Margaret Jerrido oral history.

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    Take off my archives, smile.
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    Today is the 27th of September 2016.
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    My name is David Staniunas and this is an interview of Margaret Jerrido,
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    archivist and archives consultant and first chair of the Delaware Valley Archivists
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    Group, we're in the archives of Mother Bethel
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    AME in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
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    How are you? Good, thank you.
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    Did you watch the debate last night? I did.
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    Well, some of it some of it was watching me, but yeah, I did see some of
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    it. I did not. I waited for Twitter this morning to tell me how to feel.
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    So I.
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    I haven't researched your biography extensively, so that's my mistake.
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    Are you born and raised in Philadelphia?
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    Yes. Born and raised in Philadelphia and went to school in Philadelphia.
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    And where did you go to school?
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    I went to Temple for undergraduate and then I went
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    to Drexel for a master's in library science.
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    What sort of led you into a career in archives?
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    I started working in a library branch of the free library
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    when I was about 14, 15, I guess, really loved.
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    Well, I always like to read my mom, you know, had lots of books around.
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    And I was one of my Christmas gifts was a book of some kind.
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    And just to get a little spending cash, you know,
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    my mom got me working papers for the kid to be 14 to get working papers
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    at that time. And she says, well, where would you like
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    to work? And I said, well, I think I'd like to work in the library.
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    And that's what I did in the children's section.
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    Then I got then from there on, I just continued
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    to work in some kind of a library and I went from there to
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    what library did I go to where the Muda Museum is and work in
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    that library.
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    And then from there I went to the medical
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    college in Pennsylvania and worked there for 20 years, I guess.
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    And that's where I met Frank Miller, who
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    was at that time the archivist at Temple University,
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    Fred Miller.
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    Was he organized the urban archives?
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    Yes. I'm over here betraying my ignorance.
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    No, no, no, no, no, no. He actually was,
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    I guess, hired by the Urban Studies Department
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    at Temple University to collect
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    information about Philadelphia.
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    And that's how the Urban Archives, I guess, was created,
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    formed.
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    And so from from MCP, you began work at the
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    Urban Archives.
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    Yes. And then from from MCP.
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    Fred was promoted, I guess is the word he thought it was
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    to win any grant reviewer in D.C.
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    So his position became open and he strongly
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    encouraged me to, you know, apply for it.
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    And I said, oh, OK.
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    And so I applied and got the job.
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    So what year was this?
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    Oh, good question. Nineteen
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    must have been 1990, 1990.
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    And your title at that point was head of
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    the Urban Archives and
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    sort of the core of the collections from the like
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    1967 and 1990 period.
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    Those were labor archives to begin with.
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    The AFL-CIO collection. Yes.
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    What were some of the first collections that you
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    went out and tried to bring in with collection development like?
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    Well, from the labor collections, which of course, Fred
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    brought in, we expanded to community organizations,
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    which is became a strength. So we collected
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    groups of materials such as the local NAACP.
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    Just these are just local groups now,
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    the Mount Airy Learning Tree and
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    other collections similar.
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    But they just had to be related to Philadelphia and be organized
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    by an executive director or something like that.
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    But the organization had to be based in Philadelphia.
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    And so what were some of the nuts and bolts of doing that?
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    I mean, would you would you enter a place you had connections
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    in the community?
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    Would you make house calls and invade basements
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    and.
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    Yes, yes. To all of the above. OK,
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    I was never one to be dressed in dresses and heels and things
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    like that that just did not apply to the job.
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    Not at all. And that was fine with me.
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    So, yes, I don my jeans and whenever I came into work looking like that,
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    they'd say, oh, she's going out on it on a visit.
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    So yeah, I did.
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    I went to people's homes, went to basements of,
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    you know, any kind of organization, if indeed they were so lucky to have
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    a place to put their stuff.
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    But most of the time it was the executive director or the head of the organization.
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    That's where the materials were usually kept in somebody's home, in a basement or the
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    attic and.
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    When it comes to having connections, I guess the
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    word sort of spreads around like a disease, you know, it's just sort of spreads and they
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    all say, oh, gee, I understand that Temple Urban Archives is collecting
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    materials that I, you know, maybe fit with your collecting policy.
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    No, they didn't exactly say collecting policy, but, you know, may fit in with your
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    collection. And so that's that's really how it really got started.
