Chris Paige oral history, 2019.

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So this is Elizabeth Wittrig,
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interviewing Chris Paige
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on January 24th, 2019.
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Chris, if you just want to go ahead
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and start off by telling us when and
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where you were born.
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I was born in Lansing, Michigan, at
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Sparrow Hospital
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in November of 1971.
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And can you talk about some of
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your experiences growing up, what
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your family dynamics were like?
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I'm a I'm an only child, so
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that tells you something.
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And.
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I was born into.
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Let's see.
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It's so open ended.
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That's great.
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I was an only child and we
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went to church regularly.
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I was baptized in the Christian
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Reformed Church there in Lansing
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and eventually
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went to school at Lansing Christian
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School, which was a private
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Christian school
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in that area. There's a lot of
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Dutch and Christian Reformed
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influence.
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The Christian Reformed
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Church headquarters is in
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Grand Rapids, and my mom's side
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of the family was
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had landed there.
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Mom went to Calvin.
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And so there was
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that was a lot of sort of the
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connection that we had to the church
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in Michigan was
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Christian Reformed Church kinds
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of stuff.
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And so after
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fifth grade, we moved to Louisiana.
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And in Louisiana, there's not
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that many Dutch people and there's
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not that many Christian Reformed
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people.
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And so we ended up joining a
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Presbyterian U.S.A.
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church. And I remember the
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the debut of the new logo that
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I guess in hindsight was about
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reunification.
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If I have my facts right.
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So I, I did confirmation
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at Slidell Presbyterian Church
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in Slidell, Louisiana,
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which is just north of New Orleans.
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At the time, it was a very
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metropolitan kind of area because
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folks were they built
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the external tank for the space
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shuttle in that in that area.
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My mom worked for the computer
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center associated with the building
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of the external tank.
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And so a lot of people were coming
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from around the country.
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Slidell was really kind of booming
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at that time.
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And, you know, so at
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that sort of puberty level, I
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started to be interested in Jesus,
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had a good youth group, went
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to Montreat, was feeling
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really well connected.
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And then the space shuttle
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Challenger exploded
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on national television,
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and the booming of the external
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tank building ceased.
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And my mom wasn't expecting
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to be laid off, but a lot of people
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were. And it was definitely not.
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I mean, she was going have to pick
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up a lot of slack from other folk.
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So at that point,
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she began looking for work.
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And so like literally I came back
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from Montreat where I had this, you
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know, amazing, of course, very
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Presbyterian, but amazing
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youth group experience and was
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reading the Bible in the new way and
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was feeling connected to youth group
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community.
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And I came home, they said, we're
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moving to Northern Virginia
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for Mom to take a new job.
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And that really kind of was a
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hit to the gut.
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I mean, we had we literally said
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Slidell will be your home town, like
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sort of, you know, you were born in
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Michigan, but you'll grow up in
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Slidell and that's what you'll
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know as your hometown.
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And the the transition to
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Northern Virginia was was rough.
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I didn't connect as well at the
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suburban Presbyterian Church
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that we started attending, in youth
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group cliques or like whatever it
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was like it wasn't anything horrible
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or horror story.
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I just didn't connect.
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How old were you?
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When we.
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Let's see. When we moved to Northern
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Virginia, I must've been about
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14.
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I was going into my sophomore
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year in high school,
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and so I had three years
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in Oakton,
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Virginia, Vienna, Virginia,
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at Oakton High School,
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during which time I became an
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agnostic.
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I was like, God, if you're out
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there, I know you understand
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that I just want to be real with
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you. And I don't know if you exist,
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you know, like this was the kind of
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conversation
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that I had.
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And so Dad's side of the, Dad had
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grown up Catholic
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and he had I remember
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it was it was a big deal for my
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mom's mom from my Dutch
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Reformed grandmother.
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Right.
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Didn't like, was concerned about
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the Baptist parts of the in-laws,
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was concerned about the Catholic
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parts of the in-laws.
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And that sort of, in hindsight gives
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me some insight into like how
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how volatile those denominational
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differences were.
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Even just a generation before
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that, we kind of almost forget about
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these days,
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but Dad essentially converted to
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being Protestant at least,
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and over time, you know, was
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so involved in the Presbyterian
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Church to be on session.
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And actually
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was a
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policy advocate.
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What do you call it?
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Oh, man, my vocab, my
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Presbyterian vocabulary is a little
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bit tried right now.
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The proposals
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that we bring to General Assembly.
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Overture advocate?
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Overture. He was an overture advocate
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at least one year
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around gay and lesbian stuff.
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So he had quite his own
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journey of of making the tradition
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his own.
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So I went to college again in
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basically Northern Virginia,
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Fredericksburg at Mary Washington
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College, which is now called the
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University of Mary Washington.
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I find that a little bit
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pretentious, but I'm sure they had
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good reasons.
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I was very happy with it being a
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college
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at the time.
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I played basketball from
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junior high up through college, so
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that was also part of what I was
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doing, at a Division three
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school playing basketball.
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I triple majored.
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I started out with math and computer
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science.
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My mom had become a
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computer programmer, a database
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analyst back when it was like
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you couldn't study that in college,
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right? Like you would learn it on
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the job. And that's what they took.
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She was a math major and learned
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COBOL at the Lansing Board of
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Water and Light.
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In the seventies when you just
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learned it on the job, you know, she
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went from doing payroll
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to learning COBOL
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and something like 40 years later,
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helped them shut down the COBOL
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system to move into Oracle
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or something. So.
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So I grew up with,
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you know, I guess genes in math and
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computer science and experience
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with. So I went to college doing
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math and computer science, as
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an agnostic and before
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classes had even started,
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I met
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a girl.
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I hadn't dated much through
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high school. I mean, a little bit in
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junior high, but like literally high
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school.
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I didn't go to proms or
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like that I
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didn't really have a reason why.
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I didn't have an identity label
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about why I didn't
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continue with things that boys and
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girls do in high school.
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But it didn't resonate
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with me.
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But a few days before classes
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started in college, there was this
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girl, and we.
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She became my best friend.
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I'm going to leave her name off of
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it.
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She had been a Southern Baptist
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missionary already
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by the time and
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did some more mission work
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summers and even a semester over
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time.
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And
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I fell in love.
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We fell in love.
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It was complicated.
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I you know,
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after the first semester,
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I was I knew that I was
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attracted to her and I knew that
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she was Southern Baptist.
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And it just didn't seem like
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it would make sense.
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And I started drinking more
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at that point. And, you know,
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athletes aren't supposed to drink,
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but there's do and,
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you know, so there's, I sort of went
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in that direction.
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I guess this is awkward.
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I don't care about my story being
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told. She probably cares about her
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story being told, but
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we did end up having a
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relationship.
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I maintain that she kissed me
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because I never would have kissed
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her, but she maintained that I
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kissed her.
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So who knows what happens when
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closeted queer people
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try to figure out their histories
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in relationship within,
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especially, a religious context.
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In any case, I started
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going to the Baptist Student Union
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because this person I was
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really attracted to and involved
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with went there and there was
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food. And
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when you when you're in college, you
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know, the people you like eating
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together like is all you need.
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It doesn't matter if you don't
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believe in God too much.
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And and it
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was interesting. I'm still not a
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Baptist. You know, there are certain
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songs I can sing that are very
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Baptist that I know from in
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part from attending
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large Baptist churches in
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southern Virginia,
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not even just Fredericksburg, but
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going home to visit her family and
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weekends. And, you know,
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I we we
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we were I will say we were we were
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family. Whatever else you might
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qualify about the relationship.
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She stayed sometimes with my parents
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during the summer when I wasn't
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there, I visited with her family
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after her wedding, when
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she wasn't there.
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You know, we we became family in
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some sense of the word.
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And had you talked to your parents
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at all about your sexuality before?
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No, I didn't
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start coming out to anyone
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until the fifth year of my
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five years in college.
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So this was a
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solid four years
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of not talking to anybody about
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this relationship.
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We
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we we
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ended up becoming roommates
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sophomore year.
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By the fourth year, we were sharing
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a house with two other people off
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campus, fourth and fifth year.
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And so,
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you know, I really
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you know, some people say, oh, you
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know, when I say she married a man
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later, you know, after college,
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and some
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people say, well, she was clearly
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closeted and didn't reconcile
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it, make up stories about her.
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And I'm like, no, I know that the
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intimacy of our emotional
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intimacy changed when she
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met this guy and started dating him.
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Like, I know that our relationship
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changed.
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And and so I really do believe
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she fell in love with this other
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guy. And,
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you know, blessings on her for
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the life that she's made with him.
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But, you know, it was a kind of
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twisted,
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unhealthy, closeted
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friendship slash relationship.
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You know, we lived together and we
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ended up doing laundry together and
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buying groceries together.
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And, you know, like there's just a
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lot of intimacy, whether you're
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physically involved or not that
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happens. And so
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so it was kind of a complicated time
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in terms of my sexuality
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that had emotional outcomes
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with anxiety.
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You know, what do you do with all these
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emotions if you're not allowed to or
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able to express them?
