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Lisa Larges oral history, 2019.
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- speakerSo this is Elizabeth Wittrig interviewing Lisa Larges on April 30th, 2019.
- speakerLisa if you want to go ahead and start with went and where you were born.
- speakerAll right. I was born in 1963
- speakerand was born in La Crosse Wisconsin.
- speakerAnd.
- speakerYeah should I tell a little bit about my family?
- speakerSo both my older sister and I are both blind.
- speakerBorn blind through a funny genetic anomaly. Both
- speakermy mom and dad have grown up in the Twin Cities area and my dad was working
- speakerfor General Mills in Wisconsin when both my sister and I were born.
- speakerAnd when it came time for my sister who is a couple years
- speakerolder than me to start school my parents had heard
- speakerthat Minneapolis was like a great place to raise kids and Minnesota
- speakerwas a great place to send your
- speakerkids to school if they were impaired.
- speakerSo we all moved back here.
- speakerAnd so my sister and I grew up in public schools in Minneapolis.
- speakerAnd yes in the neighborhood
- speakerwhere I am now living again. So how cool to be back home.
- speakerAnd did you have any religious influences growing up?
- speakerMy mom.
- speakerMy mom is Presbyterian.
- speakerAll right my grandparents. Three
- speakerof my grandparents are Norwegian and one is English.
- speakerAnd so the English Presbyterian sort of
- speakerprevailed and so we grew up in a little
- speakerPresbyterian church.
- speakerI would describe it as a Christ
- speakercentral set and centric Bible based sort of
- speaker70s evangelical church.
- speakerYou grew up going to Bible study and things
- speakerlike that as well as Sunday school.
- speakerAs a teenager
- speakerI was a really religious kid. Very ardent and devout and
- speakeractually participated in several really meaningful Bible studies with
- speakerolder women in the church as well as our youth pastor and things like that
- speakerand those we're kind of like the core of who I was and the things that probably
- speakermattered the most to me at that time.
- speakerSo.
- speakerThen I headed off to college.
- speakerJust had that chance because I got some scholarship
- speakermoney to kind of move away from home and go to a little liberal
- speakerarts college. And I was part
- speakerof the charismatic movement on campus because it sort of spoke
- speakerto my believing soul.
- speakerAnd that's kind of where I began the process of coming out.
- speakerAnyway just please.
- speakerI mean I can keep going or not keep going and you just give me.
- speakerAbsolutely. Was this when you started the process of coming out
- speakerwas this college a safe space to come out or were there other out people
- speakeron campus?
- speakerOh it was it was mostly a really
- speakerpainful experience.
- speakerI when I was a I think I must have been a sophomore in
- speakercollege, maybe I was a freshman, anyway you know
- speakerI heard about an ex-gay ministry up here in the Twin Cities and
- speakerI think I tried to call them twice and for whatever
- speakerreasons they either never called
- speakerme back or we misconnected or whatever.
- speakerAnd so I mean that was my first attempt to sort of.
- speakerYou know somebody had come down to the college and talked about
- speakertheir ex-gay ministry and it was like oh that's who I am and that's what I need.
- speakerAnd then when I was a junior in college I had
- speakera history of depression in my life too.
- speakerSo I fell deeply
- speakerin love with somebody and that sort of also coincidended in that time in my
- speakerlife when I just crashed into another depression and so
- speakerI fell in love with somebody who wasn't in any way particularly
- speakerinterested in me. And so those
- speakertwo things colliding in my life.
- speakerOne sort of permanently altered my
- speakerfaith.
- speakerFirst direct my faith altogether. Mostly because just
- speakerthat sense of God not being there just being in such
- speakerkind of raw
- speakerpain and being young and not having
- speakerany. good tools for managing those things
- speakerand not finding
- speakerfaith as any kind of help.
- speakerSo. But also sort of started me on the path to kind of
- speakerrebuilding my faith in a whole different way.
- speakerAnd along in there I fell
- speakerin to a support group.
- speakerA lesbian support group. There were three of us.
- speakerIt was like a little Lutheran college so the gay life on campus was not
- speakerthat robust.
- speakerBut you know I mean these really
- speakerbeautiful deep deep friendships with that tiny little community
- speakerthere.
- speakerAnd you know went to a counselor.
- speakerI was on my way to seminary mostly
- speakerbecause that idea of going out and finding a job
- speakerseemed pretty intimidating and I still thought well I could graduate
- speakerschool is the best alternative to getting a job
- speakerand seminary seemed like the best program.
- speakerSo and so I was in therapy
- speakerand so in order to get into
- speakerseminary I needed or into the care process I needed to take the
- speakerMMPI. And the
- speakerMMPI at that time had a question.
- speakerThere were two questions.
- speakerOne was I
- speakeram attracted to people of my own gender and the other question was I am
- speakersexually frustrated or something.
- speakerAnd the counselor when she
- speakerturned in my results
- speakercircled those two responses.
- speakerAnd this went off to the counseling center that was evaluating me for the
- speakerpresbytery for the care process.
- speakerAnd so I went for my evaluation and I sat down with this guy
- speakerand he said so the evaluator has circled
- speakerthese two responses.
- speakerDo you have anything that you'd like to say about them?
- speakerI said well sexually frustrated.
- speakerThat's just a matter of being 21 and the other one
- speakeris just just true.
- speakerAnd he said well.
- speakerThe MMPI doesn't evaluate for sexual orientation and she
- speakershould not have highlighted those.
- speakerAnd so I mean honestly he sort of saved
- speakerme from being outed to that presbytery.
- speakerBut anyway. Answer to your question that that the journey in
- speakercollege of struggling
- speakerto come out and that was all tied up with what
- speakerit meant to be a believer and sorting
- speakerout what love was and
- speakerI mean certainly also just had
- speakera lot to do with creating
- speakerdeep connections with people who also felt marginalized
- speakerin that little Lutheran world.
- speakerAnd I also started sort of raising my consciousness
- speakerabout advocacy and what being
- speakeron the margins was about. And sort of making connections between being
- speakerqueer and being blind and all that.
- speakerSo anyway pivotal time as it is for so many people.
- speakerSo then you decided to attend seminary?
- speakerSo yeah. So then I went off to seminary
- speakerand went to San Francisco Theological Seminary.
- speakerPartly thinking oh San Francisco that will be a good
- speakerplace to be. But of course one it isn't in San Francisco and two
- speakerit's a seminary. This
- speakeris how I remember it and it may may or may not be true but
- speakerI landed there in 1985.
- speakerThe fall of '85. And I
- speakerheard later on that there had been a gay support group on
- speakercampus maybe a year or two before and that they
- speakerhappened to be all then.
- speakerI remember hearing it. And one of the members of that group outed one
- speakerof the others to their presbytery.
- speakerAnd so when I got there there was a
- speakersense of paranoia among other people that I learned were gay.
- speakerAnd so it felt like a very unsafe.
- speakerIt felt like a very unsafe place to be lesbian.
- speakerBut the other thing. A couple other things that happened kind of initially when I got
- speakerthere. One was 1985 in the middle of the AIDS epidemic in the
- speakerSan Francisco Bay area.
- speakerAnd in my first two
- speakeror three years I started to get involved
- speakerin kind of AID support groups and helping
- speakercare for mostly gay men who
- speakerwere dying of AIDS and so
- speakerthat I mean anything that probably had the most profound effect
- speakeron me in terms of my own recognizing
- speakerthat the course
- speakerI needed to take was to be out.
- speakerThe other really fun thing that happened to me.
