Paul Lamar oral history, 2021.

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    There we go, and we're recording.
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    Hi, my name is David Staniunas.
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    I'm records archivist with the
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    Presbyterian Historical Society.
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    Today is the 18th of February,
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    2021.
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    And I'm in conversation with
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    Paul Lamar.
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    Paul, you are
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    the son of the moderator, Robert
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    Lamar.
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    That's right.
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    I wondered if you would begin
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    by kind of
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    talking about your
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    father's work as
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    moderator and kind of, you know,
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    his legacy and kind of begin by
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    reflecting on that, that might be
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    too large to start.
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    Well, I'll I'll
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    try to find a way in.
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    You know, Dad has been gone now two
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    years. And as
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    you know, there was a trove
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    of material, both personal and
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    professional, that
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    he saved for many
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    years through many moves and even
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    a couple of fires.
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    Well, a fire which destroyed
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    other things, but thankfully didn't
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    destroy a lot of the stuff that I've
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    already sent you.
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    So we have
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    a lot that we did not want to
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    dispose of, but we wanted to
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    make sure got into the right hands.
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    And the letters
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    between him and his mother
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    back and forth for 13 years
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    were absolutely wonderful.
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    And they've gone to his younger
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    siblings.
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    92 and 87
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    who have enjoyed looking at
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    some of this correspondence because
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    they're mentioned as little kids or
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    teenagers.
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    So this has been a kind of heartfelt
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    joy for them to recall
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    their childhood.
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    And then, of course, I would say
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    there are, as I have
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    sent stuff to you and in fact,
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    have some more that I'm preparing
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    to send to you,
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    I think of Dad's
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    different churches that
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    he served as well
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    as his year as moderator, as
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    well as his participation
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    in reunion.
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    And those, for me, are kind of
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    the major touchstones
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    of his ministry, which lasted
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    from 1945
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    to 1992 when
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    he retired from First Presbyterian
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    Church.
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    So I don't know.
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    I think I can try
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    to thread this a little bit
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    to say what I think
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    have been some constants in his
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    work in his ministry.
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    And I go back to
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    a letter that I found from
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    his freshman year when he was in
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    Yale in the spring when he talked
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    about wanting to become a minister.
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    So this was back in the spring
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    of 1940 when he really
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    identified the ministry as something
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    he wanted to do.
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    He acknowledged that he was
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    had been talking to older men
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    in religion and I assume
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    some ministers as well.
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    But this was an early
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    interest of his.
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    And after Yale, he went to Yale
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    Divinity School and with
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    his characteristic characteristic
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    energy and love for
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    challenge, he
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    became a minister of a little church
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    that was organizing as a
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    Presbyterian church and had already
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    been one, been a church.
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    But this was in Milford,
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    Connecticut, in 1945.
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    And he was there as a Yale Divinity
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    School student, graduated in 46,
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    but stayed on till 1950,
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    helping to build the church
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    literally.
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    And you will get a picture in fact
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    in the next week of him in his shirt
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    sleeves and
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    there, helping to build
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    build the actual building.
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    So, so went to
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    and then he went to Stamford,
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    Connecticut, where he was involved
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    in the building of yet another
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    structure, the famous Fish
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    Church.
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    I don't know if that's familiar to
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    you?
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    Very much so.
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    Is it?
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    Yes.
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    Yes.
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    So he was there until 1958
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    and was
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    instrumental, I think I would say,
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    in terms of the vision of
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    creating a new structure
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    from an 1880s
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    church that was torn down.
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    And then this new one was built,
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    I would say, that
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    he was always,