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So there are some mental health kind
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of challenges that came up in that,
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sometimes involved drinking
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to sedate that.
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But but meanwhile, I
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had started attending the Baptist
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Student Union and I was like, this
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God thing, there's something here
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that I'm missing.
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And I'm not a Baptist, but there's
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something here that I'm missing.
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And so there was an ecumenical
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campus ministry called the
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Campus Christian Community.
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CCC was the initials,
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and we went over there one time.
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I said, Let me go try this not
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Baptist thing.
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And I remember
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arguing about archetypes.
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I thought they were stereotypes.
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Like I didn't understand what
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archetypes were because it's college
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and you're learning things with this
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guy. And I remember being in the
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living room of that house and just
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arguing about this.
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And I was so sure and he was so
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sure. And long term he was right.
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But like, I was like, this is a
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place where people can ask questions
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and whatever that thing that's
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missing is here too.
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But like where I can bring my entire
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brain to the conversation
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in a way that I didn't experience at
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the Baptist Student Union, that it
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wasn't as critical thinking
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oriented as it was.
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And so
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first, you know, I spent a year
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being involved, then I was the
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newsletter editor and then I was the
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president of the Student
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Council for the Ecumenical
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Campus Ministry.
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And so there was this coming back
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to to religion,
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coming back to Christianity,
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making the tradition my own in a
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fresh way. What does Trinity mean to
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me? What does Incarnation
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mean to me?
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What does resurrection mean to me?
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Lots of reading while
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all that was happening,
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and by the end of
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that five year I spent five years in
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college.
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I had mono my sophomore year, so I
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stayed to get my fourth year of
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eligibility for basketball
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and ended up adding a third major of
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religion. So I did a full
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math, computer science and religion
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in five years and my
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advisor convinced me not to add
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classics because that would be
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silly.
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But I almost had the classics degree
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by the time I took Latin for my
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foreign language anyway.
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So.
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So by the end of college,
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I had started
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to come out to a few friends, like
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the number you can count on your
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fingers, like including my high
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school basketball coach.
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And I hadn't.
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I don't think I had told my parents
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yet.
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No, I hadn't told my parents yet.
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And I should ask them if they knew
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about this relationship, like the
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nature of the relationship in
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hindsight
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or not.
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You know, I, I think I
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and we believed that it was this
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very carefully kept secret,
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but I think it was probably more
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obvious than we realized.
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So my best friend from high school
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when I wrote the coming out letter,
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I am a lesbian.
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I don't know if you knew.
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She was like, Well, it's about time.
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Like, that was her totally.
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Her response was like, Thanks for
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telling me.
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Thanks for getting around to letting
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me in on what was
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so obvious.
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So I just I find
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those, those dynamics
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to be kind of hilarious
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but intriguing when we think about a
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different decade
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and a different generation of how
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scary it was to
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come out and how
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much anticipation of judgment
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even from those, you know,
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folks that were like, Yeah, well,
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duh.
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But it's still quite scary.
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So meanwhile,
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there was this organization called
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The Other Side Magazine
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that was published out of
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Philadelphia.
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But the director's wife
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was a sociology professor at my
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college at Mary Washington,
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and so they had an office in
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Fredericksburg.
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Two or three doors down from the
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campus ministry house.
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And they, that spring of my last
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year, sent out a letter saying,
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we're looking for volunteers in our
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Fredericksburg office.
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And I think it was just like, we're
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going to throw this against the wall
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and see if it sticks kind of
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local outreach.
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And I responded
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and after a couple of, you
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know, visits
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to their, you know, their office
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in their house, they said,
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you know, we have this job opening
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in Philadelphia.
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You should really apply.
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And I went back the next week and
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they said, you know, you should
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really apply for this job opening.
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And so I did.
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And I ended up getting this job as
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assistant publisher of The Other
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Side Magazine.
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I, I had intended to do
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my previous plan was to do
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a volunteer and mission program
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and had been looking at that.
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And so the the almost
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nonexistent salary that was offered
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at this nonprofit was, you know,
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better than a volunteer and mission
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program would have been.
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And I thought, let me spend a couple
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of years working.
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I wanted to be in the real world in
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some fashion before going to
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seminary.
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I felt called to campus ministry.
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And so let me do this real world
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experience with The Other Side
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Magazine.
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Well, that lasted about ten years.
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I long, long term
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realized that seminary was not for
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me, especially in the nineties.
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I didn't want to go to seminary and
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fight with people about
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verses around sexuality or
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I didn't want to train, you know,
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train the people who are supposed to
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be training me about how to treat me
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well.
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And at first it was like, not right
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now. And eventually it became like,
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No, I'm just not going to do this.
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The Other Side was an ecumenical
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publication.
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It closed in I think 2004.
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I left in 2003.
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And and it was an extraordinary
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educational experience.
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So I didn't go to seminary, but I
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was, you know,
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working with folk
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with Virginia Mollenkott and Irene
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Monroe and with the Berrigans.
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And, you know, so I was exposed to
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Mennonites and Peace Churches
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Quakers, Catholic workers,
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kind of the best.
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You know, it was a multi issue
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magazine founded by white
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folk who wanted to deal with racism
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in 1965, but
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expanded and, you know,
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published
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Christianity and Homosexuality
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Special Issue in like 1978.
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So, like really early grappling
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with sexuality and the church
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kind of issues.
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One of my elders is John Linscheid,
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who was a key gay,
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cisgender gay man in the middle
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of The Other Side's history
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and did some important writing
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at the time was Mennonite, defrocked
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Mennonite pastor.
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And so like that just it it
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broadened my horizons in a lot of
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ways about what justice means.
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What does Christianity, Christian
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tradition, what are some of the
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resources in Christian tradition
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around justice?
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And meanwhile, you know, in those
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years I was originally
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still grappling with like, what?
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What about my call to ministry?
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And I started
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when I moved to Philadelphia, I
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started attending Tabernacle United
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Church, which is Presbyterian,
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PC(USA), and UCC.
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At the time it was the only More
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Light church in the state of
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Pennsylvania, so
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it wasn't hard for me to figure out
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where to start. And I
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settled in there
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and they
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invited me to preach my first sermon
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and ordained me as an elder.
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In my twenties, I'd have to do the
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math to figure out how old I was.
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And so I served on
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council, a session there is called
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council with the two
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denominational kind of polity
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and
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was following Janie Spahr
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around anywhere
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I could drive to, you know, from
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Bethlehem in Allentown,
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Pennsylvania, down to Richmond,
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Virginia, I would drive and of
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course, conferences as well.
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I joke that she's my homiletics
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professor because I once saw
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her preach the same sermon in three
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different places to three different
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audiences, and sort of watching
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how she adapted
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it just a little bit to make more
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sense to this mostly gay
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audience or this mostly
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student population, or this
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church that was considering being
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More Light and and,
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you know, she'd be like, Oh, there's
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Chris, you know, like she would see
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me at the events and
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and so, so yeah.
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I very much consider Janie
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Spahr, one of my elders, especially
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in my Presbyterian lineage.
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In 1996, I went to
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the General Assembly in Albuquerque,
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to basically see what the
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Presbyterian Church had to say to
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me. I graduated from college in 94,
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so I had been getting connected at
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the local level.
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I was an elder so to ten Presbytery
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meetings,
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and that was the year I think they
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passed Fidelity and Chastity.
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And we, we marched in protest.
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Uh, and.
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You know, was exposed to and
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connected to more
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of the national leadership.
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I think Laurene Lafontaine, Howard
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Warren was still alive then.
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Scott Anderson,
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Janie, of course,
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and I kind of heard what the
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Presbyterian Church had to say to
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me. And they said, We're not really
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not interested in you.
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And I when that overture
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came to the Presbytery of
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Philadelphia, I remember
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sitting with Roger Harless, who
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my best understanding is he
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defrocked himself from Presbyterian
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pastor-hood.
speaker
I remember sitting next to Roger
speaker
Harless
speaker
at the Presbytery of Philadelphia
speaker
meeting, and they and they passed
speaker
this overture. They ratified
speaker
this overture.
speaker
And then they wanted us to stand and
speaker
sing They'll Know We Are Christians
speaker
By Our Love.
speaker
And it and it felt like
speaker
it didn't feel loving.
speaker
It felt like this military march,
speaker
and they'll know we.
speaker
Like it just felt.
speaker
I mean, it's kind of like it's not
speaker
such a Presbyterian song.
speaker
It's, you know,
speaker
Presbyterians are better with organ
speaker
music, and that's not really a
speaker
thing. So it like maybe that's part
speaker
of it. But it just felt heavy
speaker
like it felt like they were trying
speaker
to make us happy about
speaker
this thing that was really ugly.
speaker
And certainly for me and my
speaker
experience was, was ugly.
speaker
And I don't think I went back to
speaker
another Presbytery meeting until
speaker
I was accompanying a pastor that we
speaker
were calling to Tabernacle through
speaker
committee on ministry and so forth.
speaker
So that was really a turning point
speaker
for me and my relationship with the
speaker
Presbyterian Church.