- speakerWhen I was when I first went off to seminary
- speakerwas that I called Janie Spahr because Janie was living
- speakerand working in San Anselmo not far from where the seminary
- speakerwas in San Anselmo California.
- speaker
- speakerShe also didn't call me back.
- speakerThe theme in my life. But what's just so funny
- speakerabout that now is that I have never
- speakerever ever known Jamie not to call anyone back.
- speakerShe is so scrupulous about always making sure
- speakerthat phone calls are returned immediately.
- speakerSo something happened like either the message got lost or whatever.
- speakerBut.
- speakerIt took a while before I connected with Janie or
- speakersort of that.
- speakerHow had you heard of Jamie?
- speakerOh let's see that is a really good question.
- speakerI mean she was certainly a known entity.
- speakerOh I think what had happened
- speakeris I had a wonderful housemate my first year there and
- speakerI think that and so I was out to her.
- speakerAnd I think that she
- speakerhad heard about Janie somehow and she's like you you've gotta call this lady.
- speakerSo yeah.
- speakerI can't remember there was another story in there somewhere.
- speakerOh I guess the other piece that I would share is.
- speakerYou know my my sister and I mean we
- speakergrew up in a really tight little family with my mom and dad and we
- speakeradore them. And I mean I certainly went through all of that
- speakertypical things of tying
- speakerto break away from family and figuring out who I was and all of that.
- speakerBut I mean the hardest thing in the
- speakerworld to me was the idea of disappointing them.
- speakerBack at that time in my life and so I wasn't out to
- speakermy family until later on.
- speakerI was just about to finish seminary. And so
- speakerbeing out and figuring all of that
- speakerup for me at that time as a 20 something year old.
- speakerThat the the core thing for me was figuring out how
- speakerto be who I was without hurting my
- speakermom and dad.
- speakerWhich eventually happened but and you
- speakerknow part of the other part of that was just building
- speakermy own internal resources as 20 something year old.
- speakerAnd. And you know like
- speaker20 something year olds and you know they just.
- speakerThey have not just the capacity
- speakerto be out but just so many more resources to
- speakerknow who they are and live comfortably in their skin and things like that.
- speakerSo then you after seminary you became a candidate for ministry in
- speakerthe Twin Cities Presbytery?
- speakerYeah right. So I one
- speakersummer in seminary I went to massage school because
- speakerI realized I just I wasn't any closer in terms
- speakerof my own faith. I had no idea what I wanted to do in the church.
- speakerI had a wonderful internship at a little church in San Francisco Noe Valley ministry.
- speakerAnd that was good but I just didn't feel
- speakerconfident about working in the church.
- speakerSo I'm still figuring things out. So I went to massage school to be a massage therapist
- speakerand so when I finished seminary I got
- speakera couple of jobs working in spas and things like that.
- speakerAnd so eventually so I graduated in '89.
- speakerAnd somewhere
- speakerin that next year the candidates committee here in the Twin
- speakerCities because it came under care through my home church
- speakerand I was
- speakera candidate in this presbytery anyway.
- speakerThe chair of that committee well or my liaison contacted me and said hey
- speakeryou know it's time to move forward in the process to certify you're ready.
- speakerAnd so I mean I'd just been ignoring it which is sort of what
- speakeris my go to.
- speakerSo.
- speakerSo.
- speakerI just sort of decided then and there that it was and
- speakerI was out to my mom and dad by that time and that had been really hard.
- speakerBut and so that gave me the freedom to come out to the
- speakercommittee.
- speakerAnd so I wrote them this letter and I mean
- speakerthe way that I tell it which is maybe kind
- speakerof too neat but its also true.
- speakerBut I think by that time I
- speakerknew you know there was a handful of us who
- speakerwere lesbian or gay and
- speakerwe were all trying to figure all this out.
- speakerAnd so some people like me had sort of taken the path of
- speakerjust sort of going leaving
- speakerthe church behind.
- speakerOther people had decided to stay in the closet and
- speakerfollow up their calling.
- speakerAnd by that
- speakertime you know this was after the '78, you know ten or twelve
- speakeryears after the 1978 amendment was passed. And
- speakerso for whatever reason what made me mad
- speakerwas that it did both of those responses either leaving the church or
- speakerstaying in the closet totally left the church off the hook.
- speakerAnd and you know
- speakerI've been really influenced by the AIDS epidemic too just
- speakerin terms of that whole thing about silence equals
- speakerdeath. I mean it was true. People were people were dying and they didn't
- speakerlike you know people
- speakerwere dying in I
- speakerthink without saying who they loved or
- speakerwhat their life had been.
- speakerOh that and so
- speakerthat profoundly shaped LGBTQ
- speakercommunity. And so.
- speakerBut so it made me brave. Braver than I had been.
- speakerAnd anyway the thing about leaving the church off the hook is like they
- speakerhad this they had this policy that self-avowed, practicing,
- speakerunrepentant homosexuals were not fit for ordained
- speakerstatus in the church. And I
- speakerjust felt like the church should
- speakerhave and should do the honest work of enforcing
- speakerits policy. We shouldn't enforce its policy for
- speakerit. And it should least at least
- speakerdo us the courtesy of having
- speakercandidates before it who are lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender and saying
- speakerno we have to enforce this policy and you are not fit for service.
- speakerLike the church needed to
- speakersee the consequences of its actions.
- speakerAnd we have inadvertently shielded the church
- speakerfrom that but by and large and I mean of course
- speakerthere were plenty of I mean by this time there were lots and lots and lots of
- speakerbrave folks who who were challenging the church but
- speakerby and large sort of not in the ordination process for minister of
- speakerword and sacrament. So anyway so I wrote this letter and talked about why
- speakerit was important for me to be out why it was a part of how
- speakerI understood scripture. And was
- speakerlike theologically what it what it meant to me.
- speakerAnd anyway I sent out that letter and then a
- speakerfew days later my liaison
- speakerwho is this wonderful woman, Ann McKee at the time,
- speakercalled me up and said Hey we got your letter.
- speakerAnd I said. I mean again I really know nothing about how the church
- speakerworked or anything like that and I said well what have you done
- speakerwith other letters and she's like we haven't had a letter like this.
- speakerAnyway and this presbytery
- speakerhas often been pretty darn awesome and it
- speakerjust happened to be that it was a time that there were just
- speakera lot of amazing people in this presbytery in
- speakerthe early 90s. And so among them was this Ann McKee who
- speakerwas associate pastor at St. Luke's Presbyterian at the time and
- speakeran elder Ginny Rossier who was chairing
- speakerthe committee and preparation for ministry and
- speakeragain both
- speakerof those women and the rest of that committee there were 12 of them I think that
- speakerwas another major turning point in my life.
- speakerThe way that they. Ginny worked so hard
- speakerto guide that
- speakercommittee with integrity and to make sure that they
- speakerdid all of their work diligently and fairly.
- speakerAnd thoughtfully.
- speakerAnd so eventually it came back and I met with them and
- speakerand they
- speakersaid we're going to move you forward in the candidacy process.
- speakerWe're going to certify you ready.
- speakerWe're going to recommend. What what they
- speakerdecided to do they decided it was a significant decision that they were making and
- speakerthat they would give the presbytery the
- speakerchance to vote on their recommendation but they would recommend me to be certified ready
- speakerand seeking a call.
- speakerJust thinking back that I think that's how all that
- speakertranspired.
- speakerWere you surprised by that?
- speakerOh my gosh.
- speakerI mean honestly it was the last thing I wanted.