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    Once they knew when somebody knew that we were collecting that kind of material,
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    then they would just say, well, you know, Margaret Gerardo at the Temple University
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    archives, they're collecting things like that.
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    And as I said, that just sort of spread that way, which was good for me.
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    And you really have to go out and bang on too many doors and say, you know, I want your
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    stuff. They sort of just came to me, which was good.
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    Do you have any any favorites, anything greatest hits as far as collections go,
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    dare I say, the Delaware Valley archivist group Presbyterian.
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    You know, that collection is there. I really should have went there, you know, because
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    when you come to the part where you're going to ask me, when did we begin?
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    I had to think about that. I say, oh, God, when did we begin?
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    And who were the members? The beginning members.
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    I don't remember all the beginning. Remember, this is awful, but the the
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    archives will have it. You so so that's one of my favorites.
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    That's my next trip actually to go to temple this year.
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    We need to do some work.
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    Yeah. Yeah.
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    They have a lot of the materials that I collected
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    as well as materials for some of the other chairs.
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    So they should be there.
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    But you asked me some of my favorites. There's the Pennsylvania Mandi's Council, you
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    know, and as I said, the NAACP
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    local chapter.
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    And then there were also collections of individuals.
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    And those individuals just happened to be the directors
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    or the executive director of a particular organization.
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    Not necessarily did we have the organizational records, but we had the individuals
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    collection, which was just as good some time
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    on Divac.
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    So per our website, the organization is created
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    in nineteen eighty. Yeah.
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    Could you tell me a little about the, the sort of origin story.
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    And yeah I was working at the medical college in Pennsylvania and
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    Fred Miller came by and this
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    was like this I guess it would be seven or eight years after
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    Maric was formed because they were formed in 72 and I
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    was there when they were formed.
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    But Fred came by and said, you know, not everybody
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    can really afford to go to the regional
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    meetings. We really need to have something that's a little more local for those,
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    because at that time, these were just all small mom and pop shops.
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    We're not talking about the universities. You know, even though I was at the medical
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    college in Pennsylvania, it was still a small place, a small archives.
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    And Fred was saying, you know, we really need to have something that will allow
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    those of us who are in the area to go around and visit other
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    places and see what they're doing and how they're, you know, how they're making out,
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    because we were all struggling at that time. I mean, you know, mind you, this is 1980,
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    1892 that it's like 30, 40 years ago.
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    And I said, I'm not a bad idea.
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    He says, what do you think about he's talking to me.
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    And Sandra Chaffe, CHF was
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    the director of the archives at the Medical College in Pennsylvania.
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    And I just, you know, was one of the staff members at that time
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    in the archives.
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    And so he was talking to the both of us and he was saying,
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    why don't we just call some other people and see if they would mind
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    a meeting? And we actually met at the Historical Society, Pennsylvania, and I'm
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    almost sure these following people were there.
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    Bob Plowman.
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    Myself and Sandra Chaffe.
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    Peter Parker.
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    Beth Carroll Horrocks, I think.
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    Mark Lloyd from University of Penn
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    and I know on.
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    I know I'm missing some people, but because even though the room wasn't crowded,
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    there are a number of people there.
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    I think of them, you know, send them to you.
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    That's not bad for thirty five years, but I know that
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    they were there and so we were there and we said, well, here we
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    are.
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    Excuse me. Here we are.
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    What do we want of this group?
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    And so that's when Fred said, well, I really think that talking to
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    the group, not just to me, that we really need to
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    visit other places and if they need
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    help, we can help them in whatever way we can,
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    you know, with resources.
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    We never had any money, but, you know, maybe suggestions or
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    anything that would give them a little hand up.
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    And we said, well, that doesn't sound like a bad
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    thing.
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    You know, it would allow people to
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    actually see, you know, what the shopping looks like, you know what the staffing
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    is. And as I said, most of the time, most of these archives at that time were
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    run by one one and a half, if you're lucky, two people
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    at the medical college. We were fortunate to have Sandy and myself.
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    And then there was another part time person who worked there.
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    So we were kind of rich in terms of having, you know, assistance and help.
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    And we didn't meet their first, though.
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    We actually, as I said initially at the Historical site in Pennsylvania,
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    and I think we actually met there first as a group
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    and then we haggled over what are we going to call ourselves.