speaker
And the
speaker
Tabernacle is is
speaker
also UCC.
speaker
And so I was technically both a
speaker
member of the Presbyterian Church
speaker
and the United Church of Christ, and
speaker
Nancy Crotty, who's a lesbian elder
speaker
in UCC land,
speaker
who's local, she wasn't at
speaker
Tabernacle, but she was local and
speaker
from from early on, however
speaker
we met. I'm not sure how we met.
speaker
Maybe I went to a UCC coalition
speaker
gathering locally.
speaker
She kind of adopted me as a baby
speaker
dike and she was like, You know,
speaker
you're UCC too.
speaker
She would remind me.
speaker
I'm like, No, I'm really
speaker
Presbyterian.
speaker
And you know, the Reformed tradition
speaker
was really important to me and
speaker
education and creeds and writing
speaker
things down and constitutional
speaker
government like these were all like
speaker
values that I had
speaker
internalized, for better or worse.
speaker
And she's like, Just remember,
speaker
you're also United Church of Christ.
speaker
And that's been a fascinating
speaker
journey.
speaker
Long story short,
speaker
uh, as I grew
speaker
older, there
speaker
was a point at which Tabernacle
speaker
stopped being
speaker
a challenge to me.
speaker
Right? It stopped challenging the
speaker
growing, challenging me where my
speaker
growing edges were.
speaker
And I continue to love and adore
speaker
that congregation still means the
speaker
world to me.
speaker
Figuring out church membership is
speaker
hard for me because like I never
speaker
wanted to leave Tabernacle, but
speaker
I wanted to be challenged to grow
speaker
at the edges of my faith journey.
speaker
And so now I'm a member of Living
speaker
Water United Church of Christ,
speaker
which is a predominantly African
speaker
American congregation
speaker
that was founded in an inclusive
speaker
way.
speaker
And and I'm treasurer there,
speaker
and I'm not sure that my
speaker
a letter to transfer my membership
speaker
has actually happened.
speaker
So I may technically be on the books
speaker
of both congregations, which
speaker
is in some ways, it's not
speaker
decent and in order, but in some
speaker
ways it's okay with me
speaker
and represents where my heart is,
speaker
both both places.
speaker
And so for me, being
speaker
at Living Water is in part
speaker
like wanting to be more connected to
speaker
a spirituality that's not still
speaker
stuck in my head.
speaker
I mean, I really do come from the
speaker
frozen chosen, like Christian
speaker
Reformed Church. Even more than
speaker
Presbyterian is very stiff.
speaker
And I grew up with the Psalter
speaker
hymnal where the the music
speaker
is organized according
speaker
to the the Psalms.
speaker
You know, hymn number one is based
speaker
on Psalm number one.
speaker
And I think they've gotten over
speaker
that. But like I come from
speaker
like really organized people
speaker
and you wouldn't want to have pictures
speaker
to distract you from worshiping
speaker
God.
speaker
And so for me, being connected to my
speaker
body, being
speaker
physically embodied in worship,
speaker
audibly, you know, not silent, not
speaker
holding back emotions
speaker
like that's part of that growing
speaker
edge that
speaker
I, you know, that Living
speaker
Water gives to me,
speaker
supports me in a way that's
speaker
different than Tabernacle could
speaker
in a more predominantly white, still
speaker
diverse, but predominantly white
speaker
tradition.
speaker
Yeah. So that's kind of how I
speaker
landed, where I am.
speaker
I left out a lot of parts along
speaker
the way, but.
speaker
But that's really where my Christian
speaker
journey has, um,
speaker
has taken me through the years
speaker
and I don't actually identify as
speaker
Christian anymore.
speaker
I still identify as a witness to the
speaker
resurrection.
speaker
That story
speaker
has a hold on my life.
speaker
And for, for better or worse,
speaker
whether I like it or not, like
speaker
that's a story that means something
speaker
to me
speaker
and has changed my life.
speaker
And so I identify as a witness to
speaker
the resurrection,
speaker
and I identify as an animist,
speaker
which which is kind
speaker
of a fuzzy term, especially
speaker
for doctrinaire kind of folk who
speaker
want to know exactly what things
speaker
mean.
speaker
So that's part of my growing edge as
speaker
well, but it's really about
speaker
relationships.
speaker
And so maybe I'm a Christian
speaker
animist. I don't know how I feel
speaker
about that.
speaker
The animist part is more important
speaker
to me now, but of course I worship
speaker
regularly in a Christian
speaker
congregation,
speaker
but in a congregation that's very
speaker
relational, right?
speaker
That really Black church tradition
speaker
is much more relational than white
speaker
church tradition typically
speaker
is.
speaker
And so it really matters about being
speaker
together with these people and being
speaker
in community, being in a
speaker
relationship with the rocks
speaker
and the stones and the trees, being
speaker
in relationship with the ancestors
speaker
and the OtherWise
speaker
and with the universe
speaker
or creator or whatever
speaker
words we want to say for all
speaker
of things.
speaker
And so I really kind of bridge
speaker
what's typically considered more of
speaker
a pagan perspective
speaker
and a pretty traditional Christian
speaker
Sunday morning experience
speaker
in, in Black church kind of way.
speaker
Um, so it's,
speaker
I'm a colleague of mine,
speaker
Louis Mitchell talks about
speaker
trans folk being holy hybrids.
speaker
And I really, I really embody,
speaker
I really reflect that term
speaker
being a holy hybrid, bringing
speaker
different traditions
speaker
together, being influenced by
speaker
multiple Christian traditions, being
speaker
influenced especially as a
speaker
multi-faith organizer by different
speaker
religious traditions and
speaker
perspectives,
speaker
and somehow trying to bring those
speaker
together in my life and lived
speaker
experience.
speaker
And you've been I mean, this
speaker
is going to be a broad question,
speaker
but you've been an advocate for so
speaker
many religious
speaker
groups advocating for LGBTQIA+
speaker
rights, but you've also worked some
speaker
with secular organizations.
speaker
Can you speak at all the where
speaker
you've kind of seen those two
speaker
movements overlap
speaker
and find common ground or where
speaker
that's been very how you've
speaker
kind of maybe brought religion in a
speaker
more secular settings?
speaker
Right.
speaker
Well, I've I've ended up focusing
speaker
really a lot more on the religion
speaker
side. So LGBT
speaker
organizing on average
speaker
tends to be a secular world
speaker
because the religious right did such
speaker
a good job of defining the terms of
speaker
the argument
speaker
early on and
speaker
and because there's so much
speaker
religious abuse.
speaker
And so a lot of folks say
speaker
it was harder for me to come out as
speaker
Christian than it was
speaker
for me to come out as queer or
speaker
trans.
speaker
And so there are some real tensions
speaker
within secular LGBT
speaker
organizing about what's
speaker
the proper place of religion.
speaker
How do we deal with the abuse?
speaker
How do we deal with some
speaker
folk who are very actively
speaker
religious or spiritual?
speaker
Other folks were very actively
speaker
non-theistic, have experienced
speaker
abuse from religion.
speaker
How do we really hold in tension how
speaker
important it is for some
speaker
of us and how hard it is for some of
speaker
us?
speaker
Some of us both, right?
speaker
Hard for us and important to us.
speaker
So it's it's a complicated
speaker
intersection.
speaker
I feel like things have changed in
speaker
the last decade or so
speaker
as LGBT
speaker
organizing.
speaker
And I have to say,
speaker
the role of people of color bring
speaker
in the movement changes that.
speaker
So I feel like white folk tend to be
speaker
on average gross generalizations,
speaker
more iconoclastic, like if you're
speaker
going to reject religion, you're
speaker
going to reject it entirely.
speaker
Whereas many people
speaker
of color come from not just Black
speaker
church traditions, but African
speaker
diaspora traditions, Native
speaker
traditions,
speaker
and and have been able to bring
speaker
a different kind of spirituality
speaker
that's not so iconoclastic,
speaker
even if it's Christian, it's not
speaker
the same kind of Christian
speaker
in tone or tenor or intent.
speaker
And so, how do we nurture
speaker
resilience?
speaker
How do we nurture resistance?
speaker
Of course Black church traditions
speaker
have centuries of
speaker
experience, right, in
speaker
resisting white supremacy.
speaker
And so there's this
speaker
marvelous in my experience,
speaker
I've learned so much.
speaker
And I always feel like I want to
speaker
credit my people of
speaker
color, elders and
speaker
prophets and friends and colleagues
speaker
who have taught me more right about
speaker
being present to spirit in
speaker
a different way, being
speaker
present to those conflicts
speaker
in a different way.
speaker
And I'm still on a learning journey
speaker
through that. But but I feel like
speaker
the movement LGBT organizing
speaker
has it's much more complicated
speaker
now because we have lots of factions
speaker
within LGBT organizing,
speaker
but there's certainly a stronger and
speaker
more visible
speaker
and I should mostly say more
speaker
visible, right? Because it's always
speaker
been there
speaker
but is more visible in the
speaker
mainstream or social media
speaker
and all the ways that we interact
speaker
now in a different way.
