Pearl Rugless O'Meally and Mary Ludlow Bookout oral history, 2019.

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    I love you but just want start
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    talking about what it was like to be
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    on my pastor nominating committee
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    that called Janie.
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    Okay, let's start right at the beginning in Virginia's
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    apartment.
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    Yes. And Virginia
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    was very active
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    in the church. Yeah, and
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    she was
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    someone
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    of interest that you could.
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    You'll want to listen to.
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    So when they appointed us, appointed
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    me for
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    the nomination committee which was
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    one of the first I said "Oh my
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    God!" I was so overwhelmed
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    and doing so, then we
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    gathered to the apartment.
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    And we met each other and that's
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    where I met Mary.
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    And from there
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    we continue to.
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    You go now Mary.
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    Okay, you know how the process
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    worked through PNC, endless.
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    And we read dossier after
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    dossier and
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    we were asking for somebody to do
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    a particular combination of jobs
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    and when we saw Janie's dossier we
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    thought she's wonderful.
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    This is, as
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    far as qualifications as far as
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    experience as far as the kinds of
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    particular things she's worked on.
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    This is the best one we've seen so
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    far.
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    We also recognized
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    that she was an out lesbian
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    and that this was wasn't a problem.
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    We kind of looked at each other and
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    said.
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    Not really.
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    We had.
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    Well Chuck, trying to think of
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    anybody else but we had at least one
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    out gay guy on the team.
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    This wasn't a problem.
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    What was a little bit of a problem
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    was that she lived in California.
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    But the reason she'd
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    sent her resume again
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    was because Carol
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    Bonner who was a childhood
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    friend of hers and they'd been
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    at family summer cottages
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    on Lake Erie Beach not far from when
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    I where I went to a Lake Erie summer
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    cottage with my aunt and uncle.
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    We learned to swim in the same
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    fairly polluted Lake Erie water.
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    Anyway they
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    were still friends and still
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    corresponded she said, "Well Janie
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    is going to be visiting her family
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    up at the lake.
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    They still have a cottage there.
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    That's not far.
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    That's like a two hour drive.
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    Can we time an interview to when
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    she's visiting?"
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    And this is unimportant but it
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    says something about how
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    informal everything was right away.
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    She came and
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    it was a very hot August day and
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    she was feeling a little flustered
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    not because of the interview but
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    because that morning before
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    she left her father had fallen off a
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    ladder.
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    And well he turned out not to be
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    hurt and it meant rushing around and
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    doing x rays and stuff and I'm still
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    supposed to be there.
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    She was kind of in that mood.
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    But we talked and
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    she was great.
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    She had experience with all of these
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    things.
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    She was energetic
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    she was outgoing.
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    She was interested in working here.
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    She was not put off by Rochester
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    winters.
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    She had grown up in Pittsburgh
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    and kind of understood that the
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    Northeast
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    winter is the first of
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    November till the end of April.
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    But other seasons get packed in
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    around the edges.
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    And we were really excited.
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    Go ahead.
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    Your turn.
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    So when.
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    When we reached that part, really
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    and truly it was
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    a lesson learned by
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    me because I did not know
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    nothing about gay or lesbian
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    people. I did not know.
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    That was.
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    And when they compare it
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    the comparison was like America
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    stuff did to America
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    in black and white.
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    So when I when I gave
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    it to see that.
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    I said but that's the same
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    pattern
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    for the Black
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    under White Americans
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    and is the same way they're treating
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    people lesbian or
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    gay.
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    And I keep wondering that.
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    That's one of the biggest why I had
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    because I couldn't I couldn't
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    adjust myself to ignoring that
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    people have reached out beyond
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    their limit to get in
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    other people's lives to tell
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    them what to do. And that was that
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    was very puzzling
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    for me.
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    The more we go.