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    You know, the usual thing about, oh, what should this group be and what
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    are our goals and should there be a fee, you know,
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    membership fee and if so, how much?
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    Nobody can afford this amount of money.
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    And, oh, it was your first meeting was pretty long, but we finally came away
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    with some suggestions of names.
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    And then finally we decided on the Delaware Valley Archivists Group because we didn't
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    want to only include Philadelphia, but other small
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    outside of Philadelphia groups, because Bob Plummer was actually
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    from and of course, this was his push.
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    He was from the Delaware County archivist archives.
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    And so he was outside of the Philadelphia area.
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    And he says, well, we just can't make it the Philadelphia group.
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    We have to, you know, broaden broaden the term.
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    And that's sort of how we came up with the Delaware Valley Archivists Group.
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    What are we going to do? Well, we can go to the other
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    repositories and see how they are being run.
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    And then while we're there, we just going to have a tour
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    or we're going to have milk and cookies, you know, snacks.
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    And then but initially all we did was really just went to other repositories
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    to see what they were like and who was there.
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    And then it kind of blossomed and, you know, went to wine and cheese.
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    And in addition to the tours, you know,
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    and then, of course, you know, the guest lecturers, that kind of thing.
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    So they said this is at the first meeting.
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    Who's going to be chair of this, Fred?
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    So they looked at me and I said, oh, no, not me.
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    Why not? Says he.
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    I said, oh, OK.
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    Sandy was really too busy in the archives, you know, with the Medical College of
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    Pennsylvania. And so she bowed
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    out. You know, I said, I really don't really have the time.
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    I said, I don't know either. But anyway, so I said, sure.
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    So there I was. Yeah.
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    And at that point, did you have the same kind of
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    chair, vice chair model that we currently know?
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    OK, so you would have served for two years?
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    I knew. Well, you know, no, it was just for one year and then it was after
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    my term that they decided they really need to have something like a chair,
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    vice chair. Because to tell you the truth, I know there was a chair
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    for me and then there was a secretary and a treasurer, that was it.
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    I mean, we didn't have any kind of a membership coordinator or anything like that.
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    It was nothing like that.
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    But after that, after my term, they said, well, you know, who's going to step aside?
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    We're going to do this and who's going to step in for that for the next year.
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    And that's when we actually put together some sort of a ballot.
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    I mean, the first time was you're doing this and you're doing this, you know, with that
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    kind of thing, there's no ballots.
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    But after you know, after a year, I knew I couldn't do any more, you know,
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    time wise, because I was also director of the Blackman Physicians
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    Project at that time. And so I was literally traveling around,
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    you know, talking to various women physicians throughout
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    the United States, literally. That was really a I think that was really the best
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    time of my career.
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    I would say I should say that because I really had good time since then.
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    But it was there the opportunity to go out and
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    talk to older African-American women physicians
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    about their experiences. And that was just phenomenal.
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    But anyway, I'm getting off the track here.
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    I was going to move along into precisely that.
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    That was the one thing that I managed to do some research.
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    OK, yeah, that was really an
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    experience that I wish a lot of people had an opportunity to do
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    to to listen to these women who the criteria was.
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    You had to be a certain age, so you had to be over 70 for me to come out and talk with
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    you, because, again, mind you, this is the
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    1990s. So you can imagine how long what
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    it what it was for African-Americans to even go into the medical field.
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    So if they were 70 at that time and they went to medical school.
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    So we're talking like 40 years prior to that.
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    So it was just.
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    Some of the stories that are on those tapes are just phenomenal,
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    and I hope people are using them as a research tool nowadays because it has
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    to be a good place to start.
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    For researchers, yes.
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    So this is an extension of
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    the Black Women Physicians Project that you started at Medical College in Pennsylvania
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    in 77, 78.
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    And so that's developed in the 90s with
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    a grant funding, with grant funding.
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    And it became an oral history project. I see.
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    Sure was. Now, there was a person there.
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    Oh, goodness. And I am really blanking out on her name, Ruth, that
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    said they Sandrich have.
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    And I'm sorry, I really can't think
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    of her last name, but they put together Women in Medicine
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    book.
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    And from that, really, the
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    Black Women's Issues Project was an outgrowth of that.
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    And that's when they got funding to do this.
