But anyway, it got into the hands of some of the Florida Cuban pastors and one of them wrote me a letter saying we would like to meet with you and discuss this.

And I was advised not to go out of my way to meet them because I think they felt that I had been brainwashed and misguided by me and I was honest about what I observed in comparison. Cuba in 1977. Cuba's illiteracy rate was lower than it was in the United States. And in contrast to the revolution when the revolution occurred it was just the opposite.

They have changed this over the years. But at that point there were Cuba had a great emphasis upon education and they had a billboard that says something like, this this is my translation in English, to have reached the sixth level is an achievement. And it was basic primary education.

That's what the implement was and they had all over the island their objectives or goals. And when I got back I asked my wife I said can you think of one goal that the United States has for its people in terms of something we can achieve.

She said what are you talking about? Then I told her. She said no, we don't have any such thing. But I was fascinated by the fact that their literacy rate was lower than ours.

Yeah yeah yeah.

Whenever you want to go I'll stop talking, rambling.

That's great. I'm going to go ahead. Today is June 27 of 2019. My name is David Staniunas. I'm records archivist at the Presbyterian Historical Society. I'm joined by Oscar McCloud. Oscar here is a long time friend of ours and we're here to talk about a 1977 trip that you made to Cuba. I'm hoping that you can give us a little bit of background to the trip, how the Program Agency identified that a trip to Cuba would be a priority.

Well this is interesting because until 1975 there had not been any contact between any representatives of the U.S. Presbyterian churches and the Presbyterian Church of Cuba. And that occurred in Nairobi when we held a dinner for the representatives of the press turned Reformed Church of Cuba and the PC(USA) and the United Presbyterian Church delegates. And it was there that I met several of the people who really became friends. Ofelia Ortega and Arce. Sergio Arce. So that was sort of the beginning of this. The opportunity in 77 was an ecumenical undertaking. It wasn't a Presbyterian church undertaking. There was a group called the Latin American, Latin American Council in the Latin American Association. It was an advocacy group that actually organized that trip. And it consisted of an Episcopalian, United Methodist, UCC. I think Jeremiah Wright a well-known pastor of Trinity Church in Chicago was in the group. The bishop of the United Methodist Church was in the group. And at that particular point the Cuban government supported such visits through a government sponsored agency called the Friendship Council or something because U.S. policies prohibited U.S. citizens spending U.S. money in Cuba. The Cuban government could get around that by once you got to Cuba they paid all the expenses. Hotel and transportation and everything. It was an opportunity to expose, pardon me, a group of American church leaders to life in Cuba and also to the Church in Cuba. The rhetoric at that time was that there were no Christians weren't allowed. Churches weren't allowed. Christians weren't allowed. And it was true that following the revolution a lot of the church properties were taken over by the government. Cubans of my age would have been, Presbyterians would have been educated in a school called The Progresivo.

Yes. Which was one of the most outstanding high schools in Cuba. It was taken over by the government. And this happened with Catholic properties as well. We found no evidence that they had taken over actual work or worshipping church facilities. So we were exposed to church churches to church groups. Actually our host hostess when we were there was Ofelia Ortega who was I think the first woman ordained by the Reformed Presbyterian Church of Cuba. She traveled with us all during the time as well as the government. The government had a tour agency that sponsored these groups so we had a government guide with us. A young woman. And so we traveled really all over Cuba from one side of the island one end of the island to the other. We met with all sorts of government officials. Education, health etc. as well as with church representatives. So I came away from Cuba with the kind of enlightened attitude about what I'd seen. I remember visiting the mental hospital, visiting with the director of a mental hospital there in Havana and we found no patients actually in bed. There were patients in the hospital but not in a bed.

And I was struck by the fact that I found no quote odor in the hospital and inquired of the director and he said the reason there is an odor in the hospital is because people allowed to stay in bed and their bedding is not changed.

He said the bedding here is changed every day so that every patient has to be gotten out of bed for some period of time. And the other thing he said that has stuck with me through all these years. He said if you want to test or measure a society's value look at what it does with the least productive member of society. People who cannot contribute anything and that that has really that has really stayed with me. So I came away from that trip, reported to the program agent to the staff and wrote as was the custom then a report of my observations about Cuba and it was that report that got into the hands of some of the Cuban Miami Cuban Presbyterians who wanted to have a meeting with me to discuss my naivete and my brainwash.

