Deborah Block oral history, 2019.

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    Do you want me to close that door.
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    Alright so
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    this is Elizabeth Wittrig and Beth Hessel interviewing Deborah Block on April 29th
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    2019. Deborah if you want to start by stating when and where you were born?
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    I was born in Milwaukee Wisconsin on December 21st 1952.
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    Can you talk about a little bit about your family dynamics growing up, any
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    religious influences that you had?
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    My parents met at church camp.
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    My dad had just come back from World War Two and his
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    congregation thought that going to church camp might be a good reentry
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    for a sailor.
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    And met my mother there.
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    They rode home together in my mother's
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    father's car and were
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    married in 1950. So two
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    Presbyterian congregations in Milwaukee
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    and that's where my roots are.
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    Were you interested in the church growing up?
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    Church was central to family
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    life. And in the late 1950s my parents
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    were involved with a group of other new couples in a new church development.
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    There was a lot of that then.
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    They had a cluster of families that rented space
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    from an Episcopal church in a Milwaukee suburb and
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    that Episcopal Church did not have Christian education
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    space. These are Presbyterians right.
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    So that was really important.
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    So they rented the legion hall across the street for
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    Sunday School space on Sunday morning which was always smoky
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    on Sunday morning from Saturday night and the ashtrays
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    were still full and the floors were sticky with beer and
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    that was just normal because that was Sunday School and there was this fabulous
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    long curved bar that we would sit at and
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    then discovered that that was just an excellent puppet stage.
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    And I do remember Abraham and Sarah going
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    long so I decided
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    I decided that I wanted to be a minister when I was in high school.
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    And I think it was a sort of a
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    natural trajectory in terms of my parents
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    vocation. They were both educators and I saw
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    the pastor in our congregation as very much an educator and
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    I just didn't know that that really wasn't something where
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    the doors were wide open to women.
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    So I found that out pretty quickly along the way but it was there
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    pretty early a sense of call.
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    Had you known any or seen any female pastors
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    before?
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    No no.
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    And it wasn't until I went to the General Assembly in 1971
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    as a youth advisory delegate that you know my eyes were open to that
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    there were other clergy women that there was a very active denominational
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    office on Women's Concerns and you
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    know what the wider movement was.
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    When you shared with your parents or did you share with your parents when you were in
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    high school that you wanted to be a pastor, or people at your church, what sort of
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    response did you get from your family and your church community?
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    I can still remember that the morning on spring
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    break we were hanging around the house and my mother was
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    cleaning the bathroom and you know that kind of hang in the doorway moment where
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    you kind of talk with a parent.
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    And I remember telling her that and she never liked
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    that memory because she was cleaning the bathroom.
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    But but I like the memory because she didn't bat an eye and
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    what she said was you should go talk to
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    our minister about that.
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    What
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    about your minister when you talked with him?
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    He said I should go to college.
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    Pragmatic. I was a junior in high school and he said well first you're going to want
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    to go to college.
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    OK then I'll do that.
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    Did that.
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    And where did you attend college?
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    I went to Carroll College then, now Carroll University in Waukesha, Wisconsin.
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    And you went with the intention of pursuing ministry?
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    Yes I did.
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    And that's a Presbyterian related college.
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    It had a wonderful religion department and there were
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    about four women who were interested in going to seminary.
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    One of them was Barbara Gattis. We
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    were all at Carroll at the same time.
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    And so during that time you went to the 71 General
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    Assembly. Were you a delegate, a commissioner, or just going out of interest?
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    I was a Youth Advisory Delegate in 1971 and then went
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    every year sometimes on on
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    the money from my tax return.
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    And then when I got to seminary went as either a
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    theological delegate whatever we were calling them
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    then or a seminary assistant which allowed
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    you to be there with your expenses paid
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    and work about twenty-two hours a day.
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    Behind the scenes.
