don't, that I
speaker
have a need,
speaker
but that God would supply that need.
speaker
And so he was he's been a
speaker
great partner in me
speaker
growing and working through my
speaker
insecurities, my doubts and
speaker
ministry.
speaker
And so I'm really grateful for Jason
speaker
McGill, my husband.
speaker
Well, since you did mention it, I
speaker
will bring it up. The NEXT Church
speaker
Leadership Team. Can you talk a little
speaker
bit more about what that is and what
speaker
your role is?
speaker
Yeah. So I've been involved with
speaker
NEXT church for about
speaker
four years now.
speaker
I think I've already completed one
speaker
term on our strategy team and now
speaker
into another.
speaker
And also so it's around this time
speaker
that I was getting more involved
speaker
with the well, getting back involved
speaker
with the denomination, I went
speaker
to a NEXT church gathering
speaker
in Chicago.
speaker
And
speaker
I struggled there.
speaker
I'd been working in public health
speaker
and going to conferences.
speaker
I was doing HIV prevention
speaker
work and education
speaker
in communities most
speaker
disproportionately impacted by the
speaker
virus. So people
speaker
of color, African Americans,
speaker
Latinos, Native American
speaker
communities, transgender
speaker
communities, women and folks
speaker
living in and around poverty.
speaker
So that had been my professional
speaker
life for like four years
speaker
at that point and working
speaker
in HIV as a whole for like almost
speaker
a decade before that.
speaker
And then I went to the national
speaker
gathering for NEXT, and
speaker
it was my first entree back into
speaker
the denomination, the PC(USA)
speaker
at the national level. And
speaker
I think of a conference of five to
speaker
six hundred people that were
speaker
probably three
speaker
or four African American men,
speaker
clergy who were there
speaker
and there were more women, but I
speaker
mean, there were still I'd say less
speaker
than 20 of us total.
speaker
And it was quite
speaker
disappointing that
speaker
it felt like my church
speaker
was less
speaker
invested and interested in issues
speaker
of racial justice than
speaker
my secular job was.
speaker
And I expressed some of my
speaker
challenges around that and
speaker
Reverend Jessica Tate is the
speaker
director for NEXT church and
speaker
I was in D.C.
speaker
at some point and she reached
speaker
out to me and invited me
speaker
to coffee and to talk
speaker
about, you know,
speaker
what was my experience like it at
speaker
the gathering in Chicago and ways
speaker
that I would like to see NEXT church
speaker
change
speaker
as it relates to racial justice
speaker
and I think queer justice and
speaker
economic justice at the same time.
speaker
And yeah,
speaker
she tricked me.
speaker
She got me.
speaker
We had a great conversation and
speaker
I think in some way she agreed with
speaker
my analysis, my evaluation of
speaker
where the church was
speaker
and felt like
speaker
my critique was valid.
speaker
And that because of that,
speaker
there's something that I could offer
speaker
as we were to move forward and grow.
speaker
And so I think I
speaker
came on the strategy team, the
speaker
next gathering, which
speaker
was in Atlanta,
speaker
and I've been involved ever since.
speaker
One of the things I'm most proud of
speaker
was taking part in the Sarasota
speaker
statement, which
speaker
was a confessional statement that
speaker
was written by a group
speaker
of six or eight of us in Sarasota.
speaker
In the
speaker
January of 2017,
speaker
given the events of the
speaker
last national election
speaker
for the presidency, feels like
speaker
the church and the nation have
speaker
become very divided
speaker
where God wouldn't desire it, so the Sarasota
speaker
statement is I mean,
speaker
it's not a perfect statement,
speaker
but it came out of a time where
speaker
those of us who were there were
speaker
striving to add voice
speaker
to some of the pains and the
speaker
struggles that we're experiencing
speaker
around nationalism
speaker
and tribalism.
speaker
And the way that
speaker
the gospel has been used, the gospel
speaker
of Jesus Christ has been used to
speaker
exclude and demonize people
speaker
and to keep people oppressed.
speaker
I mean, like systematically,
speaker
structurally, the way that
speaker
racism was used
speaker
in the church and in society
speaker
as a whole. And to try to put words
speaker
to that so that our denomination
speaker
has
speaker
some talking points and a place to
speaker
struggle to read and study
speaker
and to figure out how do we move
speaker
forward. And so that's one of the
speaker
things that I'm really proud to
speaker
have been able to take part in through NEXT.
speaker
And we are
speaker
we're still struggling to do
speaker
the work of justice and to really
speaker
change our institutional structure
speaker
around oppression as a whole.
speaker
It's a lot of work.
speaker
And we
speaker
have hard times on a regular basis.
speaker
But I'm grateful for
speaker
my colleagues in ministry who are
speaker
willing to to listen
speaker
and the people who are willing to
speaker
speak their voices
speaker
and to struggle and to sit with
speaker
difficulty, because it does feel
speaker
like in this place we are
speaker
birthing a new experience of
speaker
the church.
speaker
The next experience of the church.
speaker
And
speaker
I do like I appreciate the
speaker
name NEXT church because
speaker
we never fully get there.
speaker
It's not NOW church, it's the
speaker
church we're growing into
speaker
and we're still being shaped by
speaker
God and the teachings of Jesus
speaker
every day.
speaker
So as I talk about not necessarily
speaker
like a mentor, but a person who's
speaker
been a dear friend to me since
speaker
I moved to New York and significant
speaker
in my life is Fred Davie,
speaker
who is an out
speaker
gay Presbyterian man,
speaker
African American Presbyterian
speaker
pastor, and he's
speaker
the reason I'm married
speaker
in large part.
speaker
Jason, my fiancee
speaker
or at that point was not.
speaker
Jason,
speaker
my husband, I'd written
speaker
him on OkCupid. This is really way too, we'll figure out if you need this
speaker
or not.
speaker
So Jason, I'd written
speaker
him on OkCupid
speaker
and he wrote me back, but I hadn't
speaker
gone for a couple of weeks.
speaker
And
speaker
during that time he stalked me
speaker
because he had my name that I'd
speaker
worked in HIV.
speaker
And, yeah I don't know. This is not even useful.
speaker
Yeah it is, keep going.
speaker
Is it, really?
speaker
We'll listen to you, yeah.
speaker
So he had my name that I worked in
speaker
HIV and had lived in
speaker
Seattle.
speaker
And he put those three pieces
speaker
together
speaker
in the Google machine.
speaker
And my bio at
speaker
Riverside Church came up at that
speaker
point.
speaker
And
speaker
he's like, that's not that guy.
speaker
But it was me.
speaker
And through those three
speaker
pieces was able to figure out, well,
speaker
he's friends with Fred Davie.
speaker
Fred was or is
speaker
the vice president at Union
speaker
Theological Seminary.
speaker
Out gay Presbyterian pastor,
speaker
African American.
speaker
And so Jason called
speaker
Fred and said, well, they've got to
speaker
know each other.
speaker
And Fred and I had just had lunch.
speaker
He'd been a friend to
speaker
me since I arrived in New York.
speaker
And
speaker
Jason called him, talked to him.
speaker
And Fred
speaker
gave me a call and said, hey,
speaker
there's this guy who
speaker
wants to talk to you.
speaker
And I was like no, that's
speaker
unappealing. Why would I do that?
speaker
Someone's stalking me.
speaker
No.
speaker
He was like, well, you wrote him.
speaker
And I was like I didn't write
speaker
anybody.
speaker
And he was like OkCupid?
speaker
And I was like, yeah,
speaker
there's this guy.
speaker
And so he's like, he's
speaker
a good guy. You should talk to him.
speaker
And I was like, well, because you
speaker
say so, Fred, I will
speaker
give him a call, but I will not be
speaker
nice to him. No, I didn't say that.
speaker
But then Jason and
speaker
I talked the next night and
speaker
then we had our first date the
speaker
following Sunday.
speaker
And yeah, we've been together ever
speaker
since. But Fred Davie has been
speaker
a significant part of my life.
speaker
And he performed our wedding
speaker
ceremony, he and Michael Livingston.
speaker
And so it was great to be able to
speaker
recognize him. And that I mean
speaker
Fred is doing tremendous work
speaker
at Union and sort of a
speaker
broader political system here in New
speaker
York, overseeing
speaker
the citizens review board with the
speaker
police department and
speaker
I'm grateful for him in the way
speaker
that his ministry
speaker
is not just in the congregational
speaker
context, but
speaker
he's just like another example of
speaker
the way queer people are serving the
speaker
church and maybe not always in in
speaker
the confines of a church,
speaker
but leading us for justice, too.
speaker
And so I'm grateful for Fred Davie.