I think before we get to the Florida Cuban pastors you've shared with the Historical Society an audio recording of your verbal report back. I believe this was to the Program Agency board in 1977 and one of the things that struck me as interesting about that verbal report is the questions that you were asked. There seems to be in a couple of the questions less of a focus on the stuff that you talk about, education, health care, the fact that churches still were allowed to worship. There was an extreme emphasis on freedom of expression and freedom of dress, the way women wore their hair. And there's a question for you regarding your prior trip to Tanganyika where Julius Nyerere was conducting a different variety of socialism in that country. Can you talk more about that experience and the differences between the nation that later becomes Tanzania and Cuba?

Yeah well I have to confess that I spent a very brief period of time in Tanzania at that time. I think it was Tanzania then it was Tanganyika before. A very brief period there.

What I noticed in Cuba is that the people that we encountered were well-dressed but the only people we saw in uniforms were the kids in school. In Tanzania a lot of the men wore what was called, I guess that side of Tanzania, the Nyerere suit. Clothing. So it sort of looked as though they had a uniform on even though I don't think they called it a uniform. Didn't see any of this in terms of I didn't see any of this in terms of the schoolchildren in Tanzania. The other thing was and maybe it was more cultural than than the difference in the politics. The folk in Cuba seemed happier than the folk in Tanzania. I have to laugh for the fact that as with some other places in the world is that the the the enforcement of the policies of the government were probably done in a way in which the casual observer would not have noticed in Cuba. But I didn't see any evidence that there was freedom in either place of speech or the freedom of the press. The paper in Cuba was a government paper. There was a paper in, I mean in Tanzania that was allegedly not government but it was clearly government voice. In terms of what I remember about that. I don't recall that the Cuban government was as vocal about what they were attempting to do as was the case in Tanzania. Nyerere was really the voice and was very vocal about what he was attempting to do.

He's much more inspired by Mao.

Yeah that's right.

He has a strong Mao influence. In Cuba in 1977 you said the main newspaper of course is the dominant organ. Churches were churches prohibited from publishing? I mean was the seminary able to publish its organ at the time.

As far as I remember it was. There was no evidence from the people who at the seminary and at the church we spoke with that the government controlled. Here's the control that the government had. And this was true in Poland and other places. The government had the printing press.

Physically?

Yeah. The government did the printing for the institution. So in that sense you can say the government had control somewhat. But they had the theology and the New Testament and you know the biblical courses and church history courses just as any other seminary would have. A lot of their faculty was trained. Spent part of their time being trained in the United States. There was a Presbyterian missionary. The first name was Lois. I don't remember her last name. Female, single. When the revolution came, she was the United Presbyterian Church missionary, she chose to stay in Cuba and did for many many years until her health reached a point where her family convinced her to come back to the United States and she would come back on quote home visits and would talk about her work in ministry in the Church in Cuba. The one thing that I would say was that was observable is that the attendance at church was small. It was not there was no overflowing and part of this I think was driven by the fact that people who were in church and who identified clearly as being Christian didn't have the same kind of choice for university education and as the non-Christians did.

Some were into the university but it was it was evident they didn't have and certainly those who were going to go into the ministry did not, I mean they were probably the lowest entry level of college or university education.

When you went to Cuba in 77, correct me if I'm wrong, you said you met Sergio Arce. Can you tell me about your impressions of him?

He's very very bright. He was the ideolog. If that's the right word. He he had the ideology of the communist system and he was a Christian. I was convinced of this, he was clearly the most supportive person of the government that that I encountered.

He was really the key link between the Presbyterian Reformed Church of Cuba and the government.

Very nice person, actually someone whom I admired and counted on subsequent trips to Cuba and my daughter who is a lawyer went to Cuba about oh five or six years ago with a group of lawyers and I had a chance to meet him through my introduction.

Yes.

And one of the interesting things about and again I'm a baby in this discipline. One of the things that struck me about the 1959-1960 period of revolution is that there's a large number of possible ministers in Cuba who align themselves with the revolutionaries. Because the revolutionaries have a Popular Front. It's liberals all the way over to the far left communists and it's not until Castro announces that this is in fact a Marxist-Leninist revolution that a portion of those Protestant ministers departs and they leave the movement but there are others like Arce who really remain committed Marxists. That's interesting. At the same time did you meet Rafael Cepeda. Can you tell me about him?

Well I was far more impressed with Sergio. And the basis of that was he was much more outspoken. I think I had the impression that he was less the audient supporter of the government then Sergio was.