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    I won't say one step ahead, but he
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    was always looking ahead and
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    he was looking ahead in terms
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    of individual churches that he
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    served and he was looking ahead
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    culturally to what
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    we could do better all
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    the time.
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    And I came across a sermon.
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    And David, if I'd mentioned it to
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    you, I'm I
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    apologize for repeating it.
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    But it talked about
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    he this was 1955
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    and he said there was
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    a new
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    committee that was being proposed
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    on desegregation.
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    And his comment was,
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    it's a shame that we
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    even have to have such a committee.
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    And his sermon was about
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    marginalized people
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    at the time
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    talking about immigrants and talking
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    about African Americans,
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    etc.
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    So he was speaking
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    to white congregations for the most
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    part, all in all his career.
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    These were established
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    churches that
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    were basically white.
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    But he was always, as I say,
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    because of a real commitment,
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    a real belief, real philosophy
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    that the wider
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    world needed to be embraced and
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    that wider world was
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    local.
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    It was urban.
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    And then beyond
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    that, it was the other
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    stream and his ministry was
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    ecumenism.
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    He became
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    very deeply connected with
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    our bishop here in Albany.
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    And rabbis in
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    Albany formed a famous
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    triumvirate of people
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    who wanted to bridge
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    the faiths.
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    So again, looking
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    beyond Presbyterianism
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    exclusively and thinking about how
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    to.
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    How to reach out to the wider
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    religious world and that
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    that was important to him.
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    So your father was
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    the moderator of the
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    Joint Committee on Reunion
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    starting in 1969.
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    Yes, and it was
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    achieved 14 years later.
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    The
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    fascinating series of stories,
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    because, I mean, the kind of
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    earliest gestures toward
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    full Presbyterian reunion start
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    in like the twenties with
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    the efflorescence of
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    the ecumenical movement.
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    Yes.
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    Do you
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    I'm
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    I'm beginning to think about
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    this because
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    when he
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    became moderator in 1974,
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    the church has just kind of crested
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    over a series
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    of events that would
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    really like transform
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    both the UPCUSA and the
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    old PCUS.
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    The church's response to
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    Jim Forman and the Black Manifesto,
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    the kind of.
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    The call for reparations
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    and the church's establishment of
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    the Committee on Self Development of
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    People, the
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    church's response
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    to an overture
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    to support the legal defense
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    of Angela Davis, and then
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    the backlash against
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    that decision. The
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    church elected the first female
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    moderator in Lois Stair.
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    69, 70, 71, and 74.
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    Your father is moderatorial year
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    happens in Louisville, Kentucky,
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    where eventually, you
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    know, all of the national
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    agencies decamped to
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    in 1988.
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    So it's kind of a precursor to that.
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    Yeah.
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    And in
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    74, so after
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    this kind of period of intense.
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    Upheaval probably.
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    Upheaval yeah, activity and then
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    back and forth.
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    Right, right.
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    And your father comes
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    in as moderator and I'm just going
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    to quote from this one New York
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    Times article at the time,
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    Lamar explained at a news conference
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    that although he was a social
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    activist, he felt recent
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    annual General Assembly that
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    stressed the social dimension, New
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    York Times, without equal weight to
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    piety, a stake
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    is not keeping these in
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    balance.
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    Interesting.
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    Which would not be so
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    publicly like at a press conference.
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    Right.
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    To deal with The New York Times,
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    he's emphasizing or he's
