When we have the electric current.

This is Lawrence Bottoms interviewing Jim Costen in regards to the governing Black governing bodies in the Presbyterian Church. This is being done in Atlanta in my office at the Morningside Presbyterian Church on July 11. Nineteen ninety one. Again, I repeat this is Lawrence Bottoms doing the interviewing and Jim Costen who is being interviewed. Jim, tell me something about your background education, parentage were they in the Presbyterian Church.

No, they were not. I was born and raised in Omaha Nebraska. In 1931. I was raised early in life in the A.M.E. Church and at the age of five my mother upon the death of my Father, put me in the Catholic Church, where there was a good program with children and youth, and I was raised from the time of five, until I became interested in ministry at age 16, I was in the Catholic Church. And at the age of 16. I began. Exploring other options, and I became enamored by a friend of yours, Charles Tyler, oh, out in Omaha, Nebraska, and became Presbyterian. And through him, I went to college at Johnson C Smith in Charlotte, North Carolina, and stayed there to go to seminary. So I did both college and seminary at Johnson C Smith. After that went to a small congregation in Rocky Mount North Carolina. And stayed there for almost 10 years. And following the 10 years in Rocky Mount, I came to Atlanta in 1965 to be the organizing pastor for the Presbyterian Church of the Master on Martin Luther King, and stayed there during its organizational and building phase, and in 1969 left there to become the dean of Johnson C Smith Seminary, which had relocated from Charlotte to be a part of the Interdenominational Theological Center. And for 14 years, I was the dean of the seminary, and in 1983 I became president of the Interdenominational Theological Center, a consortium of six denominations operating under a single program of theological education. I'm in that position now.

What Presbyteries have you served in?

I have served in, I guess, now three Presbyteries. I started off, including my home Presbyterian, I would say four Presbyteries. Omaha Presbytery at that time now is the Missouri River Presbytery. And then following my seminary training, I went to Cape Fear Presbytery in Rocky Mount, and then I came to Atlanta and became a member of the Knox Hodge Presbytery, which was one of the separate, racially distinctive Presbyteries prior to reunion. And in 1962, I became part of the and geographically inclusive Georgia Presbytery and served as a member of the Georgia Presbytery until reunion occurred in 1983, whereupon I became a member of the Cherokee Presbyterian, so I guess I served in five presbyteries.

All right now the tell me about the Black experience and each one of the Black Presbyteries you have served in retort in regards to their government.

When I graduated from seminary in 1956. And went to Cape Fear Presbytery, which was a part of the Catawba presbytery, Catawba synod of the Old Presbyterian Church USA, one of the thing that hit me hardest and that I remember most is the fact that I was enamored, completely enamored by the quality of the older ministers who were serving. In that Presbytery, you had men like J. H. Hayes Wood over in Lumberton, North Carolina. You had men like Dr. Gray in Fayetteville, North Carolina, and you had McFadden H. L. McFadden in Lewisburg, North Carolina, an older man. But they were thoroughly grounded in Presbyterian polity, thoroughly grounded in Presbyterian history. Just being in their midst caused me to learn a great deal about the Presbyterian Church. In fact, I think my inspiration for wanting to go as far as I could in the church came as a result of these men. I guess another impression equally profound but negative for me, was the fact that these men were just complete traditionalists and they had a great deal of knowledge. But the ministries of their churches were just the same old thing, and they went about their work in that routine manner. And as a result, the church has never really blossomed, except for the churches in the area around Lumberton. Those churches do fairly well.

What made the difference?

I think it's because they were essentially rural and the rural connection of the church God gave the people a call to be together. And then you had a number of educational institutions that had been involved there Red Stone Academy, for example. And the people had coalesced around these institutions historically, and I believe that accounted for much of their growth and development.

I hear you saying that you had strong men as individuals, but you had weak structures as governing bodies.

I would say that I would say that. And also, you have sparse geographical areas. And there was never a kind of a sense of solidity. They were divided by geography.

You were talking about the men who were former individual transcending in the structure in which to operate it were restructuring.

Yes, sir.

But as individuals they had strong influence on the lives of people?

Yes, sir.

You had then a kind of strong individual conversion living with weak structural conversion and living.

Yes. Yes. And. It's sort of amazing that anything happened, but structurally it really was quite coincidental in most instances, were it not for the fact that the segregated nature of the structure in that whole in this whole southeastern region gave these black judicatories governing bodies courts access to the synod and to the General Assembly were not for that fact. There would not have been a great deal of. Infusion into the life of the general assembly. But because of that, the church was mandated really to include these judiciatories, and as a result, a lot rubbed off that caused the structures to work in spite of themselves.