- speakerI mean honestly it was my
- speakerway of getting out of the ordination process.
- speakerI just wanted to do it honestly
- speakerand so yeah they landed me in a heap more trouble than I ever intended.
- speakerAnd again like I was just like by that point on.
- speakerSo it was just in my late 20s but still really young
- speakerand still I didn't know a lot about how the church worked.
- speakerAnd then I went off to and in the fall of 91.
- speakerIn November of 91 I think it was the big snowstorm here.
- speakerThere was a huge blizzard on
- speakerHalloween of 91. I think that's when I came back here
- speakerand I didn't tell my family what I was doing so I came back and I stayed with friends and
- speakermet with the presbytery cause I was just
- speakerso anxious and afraid of conflict.
- speakerAnd I
- speakerdon't remember much of that night.
- speakerI do remember oh a couple of things one.
- speakerAnother just beautiful soul named Lindsey Biddle
- speakerwho ended up being very involved in the LGBTQ
- speakermovement as a straight ally.
- speakerAnyways she was also certified ready to seek
- speakera call or she was approved for ordination that night but so
- speakershe was up right before me anyway. So we sort of think of each other as crib mates.
- speakerAnd I remember reading my statement of faith.
- speakerI don't remember any questions. I remember that pastor of that church I'd grown up with
- speakeryou know speaking against voting in my favor.
- speakerAnd.
- speakerAnd then I remember when, I don't remember the numbers anymore, it
- speakerwas something like 120 to 80.
- speakerIt was I mean it was
- speakera solid majority but it was also a significant minority vote too.
- speakerSo.
- speakerYeah. So that was November of '91.
- speakerSo that matriculated through the court process until it
- speakerlanded in front of the PJC a year later in November of 1992.
- speakerAnd that was around the same time that Janie Spahr was going through a very similar
- speakerprocess. Were you able to connect with her at that point?
- speakerSo by that time I knew Janie a little bit and every now and then I would land
- speakerin her office and say look this
- speakeris what's going on with me or whatever.
- speakerJust I mean a lot of the
- speakergreatest privileges of my life is
- speakerknowing Janie and certainly
- speakerin terms of people who have influenced who I am and
- speakerwhat I believe and I want
- speakermy life to be like all came from Janie.
- speakerAnd so we I remember we went out for breakfast one day and she told
- speakerme about applying at this church in Rochester, New York and in
- speakerthe end I don't remember specifically hearing when they
- speakervoted to call her to be the pastor but then
- speakerthat got challenged too and so her case
- speakerand my case went before the PJC at the same time, Halloween of 1992.
- speakerI don't know if that was the first time I met Ginny Davidson.
- speakerMaybe it was the second or third time.
- speakerI'd gone to a More Light conference by then maybe one or two.
- speakerAnd I met Ginny there I think.
- speakerBut I just remember at this Permanent
- speakerJudicial Commission, General Assembly PJC trial, all of this
- speakerwas just a foreign concept to me anyway but sitting
- speakerin the front row with Ginny and Janie and you
- speakerknow feeling this I mean I talked about and I would talk later about like you know kind
- speakerof feeling the generations between us and what that meant to me.
- speakerAnd Janie was like so sure.
- speakerJanie just had this feeling in her bones that the PJC would uphold
- speakerboth of our cases and they did the opposite.
- speakerAnd so that started us both on a journey
- speakerand in my case they
- speakersaid that as a self avowed lesbian,
- speakerunrepentant lesbian that I
- speakerwasn't fit to seek a call until as
- speakerI would put it, either the church repented or I did.
- speakerSo I was back to being a candidate but I couldn't
- speakerpursue a call.
- speakerAnd there was a long tussle for many years that would play itself
- speakerout in lots and lots of different ways about being practicing
- speakeror not. And it was just repugnant
- speakerin many ways. I mean first of all for all of us who
- speakerwanted to be practicing but weren't.
- speakerYou know I mean.
- speakerFirst of all you know it defined being
- speakerqueer by your sexuality.
- speakerIn you
- speakerknow it sort of made an obsession
- speakerout of sex etc.
- speakerSo that in that whole 1978 self-avowed, practicing,
- speakerunrepentant language like practicing was sort of
- speakeran ongoing sticking point.
- speakerWhich I felt self-avowed and unrepentant had
- speakerto be worth something too. So
- speakerhonestly that verdict kind of launched
- speakerme into the LGBTQ movement in the Presbyterian
- speakerChurch.
- speakerI'd been kind of you know like I said I'd gone to a More Light
- speakerconference and done this or that but when that
- speakerdecision came out that's
- speakersort of began my
- speakerconnection with this bigger movement.
- speakerAnd that's around the time That All My Freely Served formed because of that.
- speakerYep yep. And I went on the
- speakerboard of PLGC.
- speakerAnd one
- speakerof the things I just want to mention is just that whole history of PLGC.
- speakerAnd you know that I was just thinking the other day about
- speakeryou
- speakerknow even before PLGC was founded I think it was
- speakerin the mid 60s that Merrill Proudfoot
- speakerpublished an article. I think it was in Presbyterians Today.
- speakerAnd
- speakerhe wrote under the pseudonym of Calvin Gay and
- speakerhe was a psychology and he, I
- speakermean it's an article that I've never read I've only heard about, but he wrote about
- speakerhow the church needed to embrace
- speakerLGBT folks. And so anyway.
- speakerBut in the and the other really significant thing that happened throughout the 80s was
- speakerthat there were several cases involving gay
- speakerelders. One a deacon in Oregon and then
- speakerelders in Buffalo, New York I think and up in
- speakerNew England and as as the
- speakerfight went on through the 90s in the 2000s whatever
- speakerwe sort of forgot about elders and deacons and that their
- speakertheir ordination was equal to that of ministers of the word sacrament
- speakeretc. But it was churches and
- speakerthose deacons and elders who really we're
- speakerout on the front lines and I
- speakerthink for me like a lot of the focus on ministers
- speakerkind of reflects
- speakera kind of irritating hierarchy that we've
- speakerperpetuated and what I
- speakerloved, one of the many things I loved about PLGC, was
- speakerthat whole history that was connected.
- speakerThe More Light Movement was sort of launched right after that '78 decision.
- speakerAnd so those More Light Churches.
- speakerAnd then their whole network and PLGC acting alongside
- speakerof them they were they were doing a lot of great work
- speakerin that in the 70s and 80s and early 90s
- speakerjust as I was sort of figuring out my own life out and coming along so
- speakerand and certainly the AIDS epidemic had touched the Presbyterian
- speakerChurch too. By that time it had like
- speakerhad really sculpted other folks journeys too in terms of calling
- speakerthe church to be accountable. So.
- speakerAnd you've talked about how you know when you first wrote that letter
- speakerto your ordination committee coming out, you were almost hoping for a way out
- speakerof this. When did that kind of shift for you?
- speakerOr did it shift to where you know you felt committed to pursuing pursuing
- speakerthis?
- speakerWell there was the good part of me and the
- speakerrebellious part of me were both activated.
- speakerSo the positive motivation was like oh my gosh I mean Ginny
- speakerRossier and Ann and
- speakerthen the the folks who defended
- speakerthe Presbytery and their decision, Sandy Holly and
- speakerErnie Cutting, and I mean they like so went to
- speakerbat for me. And so like it was crazy to, I had
- speakerto be in. So like that was part of it.
- speakerHonestly I mean I've said often that they sort of handed my call back to
- speakerme and that is that is very true.
- speakerBut but the
- speakerother part was just like this decision
- speakerfrom the PJC like
- speakerI just wasn't going to let that stand and you know.