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    And the more we read and the more we
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    talk with her.
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    If I'd know they are just humans
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    like everyone else
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    and people should respect
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    people's privacy.
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    But so far
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    they didn't they just jab and jab
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    and jab. Well,
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    Janie.
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    She had a stamina that
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    she just hold on and that
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    didn't matter to her.
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    And that helps me
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    because I come from the Island
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    and I come into this strange world
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    and in a two
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    world and you don't know which
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    side to take.
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    So you have to treat everyone
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    according to who they
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    are.
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    And I start respecting everybody
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    for the same.
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    Who they are.
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    Then Janie and I become good
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    friends.
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    The pattern was almost the same
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    and that that's when I get so
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    interested in what
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    she was doing and not half
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    being whom they say she
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    was.
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    But the things how she did it
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    with faith.
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    Love, energy
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    and this big smile.
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    She'd never you never see her
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    frown.
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    I never see her frown. Do you Mary?
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    No.
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    And you're right about, God I'm
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    going to quote that old Presbyterian
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    thing.
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    Energy, imagination, intelligence
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    and love, she had it, has
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    it.
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    And anyway
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    we finished that interview and I
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    remember going out to the car and
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    sort of shivering this could be
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    hard. But if we're picking the
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    person who has the best
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    qualifications and we'd interviewed
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    five or six people at that point,
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    wow she has the best qualifications.
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    That's what we should be doing.
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    And she says that she drove
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    back to her parents in the college
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    thinking.
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    It won't go any farther than this.
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    But they interviewed me
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    and they were only interested
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    in my job experience and what
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    I'd bring to this job.
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    They didn't talk about
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    anything else.
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    They were just
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    straightforwardly not having the
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    lesbian thing be at all part of
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    it.
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    I'm really grateful for that.
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    I'm grateful for her telling us that
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    because that's what we wanted to do.
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    We were not saying
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    well check off.
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    Let's see we need
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    a person over 55, a person of color,
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    women. Okay.
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    That checks a couple of boxes.
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    It was it was just
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    good. But then we needed to move
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    on to the next steps in the process.
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    And we talked it over among
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    ourselves.
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    Yeah.
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    And
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    we all liked her
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    and we all thought that she was
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    without question extremely well
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    qualified would do a great job
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    but there was there was
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    anxiety more anxiety for some people
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    than others.
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    And at the beginning we were
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    divided.
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    We kept saying.
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    We're still going to need to
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    recognize these
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    really good qualifications when
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    those of us who who wanted to were
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    saying we're not ready to give up on
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    this.
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    And so we've talked.
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    We began meeting every week, right?
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    Every week.
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    Then we kept meeting more than once
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    a week. Then we kept meeting so we
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    were having more meals
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    together than we did with our
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    families.
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    And one little funny thing that
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    happened that we both remembered
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    when we called each other a couple
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    of days ago to arrange this
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    was
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    we lived scattered all over the
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    county.
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    Two thirds of us were still working
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    going home and coming back
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    was hard.
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    And meeting in people's houses was
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    hard because everything
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    had to be confidential.
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    We met at Ginny's a whole lot
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    because she lived alone.
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    And she was not going to make
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    anybody forced to stay in the
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    bedroom all evening while we talked
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    because this was very confidential.
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    We met out at John Hardy's once he
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    had two little kids at the after.
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    At the end of the afternoon it was a
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    lovely place and a great place for
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    an interview, nice fireplace.
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    His wife came in and she said
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    "We're not doing it here again.
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    Do you realize I have trumped around
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    in the snow with little Christopher
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    with the baby on my back for three
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    hours because you need so
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    much privacy. Go someplace else."
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    But we we did know that we needed
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    to keep it confidential
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    until we were rock solid sure.
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    And so we would meet
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    here upstairs and two of
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    the guys made a specialty
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    of looking for all the pizza coupons
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    in the paper.
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    So we were not worried about
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    good pizza just cheap pizza
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    which we ate till
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    we wondered whether we could ever
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    face it again.
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    And we talked and thought and
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    got down to just a couple of
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    holdouts and
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    then a part of me wasn't
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    surprised.
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    I was in a little odd position in
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    this my husband
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    to whom I was still married at that
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    point I had found
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    out few years before it was gay
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    and we were struggling with
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    what did we do.
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    Because the fact that you find
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    this out means that many parts
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    of the marriage aren't working but
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    it doesn't mean that you don't care
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    a great deal about each other.
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    And I realized
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    Janie had been through the same
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    thing. And Roger was not out at
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    work because
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    he was a professor
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    at the community college.
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    But teachers weren't out the member
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    of our committee who was a teacher
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    wasn't out.
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    It was it wasn't out
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    and taught deliberately in a town
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    that's 30 miles away so that his
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    private life and his school life
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    were completely separate worlds.
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    It didn't surprise me very much that
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    the person that was
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    the last holdout.
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    And so I went out to dinner with her
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    and after we talked long enough
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    I found out that her son was gay and
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    that she was struggling with it so
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    hard because
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    at that point
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    as you said there was so much
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    prejudice. It was such a struggle.
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    And so
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    we worked and worked and worked
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    to talk
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    it out.
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    Yeah in the same day I remember we
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    were still,
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    we had so many candidates.
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    Oh we still had like 50.
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    We saw
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    about four or five of them.
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    At least.
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    At least before we picked Janie.
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    And did some phone interviews too.
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    And so we had we had comparisons.
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    We just didn't see her and say
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    yes that we had we had
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    other interviews that we have went
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    to New York.
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    When, did I go to?
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    I didn't go to Chicago.
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    But I went to different places
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    to meet those people and we have
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    that comparison.
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    That
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    before we say yes to Janie
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    we just didn't see our answer come.
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    We interview others
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    and then we were
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    requested that, we were
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    being. We ask her.
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    It was so
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    it was so knowledgeable.
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    You know that
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    she show you that she was a people's
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    person.
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    She wasn't just for
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    the gay and lesbian group,
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    she's for everybody
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    because I remember I ask her
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    if before we even
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    before we chose her.
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    I ask her,
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    "So Janie if the time
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    has come if the time came
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    and we chose you to be our minister,
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    how would you treat
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    the congregation and
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    even in your preaching would you
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    just preach for
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    gay and lesbian?" She said "No
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    we pay for the people
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    and not only for the people
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    in the church but for the
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    community." And that sort of
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    take a hold in me.
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    You know she was.
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    She was reaching beyond.
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    And when she preached a sermon
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    she might put two, one or two
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    lines in there about
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    gay lesbian and transgender.
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    But she'd never lay in it, just like
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    you
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    come up today and you said the food
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    bag needs something.
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    That's how she.
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    She mix it in and just
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    keep going until she reach
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    for everyone in the community and
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    in the church.
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    And I respect her for that.
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    I respect
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    her highly.
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    She was she was a person's
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    preacher. Yeah.
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    She
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    was a person's preacher.
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    She'd done her.
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    Whatever the right word. I want to
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    say student preaching like student
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    teaching in Pittsburgh
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    at a mostly African American
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    congregation.
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    And I remember loving it when she
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    said that when she went there that
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    the minister who was supervising
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    who said "Honey we're going to teach
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    you to preach from the neck down."
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    And she tells
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    you to walk around
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    and really reach into the
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    congregation but as you're talking
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    about reaching to everybody.
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    I also realized instantly and
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    this was important to me that
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    she was going to be able
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    to connect with people who were
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    being carefully invisible at that
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    point.
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    I was struggling.
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    Roger and I were struggling with
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    what to do.
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    Struggling worse because
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    and at this point
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    anything is quotable because
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    people have died.
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    Yeah. People have.
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    People have died. Yeah. But we had a
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    we had a meeting one evening.
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    This is the story I told you on the
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    phone. Yeah it's pretty good.
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    We had a PNC meeting at Virginia's
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    house which was a townhouse
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    downtown and
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    great place because as we said we
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    had privacy but it also was a very
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    comfortable place to meet.
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    This was the weekend that Janie was
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    having this sort of big full
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    weekend interview thing that you do
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    when you're getting to that major
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    final interview.
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    So she had that
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    interview that evening with us with
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    dinner and then something on
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    Saturday morning and Saturday
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    afternoon somebody was going to give
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    her the drive around town
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    to see places she might live
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    and look at neighborhoods or
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    anything else she wanted.
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    And then Monday morning she was
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    going, or Sunday morning she was
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    going to preach. So she had a very
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    full schedule
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    and we had
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    a room for her at the Strathallan Hotel
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    which
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    is a very nice.
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    What do
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    I want to say?
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    Tt's a very sort of low key elegant
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    dignified hotel
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    on East Avenue not
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    near any other hotels,
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    over kind of near the Science Museum
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    and the Art Gallery and that sort of
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    thing.
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    Okay.
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    As the meeting broke up.
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    I want badly to talk to her.
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    I had hardly anybody that I could
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    talk to about the HIV thing it was
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    the point where it was still really
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    really bad.
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    It was like having leprosy.
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    And
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    I had still teenagers and Roger had
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    been given five years to live it was
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    pretty rugged.
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    He lived a lot longer.
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    New drugs came in.
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    But we were divorced amiably
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    later. Lots of good things happened.
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    But she had already said
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    that she and Jim had managed to
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    have a
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    pretty
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    amiable and what I'd call a good
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    divorce that let them continue to
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    support each other recognizing the
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    differences in sexuality. That was
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    what I was hoping for.
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    And so I said "Could you stay just a
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    little bit after with me to talk?"
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    And we did.
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    And she was wonderful
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    just having somebody to talk to was
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    such a relief.
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    I said I can drive you back to the
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    hotel that's easy.
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    Still talking intently
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    probably at one o'clock in the
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    morning on a very snowy night,
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    the snowy night matters.
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    I drove her back pulled
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    up into the loop and watched her go
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    inside. I would want to be sure
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    she was all safe inside
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    and went up to
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    the desk was closed but where there
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    were clearly desk kind of things.
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    All right she's all safely inside.
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    But things are fine.
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    I'll go home.
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    And I did.
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    So I didn't find out what happened
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    till the next morning.
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    Oh my God.
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    Anybody who could handle this with a
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    sense of humor deserves everything.
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    It wasn't the hotel.
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    It was an apartment building that
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    looked a whole lot like it.
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    She didn't know the street number
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    of the hotel.
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    Used to San Francisco which
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    at least is a little more alive at
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    night and has more payphones.
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    And this is a totally not alive at
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    night street.
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    It has museums and churches.
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    And dignified things like the
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    Association of what's it and what's
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    it but nothing
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    commercial.
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    The only commercial thing really is
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    this is this one hotel.
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    She didn't know which direction to
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    go on the street that would get her
