Leon Fanniel interviewed by Beth Shalom Hessel, 2017.

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This is Beth Hessel with the Reverend Dr. Leon Fanniel on August 28
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2017 at manifesto Grove in Pasadena California.
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Good morning Leon. Good morning guys.
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I'm so glad to have you here. Well it's nice to be with you.
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Thank you. So as I told you we're going to ask questions starting
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with your childhood. And I did do some snooping to find out a little bit more
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about you to help shape some questions.
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So you were born in Kansas City Missouri.
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And we make a clear distinction between Kansas City Missouri and Kansas
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City Kansas. So tell me about that Kansas City Missouri.
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Certainly in my time was the big cities.
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Kansas City Kansas was a little small town across the bridge.
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And so you were in the know you wanted to be in Kansas City Missouri
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and not Kansas.
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And so so some of us still carry.
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That idea with us. And what year were you born.
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I was born in cold December.
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Of 1930. 1930.
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And. That was.
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Kind of in the.
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Sky is the limit in the midst of the Depression.
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And I was the youngest of three
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children. My two older brothers had been
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around for a while there. There was ten eleven year difference in their
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age and my age. Wow.
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And so that's a big surprise.
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But. Born in December.
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And lived in Kansas City until.
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Nineteen forty.
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Seven.
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Went to elementary school.
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In Kansas City.
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My father was not a part of our family.
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I was born really.
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And so my mother did domestic work.
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And there was a member of the church where we attended.
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With whom I stayed.
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During the week as a young child.
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Stay with her husband.
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And he was a custodian and out and one of the.
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Tech high rise apartment buildings in the plaza area.
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In Kansas City.
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And so I lived in.
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The. All white community because unless you
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were in the janitorial service or in maid service you did not live in that
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area. And so I in
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my early years were in that setting.
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Where.
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My next door neighbor.
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Was. A little boy named Bobby.
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And of course the janitors.
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They were custodians and they were janitors lived in the basement
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apartment. So I.
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Uh. I lived in the basement apartment.
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Poverty his family lived in the first house.
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Next to us and we played together until.
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I guess I was five years old. I have six guys ready to go
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to to kindergarten.
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And all of a sudden.
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I had to take the bus.
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To go to the nearest.
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School for.
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Colored kids at that time.
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And Bobby walked two blocks to school
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and I never had an opportunity to play with Bobby after that
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Dad when we started school.
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That relationship.
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Just stopped.
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They didn't understand it for no he explained.
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Nobody explained why. Bob and I couldn't play and play together.
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So that was kind of my beginning.
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In terms of living in a city.
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Growing every Kansas City.
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The segregation there was was not like the segregation in the south.
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But my parents were.
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Both from Texas.
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I love that fact when I told her brothers were born in Texas.
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And then my mom and dad moved to Kansas City.
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During the early part of the Depression.
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And my father was.
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A chef. On the train and so there were more trains in
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Kansas City and in the Dallas Fort Worth area.
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And so I would go back to Dallas here particularly during
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the summer. And spend maybe a month or so with my mother's
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and my father's relatives there.
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So that's where I really got introduced to the south.
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And to.
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Jim Crow and all and it began.
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I began to understand that because when I went.
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To go to Dallas.
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And take the streetcar.
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I always had to move the sign that said for whites and Florida and colored in
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the back and sit behind the side which didn't make sense
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to me at first because you did not have to do that in Kansas City.
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You could go into.
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The store and ride public transportation
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you could drown clothes in the department stores as African-Americans
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couldn't.
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And if we went to the theater downtown.
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Were too were permitted to do what you had to sit in about it.
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So I grew up really in a black community.
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That was a strong.
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Nurturing black community.
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We had two teenagers. And so I found no need to go downtown.
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And.
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We had stories and things around.
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So that was kind of my world except that uh.
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The family that I lived with during the week.
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And until.
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I got into middle school.
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That always brought me back into the segregated world.
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And then I catch the bus and come back to my community.
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It sounds like you lived in three different absolutely had you have the you had the
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living in the white community collaborating with segregated in Kansas City.
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You had your black community in Kansas City.
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There many in Texas.
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Yeah. Which was really segregated really segregated Jim Crow.
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And.
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So that was my early childhood experience.
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I grew up in the costs of church in.
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Kansas City my mother and other relatives
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both in Kansas City and in Texas.
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Who. Were part of the Church of God in Christ commonly called
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Kojak.
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But that was my religious background.
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I was very active in.
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Church. My mother. Was also active she.
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Sang with beautiful voice.
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My two older brothers I understand.
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One played the mandolin the other and played another instrument.
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So they grew up as children in the church.
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Vowed never to go to church again.
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When. They go up not to go.
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But church had took on a different.
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Meaning for me.
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And so my church was very much a part of
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my growing up. I played the piano and.
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At the church along with the adult musicians
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and he started playing piano at a pretty young age.
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I did that.
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I was still in elementary schools.
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Matter of fact.
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And. My mother used to visit a
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member of the church.
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Who.
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For me was well-off.
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So there was a big house.
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My mother was a domestic.
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I always rented a room somewhere or couple of rooms.
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When I got over.
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With Mrs. Williams had a baby grand piano.
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And whenever I went there and mother went to visit her.
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I would immediately migrate to the panhandle.
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So I started playing the piano.
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In.
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And continue that into church.
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And.
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So I could play almost any anything I heard.
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I started playing by years play by your car.
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Yeah. And started off playing in.
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An unbelievable rookie in D flat.
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No not see your apogee.
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And.
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So for some unions and you deflowered you were in trouble.
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Yeah. People enjoy hearing me play.
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And while I was in elementary school.
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They had a music class that did not have pianos available.
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And so.
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Once a week we would go to the auditorium.
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And the teacher for that period.
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Would place cardboard keyboards across the front
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of the auditorium.
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And that's where I began to learn the keyboards.
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And.
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Finally learn.
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On my own to read.
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It wasn't until I went to college that I found that teacher.
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That had the patience.
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To work with me here in terms of actually learning how to read music.
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Wow. Until then you've been providing music leadership that your church.
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Oh yes I have.
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I played for the youth group the Church I played for
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for general worship.
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When I was in high school. At the church.
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We. Attended what was then the mother
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church the bishop church there.
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And.
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The older I became the more they used to
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me in terms of playing for a congregation of Satan.
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And.
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During that same period.
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Well when I went to high school.
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I got.
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Oh I was doing musicals.
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And at junior high and high school.
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Productions. Wow.
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Same way like playing music or slow lane and I'm.
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Directing my fact in junior high school.
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I directed the trolley.
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I think I guess the name was a play not good.
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The Trolley Song was the lead.
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Song in that. And so I had the responsibility coordinating
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the music with that.
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Now. And then in high school.
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We did a couple of.
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Like theatrical. Pieces.
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And I was fortunate again because it was a close.
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Black community you went to black.
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High school.
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And the person teaching music.
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Was Dr. Rivers who also directed the.
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John S. Williams chorale.
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They did opera the whole school of music.
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So that was my first introduction to opera.
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And sang with the Chorale and was about Tra La Traviata.
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Wow. And so my my my music just continued
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to expand.
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And. During that same time I.
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Landed a job at the.
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YMCA the same YMCA which was poor.
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Americans. And it was kind of a center
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of life in that community.
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And. Because you only had one hotel where Americans
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could stay.
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A lot of your.
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Prominent African Americans stayed at the YMCA because they had rooms
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right there.
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And it was during that time.
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And I guess made.
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My story in my senior year.
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Because I had.
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Had. To side to take.
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Great shorthand and typing and I.
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Resonated with that like.
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Surf on pancakes.
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I just love typing and I.
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Was so engrossed in great shorthand that you could see me walking to school.
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Or writing having Greg Sheridan in the air.
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Never thinking that that would be my entree to college.
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And so my senior year.
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Dr. curtain Dr. Carl Downes who was.
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Then the president of what was called Samuel
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Houston college in Austin Texas.
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It's now Houston Tustin University.
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But he was the president of the college.
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He was in Kansas City with the director
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of. Veterans Affairs.
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This was during World War Two era.
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Coordinating the National.
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Negro College Fund.
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And he kept watching me because I worked behind the desk in the evenings at the
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Y.
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And I guess into the second
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week or something like that.
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Mr. Anderson who is the veterans coordinator said you know.
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What are your plans for college.
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And I said well we're trying to get enough money
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to go to Lincoln University which was the black university in that area.
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You couldn't go to University of Missouri at that time.
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And.
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Mother was trying to figure out you know how
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did how did how did she have me to go to school.
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I would be the first in the family anywhere in my in my
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family to go to college.
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And. Mr. Anderson said well you know Dr. Downs is.
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Has really been impressed with your work.
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And my thought was you know how do you get an impression of my work.
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Yeah I'm here typing and checking the people at the rooms but
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long story short.
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He asked me one day what were my plans and I shared.
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Those plans with him of going to university.
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And he said do you think your mother would mind you coming to Texas.
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And I said well I know I've talked to her.
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She's from Texas. She might do like that.
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And. Out of that.
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Conversation.
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Dr. Downs awkward does.
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A phone for your scholarship.
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To Sam Houston.
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Work study scholarship.
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Where I was to work as student secretary in his office.
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And so that was the beginning of my.
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Cooperation to call it.
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That's amazing.
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And you. Know I had an interesting experience with my
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church during that period.
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Because I thought that.
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This church and my pastor would be excited.
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For that happening and.
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The congregation was.
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But I was just really set back by the pastor who started.
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The night that I was leaving for.
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Austin.
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Because he said you know you radio stay here and get your job.
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And help your mother.
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And I kept thinking you know why isn't he encouraging me.
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Because his children were going to college.
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And that left.
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A. Lot of bitter.
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Fear. But to a troubling fear of a.
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In terms of how.