In collections

Details

Title: Bertram Johnson oral history, 2019.
Description: Bertram Johnson became the first openly gay African American to be ordained as a pastor in the PC(USA) in 2014. He grew up Baptist, attended Mt. Baker Park Presbyterian Church (Seattle, Washington), and was ordained at Madrona Grace Presbyterian Church (Seattle, Washington) as a Teaching Elder in 2014.
Creator: Johnson, Bertram. (interviewee)
Wittrig, Elizabeth L. (interviewer)
Prescott, Sonia. (interviewer)
Date: 2019
November 12, 2019
Type of resource: moving image
Genre: oral histories
interviews
Form: born digital
video recordings
Extent: 1.39 GB (1 MP4 file)
Subject names: Madrona Grace Presbyterian Church (Seattle, Wash.)
Presbyterian Welcome (Organization)
Johnson, Bertram.
Topics: Homosexuality--Religious aspects--Presbyterian Church.
Ordination of gays.
Ordination of lesbians.
African American Presbyterians.
Geographic subjects: Seattle (Wash.)
North and Central America--United States--Washington--King--Seattle
Rights status: IN COPYRIGHT - NON-COMMERCIAL USE PERMITTED; http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/
Physical location: ARCHIVES 19-1125; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA
Related item: Pam Byers Collecting Initiative oral histories, 2019.--http://prestohost68.inmagic.com/Presto/content/Detail.aspx?ctID=Y2RiNWNk...
Identifier (local): 19-1125_Bertram_Johnson
PID (Persistent Identifier): islandora:281973

Pearl Digital Collections

You are here

Bertram Johnson oral history, 2019.

Primary tabs

Download

In collections

Bookmark

BookBags: