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Peggy Meeker and Marie Gibson oral history, 2019.
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- speakerAll right. Well this is June 1st 2019.
- speakerAnd it's Elizabeth Wittrig interviewing Marie Gibson and Peggy Meeker.
- speakerIf you both just want to talk a little bit about how you became involved in the movement
- speakerfor LGBTQ inclusion in the church or in
- speakerRochester it's up to you.
- speakerWell I came out in
- speaker1974. So it was it was
- speakerwhen a lot was happening in Rochester in terms of
- speakerorganizational stuff getting started and
- speakerparades and protests and things like that and I was involved in
- speakersome of that. But at the same
- speakertime I was in a
- speakernew relationship. And so I didn't I wasn't one of the people who
- speakerwas most involved because I was paying attention to other things
- speakertoo. But it but I do remember things like the parade
- speakerwhere we wore paper bags on our heads because most people couldn't be out.
- speakerAnd it was to make that statement you know that it wasn't safe to be out
- speakerand protesting against Anita Bryant although I can't remember when that
- speakerwas what year. But some of those things and I know you
- speakerI believe you're going to see the exhibit at the library.
- speakerSo that tells a lot of that local history.
- speakerAnd you were there for some of that.
- speakerI was there for some of that. Yeah.
- speakerAnd I remember a lot of the firsts. Like the first like Tim Manes for
- speakerexample the first elected city official
- speakerthat sort of thing.
- speakerAnd then in the 90s I started to follow
- speakerwhat was going on here.
- speakerI don't know exactly what the dates are.
- speakerMaybe you know for when they called Janie Spahr and it didn't.
- speakerOK. Early 90s.
- speakerSo I followed that sort of from a distance because I wasn't
- speakerpart of any church at that point.
- speakerHad you been a part of a church. I actually see it as a little girl I was part
- speakerof one of the churches that makes this church up now.
- speakerAnd then my family moved out of Rochester and I grew up Presbyterian.
- speakerI became Episcopalian and we both have kind of
- speakercheckered religious histories. I became a Episcopalian for a while.
- speakerIn my in my teenage years and early college years I
- speakerbecame fundamentalist. And then in my 20s I decided I
- speakerdidn't want any kind of religion in my life.
- speakerI felt like I had to turn away
- speakerfrom God in order to be a lesbian.
- speakerTo be who I was.
- speakerAnd like I would deal with God later.
- speakerAnd so then it wasn't until I forgotten whether
- speakerI'm answering the question you asked but OK so it
- speakerwasn't until 96 when the woman that
- speakerI was partnered with then became sick with cancer that I started
- speakerto look again for a spiritual home.
- speakerAnd this was this was the first place I looked and I started
- speakerattending here in 98 and then I brought, then
- speakerafter I met her, my partner died and
- speakerI met her a bit after that.
- speakerAnd I brought her here and we were very active for
- speakera few years together but in 2003 I decided
- speakerI was really Unitarian Universalist.
- speakerSo I was actually in seminary at the time.
- speakerI sort of did that as part of my whole life looking for
- speakerspiritual grounding and I ended up deciding
- speakerthat I first I first I decided I wanted to be
- speakera minister and I did start the process in the Presbyterian Church
- speakerbut then I decided I could not really represent
- speakerthe creed.
- speakerSo I was ready to fight the
- speakeryou know the battle about being out and being a minister who was lesbian
- speakerbut I no longer really belonged here.
- speakerSo. So that sort of that's my story.
- speakerThat's part of it. It's it's really goes a lot deeper and a lot farther.
- speakerPeg came to the movement way before I did.
- speakerI didn't come out till the 90s.
- speakerI had had I went through that traditional life, get
- speakermarried, have children.
- speakerTo a man she means.
- speakerOh right. And then later we get
- speakermarried to each other. So that was fun. And that's
- speakersomething that we need to talk about too because that was very important to this church
- speakerto be one of the first Presbyterian churches in this area to
- speakerstart marrying same gender people.
- speakerOurs was the first same gender wedding here.
- speakerThat's right.
- speakerWhen was that?
- speakerAugust August 11th 2011.
- speakerNo I'm sorry. August 27 2011.