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Pastors and the church.
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Should support.
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I thought you know I grew up that I grew up in that church.
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And to me they would be excited about that.
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Not even a give the go you know.
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So is there a little bit of a class issue there.
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Then the pastor versus I.
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What. It was a basically single parent domestic.
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I'm not sure what that was.
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Because there were several other people who know not a lot of people got rid of
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him were college trained but we had several teachers in the
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in the church.
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And I didn't know if he was thinking that because.
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My both my brothers were in the military.
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By that I was the only son left.
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And I don't know who said that you know my responsibility and focus
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ought to be on helping my mother who is still doing domestic work.
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And she was working hard to help me to get there also.
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And. And did you have a sense maybe that by getting a college degree
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you'd be able to help you have some other.
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In that way too. I wrote a letter.
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That my mother saved last year. I still a lot of it indicating.
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My gratefulness.
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To God for.
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Opening the opportunity but that the education that I
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would acquire I would to be able to use it within the church.
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And of course to have my mother.
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I was always on my to go.
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And yes.
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And so I went to college with that in mind.
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That I could come back come out get a job.
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And move mother into.
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Our own place where changed.
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Because.
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My my my living experience was always in someone else's
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home.
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Most I guess maybe a couple of times the mother had an apartment.
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Had.
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That was that was that was difficult in terms of.
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Being able to pay for it.
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So that was.
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I was a part of my college go.
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Was to be the first one in my family to go to college to get a good
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job. And then get a place or a mother and I.
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Could. Both today.
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And she said you also wanted to tease that college degree to help the
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church come to tell the story.
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What is your sense about work. I was calling you in the church at that time.
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Music.
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Yes I am.
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I've learned you develop my music.
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And I they to do anything else.
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That I was able to do in the church that I.
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As I said earlier.
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Unlike my two older brothers.
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Who.
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Were neighbor. Oh and I've said I'm not ever come into church and change that but
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for many years they did not.
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But I do just the opposite.
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I enjoyed working with the youth group.
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And. With the choirs and.
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The church kind of became.
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The place where I could use my gifts.
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And. And.
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Feel satisfied with doing that.
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And that occurred when I went to college.
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I.
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After I got to Samuel Houston.
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And that was a searing experience because I was one of the youngest males
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on.
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Campus it was at the end of World War Two in 1947.
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And because I graduate never 16.
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I'll see you right now you're young already.
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Yes. And.
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So most of the men on my campus were returning dead.
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And that was interesting experience.
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And of course I had no idea of college culture.
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Dr. Downs was a member of a for eternity.
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Of course I was offered to pledge for that and
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I did.
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And.
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One of the things you had to do was to shine.
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The other places shoes I said at one time my own shoes.
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I don't have time for this.
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And.
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So I know get out of that.
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You go. The paddling and all that.
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It just seemed do not do it.
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And so I said you know had and I think I can do without
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Alpha. Phi Alpha paternity.
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But. I. Started playing for a church in Austin.
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And are you majoring in music also. No.
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I had had a business major.
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You know what I had. I had a sociology major and
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a business minor.
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And.
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I had also been influenced by my work at the Y at the YMCA.
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And so I thought maybe this social work would be.
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The direction I want to go.
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And so I majored in sociology with a minor in business because I
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still had my great shorthand and my time record which
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came in handy for many many years.
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But I started playing for.
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One of the.
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Kojak churches.
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In Austin.
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And that led to me being asked to
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work with. Them at the Kennedy Heights Church
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of God in Christ. That was a.
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Prayer we would call a new church development out in a new part of Austin.
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Very dynamic preacher.
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And.
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So I started playing for the Kennedy Heights.
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And they began Sunday evening broadcast.
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Which was held at.
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The door in another auditorium.
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For. Blocks blacks and in Austin during Miller was
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a famous actor an American naval person during World War
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2.
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And so on Sunday evenings.
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During Miller our turn was packed.
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With people coming for that evening service.
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So I was the announcer and music.
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Coordinator for that.
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And I used to have to smile because.
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People would come. Both white and African-American.
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They weren't to see who this white announcer was.
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Just a black church.
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A surprise that.
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I didn't. I did not have a Texas accent and I didn't have much of a Missouri
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accent. But I'm not sure what I just did.
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That became a major religious event
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and its impact that too.
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Ah ah ah college.
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Doing it at the Kennedy Heights
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service at at the college which was a rare
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visit because I was a United Methodist at a Methodist Episcopal
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college.
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And.
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So my music just continued.
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And that's that's the way I pulled the teacher.
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By that time it our top of how to read music.
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But I found a piano teacher.
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Who said you know let's make a covenant.
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You play this music retreat written.
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And then you can improvise it.
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And so I would play it.
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And as you say Now let me see what you want to do with it.
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That's how I read it learn how to read music.
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And then I still do that do it.
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I'll I'll play it straight then depending on where I am.
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I'll improvise with it.
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But I enjoyed during work.
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Which came out of my experience.
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In. Austin.
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And I guess. One of the.
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Storied experiences for me while in college
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in addition to working with Dr. Downes who was a young is at African-American
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college president of the country at that time.
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That charter day after I came.
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Home. But.
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During that poor year period.
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Every year Jackson was during the
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concert during the auditorium.
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And one of the pre concert singers who
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was a minister in Dallas.
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Had contacted me to see if I would accompany him.
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As he did the pre concert program.
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And. So I said Sure I'd played for him before but I was in Dallas.
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And. To my amazement.
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When he came on.
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She told me to stay at the piano.
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Oh wow you've had it rehearsed with her and
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her heard her musician or that the organ.
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Noted falls. I'll never forget this.
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And.
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I said think you can do it.
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And so.
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I played a.
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Big part of that concert.
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And after the concert she said Would you stop by the hotel.
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There was.
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A couple of hotels not very good but W Hotel in
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Austin close to the campus.
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And I stopped by the next morning excited.
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And she wanted. She offered me a job traveling with her.
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Wow. And my first thought that would be
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marvelous.
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And my second thought was my mother will kill me.
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And so my mother won.
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My God. I would always have the what if right.
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Yeah. And.
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So that that was a great experience during that
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period. I had an opportunity to.
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Encounter you when I went to Chicago for grad school.
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I'm jumping a bit but I want to stay with them I hear you.
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Yes please.
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Because I've been asked by.
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A gospel song writer.
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That I. Was doing some work with Chicago.
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To come by.
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She had. A recording artist and she wanted
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me to. Play.
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One of her songs for her.
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Got to the house and it was Mahalia Jackson.
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And I had already graduated and had been in grad school in
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Chicago.
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But.
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I walked in this beautiful home in the South
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Side of Chicago.
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And I started playing.
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And she says I know you from somewhere.
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And I said.
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Well maybe.
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I I play.
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New red it. She says.
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As soon as I heard you hit play the piano I knew that I had heard
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you before.
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And I said Okay got that.
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So that was my two experiences with me here.
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And.
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That led to other opportunities.
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But that's that's as Chicago for the story.
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So Austin offered me a lot of different opportunities
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because of its segregation.
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I met.
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People like Mary Ann and Howard Thurman.
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And Rowan Hayes.
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Who stayed at on our campus at the president's home.
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Because there was not a decent hotel where they could stay.
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And. I remember.
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Marian Anderson. Came.
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And she had.
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Been in Dallas and Neiman Marcus.
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And had worn the trousers shoes.
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And of course because you've got American and denied her
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the opportunity to do that.
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Of course they didn't know where she was.
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And apparently.
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They found out after she left.
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That was Marian Anderson.
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And while she was.
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At our president's home in Austin and I haven't been
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there that day.
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Neiman Marcus sent. A truck.
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Full of shoes.
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And I learned such a marvelous lesson from Marian Anderson.
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But that is when.
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They came and knocked on the door.
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I believe I left them in.
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The. Car.
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But they explained that they had come to apologize for Neiman Marcus.
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They brought shoes for her to try out.
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And she in her gracious manner.
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Said Well thank you. Put it back.
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Couldn't find the store.
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I wanted try them on here.
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And as you can see that has stayed with me.
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Ever since. That's my call.
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Is.
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I meant how Howard Thurman.
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Became an. Avid fan of Howard Thurman.
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As he spoke was one of our speakers one year to Kathy's.
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Roland Hayes noted tenor.
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Who refuse to sing at the University of Texas who said the best African American
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could come. To hear the concert because at that time you could not.
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Pay on the YouTube campus unless you were working
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there.
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And so I had some.
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Experiences in the segregated South that
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I've had some bad ones I have doubt about but uh.
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I assume some good experiences.
speaker
Particularly with African-Americans that.
speaker
Really have to shake right. Think a bit of where I am now.
speaker
So that's my.
speaker
Bit of my Austen and college story.
speaker
So when you met Howard Thurman he was just starting the church
speaker
in San Francisco. Yes that's correct.
speaker
So he was just honest. And did you recognize when you heard him speak.
speaker
What a great man he was.
speaker
Are were you. I'm thinking about you know 20 year olds are need
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some don't always recognize what's in front of us.
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Did you recognize who you were listening to.
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In my years in college a black college.
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When they had.
speaker
The Lyceum series or the speaker series you went to chapel.
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Where you did two or not.
speaker
And so I went.
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And even turned a three three day series.
speaker
And I've always been kind of particular about my dress.
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You know that's my shoes are geared more to match.
speaker
And so when Dr. Downs introduce Dr. read.
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This rather unattractive man.
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Came to the podium.
speaker
His coat was wrinkled.
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And he wrapped one foot around the front part of the podium.
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And his shoes were not shined.
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And I said Oh this is not going to be your job
speaker
to go around and look up.
speaker
And he started speaking.
speaker
And for the next three days.
speaker
I was on the front row.
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And and now there's too many other students.
speaker
But that I knew after here his first presentation.
speaker
That there was something about that man I warned him now.
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That I have now. Most of his books I think I have all of his
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tapes.
speaker
And. He has quite an influence
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on my theological thinking.
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And my shaping film industry.
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So what was it that he was saying at that time that you remember that really
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influenced you when you were in college.
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You know I don't know that I really remember.
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I think I was overall sharing of his space.
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That said the simplicity of it.
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And it was simple yet it was so deeply profound
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that.
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I spent years wrestling.
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With. A lot of what he was saying.
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That's what drew me to his books to read some
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things that he was saying.
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That there was a spirit there.
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That. Connected with my.
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Now with him and by no stretch of the a message that was.
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That was a sweet spirit.
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If I can use that phraseology.
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That.
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Presented the gospel in such some plastic that way.
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And yet it was not.
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It was not a cheap grace that he talked about.
speaker
But he talked about the power or grace of God.
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That's available and.
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What that means to.
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A Christian or demeaning to a person's profession professing
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Christian faith.
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And how your relationship with God and with Jesus Christ
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ought to shape you into something that is a new creation.
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And order. Also challenge you.
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To be the Christ in.
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Port someone else particularly for the disinherited.
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And.
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Some of those those it is.
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It is not just the one thing you have just whose whole.
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Presence. And the fact the issues were that and is
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called wrinkle. Just be aware of that a deliberate.
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Act I heard in the first to hide.
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That I must have been really powerful these days here and see that witnesses
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as a young man growing up with so much segregation and.
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Filing violence against you as a person because of your color and your skin.
speaker
That that to hear that that message of faith have
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a way of approaching the world.
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Well it was I said it made quite a difference as
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did others but.
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Enough the king had a similar impact.
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I met him later in Chicago but.
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I think it enabled me to exist.
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In in the segregated South.
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Even coming from.
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Kansas City.
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That experience was differently than my Texas experience.
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And I had some bad experiences in Texas.
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But I had some worse experiences.
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As I travel. During my college summers.
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With the evangelists.
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I remember.
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My.
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First summer. I think.
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I travel with noted black evacuees out of Kansas
speaker
City and he was running revivals
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in Louisiana.
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And just the indignity of asking for a restroom.
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And being shown the drain in.
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The gas station where they repair their cars.
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And he was driving.
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A Cadillac.
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And in New Orleans nowhere near Shreveport.
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We went there. That's when they still use ice.
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Went to an ice house.
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And the white owner.
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Was going to bring the ice to the car until
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he recognized that there was a Cadillac.
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And he threw it out on the ramp.
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And says you get it yourself.
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You know or to be an.
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Indiana. Go to Presbyterian Men's.
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National Convention.
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Uh.
speaker
I was traveling with two or three other white.
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Presbyterian men who were headed for the committee.
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And.
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We stopped at a restaurant for dinner.
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And we. I think we each to order a steak.
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And so the waitress offered to seat the two white
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men that had not been easy.
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And.
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She brought mine in a brown paper bag.
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And I said.
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I did not order a man to go.
speaker
Her communal water are we don't speak your kind here.
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And then the next morning.
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We all laughed and she said What am I supposed to do with these three steaks I says well
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I got a couple suggestions of what you can do with it.
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And never left. Left it at that.
speaker
Then the next morning early this morning about six or six thirty we stopped in a place.
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Just hoping that Ohio.
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And we were going to.
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Clean that club. So somewhere in Ohio of a national
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men's convention restaurant men.
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And we went into this roadside restaurant.
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And. The owner didn't say anything.
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Except that except to have a seat.
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And he immediately poured out in the shade.
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And. The white man traveling with me did not.
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Plan to do it. Oh so I ask him what you call a shakedown.
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He says Well.
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I have no problem with.
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Serving you. But if my customers solely serve
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in here.
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They would be terribly upset.
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So that grossly reckless environment
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in which.
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We eat. As I was headed to be with the
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white Christians. In Ohio.
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Were nice impression and then convince you that in the 1950s.
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That was in the early 60s and 60s.
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I got stores 30 0 0 0 0 0
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0. So you you you finished it at Sam Houston
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and then you Samuel Houston.
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And.
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I had one.
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About that time Dr. down had died.
speaker
And I was reassigned.
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To as assistant librarian.
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And really God can turn on the library science.
speaker
And so I applied to Columbia University
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and New York and doesn't said that all faiths.
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Oh God loves us too.
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The reality was that that was to Portland Kansas.
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But social work was still.
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In the back of my mind.
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And so I applied to George Williams College in Chicago.
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Which was a school that training YMCA workers
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and social group work and they all had a masters degree
speaker
in that and the YMCA had had such
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an impact on me.
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This was so YMCA that.
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I realized after I had gotten into grad school.
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And was doing field work at Chicago and Chicago I am saves the Wabash
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y.
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That.
speaker
At least in Chicago. In Chicago the program was so
speaker
prescribed and it left no flexibility
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for creativity.
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With us as you did this whether this is what you need to do do it.
speaker
And I said yeah and is.
speaker
That George Williams also train people or social
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group work in community houses.
speaker
And so I did my first year here work.
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At. The Southern White House in Gary.
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Which is quite an experience there.
speaker
As well in the area in the steel mills were.
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In turmoil that people were losing their work and people were sleeping in their cars
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because they had lost.
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Their jobs because the 50 quid that was my.
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The one.
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To one to two.
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And I did my second.
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Part of my second year at whole house.
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In Chicago.
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And that was an experience that was creepy.
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Tell me about housing is creepy.
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It did. It did.
speaker
It was oh the building was a home.
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And it was Jane Addams goes still say hello to
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you. Oh.
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I spent half of my career work there and I told my great work about it.
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I said you know.
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I really can't deal with this.
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It is too.
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If.
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It doesn't meet the need for the community where I want to be working.
speaker
What was it primarily a European immigrant.
speaker
Yeah.
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Yeah. And that involved me as much as that did that part about
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me except that their whole approach.
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To.
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Working with with groups.
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Was different than my sensitivity.
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Called for.
speaker
And so I did the remainder of my work at the McKinley.
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Community center on the South Side of Chicago.
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Which was predominantly black.
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And that it was quite an experience.
speaker
Because I also realized that.
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When there I had to do had to do actual program.
speaker
Including working with it all girls knitting class.
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And if.
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You can just imagine me on.
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The State Street Trolley.
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At night coming home and I'd sit in the back.
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Trying to learn how to to what
speaker
for tap.
speaker
And people staring at that I had to be ready for
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the next day because the project was so the girls
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needed to learn how. To knit two bags.
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Your simple bags.
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Had you any idea when you went into social work.
speaker
No learning to Nando.
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They did quite well with it as a matter of fact.
speaker
But that was the kind of diversity that really excited me.
speaker
Right across the street to the Kennedy house was a dollhouse.
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And I called the police department to report.
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That it was being so out of the bottom
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apartment.
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And. They said to pour this over.
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And. I left.
speaker
And I said to myself those are the same two men I said Call whom we have before.
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Well the bottom line was.
speaker
That they were in cahoots.
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With the police department.
speaker
And.
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Then again the house built.
speaker
A new facility. There were no brownstones but a new facility.
speaker
And I was employed.
speaker
There. And I was doing great and we were having
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a lot of doing that.
speaker
And somebody shot at someone else and the bullet
speaker
went by me that's it said that's the end of that.
speaker
And then I.
speaker
Was offered a position with the Chicago Department of Public.
speaker
Welfare.
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And because I had been in grad school.
speaker
They were.
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Happy. That. I'm sure it's picking it up I'll bring offering some work
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as long as you can. Make sure you stay.
speaker
With. As I.
speaker
Said the governor committee wealthy.
speaker
Chicago Department of Public Welfare.
speaker
And because of my graduate work I was immediately given
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special project assignments.
speaker
And so my first assignment was to work
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with.
speaker
Low income families moving in to what was in the new Robert Taylor
speaker
Homes in Chicago.
speaker
And this was.
speaker
A.
speaker
Row of high rise apartment
speaker
grants for almost 10 blocks.
speaker
They have finally torn him down because it became so bad.
speaker
That at that time the Chicago Housing Authority.
speaker
Started off in the right direction.
speaker
They were training particularly mothers single mothers
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some families who had never all had their own place.
speaker
And so my project was home making.
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To set up a training program that would help
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the person moving in.
speaker
To the shop to maintain an apartment.
speaker
To relate to the housing authority that kind of thing.
speaker
And you couldn't move in until you went through that training process.
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And that was.
speaker
That was a rewarding experience to work with.
speaker
Families coming into the Robert Taylor Homes.
speaker
I then worked with.
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And immigrant group Hungarian.
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Immigrants that were coming into Chicago I supervised
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that program.
speaker
Port Chicago Public Welfare.
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And.
speaker
Had some interesting experiences with that.
speaker
And so my work with Chicago Public
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Welfare.
speaker
Moves from being casework very quickly.
speaker
And to more social work and the gang group
speaker
work. Activities as if.
speaker
It was true at in McKenna house.
speaker
And then I stayed in the county Cook County
speaker
took over Chicago Public Welfare and became a whole county program.
speaker
I became a supervisor and that to turn over
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and supervise special projects.
speaker
Where I had casework staff.
speaker
And so that was it was about ten years
speaker
of entertaining involvement and as a caseworker I
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had.
speaker
I had skid row to Chicago for a while.
speaker
And then I had Hyde Park
speaker
which at that time was noted for narcotics.
speaker
And had some narrow escapes to.
speaker
Get in.
speaker
And.
speaker
Then as a supervisor.
speaker
I had some difficult areas.
speaker
I remember when I was still in Hyde Park and were that's in the ever Chicago area.
speaker
I was walking down the street and I
speaker
heard.
speaker
This group of young men behind me and I tried to make
speaker
it my business to be out of the area before sunset.
speaker
And fast try walked the faster they walked.
speaker
And then I heard some I said Oh man that's Mr. Canyon your own
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body.
speaker
You are now an entertainer.
speaker
So is this much you thought social work was gonna be when you're
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preparing to become a social worker.
speaker
Yes. Again it's closer to the kind of
speaker
things that I had experienced in Kansas City because
speaker
Special Branch YMCA did all of it.
speaker
There was only one way across the street on
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grass was the YWCA.
speaker
So that became kind of a social work center.
speaker
So it was much more.
speaker
Social work unquote oriented than just group
speaker
programs.
speaker
So that was closer to what I was looking for.
speaker
I never did the.
speaker
Well I think when I was supervising.
speaker
That was probably one of my better gifts
speaker
to the agency because I brought
speaker
a trained understanding of dealing with people.
speaker
And what case workers need to have other than how to
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fill out forms and so if you were in my unit.
speaker
You had you learn how to deal with the clients.
speaker
I remember.
speaker
Going down to.
speaker
The waiting room.
speaker
A caseworker called this I really got a problem here.
speaker
Keep in mind this was back in.
speaker
The.
speaker
60s.
speaker
And.
speaker
Oh I was. No I was supervising a unit an
speaker
intake.
speaker
And the work came over and as.
speaker
You know the police the private party and this man
speaker
and.
speaker
I don't know quite what to do with him and I said well what's the problem.
speaker
He says well he's a she
speaker
and I said What do you mean.
speaker
He's a she.
speaker
Well. That's the situation was.
speaker
This where we would not call a transgender person.
speaker
But this was a man who had a job in Evanston
speaker
Illinois working as a domestic.
speaker
Home. There.
speaker
As a female domestic.
speaker
And. The police put police who arrested him.
speaker
Took his clothes.
speaker
And he says you do.
speaker
We can't do anything with this. I said Sure we can.
speaker
And here's what.
speaker
I says. Give them a voucher or some clothes.
speaker
You mean women's clothes. I said yes.
speaker
I said Does it make sense to you if a person has a job
speaker
and is working on a job.
speaker
Our responsibility is to get that person back into important care.
speaker
This man some called a woman die and
speaker
let him go back to work.
speaker
They took it wagon a whole whole bit.
speaker
So I signed a voucher for him to
speaker
get a new hairpiece
speaker
dress and wear whatever he needed so he could then go back work he
speaker
went back to work.
speaker
So it was those kinds of incidents.
speaker
I go. Way back then with lesbian
speaker
couples who were living together and roommates
speaker
and our husbands
speaker
who
speaker
were.
speaker
Out of the home and because
speaker
the policy was that if the husband is not working
speaker
it was not working he could not be in the home.
speaker
And I kept saying well you know what.
speaker
What happens to him.
speaker
And so if a worker would visit.
speaker
And on occasion would encounter a man in the home.
speaker
Then the movement was taken off public assistance.
speaker
Like the children must go down the well.
speaker
Absolutely. But but that would that was a that was true.
speaker
And so you would find men in all different places policy
speaker
not legally married in all different places than the courts.
speaker
And so you're right.
speaker
I would work with hours with my staff in terms of
speaker
taking a look at what is the real situation here.
speaker
And what can our policies do.
speaker
Because I was one of those I that I would read the policies
speaker
and I read the pauses when they changed and.
speaker
I was able to get things for clients in my unit that no
speaker
other.
speaker
Unit it was getting. How did you do that.
speaker
I said it's right here in the new policy.
speaker
Oh I hadn't read.
speaker
About that. You know those are small things and yet
speaker
it did.
speaker
It was a part I think my way of trying to help people grow who
speaker
rewarded to continue serving the needs of people.
speaker
And you know my experience with public welfare has been
speaker
and I.
speaker
I think it's even worse now. Even though their requirements are different.
speaker
That.
speaker
He we don't fit into a particular Mo.
speaker
Then you're in trouble.
speaker
Many more people like you.
speaker
Well
speaker
I'm one of those that if there is
speaker
a need and there is a way of resolving it why
speaker
not do it if it's legal.
speaker
So during the same time.
speaker
That's right. You made a move from being
speaker
a leader in music and Church of God in Christ Church to Presbyterian
speaker
Charles.
speaker
Well how do you manage to get there.
speaker
Yes.
speaker
Mean during my time working with
speaker
Cook County Department of Public Welfare that
speaker
because I was working with music and Church
speaker
of God in Christ.
speaker
That when I was one the supervisors.
speaker
Asked me if I would be willing to
speaker
consider.
speaker
Coming to her church as a candidate or director of music.
speaker
And so I said you know a church is is said was Hope Presbyterian
speaker
Church.
speaker
And my first response was What is that.
speaker
And she did her best to explain what a Presbyterian or.
speaker
And.
speaker
Of course I was already into doing anthem and classic
speaker
music. Church music in coach a guy who was known as
speaker
that strange director who did those fancy solos
speaker
along with gospel music.
speaker
So I would have had my reputation that go on nationally.
speaker
So I've known it several years.
speaker
Yeah. That that me interested in seeing what they were looking for.
speaker
So I met with the committee and the pastor.
speaker
And I explain know my experience and what.
speaker
I understood the music of the church
speaker
to to mean and how that
speaker
can help a church to grow.
speaker
And how to be supportive of the pastor in his or.
speaker
Well this is an industry that I.
speaker
So I would I would ask to come and audition
speaker
with the choir and ended up
speaker
spending. Time in 12 years or so at Hope.
speaker
And that's how I became involved with the pressure in church.
speaker
Their service was probably eleven or twelve.
speaker
And I could still leave Hope and get to my church and still have
speaker
another hour or so for worship.
speaker
And I I I enjoyed
speaker
that hymns and spirituals.
speaker
They did not do many.
speaker
To my amazement Hope Church was it was the second oldest
speaker
black Christian church in Chicago.
speaker
There was a Grace Church and then hope.
speaker
And.
speaker
I remember introducing a Negro spiritual.
speaker
And it had a little bit to it.
speaker
And while the choir members said well what is this.
speaker
And of course I was young and Cattleman's Hartnett and
speaker
this is a spiritual they will ever learn how to sing that.
speaker
Of course.
speaker
Three months later she was patting her feet.
speaker
Oh but.
speaker
I was able to bring an end to that
speaker
my sense.
speaker
Of music as a ministry.
speaker
And the church grew as a result of
speaker
the music and.
speaker
And I hope it's very conscious of not overshadowing
speaker
the pastor.
speaker
But I knew why people were coming and that was okay.
speaker
If they didn't get the best sermon in the world
speaker
they could leave with the music and still have been blessed
speaker
in that worship experience.
speaker
And so we we worked with that.
speaker
And after about a year or two.
speaker
I kept thinking you know what am my going to different churches.
speaker
And I asked a friend of mine who.
speaker
Was then a recording artist.
speaker
She had her own group. I played for the group as a matter of fact.
speaker
Were their recordings.
speaker
And I asked Margaret
speaker
Aiken's.
speaker
I said you know I've got this feeling that
speaker
I really don't need to be going home.
speaker
You know Hope Church to prayer garden which was a church that I got
speaker
where I belong.
speaker
And. I was expected her to say well
speaker
you know that you need to stay
speaker
where you are. So that you will be saved
speaker
you know. And that's not what she said.
speaker
She said to me she says well listen if God is leading you in that direction
speaker
you need to follow that. You can serve God wherever you are.
speaker
And I had not expected that out of Margaret.
speaker
And.
speaker
Then I shared with my mother what
speaker
I was thinking.
speaker
And cut my mother's first comment.
speaker
What does the Presbyterian church.
speaker
Do they believe in Jesus Christ.
speaker
And will you still be saved.
speaker
What was like.
speaker
And I was able to convince my mother that you know
speaker
this is another Christian community that believes a century
speaker
the same thing that we do with a manifest that differently.
speaker
I said but this is where I feel god calling
speaker
me and I don't know if my mother ever said
speaker
it was all right but she she decided to
speaker
let me do what I've done for years anyway.
speaker
But what I'd planned to do and so I became a lover of Hope
speaker
Church in.
speaker
The mid 50s.
speaker
And I stay there and tell.
speaker
I graduated seminary in 69.
speaker
And how do you go from being a social worker who band and music music
speaker
minister to being famous seminary student.
speaker
Well I was in hope.
speaker
In addition to the music and as I said the music industry really grew
speaker
I developed never. They added an additional
speaker
section to the choir law.
speaker
And I started what was known as the hope ensemble
speaker
and the hope ensemble did the.
speaker
Light gospel and
speaker
some of the early praise type music.
speaker
And so you could come to a Sunday morning and
speaker
hear Chopin Ashford.
speaker
Lift up your hair your gates a Negro spiritual and
speaker
a gospel song.
speaker
And is to show you that different to how the church
speaker
grew. With that.
speaker
Said the choir grew too. They had to build an additional section
speaker
in the choir loft.
speaker
Once and the choir was doing.
speaker
Herbert left Mt. Zion rejoice.
speaker
And when the baritones started saying
speaker
that part of walk around his eye and tell all about it
speaker
the pastor's wife who sat in the back of the church all the time
speaker
stood up and says Hallelujah.
speaker
And that is it.
speaker
What in the world is going know that never happened.
speaker
Was material jobs like.
speaker
That. Oh Lord.
speaker
But uh.
speaker
That was that that was the change that was taking place
speaker
in the church. We never stop saying.
speaker
I'm a mixture of music.
speaker
As a matter of fact and I'll get to your question in just a second.
speaker
When I first came they had little black robes or white white
speaker
white collars and I said oh that's not going to work.
speaker
And so we put on a musical
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to raise money for new robes.
speaker
That had a little color tune.
speaker
And the turnout was just fantastic.
speaker
And hope is not a large church.
speaker
So that there were people who could not get in.
speaker
That music would turn into an annual event.