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    So that I was able to travel around and, you know, actually take this
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    big clunky, you know, machine.
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    Yeah, much smaller, much bigger than that to do the oral histories.
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    So, yeah, that was an algorithm. Yeah.
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    How far how far flung did you travel?
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    Oh, I went to New Orleans.
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    California didn't go to much to the Midwest.
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    They just didn't settle there.
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    African-American women at that time.
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    I didn't go there plenty in the South Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia
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    didn't go to Tennessee, didn't go to Texas.
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    But, you know.
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    California to, of course, you know, places like
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    New Jersey and obviously Philadelphia here and as
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    far north, let's see, didn't get to Washington State.
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    Isn't that something didn't go too very far, far north either.
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    And then, of course, definitely in the south, who was
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    who was the oldest among the women?
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    I guess it might have been.
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    Dr. Moorhead, and it was right here in Philadelphia,
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    she initially started she was about 82,
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    83.
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    But was Dr. Dickins older?
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    Oh, dear. You know what, Helen of Dickens, I believe she may have been
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    a little older.
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    Helen Moorehead was a school physician, one of the early
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    earliest school physicians where they were, where they when they actually
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    had physicians in schools. Now you can barely get a nurse.
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    But she was actually rotated
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    around Philadelphia schools.
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    And I believe she was younger than Dr. Heleno Dickens.
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    Dr. Heleno Dickens was one of the first
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    African-American women physicians at the University of Penn, and she brought
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    in the program of Planned Parenthood.
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    Great woman.
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    I know her daughter real well, Jane.
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    She's a physician as well.
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    But I think Dr. Dickens was about 86, 87
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    at that time.
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    I know she's been dead quite a few years, but
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    it was it was a wonderful it was a wonderful project.
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    I enjoyed it. Where did the grant funding for it come from?
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    You know, I didn't write the grant.
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    That doesn't answer your question.
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    I, I think it was a
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    Appu Foundation grant.
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    Yeah.
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    I'm not real sure about that.
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    It wasn't much money. You know, they they didn't give a lot of money for it.
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    But I'm pretty sure with Pew and these oral histories are
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    housed at, uh, well now they're, you know,
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    MCP gobbled up by Hannaman.
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    So I do believe they're at Hahnemann.
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    And Hanmin, of course, has a lot in archives.
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    Hahnemann had a really good archivist and I don't think she's
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    there anymore. Barbara Williams was her name and she was the archivist
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    there for many, many, many, many years.
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    And I think she was still there when Honeyman took
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    over MCP.
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    So I think that's where they are. I think that the archives.
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    So you've worked with a lot of archivists.
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    You've met a lot of different people. Yeah.
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    I wanted to ask about the sort of
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    taking up personality inventory of the archival profession.
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    Do you think there are things in our emotional toolkit
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    that we need in order to be good archivists?
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    Or is there something that as a class
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    we lack and need to work on?
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    Well, now that the whole world has become a profession,
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    a real profession, because
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    in the 70s and 80s, even though
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    Historical materials have always been around, there's always been a caretaker of those
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    Historical materials.
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    I think at that time in the 70s and 80s, we were just
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    considered just that, just caretakers
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    and and not like a librarian.
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    You know, librarians always seem to have had the
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    status because they were they were librarians, for heaven's
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    sakes. And they had libraries, schools.
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    They didn't have walkable schools.
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    I went through a class that Fred Miller
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    developed, and I was fortunate enough, as I said,
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    to know Fred Miller. And he offered it as a as a one of the classes
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    through Drexel University so that I was able to take the class at
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    Temple under him.
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    But that, to me, was the first real structured
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    class for archivists to attend New York.
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    Of course, you know, has there there school, you know
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    or. Well, I guess you have a it's not a course.
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    It's actually a curriculum.
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    And of course, Drexel did, too, for a while.
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    I don't know that they still do. I don't know that they still offer give specific
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    archives. OK, they do. OK, see, that just goes to show.
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    I don't keep up with that. But anyway, and it developed, you know, at
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    Drexel so that it became the classes became bigger and bigger, which
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    is a good thing. Our curriculum became bigger, which is a good thing but.
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    Archivists have never traveled down the same route as the librarian.
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    You know, we may do some of the same things, but we don't cross paths
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    because of the different different ideals
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    from the librarian. They're very structured.