- speakerYeah right. I should know.
- speakerI'm not sure of the day. But but yes it's my pass code on our
- speakerphone I mean.
- speakerBut it was very exciting and we we were going
- speakerto do something small and it kind of got away from us though and we ended up having a big
- speakerwedding here. The church was packed actually.
- speakerAnd and and people cheered and it was amazing.
- speakerIt was yeah it was really something I'll move into that
- speakerbut I want to go back to
- speakerwhere I started.
- speakerI came out I said in the 90s and
- speakerI didn't have any mentors.
- speakerI didn't know how to even move in to
- speakerthe LGBTQ community. I was clueless. So having
- speakermet Peg then we were introduced by a friend.
- speakerShe was my guide and she was my strength in terms of being
- speakerfaithfully who I was and not being afraid because people
- speakerwho live in fear are not wholly who they are.
- speakerSo so that was probably a number one thing.
- speakerAnd I was raised Roman Catholic.
- speakerMarried as a straight woman into the Protestant
- speakercommunity as a Presbyterian was was married in the Presbyterian Church.
- speakerAnd then after divorce and all that and starting to come out I
- speakerfelt a bit alienated like I didn't belong.
- speakerSo you know ironically through this whole thing I
- speakerwent to work for the Council of Churches in the city and and
- speakerthey never addressed the issues of
- speakerhomosexuality.
- speakerIt was something they said Oh yeah yeah it's OK.
- speakerBut nobody ever addressed it. No one supported the movement at that
- speakertime in the 90s.
- speakerSo it's interesting I I had to come out to our board of directors because
- speakeragain being with Peg I had to be brave.
- speakerI mean I felt like I could be brave and that
- speakerwas an interesting kind of experience I'm not going to say too much about that I think
- speakerat the time the questions that were asked of me of the
- speakerboard president were inappropriate. But I didn't know.
- speakerSo I just continued to do my work and
- speakerdo what I could within the faith community being who I was but kind of being hidden also.
- speakerA little bit in the closet maybe the door was open a little bit but it was
- speakerstill in a closet.
- speakerThose were very different times.
- speakerIt was different. I mean even the 90s you know really when you think of it it's
- speakernot that long ago. I mean it is for millenniums but you know but
- speakerfor most people it's not that long ago.
- speakerSo much has changed so quickly.
- speakerSo.
- speakerSo what I wanted to say was then I sort of I
- speakerbacked away from organized religion and so Peg comes to me and says I you know I really I
- speakerreally would like to go back to church and I'm thinking I mean okay I came out and I've
- speakerbeen brave you want me to go back to the church now.
- speakerSo she says let's try to the Downtown
- speakerPresbyterian.
- speakerI said oh OK why not.
- speakerShe was Presbyterian I had been Presbyterian it was familiar for me.
- speakerSo see the clincher here is Janie Spahr was here then.
- speakerAnd so they said we got to talk to Janie Spahr.
- speakerSo we go up the stairs and had you known Janie before or did we meet her at the same time?
- speaker
- speakerI think I had met her but I don't know for sure.
- speakerAll right. So she's up on fourth floor maybe.
- speakerCan I add something?
- speakerOh sure.
- speakerSo before this happened I had to come to the church maybe four
- speakeror five six times now and then.
- speakerAnd every single time I came I heard some reference
- speakerto LGBTQ something that made me
- speakerfeel welcome. I just thought it'd be a nice thing to add.
- speakerIt was not always the same people.
- speakerI think Diane Lovin was here at first.
- speakerBut but it was either somebodies anniversary
- speakeror there was just something.
- speakerWell there was a statement every Sunday morning.
- speakerJust as worship started saying that everyone is welcome and the words
- speakerwere said all people are welcome.
- speakerLGBT. So the words were said it wasn't just this kind of milky
- speakertype of thing oh everybody's welcome. You know specifically the
- speakerLGBTQ people are welcome here so.
- speakerAnd people were very open and honest to the community and in the congregation.
- speakerBut I want to go back to meeting Janie because this was
- speakerbefore I wanted to join the church.