What contributions do you see people making in this kind of a situation what are the outstanding contributions.

One of the outstanding contributions that I see if I look back over my career and as I look back over the events of that time. I think that it produced more. Understanding and more involvment mentally In the life of being Presbyterian and being reformed. I think that the. The men who pastored these churches, the strong. Ministers, albeit they were older persons, and I believe that the church sessions were more steeped in Presbyterianism and reformed theology, even though they didn't know what to call it. But I believe they were more steeped in that.

But what did it do for the spiritual?

Spiritually, I would say, I don't think the structure necessarily did that, but spiritually, I think the kind of difference and the church reinforced greater spiritual values. But the it was easier to be spiritually motivated during that period than yesterday, and I believe the church probably reinforced spiritual values at a higher level than we see prevalent today. What are some of those strong memories that you have

over those Presbyterian?

I would say that the Presbyterian said I made it to a that time. A greater emphasis to you name the Presbyterian that you take, I would say that Cape Fear Presbyterian, for example. And I'll take care of Presbyterian. It put a great deal of emphasis on youth ministry. That's a very definite. Recollection, I would say that. Cape Fear Presbyterian also

put a great deal of emphasis on evangelism,

while it never was a thriving, growing situation. But I believe that the emphasis here cause greater involvement. Spiritual involvement of the individual of the Presbyterian never did well to large numbers, nor did churches in any, with very few exceptions. Several being the church that John Dungy pastored over in Henderson, North Carolina, the church in Fairfield, where great pastors and Lumberton, these churches grew quite well, and one night pastor named Rocky Mount. But for the most part, they were smaller churches. But evangelism. The Presbyterian continually emphasizes that where where did they get their input for evangelism? I would say that

it was recognizing the fact that

this was basically the whole of being a Christian, this basic undergirding point of being a Christian is evangelism telling doing me the word evangelical. Good news. And then on a part beyond that, after you have gotten that essential ingredient, I believe most of the men there have the feeling that telling and doing being the good news cause you to then go into the Ministry of Service to others. So I would say that basically and essentially the biblical understanding of the root of evangelism was that so you're saying that the man is an individual had a deep spiritual life through young people who moved from

there and served in other structures? Yes, sir. Well, what about my charge for church? Not charged, Presbyterian.

As you know, it was a combination of two Presbyterian, the old Knox Presbyterian and the Presbyterian Knox being in Georgia, both Black Church in Georgia and Hodge being both churches primarily in Florida and the two Presbyterian came together quite weak. Quite diverse and geography. However, if two, I think.

Know how dark

clouds, however, was in my opinion, I came in 65 and

served in the Presbyterian oh, until

I guess about 80. Seventy two, when the reorganization occurred

and it became Georgia Presbyterian.

It was I would say I would conceive it to be a weak system. There were some individuals who were strong and there were some things that occurred that were strong. But my overall assessment of knocked out Presbyterian was that it was a fairly weak Presbyterian. Tell me about. You talked about different targets, so

what informed the conversation had on

the perpetrators or what was the purpose

of the. Not hard. I mean, we've got a problem.

You had a comfortable structure that crossed several Presbyterian.

You had the car bomb. Originally, you had been told by Senate.

It was comprised of four Presbyterian starting in the north, you had southern Virginia Presbyterian, which included all of the area south of Washington, D.C., including those black churches in Washington, D.C.. You had yakking Presbyterian, which included those churches primarily in the northernmost part of the Piedmont area of North Carolina. You had Cape Fear Presbyterian, which was the coastal plain section of North Carolina darting all the way through over to the Virginia. And then you had Tara Presbyterian, which was the largest, most influential and probably the flagship of at least they'd like to think

that the black sheep of the Senate,

these four Presbyterian came into existence in the latter part of the 16th 1860s. So when the Torba Presbyterian was established. And at that time, and dip down into South Carolina and picked up churches as far south and as Far East as Charleston and went back up around the Charlotte area. Over the years, this Senate became for the church, one of its leading, in my opinion, opportunities for black clergy and lay lay person and church to have their day in the whole life

or the church. They sent their commissioner to the General Assembly that sent their commissioners to the Senate,

and they took part in the total life of the church. The thing that I believe

distinguished control of the Senate.