speaker
And so, you know, I came
speaker
up in
speaker
right Presbyterians for Lesbian and
speaker
Gay Concerns
speaker
was my people initially
speaker
and
speaker
Christian Lesbians Out connected me
speaker
to a range of
speaker
lesbian feminist radical
speaker
justice seeking women.
speaker
And so that was a little bit broader
speaker
community ecumenically.
speaker
And so I certainly count in my
speaker
lineage folk who have influenced
speaker
me, folk like Virginia Mollenkott or
speaker
Carter Heyward, Beverly Harrison
speaker
and the CLOUT women who I
speaker
got to know through those
speaker
conferences.
speaker
And really
speaker
important, Melanie Morrison,
speaker
who's become a mentor.
speaker
I did anti-racism training with her
speaker
and really appreciate the ways that
speaker
she brings whiteness
speaker
and anti-racism work to
speaker
the conversation as an openly
speaker
lesbian, UCC pastor
speaker
or clergy woman.
speaker
And so, so this is like,
speaker
again, something that I wrestled
speaker
with in my holy hybridness.
speaker
And so there's just like Tabernacle
speaker
couldn't quite help me grow
speaker
once I reached a certain point of
speaker
fullness in myself that I wanted to
speaker
continue to grow, and they weren't
speaker
weren't at that edge.
speaker
It was like my white Christian
speaker
folk who made me who I am in so
speaker
many ways
speaker
and helped me come out of shame and
speaker
internalized homophobia and these
speaker
kinds of things.
speaker
I began pushing
speaker
an edge that they didn't quite have.
speaker
And that it makes for a complicated
speaker
way for me,
speaker
thinking about my lineage.
speaker
So part of what happened
speaker
in 1998,
speaker
I started looking at my gender
speaker
identity.
speaker
It was actually through a women's
speaker
group at Tabernacle that I
speaker
co-founded, and we were talking
speaker
about shadow work.
speaker
And I realized that my shadow
speaker
wasn't my masculine side, it was
speaker
my feminine side, my drag persona,
speaker
that when I dress up in a dress, it
speaker
was kind of shadow work for
speaker
me and made me feel a little
speaker
uncomfortable and a little excited.
speaker
And I was like,
speaker
if if dressing up in a dress,
speaker
in the bridesmaid's dress from this
speaker
first girlfriend's wedding,
speaker
if that makes me feel kind of funny
speaker
like that, what does that mean about
speaker
who I am when I'm not doing shadow
speaker
work?
speaker
And
speaker
and so I started looking at this
speaker
gender thing and ended up creating a
speaker
website called Trans Faith Online, a
speaker
little free Angelfire website.
speaker
With what I was able to gather, I
speaker
reached out to these LGBT
speaker
organizations to Integrity and UCC
speaker
Coalition and More Light and
speaker
Reconciling and was like, Where's
speaker
the gender stuff?
speaker
Who do I talk to?
speaker
What are the books?
speaker
You know, where are the articles?
speaker
And they were all like to the degree
speaker
that they responded.
speaker
They were like, we don't know any
speaker
trans people and we don't have any
speaker
resources.
speaker
And it seems that they had just
speaker
added transgender to their mission
speaker
statement. I mean, well-meaning,
speaker
adding to their mission statement
speaker
and names
speaker
because funders started to require
speaker
it and because this
speaker
was a topic that was starting to
speaker
come up. But it wasn't because they
speaker
had experience or knew people.
speaker
At the time Erin Swenson,
speaker
who had sustained her ordination in
speaker
the Atlanta Presbytery
speaker
as a Presbyterian clergy person,
speaker
was kind of the only
speaker
openly trans
speaker
religious leader that was out there.
speaker
Kate Bornstein and Leslie Feinberg
speaker
were really important authors in the
speaker
nineties.
speaker
They weren't explicitly religious,
speaker
although they both have Jewish and
speaker
Kate had a Scientology background.
speaker
But just as sort of that radical
speaker
resistance kind of spirituality
speaker
and acknowledging our ancestors kind
speaker
of thing. So what I
speaker
what I was able to find from folk on
speaker
the Internet, I put on
speaker
to this little website
speaker
and and the next year I
speaker
got married.
speaker
It was a commitment ceremony because
speaker
women weren't able to get married
speaker
at that time in U.S.
speaker
history in 2000.
speaker
And so this trans faith website kind
speaker
of got set aside a little bit.
speaker
I had connected with folks.
speaker
I had figured out that I identified
speaker
as trans, identified as OtherWise,
speaker
which is otherwise with a capital
speaker
W in the middle of it,
speaker
non-binary gender.
speaker
But also I
speaker
didn't have language for what else
speaker
it meant at the time.
speaker
It was a word that was given to me
speaker
in the mountains,
speaker
in an animist kind of way.
speaker
And it's taken me 20 years to start
speaker
to have more language about what
speaker
that means. And it means being,
speaker
you know, resisting the
speaker
colonization.
speaker
Right. So resisting white supremacy,
speaker
resisting Christian supremacy
speaker
and being non-binary in gender
speaker
for me, being connected
speaker
to my ancestors and OtherWise to
speaker
folk who have come before me
speaker
in an animist kind of way.
speaker
All of that is bound
speaker
up in this OtherWise identification
speaker
that I have, and I'm
speaker
continuing to unfold
speaker
in my own understanding.
speaker
Right. Again, very much influenced
speaker
by people of color and indigenous
speaker
traditions,
speaker
but acknowledging that I come from
speaker
European roots,
speaker
right?
speaker
And Christian upbringing, and that
speaker
I'm not, like I don't feel called
speaker
to become embedded
speaker
in an indigenous tradition.
speaker
I believe that we as white folk,
speaker
as European descent
speaker
folk who who carry this
speaker
lineage of Christian supremacy,
speaker
need to do our own work to unpack
speaker
and decolonize the traditions that
speaker
we've been given.
speaker
And for me, OtherWise, is that
speaker
is that language that starts to say
speaker
this is actually a pretty European
speaker
word and it evokes the
speaker
binary. Right?
speaker
You have this otherwise that,
speaker
like this or that,
speaker
but that there's also a third way,
speaker
right, that I originally learned
speaker
from peace activists that there's a
speaker
third way to violent engagement.
speaker
There's other ways to resist and
speaker
do something different than
speaker
buy into the script that says you
speaker
have to be for or against
speaker
whatever the thing is.
speaker
And so, so all these threads,
speaker
right, weave together for me
speaker
and,
speaker
and in 2007,
speaker
the, I guess it's the Presbyterian
speaker
Women's Committee?
speaker
The National
speaker
contacted me and said, we want to
speaker
we're going to be in Philadelphia
speaker
and we want to do a training on
speaker
transgender issues.
speaker
Would you lead us
speaker
in this session?
speaker
Sure. And so I hadn't really.
speaker
I'd been busy for
speaker
doing other very dramatic things
speaker
in my life for the past
speaker
eight years.
speaker
But I was like, sure.
speaker
So let me Google, at this point we
speaker
had Google. Before we didn't have
speaker
Google.
speaker
I Googled transgender Christian to
speaker
see like what I had missed
speaker
while I was distracted doing other
speaker
things.
speaker
And and the number one
speaker
search result on Google
speaker
in 2007
speaker
for transgender Christian was Trans
speaker
Faith Online, was my website
speaker
that I hadn't touched in eight years
speaker
that had broken links like half the
speaker
content wasn't even there anymore.
speaker
And I was the number one search
speaker
result and I was like, Wow,
speaker
like what's been happening for eight
speaker
years that I'm still
speaker
at the top of these search results.
speaker
And we could talk about Google
speaker
algorithms and whatnot, but
speaker
I did that session.
speaker
But it was part of a call, you know,
speaker
the spirit sort of coming in and
speaker
tapping me on the shoulder and
speaker
saying, you remember this?
speaker
You remember this transgender thing
speaker
that you got clarity about in
speaker
years ago? It's time for you to go
speaker
back to that thing.
speaker
And another,
speaker
you know, a funder presented
speaker
themselves like I was facilitating a
speaker
retreat in New Jersey with
speaker
Methodists,
speaker
and we were doing asset based
speaker
community development just going
speaker
around the circle like, what do you
speaker
love to do? What do you want to
speaker
offer to the world?
speaker
Instead of saying, How do we
speaker
raise money to do such a thing?
speaker
You know? And so one person said, I,
speaker
I feel moved to share that I have a
speaker
family foundation.
speaker
And that became
speaker
the first funder for Trans Faith
speaker
Online.
speaker
And I relaunched the website on a
speaker
content management system, which
speaker
was not something
speaker
people did at that time.
speaker
Right now, now we have blogs and,
speaker
you know, this was still Web
speaker
1.0.
speaker
And so moving it to a content
speaker
management system was kind of a big
speaker
investment. And
speaker
and then I finally started really
speaker
meeting transgender people.
speaker
And in like 2008, as I networked
speaker
the new website, I started
speaker
getting invited to, you know,
speaker
there's a Transgender Relief
speaker
Religious Leaders Summit in
speaker
Berkeley.