- speakerAnd I mean at that time
- speakerlike I was becoming aware of the crazy
- speakerhostility in the church and so I just
- speakerremember saying like I was not going to leave as long as there was
- speakersomebody out there who wanted me to go you know.
- speakerAnd that was true too.
- speakerLike it's like the
- speakerwhole AIDS epidemic and like somebody
- speakerhad to carry on you know. And somebody like.
- speakerSo there was a beautiful beautiful beautiful young
- speakerman who died because of flat
- speakerout hostility. I mean
- speakerworse than homophobia.
- speakerI mean we, as Americans, we carried
- speakerthat epidemic and we were responsible for
- speakerletting those men die without helping them
- speakerin a way that they needed. Without recognizing their humanity.
- speakerComing to their side of that so.
- speakerSo we you know even experiencing
- speakera tiny little bit of what that was like made
- speakermy otherwise really timid soul a little
- speakerfiercer.
- speakerSo then you went on to become under the care of the Presbytery of
- speakerSan Francisco at some point?
- speakerI mean yeah so the truth was that I graduated
- speakerfrom San Francisco seminary and I became a massage therapist and joined the
- speakerI was asked to join the board of PLJC and started attending
- speakergeneral assemblies and was involved in various churches.
- speakerAnd so then my candidacy was in limbo because there
- speakerwas nothing that I could do to move
- speakerforward in the process. And the Presbytery wasn't
- speakergoing to drop me and I wasn't going to cut myself
- speakerout. But I no longer lived here anyway so there was this
- speakerlimbo trying to figure out what to do about it and at
- speakera certain point it just seemed silly to continue my candidacy in this Presbytery
- speakerwhen I wasn't living here.
- speakerAnd so after that and so there were three
- speakeryears of dialogue between 1993 and 1996 and I
- speakersort of decided that following those three
- speakeryears of dialogue whatever the church decided that that would be the
- speakerright time to ask to have my candidacy transferred to San
- speakerFrancisco Presbytery.
- speakerSo I did that in 1997.
- speakerLet's pause for just a sec.
- speakerSo while you were in the Presbytery of San
- speakerFrancisco and your orientation was on hold, you were actively involved with More
- speakerLight Presbyterians.
- speakerCan you talk about some of the strategies that that
- speakerorganization had and that All May Freely Serve had as well to change ordination standards?
- speakerYeah.
- speakerI mean I'll tell you kind of what I remember about all of those General Assemblies
- speakerbetween 93 and 97 or so.
- speakerI
- speakerremember that 93 assembly when
- speakerthey voted to have a three
- speakeryears study.
- speakerAnd I
- speakerthink it was that year or
- speakerthe following year, somebody will know this, when we asked
- speakerthe moderator for permission to
- speakerintroduce ourselves just
- speakerto say who we were. There was a long line of us and they gave us I don't
- speakerknow ten minutes or something. And so everybody went to the mic and told
- speakerwho they were and identified themselves as LGBTQ.
- speakerMostly L and G at the
- speakertime. And then when the Presbytery, when
- speakerthe General Assembly voted for those three years of dialogue I just remember our
- speakershock and sadness and
- speakeroutrage and then we held a protest that night too.
- speakerBut so that
- speakerlaunched this, I mean we we
- speakerdecided to take hold of that dialogue.
- speakerAnd so by
- speakerthat time Janie and That All May Freely Serve were going
- speakeracross the country creating regions and
- speakergetting churches to engage in dialogue which was really hard to do.
- speakerAnd PLGC and More Light were doing the same thing.
- speakerI can't remember the year that MLP, More Light Churches Network and PLGC merged but at
- speakerthat
- speakertime they were still two different organizations.
- speakerBut like committed to dialogue.
- speakerAnd
- speakerit was really difficult because Presbyterians
- speakerwere reluctant to create dialogues.
- speakerThere was no mandate. There was a mandate to do it but there was no penalty for not doing
- speakerit.
- speakerFolks who supported the stance of the church as it was
- speakerwho supported the 78 decision
- speakerit wasn't in their interest to to be in dialogue
- speakerand our folks when
- speakerwhen we showed up we put ourselves at risk.
- speakerYou know as deacons and elders in our church.
- speakerI mean as people who could lose their jobs you know if people knew
- speakerthat they were gay or lesbian
- speakerand
- speakerfolks who were pursuing ministry or in ministry.
- speakerPlus how hard it was for a ton of reasons
- speakerto create dialogue and I was still living in the Bay Area and what we
- speakerdid I don't remember how exactly
- speakerthis got started, but along
- speakerwith several other folks I started this thing called the travelling
- speakerreconciliation show.
- speakerAnd we did it like a
- speakertheater.
- speakerWe had several of us who kind of wrote our
- speakerstories about being LGBTQ and Christian.
- speakerAnd I think we
- speakerfirst presented at this church St. John's Presbyterian Church which is a More Light
- speakerChurch, but we tried to get other folks to come too.
- speakerAnd a woman from Montclair
- speakerPresbyterian Church who had a theater background was
- speakerthere and she's like we we could make this something
- speakerthat actually is compelling. And so there was maybe
- speaker10 or 12 of us who she she worked with.
- speakerWe developed our stories and we kind
- speakerof scripted them into a more polished piece.
- speakerWe were kind of woven together.
- speakerI remember that like two of the people, all
- speakerof their stories were really beautiful, but
- speakerthere were two women two straight women who were both
- speakermembers of the choir at Montclair Presbyterian Church and Pat
- speakerwas one of them and she had a daughter Karen who committed suicide, jumped
- speakeroff the Golden Gate Bridge and Hope had been married
- speakerto a man who came out as gay.
- speakerAnd I mean they had been in church together and they didn't know one another's
- speakerstories until they both volunteered to be
- speakera part of this traveling reconciliation show.
- speakerJust they're wonderful folks too who are all apart.
- speakerSo we took took this all around the Bay Area, both to Presbyterian
- speakerchurches and other churches and then we tried to get
- speakerfolks to have conversation about it afterwards.
- speakerAnd it was again kind of following Jeannie's
- speakergenius that people telling their stories makes
- speakerthe difference.
- speakerAnd so that that was.
- speakerAnd then we eventually took that to that 96 assembly in
- speakerBaltimore. I mean I'm sorry in Albuquerque and
- speakerrented a hotel space to put it on.
- speakerYeah and like being at that somebody was
- speakerjust pivotal for all of us I think.
- speakerHow did people respond to that?
- speakerYou know again the
- speakerusual suspects showed up. So you know a lot of times
- speakerwe had this problem of representing our, of reaching
- speakerthe folks who already supported us.
- speakerBut I mean I think for us to tell
- speakerour stories there and for people to see that even folks who are supportive, it had
- speakermeaning.
- speakerBut that whole assembly was packed with kind
- speakerof big meaning moments right.
- speakerYeah.
- speakerCan you describe some of some of that? What it was like to be at that assembly?
- speakerIt
- speakerwas a sad assembly.
- speakerWhere I remember the testimony
- speakerof the folks on the other, who supported the
- speakerG-6.0106b.
- speakerAmong them were several folks who had gone through ex-gay ministries.
- speakerI think for me that's the first time I remember hearing
- speakerthem testify.
- speakerAnd I think some of the other testimony at that assembly was particular was was
- speakertheir testimony wasn't necessarily virulent but there were other testimonies that
- speakerwere pretty.
- speakerstrident and that was that was hard to hear.