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    What was it about General Assembly that captured you and made you want to keep going back
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    every year and be engaged in it all?
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    The bigness of the church.
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    The the justice issues.
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    I mean that's probably where I first met the
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    Gay Lesbian Equality movement was
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    at the General Assembly and the support for
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    women and feminist issues.
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    Language about God was a big issue then and
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    there were two task forces and two reports on how how
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    we think about God, how we talk about God.
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    So all of those things were just stimulating
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    and supportive.
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    In your home church growing up where justice issues central?
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    Was it a very progressive congregation and your family?
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    Did you talk about Civil Rights, the
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    environment, women's rights, those types of issues?
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    The pastor
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    was there when I was in high school college was
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    a young progressive
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    liberal anti Vietnam War and really
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    paid the price for that with a more conservative
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    congregation. He now
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    is, he and his wife, are longtime members of Immanuel
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    Church which is an interesting circling around
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    so you can see where the where the tensions were in a very real
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    way. My parents I think were always very supportive
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    of the pastor at that
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    time.
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    And then the next pastor was not supportive of my ordination and that caused their
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    rupture and eventual departure from that church that they'd been founding members
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    of.
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    So
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    then were you able during college or as you went on to seminary to find female
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    mentors within the church?
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    When I was at Carroll, Margaret
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    Towner was a pastor in a nearby area.
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    And she contacted the religion department with she'd
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    rather recently arrived there and she was rethinking their youth ministry program.
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    And so she called the college and said you know is there a student I can kind of connect
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    with to think through this.
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    And so she became my mentor.
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    In the mid 1970s and stayed as my
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    mentor and spiritual mother to this day
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    and Lois Stair was living in Waukesha.
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    And she she was so proud and supportive and
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    I would call and write while I was in seminary school.
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    Her death was a big loss to me.
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    Were there ever times that you considered not pursuing ministry because of the challenges
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    that you would face?
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    No. And but.
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    But there were times when that was a very real question among women
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    in seminary. When Rosemary Ruether walked out
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    of the church it was a real
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    question for
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    women in any in any of the religious communities whether you were a nun
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    or whether you were a seminarian or whether or not you stayed in the church
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    and women left. And I mean it was so parallel to what
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    we more recently went through with gay and lesbian persons deciding
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    to stay or leave, their straight allies deciding
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    stay or leave a church that wasn't going to be fully inclusive.
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    So that's a long standing
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    question in my own story. But I knew that
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    this was where I was called to be.
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    I'm going to
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    circle back when you talked about going to the General Assemblies in high school college
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    is really where you first connected with
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    the gay and lesbian concerns and rights groups.
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    Did you get involved with them? What was your sort of relationship there just being aware
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    of their concerns?
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    It was not involvement. It was awareness and
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    support. You know I felt very much
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    an advocacy side of that.
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    And as that issue
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    became more a part of justice conversations
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    in seminary life and at the General Assembly the
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    connection evolved and it evolved because it was so
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    similar to what women were going through, had
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    gone through in terms of the biblical arguments and the fear about the church.
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    And it was going to fall apart.
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    And we had I went to Louisville seminary.
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    And I went to Louisville seminary because at that time, that
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    was before the reunion denominationally
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    and there were some joint offices there that were doing things together
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    and that was a joint presbytery and that was kind of interesting.
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    The joint office of worship was there for instance.
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    But seminary life there was a
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    strong Southern culture component there.
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    So you know the wives of the male students were
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    convened by the wife of the president for teas and things.
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    The handful of women students who were there just
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    didn't fit that so it was
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    a time between the times. Well