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    attempting to kind of deemphasize
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    the.
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    The social
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    activism of the church
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    via like CORAR,
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    you know.
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    And I wonder if you had encountered
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    anything in
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    his correspondence or sermons to
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    kind of like flesh
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    out that idea.
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    Well, no, this
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    is to be perfectly
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    honest, David. This is new
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    to me that that he would make a
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    distinction or I don't
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    even want to say because I do not
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    think of him as someone who would
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    turn his back
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    on things, on progress.
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    I don't know why.
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    Interesting use of the word piety.
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    I wonder if
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    I almost was going to fill it in
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    before you actually use the word to
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    say if a return to scripture
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    or return to
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    conventional religious
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    discussions striking
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    a balance between don't
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    forget our Presbyterian faith,
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    whatever that means and how it is
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    witnessed in the wider world.
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    But that's an interesting point.
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    So that's something I would have to
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    digest to say,
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    OK, that's you know,
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    that's.
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    Obviously, that's a perspective
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    with which I'm not familiar.
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    Let's put it that way.
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    And, you know, honestly, when you
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    look at it, you may think it may
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    just be a matter of The New York
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    Times reporting on
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    the activities of Presbyterians
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    without really understanding where
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    they came from,
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    you know, because it's very easy to
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    like.
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    People who aren't acquainted with
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    the tradition haven't heard about,
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    like the,
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    you know, the struggles of the 1860s
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    and the I'm going
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    to mess this up, but the doctrine of
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    the purity of the church.
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    Right. Which was basically the
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    argument that the church
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    should be focused on God
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    and God alone and not
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    intervene in secular
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    or civil matters.
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    It sounds like The New York Times is
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    basically stuck there.
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    Right?
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    Right.
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    It I'll say one thing
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    and it's funny.
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    I it would be difficult
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    for me to speak about
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    Presbyterianism
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    because a long time ago
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    I left the
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    church. I left any kind of
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    organized religion really as
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    a as a college student.
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    So, you know, your information,
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    your reference to
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    other events in the history of the
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    church.
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    It would would be new to me
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    and my father and I
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    and would
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    probably not talk
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    particularly about
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    the specifics of the church.
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    In other words, I think I stood
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    back and watched him move
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    in the wider world
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    with admiration and said,
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    yes, he he
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    is a person who is interested
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    beyond
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    the confines of what's been given to
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    him and where he might
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    choose happily to operate
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    if he didn't want to operate
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    and believe that that was a calling
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    to operate beyond the scope of
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    his small sphere.
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    So that's
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    it's a very generic
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    way to look at
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    his life's work, I suppose.
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    But that's that's where it is, you
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    know. And I think if you asked any
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    of our my two brothers
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    and sister, we would all
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    say in part, we chose
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    our careers, two teachers
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    and a social worker
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    who because of
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    the interest and the examples
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    of both my father and my
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    mother,
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    who was equally
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    passionate about
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    the other, equally passionate
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    about the wider world.
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    So, yeah.
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    Yeah, I'm not
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    going to harp on this, but it just
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    it I think.
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    Seeing the difference between you
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    know, the account of Robert
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    Lamar that's in the records and the
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    account that is public in The New
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    York Times.
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    Right.
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    Was really just a reminder to me
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    that
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    piety and work
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    in the civil or secular
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    sphere are not
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    they're not distinct in the
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    Presbyterian tradition.
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    Right?
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    The whole the church's work
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    in the 69 to 71
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    period is
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    entirely derived from the
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    passage of the Confession of 1967.
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    It flows directly out of
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    like this is, you
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    know, Presbyterians are called
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    upon to
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    reconcile the world.
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    Work of reconciliation was what
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    the assembly believed it was doing.
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    Right.
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    From 69 to 71. It's one
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    solid continuum.
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    Yeah.
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    You
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    mentioned kind of
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    stepping back from
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    organized religion
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    as like an 18 year old.
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    Would you are you comfortable
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    talking about that and how that kind
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    of realization came about?
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    Oh, sure, sure.
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    And it's probably,
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    David, kind of lazy realization.
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    I hate to say it, but my interests,
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    I think and interestingly,
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    I think I could speak for
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    probably my siblings and
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    even my late mother
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    to say that all of us
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    were admiring of our
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    father.
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    All of us
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    responded to the example
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    of.
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    Always reaching out,
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    as I say, always thinking ahead
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    and trying to be a servant in
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    the larger world,
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    but we all chose different paths
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    and along the way
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    developed different interests
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    and just.
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    Left the church and I would
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    say, to be very
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    honest, I would say the
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    four of us kids have turned out
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    to be either agnostics or atheists,
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    but maybe not even something so
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    defined it's just
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    that we
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    are not religious.
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    Are we spiritual, perhaps,
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    but I'm not even sure about
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    all that.
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    So I do
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    remember I can tell you a moment
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    where and if this is of any
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    interest. But in my senior year I
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    was also at Yale and my senior
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    year I was asked by a friend
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    who was a year older if I would
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    like to become a deacon in
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    Battell Chapel.
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    And William Sloane Coffin was
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    the minister at the time.
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    And I knew Coffin.
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    And I was
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    very flattered
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    when David
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    asked me about that.
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    And then I thought and I wrote
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    to Coffin and
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    said I would be disingenuous
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    if I said yes to this, because
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    I don't feel I
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    don't feel what I think is required
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    of a deacon, which is
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    a piety and and a belief
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    in the larger system that I,
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    as a student deacon, would be
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    serving.
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    Now, I don't I didn't know
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    the full scope of what a deacon did,
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    to be honest.
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    But I had a sense that
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    this was probably not
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    the right position and that it
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    would be inappropriate of me
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    because I knew my own spiritual
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    lack of interest to
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    say, yes, I'd be part of that, just
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    to be part of it.
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    So I do remember
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    that that was a moment where I
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    confronted something and said, no,
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    I don't want I can't be part
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    of this because I would be insincere
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    and I didn't want to be insincere.
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    And so. Yeah.
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    And so
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    growing up in Albany,
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    you know.
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    Were.
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    I mean, you've mentioned, like the
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    kind of transformations that have
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    that happen to like all families.
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    People come and go from traditions
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    pretty flexibly.
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    One, a former
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    stated clerk and a good friend
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    of ours Gradye Parsons
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    used to talk about the Presbyterian
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    family as
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    and religion in America as
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    being like basically
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    at this point,
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    like a la carte,
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    you know, you can have
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    family that's Methodist one week and
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    Baptist another week people marry
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    into
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    Roman Catholicism.
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    And so
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    it's not your grandpappy's
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    Presbyterianism.
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    Right.
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    Your family's experience is common
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    and shared by many, many people.
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    So you did you did most of
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    your growing up in Albany?
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    Well, I'd say split.
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    No, most of it probably in
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    Stamford.
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    We moved to Albany when I was 13.
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    And so I had high school here
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    in Albany.
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    Eighth grade and high school.
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    But and I have my younger
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    siblings. I'm the oldest of the four
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    have, of course, different
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    memories of both Stamford
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    and even Milford and
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    and Albany.
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    But one of the other things that
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    to say something about our
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    coming to Albany and Dad and the
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    60s, it's interesting.
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    I think that Dad, when he looked
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    back at he was
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    of a certain age.
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    He was in his early 40s when the
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    60s came.
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    So he had a certain degree of
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    experience as well
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    as energy.
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    And and I
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    think it was a good combination
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    of the man for
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    the time period.
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    In other words, the world was
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    exciting.
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    The world was demanding more
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    different things.
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    And, you know,
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    he had an appetite for
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    for what was going on.
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    And I'm thinking of a few things
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    that happened just locally.
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    The church, the First Pres
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    joined with a Baptist Church
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    and another Presbyterian
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    church and a Methodist
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    church in the downtown
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    area, and they became a group
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    which still exists called the Focus
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    Churches.
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    And the point of this was to take
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    these four congregations,
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    which were made up
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    in many cases of
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    suburban families
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    and make them responsive
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    to or help them become
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    responsive to the needs
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    of urban people of
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    urban neighborhoods.
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    So this group developed, I
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    think, in about 1966
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    or 67.
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    And
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    so they pooled ideas,
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    resources, money
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    to create these
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    focused churches.
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    And then over time,
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    they invited other churches
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    to to join this
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    this quartet and
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    to increase the outreach.
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    So that was one manifestation
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    of of why
  • speaker
    the 60s were exciting, I
  • speaker
    think, and important to
  • speaker
    to Dad in terms of
  • speaker
    reaching out and crossing barriers,
  • speaker
    et cetera.
  • speaker
    Yeah, yeah.
  • speaker
    It's interesting.
  • speaker
    And it's a testament to his
  • speaker
    commitment
  • speaker
    as an ecumenist
  • speaker
    that he worked at
  • speaker
    the national level and at the local
  • speaker
    level, like equally
  • speaker
    so.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    100 percent. And so.
  • speaker
    Your.
  • speaker
    Was your family, like, very much
  • speaker
    involved in the ministry at
  • speaker
    First Albany, or was it really
  • speaker
    just kind of dad's job
  • speaker
    and.
  • speaker
    Well, all of.
  • speaker
    Well, let's see, all of us were
  • speaker
    involved in the life of the church
  • speaker
    as kids and teens.
  • speaker
    In other words, I did
  • speaker
    we all did a
  • speaker
    kind of step stair
  • speaker
    experience, you know, being in Bible
  • speaker
    school and then being confirmed
  • speaker
    and then you know senior high
  • speaker
    fellowship, that kind of thing.
  • speaker
    So, yes, we all had that.
  • speaker
    We all also loved the people
  • speaker
    in the church. I think if you asked
  • speaker
    us were they part of our
  • speaker
    lives, our community, the answer
  • speaker
    would be yes.
  • speaker
    We knew who everybody was.
  • speaker
    And I
  • speaker
    always felt that this was a
  • speaker
    family and a warm and wonderful
  • speaker
    place to be, you know?
  • speaker
    So. Yes, and
  • speaker
    and my mother, too.
  • speaker
    Perhaps God was not
  • speaker
    you know, we could go down another
  • speaker
    road, but I think
  • speaker
    early on she found
  • speaker
    other outlets more social rather
  • speaker
    than religious outlets to
  • speaker
    be involved in.
  • speaker
    So she was not
  • speaker
    and I'll go back to when I say this
  • speaker
    expression in the 50s,
  • speaker
    she was not, I would say a
  • speaker
    traditional
  • speaker
    minister's wife, if I could even
  • speaker
    be so broad to say that
  • speaker
    that is she was not
  • speaker
    actively involved in all
  • speaker
    aspects of the church.
  • speaker
    She supported Dad
  • speaker
    and obviously supported
  • speaker
    of the family because Dad was very
  • speaker
    busy out all
  • speaker
    the time, you know, at one thing or
  • speaker
    another.
  • speaker
    But in terms of her response
  • speaker
    to the larger world, it tended to
  • speaker
    be in community organizations
  • speaker
    that she was interested in.
  • speaker
    And partly I think it was to say,
  • speaker
    this is my identity.
  • speaker
    Right? I am
  • speaker
    I I agree with
  • speaker
    the philosophy Dad has.
  • speaker
    Absolutely.
  • speaker
    And just to tell you a
  • speaker
    side note,
  • speaker
    1952,
  • speaker
    they were stumping for Adlai
  • speaker
    Stevenson and
  • speaker
    I was
  • speaker
    seven years old.
  • speaker
    And I remember coming into
  • speaker
    their bedroom the next morning
  • speaker
    and I said did he win did he win?
  • speaker
    And they said, oh no.
  • speaker
    And I in my childish
  • speaker
    way, I just, I was feeling crushed
  • speaker
    by it and I said, Oh dear,
  • speaker
    flash forward to 1956.
  • speaker
    I'm a little older, the same
  • speaker
    scenario. And I run, I go in and I
  • speaker
    say, did he win, did he win?
  • speaker
    They said Oh no, no, no.
  • speaker
    But one of the things that connected
  • speaker
    them, David, and this is a
  • speaker
    little bit of an aside, you
  • speaker
    know, ultimately they got divorced.
  • speaker
    They were married for 39 years
  • speaker
    and ultimately got divorced,
  • speaker
    but they came
  • speaker
    from
  • speaker
    somewhat conservative families.
  • speaker
    And in each case,
  • speaker
    each of them stood out from the
  • speaker
    family as being very liberal
  • speaker
    Democrats.
  • speaker
    Whereas in other the
  • speaker
    other family members, as I recall,
  • speaker
    were more Republicans.
  • speaker
    So my mom and dad, despite
  • speaker
    whatever ultimate differences they
  • speaker
    had politically
  • speaker
    and socially, were always
  • speaker
    on the same page and found great
  • speaker
    support in each other for
  • speaker
    what they thought were
  • speaker
    the values in life and
  • speaker
    what government should be and
  • speaker
    how government should be responsive.
  • speaker
    So we we always joke about it.
  • speaker
    The kids, you know, the four of us
  • speaker
    will say, oh, yes, they
  • speaker
    they formed this little nucleus
  • speaker
    of the Democratic Adlai
  • speaker
    Stevenson support
  • speaker
    and and the four of
  • speaker
    us bingo.
  • speaker
    That's always the way or usually the
  • speaker
    way. So anyway.
  • speaker
    That's a that's a great
  • speaker
    story.
  • speaker
    It's just a glimpse.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    And so, you know, you mentioned your
  • speaker
    your mother was kind of
  • speaker
    during this period discovering
  • speaker
    her own identity, kind of the
  • speaker
    community organizations.
  • speaker
    Do you
  • speaker
    can you reflect on, like
  • speaker
    some aspects of your own
  • speaker
    discovery of your identity
  • speaker
    growing up as a kid in the sixties?
  • speaker
    Yeah, sure.
  • speaker
    Well.
  • speaker
    You know, it's a very
  • speaker
    all of the I sometimes make
  • speaker
    the mistake, I have to remind myself
  • speaker
    at the age of 75, I have
  • speaker
    to remember that kids
  • speaker
    coming up today, despite the
  • speaker
    fact that there is a whole history
  • speaker
    and a more open culture
  • speaker
    than when I was growing up.
  • speaker
    Nevertheless, have to do it
  • speaker
    individually.
  • speaker
    One by one.
  • speaker
    They have family and they have to
  • speaker
    confront the same things that
  • speaker
    anybody always in the closet
  • speaker
    had to confront back in the day.
  • speaker
    So and
  • speaker
    so. I am so glad
  • speaker
    we are where we are culturally.
  • speaker
    But it is a it's
  • speaker
    a personal journey.
  • speaker
    And
  • speaker
    my parents' openness, my parents
  • speaker
    love notwithstanding.
  • speaker
    It took a
  • speaker
    while to
  • speaker
    come to not to come to grips
  • speaker
    with who I am because I've known
  • speaker
    that.
  • speaker
    Since five or six, and
  • speaker
    that's just the bottom line,
  • speaker
    but in terms of
  • speaker
    acknowledging or behaving,
  • speaker
    not until after college,
  • speaker
    you know, when I was in graduate
  • speaker
    school. Yeah.
  • speaker
    So when I was in graduate school, I
  • speaker
    was at Harvard Ed School in 1969
  • speaker
    and.
  • speaker
    I had spoken to my dad a little bit
  • speaker
    earlier that this was what was going
  • speaker
    on with me and
  • speaker
    I don't even recall what words I
  • speaker
    might have used, but I knew
  • speaker
    that he was someone I could speak to
  • speaker
    and judgment would
  • speaker
    not be forthcoming, that is, it
  • speaker
    would be only love and compassion
  • speaker
    as well. As, you know, I'm not sure
  • speaker
    what we do
  • speaker
    because he didn't have a playbook at
  • speaker
    the time. And a lot of
  • speaker
    information about, you know,
  • speaker
    what does this mean, etc.
  • speaker
    So in 1969,
  • speaker
    when I was starting graduate
  • speaker
    school, I decided,
  • speaker
    well, here I am in Boston and
  • speaker
    better figure out what to do.
  • speaker
    I went to a therapist and
  • speaker
    again, I'd gone to therapists
  • speaker
    before. I went to a therapist in
  • speaker
    one session.
  • speaker
    And after that
  • speaker
    session I said, this isn't
  • speaker
    going to work. I need to find out
  • speaker
    what's what's going on.
  • speaker
    So I found a gay lib
  • speaker
    meeting over at Boston University,
  • speaker
    hitched up my big boy pants and
  • speaker
    took the subway
  • speaker
    to be you and,
  • speaker
    you know, walked, I've written
  • speaker
    about this and walked into.
  • speaker
    And you're too young to know
  • speaker
    this, David, but walked into
  • speaker
    a smoke filled seminar
  • speaker
    room full of young.
  • speaker
    I'm not that young.
  • speaker
    OK, all right.
  • speaker
    I,
  • speaker
    I am I am part of the generation
  • speaker
    that still smoked in bars.
  • speaker
    Oh, OK. Alright.
  • speaker
    OK, so you can remember this.
  • speaker
    Well this was certainly a time when
  • speaker
    people did and
  • speaker
    so walked in and here were all,
  • speaker
    here were all these guys
  • speaker
    in blue jeans, a blue work
  • speaker
    shirt, little Lennon glasses
  • speaker
    and kind of wild
  • speaker
    hair, all smoking and
  • speaker
    arguing. And this was the most
  • speaker
    remarkable moment when I said,
  • speaker
    holy cow.
  • speaker
    And, you know, there was no
  • speaker
    room at the table. I stood against
  • speaker
    the wall with some other guys and I
  • speaker
    said, just listened.
  • speaker
    And these guys were passionate,
  • speaker
    loud, funny, funny,
  • speaker
    you know, hysterical.
  • speaker
    And and
  • speaker
    I said, OK, guess what,
  • speaker
    this is family.
  • speaker
    I'd arrived.
  • speaker
    And so that's
  • speaker
    that was January of 70.
  • speaker
    So that's a long time ago.
  • speaker
    But.
  • speaker
    Sorry. Go ahead.
  • speaker
    Go on, go on.
  • speaker
    No, just just to say, once
  • speaker
    that happened,
  • speaker
    you know, things began to
  • speaker
    be clear
  • speaker
    in my own head, and
  • speaker
    after a short period
  • speaker
    of time, I came out to
  • speaker
    my parents probably.
  • speaker
    Probably within a couple of years,
  • speaker
    really talking more openly
  • speaker
    and openly with my siblings,
  • speaker
    two all of whom were
  • speaker
    were have been on
  • speaker
    board, have embraced
  • speaker
    the guys who have been in and out of
  • speaker
    my life, including my husband now
  • speaker
    of almost 22 years.
  • speaker
    So but
  • speaker
    the only the one thing I would say
  • speaker
    with respect to Dad and the church,
  • speaker
    in about 19, I
  • speaker
    came back to Albany in 1976
  • speaker
    from Boston and
  • speaker
    met a guy and lived
  • speaker
    with him and probably about
  • speaker
    1978 or 79.
  • speaker
    The First Pres was
  • speaker
    having discussions about gays
  • speaker
    in the church.
  • speaker
    OK, I don't know where that fit
  • speaker
    in terms of the national discussion.
  • speaker
    If it was late, it was on time.
  • speaker
    If it was early,
  • speaker
    I don't know. But the conversation
  • speaker
    was open.
  • speaker
    And here I came back to Albany
  • speaker
    and lived in the basement of the gay
  • speaker
    community center with my
  • speaker
    lover.
  • speaker
    And like, I kind
  • speaker
    of dragged my whole family out
  • speaker
    with me.
  • speaker
    They by necessity,
  • speaker
    I was visible.
  • speaker
    I spoke I was
  • speaker
    in the newspaper.
  • speaker
    I was on TV
  • speaker
    and bless everybody
  • speaker
    in my family for.
  • speaker
    Not blinking, but just
  • speaker
    going along, and I have no idea
  • speaker
    what any of them really
  • speaker
    I could ask my siblings of what you
  • speaker
    know they experienced or
  • speaker
    judgment, etc., but
  • speaker
    one day I was invited to go to the
  • speaker
    church, First Pres after
  • speaker
    the service and talk about being
  • speaker
    gay.
  • speaker
    And I got into a shouting
  • speaker
    match with one of the old members of
  • speaker
    the church and
  • speaker
    a kind of fury at
  • speaker
    the conservatism of,
  • speaker
    I would say not necessarily
  • speaker
    the whole church by any means.
  • speaker
    There were a couple of
  • speaker
    folks who were thoroughly entrenched
  • speaker
    in old views,
  • speaker
    but I
  • speaker
    could not argue, David, from a
  • speaker
    scriptural point of view,
  • speaker
    I could not say anything that
  • speaker
    was specific to the church
  • speaker
    and I
  • speaker
    was kind of winging it
  • speaker
    on the basis of
  • speaker
    this just isn't right what you're
  • speaker
    talking about, you know, how can you
  • speaker
    think this way?
  • speaker
    So I was coming from probably social
  • speaker
    justice and civil rights point
  • speaker
    of view as opposed to
  • speaker
    a religious point of view.
  • speaker
    And in retrospect, if
  • speaker
    I had been more
  • speaker
    thoughtful, I would have been able
  • speaker
    to have a conversation
  • speaker
    instead of
  • speaker
    just kind of
  • speaker
    saying saying some things
  • speaker
    and doing the best I could in the
  • speaker
    moment to talk to a different
  • speaker
    audience.
  • speaker
    I was this was an
  • speaker
    audience that even though they knew
  • speaker
    me, these were old
  • speaker
    friends and so forth.
  • speaker
    So maybe some of what I said was
  • speaker
    I was reaching them,
  • speaker
    but I wish I could have spoken
  • speaker
    the language of the church
  • speaker
    to them and presented
  • speaker
    an argument.
  • speaker
    And I didn't have that, so.
  • speaker
    I got louder.
  • speaker
    Yeah,
  • speaker
    I honestly, I think there are a
  • speaker
    lot of Presbyterians who would
  • speaker
    disagree with your assessment and
  • speaker
    say that the spirit is going
  • speaker
    to move you how the spirit moves
  • speaker
    you. Probably the people in Albany
  • speaker
    needed to hear, you know, righteous
  • speaker
    fury and frustration and anger.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    Entirely possible.
  • speaker
    You asked whether
  • speaker
    the kind of discernment that
  • speaker
    First Albany was going through in
  • speaker
    this was 78 when you.
  • speaker
    I'd say 78.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    Whether that was early or late.
  • speaker
    I mean,
  • speaker
    in truth, all of this is late.
  • speaker
    Like any recognition of
  • speaker
    our humanity comes too late.
  • speaker
    But the
  • speaker
    UPCUSA started
  • speaker
    a 19 member
  • speaker
    committee and I looked it
  • speaker
    up a second ago, committee to study
  • speaker
    homosexuality in
  • speaker
    1976.
  • speaker
    So First Albany beginning
  • speaker
    to engage
  • speaker
    with the national church's agenda
  • speaker
    by 77 is like.
  • speaker
    They got the news and they said
  • speaker
    alright.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    The tradition is how we do