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    Archive is a kind of Lucy Goosey people, that's what I call it.
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    But to answer your question directly, I think that to me,
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    an archivist needs to be a very personable person because
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    we, unlike librarians, deal with the books.
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    We actually do deal with people.
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    I mean, we have to go out and talk to them and be
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    nice to them. Otherwise you may not get the collection.
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    So I think really one of the things that archivists really need
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    to have is a good personality and to be able to listen
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    like you're doing, which is very good, to be able to listen to somebody and,
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    uh, but then be convincing that.
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    I want something from you, and we really
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    need this because it's going to be good.
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    Down the line for some other people, librarians don't necessarily have to do that.
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    You know, as I say, they just deal with a lot of books and, you know, they check in and
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    check out whether it's a stamp or on the computer.
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    We don't do any of that. You know, we don't check in and check out once we get it.
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    It's it it's there. You know, we don't, you know, allow things to go out.
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    So I think the key thing to me is that an archivist really does need to be
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    very personable.
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    That's interesting because the sort of
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    there's a lot of ferment surrounding the so-called future
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    of the future of libraries and libraries, lending out suits
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    and ties and libraries, putting out musical instruments and stuff the free library
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    is doing really, really in that regard.
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    So it seems more right now like librarians
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    are sort of cracking that mold, the kind
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    of check in check out thing.
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    And I ask about archivists personalities because it's a
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    it's a hobby horse, my own. Oh, we have a lot of personality tests
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    at my institution. We have tons of personnel records.
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    And I always like to see the kinds of people who get drawn into a into a particular
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    discipline. You talked about the kind of professional divide
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    between librarians and archivists.
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    You see that persisting now or do you see that see any changes
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    in.
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    Oh, no regard? No, I do see change.
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    As I said, you can see that the archival world is becoming
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    a strong profession, just like the librarianship, which is
  • speaker
    the way it should be. I mean, we've worked just as hard as they do and we should be
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    given the same opportunities as they have
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    and not have to struggle so much.
  • speaker
    I think archivists still have to struggle.
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    For instance, I think of being a university archivist
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    while I was not a university archivist, that's something different.
  • speaker
    When you're a university archivist, you're collecting the university stuff.
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    But when you're a small collection within a university,
  • speaker
    we always had to battle and fight to get even a budget.
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    And librarians don't have to do that.
  • speaker
    They just automatically get a budget. And I never thought that was quite fair,
  • speaker
    but whatever.
  • speaker
    But I think particularly within the university setting,
  • speaker
    the the powers to be know that
  • speaker
    archives are an important tool, which means that an archivist
  • speaker
    is just as important as the library itself, because all
  • speaker
    well, to my knowledge, most archives within a university are
  • speaker
    in the library setting, always in the basement.
  • speaker
    But who cares?
  • speaker
    And so that's a good thing. So that's a good thing, you know, sometimes.
  • speaker
    But when it came to the budget, it was always the librarian who got the bigger
  • speaker
    chunk when it came to the department as the archives, because we were never
  • speaker
    a separate entity. We were always a department within the library.
  • speaker
    Let me here I do believe that, as I said, they are recognizing the fact that a
  • speaker
    research institute or a research department within a university is a very important
  • speaker
    department and they are recognizing that and giving more attention
  • speaker
    to an archives.
  • speaker
    Now when it comes to historical societies and
  • speaker
    smaller groups there still to me, I think they're still struggling.
  • speaker
    But there are things and and help,
  • speaker
    such as NASAA, you know, Maric and
  • speaker
    the dbag groups, which can help these smaller groups
  • speaker
    to figure out what they need to do and how they can do it.
  • speaker
    I think I have one more question that's it's been terrific.
  • speaker
    So another another one of my personal hobbyhorses is archival ethics.
  • speaker
    I'm right now on essay's committee on ethics,
  • speaker
    but which is a treat.
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    The SO say I went through a revision of
  • speaker
    the Code of Ethics in 2012 and established a set of core values
  • speaker
    in addition to the ethics which are like the core values or the
  • speaker
    lofty goals and ethics, are the boots on the ground instructions.
  • speaker
    There's a National Archives Code of ethics written in the 50s,
  • speaker
    like designed for the staff of the National Archives.