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Where we had to rent no make use of
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the large elite church in the community in order
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to houses the crowd.
speaker
So the hope became known for its music
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industry.
speaker
And during that time after I became a member
speaker
of the church I started
speaker
also working with Christian education.
speaker
And we were doing an experiment.
speaker
During Christian education or Saturday rather than Sunday.
speaker
So that we had more time and could do so many other
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types of things.
speaker
And we knew we'd gotten a grant from Presbyterian
speaker
to do that.
speaker
And so that
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project got me interested in.
speaker
Christian education.
speaker
And I said Well you know I'd like maybe to take several courses
speaker
at seminary so I can increase my knowledge and
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skills and that as well.
speaker
And I couldn't find a seminary Chicago area they had evening classes.
speaker
Except Moody Bible that city.
speaker
And so I signed up and moving went to classes that said low.
speaker
This is not where to be.
speaker
At the same time the Presbyterian was doing a project with.
speaker
Not to remember his name. Now
speaker
his last name was white. He was executive.
speaker
In the Washington D.C. area for a while.
speaker
But anyway. It was a special national mission
speaker
funded project for urban ministry.
speaker
And we went to Senate school that year
speaker
did some stuff.
speaker
And he says oh no why don't you
speaker
maybe go out to McCormick and see what
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they have to offer. They may even have some scholarships.
speaker
Well bottom line to that was I went down to McCormick.
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They of course had no evening classes and by August.
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At 65.
speaker
I was resigning from my
speaker
position as administrator.
speaker
Public Welfare and going to seminary
speaker
and that's how I got to McCormick Seminary.
speaker
And I.
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I'd been in seminary I guess.
speaker
One semester.
speaker
And in the midst of that one semester my wife.
speaker
We've been married 10 years and decided that this was really
speaker
this was really for me and not for her.
speaker
And. So she left.
speaker
And.
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I realized that I was floating in deep water
speaker
and did not know really what I need.
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I started questioning. This is really what God had intended for
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me to do.
speaker
And so I dropped out the second semester and call
speaker
personnel at the Department of Public Welfare and said Do you have anything
speaker
I need to get back in the suddenly for me.
speaker
For a little while.
speaker
And he had a special the director of personnel had a special
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project going on training.
speaker
People for second locations.
speaker
And he says you know I need you to supervise that program.
speaker
And so I spent that semester working and praying.
speaker
To see if I could get a clearer sense of what I thought God was calling
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me to do.
speaker
And by the end of that semester
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at that I was away.
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I bought a car because I lived on the South Side and seminary was still on the north
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side. I went back to McCormick and signed
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up. And that next September I was back in school and
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the rest is history.
speaker
So supervising a program on second locations clarified.
speaker
Yes. Yes it did.
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And.
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And I've always been very grateful.
speaker
Or Mr. Hayes who is the director of personnel at
speaker
Cook County at that time.
speaker
Far from making a job
speaker
for me.
speaker
You know he could have put me back as a case worker but he says.
speaker
And indeed it was a good experience.
speaker
Again I was working with people who were in transition.
speaker
And so my skills were.
speaker
Useful in doing that.
speaker
So I went back.
speaker
I knew that that's what I was going to do.
speaker
But I had not decided that the parish was
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my go.
speaker
I had the option of Christian education had the option of social work.
speaker
McCormick had a dual social work program at that time
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with an urban focus.
speaker
So it was not until my senior year.
speaker
That I decided that I would go for the nation.
speaker
And I didn't know what my chances were because after I got on cap.
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I got into more stuff.
speaker
There were not very many African-Americans at McCormick
speaker
and none on the soccer team.
speaker
The Hawk had little.
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There had been a Black Hawk.
speaker
Professor Homer that ex who had retired.
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That he was the only one that had ever had there.
speaker
And the staff there were no African-Americans.
speaker
And I was at some of the students
speaker
started raising questions about that.
speaker
And I was in the library.
speaker
Standing in my cubicle one day.
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A student came by and says Do you want to sign this.
speaker
I looked at it. I said No I don't want to sign it because it's not well
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written.
speaker
And to get hearing of it.
speaker
And so I rewrote it.
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And that was a mistake.
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My seven year career.
speaker
Because they took that petition.
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And out of that grew a resistance project
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on McCormick campus.
speaker
That.
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Turned out to be a powerful experience.
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I was asked to.
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Chair the committee of his committee that was made up of
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students and power. Good day and community
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persons have some somebody from the churches
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in the community.
speaker
And Dr. Charles Marx who had just come to
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all of it. Church on the Near North Side was the
speaker
pastor coming from the community.
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And.
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The bottom line of that after I was told by the president is that.
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He didn't know why was this was in a public meeting.
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He did not know why I was at McCormick because
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I had no future in the Presbyterian Church.
speaker
And so we had our little comments back and forth.
speaker
His wife accused me of trying to destroy his
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his ministry and that is now he's done a good job with that on his own.
speaker
And.
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The dean had told me when I first
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registered that he was not sure that I could
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make it. I had a car wreck because I graduated from a small black college.
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And.
speaker
I was able to.
speaker
Tell him when I graduated with honors with
speaker
a recognition for the work I had done.
speaker
Have a rap passed by him I couldn't help but say you see I told you I'd make
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it but that
speaker
that was a part of my experience at my end.
speaker
And it was a it was a good experience.
speaker
Ed McCormick has some excellent teachers here.
speaker
And I think I was well equipped
speaker
in a number of areas and other areas.
speaker
I was not a corpsman with.
speaker
I had a program at that time where he kind of shape your own curriculum.
speaker
So I had refused to take.
speaker
A home and let six course from the pastor at.
speaker
This church John big church on the North Side of Chicago.
speaker
A. Sign.
speaker
That's interesting I'm actually applying for it now.
speaker
But. The pastor was from
speaker
either Scotland and Wales and I
speaker
could speak and I said But you know.
speaker
I need to take a course.
speaker
In home that is going to help me to preach to people work where I'm going to be.
speaker
A fourth church and I'm not going to be at fourth church.
speaker
And.
speaker
You didn't think adopting a Scottish idea was not going to help me.
speaker
Not in those days.
speaker
And so they allowed me to
speaker
shape a course.
speaker
Which included Jeremiah Wright and other
speaker
black and Anglo preachers. It was a mixture.
speaker
But I said I really need to be able to equip myself for a multicultural
speaker
setting. And at this point poor African-American saying
speaker
that that's why I will be.
speaker
And lo and behold it took me five six years to get there.
speaker
But my use in McCormick were good
speaker
years.
speaker
And when I graduated
speaker
from a Corvette.
speaker
To my amazement I was elected to the board of trustees.
speaker
It was one of the things that we were fighting about.
speaker
And then I convinced Ed Hawkins to
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also consider coming on.
speaker
So he came on the board and continued well after I moved to Southern
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California.
speaker
Brought a new record on the faculty and that
speaker
was kind of a turning point.
speaker
Not that I did that but I was I was a part of that period.
speaker
Part of the conversation. Yeah. For that conversation and.
speaker
The transformation that began to take place.
speaker
Comes a very different school than it was when I went there
speaker
and.
speaker
The fact is the the over 60 is 65.
speaker
But it's different in large part because of the work that you.
speaker
And some others too.
speaker
Well I think there was I think that was the beginning of it.
speaker
Yeah I had a student contact me who some years ago
speaker
she was doing a paper or that on that Peri.
speaker
And.
speaker
So you can see it must have had some kind of lasting
speaker
impact if students were doing right papers on it but it was it was
speaker
quite a period.
speaker
And then your first call was Chicago Presbyterian but
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it was not to a parish.
speaker
Oh you have been doing your work haven't you.
speaker
Yes sir.
speaker
When I graduated and I think I got
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into talking about the student
speaker
incident.
speaker
I wasn't sure that I was even interested in our nation.
speaker
And I was taking my exams.
speaker
I was asked.
speaker
What I would do when the questions was why did.
speaker
Geithner. Why did I.
speaker
Want to be ordained.
speaker
And I said well I really am not that interested in being ordained I think I've already
speaker
been ordained.
speaker
God has called me to a ministry has and it is
speaker
a me for that ministry said if I
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am ordained it so that I can relate.
speaker
To my community because an ordained minister.
speaker
Has an entree.
speaker
That a lay person would not have.
speaker
Said so that would probably be my whole reason for the nation.
speaker
As a minister of word and sacrament.
speaker
And so I kind of figured with that answer I blow blow.
speaker
But then. They let me pass.
speaker
And.
speaker
My last year fieldwork.
speaker
Last two years I guess after work.
speaker
Was what was with what was called the South Central Planning Council.
speaker
And that was a cluster of twelve black Presbyterian churches.
speaker
On the Near North and South and West Side of Chicago.
speaker
And I think there were three neighbourhood houses that were predominantly
speaker
African-American.
speaker
And.
speaker
So I worked and worked there with Edgar Ward who was
speaker
the executive director of South Central Planning Council and
speaker
he was also an associate executive at the press secretary.
speaker
One associates for urban ministry.
speaker
And so I really had a great time working with those churches
speaker
and in my own church.
speaker
It's a part of that.
speaker
And so when I graduated the call that was
speaker
extended and I accepted.
speaker
Was a call to serve as.
speaker
The.
speaker
Education coordinator.
speaker
For the churches in South Central Planning Council.
speaker
And. In.
speaker
Due course and my social work background.
speaker
To also be a liaison with the three neighborhood centers.
speaker
So that's what I was ordained to do.
speaker
And I went to Europe with a couple
speaker
of friends.
speaker
For two weeks after graduation some friends got here and gave me some money
speaker
to work with my.
speaker
And.
speaker
When I got back.