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    I remember one of the wives came out.
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    And was very much in love with another woman.
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    And it was scandalous.
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    She continued in her job on campus and
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    so it was it was no longer an issue.
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    It was us.
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    It was the person that we knew who lived in the apartment down the row.
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    And
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    you know it had a face.
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    Did you
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    have any faculty or courses during seminary that you thought
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    were really central to deepening your theology or your direction
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    in ministry that you can remember?
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    I think the most instructive part of my time at Louisville Seminary was not what happened
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    in the curriculum. For one thing we organized a women's caucus
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    there. And finally we had a course on
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    women and religion there.
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    Feminist study or something.
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    And also finally got a commitment
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    from the trustees that the next hire would be a woman
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    professor. That was Joanna Boss who has just retired
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    from Louisville Seminary a year or two ago.
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    But no there was there was really not much there.
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    But what was there was this stuff brewing in these
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    denominational gatherings that were located on campus.
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    The task force on language about God had a hearing there.
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    I mean we had hearings about that.
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    Margaret Towner was the chair.
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    There were these annual women in seminary
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    conferences that were supported by the denomination.
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    There was the school
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    integration movement in Louisville.
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    That really surfaced racism in
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    a way that I had not experienced.
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    And students were very involved in that.
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    Amnesty was an issue for conscientious
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    objectors. Migrant worker
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    rights. So that was where the real learning and empowerment.
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    I think oh and the Equal Rights Amendment was up for
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    a revote in the Kentucky legislature.
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    There were states that were backing off their initial ratifications.
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    And so I had a field education
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    position called Women in Church and Society and it was funded by
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    the denomination and one of my jobs was to give
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    voice to their religious arguments for the Equal Rights Amendment.
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    So
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    how did you go about did you have a team of folks that you worked with to determine
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    those or were you in charge of coming up with them yourself?
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    What did you do?
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    Well both. I mean there were resources to denominationally but you know
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    we would get invited to talk to various groups with various
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    levels of acceptance and success.
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    We would we would go to
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    the capital for the demonstrations and just to
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    show that there was another side and that the organized
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    opposition to the Equal Rights Amendment among women was
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    I think they all wear pink all the time.
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    That was it took me it was years before I could wear pink.
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    Did you receive a lot of pushback?
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    Did it create issues for you as you were going through the ordination
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    process that you were openly feminist?
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    Oh definitely definitely.
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    Not as much as my seminary sisters who
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    were members of the Presbyterian Church U.S. who you know
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    they were having troubles at the presbytery evel that that I didn't have
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    with my home presbytery but had in the larger church.
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    They took
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    ordination exams for instance in both of those denominations because
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    they were pretty sure that they could only be ordained in what was then that UPCUSA.
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    Financial
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    aid was less, opportunities
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    for field education were almost nil.
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    Changed quickly but at that moment it was still
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    institutions hadn't realigned to this
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    new reality.
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    When do you think the shift happened?
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    Well I think the numbers helped you know help push
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    institutional change and attitudinal change and that happened quickly.
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    When I graduated in 77 and then in several
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    years you know the enrollment of women in seminary just skyrocketed.
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    Everywhere.
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    I want
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    to get at, I'm not sure how to phrase this, but the story that you were telling us
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    earlier about when you went to dinner with a search committee.
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    If you would want to share that story.
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    Well all along the way it was really hard to even get interviews.
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    When I left Louisville Seminary in July of 1977 I
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    didn't have a job. I went back to Carroll College and literally worked
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    for room and board as a dorm mother which
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    is what they were called.
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    And then later at one point.
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    When I'd been in ministry and and had some opportunities to
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    look at other positions or had contacts from other churches I