- speakerI mean I would come I would come for Peg but it wasn't really in
- speakermy heart at the time. So we go upstairs and we meet
- speakerJanie. She sits us down and Peggy's talking and and
- speakeryou know Peg is excited about joining the church and Janie is saying yes yes yes
- speakeryes.
- speakerWell I'm in seminary I kind of need a church.
- speakerYeah you're in what. No you weren't in seminary yet no.
- speakerScratch that part.
- speakerSo
- speakerJanie turns to me and she says now what about you.
- speakerAnd I said I don't know.
- speakerThere's just the organized church has been so oppressive
- speakerto so many people in so many ways.
- speakerAnd even though I you know I came to the Presbyterian Church I chose it truly
- speakerout of the Angela Davis movement and you probably know about that being
- speakersomewhat of an archivist. I thought man if a church could stand up like that
- speakerand that's the place I want to be.
- speakerAnd so now I'm talking to an icon.
- speakerJanie Spahr. She wasn't one then but she would soon be one.
- speakerBut well anyway what I want to say is that she
- speakersaid to me she looks at me. You know when she looks at you she connects
- speakerwith you. Eye to eye. Heart to heart.
- speakerAnd and she said but don't you want to be a part
- speakerof the grass roots movement that changes things?
- speakerWell you're gonna say no to Janie Spahr.
- speakerNo you're going to say yes. Well of course.
- speakerAnd honestly she did.
- speakerShe hooked me immediately was like this little thread of enthusiasm.
- speakerYes I do.
- speakerI do want to be a part of this.
- speakerAnd so we joined the church you know.
- speakerI don't know if you remember but we're standing up
- speakerthere. And were we the only ones that joined on that day?
- speakerDidn't Jim and Diana?
- speakerNo they were a little bit a little bit after.
- speakerOh OK well I don't know. But we join the church and after you know whatever
- speakerit is says and do you believe in do you do that.
- speakerYeah yeah yeah yeah. You are now members.
- speakerAnd everybody stood up and clapped.
- speakerI don't know why.
- speakerWell they loved us. But we were very welcomed.
- speakerRight. I think. And that is and that is
- speakerwhat happens here.
- speakerAnd when you have a congregation that's that loving and that open and that
- speakeraccepting of you and you have a spark like Janie Spahr.
- speakerShe's just a spark and it's very you
- speakerget caught up in it.
- speakerSo yeah. So I continued to work for the Council of Churches.
- speakerOne of the things that that I think being in this atmosphere
- speakerhere at the Downtown Presbyterian Church is that
- speakerit's very even during the times when there was the hostility
- speakerand there was the fighting and enough fighting but yeah the contention
- speakerin trying to stand up for our rights.
- speakerThere was never the thought that you there was something wrong
- speakerwith you. You were right. We were right.
- speakerThe congregation is right in what we're doing.
- speakerAnd so you know and we always had
- speakerwonderful pastors that were strong and and stood up with us
- speakereven even those that were were not that we're heterosexual new to the game
- speakernew to the game. Yeah. You know so.
- speakerAnd I remember struggling with the Presbytery.
- speakerYou know we
- speakerhad to struggle with the status quo you know because
- speakerthere were churches out there that were contemporary or yeah
- speakerconservative is the word.
- speakerAnd and didn't want to.
- speakerSo that's how they initially lost Janie Spahr.
- speakerBut we didn't lose her.
- speakerWe redesigned her and she went off and we supported her and she's
- speakerstill doing that work. God bless her even in her retirement.
- speakerSo you know I always feel a little guilty now that I'm retired that I'm not quite doing
- speakerat that level the Janie Spahr is doing but.
- speakerSo I don't know.
- speakerI think
- speakerprobably the most exciting thing was our wedding. You know and getting the license there
- speakertoo.
- speakerThe line. The day, was it the exact day?
- speakerWas it June or something that that Monroe County said Yeah.
- speakerYou can get your license now even if you are gay.
- speakerWhich is just across the street from here.
- speakerYeah. So we had
- speakerto stand in line with everyone else.
- speakerThere was a long line down the street.
- speakerAnd this church the pastor, Pat
- speakerYoungdahl and her wife
- speakerMichael Mackenzie and some other folks that
- speakerwere stood with a banner outside.