- speakerI remember you know I do, I don't remember it particularly
- speakerat that assembly, but there were all kinds
- speakerof internecine struggles amongst all of us on what
- speakerwas the right tactic, what were the right strategies, how
- speakerangry should we be, how down home friendly
- speakernice should we be, how open to compromise should we be, what
- speakershould those compromises be, should we hold
- speakerout for, you know
- speakeris it all or nothing? All of that.
- speakerA couple of stories about that assembly.
- speakerJohn Buchanan was the moderator.
- speakerHe
- speakerwas elected moderator. So this is a story from the next
- speakerassembly which would have been the Syracuse assembly which is
- speakerwhen he John Buchanan was the moderator. As the outgoing moderator you
- speakerselected the people who would be the preachers.
- speakerYeah. So this must have happened in Syracuse in 97.
- speakerYou know for the morning worship each day.
- speakerAnd one of the people that he selected was Frederick
- speakerBuechner. And for my soul those
- speakerworship services could often be really
- speakerdifficult because it would be going
- speakeralong just fine and then it would go off the rails.
- speakerSomebody would say something that would just just hurt.
- speakerIt was painful but so but I was
- speakerconvinced by somebody to go hear this Frederick Buechner and
- speakerI sort of thought, like when I was in seminary he was all the deal.
- speakerAnd so I sort of was skeptical because he was just so
- speakerso cherished by so many.
- speakerAnd he he gave the sermon.
- speakerIt was like the only time where I felt with that expression like oh
- speakermy jaw dropped. It was a shock for me.
- speakerIt was this jaw dropping sermon. He began by he used the passage
- speakerfrom first John about this one who
- speakerwe have seen who we have touched with our hands, this Christ.
- speakerAnd he talked about what what that would mean
- speakerto touch Jesus and how like the language of that passage just
- speakerkind of spills over itself.
- speakerAnd like I was that's kind of how he opened and I remember thinking like you know nice
- speakerlike whatever he had a nice mannerism.
- speakerAnd then he talked about
- speakerbeing invited to the lesbian holy union ceremony
- speakerof the daughter of a friend of his.
- speakerAnd so that was one of the first times
- speakeranybody had said the word gay or lesbian.
- speakerPeople had said homosexual or whatever but like
- speakerhe put it right out there and then he talked about being
- speakeranxious about going and what would he expect and what was it going to be
- speakerlike. And then he talked about going to this holy union
- speakerservice and finding Jesus there.
- speakerHe talked about like meeting Christ
- speakerin the way that those that author in
- speakerfirst John had met Christ. And then he said
- speakerand that's why I don't go to church much.
- speakerIt's just it's just amazing.
- speakerTalking about finding finding God in the queer
- speakercommunity and being driven out of church.
- speakerBecause he didn't find the Christ in church in the
- speakersame way he had.
- speakerAnd it was
- speakerso bold and astonishing.
- speakerI mean really that's one of the few sermons I remember.
- speakerAnd so that was that was that following year.
- speakerBut yeah the 96 assembly when G-6.0106b was
- speakerpassed.
- speakerAgain just devastating.
- speakerAnd the thing about the General Assembly's is that everybody stays up too late and
- speakernobody gets enough sleep and nobody eat well and
- speakernobody gets any exercise so it just takes everything out
- speakerof you. And I mean for me
- speakerand I think for others there was something just something
- speakerreally profound that's just hard to describe about being
- speakerat these General Assemblies and having the church so violently
- speakerand so clearly tell
- speakeryou no. Tell you that that
- speakeryour being is sinful for for who you are.
- speakerAnd
- speakerall of us were living happily in in in in a truth that was
- speakercounter to that but it still
- speakerdidn't, for me anyway, take
- speakeraway from that soul damage that the church inflicted.
- speakerThe church did.
- speakerI mean the other thing that was just always hard, it
- speakerwas really tough for a lot of our heterosexual allies for sure.
- speakerAnd it's in many of them were just so incredibly magnificent.
- speakerI mean just really amazing, but others
- speakerwould just say like oh it won't last.
- speakerIt's not. You know things are going to change and just like hang
- speakerin there. And I think it was just almost
- speakerimpossible to communicate to them just no it wasn't
- speakera small thing and it wasn't going to changes easily.
- speakerAnd that power of again
- speakerhomophobia is like too mild a word.
- speakerThe power of that sort of religiously stoked kind of
- speakerdeep seeded prejudice against queer folks was
- speakerreally it took
- speakera toll. It took a huge toll.
- speakerOh I was
- speakergoing to say that the other thing that happened in those years is Janie got
- speakera group together. The other really amazing thing that
- speakerI learned from Janie Spahr and learned back then too is
- speakerthat like just
- speakerto be always be about drawing more people in.
- speakerI mean she just is that is the masters, she's
- speakerthe mistress of never making it about herself.
- speakerYou know if Janie is going to show up somewhere
- speakershe's going to show up with 10 people with her.
- speakerSo somebody had asked her to write a book and so instead she said
- speakerno I want to write an anthology.
- speakerI want it to be everybody stories.
- speakerSo by '96 Called
- speakerOut came out. And so there was another.
- speakerGathering at that assembly where we all signed copies of all of us who were in that
- speakeranthology signed copies of that and again it was like Janie's genius that brought it
- speakertogether. And a couple of years later it was followed by Called Out With which was
- speakerstories of heterosexual allies and again sort of that
- speakerin large measure goes back to Janie's genius about showing
- speakerhow we all are in this together.
- speakerSo that's the other thing that I remember about those years that
- speaker'93-'96 years.
- speakerWell you talk about incredibly painful some of this was. How did you cope with that?
- speakerBy
- speakerthe time by I mean that I
- speakerbegan a long drinking career that I finally ended in 2007.
- speakerBut many of us gay
- speakerand straight on all sides of the
- speakeraisle in all the church conflicts turned to alcohol for our
- speakercoping strategy.
- speakerSo that was that was definitely one way
- speakerI mean again those
- speakerexperiences were so fraught because on
- speakerthe one hand it was so painful and
- speakeron the other hand the movement that
- speakerwas building had in it so many just incredibly
- speakerbeautiful people. And so again you
- speakerknow I developed really deep
- speakerdeep deep friendships with so many people.
- speakerAnd you
- speakerknow the kind of friendships that are just so
- speakerenriching and so satisfying and so
- speakerdeep down that I've been in by
- speakerway of like healthy coping strategies I think we just
- speakerturned to one another and like
- speakerthey said there was there was like in any movement I mean we sure
- speakerhad our share of infighting and personality clashes
- speakerand being stupid
- speakerand nasty to each other but we
- speakeralso had some really really strong
- speakerexperiences of community with each other too.
- speakerI think I'm going to jump ahead in time here.
- speakerI read somewhere that in 2007 you wrote a statement
- speakerof departure.
- speakerOh yeah.
- speakerSo yeah I mean like 2006 we
- speakerwere at another crazy polity
- speakermilestone where with
- speakerthe help of the Theological Task Force that
- speakerthey had put forward this idea that I mean using
- speakerprinciples
- speakerthat were already in the Book of Order that candidates who had
- speakera disagreement with the church's constitution
- speakercould declare a scruple.
- speakerAnd then
- speakerthe presbytery, the presbytery responsible for oversight
- speakerof that candidate or the governing body would
- speakerdetermine whether that scruple was of such significance that it
- speakercould not support that candidate continuing in ministry
- speakeror if not then then the
- speakerpresbytery would allow that candidate
- speakerto pursue ordination noting that scruple.