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    went through a pretty serious interview process.
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    I was taken aside before
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    a dinner interview one evening by one of the women
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    on the committee and I could tell there was some this
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    was not something that had been on the agenda for our time
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    together and I could tell that she was a little awkward and I didn't
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    know why we had to have a glass of wine before we were going out to have wine and
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    dinner. But her her probing
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    was about my personal life.
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    My sexuality. I was not married
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    and she kind of
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    blubbered about.
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    She said well we just one of the questions that we just need to
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    ask we just we just cannot we just cannot imagine why somebody
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    hasn't just gobbled you up.
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    And I was stunned at the question.
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    First of all I mean I still remember the words right.
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    Gobbled. And I had not yet shared with them
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    that I had been divorced.
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    So I thought well this is this is the moment where I need to say that and I said well
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    the fact is that that I was married
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    earlier in my life and she said oh I'm so
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    relieved and that's when I realized she was trying to figure out what
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    my sexual orientation was
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    and I think that was a thing.
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    We were talking earlier about
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    you know there is just a discomfort with women clergy
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    and I think it was more comfortable if you're
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    in that generation a number of clergy women were married to clergy
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    men and were doing
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    co-pastoring together. That was kind of a starting point.
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    And so if you're a non married woman.
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    That was just a little uncomfortable.
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    For one thing there wasn't the minister's wife.
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    I mean that role was still in some church cultures pretty
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    established and respected. So who is going to
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    do that.
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    Tell us about your your first call and maybe go into where you got to Immanuel.
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    I was at Carroll University and Immanuel Church in Milwaukee had been looking
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    for an associate pastor for some time and there
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    was another female candidate in
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    our presbytery named Laura Loving.
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    Her father was an elder at Immanuel Church and on the search committee
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    and of course he had a soft spot in his heart for
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    women who wanted to be ministers.
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    So he just thought we should that
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    the Pastor Nominating Committee just should look at my what we
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    called dossier then.
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    And they did.
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    And I was
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    hired as an assistant pastor.
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    Initially not called as an associate
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    that was a category of ministry that was still in the Book of Order.
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    It was it was second class ministry
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    because you were hired and not called.
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    You were a member of the session but maybe even
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    without a vote. And you were very your tenure was tied to the senior
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    pastor. But it is the way that a lot of women got their foot
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    in the door. So this was testing.
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    You know gender and youth were
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    I thought they're taking a big chance but they said you know if this works
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    well we'll call you in a year and they did.
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    But this is this is where this story about ordination equality
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    kind of continues. So I went
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    to the General Assembly. I used my my continuing ed time and money
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    to go to the general assembly in 1978.
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    And newly minted clergy and I thought
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    I hadn't been to the assembly for a couple of years.
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    That was a terrible assembly in terms of the treatment
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    of gay and lesbian persons as well as the issue.
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    And I was I was just aware
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    of how I mean this was the same story.
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    The ridicule, the fear.
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    All of that. So and I even took a phone call
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    in my in my hotel room after a very
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    negative decision from somebody who was a deacon at the church Immanuel Church
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    who was saying am I still a deacon.
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    Can I still be a deacon.
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    So that was my OK this is the next thing and
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    now I have the privilege of a vote.
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    Is that when you became more involved in the movement?
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    There wasn't really there wasn't really
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    a movement yet. I mean there was this organization for
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    gay and lesbian Presbyterians and parents.
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    PFLAG I think already existed
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    but I wasn't aware of an organizational
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    effort until 1997 when the Covenant
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    Network started to brew after that assembly.
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    So can you talk about how you became
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    involved in the Covenant Network?
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    Well luckily proximate location location location.
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    I was in Milwaukee and our founding meeting was in Chicago and
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    John Wilkinson knew me, John Buchanan knew me.