speaker
It was actually the second one, and
speaker
I was invited to present there.
speaker
I was invited to the Fellowship of
speaker
Affirming Ministry, Bishop Flunder
speaker
invited me to present at their
speaker
leaders convocation
speaker
and the Fellowship and Bishop
speaker
Flunder have been really important
speaker
part of my journey again with sort
speaker
of Black church tradition,
speaker
but more so just friends
speaker
and colleagues that have helped me
speaker
to grow and new and different ways.
speaker
Bishop Flunder introduced me to
speaker
Louis Mitchell.
speaker
She sort of instigated a group
speaker
called Trans Saints, which
speaker
is the Transgender Ministry of the
speaker
Fellowship of Affirming Ministries.
speaker
And Fellowship is mostly
speaker
Black neo-Pentecostal, uh,
speaker
gay, lesbian and some trans
speaker
folk around the country
speaker
and around the world. They have
speaker
ministry in Africa and
speaker
Asia and Mexico
speaker
and places.
speaker
So a really broad reach.
speaker
And so Trans Saints, the initial
speaker
configuration, they changed the
speaker
configuration pretty quickly after
speaker
that. But the initial configuration
speaker
from the first meeting was that
speaker
there would be an advocacy committee
speaker
and some other committees.
speaker
And she said, Chris and L.J., you
speaker
work on the advocacy
speaker
committee.
speaker
L.J.
speaker
now goes by Louis Mitchell
speaker
and we became fast friends like,
speaker
you know, separated at birth kind of
speaker
level, level of siblinghood.
speaker
And we would share a room
speaker
at Fellowship events and get
speaker
to know each other better.
speaker
And at this
speaker
point, it's, it's it's not been
speaker
ten years that we've known each
speaker
other, but we,
speaker
we were volunteered on different
speaker
groups together and eventually said,
speaker
you know, we really need to build an
speaker
independent trans organization
speaker
to to deal with these issues because
speaker
it's really not working to try to do
speaker
trans under the umbrella
speaker
of LGBT organizing like trans
speaker
folk have specific
speaker
different needs.
speaker
Expertise about trans issues just
speaker
really isn't present in the
speaker
cisgender leadership of LGBT
speaker
organizations, even when they're
speaker
trying.
speaker
And we need to be more independent
speaker
in how we operate.
speaker
And so in 2012,
speaker
we launched
speaker
I became the founding executive
speaker
director of Trans Faith, the
speaker
organization, as opposed to just a
speaker
website.
speaker
And after six years, I stepped down
speaker
and Louis became executive director.
speaker
So he's currently the executive
speaker
director of Trans Faith,
speaker
the organization.
speaker
And so that's a a continuing
speaker
journey. And so between the
speaker
website and Trans Faith, I've been
speaker
privileged to know
speaker
in really close
speaker
behind the scenes kinds of ways,
speaker
the stories of lots
speaker
of transgender, spiritual
speaker
and cultural workers
speaker
in a multiracial kind of way have
speaker
learned from two spirit
speaker
Native folk of trans
speaker
experience,
speaker
have learned from transgender Jews
speaker
about Hebrew Scripture in
speaker
a way that Christians just don't
speaker
get it right and
speaker
have have learned from
speaker
transgender Buddhist teachers,
speaker
you know, work with transgender
speaker
Muslims just like
speaker
this amazing rich
speaker
experience, which, you know, I
speaker
founded a student interfaith dialog
speaker
group in college, you know, for
speaker
a couple of semesters.
speaker
And I in Philadelphia,
speaker
I founded the Yes Coalition, not
speaker
co-founded, I worked with the Yes
speaker
Coalition. I didn't found it,
speaker
but became the coordinator of it and
speaker
so had multi-faith
speaker
relationships here in an
speaker
LGBT context.
speaker
But Trans Faith, really
speaker
the national network of folk
speaker
and the privilege of really hearing
speaker
like what's real, like what's going
speaker
on? Not just not just what
speaker
you post on Facebook, not just
speaker
what the conference headlines say,
speaker
but like what was really going on
speaker
behind the scenes in your life
speaker
and the struggles and challenges?
speaker
And how does God
speaker
or Dharma practice
speaker
or whatever have to do with whatever
speaker
it is that's going on?
speaker
Like that has been profound and
speaker
powerful for me.
speaker
Yeah, that's been really important
speaker
as well as specifically
speaker
people of color.
speaker
And so I you know, between Louis
speaker
being an important part of my life,
speaker
Fellowship and other contacts
speaker
with people of
speaker
color organizers, you know,
speaker
there's this other lineage.
speaker
So like I started this talking about
speaker
my Presbyterian and white
speaker
Christian, you know, queer
speaker
lineage that, you know, Miss
speaker
Major, who was at Stonewall is a
speaker
Black trans woman
speaker
is is Mother Major to me
speaker
now and and Jonathon
speaker
Thunderword, who
speaker
Louis Mitchell counts father
speaker
figure right um
speaker
is is my elder and so
speaker
there's this tradition of especially
speaker
Black trans organizing
speaker
and resistance and resilience
speaker
that's also a part of my lineage.
speaker
Now, I'm not Black, I don't pretend
speaker
to be Black, but
speaker
they were doing things when I didn't
speaker
know they existed.
speaker
And this is why I talk about like
speaker
they're more visible now.
speaker
But they were doing the work.
speaker
Jonathon and Major were doing the
speaker
work in the nineties.
speaker
I've got written proof of that.
speaker
But that doesn't mean that people
speaker
like me over in our little Christian
speaker
ivory towers knew
speaker
what it meant for them to help folks
speaker
survive
speaker
in that same time.
speaker
And so now I've had the privilege to
speaker
sit with those folk and be in
speaker
relationship with those folk and
speaker
learn from those folk.
speaker
And, and that's
speaker
that changes me, right?
speaker
And so it's it's hard for me to
speaker
figure out how to talk.
speaker
A lot of times when we tell the
speaker
story of LGBT
speaker
Christian organizing and we did this
speaker
at an event in St. Louis
speaker
a year and a half ago or so.
speaker
Mark Bowman's doing a great job with
speaker
the LGBT Religious Archives Network
speaker
and put on a conference in St. Louis
speaker
to sort of gather Christian elders,
speaker
impart, you know, before folk pass
speaker
on.
speaker
And I was invited as a trans elder,
speaker
and it was it was just
speaker
extraordinarily awkward for
speaker
me because I really
speaker
do look up to
speaker
folk like Carter and Virginia and
speaker
Janie and Melanie that came before
speaker
me on this white Christian lineage.
speaker
But when we tell the story
speaker
that people of color came
speaker
later, when we tell the
speaker
story that trans folk came later,
speaker
I'm like, That's my family, too.
speaker
Those are my elders, too.
speaker
And and then
speaker
there's this challenge for me of how
speaker
do I talk about both lineages,
speaker
give honor to both lineages, and be
speaker
clear, just because I didn't meet
speaker
Major or Jonathon until
speaker
years later
speaker
doesn't mean they weren't doing the
speaker
work. They were there
speaker
on the front lines, even more
speaker
so
speaker
in all kinds of ways.
speaker
And and so I think it's really
speaker
important as we think about history,
speaker
right, that there are parallel
speaker
histories and
speaker
and white supremacy
speaker
and Christian supremacy means that
speaker
white Christian history tends to be
speaker
told in in a
speaker
dominant way.
speaker
But those other histories are there.
speaker
And we need to know and actually,
speaker
you know, especially in times like
speaker
these, with the kind of president
speaker
that we have and uprisings
speaker
of white supremacy,
speaker
the reckless abandon
speaker
of white supremacy these days,
speaker
there's so much that we need to
speaker
learn from folk who have been
speaker
resisting for generations.
speaker
Right? Like that's a legacy that
speaker
we as white Christians need
speaker
to know different ways of resisting
speaker
when we don't have that kind of
speaker
institutional power.
speaker
The wisdom is there.
speaker
The question is whether we honor it
speaker
or whether we try to start from
speaker
scratch or pretend we invented it,
speaker
or like all the other ways we can
speaker
appropriate knowledge and wisdom.
speaker
And so,
speaker
so. So yeah.
speaker
So this, this trans organizing has
speaker
been such a blessing in my
speaker
life in terms of the extraordinary
speaker
people. With one friend I talk about
speaker
four and five dimensional people,
speaker
right? Like it's not just that folk
speaker
are organizing around
speaker
trans gender identity.
speaker
They're not just organizing around
speaker
race. They're not just organizing
speaker
around religion,
speaker
like four and five dimensional
speaker
people who integrate all of these
speaker
things into our lives.
speaker
And I want to be a four
speaker
or five dimensional person, right?
speaker
That I'm not just a one issue
speaker
kind of person that like how do we
speaker
talk about the borderlands and
speaker
immigration and how does that relate
speaker
to gender identity?
speaker
And how does disability justice
speaker
and understanding our bodies relate
speaker
to transgender issues?
speaker
And it's all connected.
speaker
Like in the end it's all connected.
speaker
And it's extraordinary when
speaker
you can apprehend those connections.