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    to the hotel.
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    She started unfortunately in the
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    wrong direction.
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    There was nothing.
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    She said I'll get to a payphone.
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    There aren't any pay phones on that
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    street. There's nothing
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    open at all.
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    Finally she saw a light.
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    It turned out to be the Convent
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    of the Sisters of the Sacred Heart,
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    who have a school near there.
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    She banged pretty hard.
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    It was cold it was late she was
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    really stuck she was feeling sort of
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    if this is a test of my resilience.
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    Boy they've given me a good one.
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    It wasn't, it was a mistake.
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    But anyway finally one of the
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    sisters came down in her bathrobe,
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    let her in, saying
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    very sweetly when Janie explained
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    what she was doing and who she was.
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    Well we're having a really
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    ecumenical night and
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    got a phone book, found the address,
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    turned her around in the right
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    direction, told her which side of
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    the street it was and what to look
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    for.
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    And she probably still had a good 20
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    minute walk because she walked quite
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    a way in the wrong direction.
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    But she got in and the next morning
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    told us the story but just
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    laughed about it didn't complain
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    and now 20 odd
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    years later
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    if I see her or to talk to her.
  • speaker
    All we have to do is say the
  • speaker
    "Strathallan Hotel" and both of us
  • speaker
    just crack up because
  • speaker
    now that she was warm and dry
  • speaker
    it was pretty funny but not
  • speaker
    the last thing in the world we would
  • speaker
    have wanted to do to somebody the
  • speaker
    night before a very tiring day of
  • speaker
    interviews.
  • speaker
    So that's it's
  • speaker
    a little adventure of mine but it
  • speaker
    also says something about the person
  • speaker
    that she is and was.
  • speaker
    Yeah it really does.
  • speaker
    So then when you did decide
  • speaker
    to call Janie.
  • speaker
    Were you prepared for
  • speaker
    what came after that?
  • speaker
    Were you expecting it to be
  • speaker
    controversial?
  • speaker
    Not the way it was.
  • speaker
    Yeah and we thought.
  • speaker
    We mentioned
  • speaker
    that.
  • speaker
    How what you have to
  • speaker
    wait to see how, l
  • speaker
    said this one is going to be
  • speaker
    unhappy that one going to be
  • speaker
    unhappy.
  • speaker
    That's only a guess work.
  • speaker
    So you have to wait and see.
  • speaker
    And that was controversial.
  • speaker
    I bet when she started
  • speaker
    what I think
  • speaker
    a lot of people had gotten
  • speaker
    a lot out of
  • speaker
    her being here because
  • speaker
    I know they
  • speaker
    there's so many people who
  • speaker
    I know that I didn't know
  • speaker
    who they were.
  • speaker
    They came out and said who they
  • speaker
    were.
  • speaker
    And if you have to talk with them
  • speaker
    you come like there's a burden
  • speaker
    lift off their shoulder and
  • speaker
    they just feel happy that they are
  • speaker
    who they are and they're not
  • speaker
    ashamed to say who we
  • speaker
    were.
  • speaker
    So and
  • speaker
    people in good position to not
  • speaker
    just cheap
  • speaker
    not just treat people I mean people
  • speaker
    of good authority and they
  • speaker
    feel good about knowing who
  • speaker
    they are and why
  • speaker
    they were so afraid.
  • speaker
    They feel glad that they're
  • speaker
    that they're in the position.
  • speaker
    Like the guy at the City Hall on the
  • speaker
    city council, he
  • speaker
    was shy and you see him
  • speaker
    today you tell him you said oh
  • speaker
    you wouldn't like to know the
  • speaker
    burden.
  • speaker
    It's you know and
  • speaker
    I feel the same way too being a
  • speaker
    foreigner
  • speaker
    and sometimes you're talking
  • speaker
    and you don't know
  • speaker
    what to say how to say, you know
  • speaker
    what you want to say but you don't
  • speaker
    know how to say it
  • speaker
    because you don't know if people are
  • speaker
    gonna accept it.
  • speaker
    So I could see where Janie
  • speaker
    was, where those people are coming
  • speaker
    from.
  • speaker
    So we have we have a good bonding.
  • speaker
    We had the gay community, the
  • speaker
    Caribbean.
  • speaker
    We have a good bonding because
  • speaker
    is the same thing, stereotyping.
  • speaker
    There is
  • speaker
    sometimes
  • speaker
    but the language is
  • speaker
    it really gets to you sometimes what
  • speaker
    you said. That too shall
  • speaker
    pass.
  • speaker
    Then you walk the walk of faith.
  • speaker
    This is where your faith comes in.
  • speaker
    Okay you have to dwell faith to say
  • speaker
    I'm not going to be like they are.
  • speaker
    I want to be to show them this is
  • speaker
    where God wants us to be
  • speaker
    together.
  • speaker
    And if you want us to be together
  • speaker
    we have to walk as Christians
  • speaker
    because I always said
  • speaker
    to my first one of
  • speaker
    my first Pastor Dave Dave
  • speaker
    Romney used to say
  • speaker
    you carry yourself in such a way.
  • speaker
    People could know that you're a
  • speaker
    minister the way you walk
  • speaker
    and the way your talk
  • speaker
    you're so polite in answering.
  • speaker
    So you'd know that there
  • speaker
    is not only you doing it there have
  • speaker
    to be a voice inside of you telling
  • speaker
    you be cordial
  • speaker
    to anyone,
  • speaker
    know. And so that's the same
  • speaker
    thing with us.
  • speaker
    We know you go here and oh boy.
  • speaker
    You don't know what to expect
  • speaker
    and when it comes out you find out.
  • speaker
    It's such a great way
  • speaker
    of seeing how people
  • speaker
    will react you know.
  • speaker
    So Janie make a big dent in
  • speaker
    Rochester, big,
  • speaker
    because when
  • speaker
    when she preaches
  • speaker
    and they deal with that that
  • speaker
    suddenly that church is packed.
  • speaker
    They got people coming from the East
  • speaker
    West North South just
  • speaker
    to help them, just to have her
  • speaker
    say something that can help
  • speaker
    them to hold onto,
  • speaker
    hold on to Christ.
  • speaker
    I know there's this guy.
  • speaker
    And he was stay, he stayed in that
  • speaker
    hotel right at Perinton and
  • speaker
    East Avenue.
  • speaker
    And he said "Pearl you know I
  • speaker
    haven't been to church
  • speaker
    for a whole long
  • speaker
    and once suddenly I came
  • speaker
    to your church and that woman
  • speaker
    let me feel like coming out the
  • speaker
    house." And
  • speaker
    he's out and he
  • speaker
    teaches.
  • speaker
    So you wouldn't you would people
  • speaker
    don't talk what they're feeling
  • speaker
    you know and they make you feel
  • speaker
    accepted.
  • speaker
    And that's one of the
  • speaker
    better things in life
  • speaker
    to feel accepted
  • speaker
    feel like you're a part of the
  • speaker
    community.
  • speaker
    And when they found out that she was
  • speaker
    a mother.
  • speaker
    That's that puts on another plus on
  • speaker
    it.
  • speaker
    Because she know how to treat
  • speaker
    kids and we'll
  • speaker
    have them feel no way of saying
  • speaker
    you're different or anything.
  • speaker
    So those were pluses
  • speaker
    that we have to give her for.
  • speaker
    And then
  • speaker
    you have to turn around and look to
  • speaker
    the church to get people in the
  • speaker
    church that give you the okay
  • speaker
    to do the calling.
  • speaker
    And the church did. What was the church's
  • speaker
    reaction to calling Janie?
  • speaker
    Yeah. Yeah.
  • speaker
    They give you the okay
  • speaker
    to do it and then you have to
  • speaker
    look on those people in the Session
  • speaker
    and every
  • speaker
    deacons everything you said
  • speaker
    they have to be
  • speaker
    some God.
  • speaker
    You know just said go and do that
  • speaker
    because if they didn't tell us to do
  • speaker
    it we couldn't do it.
  • speaker
    But they allow us to, they pick us
  • speaker
    and say they go do the best
  • speaker
    you can.
  • speaker
    And all of us
  • speaker
    I think it was nine or eleven of us.
  • speaker
    Eleven.
  • speaker
    Eleven for us.
  • speaker
    And I think we did the best we could
  • speaker
    to reach to that plateau.
  • speaker
    You know because when
  • speaker
    when she came I belongs to this
  • speaker
    group
  • speaker
    of, we call it,
  • speaker
    it used to be
  • speaker
    over there off the Y
  • speaker
    where
  • speaker
    they made a new Y and we had it
  • speaker
    and they gave away,
  • speaker