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    And I think the first sentence is that is archivists have a duty
  • speaker
    to Society and SSA has never
  • speaker
    embraced that. Really what's interesting to
  • speaker
    me personally and do you have thoughts about how an archivist
  • speaker
    discharges her duty to Society?
  • speaker
    Boy, he really caught me off guard here.
  • speaker
    I you know, I don't know how I could be truthful with you.
  • speaker
    Do we have a duty?
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    And I suppose we do as an archivist.
  • speaker
    I think we.
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    We need to make the public aware
  • speaker
    of the necessity of having.
  • speaker
    Research materials or materials for research use.
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    That's the way I want to see that.
  • speaker
    And so I think it's our duty to
  • speaker
    toot our own horn and say this is what we're here
  • speaker
    for and we're here for you so that our
  • speaker
    legacy or the legacy of anything can be
  • speaker
    around for future use.
  • speaker
    I think that's the way to answer that.
  • speaker
    I think probably you've answered it just in talking about work
  • speaker
    at the urban archives, going and seeking out materials from folks who are
  • speaker
    from community organizations doing work.
  • speaker
    Yeah, exactly. The city.
  • speaker
    Yeah. It's like working here.
  • speaker
    I've been here eight years, I guess.
  • speaker
    Well, the CPS child has been hired came that came into a week, so
  • speaker
    not quite eight years.
  • speaker
    And it's it's a great.
  • speaker
    It's a great archives.
  • speaker
    It was fortunate prior to me there was a group of
  • speaker
    of concerned peak members who wanted to make sure that
  • speaker
    everybody knew that Mother Bethel Church had some Historical materials.
  • speaker
    And Ruby Boit was the, bless her heart,
  • speaker
    a librarian that was she still alive?
  • speaker
    She's 96, I think.
  • speaker
    But she collected materials.
  • speaker
    And I actually came here on a grant in the 90s to help.
  • speaker
    Developed the formally developed the archives, and he had things in boxes and things, and
  • speaker
    so they got money from the Pennsylvania Humanities
  • speaker
    Council to bring me on board for a short while to instruct
  • speaker
    them on how they should be organizing, what sort of supplies
  • speaker
    should they have, that kind of thing.
  • speaker
    And then, of course, she got Ruby got sick and
  • speaker
    is in a nursing home right now.
  • speaker
    And I when Reverend Tyler came on board, he says, oh, I understand
  • speaker
    you're retired.
  • speaker
    And I said, yes.
  • speaker
    He says, well, wouldn't you like to come and help?
  • speaker
    With the archives, I said, oh, sure, and I really was happy to do that and
  • speaker
    I knew what a great archives this was.
  • speaker
    But to get back to sort of your question here about ethics,
  • speaker
    I know it was hard for people to turn over materials
  • speaker
    to the archives here.
  • speaker
    And I and you have to
  • speaker
    convince the membership here that
  • speaker
    it's important that you don't keep the materials in your home,
  • speaker
    that it should be housed
  • speaker
    in a safe place.
  • speaker
    Well, my house is saved my to walk through my doors.
  • speaker
    Well, not the same thing as being stuck in boxes and things.
  • speaker
    So you really have to really talk to the people here.
  • speaker
    And I'll tell you this, African-Americans are very reluctant to turn
  • speaker
    over their Historical materials.
  • speaker
    No matter where you want to go, they have to be able to trust you.
  • speaker
    And and you have to make sure that
  • speaker
    you are trustworthy.
  • speaker
    So I've been able to convince some of the senior members here to turn over some of their
  • speaker
    Historical materials, which is the reason why now we've got a pretty, pretty decent
  • speaker
    collection now.
  • speaker
    But again, that that's what an archivist needs to do,
  • speaker
    is to go out and be able to talk to people and be able to bring that material
  • speaker
    in so that it can be saved for future use.
  • speaker
    We build on trust. Absolutely.
  • speaker
    I think another thing and in addition to being personable, you had to be trustworthy
  • speaker
    and the donor or the person you're talking with needs to
  • speaker
    know and see that and understand that.
  • speaker
    Well, that's great.
  • speaker
    Thank you. Quite welcome. Thank you very much for doing this.
  • speaker
    This is the will I get a copy of.
  • speaker
    We're going to publish it. OK, yeah.
  • speaker
    Good. All right.

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