  • speaker
    it, we just get together and talk
  • speaker
    about things and it's,
  • speaker
    you know, that's
  • speaker
    a remarkable story that they
  • speaker
    that you were available
  • speaker
    to them and willing
  • speaker
    to help them, kind of.
  • speaker
    You understand what was going
  • speaker
    on, made a
  • speaker
    little doubt in a way.
  • speaker
    I think I think David, oh you know
  • speaker
    they were.
  • speaker
    I'm glad you put it this way.
  • speaker
    I was but one moment
  • speaker
    in their self study.
  • speaker
    Right? So I'm
  • speaker
    sure that there was preparation
  • speaker
    for this kind of
  • speaker
    appearance.
  • speaker
    Right? That they had had
  • speaker
    conversations. They had had study
  • speaker
    groups, as you say, if the churches
  • speaker
    started that a couple of years
  • speaker
    before then, clearly
  • speaker
    they were involved in this
  • speaker
    as as well.
  • speaker
    And so mine
  • speaker
    was probably let's
  • speaker
    see if someone would be willing to
  • speaker
    come and tell the story.
  • speaker
    Oh guess what, it's the minister
  • speaker
    son. OK, and now
  • speaker
    and again, that was fine.
  • speaker
    And I never except
  • speaker
    for, as I'd say, a couple of folks,
  • speaker
    I felt totally embraced by the
  • speaker
    church, totally.
  • speaker
    These as I say, were friends.
  • speaker
    These were people whom I knew
  • speaker
    and I liked so much.
  • speaker
    And I think they were absolutely
  • speaker
    open. And what we learned is
  • speaker
    whatever they heard that particular
  • speaker
    day was just
  • speaker
    one more piece of information
  • speaker
    for them to assemble.
  • speaker
    And also, you know, what families
  • speaker
    they came from and who knows
  • speaker
    who in that crowd I was speaking to
  • speaker
    anyway, whose own
  • speaker
    story was
  • speaker
    ongoing.
  • speaker
    So but what was interesting, you
  • speaker
    know Dad became very
  • speaker
    much a supporter of
  • speaker
    issues and the issue,
  • speaker
    this issue in the church and
  • speaker
    my mother became involved
  • speaker
    with PFLAG right away.
  • speaker
    I mean, it was kind of at the
  • speaker
    beginning of that.
  • speaker
    And locally, she would say she would
  • speaker
    get calls from parents who said,
  • speaker
    what the hell is going on with my
  • speaker
    kid? And so
  • speaker
    Mother would talk to them
  • speaker
    even as she was trying to figure out
  • speaker
    what's going on with my kid.
  • speaker
    I
  • speaker
    wasn't a kid, I was 30, 31,
  • speaker
    but in any case,
  • speaker
    so yeah.
  • speaker
    So so
  • speaker
    you just mentioned your
  • speaker
    your father became kind of
  • speaker
    well you said he was obviously
  • speaker
    supportive of you, but also
  • speaker
    supportive of kind of
  • speaker
    gay liberation in the church, the
  • speaker
    struggle for ordination,
  • speaker
    equality, the struggle for marriage
  • speaker
    equality.
  • speaker
    Did that come up?
  • speaker
    I mean, I haven't read
  • speaker
    the records that you've given.
  • speaker
    Right.
  • speaker
    Right.
  • speaker
    Can you describe ways that that
  • speaker
    might have manifested in his
  • speaker
    ministry?
  • speaker
    To be perfectly honest, David, I
  • speaker
    can't I
  • speaker
    would have to go back and look at
  • speaker
    sermons that he might that
  • speaker
    he was you know preaching
  • speaker
    at the time in the 70s
  • speaker
    and the 80s, up until 92.
  • speaker
    When I send you a
  • speaker
    box, there's a whole
  • speaker
    packet of stuff that he has
  • speaker
    labeled homosexuality
  • speaker
    so and so that
  • speaker
    may contain some information,
  • speaker
    either in terms of conferences
  • speaker
    or studies
  • speaker
    and.
  • speaker
    Again, sermons I'm not entirely
  • speaker
    sure, so,
  • speaker
    I mean, that's something you know
  • speaker
    what I could. Well, let's see.
  • speaker
    I sent you a box.
  • speaker
    Maybe 10 days ago,
  • speaker
    would you say, did you get
  • speaker
    something?
  • speaker
    Oh, yeah, absolutely. And that's
  • speaker
    described and online.
  • speaker
    OK.
  • speaker
    So our description is up online.
  • speaker
    OK,
  • speaker
    so I guess I can't go to
  • speaker
    those particular sermons.
  • speaker
    I'm thinking if I have a few
  • speaker
    more sermons to
  • speaker
    from the 80s, I think to send
  • speaker
    you.
  • speaker
    The first batch is 1943
  • speaker
    to 1959.
  • speaker
    Right.
  • speaker
    Kind of early stuff.
  • speaker
    Right. That's right.
  • speaker
    And then you'll get as
  • speaker
    I think I indicated to the 60s,
  • speaker
    my brother has the 60s
  • speaker
    sermons.
  • speaker
    As I said, not not to keep
  • speaker
    but just to he wanted to look
  • speaker
    at them before he sent them
  • speaker
    away.
  • speaker
    So.
  • speaker
    Yeah okay,
  • speaker
    when those arrive, I'm definitely on
  • speaker
    the lookout for, you know.
  • speaker
    Absolutely and
  • speaker
    what you discover, let me know that
  • speaker
    would be you know that would be
  • speaker
    interesting.
  • speaker
    I don't know, David.
  • speaker
    Do you put these online
  • speaker
    or do you just say we have these
  • speaker
    sermons, come to Philadelphia and
  • speaker
    look what.
  • speaker
    I would say somewhere in between
  • speaker
    that. So our description
  • speaker
    goes up online immediately.
  • speaker
    So there's just a text description
  • speaker
    and that's designed to be
  • speaker
    publicly searchable and so that
  • speaker
    anybody who stumbles across that
  • speaker
    can say, I would like to
  • speaker
    digitize X or Y or Z.
  • speaker
    Oh, OK.
  • speaker
    So we're.
  • speaker
    In ordinary times, we're open to
  • speaker
    the public five days a week.
  • speaker
    Yeah, under pandemic conditions
  • speaker
    we're not, the lion's
  • speaker
    share of the work that we're doing
  • speaker
    is remote responses
  • speaker
    and digitization, really.
  • speaker
    But David so
  • speaker
    in other words, all of these
  • speaker
    sermons you wouldn't bother to
  • speaker
    digitize until
  • speaker
    someone actually says, I would like
  • speaker
    to see that. And is that
  • speaker
    the right idea, they're hardcopy?
  • speaker
    Either. Either researchers
  • speaker
    or really staff.
  • speaker
    I mean, we very frequently
  • speaker
    just flag stuff
  • speaker
    to just be digitized
  • speaker
    for for our purposes.
  • speaker
    To add to our digital collections.
  • speaker
    And, you know,
  • speaker
    your father's sermons or
  • speaker
    other writings regarding
  • speaker
    the Presbyterian, you know,
  • speaker
    new consciousness
  • speaker
    surrounding human sexuality.
  • speaker
    I think it's it's a given that we're
  • speaker
    going to get into that.
  • speaker
    Yeah. Yeah, sure.
  • speaker
    Well, that's interesting.
  • speaker
    I kind of wondered I said to Mark,
  • speaker
    I don't know if they have a place
  • speaker
    for all of this or then
  • speaker
    digitized, but it sounds like, as
  • speaker
    you said, maybe as on an
  • speaker
    individual basis or need to know
  • speaker
    basis, you might digitize something
  • speaker
    even as new archivists
  • speaker
    would say let me see what
  • speaker
    kind of thread there might be in
  • speaker
    terms of human
  • speaker
    sexuality in a
  • speaker
    series of sermons or what
  • speaker
    was happening in this person's
  • speaker
    sermons, in someone else's sermons?
  • speaker
    I don't know, but.
  • speaker
    Yeah, a hundred percent.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    Unification, you're
  • speaker
    going to get a bunch of stuff.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    Do you have do you have Randy
  • speaker
    Taylor's materials
  • speaker
    by any chance?
  • speaker
    I don't think we have personal
  • speaker
    papers from Randolph
  • speaker
    Taylor.
  • speaker
    But you know something
  • speaker
    about your father's kind of
  • speaker
    commitment to Presbyterian
  • speaker
    reunion.
  • speaker
    Yeah, well, I just I know
  • speaker
    and I found many photographs of Dad
  • speaker
    and Randy and I
  • speaker
    found some wonderful programs
  • speaker
    when in 83 things
  • speaker
    I think were cinched,
  • speaker
    if I'm not mistaken.
  • speaker
    Is that right? Yeah.
  • speaker
    And so you'll get those.
  • speaker
    I'm packing those up.
  • speaker
    But they developed a very
  • speaker
    warm relationship back
  • speaker
    and forth and
  • speaker
    my father would go down to
  • speaker
    Montreat where Randy and
  • speaker
    his wife lived and
  • speaker
    knew the family and
  • speaker
    they must have come up to Albany
  • speaker
    as well.
  • speaker
    So this this was a very personal
  • speaker
    and warm friendship.
  • speaker
    And clearly, they they
  • speaker
    had to do the hard work of
  • speaker
    bringing protocols and
  • speaker
    belief systems and reconciling,
  • speaker
    I'm sure, voices over
  • speaker
    their shoulders all the time saying
  • speaker
    do this or do that.
  • speaker
    But,
  • speaker
    yeah, Dad always spoke very
  • speaker
    warmly about that partnership.
  • speaker
    And so I know
  • speaker
    his name very
  • speaker
    well. But the particulars,
  • speaker
    not so much. But I just know that it
  • speaker
    was a long friendship, was a long
  • speaker
    time in coming, and
  • speaker
    they were glad.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    You know, you mentioned
  • speaker
    your dad over the course of his work
  • speaker
    kind of being
  • speaker
    away from the house or going to this
  • speaker
    meeting, that meeting.
  • speaker
    Did the family ever go
  • speaker
    with him to like like for General
  • speaker
    Assembly, where you guys at the
  • speaker
    General Assembly where he was