    they move into the new Y yet they
  • speaker
    leave these women of twelve
  • speaker
    with kids and they
  • speaker
    were kids themselves
  • speaker
    in that building to fend for
  • speaker
    themselves.
  • speaker
    No adults just pure young
  • speaker
    teenager have babies
  • speaker
    but they couldn't go to school
  • speaker
    and the Y took them in and did
  • speaker
    when the new Y moved they leave
  • speaker
    them twelve women and babies right
  • speaker
    there and this
  • speaker
    lady about five of
  • speaker
    them get together
  • speaker
    and hope the Sojourner House.
  • speaker
    And then they moved them
  • speaker
    into the building on East Main then
  • speaker
    they get a
  • speaker
    fire we move up to
  • speaker
    the 19th Ward.
  • speaker
    So anyway I was telling
  • speaker
    Janie about it and she said
  • speaker
    "Oh my God I have to see
  • speaker
    I have to see that because I've
  • speaker
    never." And you know.
  • speaker
    We call the director
  • speaker
    and she she gave her, give her a
  • speaker
    house tour of the Sojourner
  • speaker
    House and to see from
  • speaker
    whence they came to
  • speaker
    where they were going those are the
  • speaker
    interests she took in the
  • speaker
    human beings and
  • speaker
    that make her exceptional knowing
  • speaker
    that black
  • speaker
    white poor everybody
  • speaker
    is in the same basket
  • speaker
    having problems.
  • speaker
    And she was very good in that.
  • speaker
    Help each other.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    That's
  • speaker
    great.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    Thank you.
  • speaker
    Thanks.
  • speaker
    So there's
  • speaker
    so much things she did in
  • speaker
    a simple way that some
  • speaker
    people would never take it for
  • speaker
    nothing. What it means so much to
  • speaker
    the other person on the other side
  • speaker
    to say it is
  • speaker
    but when it came to the
  • speaker
    time where she
  • speaker
    had to go the church did you say
  • speaker
    go. You
  • speaker
    didn't. I said yes.
  • speaker
    We cannot use you and we cannot.
  • speaker
    They make her an evangelist now.
  • speaker
    How much more could you ask for?
  • speaker
    How much more could you ask for?
  • speaker
    How much more could you ask for? Go tell it
  • speaker
    to the mountain.
  • speaker
    Go tell it to others. And look at the.
  • speaker
    Look at the the depths that have
  • speaker
    reached you know some
  • speaker
    people you're talking to today and
  • speaker
    you say oh you know that woman
  • speaker
    Janie Spahr maybe they've never met
  • speaker
    her
  • speaker
    what she she or she have the wing
  • speaker
    on people just
  • speaker
    like a butterfly she dropped here
  • speaker
    drops there and people
  • speaker
    just pick up and keep hoping
  • speaker
    and hoping to help themselves.
  • speaker
    So that's a
  • speaker
    great that's the great stuff she
  • speaker
    has done wonders.
  • speaker
    She really has.
  • speaker
    She has to
  • speaker
    me for others I don't know.
  • speaker
    But for me she has done
  • speaker
    wonders to help people mentally
  • speaker
    physically you
  • speaker
    know because when it comes
  • speaker
    the HIV and all that
  • speaker
    stuff. She
  • speaker
    works right in there with them you
  • speaker
    know.
  • speaker
    Health wise and everything
  • speaker
    is god bless her in way.
  • speaker
    She gives me out she gave me a
  • speaker
    good I
  • speaker
    have a good grip on
  • speaker
    life because I know what her
  • speaker
    road their road and our road is the
  • speaker
    same road we have to tread.
  • speaker
    We have to tread softly quietly
  • speaker
    and hope
  • speaker
    for the best. With faith.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    Okay Miss
  • speaker
    Mary.
  • speaker
    We can keep taking turns.
  • speaker
    Boy I
  • speaker
    love hearing what you're saying.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    I love hearing what you're saying.
  • speaker
    It is good.
  • speaker
    But a couple of specifics from
  • speaker
    the PNC the night we
  • speaker
    called her finally we'd been
  • speaker
    meeting and meeting and meeting thinking
  • speaker
    we finally okay
  • speaker
    all eleven of us are on board we're
  • speaker
    ready because we
  • speaker
    had to get the office open and get
  • speaker
    to a telephone because this was pre
  • speaker
    cell phone and we
  • speaker
    were all excited to call her.
  • speaker
    And we realized it was three hours
  • speaker
    earlier in California and
  • speaker
    darn it she was driving home from
  • speaker
    work. And wasn't home yet.
  • speaker
    So we all sort of sat
  • speaker
    there jumping up and down waiting
  • speaker
    for it to be late enough in
  • speaker
    California to get hold of her.
  • speaker
    So by the time we did we were at
  • speaker
    a real pitch of.
  • speaker
    It's getting late here.
  • speaker
    We've all got to get home.
  • speaker
    We finally finally it's it's
  • speaker
    all come together. And she said
  • speaker
    "That's
  • speaker
    wonderful. We all need to to
  • speaker
    pray on it for another week."
  • speaker
    So we
  • speaker
    all went home and prayed on it for
  • speaker
    another week praying rather hard
  • speaker
    please Janie say Yes.
  • speaker
    And she did.
  • speaker
    And then we moved on toward
  • speaker
    the
  • speaker
    day that she was going to be introduced to
  • speaker
    the congregation.
  • speaker
    But before that, where did
  • speaker
    we. Which church did we use her
  • speaker
    for.
  • speaker
    The candidating one?
  • speaker
    I don't recall.
  • speaker
    I don't remember church but for
  • speaker
    them to come and give us the tests,
  • speaker
    preaching.
  • speaker
    Yeah probably because
  • speaker
    we did a whole bunch of different ones with different
  • speaker
    people.
  • speaker
    Different people.
  • speaker
    I don't remember if it's
  • speaker
    that church down. Oh
  • speaker
    forget what they called it.
  • speaker
    But what is a Presbyterian church.
  • speaker
    But we always have to find
  • speaker
    a Presbyterian church really.
  • speaker
    Really.
  • speaker
    Yeah. They were free that time
  • speaker
    that they could do the test
  • speaker
    preaching and I forget which
  • speaker
    church Janie
  • speaker
    went, then after that that we bring
  • speaker
    out to the congregation.
  • speaker
    The day we brought her to the
  • speaker
    congregation.
  • speaker
    That was the first that
  • speaker
    was the first time that I think we
  • speaker
    realized that we were off
  • speaker
    on such a wild ride up
  • speaker
    till then it had been a
  • speaker
    lot of thinking and talking and learning but
  • speaker
    in a kind of sitting
  • speaker
    around the table way.
  • speaker
    All right.
  • speaker
    People
  • speaker
    people weren't supposed to know
  • speaker
    anything about it.
  • speaker
    I mean that's the way it works.
  • speaker
    Until the day that you introduced
  • speaker
    the person to the congregation.
  • speaker
    But I'm sure that some of it had
  • speaker
    leaked out.
  • speaker
    And for that
  • speaker
    day of calling somebody
  • speaker
    and having the congregation meaning
  • speaker
    they were trying to get as many
  • speaker
    people there as we could
  • speaker
    I don't even remember what time of
  • speaker
    year it was except that it was
  • speaker
    cold and wet.
  • speaker
    But you know it's June.
  • speaker
    We've noticed it's cold and probably
  • speaker
    going to be wet too so
  • speaker
    that can keep people away.
  • speaker
    But people were making a tremendous
  • speaker
    effort to get people there who
  • speaker
    couldn't easily.
  • speaker
    And we thought they're stacking it
  • speaker
    with old people.
  • speaker
    And if somebody knows what's
  • speaker
    coming they're stacking it hoping
  • speaker
    that that will get us in
  • speaker
    negative thought. Because Jamie had
  • speaker
    said I won't come unless you have at
  • speaker
    least a 95 percent majority,
  • speaker
    not 100. You can always have a
  • speaker
    couple of people that are hold outs
  • speaker
    but this is going to be difficult.
  • speaker
    We need at least a 95 percent to get
  • speaker
    there.
  • speaker
    So we went through all of the
  • speaker
    normal introducing and talking about
  • speaker
    things and then the PNC
  • speaker
    and Janie had to withdraw
  • speaker
    during the congregational meeting.
  • speaker
    Usually these things take 10
  • speaker
    minutes.
  • speaker
    They're just a rubber stamp.
  • speaker
    This one wasn't going to be.
  • speaker
    And we were
  • speaker
    sequestered in somebody's
  • speaker
    office and we quite
  • speaker
    quickly got tired of it.
  • speaker
    If it had been half an hour and
  • speaker
    we wanted to know what was going on.
  • speaker
    So we quietly
  • speaker
    feeling like kids.
  • speaker
    Went out into the hall.
  • speaker
    There are swinging doors to the
  • speaker
    sanctuary you would have sort of a
  • speaker
    crack. And like
  • speaker
    kids we were all
  • speaker
    kind of taking turns leaning up and
  • speaker
    peeking through the crack to see
  • speaker
    what was happening.
  • speaker
    What was happening was that Anthony
  • speaker
    had set up a mike.
  • speaker
    And two lines doing
  • speaker
    it just the way you do at General
  • speaker
    Assembly or something.
  • speaker
    Pro and con, pro and con, pro and
  • speaker
    con.
  • speaker
    And there
  • speaker
    was one vote
  • speaker
    and it was it was
  • speaker
    a substantial majority but not a
  • speaker
    good enough majority.
  • speaker
    But instead of taking it he said I
  • speaker
    think we need to hear from more
  • speaker
    people.
  • speaker
    It went on for three hours.
  • speaker
    Every time somebody needed to go to
  • speaker
    the bathroom
  • speaker
    we had to quickly leap away from the
  • speaker
    fact that we were all just standing
  • speaker
    there and listening, leaning
  • speaker
    on the door, listening at the crack.
  • speaker
    People stayed and
  • speaker
    stayed and stayed.
  • speaker
    The,
  • speaker
    John was on the committee but he
  • speaker
    wasn't chair. The wife
  • speaker
    of one of the PNC members is a
  • speaker
    Quaker, so she comes to the church
  • speaker
    but she's not a member so she can't
  • speaker
    vote.
  • speaker
    So we knew she was doing child care
  • speaker
    upstairs but she hadn't planned to