- speakerYou know wasn't there the day that they stood with a banner?
- speakerI think so and had a reception over here and escorted sometimes they
- speakerescorted because there were folks out there that are protesting, yelling.
- speakerEscorted folks
- speakerover here and had a celebratory of some
- speakerkind of a tiny service.
- speakerIt was like a little ceremony a little ritual of of recognition or blessings.
- speakerYeah but I mean I remember that.
- speakerAnd it wasn't just Presbyterians at that time.
- speakerThey were welcoming everybody. So you know that there again that's that's
- speakerthe good
- speakerthing about this congregation. And our Presbytery came along eventually.
- speakerI mean you know they opened up. I remember going to G.A.
- speakerDo you remember going to G.A.?
- speakerOh yes.
- speakerThis is a story to tell I think. I don't remember it it
- speakerwas in the early 2000s I want
- speakerto say 2001 or 2002. I don't remember exactly but it was gonna be the vote on whether
- speakerthey would take that.
- speakerOh please tell me.
- speakerThey said that G something something that's in
- speakerthe Book of Order.
- speakerThey wanted to be able to. Up to this point you could a
- speakerLGBT person could not fully
- speakerworship. Well you could worship in the church but you couldn't be an elder or you know
- speakerthere were certain ways you couldn't be a minister all those things.
- speakerWhich of course this church we we did it anyway.
- speakerCan I say that?
- speakerAgain you know I mean we kind
- speakerof worked for God as opposed to the establishment.
- speakerWe both were elders right.
- speakerRight. But this whatever this resolution was it
- speakercame up more than one year. But one of those years.
- speakerWell this was the year that they were sure it
- speakerwas going to pass.
- speakerAll I remember was I
- speakerwas sitting next to someone who was against it. She did not believe in you
- speakerknow the LGBT movement. Oh we were good people.
- speakerDon't get me wrong but we really shouldn't be leaders in the church and
- speakerall I remember was it the year that it passed?
- speakerI don't believe it did.
- speakerOK so it didn't pass and I
- speakerwas so disappointed. I mean but this woman she felt so
- speakerbad.
- speakerI mean because we we were just crushed.
- speakerShe knew that we had come in as partners and and and I don't know it was like maybe
- speakersomething had changed in her.
- speakerMaybe she saw that we weren't. We were just normal people.
- speakerWe connected with people right at that in those assemblies.
- speakerYeah. And there was it was a real big struggle but
- speakerI think that it was it was the time that hearts were beginning to change
- speakerand not only hearts but minds in some ways because that's how I felt about the
- speakerwoman next to me I believed her heart was was was with us.
- speakerBut her mind because of the polity and all that was saying oh no I can't
- speakerlet you do this. I mean I can do it but you can't do it.
- speakerAnd I think that it was that kind of little moving
- speakertoward the change that eventually got people to vote
- speakerin the coming years and say Yeah OK.
- speakerThis is this is ok. It's time for us to change.
- speakerSo do you remember the Lord's Prayer being said in all the different languages? That
- speakerwas very moving and it was a symbol of unity
- speakerand diversity and all that.
- speakerI don't remember at what point in the G.A.
- speakerthat happened but this huge huge
- speakercongregation of people all saying the same thing in different languages.
- speakerWorking with the church community I knew where I could be out and
- speakerI knew where I could not be out and
- speakerit's funny I tell the story
- speakeragain because my life was an open book in
- speakermost cases. I never thought about the differences
- speakerin people. Oh this congregation is a gay congregation and this congregation
- speakeris a straight one. And I remember this is a funny
- speakerstory and then I want to get back to our wedding.
- speakerThat's important.
- speakerI remember we had Metropolitan Community Church here in the city.
- speakerThe majority of folks are either LGBTQ and
- speakerthey were moving and they were going into a building and they needed
- speakersupplies and things like that and people would call my office and the
- speakerministers and I would call and say gee you know so and so has a piano, we
- speakerhave an organ do they want you know and then.
- speakerSo this Mormon Church calls me right and the Mormon Church says you
- speakerknow what we're we're leaving this building and we've got these really nice pews
- speakerand we hate to just throw them away.