The thing that I surmised about the pastors is that it was not difficult for them to affirm the revolution when it started and first occurred because the revolution was advocating for the masses of the poor who really were under the pressure of the large corporations who controlled the land and in essence Cuba under Batista seem to have existed for the pleasure of a certain group of people from the United States, including the corporations. And so to talk about land reform and displacing these U.S. corporations is an understandable thing. I would've supported it too. But once the government was in place and really I think some of these pastors saw the evidence of the presence of a European some of the European countries with communist European communism present then they changed their their attitude.

Of course the other thing is the United States has a history of wanting to dictate what other countries do. I'll tell you one example and I can apply it to Cuba as well.

When Kwame Nkruman led Ghana into independence, he sought U.S. money to build the Akosombo Dam. Hydroelectric power. And we refused. He turned to the Italians and Italians built it with some communist funding. We didn't provide the kind of support for change in Cuba that we are now verbalizing in a sense for Venezuela.

It's the same story with Egypt throughout the non-alliance movement. You know Nasser really wanted the Aswan Dam built. Went to the United States. Told them no. Said fine I'll go to the Soviets that's fine too. Common reaction.

I'm not a historian and I'm not a political scientist. No I'm just a simple boy from rural Georgia but I think part of the thing about communism in Cuba in terms of U.S. it's really not about communism because if it were we wouldn't have the relationship we now have with Vietnam which is still communist or with China. Still communist. My view is Cuba is in our back door and Cuba pardon the expression kicked our butts. This little nation of 10-12000. Twelve million people.

And they said we will not been to the pressure of the United States. I had one of the friends that I met Ofelia Ortega say on that visit in 77 that if the United States wanted to change Cuba it would open, it would remove the sanctions, open up its arms, and say we love you. And she said Castro would collapse because Castro's strongest force with the Cuban people was the Yankees to the north. Big bad Yankees to the north. But we weren't smart enough as a government to figure that out.

Yeah I was gonna ask you about Ofelia. Essentially the same question can you tell me more about Ofelia Ortega? You mentioned she was the first ordained woman in the Presbyterian Reformed Church in Cuba.

She became a leader in the church. Seminary professor at Matanzas until a few years ago she retired. She and her husband.

Very ecumenical, very articulate. She became a representative.

She was elected to whatever the power of the legislature is in Havana and actually became quote the women's representative. That women went to her to make a case argument for their cause.

Very well respected both in Canada and in some Presbyterian circles here in the United States and in Europe.

She was at the World Council of Churches for a period but she was the one who made the statement about the U.S. and Castro. Yeah.

So what was the fruit of the 77 trip. I mean you know there's a background that says we should reestablish relations. And how did that progress in the 1980s?

Well I came back from Cuba believing that we would soon have diplomatic relations coinciding with that visit.

Carter was making thousands of altering U.S. policy. I don't recall what happened that sort of stopped him in his tracks. He did not go ahead with some of the easing of relationships that existed there but, pardon me I'm sorry. It was not immediate in terms of the the actions on part of the Presbyterian Church. The I have to say this the PC(US) really was not very eager to reestablish relationships.

The Southern church was not pushing hard.

No. The Southern church joined the effort in the 80s when we had a joint delegation go to Cuba where formally renewed relationships with the with the Reformed Presbyterian Church.

And that was the opener so to speak that I don't remember the exact year that Cuba connection started but that was the period when the relationship with Presbyters here began and multiplied so to speak. We invited as a result of the conversation in 75 we started inviting representatives from that church to our General Assembly and we had representatives from our church go to Cuba.

But it was not very easy either way. The trip that that first trip to Cuba we got our visas through Mexico. We flew to Mexico and got the visas there. Not in Washington. Yes. Which is interesting. Woman there in the consulate wanted to know why we didn't get the visas in Washington. And I think one of the people traveling with us saw the line and said well because we were told we could get him in Mexico since we had to travel. You could not travel than directly from the United States to Havana. You had to go through Mexico or through Canada.

We're going to pause here. OK. My batter may die so we may cut it short but we'll see how far we can get. So what do you think is most important for Presbyterians to know and understand about the Cuban people and the Cuban church?

The Cuban people have no problem with Americans. Their problem is with the U.S. government. The Cuban Church Presbyterian Church has no problem with America and of course they understand the past positions of the U.S. Presbyterian churches because you know we have to abide by the laws just as they have to provide and abide by the laws. They welcomed the efforts on the part of U.S. Presbyterians to renew the relationships and what some American Presbyterian have had to learn is that renewing the personal relationships was far more important than going there asking them what can we do.

What can we bring. What do you need. You know basically their response has been we need the relationship.

The fact that the government knows that we have, the Cuban government, that we have a relationship with Presbyterians in the United States is important to us. I don't want to use the word it's a source of a certain amount of security. I don't want to push that forward.