  • speaker
    feed the kids lunch because we
  • speaker
    expected that she'd be doing
  • speaker
    childcare for 30 minutes, and it was
  • speaker
    now way
  • speaker
    into the afternoon.
  • speaker
    And somebody,
  • speaker
    I don't remember who, realized what
  • speaker
    was going on and
  • speaker
    sent somebody else out to
  • speaker
    get the supplies for Phoebe
  • speaker
    to feed the kids upstairs.
  • speaker
    People were starting to get worried
  • speaker
    that we had some very old people
  • speaker
    there who hadn't had lunch, that
  • speaker
    somebody was going to think that
  • speaker
    somebody was going to get low blood
  • speaker
    sugar or something and nobody left.
  • speaker
    I don't remember whether
  • speaker
    people. Somebody started handing out
  • speaker
    crackers, but it was something like
  • speaker
    that.
  • speaker
    We had foraged here and there, you
  • speaker
    know the Sunday School graham
  • speaker
    crackers and stuff.
  • speaker
    But this went on for,
  • speaker
    I think till three o'clock and
  • speaker
    nobody had had lunch.
  • speaker
    Nobody was leaving.
  • speaker
    In fact people were afraid to go to
  • speaker
    the bathroom because they were
  • speaker
    afraid. And
  • speaker
    finally around 3 o'clock.
  • speaker
    We heard something changing
  • speaker
    and we got a 95 percent
  • speaker
    and then suddenly everybody
  • speaker
    everything capitulated.
  • speaker
    People who had been holding off
  • speaker
    because they thought it was
  • speaker
    difficult they were with
  • speaker
    us. We were with them.
  • speaker
    We all went back in.
  • speaker
    We heard somebody saying
  • speaker
    we'll go down to Gayle's office to
  • speaker
    get the PNC
  • speaker
    and the PNC who had not been in Gayle's office.
  • speaker
    It's twelve thirty hastily tried
  • speaker
    to look so we hadn't been
  • speaker
    leaning out the cracks for hours
  • speaker
    but in a way it was absolutely
  • speaker
    wonderful.
  • speaker
    We had people who were in their 90s
  • speaker
    getting up and saying things like
  • speaker
    "I belong to this church for
  • speaker
    maybe 60 years.
  • speaker
    And I was very active
  • speaker
    in women's suffrage." I mean they were that old, and saying.
  • speaker
    And and
  • speaker
    I think that we need to vote yes.
  • speaker
    Lots of people who were
  • speaker
    coming up with their walkers who
  • speaker
    who I think glancing
  • speaker
    around at the people who said we
  • speaker
    just don't really want to get into
  • speaker
    such a mess we're sure that
  • speaker
    they would not want to and they were
  • speaker
    some of the most outspoken ones
  • speaker
    they'd been there for women's
  • speaker
    suffrage.
  • speaker
    They'd been there for sanctuary.
  • speaker
    They'd been really active in civil
  • speaker
    rights.
  • speaker
    And they thought that it was time
  • speaker
    that we
  • speaker
    spoke, stepped out in
  • speaker
    faith for what we believed was
  • speaker
    right.
  • speaker
    Yeah and hold on and
  • speaker
    faith conquers all.
  • speaker
    And held on.
  • speaker
    And in a way that started
  • speaker
    a lot of very good
  • speaker
    feeling toward it.
  • speaker
    And at that point.
  • speaker
    We thought we're past this.
  • speaker
    And after all we're the ones who are
  • speaker
    going to be directly involved.
  • speaker
    And so nobody else is
  • speaker
    going to get too excited.
  • speaker
    And at first nobody else did.
  • speaker
    And
  • speaker
    then the Presbytery started to
  • speaker
    or not the Presbytery.
  • speaker
    But people began to call the
  • speaker
    issue and complain.
  • speaker
    And complain.
  • speaker
    And this is when we changed from
  • speaker
    we were no longer the pastoral
  • speaker
    nominating committee theoretically
  • speaker
    we dissolved as soon as she
  • speaker
    was called.
  • speaker
    However we were now the perpetual
  • speaker
    nominating committee which
  • speaker
    met fairly often actually for
  • speaker
    about two more years.
  • speaker
    As a support group and
  • speaker
    managing some
  • speaker
    of these things. The
  • speaker
    day that I
  • speaker
    don't remember whether it was Presbytery
  • speaker
    or Synod but we'd gotten fairly
  • speaker
    far up in the
  • speaker
    judicial process.
  • speaker
    And then we got a
  • speaker
    negative.
  • speaker
    Yeah a negative.
  • speaker
    Yeah. Then we were told no
  • speaker
    you can't again.
  • speaker
    And we'd gotten so far we could
  • speaker
    hardly believe it.
  • speaker
    And
  • speaker
    that again was an
  • speaker
    amazing day. I don't know where you
  • speaker
    were. I was teaching third grade
  • speaker
    you only
  • speaker
    in those days again with
  • speaker
    the phone not even in
  • speaker
    your classroom but a phone shared by
  • speaker
    several rooms.
  • speaker
    You don't get a personal phone call
  • speaker
    unless your
  • speaker
    child was in the emergency room.
  • speaker
    Suddenly somebody said "Mary
  • speaker
    I'll watch your classroom you've got
  • speaker
    a phone call it's very important"
  • speaker
    and I said "Well what happened?"
  • speaker
    What happened was Ginny Davidson
  • speaker
    saying that
  • speaker
    the vote had just happened.
  • speaker
    It had been bad.
  • speaker
    And would I
  • speaker
    would we get down to church right
  • speaker
    after work like everybody come
  • speaker
    as fast as you can.
  • speaker
    She said we're gathering up food.
  • speaker
    We're going to have to figure out
  • speaker
    what to do.
  • speaker
    So I went
  • speaker
    back to my class
  • speaker
    and the teacher who had my class
  • speaker
    said "Has there been a death?"
  • speaker
    I said no.
  • speaker
    He said "Because that's what you
  • speaker
    look like.
  • speaker
    You're in really bad shape.
  • speaker
    Let me bring your kids over with my
  • speaker
    kids, and we'll do something from
  • speaker
    now till lunchtime." Said
  • speaker
    "You're in really bad shape."
  • speaker
    I was.
  • speaker
    Yeah but it works its way out there.
  • speaker
    But we came down.
  • speaker
    It turned out to be not so much so
  • speaker
    though by the afternoon
  • speaker
    by the time I got out probably
  • speaker
    earlier than a lot of people because
  • speaker
    a lot of people work until five
  • speaker
    thirty and I left
  • speaker
    the second that my kids were out of
  • speaker
    school so I got down.
  • speaker
    Virginia was briskly organizing
  • speaker
    things. The first thing I did
  • speaker
    was go over to Fabrics and Findings,
  • speaker
    and I bought them out of rainbow
  • speaker
    ribbon every yard of
  • speaker
    ribbon that the store had
  • speaker
    which was a lot of ribbon
  • speaker
    and
  • speaker
    and straight pins.
  • speaker
    And make those.
  • speaker
    Yeah. Anyway we made we made
  • speaker
    ribbons. We came back.
  • speaker
    I also, did
  • speaker
    I go home? Or did we buy this?
  • speaker
    Oh I know. I think we bought it.
  • speaker
    We also bought something like 10
  • speaker
    yards of rainbow fabric
  • speaker
    and we covered a huge long table up
  • speaker
    there in the Halleck lounge
  • speaker
    and people who weren't working
  • speaker
    had been on the phone to other
  • speaker
    people. So people brought the food
  • speaker
    but it wasn't like the organized
  • speaker
    potluck where people planned what
  • speaker
    they brought.
  • speaker
    It was more than that people grab
  • speaker
    whatever they happened to have
  • speaker
    around that you can grab fast so
  • speaker
    that like all these half loaves of
  • speaker
    bread and jars of peanut butter and
  • speaker
    hunks of cheese and stuff on table
  • speaker
    and a couple of more organized
  • speaker
    people had brought down crockpots
  • speaker
    and were making soup there because
  • speaker
    people just came.
  • speaker
    Everybody was wearing their work
  • speaker
    badges because nobody had
  • speaker
    gone home.
  • speaker
    People were wearing scrubs because
  • speaker
    they hadn't gone home.
  • speaker
    We were just wearing it and we wound
  • speaker
    up with I don't remember.
  • speaker
    I can't have any idea how many
  • speaker
    hundreds of people.
  • speaker
    And we had a service of lamentation.
  • speaker
    By this time we were also be.
  • speaker
    Well I guess this is about the
  • speaker
    beginning. We were used to the fact
  • speaker
    that we were going to have TV
  • speaker
    cameras
  • speaker
    on the sidewalk and in worship and
  • speaker
    people climbing around with
  • speaker
    microphones.
  • speaker
    But I remember that night thinking
  • speaker
    we don't know where we're going.
  • speaker
    A lot of wilderness and no map.
  • speaker
    But we're going to be okay.
  • speaker
    And I'm really happy to be in the
  • speaker
    thick of it.
  • speaker
    Actually not fun having people
  • speaker
    poking in the surface with TV
  • speaker
    cameras and some of that
  • speaker
    gets scary
  • speaker
    and a lot of people said
  • speaker
    "We really support this
  • speaker
    but prefer to do it from a
  • speaker
    distance."
  • speaker
    What of the big thing that comes
  • speaker
    out of it though.
  • speaker
    The aftermath a lot of
  • speaker
    the woman in ministry have to give
  • speaker
    their hat
  • speaker
    to Janie because she
  • speaker
    opens the door
  • speaker
    for a woman to be
  • speaker
    in ministry.
  • speaker
    They didn't want no woman and they
  • speaker
    didn't want no gay.
  • speaker
    Double team.
  • speaker
    But today we're having it in
  • speaker
    so many different churches.
  • speaker
    Woman and they're gay
  • speaker
    and they don't have no backlash so
  • speaker
    they have they have to
  • speaker
    lift their hat off to Janie.
  • speaker
    Maybe they don't want to they might
  • speaker
    think because they're educated.
  • speaker
    What that that note
  • speaker
    of entrance all came
  • speaker
    from that.
  • speaker
    She opened doors and opened doors
  • speaker
    and opened doors.
  • speaker
    She opened the door for us as
  • speaker
    foreigners too
  • speaker
    not to take it slightly,
  • speaker
    fight it and fight it with grace
  • speaker
    and dignity.
  • speaker
    They would have no
  • speaker
    rowdy cried crying
  • speaker
    and calling the names and
  • speaker
    just go with it.
  • speaker
    In a spiritual way, in a blessed way
  • speaker
    and it works its way.
  • speaker
    It works its way out.
Details
Title