speaker
It's so rich.
speaker
And yet that's not how the
speaker
conversation is typically
speaker
framed. We're usually talking about
speaker
gender over here, and there's the
speaker
race issue over there and
speaker
something else over here.
speaker
But they're really are.
speaker
Connected in part in our bodies.
speaker
Right? They're all connected in our
speaker
in our very bodies because we
speaker
experience them.
speaker
In us. So, yeah.
speaker
So this transgender organizing has
speaker
changed my life. It's been quite a
speaker
blessing.
speaker
So like kind of the work of Trans
speaker
Faith now to kind of try to find
speaker
those intersections.
speaker
You promote those kind of
speaker
conversations?
speaker
Yeah, well, there's there's really
speaker
nobody else working on a national
speaker
level, multi-faith,
speaker
multi-racial, multi-gender
speaker
in the way that we are in a in a
speaker
very anti-colonial,
speaker
culturally competent way.
speaker
Some people sort of dabble,
speaker
especially when there's funding
speaker
available. Folks dabble.
speaker
But folk know that,
speaker
you know, we've had there's there's
speaker
one friend who I met
speaker
when she was unemployed
speaker
and out of seminary and not sure how
speaker
she was going to support her family.
speaker
And I knew her when she was
speaker
historically hired at this major
speaker
LGBT organization.
speaker
And I knew her when she was
speaker
historically hired at this major
speaker
LGBT organization.
speaker
And I knew her after
speaker
that organization blew up.
speaker
Right. And and and
speaker
so we're that organization that
speaker
doesn't isn't interested.
speaker
We care about your title and what
speaker
you're doing.
speaker
But moreover, I care about
speaker
you as a person and
speaker
who you were before and who you are
speaker
after.
speaker
Because a lot of folk who make
speaker
headlines,
speaker
right, there's
speaker
that 15 minutes or two years
speaker
when somebody is famous and
speaker
Louis likes to talk about the hula
speaker
hoop, like, what's the current fad
speaker
that somebody wants to talk about?
speaker
Or the story that's sort
speaker
of hot in the moment.
speaker
But but we all have lives after that
speaker
moment has passed where we
speaker
still struggle to find employment
speaker
and most of our folks struggle to
speaker
find employment
speaker
and, you know, even highly
speaker
qualified, high functioning folk
speaker
who for various reasons,
speaker
you know, whether being outspoken,
speaker
trans or
speaker
discrimination or whatever it is,
speaker
you know, struggle to find
speaker
employment. And so so we're we're
speaker
that a place that, you know,
speaker
a big chunk of what we do is just
speaker
behind the scenes support for people
speaker
who are doing extraordinary
speaker
five dimensional work.
speaker
Right? We're fiscal sponsors of the
speaker
Black Trans Prayer Book.
speaker
It's an amazing project.
speaker
And like, where else would they
speaker
house something that integrates
speaker
being Black and trans and having
speaker
a spiritual life?
speaker
And and so
speaker
we do educational work.
speaker
We attend conferences, we do
speaker
a lot of relational work
speaker
and mostly just try to occupy in
speaker
some sense that that intersection
speaker
that, you
speaker
know, our our new tagline is we are
speaker
better together, right?
speaker
Like if
speaker
the way that nonprofit industrial
speaker
complex is structured encourages
speaker
us to be in silos, right?
speaker
To be in my little Presbyterian
speaker
silo.
speaker
And it's important the work that
speaker
More Light Presbyterians does and
speaker
Covenant Network that within the
speaker
denomination, the silos are
speaker
important too.
speaker
But it's still a silo.
speaker
And I'm we tend to be that person
speaker
who says, okay, there's this
speaker
Episcopal person who's working on
speaker
discrimination against trans women.
speaker
And I just introduced her to someone
speaker
in the UCC and
speaker
we're talking about connected, you
speaker
know that I'm a person
speaker
that and we're an organization
speaker
that people come to to say like, who
speaker
else is doing this thing
speaker
that helps break open the silos
speaker
and then learn from each other,
speaker
particularly around religious
speaker
tradition, even within Christianity,
speaker
the denomination silos
speaker
and around race and
speaker
culture as well, right?
speaker
So to connect the transgender
speaker
Jews and the transgender Christians
speaker
and the Two-Spirit folk of
speaker
transgender experience.
speaker
And one
speaker
of the things that I did
speaker
in 2009
speaker
was co-found
speaker
the Spirituality Track at
speaker
the Philadelphia Trans Health
speaker
Conference.
speaker
It's now called the Philadelphia
speaker
Trans Wellness Conference.
speaker
But that was another really on the
speaker
ground place where I met,
speaker
learned about trans folk very
speaker
clearly. It's a conference.
speaker
It's the largest transgender
speaker
specific conference in the world.
speaker
And it's it's a place where there's
speaker
conversations about mental health
speaker
and there's conversations about
speaker
physical transition and dating
speaker
and spirituality is in there, right?
speaker
And, you know,
speaker
just about anything under the sun
speaker
that you can talk about.
speaker
And so I learned a lot from folk
speaker
doing different kinds of trans
speaker
activism, and
speaker
that was a great place to bring
speaker
together trans
speaker
folk on a multi-faith and
speaker
multiracial basis.
speaker
So that's another location where
speaker
some of that happened.
speaker
I think you've pretty much covered
speaker
everything that I have here.
speaker
I'll just ask a couple more
speaker
questions.
speaker
Is there anything I mean, you've
speaker
just received so many kind
speaker
of awards and praise for your
speaker
advocacy work.
speaker
Is there anything looking back kind
speaker
of over your career that you feel
speaker
proudest of?
speaker
Hmm.
speaker
Proudest might not be the right word, but
speaker
something that stands out.
speaker
It's it's complicated for me,
speaker
looking back.
speaker
I have I have a lot of regrets
speaker
and a lot of pride.
speaker
It's kind of mixed in
speaker
in a similar way to these legacies,
speaker
right?
speaker
I feel like I feel
speaker
like the movement is at this
speaker
point of wanting to tell the stories
speaker
of way back when.
speaker
And I'm a little bit like,
speaker
whoa, but we ain't done yet, come on
speaker
y'all.
speaker
And there's certainly generational
speaker
like I understand some of the
speaker
reasons for it and the
speaker
alleged success of marriage
speaker
equality, which of course,
speaker
everything's being rolled back by
speaker
the current administration.
speaker
And we have a new Supreme Court that
speaker
could undo a lot of things that were
speaker
done.
speaker
But there's sort of this victory lap
speaker
that seems to happen.
speaker
And for trans folk and for people
speaker
of color in
speaker
particular, like we're
speaker
just not there
speaker
and there's still just
speaker
transgender employment
speaker
discrimination is a very real thing,
speaker
as well as people of color
speaker
having a hard time finding work
speaker
in the industry.
speaker
And so we want you know, there's a
speaker
way that the movement, both secular
speaker
and religious, likes to want to
speaker
trot us out for photo ops, right?
speaker
To show their trans folk, show their
speaker
people of color, show the trans
speaker
people of color.
speaker
But then when you're like, but who
speaker
are you hiring?
speaker
You didn't reach out.
speaker
You didn't even reach out.
speaker
Like we didn't even know you were
speaker
hiring. You're hired somebody
speaker
convenient.
speaker
And.
speaker
And that the advocacy is
speaker
uneven.
speaker
Even the cultural competence still
speaker
today is uneven.
speaker
That if you're an LGBT
speaker
organization
speaker
but you don't have basic cultural
speaker
competence about what trans lives
speaker
are like.
speaker
Like how do you justify hiring
speaker
people that don't have that cultural
speaker
competence?
speaker
There are lots of trans folk who
speaker
have, who can talk about sexual
speaker
orientation and gender,
speaker
but a lot of people who are
speaker
cisgender can talk about
speaker
sexual orientation, but they're not
speaker
very good on on gender.
speaker
So like, even if you're not
speaker
hiring based on identity, right?
speaker
Because legally you're not allowed
speaker
to hire based on identity,
speaker
you should be hiring for cultural
speaker
competence in
speaker
the things that are in your mission
speaker
statement.
speaker
You know, race is an issue that's
speaker
not necessarily in the mission
speaker
statement of these LGBT orgs,
speaker
even though we give lip service in
speaker
whatever way and may or may not have
speaker
the cultural competence.
speaker
But transgender is in the mission
speaker
statements of these organization and
speaker
in the name of some of them.
speaker
And so to lack that cultural
speaker
competence is
speaker
is is difficult.
speaker
So I guess I'm most
speaker
proud and
speaker
most challenged both by
speaker
trying to be a voice in the
speaker
wilderness in a sense, like I
speaker
am. I'm kind of a loud mouth.
speaker
I think I've gotten a reputation
speaker
for that. I probably I don't think I
speaker
have that many honors compared to
speaker
some people because I
speaker
think I've made people
speaker
uncomfortable, like leading
speaker
national LGBT leaders
speaker
in religion, uncomfortable
speaker
regularly.