speaker
Charles Marx who is pastoring at that.
speaker
Met me at the airport.
speaker
And you know I thank him for meeting me.
speaker
And he said well you know the pastor's bypasses.
speaker
So you on that over and need to let you know.
speaker
That your call has been changed.
speaker
And I said What do you mean my call has been changed.
speaker
Who are you talking about.
speaker
Well. The Presbyterian in my absence.
speaker
Had taken an action.
speaker
As a result of Ed Juanita resigning to go to the border national missions.
speaker
To extend me a call as.
speaker
The director of South Central Planning Council.
speaker
And as an associate for Urban Ministries.
speaker
And so I never got a chance to do the first sort of cookbook.
speaker
And so that was in 69.
speaker
And we changed the South Central Planning Council to associate Urban Ministries.
speaker
And we restructured that.
speaker
And got became much more programmatic.
speaker
And in working with the churches.
speaker
And.
speaker
Then I had.
speaker
I was a side Chicago press ahead head out in Portage
speaker
some churches. And so we were broken up in commission units.
speaker
And I had to mission both of which were urban inner
speaker
city white friends.
speaker
That kind of thing.
speaker
Maybe Howard Rice was
speaker
still a pastor in Chicago at that time.
speaker
I was approved for our nation at the church.
speaker
He passed it on the west side.
speaker
And.
speaker
I did I did that to work for the Presbyterian.
speaker
And in the midst of that I
speaker
got a call from the Center of Southern California Hawaii from
speaker
Sherman Skinner who was also chairing
speaker
the restructuring committee for the denomination.
speaker
And he was the interim senator executive and
speaker
he said that had been given my name and would
speaker
I be interested in.
speaker
Considering a position as an associate executive.
speaker
For current Gage Presbyterian congregation development.
speaker
In the Senate.
speaker
I would be the first to say this about new would be the first African-American.
speaker
Associate.
speaker
And I said you know I'm really just getting into what I'm doing.
speaker
Here. I really. Enjoy.
speaker
I'm hoping to take a lunch break soon.
speaker
And really enjoy it.
speaker
I have no desire.
speaker
I have no desire to come to California.
speaker
So I don't wanna waste your money about coming out there.
speaker
He says well it's our money.
speaker
And.
speaker
So I agreed finally to come for an interview.
speaker
And had my interview.
speaker
And thanked him for the trips.
speaker
And went back to Chicago and resume my work
speaker
and the day of the 71 earthquake
speaker
in L.A..
speaker
The Senate met at first press Hollywood.
speaker
And that evening I got a call from Sherman Skinner who said you know our Senate
speaker
on the meets twice a year.
speaker
So we took that action to invite you to come as
speaker
associate executive.
speaker
Did in your acceptance.
speaker
Then I said you know you must be out of your mind.
speaker
I am looking at the television and street
speaker
opening and the bridges are falling.
speaker
I am not coming.
speaker
Laughs. Laughs.
speaker
Well. That was.
speaker
In I guess February some.
speaker
And by the by June 0 assembly which
speaker
is meeting in Denver.
speaker
I had agreed to gather.
speaker
What changed your mind.
speaker
And God did. That's the only way I gonna answer it.
speaker
I talked to people.
speaker
In Chicago.
speaker
And they said you know we really don't want to lose you
speaker
but we don't want to stifle your growth.
speaker
And I thought I had a lot of growing to do where I was.
speaker
But they encouraged me to consider it and.
speaker
Their comment was that.
speaker
If I was able to do a part of what I had been able to do in Chicago.
speaker
Then there would be a blessing to the Senate.
speaker
And so I went to the General Assembly and came from the General Assembly
speaker
to L.A..
speaker
And as I stepped out of step
speaker
off the plane into the airport.
speaker
I was confronted by one of the major church pastors
speaker
of Southern California.
speaker
Regarding the grant to Angela Davis.
speaker
So that was my welcome to the Southern California.
speaker
It seemed to happen when you step.
speaker
And so I came and a
speaker
part of my task was having the press writers
speaker
who had restructuring.
speaker
Most of whom did not have executives and therefore were press retirees
speaker
in the greater L.A.
speaker
area did not have executives.
speaker
And to organize a departments and
speaker
get things going and now that I think back or if we did
speaker
we did a lot of stuff in a short period of time.
speaker
We even rented a plane to take people from the Senate
speaker
to evangelism alive or whatever it was called.
speaker
Then in 72 back in Ohio
speaker
and.
speaker
The Presbyterian is where
speaker
I regained function and
speaker
I had invited a part of my job skills to work
speaker
with the Black Advisory Committee as well.
speaker
And that became too much.
speaker
Very quickly. So I invited Charles Marx who was now in full
speaker
in Pittsburgh if he would consider coming.
speaker
He did and said you know we'll
speaker
make a good team together.
speaker
And he and his wife came up.
speaker
And he took over working with African-American
speaker
churches and something else he had in the Senate.
speaker
And during that period I was I was having fun.
speaker
I really was enjoying it.
speaker
I got a call one Sunday afternoon.
speaker
From a member at Westminster Church in Los Angeles
speaker
who was serving on the general assembly mission
speaker
council or the general counsel.
speaker
No he was on a jury. He was serving on the nominating committee.
speaker
And he was for the general assembly mission Council executive
speaker
director.
speaker
And he says listen I need your P.I..
speaker
I said I don't have one.
speaker
Well I need a resumé for what I have.
speaker
I've just got here I just got here a year or so ago
speaker
and he says well we need some African-American names
speaker
in this process and we want you
speaker
to put your name in.
speaker
So at least we can have that have to deal with interviewee or make
speaker
some decision. So I wrote a 1:00 in the afternoon.
speaker
He stopped by on the way to the airport where the meeting was completed.
speaker
And I said know I'm through with that.
speaker
He's got it. He's welcome to it.
speaker
And that process went on. And I.
speaker
He says Aren't you funny with this. I said Well you know I saw that.
speaker
He came through the mail and I threw it in the wastebasket because I did and you know
speaker
that was nowhere near what I had interest in.
speaker
And Sherman's gone over sharing was chairing that restructuring
speaker
committee.
speaker
And probably I get a call that says.
speaker
You know you're still in the Group of 20.
speaker
You're still in the group of 10.
speaker
And I said Well that's that's OK.
speaker
They said they need to have some black names in there and that's really how I felt about
speaker
it.
speaker
And then.
speaker
When they got down to the last call that says.
speaker
They have selected three.
speaker
And you're in that three.
speaker
Okay we'll play the game.
speaker
They'll have a black candidate to say that they had a you.
speaker
They had had two others in in that group.
speaker
And.
speaker
They had eliminated them.
speaker
And I was aware by then that they were looking for
speaker
someone who was not a part of the structure
speaker
of General Assembly. So those two I understood them being eliminated.
speaker
And I understood why I was still there.
speaker
I said OK you know I know this guy.
speaker
So I wrote this play it and see where it goes.
speaker
And I ended up going to Chicago for an interview.
speaker
That was my providential interview is interviews
speaker
were in Chicago. They had a a sophisticated
speaker
process. You were interviewed by three different teams.
speaker
And you got to the 13.
speaker
The convenor of that group Friday said you know
speaker
why do I get the feeling that you're not really serious about this.
speaker
I said because I think you were serious about this.
speaker
I said.
speaker
I graduated from seminary in 69.
speaker
And I and I'm separated.
speaker
I'm African-American and I don't believe you going to call me
speaker
to be the director of the Julius and emerging council.
speaker
I came as a courtesy.
speaker
And that was that was my response to them and I was you know I was dead honest
speaker
and serious about that.
speaker
And.
speaker
We took the plane and came back.
speaker
John John Greyson has had then a beautiful
speaker
baritone voice. And that's when they had the piano bars
speaker
on TV.
speaker
And so I played and he sang all the way through Chicago to to L.A..
speaker
And they gave us champagne vows a separate very.
speaker
Got through. Oh nice.
speaker
And so that I was there with that you know I've had the interview.
speaker
And then I got a call maybe two or three
speaker
weeks later.
speaker
And they said you have been exempt.
speaker
You've been voted as the candidate
speaker
for the position.
speaker
And my response was on what basis did you did you
speaker
would you make that decision.
speaker
And.
speaker
I had the flu.
speaker
And I tell him I really was not feeling up to an interview.
speaker
Well no but I was always glad to hear that so I went back to Chicago
speaker
with the flu and went through this.
speaker
It seemed like a lifetime interview was just about.
speaker
And I finally told him I
speaker
said you know I'm really tired.
speaker
And.
speaker
Telephone answering and more quest.
speaker
So you
speaker
don't do that with the other view you're really serious.
speaker
You know but I was I was feeling fairly well.
speaker
And so
speaker
I said you know that that takes care that you know you go
speaker
call home the.
speaker
Next thing I knew I was on my way to New
speaker
York as the first Executive
speaker
Director Jones animation council.
speaker
So as they're restructuring them you had to do as part of that job just
speaker
doing in the city. Yeah.
speaker
And essentially as I was doing this in Chicago Presbyterian
speaker
to when I was called a Chicago Presbyterian they
speaker
had just ceased to be Senate
speaker
Presbyterian ever related to board and national emissions.
speaker
So all of those major metropolitan cities were going through restructuring.
speaker
And of course the same with the Senate had
speaker
they just gone through that restructuring
speaker
and added for more Presbyterian.
speaker
And of course Joe was going through its restructuring.
speaker
And
speaker
so when I came to New York it was putting together a
speaker
structure for the council.
speaker
Moving the office of Minister of relations
speaker
from Columbus to New York the Board of
speaker
Education a board Christian education is still in doubt here to New York.
speaker
Doing away with Ma and moving that in to
speaker
what is now a national world mission.
speaker
And the hiring
speaker
staff the the executives for the three new agencies.