- speakerAnd so there was
- speakerfierce debate about that path.
- speakerWhether that was the best way.
- speakerWell whether sort of requiring
- speakerqueer folks to scruple their existence was
- speakeran
- speakerappropriate way to work for a change.
- speakerAnd at that time there were I mean there was very much a lot of division
- speakerwithin both That All May Freely Serve and More Light Presbyterians about
- speakerwhether to support this or not.
- speakerBut I was among those which I sort of admired what the task force had
- speakerdone. And I mean the work they had done together and it seemed
- speakerto me something at least
- speakerworth exploring. So I wrote a statement of departure
- speakerand I mean like here's the fabulous thing about reading writing a statement of
- speakerdeparture is that it sort of gave me a platform
- speakerto say these are the reasons why I believe this section of our
- speakerConstitution G-6.0106b
- speakeris antithetical to theology
- speakerand scripture.
- speakerBut also antithetical to
- speakerthe rest of our Constitution. So
- speakerI wrote that. A statement of departure.
- speakerI mean the other thing I'll say about that is they're
- speakerlike brilliant people in our denomination and certainly
- speakerwithin our movement.
- speakerOne of the people that comes to mind is Don
- speakerStroud who was the regional coordinator for That All May Freely Serve in the
- speakerBaltimore area. And then we just like theologically so able and gifted and
- speakerclear in setting forth complex ideas in a way that was elegant.
- speakerAnyway.
- speakerI mean I felt like in terms of writing the statement of departure like
- speakerI was no match for any of those
- speakerfolks. But again I had been around for so long that
- speakersort of like articulating why I
- speakerthought G-6.0106b was a bad idea was something I could do.
- speakerThough it was funny to sort of have it picked apart in these judicial proceedings
- speakerthat would follow without having an opportunity to defend it or
- speakernot even knowing if yeah. Anyway so.
- speakerSo this was in the San Francisco Presbytery and so by
- speakerthat time when I became, came
- speakeron staff of That All May Freely Serve in 2002.
- speakerOne of the brilliant things the That All May Freely Serve board had done
- speakerwas that they created positions that.
- speakerJanie was the minister director at that time and
- speakerwhen they asked me to be on staff they created it as
- speakera called position. So that was with
- speakerthe intent that I would be ordained to it.
- speakerAnd.
- speakerAnd they would continue it.
- speakerContinue to think of it in that way even if I wasn't ordained to it.
- speakerAnd so in
- speaker2002 I began the process with the San Francisco Presbytery of getting
- speakertheir approval to be ordained to my position. And the
- speakercommittee of preparation for ministry the first time that
- speakerI went before them just voted
- speakerthat down so it never even got to the Presbytery.
- speakerBut by the time this scrupling process came
- speakerup it was sort of time to ask them again.
- speakerAnd my
- speakerrelationship with the Presbytery, the San Francisco Presbytery, and that between
- speaker2002 and 2012 there was such a series of court cases I can't even really
- speakerkeep track of them anymore. And because
- speakerit was the presbytery's actions that were at issue when
- speakerthe when the San Francisco Presbytery eventually accepted my scruple, it
- speakerwas the presbytery that
- speakerwas being brought up on charges essentially being
- speakeradjudicated as to whether its decisions in
- speakervoting to approve me were
- speakersound or not. And what was really tough about that
- speakerwas that then there were
- speakerall these trials in which I
- speakerwas essentially the real party in interest but I had no I
- speakerhad no I had no voice. The proceedings weren't against me
- speakerso I was not defending myself.
- speakerThe presbytery is defending its actions and so it
- speakerwas a really tough tough tough tough place to be.
- speakerAgain one
- speakerof Janie's really amazing strength
- speakeris bringing community together and because she was directly
- speakercharged with her case with marrying people she
- speakerwas she was the one on trial and so she could create
- speakera defense that sat
- speakerwell with her and she could create how she wanted
- speakerthose trials to go in a way that she actually
- speakerjust had more freedom to do that whereas for those of us involved
- speakerin cases where it was the presbytery's actions that were at issue we
- speakerdidn't have that freedom.
- speakerAnd so just to finish that thought Janie's genius
- speakerwas that she just like always made it about community.
- speakerSo you know whenever there was a trial of which there were all so
- speakermany in which Janie was the
- speakerdefendant you bet your life that you know there would
- speakerbe wagon loads of people
- speakerwho would be called to testify so that they could tell their story.
- speakerAnd so that
- speakerthe jurors and the panel ajudicating those cases
- speakeragain would be brought face to face with people and their stories.
- speakerAnd for all of us who had cases
- speakerthat were against the presbytery like
- speakerthose things didn't develop in the same way.
- speakerAnd I remember talking with somebody
- speakerelse who was involved in a judicial case and just talking about
- speakerhow hard that press is for
- speakerwhatever reason it was for me and she said Oh yeah it's
- speakerit's demoralizing. And I was like that was the best word for it.
- speakerThose those cases where I would sit and listen
- speakerto kind of my life being debated you
- speakerknow with the presbytery speaking on one side and those who were challenging
- speakerthe presbytery's actions speaking on the other and going back
- speakerand forth about my statement of departure and my manner of life and all
- speakerof that. That was hard and kind of one way
- speakerto sort of wrap up this particular part of the
- speakerstory is that I mean
- speakerthose those cases went up and down the judicial ladder several
- speakertimes. Up to the Synod, the PJC would hand it back to the Synod then the
- speakerSynod would say on the Presbytery has to do something else.
- speakerThen it would be challenged again. It would go back to the Synod, would go back to the
- speakerPJC and then the PJC would
- speakermake a ruling so that like that went on from
- speakerthere until seems
- speakerto me it was me up to 2012.
- speakerBut at one point the
- speakerPermanent Judicial Commission they
- speakerwere they had before it two cases of scrupling.
- speakerOne was my case and the other was Scott Anderson's in Knox
- speakerPresbyterian. John Knox Presbyterian and this
- speakermy characterization of the PJC decision and maybe
- speakerunfair to them but they wouldn't
- speakerthink they sort of wanted to split the difference to say that Scott's
- speakercase could go through.
- speakerAnd he could be ordained as the director
- speakerof the Wisconsin Council of Churches.
- speakerBut that mine had to be returned to the presbytery for
- speakersome other action.
- speakerAnd I honestly don't even remember the technical details of
- speakerhow they based that decision.
- speakerIt felt to me. It felt cruel. That's
- speakerfor certain.
- speakerBut it felt to me like it was a kind of a created
- speakercompromise that didn't have much backing behind
- speakerit.
- speakerBut the point to all of that is by that
- speakerpoint sort of like my my my
- speakerspirit had run dry.
- speakerI was I was done
- speakerwith the judicial
- speakerprocess.
- speakerFor me I wanted
- speakerto be the person who was able to kind
- speakerof meet all of that with equanimity but I'm just
- speakernot that person.
- speakerIt was incredibly hard.
- speakerI remember one
- speakerof one of my other just extraordinary mentors is a beautiful
- speakerman named Kal Chin who had been my Hebrew professor in seminary
- speakerand later was a pastor and was on our board chaired our board of That All May
- speakerFreely Serve. He lived in San Francisco, lives in San Francisco, and I
- speakerremember sitting at his dining room table and Janie was there
- speakertoo and I just said to them.
- speakerI'm done. I can't do this anymore.
- speakerAnd we were we were close to the end then.
- speakerWe were like we were at that point where that the PJC
- speakerhad handed down this sort of technical verdict and like it just had
- speakerto play itself out which would take another
- speakeryear and finish.