speaker
I finally came up with a
speaker
like a closing, you know, you say
speaker
with gratitude or sincerely
speaker
at the end of a note, and I started
speaker
writing awkwardly yours
speaker
on some of these emails because I
speaker
was just like, how can I lighten
speaker
it up and acknowledge that
speaker
I'm like, I know you're
speaker
doing the thing that people
speaker
expect you to do in white Christian
speaker
organizing, but like, I'm
speaker
over here with my Black trans elders
speaker
going like, Come on now,
speaker
I can't.
speaker
I can't split myself apart like that
speaker
anymore. Like, these folk are a part
speaker
of me.
speaker
And so, like, awkwardly,
speaker
so I'm still learning how to
speaker
interpret who I am
speaker
in a way that's more accessible, I
speaker
think people get turned off.
speaker
I think people get scared.
speaker
I think people get overwhelmed.
speaker
I think people get intimidated
speaker
because I'm pretty uppity.
speaker
I'm pretty uppity about this trans
speaker
thing, I'm uppity about the race
speaker
thing. I'm uppity about the cultural
speaker
dynamics of like white civility
speaker
and how we're supposed to be happy
speaker
and smiling, even when,
speaker
as Audre Lorde put it, someone has
speaker
their foot on our neck, right?
speaker
Like and
speaker
I've reached a point in my life
speaker
where I'm clear about that and the
speaker
the the cultural dynamics
speaker
that maintain these
speaker
systems of oppression, even among
speaker
well-meaning liberals, right?
speaker
Who say they want to change,
speaker
but then reenacts
speaker
these cultural dynamics that make it
speaker
just intolerable for folk to
speaker
to be in a space.
speaker
And so I guess I'm on a good day.
speaker
On a good day I'm proud of being
speaker
uppity and I'm proud of rocking
speaker
the boat.
speaker
And I'm proud of doing
speaker
groundbreaking work on
speaker
transgender organizing.
speaker
I'm. You know what I'm most proud
speaker
of? I'm. I'm most proud.
speaker
I am most proud
speaker
of the people who trust me.
speaker
And that's not something you'll see
speaker
on the website.
speaker
But but
speaker
people who have good
speaker
reason not to trust white folk,
speaker
who have good reason not to trust
speaker
nonprofit leaders,
speaker
managers,
speaker
who feel like they
speaker
can talk openly
speaker
and honestly with me,
speaker
I treasure.
speaker
I feel like given
speaker
the legacy of colonization and
speaker
racism in this country,
speaker
it's a miracle
speaker
that white folk and people of
speaker
color have any relationships at all.
speaker
Like, I just I think it's really a
speaker
miracle. Like, there's so much grace
speaker
involved in, even, like,
speaker
just not being
speaker
shot or something.
speaker
I mean, I don't mean that in a
speaker
joking way, but.
speaker
There's good reason for there not to
speaker
be trust.
speaker
And so each one of
speaker
these relationships,
speaker
you know, and also with Christians,
speaker
with with transgender
speaker
leaders who are parts of other
speaker
traditions, have good reason not to
speaker
trust people of Christian
speaker
background, people of color.
speaker
Those relationships are my greatest
speaker
pride and joy and and
speaker
helped me survive.
speaker
It's a very self-interested pride,
speaker
because I really do despair
speaker
sometimes of like, oh, gosh, I've
speaker
spent 20 years in this work
speaker
and I and my people still
speaker
are on the outside
speaker
and I've been as close, I've been
speaker
on the inside.
speaker
And I yelled about it a bit.
speaker
And I mean, not just yelled.
speaker
I've organized. I've built an
speaker
organization. I've, you know,
speaker
shown up.
speaker
And on a bad
speaker
day, I have a lot of despair about
speaker
what I wasted my life on.
speaker
And those relationships
speaker
are what keeps me going then to say,
speaker
okay, but we're still here.
speaker
As Miss Major would say we're still
speaker
fucking here. I'm quoting Miss
speaker
Major.
speaker
But that's the kind of wisdom that I
speaker
get, right? From this other lineage,
speaker
these other lineages is,
speaker
you know, she's been through the
speaker
ringer. She's seen folk go through
speaker
the ringer.
speaker
And and surviving
speaker
is success.
speaker
Surviving to tell the story
speaker
is success.
speaker
And so I don't always remember
speaker
that, right? I want to
speaker
until I'm on some portrait
speaker
on some wall, I mean, right?
speaker
Like what are white standards of
speaker
until I publish my book,
speaker
I like, that's the
speaker
kinds of success that I was raised
speaker
up in but but
speaker
it's success to survive and be
speaker
in relationship and be in resistance
speaker
and live to tell the
speaker
tale.
speaker
Yeah.
speaker
Yeah.
speaker
Probably something that we should at
speaker
least mention for the historical
speaker
record, especially ecumenically,
speaker
that we didn't do is what I was
speaker
doing between that 1999
speaker
and 2007.
speaker
So the commitment ceremony
speaker
I had in October of 2000
speaker
was at Tabernacle and it was
speaker
semi-secret because
speaker
my partner was a United Methodist
speaker
minister
speaker
and a lesbian.
speaker
And
speaker
and so we, you know, were careful
speaker
who we invited. The Methodist Church
speaker
polity was and is
speaker
such that people could be defrocked
speaker
just for attending a wedding
speaker
or commitment ceremony as it was.
speaker
And so she was
speaker
quietly serving at First United
speaker
Methodist of Germantown
speaker
in Philadelphia as
speaker
an associate pastor assistant.
speaker
I forget what title it was
speaker
and running the youth program and so
speaker
forth. And after about two and a
speaker
half years after our
speaker
commitment ceremony, we were living
speaker
together, starting
speaker
to talk about having a family.
speaker
We wanted to do, you
speaker
know, domestic foster care to
speaker
adoption.
speaker
She said, you know, I can't
speaker
I can't keep teaching these kids
speaker
and not, and preaching these sermons
speaker
and not talk about what I'm learning
speaker
about God at home with my partner
speaker
and how do I teach these kids to
speaker
love themselves if I'm not able to
speaker
be open about who I am?
speaker
And so she decided
speaker
we decided that she would come
speaker
out as an openly
speaker
lesbian United Methodist clergy
speaker
person,
speaker
and we thought
speaker
she'd be defrocked and we'd get on
speaker
with the foster care process.
speaker
But it was a two and a half to three
speaker
year process, two and a half
speaker
years.
speaker
She informed her bishop.
speaker
He said, Well, if you do this, I'll
speaker
have to do this.
speaker
And some people
speaker
have had a hard time with United
speaker
Methodist bishops not saying
speaker
what they mean and meaning, doing
speaker
what they say.
speaker
But Bishop Weaver did exactly
speaker
what he said, and he didn't
speaker
like it.
speaker
But he did what he said and
speaker
she did what she said.
speaker
She came out there was actually
speaker
a documentary crew there.
speaker
So there's a movie
speaker
called The Congregation by the
speaker
Raymonds, who are kind of a
speaker
famous video verite
speaker
documentary crew.
speaker
She came out,
speaker
talked about our relationship
speaker
and.
speaker
And for
speaker
somewhere around two and a half
speaker
years was an openly lesbian clergy
speaker
person.
speaker
She was eventually defrocked in a
speaker
church trial
speaker
that made national headlines and
speaker
news,
speaker
and it was overturned on appeal
speaker
in the Northeast jurisdiction and
speaker
then was reaffirmed
speaker
the defrocking at Judicial Council
speaker
at the end of that two and a half
speaker
years.
speaker
And so
speaker
it was it was a it's an interesting
speaker
part of my history, right, because
speaker
I've become this transgender
speaker
organizer.
speaker
I was already openly trans at that
speaker
point. If you went to the Trans
speaker
Faith Online website, you would have
speaker
found, you know, and I'd been
speaker
published in the Other Side
speaker
Magazine, around OtherWise.
speaker
But we made the strategic choice
speaker
not to talk about my trans gender
speaker
identity. You know, this was a time
speaker
when, you know, our our
speaker
messaging coach,
speaker
our PR person was like,
speaker
you know, don't say queer.
speaker
You know, we really want to reach an
speaker
audience that might be uncomfortable
speaker
with the word queer. We're going to
speaker
say lesbian and gay.
speaker
You know, and it was just kind of
speaker
like a bridge too far to talk about
speaker
gender when
speaker
the story was really about this, you
speaker
know, lesbian clergy person who
speaker
loves Jesus.
speaker
Like that was the story.
speaker
And that was what was important in
speaker
that moment. But but meanwhile, she
speaker
was being defrocked for being
speaker
with someone who is the same gender.
speaker
And I'm not the same gender as her.
speaker
If you really understand what gender
speaker
is.
speaker
Although legally, you know,
speaker
we had the same marker on our
speaker
driver's license. So,
speaker
you know, that's like this
speaker
complicated part of my history
speaker
where I'm kind of like a famous
speaker
United Methodist, even though I've
speaker
never been a member of a United
speaker
Methodist Church, I've been an
speaker
associate member eventually.