speaker
And.
speaker
Living through to some of this.
speaker
What was your relationship to the steady climb.
speaker
I say second like.
speaker
We were the positions were considered tier positions.
speaker
And that turned out to be a good experience.
speaker
People were concerned of how
speaker
that would work because that was not quite the same
speaker
relationship.
speaker
That the author Liz Taylor had when he was executive secretary
speaker
of the O General Council which was my predecessor
speaker
and.
speaker
Bill Thompson and I got along well
speaker
together. I had a great deal of respect for him.
speaker
And I think he grew to respect
speaker
the gifts that I brought.
speaker
And I did not try to come in with all of the answers
speaker
he used to tell me.
speaker
Because I couldn't. My approach was I don't know.
speaker
So give me a chance now. Find out you used to say you know
speaker
Tom you know you.
speaker
You tell him something is.
speaker
Will find out.
speaker
But we had we had a good one relationship.
speaker
Not back my administrative assistant became his administrator and when
speaker
I left.
speaker
And then as I said on the council I was in Tulsa I was the elected body.
speaker
Is that correct. The elected body.
speaker
Yeah. That was a general assembly mission council elected members.
speaker
Yes they were plus members of the.
speaker
Senate coordinating group which is still and still intact
speaker
in some form.
speaker
When I came on and of course the
speaker
authority shifted a bit after I resigned
speaker
so that the later some of the later executive
speaker
directors had more authority over
speaker
operating the agencies than I did initially.
speaker
The initial structure was that.
speaker
The agencies were related to the council.
speaker
I had a veto power in terms of the selection
speaker
of the executives to those positions but
speaker
they were not directly accountable to me.
speaker
They were accountable to their boards.
speaker
And one of my first confrontations.
speaker
Was with program leaders say.
speaker
The chair of the program Agency who had been involved with the board
speaker
of national mission so.
speaker
He had this image of how that function.
speaker
They instituted a safety this project.
speaker
And my.
speaker
On the news part one is that this new structure.
speaker
Was that the agencies would report through
speaker
the GMC.
speaker
How that works. The chair of that board says we don't report
speaker
through we reward to I says no.
speaker
You report through.
speaker
And he was determined. Not a reporter.
speaker
I had to kind of get a deep breath because he was he was a tall noted
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attorney.
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And I felt overwhelmed at first.
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And so I contacted him asked if he'd come to my room
speaker
at the hotel where word similar was maybe.
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Charged Bush. Now I think was his name.
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For that period to order so.
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Was like. Something along.
speaker
Oh. Yeah.
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And he came towering and.
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I. Said George I don't know how we're going to handle
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this except that if the program agency
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is going to report that report to.
speaker
The GMC.
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If you choose not to do that.
speaker
Then I will report to the assembly.
speaker
That to every elected not to report.
speaker
So now these are your options.
speaker
And of course he reported to the GMC but
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that was the kind of situation
speaker
that I encountered when I started with him see.
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It was dissolving staff that had been
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there for a long time.
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And I.
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Know they they wanted and I think I put it in a letter that I wrote
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that you might have. And then.
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Uh we drove a society.
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They won't stand by. We'll be working late tonight.
speaker
And they were not ready for collegial leadership.
speaker
And I know they are even.
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That was one of the problems with that.
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And I chose not to use another approach.
speaker
That I was called to try to do this completely.
speaker
And if that's not what they were ready for.
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Then that's not what I would do.
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I'm a group worker.
speaker
So. So eventually the system the system can't work.
speaker
Yeah. They were just not ready for what it is I'd go for.
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And.
speaker
As say that as I look at it even now.
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The former executive director of the truth of the
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mission especially image and agency.
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She took an action.
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That moved the move the FEMA.
speaker
From the intended role of the TMC.
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One of my questions as I look at their
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efforts at restructuring.
speaker
And I've asked this every sense FEMA
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became an agency.
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Who is playing the role of the GMC.
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We are limited by any early.
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Who is responsible for coordinating the work of the
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General Assembly.
speaker
Between meetings of the assembly which is what the General
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Council does at any council level.
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And they have not answered that yet.
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So you're still wondering about the church's structure.
speaker
We're still trying to figure the church's structure.
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And.
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We spent an awful lot of energy on that.
speaker
Have a lot of energy but you did.
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A.
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Big one a man after four years there leading
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leading you working your way up from Presbyterian to Synod to
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now isn't that a lot of moving and then those and then that mean that you had a short
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period of time.
speaker
So in 76 you 75 75 75.
speaker
You got a call to Congress Coleman is going to you.
speaker
That lasted one years. That's right.
speaker
Tell me about that guy. Well when I decided to resign.
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Which shocked a lot of people.
speaker
If you read the minutes of GMC at that time there was there was still
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some division on whether or not they ought to accept or reject
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it.
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But I got to go on whether or not they think you were leaving.
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Yes.
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That's NAMA is now where my heart was and if
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my heart is not there.
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I don't. Did you get the best from me.
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I lost my hard.
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Princeton offered me through Dr. McCord at that time.
speaker
No that's stage wrong.
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Princeton.
speaker
Decided that I was going to be.
speaker
A visiting professor there.
speaker
And when I heard about it I contacted
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Dr. McCarthy and said you know where did this come from.
speaker
He says well I will read you know what you were going to do and we wanted you to have
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something new. I said I really I really appreciate it.
speaker
The president is now where I want to go at all.
speaker
And I think that was a that was a shock for him.
speaker
Because Adler Hawkins had gone to Princeton and you know after he retired
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and.
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When I got this information
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about St. Paul's.
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I looked at it and I had remembered
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St. Paul's when I was here in 71.
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As a matter of fact I'm having lunch next week with the person who was pastor of St.
speaker
Paul's. When I was here in 71.
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My first thought was.
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It is. I don't wanna go back to California to California and it
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still is not my place in terms of where I want to be.
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But I came out and and met with the committee.
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I only looked at one.
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Church information for.
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St. Paul's.
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I met with him.
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And one of their questions of me was why would somebody with all of your
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experience. Want to come to to St. Paul's.
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And I said Well you know that's a very good question.
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I've asked the same thing.
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And I said apparently.
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This is where God.
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Wants me to be at this point.
speaker
And if it doesn't work we'll know it.
speaker
And they had been looking and turning down candidates
speaker
for over a year.
speaker
And I came back and priest said Westminster.
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Isn't back the chair of the Nominating Committee started growing a beard.
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He said you weren't going to save until they got past.
speaker
Had. I had a tease later because you grew to like it.
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And I ask you one time.
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Apparently you don't think you've got a past yet.
speaker
You still love your beard.
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Mm hmm.
speaker
But uh I uh.
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They met.
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And.
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I was so they had one vote.
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And it was unanimously to call me
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and uh.
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I said this is where and this is where I'm going.
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And I told them I told the Presbyterian that
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if we don't pull this off in five years then you can get to somebody else.
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And in three years we were naturally self
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supporting.
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And.
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The church grew to almost 200.
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And.
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So God bless the ministry there.
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So you found out for all those years to more administrative programmatic
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kind of work. You found you found a real business and that's
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where that's what God was preparing you for.
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And I really believe that that I told him I
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just a few days ago that I did what most
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clergy in the church do
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just the opposite. And I said I think probably God
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took me through that.
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So I'd be through with it. And then I
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could go where God intended for me to be without being concerned about oh
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I I need to see a value.
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I thought I went as high as I could go Oh and I will
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come back and work.
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And that's the way I have felt about this.
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It's been fun working.
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Not pleasant all the time.
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But I've been working with this that this
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congregation of St. Paul's and we work with congregations and I
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still do a lot of work with individual congregations
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with pastors.
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I moderated the session for the one
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African-American church in this Presbyterian for eleven months.
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And Ruth we closed it in October of last year.
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And.
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While it was a painful experience it was
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a good experience.
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And.
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It's amazing that the women still get together
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from that congregation. They're having a luncheon I think next.
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Next two weeks or so.
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And a new church is being developed
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in West Covina that has one of the thousand
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one new with new work to bring communities.
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With my by black pastors during that.
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So it has been a rich industry for me.
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What do you think you say. God was preparing you what are those those skills
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that you gained in all those years of working your brain
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brought to sell effectively to congregations and administrative
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skills.
speaker
The ability to work with a diverse group of people.
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Community skills.
speaker
I had to learn how to be a pastor.
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But I had all these other skills to go with it.
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And and that's not true.
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All together. My work at home church
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was almost like an associate pastor
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and cement bag I had selected
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a pastor in out in Chicago that I wanted to serve as
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associate pastor.
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And I didn't know that he knew that until I preached there was suddenly while I was with
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t GMC.
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And he announced that he says in the end does not know this donation
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did come into that bag the bread and values.
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But I I wish I had heard that he wanted to be associate
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here. Wouldn't that have been granted and it would've been.
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He was such a marvelous person.
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But.
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I brought my social work skills to him
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to the pastor at my community organization
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skills and I worked I chaired a three
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year organization in St. Paul's area that stopped the
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building of a skating rink in
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a couple of other things in the area.
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And so like unlike many pastors that
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I say I've worked with even today.
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Their administrative skills are is just terrible
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and they don't know how to organize and work with a session
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or other groups and their group dynamic
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skills leaves them frustrated.
speaker
And often they don't recognize that they are the problem.
speaker
So often the people who are the problem in this there are some
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problems. But you need skills to know how to work with them.
speaker
No they don't. Absolutely not.
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I remember at St. Paul's we had that she's still a member
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of St. Paul's.
speaker
Had I had a woman who was just.
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Just the unhappy spirit.
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And.
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She would get into screaming matches with the people.
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And.
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My first came Saint Paul was I had a board of trustees as well as a session and
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we finally worked through that and I got rid of the board trustees.
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But.
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She was meeting with the trustees by night.