- speakerYou know anyone that would like these pews?
- speakerAnd I'm thinking hey the MCC church.
- speakerYeah.
- speakerThey just bought a building I'm not thinking to myself Mormon and gay
- speakerchurch I'm not thinking so.
- speakerAnd I know both of the pastors equally well.
- speakerSo I said oh yeah I'm put you in touch with so-and-so and I know cause I
- speakergot out of the middle, I just put them together and I then
- speakerafterwards I'm sitting in my office and I'm thinking what the heck did you do.
- speakerYou could start a little war between.
- speakerWell it wasn't anything like that.
- speakerIt was like it was like needs that were meet.
- speakerThe people in the Mormon Church said well of course yeah you can have our pews
- speakerand even helped move them. And the funny interesting thing is
- speakerthe story got told in a local newspaper.
- speakerAnd it show
- speakerReverend Ron Helms. What a sweet guy.
- speakerGod bless him.
- speakerHe's moved out of the area now but he's sitting up it shows
- speakera picture of him sitting on those pews and you know on the people page, on the C
- speakersection, it says Mormon Church Gives Pews to Gay Community.
- speakerAnd you know it's like but that
- speakeris how the spirit moves you see if you have an open heart
- speakerthe spirit moves and things like that happen.
- speakerBeing at that level working at that level in the ecumenical community you
- speakerknow I I never thought I mean well I did think I used to say to myself
- speakerour board needs more LGBT people here.
- speakerAnd so as as this movement was opening up we were
- speakerbringing in LGBT people onto the board.
- speakerThe only thing I regret is that
- speakerthe organization wasn't more verbal in its support.
- speakerYou know it just quietly did its thing and in some ways
- speakeryou know when you're too quiet it's not always a good thing.
- speakerYou need to have the faith to stand up
- speakerto what you believe in.
- speakerI mean I think those of us that are that follow teachings
- speakerof Jesus and that was his whole life was about.
- speakerIts core you know and why we stand away from that.
- speakerI'll never know. But anyway it's all fear of fear
- speakerwill do funny things for people but having the support and the love of a congregation
- speakerof of a partner a soul mate
- speakergives you strength to be who you are.
- speakerSo yes so we get married here and again now
- speakerI never thought all the people in our organization would
- speakercome to our wedding because some of them were not in the same place as the Presbyterian
- speakerChurch.
- speakerWhich is why they didn't really come right out and support.
- speakerThat's right. Because they couldn't.
- speakerIt would have been too divisive.
- speakerBecause the system that they were in said you can't do this so
- speakerwell but when we turned around and looked you know we were
- speakeryou know you said Yeah I do yeah I do and all that and we turn around and it's like I
- speakersuddenly realized in this congregation were people from all
- speakerdenominations.
- speakerI mean people from the Roman Catholic Diocese I mean diocese people
- speakeryou know people from the Methodist Church very all.
- speakerAnd of course our families were there you know and my
- speakerchildren.
- speakerDid we have grandchildren at that time?
- speakerYeah. Yeah. Of course they were in our wedding.
- speakerSorry I forgot about them.
- speakerYeah. We had a ring bearer in a little we had flower girl.
- speakerWe had a bagpiper.
- speakerLee Wright who is the music minister of this church is amazing.
- speakerHe and a bagpiper and he'd never met before and he says Oh yeah I could do this the
- speakerHighland.
- speakerWell he said if we're in tune. Got to find out if were in tune.
- speakerBut this is a friend of mine from college you know who had taken
- speakerup bagpipe and kind of hinted that we would need a bagpipe at our wedding.
- speakerSo she's a lesbian too.
- speakerYes she is.
- speakerA lesbian bagpiper in the Presbyterian Church.
- speakerNow that says it all doesn't it.
- speakerJust about. But it was an amazing day
- speakerfrom something that we had thought we might do in our backyard or or whatever.
- speakerYeah. To a big church wedding.
- speakerYeah. I never would have imagined it.
- speakerEven ten years earlier in fact there was a time at the church that
- speakerthe UU church that I ended up going to in 2003.