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    You know they were kind of calling in
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    people. There had been there had been this coalescence
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    of of effort and leaders at those assemblies in Syracuse
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    and Albuquerque.
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    And now they were pulling some people you know in a
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    larger circle. And that's when I got a phone call.
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    Would you like to come to this meeting and then we organized
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    as a board.
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    Had you been at that meeting in Syracuse?
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    No I had not nor Albuquerque.
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    And how long at this point had you been a senior pastor
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    at Immanuel?
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    I wasn't. I was in 1997, well actually in 1997 I
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    had just become the senior pastor because I was an associate and then a co-pastor
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    and then senior pastor so that was
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    all at the same time.
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    And how did your congregation respond or were you able to share with
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    them immediately that you were engaged and involved with Covenant Network?
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    Yes. Because we were we were already doing that.
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    I mean that was that was already in
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    the water in terms of studies.
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    It was our practice. I mean we didn't have any exclusion
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    with who we were ordaining as elder or deacon until the
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    rule came down and then it was an issue because we had to decide
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    whether to conform or not.
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    Our presbytery at one point said
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    we weren't we weren't going to do that.
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    We had a Senate commission come in to discipline
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    presbytery so it was a kind of
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    it got rocky.
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    But the session from the get go and all the sessions
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    all the iterations of of elders over those years were very clear
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    about their position.
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    My time to do this work and
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    our session was giving at the level of Fourth and Bryn Mawr
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    and Westminster for years.
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    Ten thousand dollars plus individual contributions
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    and my time and that was that was
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    a big focus.
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    And we never had any question about that.
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    There were people, a couple of people over the years who left the church because of the
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    the stance but there was never any issue about that component of the mission
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    budget.
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    And how did your session choose to handle then the Fidelity-Chastity.
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    Did they say we're not going to ask any questions of anybody or what
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    position did they take to navigate that?
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    We were one of those sessions that really embraced the Doug Nave materials
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    on conscience and we we very carefully examined our officers
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    and went on a record with asking the questions and
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    proceeding decently and in order.
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    When that became acute
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    was when we called an associate pastor who was a coming out gay
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    man and knew that we really were I mean that that that
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    was just that that was a little more different.
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    That was a little more of a violation than deacons and elders
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    made us subject to to action
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    and so that was 2004.
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    Was
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    a case brought against you or your congregation at all?
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    Or you were able to?
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    No. And I think some people felt either some people were
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    you know protective and ready for a challenge if that was going
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    to happen. I mean the search committee certainly was.
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    I made it clear that I
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    told this young man you know I've got your back.
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    You know. They'll have to mess with me.
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    And I suddenly felt older. You know I felt like the mama bear all of a sudden.
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    So we ordained him and I'm sure there are some people who didn't like it
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    or weren't uncomfortable or I don't know.
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    Or some people who are clueless you know because he did get introduced to
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    some nice young ladies every now and again.
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    But three years ago
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    my other colleague Jane Dow and I officiated at Rob and Greg's
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    wedding and so he is
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    now a married man and his husband is a member of the congregation.
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    And you know it just becomes who you are.
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    So then you were co-moderator of the Covenant Network during some of the early years
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    with Laird Stuart.
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    And in those years
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    there were a lot of efforts to reach across the aisle and have conversations with those
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    who disagreed with you. Can you talk a little bit about organizing those?
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    Right. This was in the early
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    2000s. I didn't know Laird Stuart until we were paired.
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    He was in a church in San Francisco where this was a reality
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    in church and in culture. Inclusiveness
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    and
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    one of the things the Covenant Network really we
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    really took upon ourselves was to initiate these kind of conversations
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    with the people we called the OPs.
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    The Other Presbyterians. And those conversations had
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    mixed success and by success I mean even
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    reciprocating the invitation to be in the same room or at