- speakerAnd I still sort of think, I mean
- speakertheir wisdom was like hang in there we're going to get through it, but
- speakerI still sort of think back on that night and think what would it
- speakerhave been if I had walked away. Because I think the things
- speakerthat in all of this sort of craziness
- speakerthe one thing that I haven't yet sort of that
- speakerI'm sort of still waiting for time to heal is that that judicial process
- speakerand how it like it really ate me up.
- speakerThere were some there were some wonderful things about it too.
- speakerI mean all in all I'm glad that we we went through it.
- speakerIt was part of the strategy and it was good to do but it took
- speakerits toll too.
- speakerFor whatever reason that's the kind of psychological
- speakerwound that I'm still sort of working
- speakeron healing. And I mean I want you know
- speakerwhat I want that story to be
- speakerknown to it's
- speakerabout you know who. It's about being a
- speakerfragile human being in a process that could
- speakerbe just flat out cruel
- speakerand impersonal even when
- speakerthose you know served on those
- speakerjudicial commissions and where the litigants for
- speakereither side I mean they they are they all were doing their
- speakerbest and they and they meant well.
- speakerAnd I know you know perfectly well that I am
- speakerone of the lucky ones.
- speakerAnd I'm
- speakerhappy. I have a wonderful wonderful life.
- speakerI'm like
- speakerso lucky in this whole movement to get to learn
- speakerfrom some of the spiritual giants of
- speakerthe church.
- speakerAnd still it hurt it hurt a lot.
- speakerI don't want to deny that. And I think
- speakerlike at some point we're going to be in another struggle over something and we're
- speakergoing to inflict the same kind of pain unless we figure out
- speakerhow to do it differently.
- speakerThank you for sharing that.
- speakerDo you want to take a break or? Okay great.
- speakerGreat.
- speakerWell. I was going to ask if ou do you want to talk about it, if it's not known too much
- speakerof an abrupt change here, how you finally did become ordained?
- speakerEnd of 2011.
- speakerSo our again
- speakerwe're just telling the whole story.
- speakerSo 2010 we voted, 2011 we
- speakerfinally voted to change
- speakerour constitution.
- speakerAnd what
- speakerI remember most about that night was I was flying into Rochester,
- speakerNew York for something with That All May Freely Serve and all
- speakerI could think about was the people who had worked for that day who
- speakerweren't there.
- speakerOther people. I mean there's there's all the people who just
- speakerreally got chewed up by the church and left.
- speakerAnd there's the people that found better places for themselves and other denominations
- speakeretc. But then there are the people who who died and who had worked
- speakerand devoted so much of themselves to trying to change
- speakerthe church and in the end they died knowing
- speakera church that rejected who they were.
- speakerAnd so there was a group of us who kind of started a public
- speakeremail chain like starting to list all of those names.
- speakerAnd that I
- speakerthink that those that listed that sort of Cloud of Witnesses stuck
- speakerwith me, stays with me.
- speakerAnyway it's like my case was
- speakerstill like winding its way through the it is like lke
- speakera movie that ends three quarters before it's
- speakerdone.
- speakerLike like we already reached the finale but like then
- speakerwe had to spend another two years or something like that working
- speakerworking out all of the details because of this PJC decision.
- speakerAnd I know I've being rough on you for minute Permanent Judicial
- speakerCommission folks and I apologize for that, but
- speakerit was tough. Anyway so That All May Freely Serve and I
- speakercontinued and I continued as the minister
- speakercoordinator for That All May Freely Serve until that
- speakercase was finally resolved.
- speakerBut by that time like I mean the whole point was
- speakerto ordain me to my position with That All May Freely Serve. That's
- speakerhow they had created it.
- speakerBut by the time that all of the judicial
- speakercommissions technicalities were resolved and the Presbytery finally
- speakervoted etc etc. like my role with
- speakerThat All May Freely Serve had ended and it just did not make any sense to me to be
- speakerordained to a position that I was about to leave.
- speakerAnd so many
- speakerpeople were just totally confused by that.
- speakerI mean all this time, but like it is like you're called
- speakerto serve a position and my position was ending.
- speakerLike a recall for a function and the function
- speakerthat I was serving in the church was changing.
- speakerSo.
- speakerSo I did not get ordained when the presbytery finally approved
- speakerme to be ordained.
- speakerAnd that was very amusing
- speakeror confusing depending on your point of view.
- speakerSo I ended up moving back to Minneapolis and I started
- speakerattending a great little church.
- speakerLake Nokomis Presbyterian. And I mean one of the many things that I love about
- speakerthis church is that they really happened to have a really lovely
- speakerpastor who I just learned so much from.
- speakerHer name is Kara Root.
- speakerAnd so I began looking for work.
- speakerI looked some for church jobs but I also just needed a job.
- speakerSo I got a job as the outreach
- speakerperson for the State Services for
- speakerthe Blind in Minnesota which is a state agency that serves
- speakerMinnesotans who are blind, visually impaired and deaf blind and like the things
- speakerthat I love about that job it gives me a chance to sort of pay it
- speakerforward a little bit in another place in my life.
- speakerAnd I also like it's just really great to have it.
- speakerI mean. I mean. I was like when I worked with That All May Freely Serve I kind of had
- speakermy dream job but I wanted to have my dream
- speakerlife. And so this is the kind of job that kind of
- speakerlet me kind of shape the rest of my life in a way that was really nice
- speakerand I love my job. I still do that.
- speakerMeanwhile looked around for various church positions
- speakerand meanwhile Kara
- speakerthe pastor at my church and some of the some of the members
- speakerthere started this kind of low
- speakerintensity lobbying campaign saying like Lisa you like you in
- speakermany ways like act as a pastor at our church.
- speakerYou preach, you help, watching out
- speakerfor folks, caring for folks, leading classes or whatever.
- speakerAll of which I love doing.
- speakerThey're like why don't why don't we just make you a pastor and
- speakerI just resisted that as
- speakerbest I could for as long as I could.
- speakerAnd I said to Kara like I don't want to have two jobs.
- speakerI mean they could only pay me if they could pay me at all they could pay
- speakerme for it part time and I'm like I don't want to work that hard and
- speakerlike Kara said like what if we write you a job
- speakerdescription. So
- speakerKara, one of my favorite things is Kyra wrote this job description that's
- speakerlike Lisa will you know you know do a little preaching and be responsible for
- speakercongregational care and do whatever she wants.
- speakerAnd like all of them were just so sweet.
- speakerAnd then like for me like the other big thing was like there were just so
- speakermany people who had worked so hard for my ordination
- speakerand then I guess I just kept putting it off.
- speakerAnd my mom and dad were like
- speakerin 2016 when I was finally ordained my dad was 89
- speakerand my mom was 87 and like I mean they
- speakercouldn't keep hanging around for things to happen.
- speakerSo I mean.
- speakerThat meant a lot to
- speakerthem and so I felt like I mean I guess one of the things
- speakerI want to say is like I felt really called
- speakerto be a candidate for ministry and to be in this process and one of the reasons
- speakerthat I did it is because you like the
- speakercall to be a pastor never very strong for me.
- speakerI really felt called to be in the process.
- speakerI felt called to be and out and to kind of play
- speakermy part in kind of moving the church forward.
- speakerBut like ordination itself just
- speakerhas never meant a great deal
- speakerto me for lots of reasons and I know
- speakerthat many for whom it does. Both the identity of being a pastor
- speakerand being so deeply called to that work
- speakerand ordination itself.