- speakerThat's another part of the story. I get her to join this church and then
- speakerfive years later I leave because I think I'm really
- speakerUnitarian Universalist.
- speakerBut anyway the church that I ended up going to was First Universalist which is also
- speakerin downtown it's just up by George Washington Square.
- speakerFirst Universalist minister and I can't say what year this was.
- speakerGeorge Tiger started coming out in support of equal marriage.
- speakerThat was one of the places where meetings would take place.
- speakerAnd he stirred the pot and got things going.
- speakerAnd when I first I went to one of those meetings to learn what it was all about and I
- speakerwasn't excited about it at first because in
- speakerthe gay culture that formed me
- speakermarriage you know marriage wasn't an option.
- speakerAnd so we came to think of it as not something we wanted.
- speakerAnd we had our own way of doing things and we that
- speakerwas not an institution we needed to be part of.
- speakerBut somewhere along the line in those first few months of the meetings and stuff
- speakerI suddenly thought maybe I don't need to
- speakerbe a second class citizen anymore or something like that.
- speakerIt was you could participate in something that that all people
- speakerin the community were doing or could do if they wanted.
- speakerYeah. So I started fighting for that.
- speakerAnd and I had to pull her along because she had been married before.
- speakerAll right I been there done that.
- speakerAnd it didn't work. You know but I got down
- speakeron my knees.
- speakerBut she did not really want a church wedding and yet
- speakerthings just started rolling in that direction.
- speakerAnd we met with Pat and and our children said
- speakerWell of course you're going to have flowers and of course our neighbor our neighbor
- speakerwho caters. She said Of course you're going to have a reception.
- speakerSo it all. Yeah.
- speakerSo it was quite a celebratory event for us in the church.
- speakerIt was the most it was the happiest day of my life.
- speakerI you know I reason I.
- speakerWell I think I want to bring us up to the current time
- speakernow that so many things are mainstream.
- speakerThere is to struggle for it anymore.
- speakerAnd yet we still do.
- speakerI mean I can go back to that silence people that are
- speakerliving in silence, families that are living in silence
- speakermostly because of religious convictions
- speakerand struggling children are being disowned, young
- speakerpeople that are committing suicide because they they believe
- speakerthat they are not something's wrong with them.
- speakerYou know this is this is the reason
- speakerinitially back in the 90s I pulled away from organized religion
- speakerbecause it can be such a cruel thing and it's so established
- speakerin human life.
- speakerIt's like hey we've got to somehow keep working
- speakeropening up the hearts and in the minds and the people thinking that
- speakerthere is nothing wrong with you.
- speakerYou know now we know we're moving into this this amazing
- speakerplace where you've got we've got the trans movement,
- speakerthe non-binary movement you know we've got all
- speakersorts of things opening up.
- speakerAnd that's important because these are people's lives these
- speakerare who they are and they need to be welcomed and they need to nourished.
- speakerYes.
- speakerAnd the church I think needs to say this
- speakeris not a requisite for you to come into the sanctuary
- speakerthat you be like everybody else.
- speakerYou know you need to be able to come in
- speakerand to sit with us and sing with us and worship with us.
- speakerAnd you are wholly who you are because God made
- speakerall of us. So maybe that's too simple but
- speakerat least we need to continue to keep working at it.
- speakerIt's not fixed just because we can get married.
- speakerI mean there's still still violence going on in the LGBT community.
- speakerExclusion heartbreak.
- speakerYou know suicides.
- speakerSo we just can't stop.
- speakerWe can't let people think it's still OK.
- speakerIt's not so.
- speakerAnd I hope the Presbyterian Church continues to the More
- speakerLight movement is great. You know they're
- speakerdoing some good work and I hope that they will continue to to
- speakerbe in the movement and to not let it just fade away.
- speakerYou know.
- speakerYou probably had other questions.
- speakerI think we've about gone through them all. I think this actually might be a good place to
- speakerstop unless there's anything else you want to add?
- speakerI don't know you get ot be my age it kind of all blends together.
- speakerTonight when I'm trying to go to sleep I'll think oh I should have said
- speakeryeah but no I think I think that what you're doing
- speakeris good helping people to remember
- speakernot to forget.
- speakerThank you so much.