Was not all the Catawba, but Atlantic City, which embraced South

Carolina and Georgia and Florida was what was called a

workers conference. The workers conference was a black General Assembly. All of the boards and agencies and all of the emphases of the Presbyterian Church. Were brought together and people came from

near and far hundreds of black Presbyterian come

primarily to Charlotte at Johnson C Smith University to take part in these educational experiences. And they would spend three four, five six days on the campus there. And literally it was a mini Johnson who was a stimulating horse power and this. In this workers conference, you know, you have people like Jesse Barber. You have people like J.B. McCloy, who later became the executive over the unit

among colored people. You had

Abraham Kraft's. Author George O. I would say these would be some of your major news, one man who had a individual background undergirding spiritual strength, trying to strengthen structure and our people and people and people. The the what contributions do you think from the geographic church, have we taken into the the new Presbyterian? I would say. A greater understanding from a black perspective. What being a Presbyterian is? I don't, but I don't see many. Young black Presbyterian today, knowing being about what it means to be Presbyterian, I believe there was a greater heritage brought from those bodies into the new United Church than that would have otherwise been the case. I think that you will see a greater appreciation for the heritage. Black people in general, black Presbyterian, and he said being involved that I don't believe what. Then we're going to have we're going to have we know by coming into the geographical Presbyterian.

Having been a member of the reunion committee.

I am not very proud to say, but I'm proud to say. But I think we have lost.

Much of the. History.

That we have in abundance and should be sharing. I think we have lost much of the inclusivity. I don't believe the new structures have tried hard enough to be inclusive.

The racial ethnic. Constituencies.

I think we have lost greater participation at the.

Senate level and General Assembly level. We have

lost greater participation

at the committee level. I'm amazed and appalled at how many committees call it.

They call it together

today and they meet and there's not a single black face in the world. Does that mean that the Committee on

Representation is not really a job?

I think that the Committee on Representation and in too many instances is just a rubber stamp, and I say that having been one of the persons who helped design. The near future, but I don't think that it has done

its job well, and that is possibly because. Our church and maybe have not black churches have not prepared a country of persons who can step in and can demand to be included.

I think that it might be the result of the.

Black clergy not helping great persons within their midst to to understand that in many instances, if they don't take a role in the work of a Presbyterian its committees, there are no other persons who can do that. So I think there are a variety of reasons why it's the case, but I don't think the community to representation has done much or given any attention to correcting this regard. Well, I cannot say with any certainty, but my observation is that I don't see. I've not seen anything that impressed me

in terms of systemic change.

Way the committee functions or its achievements, what are some of the memories that you have that are strong, that have been helpful and we need to try to keep alive in this new relationship? One that I think

is basic to being Presbyterian, and that is

the meaning of

being a Presbyterian. I think that

this was one of the. Spain black Presbyterian in the past they were. Very much together

as a group and in the functioning of the

Presbyterian, the other governing bodies, they just develop a common

understanding of being part of a group.

And as a result of that, for example,

I really look back at my seminary training. And the people who impressed me a great deal, people like

Arthur George, who have been against the system at seminary. You know, I was always take just completely in all by his knowledge of people, places and events in the Presbyterian Church. And I sought to emulate him in that regard. And as a result, I I have this kind of marriage of people things. I think that was fairly typical. And I believe that it's one of the memories that I have with I would like to see carried over, and I'm trying to inculcate that

into the life of the students that I come in touch with now at Johnson C Smith at the ITC. But that's definitely one of these from. Memories that I had, I would say another memory and impression

was the involvement of black people in organizations like the United Presbyterian MIAD

and the. Presbyterian women's organization, these were strong leadership building organizations, and as I look around today.

I feel that they are fledgling. I feel that they are roping in the local church and certainly there are looking into the Presbyterian Senate.

I think that the organizations that thing, especially the women's organization,

is doing all right as a whole, but it does not have a very healthy, significant involvement with the black women in that president. Do you have any records? Two minutes?

And I don't think that should be kept by the Historical Foundation. Well, I have

mixed feelings on. For the last 25

years, I have found what I call a rat. And I have not gone to

speak or to

do anything at any point. Presbyterian Church that I

did not bring back history. Of a church

or request information about significant people, and I have collected that and have chosen for

that to be

deposited at the. Robert L. Woodruff, Library of the Atlanta University Center.

However, last year I sent 23 boxes of material to the Presbyterian Historical

Society in Philadelphia for them too. What do you call it?

Migrant farm worker through microfilm and to include in their records and send back the originals to the woodwork. My fear, I would say that the materials I have collected would probably be one of the most expensive individual collections in the. Sure, where they microphone and said they were and where we we we see the three. Actual documents, the Historical Society in Philadelphia does have the microcap they have, do you have any other material that could be like

a big and growing amount that has been collected since that time? Yes. What else would you

like to share? It might be good for us in our new situation. In order to strengthen the government in power.

Lecture. One of the things that I'd

like to share

is something that I'm engaged in and that is any indication of black leadership. I am a believer that. Very few things happen for war.