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    table together.
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    And Laird because he was in
  • speaker
    California he knew some of these
  • speaker
    guys in larger churches who were on the other side of the
  • speaker
    issue. Jerry Tankersley for instance.
  • speaker
    And he he maintained those relationships.
  • speaker
    He was a very irenic personality
  • speaker
    and a very
  • speaker
    patient but persistent personality
  • speaker
    in those in those conversations and he was respected by ypeople
  • speaker
    across the aisle so
  • speaker
    I'm sure I learned a lot from him in that regard because this was
  • speaker
    this was territory I hadn't had much experience in.
  • speaker
    These were people I did not know.
  • speaker
    So you know kind of
  • speaker
    fearlessly and maybe cluelessly treaded
  • speaker
    treaded in those waters. And there
  • speaker
    were.
  • speaker
    And that that's when I encountered for the
  • speaker
    first time women who were opposed to
  • speaker
    ordination equality and that was a surprise to me
  • speaker
    I thought how do you do that? How do you
  • speaker
    get ordained and then think that these folks can't be ordained.
  • speaker
    That really puzzled me.
  • speaker
    And then some of those women were formidable
  • speaker
    so those conversations across the aisle took place in a
  • speaker
    lot of different venues and a lot of different forms.
  • speaker
    A lot of them happened around assembly meetings.
  • speaker
    We were still meeting annually.
  • speaker
    So there were you know there was a pretty regular rhythm to our
  • speaker
    engagements.
  • speaker
    Sometimes those meetings happen sometimes they didn't.
  • speaker
    Sometimes they were testy and people walked out.
  • speaker
    Sometimes on one occasion I remember there was we got together
  • speaker
    and sat down and I think we're kind of relieved that this was gonna happen.
  • speaker
    And the leader from the other side said we don't have anything.
  • speaker
    We have nothing just to say.
  • speaker
    We do not have anything to talk about.
  • speaker
    So.
  • speaker
    We had time set up what we called sabbatical when
  • speaker
    we tried to just stand down, stay
  • speaker
    standing, but not you know try to de-escalate
  • speaker
    by lessening the
  • speaker
    well like by not going for another
  • speaker
    overture at another assembly to see if we could
  • speaker
    make some space for education, conversation,
  • speaker
    change.
  • speaker
    We had this this network of. We had a really good education
  • speaker
    network and some amazing resources I think and
  • speaker
    people who worked on
  • speaker
    our side of this issue that we're more than happy to put their scholarly
  • speaker
    and theological intellectual
  • speaker
    gifts into some really good resources that were
  • speaker
    we're very helpful to persons and congregations and
  • speaker
    presbyteries who were really willing to make the effort.
  • speaker
    What were the agendas like at these
  • speaker
    meetings that you had with the
  • speaker
    OPs? Did you have particular topics or were
  • speaker
    you trying to look more theologically? Were you trying to find common ground?
  • speaker
    Some of them were strictly relationship building
  • speaker
    you know they were that kind of fundamental organizing principle of
  • speaker
    a relationship. And so
  • speaker
    on one occasion a group
  • speaker
    of a mixed group got together
  • speaker
    and went on a retreat in the mountains of Idaho
  • speaker
    and did those kind of retreats things where we when we
  • speaker
    were careful about who was in what car and when we got there we went grocery shopping
  • speaker
    and shopped and cooked and eat together and it was pretty much
  • speaker
    pretty much that. And we would do Bible studies together.
  • speaker
    That was a key thing
  • speaker
    and sometimes we were we were looking at
  • speaker
    papers issued by that side or this side like by PFR or the Coalition.
  • speaker
    It
  • speaker
    was a mix. It was kind of depended on what the what the GA context was at the moment.
  • speaker
    And were members of More Light or That All May Freely Serve
  • speaker
    ever invited to be part of these conversations too?
  • speaker
    Was it always Covenant Network and PFR?
  • speaker
    Sometimes but I think the
  • speaker
    reality was that if the PFR or the
  • speaker
    Coalition folks we're going to talk to anyone they were going to talk to us
  • speaker
    and it's probably because they were more comfortable with straight allies.
  • speaker
    And these and these meetings conversations did you
  • speaker
    feel that you were pushed and challenged in your
  • speaker
    theological beliefs sometimes to rethink where you came from
  • speaker
    or seen things from new angles or were there things that you gained from
  • speaker
    those conversations?
  • speaker
    I think I think my change was to become a more passionate
  • speaker
    advocate.
  • speaker
    You know as I engaged in that Bible study,
  • speaker
    as fear became more candidly expressed, as
  • speaker
    I traveled around the country and met
  • speaker
    more and more gay and lesbian Presbyterians who
  • speaker
    were just watching and wanting and waiting
  • speaker
    for change, parents, and
  • speaker
    realized that you know this is this is our church.
  • speaker
    And the congregation I served was diverse
  • speaker
    but the people that were just
  • speaker
    you know that weren't leaving, that were hanging in
  • speaker
    fueled the effort.
  • speaker
    Fueled me. Fed me.
  • speaker
    Well I should also say that the relationships along the
  • speaker
    way with More Light and That All May Freely Serve were
  • speaker
    often as difficult as you know.
  • speaker
    There was that aisle two or those aisles.
  • speaker
    You know the movement was a mix and always is a mix of
  • speaker
    incrementalists and you know there are very strong voices
  • speaker
    from More Light. Justice
  • speaker
    delayed is justice denied. You know.
  • speaker
    Yes that's true. And we were
  • speaker
    we were going the same place in different ways
  • speaker
    and sometimes we sometimes the leadership of those groups kind of got
  • speaker
    that you know we knew that we needed each other.
  • speaker
    You know you do this and we'll do this and you do this with that constituency and
  • speaker
    we'll do this with you.
  • speaker
    And you know we'll pull it together and you move the middle right.
  • speaker
    Keep moving the middle. Sometimes that just worked better
  • speaker
    than other times.
  • speaker
    I did
  • speaker
    want to ask I found an article online where after
  • speaker
    Amendment-A was defeated in 2008 and 2009
  • speaker
    you said that you thought the next time was gonna be the time that it finally passed.
  • speaker
    That was prophetic because it's true.
  • speaker
    Was there anything that led you to really feel that?
  • speaker
    There was just it was an
  • speaker
    unstoppable momentum. It was a matter of when.
  • speaker
    You know every time we just got closer and
  • speaker
    the culture around us was going in that
  • speaker
    direction I think.
  • speaker
    I think there was a domestic movement that was
  • speaker
    I mean there were so many kitchen table coffee table conversations
  • speaker
    in people's homes. Children coming out.
  • speaker
    Parents coming out.
  • speaker
    I mean there was a lot of familial
  • speaker
    change happening and that you know that that
  • speaker
    went into the air and into the water and people who were having those experiences
  • speaker
    were sitting in those commissioner's chairs at the General Assembly.
  • speaker
    And and so they weren't voting at overtures and issues.
  • speaker
    They were they were voting on the people in their family and the people
  • speaker
    in their congregation.
  • speaker
    That's what changed I think.
  • speaker
    What was your primary role?
  • speaker
    The work that you did at General Assemblies yourself.
  • speaker
    I know everybody had slightly different tasks.
  • speaker
    What was the particular role that you took on?
  • speaker
    Well I served as co-moderator twice.
  • speaker
    In that earlier
  • speaker
    episode with Laird we were getting that was the first time we
  • speaker
    got an overture out in 2001.
  • speaker
    That's what we called it. Getting an overture out and the Covenant Network that year
  • speaker
    at the Pasadena conference gave Laird
  • speaker
    and me Louisville Sluggers baseball bats with our names
  • speaker
    because we batted it out.
  • speaker
    And of course that was 2001 in the fall and I had to try to get on an airplane with a
  • speaker
    baseball bat to go home which was a little tricky.
  • speaker
    So at the assemblies in in the capacity of co-moderators