Pearl Rugless O'Meally and Mary Ludlow Bookout oral history, 2019.

Description

Pearl Rugless O'Meally and Mary Ludlow were on the nominating committee that called Janie Spahr to serve as pastor of Downtown United Presbyterian Church and early members of That All May Freely Serve (TAMFS). TAMFS began in 1993 after Rev. Jane Adams Spahr, a lesbian minister, was banned by the Permanent Judicial Commission from accepting a call to serve as a pastor of Downtown United Presbyterian Church (Rochester, NY). Downtown Church formed TAMFS ministry in response, electing Spahr to serve as a "lesbian evangelist" to the PC(USA), and advocating for the full inclusion of LGBTQIA+ Presbyterians.

Creator

Rugless O'Meally, Pearl. (interviewee)
Ludlow, Mary. (interviewee)
Wittrig, Elizabeth L. (interviewer)

Date

2019
June 2019

Type of resource

moving image

Genre

oral histories
interviews

Form

born digital
video recordings

Extent

9.08 GB (1 MP4 file)

Subject names

That All May Freely Serve (Association)
Downtown United Presbyterian Church (Rochester, N.Y.)
Rugless O'Meally, Pearl.
Ludlow, Mary.
Spahr, Jane Adams.

Topics

Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)--Homosexuality--Religious aspects.
Ordination of lesbians.
Presbyterian women.

Geographic subjects

Rochester (N.Y.)
North and Central America--United States--New York--Monroe--Rochester

Rights status

IN COPYRIGHT - NON-COMMERCIAL USE PERMITTED; http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/

Physical location

ARCHIVES 19-0602; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA

Related item

That All May Freely Serve oral histories, 2019.--http://prestohost68.inmagic.com/Presto/content/Detail.aspx?ctID=Y2RiNWNk...

Identifier (local)

19-0602_OMeallyBookout

PID (Persistent Identifier)

islandora:177400

Bookmark

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