But it's important. I think the other thing that we as Presbyterians in the United States it would be helpful to the Cuban Church if we became aware of this is that our basic role is here in terms of working with our own government representatives to change the policies. That's really is what they would say is primary and ought to be the first priority of American Presbyterians.

An illustration is that Cubans could get all of their medical supplies for a fraction of the cost if they didn't have to import them from Canada or from Europe.

They can't even buy an aspirin. Couldn't that time at a moderate price because it has to be imported. The sanctions. The U.S. government seems to have a philosophy that sanctions that harm individuals will necessarily bring about a change in the government.

In some places yes. In other places no because the people interpret those as being one inhumane and that the U.S. government should know that it's not affecting the ruling class its effecting the masses of people. And the Cubans have demonstrated there in a way in which a lot of other countries have not. Their genius that survived even. The cars that you see on the streets for the most part in Cuba, they haven't spent their money to import a lot of cars from Europe. They have found ways to repair a 1949 Ford or a 1950 Chevy you know kind of thing that that clearly American made cars. The other thing is governments are capitalist, socialist, communist, dictatorial, dictators.

The masses of people are not necessarily that you know. And that's true applying to our own country. There are a lot a lot of us who we may benefit from capitalism. But if you ask individual Americans are you a capitalist? And you describe what that means, they would say no I'm not. Just as you ask some people if they are socialist and you describe what it is or communist, they would say no I'm not. So. So I think it's a it's a it's an educational and I applaud the, Dean in his team's effort and work he's done. I'm sorry that his health has necessitated his concluding that Cuban connection but the one thing has resulted from that are the Cuban partnerships, the churches, and the presbyteries. And that's a sizable group. It's amazing how that has grown over the years.

It was interesting to me that you mentioned that the Cubans said that relationships with the church were of greater significance than just parachuting in, doing a three day mission trip, material needs kind of focus because other members of the Cuban partners network say exactly the same. Some of them came to mission and in the course of working with the Cuban people realized that that mission was mutual. Yeah. Yeah. That it was about building relationships and then learning about yourself what you could do back home in your own territory.

And we've grown a little bit over the decades in that.

I remember when our church had relationships with the Presbyterian Church of East Africa in Kenya and we were sending missionaries. And the Presbyterian Church of East Africa said well we'd like to send the missionary to you. Well some of our responses, not of the agencies but of some of our constituents, was what is that? We don't need your people as missionaries. What would they do? And the basic answer came to be they will help you to understand. They would do some teaching. You'll have a chance to learn from them. And I remember the first missionary couple that came from Kenya went out somewhere in the northwest and they basically were teaching and helping American Presbyterians to understand Christians in another culture.

Now one of the other things David that I learned through this process is that we think it's all right to be supportive of our government government policies but we don't think that's appropriate for people in countries with whom we as a nation have difficult differences with. I learned that from the Chinese fom a visit to China back in 1981. Chinese Christian said, Do you love the United States? I said, Of course I love it. Why can't we love China? It's our country.

Why is that inconsistent with being a Christian?

There was another oh gosh.

I think it's a statement by the Protestant Church in East Germany written in the 70s where they identify that the mission of the church is not to do its work outside of socialism.

It's not to do it against socialism but the work of the church given the particular context in which the church lives is to be the church within socialism. I know many people wiser than me have written about that but I I wonder if you have any thoughts about what that means or how that kind of ministry occurs and how it would be distinct from the church within capitalism which is even a structure that we don't even think saying out loud.

We don't.

Well I would start with the fact that there are things in our own society as a Christian where there are limitations. When when we say that we have freedom of worship, freedom of speech there are some limitations.

We can't do animal sacrifice as part of our worship. You know.

Bigamy for example is prohibited. It was a religious practice.

Yeah, bigamy. It was a religious practice and it was all right in that religion. So that's where we start. And we have learned how we have not gotten there yet. I should qualify. We've learned more about how to live out our faith within those confinements.

Christians in other societies if if you're in if you're in society in Latin America in the 1960s, 70s with a dictator you have one kind of limitation.

You may be free to worship but you're not free to operate schools because the government's position is that education is a government function. Or if you're in Poland, you build a cathedral for worship but you cannot take that out on the street. So there is a certain amount of cultural or societal influence on the way in Christians in the way in which Christians worship.

And we are being dishonest if we do not acknowledge that that's evident in the scriptures.

In the societies within that the Bible texts were written women had a different kind of role. In the Old Testament even more so you know. So we need to I think learn a little bit more about how we adjust.