  • speaker
    we had some organizational protocol
  • speaker
    roles. We were speakers at the luncheons
  • speaker
    or at various events. We were sometimes
  • speaker
    overture advocates and spoke at the hearings.
  • speaker
    We had town meetings for a couple of years that
  • speaker
    just weren't friendly.
  • speaker
    We would have a room and have this event
  • speaker
    available where Laird and I were there to answer
  • speaker
    your questions and some of that was nasty.
  • speaker
    Just nasty. And some of that nastiness were from
  • speaker
    our allies or folks who thought we were just
  • speaker
    not doing enough soon enough.
  • speaker
    Then I also assumed that role in
  • speaker
    2006.
  • speaker
    John Walton was co-moderator then and Kim
  • speaker
    Clayton had been co-moderator with him and she had
  • speaker
    to step away and
  • speaker
    that's that's when things were getting pretty pretty intense.
  • speaker
    And that's when a lot of that work with the OPs
  • speaker
    happened in that period.
  • speaker
    Particularly because
  • speaker
    I think they knew they were losing ground.
  • speaker
    When I was co-moderator with David Van Dyke
  • speaker
    we were moving into the early years of the Fellowship.
  • speaker
    The actual
  • speaker
    conversations that they were having about departure,
  • speaker
    gracious or not.
  • speaker
    So
  • speaker
    did you sit down with them at all during that to talk about
  • speaker
    their plans?
  • speaker
    Yes. Yes. And we were
  • speaker
    first of all again Covenant Network people
  • speaker
    were the ones they thought they could talk to which was interesting
  • speaker
    I also think they thought we were going to be more supportive and sympathetic
  • speaker
    because they know in their early gyrations of this
  • speaker
    they had a plan whereby they would go, then they would come back, and there would be a
  • speaker
    bridge and they keep their pensions.
  • speaker
    I mean there are a lot of moving parts if you wanted to think about departing
  • speaker
    and it was just kind of puzzling why we would be resources
  • speaker
    for their gracious exit.
  • speaker
    But it was clear that it became really clear
  • speaker
    that there were going to be some significant departures
  • speaker
    of some big churches.
  • speaker
    And there was going to be a real impact on the PC(USA)
  • speaker
    membership and financial support.
  • speaker
    We
  • speaker
    also were resources during that time.
  • speaker
    We would get calls from you know there were pastors
  • speaker
    in churches who sometimes had a head for leaving and
  • speaker
    members who just didn't really think so.
  • speaker
    You know they weren't so sure about all of this but they kind of were sure that they
  • speaker
    didn't want to leave the denomination so
  • speaker
    we would calls from some of those people which was I mean those dynamics
  • speaker
    were interesting.
  • speaker
    Ministers who wanted to go and congregations who didn't support them with the vote.
  • speaker
    So what would you say to those those congregational members if they would call you
  • speaker
    questions?
  • speaker
    Well we would provide them with some good resources but also remind
  • speaker
    them of their power as
  • speaker
    elders on Sessions, as members of congregations
  • speaker
    who were going to vote on this. And some
  • speaker
    of what the consequences would be.
  • speaker
    Buildings. That could be very persuasive in many ways.
  • speaker
    We all learned a lot about that trust clause during those years.
  • speaker
    I also heard mention of some churches that did want to leave but wanted to be sure that
  • speaker
    they would join denomination that would still allow women to become ordained.
  • speaker
    Exactly.
  • speaker
    That was a big thing because the PCA did not
  • speaker
    ordain women. Still doesn't. In fact not too
  • speaker
    many years ago they were having quite a heated debate over ordaining women as deacons.
  • speaker
    So and
  • speaker
    these male leaders, these
  • speaker
    fellowship guys who call themselves the seven dwarfs.
  • speaker
    They were tall too. It was kind of an interesting.
  • speaker
    How did they get that name?
  • speaker
    There were seven of them.
  • speaker
    And I think I think they just duped themselves that.
  • speaker
    But they were clear about that.
  • speaker
    They were clear that. They did not that the PCA was not going to be an option
  • speaker
    for them.
  • speaker
    They you know that was
  • speaker
    that again I didn't get that. I didn't get that the
  • speaker
    ordination of women was something that they needed to hang on to
  • speaker
    but they couldn't go with some of the same biblical stuff to the ordination of gay and
  • speaker
    lesbian persons men or women.
  • speaker
    So I think that's that's where
  • speaker
    that in part you know fueled the new thing.
  • speaker
    The ECO thing was that they would.
  • speaker
    And in one
  • speaker
    Pam Byers used to quote this all the time, somebody
  • speaker
    saying to the effect you know we're we're taking our
  • speaker
    cattle and our women and our children. You know they needed to make
  • speaker
    sure all their resources came along with them.
  • speaker
    You know we've talked quite a bit about you know some of this that happened after
  • speaker
    ordination was passed. But can you talk a little bit about some of the celebrations that
  • speaker
    happened once there was full inclusion of gay and lesbian Presbyterians?
  • speaker
    Well you know at our assemblies we're very civil.
  • speaker
    You know we don't applaud things
  • speaker
    even deep big things that pass.
  • speaker
    So there was this
  • speaker
    sort of strange silence.
  • speaker
    I mean in the moment of passage.
  • speaker
    Some people cried on both
  • speaker
    sides. We were
  • speaker
    more restrained than we wanted to be.
  • speaker
    We were overjoyed. This was a long time.
  • speaker
    And
  • speaker
    not just I mean not just our organization but a long time.
  • speaker
    So I
  • speaker
    think we did that in a kind of private way.
  • speaker
    We did it in a more public way just just now with with our symposium
  • speaker
    in April of 2019.
  • speaker
    Many years later.
  • speaker
    I think one of the persons who just just rejoiced
  • speaker
    was Cindy Bolboch. Cindy Bolboch was such a she started a
  • speaker
    chapter of something that was local and kind of akin to
  • speaker
    Covenant Network in Washington D.C. In the national capital
  • speaker
    and Susan Andrews was there
  • speaker
    then and Terry Thomas.
  • speaker
    There was just a magnificent cluster of people who
  • speaker
    pulled that together and then they kind of came into the Covenant Network
  • speaker
    but Cindy was such a supporter
  • speaker
    and she was just a joyful person you know.
  • speaker
    She even her adversaries enjoyed her.
  • speaker
    So I'm so glad that this happened while she was
  • speaker
    moderator and so was she.
  • speaker
    How about
  • speaker
    your congregation when you came home? Was there a celebration at
  • speaker
    Immanuel?
  • speaker
    I think there was just relief.
  • speaker
    You know sometimes a big part of joy is is relief.
  • speaker
    I had been a candidate for moderator the
  • speaker
    year of the Peace, Unity, Purity report and
  • speaker
    I remember how after
  • speaker
    that assembly how disappointed they were about the modern moratorium
  • speaker
    vote but how elated we all were about the task
  • speaker
    force report because it gave us it just gave us a
  • speaker
    whole new foundation to do this, to do this work.
  • speaker
    So a lot of the Covenant
  • speaker
    Network board members ran for moderator.
  • speaker
    Was that an intentional strategy or it just happened?
  • speaker
    I
  • speaker
    think there were. I think both and. There were leaders in
  • speaker
    the church who were affiliated with the Covenant Network.
  • speaker
    I think of Frieda Gardner. Frieda Gardner's election to the office of moderator
  • speaker
    was just a total surprise to people.
  • speaker
    And she was a wonderful moderator and very much an
  • speaker
    advocate for all kinds of equality.
  • speaker
    John Buchanan of course.
  • speaker
    Laird Stuart stood for moderator.
  • speaker
    Susan Andrews.
  • speaker
    So there was there were. Jack Rogers.
  • speaker
    Yes. So we had some really fine moderators and
  • speaker
    some some good efforts.
  • speaker
    Do you feel during those years that even
  • speaker
    as there was that real legislative focus and push on changing the
  • speaker
    Book of Order that the GA tended
  • speaker
    to elect more progressive or moderate?
  • speaker
    Or were they electing conservative moderators?
  • speaker
    Was the GA speaking in a way by who they elected as moderators where they saw the church going?