- speakerThose things are for some people are part of who
- speakerthey are. But that has never been true for me.
- speakerSo I hung
- speakerout with this question of whether to accept this
- speakerbeautiful invitation that this church had set before me for a long
- speakertime and finally it just seemed like the
- speakerwise and right thing to do is to say yes.
- speakerAnd
- speakerwhat was great about that is like it gave this Presbytery, Twin
- speakerCities Presbytery, the opportunity to again vote on my ordination
- speakerjourney. So that took place
- speakerand I went before the Presbytery in September
- speakerof 2016
- speakerI think it was and then I was ordained in October of
- speakerthat year and that was great. I mean it was one of those
- speakerterrible three hours service but like people
- speakercame from everywhere. People I adore from
- speakerall parts of my life and
- speakerthat was that was wonderful.
- speakerAnd. So you know this much is that it
- speakerties up that chapter. It was a beautiful way to tie up that chapter in my life and then
- speakerI'm still really happy at Lake Nokomis Presbyterian Church.
- speakerLike I'm still really happy when I go there and it feeds my soul.
- speakerIt's been hard to figure out how to be a part of the bigger church.
- speakerBut being a part of the little church is really nice.
- speakerI did want to ask you as well kind of you
- speakermentioned earlier you know these various various parts of your life, what
- speakerbarriers did you encounter also being blind in the Presbyterian
- speakerchurch? Do you think that this also affected your candidacy
- speakerat all for ordination?
- speakerI mean.
- speakerI like I have theories about that, but it's really hard to say.
- speakerI mean I think one of the things that I would often say is that like there
- speakeris a certain kind of paternalism towards people with disabilities
- speakerand and so sometimes I would meet these people who
- speakerjust really strongly
- speakerbelieved that LGBT people you know were
- speakersinful but then they would feel this
- speakerneed to be nice to me because I couldn't see. And so I just sort of witnessed this
- speakerkind of funny dilemmia being worked out.
- speakerAnd I think like when I was when I was first coming up I kind of felt
- speakerlike like getting a job in the church as a blind person would be difficult.
- speakerAnd so being out like I felt like I didn't have as much to lose because
- speakerit seemed like the likelihood of getting
- speakera church was a steeper road for me than
- speakerit was for some other reason then that that kind of might have been my own sort of
- speakerself-limiting belief.
- speakerBut I
- speakermean I think the other part of that is that you know being the journey
- speakerto figure out who I am as a queer person and the journey to figure out who
- speakerI am as a blind person. Those those things kjind
- speakerof echoed one another.
- speakerAnd it's
- speakerbeen it's been fun learning to love who
- speakerI am as a blind person and yeah sort
- speakerof like what I learned about self acceptance from being queer.
- speakerLike I learned about self acceptance as being a blind person and like
- speakerjust learning to celebrate like okay being blind doesn't mean that I'm like
- speakerless than, it just means that I'm different then and isn't
- speakerthat interesting and fun and
- speakerlike I just I feel a kind of openness and like a curiosity
- speakerand a lightness about that. I think I got
- speakerfrom hanging around fabulous queers
- speakerfor so long.
- speakerI can make you backtrack a little bit as well.
- speakerSo you were a staff person for That All May Freely Serve.
- speakerCan you talk a little bit about what your role was or what some of your responsibilities
- speakerwere in that position?
- speakerYeah. Again like you know what what Janie did was sort of figure
- speakerout like how can we spread this around. So originally we had this model where we created
- speakerregions and so there were seven regions around the country.
- speakerAnd the idea was to get out staff people
- speakerin those in those regions again to sort of press the ordination thing.
- speakerAnd so they, the board, decided that
- speakerthey needed a second staff person to kind of be be responsible for
- speakerthese regions. And so when I started with
- speakerThat All May Freely Serve in 2002 my job was as a regional partnership
- speakercoordinator. And then Janie retired
- speakerin 2007.
- speakerAnd then that kind
- speakerof the landscape of things had changed by that time and so the board decided
- speakerthat it returned just to have one staff person and we kind of reconfigured
- speakerthe region models in some way too.
- speakerAnyway so then so I became the minister or the minister
- speakercoordinator the sole staff person for the national That All May Freely Serve movement
- speakerwhich is
- speakerstill based out of Rochester, New York.
- speakerAnd you know
- speakeragain the genius.
- speakerI mean Janie but also Ginny Davidson and That All May Freely Serve
- speakerboard which was made up of folks from Rochester, New York and also from around
- speakerthe country was that they all really
- speakerwere committed to this model of changing
- speakerhearts and changing minds. Changing minds by changing hearts and changing hearts by building
- speakerrelationships.
- speakerAnd also to radical inclusivity.
- speakerLike we weren't going to push
- speakerfor ordination on
- speakerthe basis of sexual orientation without
- speakergender identity too. So and we
- speakerwere we were going to work work hard on our own racism and classism
- speakerand sexism too because it was sort of so fundamentally
- speakerconnected with the kind of feminist and liberationists theologies
- speakerThat All May Freely Serve. It really had that kind of
- speakersense of a
- speakerdeep commitment to liberationists identity.
- speakerThat was great. And so a lot of what I did was just travel around the country and support
- speakerpeople who were really doing their work on the ground in their various regions and then
- speakernationally when Janie retired nationally kind of again
- speakerjust doing that same thing. Figuring out how to support people to do the work.
- speaker
- speakerI do just have a couple last questions for you here.
- speakerI wanted to ask if there anything
- speakeranything you would say to, I mean I know it's a very different church today, but is there any advice that you would give or anything you would say to younger LGBTQ people in the
- speakerchurch who are possibly interested in pursuing ministry?
- speakerWell I mean we've begun to work on this, like what I would say to the church.
- speakerAnd this is starting to happen and I really value that it is
- speakerat that point.
- speakerWe're not done.
- speakerWe're not done reckoning with our past yet.
- speakerAnd we
- speakeras a church have some apologizing to do.
- speakerSo we've got to continue
- speakerto wrestle with that.
- speakerSo to the queers coming along,
- speakerI feel like one of the old-timers
- speakersaying like "know your history." I mean it really means
- speakerso much to me to know about the people who came before me.
- speakerLike it grounds me in a way and it makes me feel
- speakerso grateful and so humble and so if that's valuable
- speakerto folks I really would encourage
- speakerqueers coming up to know that history and care
- speakerfor it.
- speakerAnd then I mean I really, I do believe that because
- speakerof who we are, because of wrestling with what it means
- speakerto love and to be embodied and to
- speakerhave an identity that runs counter to the norm, I
- speakerfeel in a way that that's a gift all of us who are queer
- speakerhave been given. And so we have a certain
- speakerobligation to use that gift to keep
- speakerthe church
- speakeraccountable. To be on that radical edge.
- speakerI mean I think that those things like wrestling with what it
- speakermeans to love, wrestling what it means to be embodied
- speakeras a sexual person and all of that gives us a
- speakerkind of spiritual wellspring to draw on
- speakerthat we can offer the church. The church
- speakerhas got a lot of restoration to do. A lot of rebuilding to do.
- speakerAnd I really just I think queer
- speakercommunity has the kinds of gifts that the church needs right
- speakernow. And so you know
- speakerI don't know that the church is the place for everybody.
- speakerBut for those who find it to be home and who
- speakerfind spiritual sustenance there, to bring your gifts to
- speakerhelp rebuild the church.
- speakerI mean I think that is going to make all the difference.
- speakerI really do think it's young queers coming
- speakerup who are going to make a giant difference in what the church can become.