speaker
But,
speaker
you know, I had this whole other
speaker
United Methodist life,
speaker
in a sense, and people
speaker
who know me and my history
speaker
through that very public
speaker
and, you know, very public trauma
speaker
and.
speaker
Yeah. And then came out of that and
speaker
and became more public about
speaker
the, you know, more
speaker
active and well-known around the
speaker
transgender stuff, even more so.
speaker
Um, and I never quite
speaker
know how.
speaker
It's hard to know who knows me how,
speaker
when I, when I meet someone.
speaker
So somebody at church, uh,
speaker
who I'd known for several years
speaker
and, uh, and
speaker
somehow it came up.
speaker
I forget how. I said, You remember
speaker
that really famous the United
speaker
Methodist Church trial
speaker
back in 2004?
speaker
She's like, Oh, yeah. That was us.
speaker
She's like, That was you?
speaker
You know, cause they don't, folk
speaker
don't remember the names or connect
speaker
the dots. And especially especially
speaker
local history and especially
speaker
Methodist history.
speaker
Um.
speaker
But, yeah, it's
speaker
this. It's this funny kind of.
speaker
I don't know if it'll be a footnote
speaker
or it's like this.
speaker
Is that in some
speaker
in some circles, that's what makes
speaker
me famous. In some circles, being
speaker
publisher of The Other Side magazine
speaker
is what makes me most famous.
speaker
And in some places, being co-founder
speaker
of Trans Faith is what makes
speaker
me most famous, I guess.
speaker
But they're but they're all a part
speaker
of me in the way that we
speaker
described.
speaker
Is there anything else that
speaker
you want to make sure we talk about?
speaker
My daughter would probably be very
speaker
mad if she
speaker
ever listened to this and
speaker
I didn't acknowledge her existence.
speaker
So after the
speaker
after the church trial stuff was
speaker
done in 2005, we had
speaker
a final press conference
speaker
in the pumpkin patch outside
speaker
the church. She was selling pumpkin
speaker
patches, pumpkins to
speaker
raise money for a youth group
speaker
trip or something.
speaker
And and we had been
speaker
on hold in the foster care process
speaker
for two and a half
speaker
going on three years.
speaker
And they said the agency said we've
speaker
never had anybody in the process for
speaker
three years, but it just it was
speaker
inappropriate to bring someone
speaker
else's child into that story.
speaker
And Thanksgiving
speaker
that year, we got the phone call
speaker
of what turned out to be Nevaeh,
speaker
who was at the time seven weeks old
speaker
and still in the NICU
speaker
at Frankford Torresdale
speaker
Hospital.
speaker
And and she came to
speaker
live with us. And after about
speaker
three years, she was finally
speaker
adopted. But not before
speaker
we came, became really interwoven
speaker
with her birth family, who's all
speaker
local.
speaker
And so you expect to
speaker
fall in love with a kid.
speaker
You don't expect to fall in love
speaker
with a birth family or be adopted
speaker
by the birth family of your adopted
speaker
kid. So there's this whole
speaker
other branch of our family now that
speaker
is is kin is family with
speaker
us.
speaker
And Nevaeh is now 13
speaker
years old and a delightful
speaker
young woman who is
speaker
wise in her own ways
speaker
and who I really appreciate.
speaker
Who she's growing in to be.
speaker
And then meanwhile, my
speaker
Beth and I have divorced.
speaker
And so the divorce was finalized in
speaker
2015.
speaker
But we continue to co-parent
speaker
together in
speaker
in New Jersey.
speaker
Around Nevaeh.
speaker
That's probably what I would get in
speaker
trouble for not saying. Nevaeh I
speaker
love you.
speaker
Oh, and I did come out to my parents
speaker
once I was working at The Other Side
speaker
magazine and I not so
speaker
discreetly said, Here's
speaker
this Christians and homosexuality
speaker
magazine. You should really read it.
speaker
Have you read it yet?
speaker
You should really read it now.
speaker
Apparently that's how I was like,
speaker
again, not so subtle, like when you
speaker
really think you're so
speaker
crafty.
speaker
So they didn't quite say, It's about
speaker
time you told me, but
speaker
they were kind of like,
speaker
okay, like we
speaker
worked it out and
speaker
and they've been extraordinary
speaker
supporters ever
speaker
since.
speaker
Just extraordinary
speaker
allies,
speaker
never wavering.
speaker
No matter what kind of crazy stuff I
speaker
throw at them that they don't really
speaker
understand. But we're going to
speaker
listen and we'll try to figure it
speaker
out. And they and them pronouns.
speaker
Okay, I'm not, they and them.
speaker
Okay.
speaker
We're going to we're going to work
speaker
on that.
speaker
It's we're we forget, but
speaker
we we try and
speaker
and so so yeah.
speaker
I have to also
speaker
acknowledge my parents through the
speaker
whole process as well.
speaker
You said before that your dad
speaker
was really involved in the
speaker
Presbyterian Church.
speaker
Did that continue for quite a while?
speaker
Yeah, he's still I think he stepped
speaker
off session where they are now.
speaker
They were involved in in Slidell,
speaker
Louisiana. I don't know that they're
speaker
in leadership there.
speaker
I believe Dad first went on session
speaker
at Silver Spring Presbyterian
speaker
outside D.C.
speaker
That was
speaker
oh, actually, when.
speaker
So when I came out to them.
speaker
Right. I had been agnostic
speaker
and they stopped going to the
speaker
Presbyterian Church when I stopped
speaker
going and started attending
speaker
a Christian Reformed church because
speaker
the greater Washington, D.C.
speaker
area has more Dutch people and
speaker
Christian Reformed folk.
speaker
And so they got back in the
speaker
Christian Reformed community.
speaker
And when I came out to them,
speaker
Mom went to the pastor there
speaker
again discreetly
speaker
said, What's the position of the
speaker
Christian Reformed Church?
speaker
This would be 1994, probably
speaker
maybe 95.
speaker
What's the position of the Christian
speaker
Reformed Church on homosexuality?
speaker
And he researched
speaker
it and got her a copy of the 1971
speaker
position paper on homosexuality
speaker
from the Christian Reformed Church
speaker
was, as you can imagine, was not
speaker
supportive.
speaker
And hopefully
speaker
I'm not telling my mom's story here
speaker
too much, but I understand that he
speaker
came for a pastoral visit and half
speaker
the conversation was about sexuality
speaker
and what it meant
speaker
for her to love me.
speaker
Her then lesbian identified daughter
speaker
hadn't done the trans thing trans
speaker
clarifying yet at that time,
speaker
but apparently half of it was how
speaker
she might have gone to seminary
speaker
if women were allowed to go to
speaker
seminary, and
speaker
at the time that she would have have
speaker
done that. And so
speaker
they found a again, a Presbyterian
speaker
USA church
speaker
in the area, stopped going to
speaker
the CRC.
speaker
And I think that's where Dad got
speaker
involved and was voted
speaker
on to session.
speaker
And eventually they moved back to
speaker
Michigan and
speaker
Dad served on session for a number
speaker
of years at what's now
speaker
North Westminster
speaker
and I think he's still on the
speaker
building committee or something
speaker
where he, you know, refinishes
speaker
floors when they need him to or
speaker
something.
speaker
So they're both slowing down a
speaker
little bit. But and and he's
speaker
trying to step back a little bit
speaker
from from church.
speaker
But somewhere I think
speaker
once they were in Michigan was
speaker
when he was part of
speaker
the General Assembly overture
speaker
advocate.
speaker
Along the way. I would have to ask
speaker
him for the details, though.
speaker
I don't I don't quite recall.
speaker
So, yeah, they've been
speaker
in Mom's, you know, worshipped.
speaker
I don't think she's been in
speaker
leadership.
speaker
She quilts and makes,
speaker
uh, liturgical vestments
speaker
and whatnot with the, the ladies
speaker
of the church sometimes.
speaker
Yeah. They've been incredible.
speaker
I think that might be a good place
speaker
to stop.
speaker
Okay.
speaker
Thank you so much.
speaker
Yeah.

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Title: Chris Paige oral history, 2019.
Description: Chris Paige is a transgender activist who created Transfaith Online in 1999. Paige was ordained as an elder in the PC(USA) in 1971 and helped establish transgender groups in the United Church of Christ, the Fellowship of Affirming Ministries, and throughout Philadelphia.
Creator: Paige, Chris. (interviewee)
Wittrig, Elizabeth L. (interviewer)
Date: 2019
January 24, 2019
Type of resource: sound recording-nonmusical
Genre: interviews
oral histories
Form: born digital
Extent: 765 MB (1 WAV file)
Subject names: More Light Presbyterians
Topics: Gender identity--Religious aspects--Presbyterian Church.
Christian transgender people.
Transgender people.
Geographic subjects: United States
Rights status: IN COPYRIGHT; http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Physical location: ARCHIVES 19-0732; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA
Related item: Chris Paige oral history, 2019.--http://prestohost68.inmagic.com/Presto/content/Detail.aspx?ctID=Y2RiNWNk...
Identifier (local): 19-0732_ChrisPaige
PID (Persistent Identifier): islandora:153484

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