  • speaker
  • speaker
    Well it was interesting the year of the Peace, Unity, Purity report and of course
  • speaker
    you do the moderator election first and of the
  • speaker
    four candidates that stood that year there was the full spectrum between
  • speaker
    yes now and no never.
  • speaker
    And the person
  • speaker
    who was elected that year was a you know this was an opponent.
  • speaker
    And I don't think so.
  • speaker
    So that at the end of that assembly was an interesting mix.
  • speaker
    It was a dissonance actually and
  • speaker
    that was not a moderator who was willing to take that
  • speaker
    Peace, Unity, and Purity report and feed it to the church or interpret it.
  • speaker
    So then I was gonna ask you became the first female chair of the Presbyterian
  • speaker
    Publishing Corporation board.
  • speaker
    How did that come about?
  • speaker
    I think it was interestingly Bob Bohl who was our
  • speaker
    founding co-moderator of the Covenant Network was also
  • speaker
    a chair of the Presbyterian Publishing Corporation.
  • speaker
    And I think he was chairing it when I was invited to be on that board.
  • speaker
    I think that was in Denver at the Denver assembly.
  • speaker
    And then.
  • speaker
    And then I became the chair.
  • speaker
    It was a very interesting time in the Publishing Corporation's
  • speaker
    story because after the 2008 economic
  • speaker
    situation we were trying to we were trying
  • speaker
    to do this new hymnal and the financial resources
  • speaker
    for research and development were hard to come by
  • speaker
    and hard to persuade
  • speaker
    so that project did go forward.
  • speaker
    Glory to God. And.
  • speaker
    And the Publishing Corporation also was very
  • speaker
    I think a great partner in in providing
  • speaker
    good materials. You know they were they were unabashed about publishing Jack
  • speaker
    Rogers and Mark Meyer and some of these
  • speaker
    some of these things that were just really important to have
  • speaker
    in study groups all over the church.
  • speaker
    So we had we had
  • speaker
    John Buchanan was also chaired that board after I did
  • speaker
    and yeah I think they
  • speaker
    were important partners still. And
  • speaker
    I'll shout I'll give a shout out to McCormick Seminary because you know as
  • speaker
    Cynthia Campbell as president at McCormick Seminary served on the Covenant Network
  • speaker
    board and she was willing to do that.
  • speaker
    And I think some seminary presidents just thought that was either inappropriate
  • speaker
    or something that wasn't going to fly with their you know their board or their
  • speaker
    donors. And after Cynthia served
  • speaker
    on the Covenant Network board
  • speaker
    that was an important modeling for students.
  • speaker
    I mean it was important in terms of what they brought to what we were doing but
  • speaker
    along the way I thought that was really important for students
  • speaker
    to see that kind of witness from leadership in theological
  • speaker
    education. And a lot of our board members
  • speaker
    came out of McCormick Seminary and I think that public ministry and justice
  • speaker
    orientation is just in the curricular
  • speaker
    DNA.
  • speaker
    And you've done teaching at McCormick.
  • speaker
    What have you what were the courses or the program in which you taught?
  • speaker
    I taught in the Doctor of Ministry program for a number of years as an adjunct
  • speaker
    professor and then
  • speaker
    McCormack at one time had a theologian in residents kind of chair
  • speaker
    in ministry and I did that.
  • speaker
    Took a sabbatical from my work at Immanuel Church and did that for
  • speaker
    a year and a half.
  • speaker
    Taught ministry to people who wanted to be ministers.
  • speaker
    Taught them those things that you go oh
  • speaker
    nobody taught me this.
  • speaker
    So I want to circle back thinking about how you went to Louisville because it was
  • speaker
    the center for the joint work on reuniting north
  • speaker
    and south. And then you've been to every General Assembly.
  • speaker
    Talk about that General Assembly when the reunion General Assembly
  • speaker
    and what that meant for you, what hopes, what concerns.
  • speaker
    Oh it
  • speaker
    was historical right. And I think people had a sense in the happening that
  • speaker
    it was historical.
  • speaker
    I was at an assembly in Louisville in maybe 1974 where the
  • speaker
    two churches were having their assemblies literally back
  • speaker
    to back. And that was such a big deal and we would worship together and
  • speaker
    so when the final Reunion came I mean that too was a long time
  • speaker
    in the making but full disclosure
  • speaker
    I voted against reunion.
  • speaker
    I voted against reunion in my presbytery because of
  • speaker
    what I heard from black Presbyterians about
  • speaker
    their sense of loss of place and power in the church.
  • speaker
    And because the new Book of Order allowed
  • speaker
    for women not to be ordained.
  • speaker
    There was a 15 year period where we were still expendable
  • speaker
    and I thought that should not have been the
  • speaker
    negotiating point. A little bit like in the new
  • speaker
    confession when it was new.
  • speaker
    The line about calls women and men to all ministries in the church.
  • speaker
    And that was going to be a deal breaker for some people.
  • speaker
    That paragraph in that Book of Order was a deal breaker for me.
  • speaker
    If you think back on your life in ministry
  • speaker
    so far which is far from done but where you are at this moment
  • speaker
    in time have you thought about your legacy at all?
  • speaker
    And the meaning of the work and commitments that you have
  • speaker
    made and there affect in your
  • speaker
    local church, your community, your larger church.
  • speaker
    I
  • speaker
    never thought that having women ministers
  • speaker
    in any sized church would be normative
  • speaker
    and it gives me great joy. When
  • speaker
    I was on the board at McCormick you know to see the women students
  • speaker
    and it was the norm and women of color
  • speaker
    the norm. The fact that at Immanuel Church
  • speaker
    next month one of my colleagues will retire.
  • speaker
    The clergy woman has been with us for 17 years
  • speaker
    and we had we had this amazing
  • speaker
    collegial partnership.
  • speaker
    Two women which
  • speaker
    became the norm. I mean because it was just so long standing and I
  • speaker
    know I like to hear that from children.
  • speaker
    The world is reflected in the language of children.
  • speaker
    And that's their normal world.
  • speaker
    So that's good.
  • speaker
    Church is harder work than it has ever been.
  • speaker
    And we have work to do to
  • speaker
    proclaim to the culture that church is not
  • speaker
    the Republican Party as the last PEW
  • speaker
    survey showed that's why people identify with church going.
  • speaker
    You know I really hope that this kindn of new PC(USA)
  • speaker
    will embrace a new generation
  • speaker
    of these folks who are really justice oriented.
  • speaker
    I mean they get that. So I hope they can help.
  • speaker
    I hope that can all come together in some new form of church and be
  • speaker
    you know Calvin's transforming influence in the world.
  • speaker
    I think
  • speaker
    that might be a good place to end.
  • speaker
    Thank you so much Deborah.
  • speaker
    Oh thank you for doing this.
  • speaker
    I am so thrilled.
Details
Title

Deborah Block oral history, 2019.

Description

Deborah Block was in the first generation of women who were ordained in the United Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A. She graduated from Carroll College in 1974 and began ordained ministry in 1978 at Immanuel Presbyterian Church (Milwaukee, WI). Deborah became an advocate for LGBTQ rights at the 1978 General Assembly and went on to serve as co-moderator of the Covenant Network.

Creator

Block, Deborah. (interviewee)
Wittrig, Elizabeth L. (interviewer)

Date

2019
April 29, 2019

Type of resource

moving image

Genre

oral histories
interviews

Form

born digital
video recordings

Extent

1.61 GB (1 MP4 file)

Subject names

Covenant Network of Presbyterians.
Block, Deborah.

Topics

Homosexuality--Religious aspects--Presbyterian Church.
Ordination of gays.
Ordination of lesbians.

Geographic subjects

North and Central America--United States

Rights status

IN COPYRIGHT; http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/

Physical location

ARCHIVES 19-0505; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA

Related item

Covenant Network: The Early Years reunion records, 2019.--http://prestohost68.inmagic.com/Presto/content/Detail.aspx?ctID=Y2RiNWNk...

Identifier (local)

19-0505_CovenantNetwork_DB

PID (Persistent Identifier)

islandora:153479

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