  • speaker
    moderator?
  • speaker
    No, I was
  • speaker
    no, my mother.
  • speaker
    Let's see, my
  • speaker
    mother must have traveled with him
  • speaker
    during that year when he was
  • speaker
    out and about now, we were all
  • speaker
    grown at the time.
  • speaker
    So we were off doing our own
  • speaker
    our own things.
  • speaker
    I was still in Boston and my sister
  • speaker
    was teaching and you know locally,
  • speaker
    etc.
  • speaker
    So Mother Mother did
  • speaker
    go with him yeah on on trips
  • speaker
    and was part of it
  • speaker
    because except for my
  • speaker
    brother Jim,
  • speaker
    who was 19 at the time,
  • speaker
    he too was off in college.
  • speaker
    So the point is that, yes,
  • speaker
    they did some of that.
  • speaker
    We didn't do that.
  • speaker
    Yeah, I suppose I was
  • speaker
    checking because I had this
  • speaker
    imagination that so the 1974
  • speaker
    General Assembly is
  • speaker
    remarkable to us and to other people
  • speaker
    close to us because
  • speaker
    it is at that
  • speaker
    assembly that a
  • speaker
    dude named David Sindt,
  • speaker
    who was a candidate for a ministry
  • speaker
    in Chicago.
  • speaker
    Held up a sign?
  • speaker
    Held up the sign, is anybody else out
  • speaker
    there gay?
  • speaker
    Yes, you mentioned that.
  • speaker
    And when I saw that I thought,
  • speaker
    God, who you know,
  • speaker
    I'd love to know that particular
  • speaker
    episode.
  • speaker
    In other words, did what happened
  • speaker
    to this, David?
  • speaker
    Yeah, well, we
  • speaker
    have there's an oral history that
  • speaker
    one of our other archivists Liz Wittrig did
  • speaker
    with a fellow named Barry
  • speaker
    Smith, whose close to
  • speaker
    David from his church, I believe.
  • speaker
    And we have
  • speaker
    an open real audio tape of
  • speaker
    David preaching,
  • speaker
    which I think is 69
  • speaker
    or 70, 1969 or 1970,
  • speaker
    and to be honest, I only know
  • speaker
    personally I only know that one
  • speaker
    vignette.
  • speaker
    I do know that
  • speaker
    he was not
  • speaker
    ultimately ordained.
  • speaker
    There were a number of other
  • speaker
    candidates in Chicago who were
  • speaker
    openly gay
  • speaker
    and who were not
  • speaker
    ordained. And that was kind of like
  • speaker
    a hotbed
  • speaker
    of Presbyterians
  • speaker
    attempts to just
  • speaker
    run somebody through the process
  • speaker
    to challenge the system.
  • speaker
    It's like the same
  • speaker
    way as
  • speaker
    when
  • speaker
    it's like a
  • speaker
    test of the system,
  • speaker
    because there's going to be judicial
  • speaker
    processes that follow
  • speaker
    that you have to attempt to do a
  • speaker
    thing before it gets litigated
  • speaker
    and you try
  • speaker
    polity.
  • speaker
    Right.
  • speaker
    And this denomination,
  • speaker
    it took until 2012
  • speaker
    to for this denomination
  • speaker
    to authorize
  • speaker
    ordination of
  • speaker
    gays and lesbians.
  • speaker
    2012?
  • speaker
    2012.
  • speaker
    And it was 2014
  • speaker
    before polity
  • speaker
    changed to
  • speaker
    permit gay marriage.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    So it's a.
  • speaker
    Long time.
  • speaker
    It's a very long struggle for
  • speaker
    Presbyterians like kind of growing
  • speaker
    up under those conditions,
  • speaker
    especially.
  • speaker
    Yeah. Yeah.
  • speaker
    And you know that's an interesting
  • speaker
    thing.
  • speaker
    Presbyterians growing up under
  • speaker
    those conditions.
  • speaker
    That's an interesting and
  • speaker
    correct way to put it, because
  • speaker
    clearly I saw
  • speaker
    as I was in early
  • speaker
    involvement with gay rights
  • speaker
    issues, you know, groups like
  • speaker
    Integrity and
  • speaker
    Dignity.
  • speaker
    And these were and I
  • speaker
    remember feeling
  • speaker
    I was not dismissive,
  • speaker
    but sometimes I really
  • speaker
    wanted to say to folks, why are you
  • speaker
    trying to reconcile these
  • speaker
    antiquated institutions with
  • speaker
    who you are?
  • speaker
    And and so I suppose I
  • speaker
    could have even said it about you
  • speaker
    know Presbyterianism, anybody.
  • speaker
    But there were people who sincerely
  • speaker
    wanted both.
  • speaker
    They wanted the life of
  • speaker
    the church and they wanted
  • speaker
    the life of that they were
  • speaker
    living.
  • speaker
    And so this was really
  • speaker
    you know something to marvel at
  • speaker
    people who really put themselves
  • speaker
    out there to join both, right?
  • speaker
    And as opposed
  • speaker
    to me at that point kind of lapsed.
  • speaker
    I was just feeling,
  • speaker
    oh, the hell with them.
  • speaker
    Who cares?
  • speaker
    Yeah, that's their problem.
  • speaker
    That's their problem. But that disrespects
  • speaker
    people of faith who said,
  • speaker
    no, this is we want to reconcile
  • speaker
    and we want to be a place that
  • speaker
    people come to and
  • speaker
    all people come to.
  • speaker
    So, you know, in retrospect,
  • speaker
    I admire the people who
  • speaker
    stayed with it to make the
  • speaker
    institution change.
  • speaker
    That's that would be a
  • speaker
    beautiful place to kind of
  • speaker
    conclude.
  • speaker
    OK.
  • speaker
    But I have one more thing to add,
  • speaker
    and one of the things that I was
  • speaker
    able to find in your
  • speaker
    dad's papers that I did
  • speaker
    kind of bring to light immediately
  • speaker
    because we don't do every job, we
  • speaker
    jot and tittle, right?
  • speaker
    We kind of
  • speaker
    do a broad description.
  • speaker
    You're too young to use the term jot
  • speaker
    and tittle.
  • speaker
    But
  • speaker
    you said this is what
  • speaker
    he called junior sermons.
  • speaker
    So sermons designed for
  • speaker
    the Sunday school class or like
  • speaker
    youth in the church.
  • speaker
    And there is there's one
  • speaker
    that is about
  • speaker
    appreciating yourself as you are,
  • speaker
    which is called the Saggy
  • speaker
    Baggy Elephant.
  • speaker
    And I don't know if you know that
  • speaker
    book.
  • speaker
    Yes.
  • speaker
    Yes. I can almost picture
  • speaker
    the pictures in it.
  • speaker
    Yes.
  • speaker
    Yeah, I, I was attracted
  • speaker
    to that because I have to.
  • speaker
    My son is eight and we
  • speaker
    read Saggy Baggy Elephant from when
  • speaker
    he was two years old.
  • speaker
    And so to see that kind of like
  • speaker
    in its original context of the
  • speaker
    50s.
  • speaker
    Right.
  • speaker
    You he's he's creating
  • speaker
    a sermon that is about.
  • speaker
    You know, of mutual
  • speaker
    love and respect and,
  • speaker
    the dignity of every
  • speaker
    individual, no
  • speaker
    matter whether their skin has
  • speaker
    like large folds and wrinkles.
  • speaker
    Absolutely. Now, David, I have to
  • speaker
    ask, was that a kind of
  • speaker
    serendipitous pulling out
  • speaker
    of the pile to say,
  • speaker
    you know, just let me see what was
  • speaker
    going on?
  • speaker
    I just flipped really quickly
  • speaker
    and said, wow.
  • speaker
    OK.
  • speaker
    That was the one that kind of came
  • speaker
    to light.
  • speaker
    Sure, sure.
  • speaker
    Yeah, yeah.
  • speaker
    Well,
  • speaker
    well, thank you, I,
  • speaker
    I thank you on behalf of my family
  • speaker
    and Dad and I wrote
  • speaker
    you very early on saying, I know
  • speaker
    that these were occasional pieces,
  • speaker
    but it's nice to know, too, that
  • speaker
    they may be of interest,
  • speaker
    to someone down the road.
  • speaker
    And they.
  • speaker
    They absolutely are they're going to
  • speaker
    be a, a really
  • speaker
    like a massive support
  • speaker
    to the other kinds of materials
  • speaker
    from other Presbyterian moderators.
  • speaker
    Great.
  • speaker
    Kind of fill in the continuum
  • speaker
    of records of the church.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    So we thank you for
  • speaker
    sending them to us.
  • speaker
    And I'm really looking forward
  • speaker
    to the next couple of tranches
  • speaker
    of sermons.
  • speaker
    Yes, you'll you'll get them
  • speaker
    as I construct
  • speaker
    the boxes and fill them.
  • speaker
    So.
  • speaker
    Thank you so much.
  • speaker
    It's so nice to meet you, David.
  • speaker
    Oh it's been a pleasure.
  • speaker
    OK, take care.
  • speaker
    We'll be in touch.
  • speaker
    OK, bye bye.
Details
Title

Paul Lamar oral history, 2021.

Description

Paul Lamar, the oldest son of UPCUSA moderator Robert C. Lamar, talks about his father's work and witness, and about growing up gay inside and outside the Presbyterian Church.

Creator

Lamar, Paul. (interviewee)
Staniunas, David. (interviewer)

Date

2021
February 18, 2021

Type of resource

moving image

Genre

oral histories
interviews

Form

born digital
video recordings

Extent

1 video file (mp4, 414MB)

Subject names

United Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A. General Assembly. Moderator (1974 : Lamar)
First Presbyterian Church (Albany, N.Y.)
Lamar, Paul--Interviews.
Lamar, Robert C.

Topics

Homosexuality--Religious aspects--United Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A.
Homosexuality--Religious aspects--Presbyterians.

Geographic subjects

North and Central America--United States--New York--Albany--Albany
United States.

Rights status

IN COPYRIGHT - NON-COMMERCIAL USE PERMITTED; http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/

Physical location

ARCHIVES 21-0216; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA

Related item

Paul Lamar oral history, 2021.--http://prestohost68.inmagic.com/Presto/content/Detail.aspx?ctID=Y2RiNWNk...

Identifier (local)

21_0216_Lamar

PID (Persistent Identifier)

islandora:175927

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