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And she started one of her screaming matches with me.
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And the louder she became the softer I spoke.
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And she finally realized she was screaming.
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And.
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It enables the rest of the people at the table not
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to engage with. With that.
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And finally calm her down.
speaker
And of course it made it easy for me to say to the nominating committee
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she will not be a candidate.
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But I.
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Think my group work skills have been helpful.
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That is the process of group work has changed over
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the years. I came to it as a car.
speaker
That's true. But the approaches are
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different but the concept is the same.
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Yeah. Now listen to people.
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And.
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I don't have all the answers and I don't mind telling
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preachers that you don't have all the answers.
speaker
And if you're smart you'll find the gifts that are in
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the congregation.
speaker
That's that that's available to assist you and to assist the congregation
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in growing St. Paul's would not have grown as
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it did. If I had not been comfortable.
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With both encouraging and developing lay leadership.
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And.
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So that's.
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THAT'S WHY THANK GOD HE WAS equipping me
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to come to the parish.
speaker
You've been involved for a long time with the National Black Caucus.
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I have been involved with that the group since
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68 when they were reorganized.
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For about a year to.
speaker
The car caucus started back in that
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18 something but
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after I
speaker
can't think of the Supreme Court case now.
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In the 60s.
speaker
Something is Brown for Brown versus the
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Board of Education. Once that was done there was someone who tells you that
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you need a caucus again.
speaker
So they disbanded. They only lasted about two or three years.
speaker
So in 68 it was reorganized as black
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Presbyterian and united and I was at that meeting in
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Newark New Jersey when that was done.
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And then involved with the caucus.
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Every since I.
speaker
Served as treasurer for I think three or four different times
speaker
as vice president as director of Chapter regional
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development.
speaker
I guess as a parliament as a parliamentarian for the board.
speaker
I just find it total last year.
speaker
My term is up again.
speaker
And that at my age it was time for them to get them up
speaker
and I just got an e-mail a couple of days ago.
speaker
Would you agree to be on call.
speaker
With the board and some back and assembly.
speaker
Well I haven't responded yet but.
speaker
I still work with the local chapter.
speaker
I coordinate their membership program and.
speaker
Work with the.
speaker
Lillian McDonnell.
speaker
Academy for a ministry which is a training arm.
speaker
Her excellent training program for both clergy and
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lay persons.
speaker
Which we open up to churches and a Presbyterian Senate as
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well.
speaker
And that's just for. So for this the Senate in this area right.
speaker
So has that been a help for you.
speaker
You grew up in different kinds of communities
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as a child. But living in a.
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Oh a white a white neighborhood during the week and then with your mother on the weekend
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and the summers and in Texas which was the South.
speaker
And even though you lived in different communities you've worked in different communities
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you've had a very multicultural.
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Ministry.
speaker
And then broken through a lot of the barriers and then the Presbyterian Church.
speaker
At the same time of having to be the first.
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So many times the first time we hope to doing that
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fully.
speaker
Not always just. Know hopefully not always just been the first right off there.
speaker
Tell me you stop saying The first is just as everybody right has
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had that experience of having a national corpus of other
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other African-American leaders in the church helped
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helped you in your ministry.
speaker
Oh yes.
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That's an interesting question.
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When I feel like I really need to be centered.
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I know where to go.
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There are times I make a comment that I really need I really
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need to go that way. But.
speaker
With the Charlottesville.
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Issue.
speaker
I went to one of the churches here in San Diego Presbyterian.
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I told a friend you know the sermon was great.
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But it was as though Charlottesville.
speaker
Had never occurred and I don't know how you preach
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the Sunday after Charlottesville and not say something in the sermon
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other prayers.
speaker
So there are times when.
speaker
I need to be in the context
speaker
of people who understand what I'm feeling.
speaker
And.
speaker
So the caucus or the pastors who are part
speaker
of that have provided that patina over the years.
speaker
Even now the General Assembly.
speaker
The caucus. Never. Ed Hawkins told me.
speaker
Sharon adept at became executive director.
speaker
We were at a national caucus meeting.
speaker
And he called my room and he says when would you have breakfast with me
speaker
a message saying nobody cares.
speaker
And he says.
speaker
You know I would have breakfast with you.
speaker
But I know you're busy.
speaker
And you got a lot on your plate.
speaker
But you can not afford.
speaker
Not. You can't afford not to
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participate.
speaker
And work in the caucus.
speaker
They need you. You need them.
speaker
And that's. I made that commitment.
speaker
To him and I've done that ever since.
speaker
To participate in my installation at St. Paul's on.
speaker
Stay with me several times to come I have something else.
speaker
But.
speaker
As frustrating is that connection can be.
speaker
It is a centering.
speaker
Place.
speaker
The past black pastors were removed when the West Coast.
speaker
We'll be meeting in Palm Springs next
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month.
speaker
And.
speaker
I will probably go. Probably I would not be providing
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any planned leadership.
speaker
But just test to hear them.
speaker
Is encouraging and continues to help
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me to know how to plan and to
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assist them. In doing things they are meeting as a result of a.
speaker
Grant that I got three years ago to live in Baghdad.
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And General Assembly.
speaker
Poor African-American clergy on the West Coast.
speaker
And.
speaker
So I get a joy out of seeing them grow and
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to see them share their gifts with other pastors.
speaker
So that's.
speaker
So I must ask you one last question.
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I.
speaker
See you you've spent a good part of your life now in the Presbyterian church not in
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Presbyterian P.C. USA.
speaker
So if you look at us now on this yet again I mean we're always in times of change
speaker
aren't we. But what what what where do you feel hope for
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the church today and where do you.
speaker
Maybe feel concerned.
speaker
Well I think let me start with concerns first.
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Because.
speaker
I would like to see us.
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Move beyond our preoccupation with structure.
speaker
Because that is not the answer.
speaker
Leadership is the answer.
speaker
And.
speaker
I had some I sent me a copy of the
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position description for the new FEMA director.
speaker
And as I read it my first thought was no
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how do you shape a position description.
speaker
If you have no sense of what you're going
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to be doing and what you need to do and
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we've spent an awful lot of time again on
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structure I know there is a way for another vision.
speaker
But I am heard much innovation company I that I have
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seen the report yet so I don't want to be overly critical but
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I think a church of our size now.
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And the
speaker
societal conditions in which we're living.
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There is so much ministry that
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needs to be done.
speaker
That to spend thousands of dollars on a structure.
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Rather than ministry troubles me.
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Now having said that I think the I think our church.
speaker
And I was sharing this with the young man who I that I baptize 20
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some years ago at St. Paul's and his parents and he joined
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his parents for lunch with me.
speaker
Out here at their favorite restaurant last weekend.
speaker
But I was saying to him that.
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You know the Presbyterian Church provides.
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It provides.
speaker
A place where
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your gifts can be used.
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If you're willing to use them and your leadership.
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Has enough sense to allow you to use them.
speaker
But that at least there is.
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This structure that already exists provides for that
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freeing up people to use their gifts.
speaker
We were talking about the Calvin's sense of the priesthood
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of all believers.
speaker
And those that have really caught his attention.
speaker
I said you know you're as much of it not a prime minister as I am Jonathan.
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I might have a different style and different responsibilities.
speaker
But when you became a member of St. Paul's and he joined after I left.
speaker
You joined you. You join a team of people
speaker
who have been call to be in ministry and to use their gifts.
speaker
For the good of others.
speaker
And if we are if we.
speaker
Are too inward focused.
speaker
Then that means we are not doing what we need to do.
speaker
For the people.
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That are out side of our walls.
speaker
And that's not nothing new or profound.
speaker
It's it's what God's called us to do.
speaker
And so I'd like to see our churches.
speaker
Blossom as senators of service witness.
speaker
And let people see the Christ at work.
speaker
In our lives you know instead of always
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about what we say.
speaker
You know really prove it. Sometimes we do a
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lot of talk and a lot of rioting.
speaker
And.
speaker
It be good sometimes if people that seek God and work
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through us.
speaker
What do we do.
speaker
I grew up in Cody and with it with a song that.
speaker
I still use.
speaker
That I want the world to see Jesus and my life by the life that I live
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and the service. That idea of.
speaker
And often that comes back to me.
speaker
As I'm thinking about. The role of the church.
speaker
That we are servant people.
speaker
And I didn't. That's it.
speaker
It's time to preach.
speaker
But uh. I just uh.
speaker
I think that's critical for our future.
speaker
Structure.
speaker
Ought to be the result of what we have committed ourselves to
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do.
speaker
And there is a marvelous little statement in.
speaker
It used to be set aside in administration and the Book of Order.
speaker
But it's in another section now.
speaker
But it says that administration.
speaker
Is shaped by your mission.
speaker
And I'll say that this session in particular we don't read the Academy's
speaker
day workshop next month on.
speaker
New ways of organizing.
speaker
The work of the session.
speaker
We get so caught up with eight with eight committees.
speaker
Seven of which are doing nothing.
speaker
And I keep asking you know how do you know what committee.
speaker
You need. If you don't know what you want to do.
speaker
And to that that question is not a
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serious question for so many of our sessions and our pastors
speaker
as they work with sessions.
speaker
How do you. Help a congregation.
speaker
To know its community.
speaker
And sometimes it's more difficult when you're commuting in as a lot of our congregations
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do.
speaker
But then that means you need to find a way of touching base
speaker
with that community. If you're going to dare to come in their
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space.
speaker
You ought to respect them enough to find out who they are and what they need.
speaker
And you don't have to do everything. Hey.
speaker
Find something that you can do well.
speaker
And let that be the ministry as
speaker
that is as that need occurs and is resolved
speaker
or someone else picks it up.
speaker
But that's that's kind of my feeling about the too.
speaker
I think we have the ability and.
speaker
To do just marvelous things.
speaker
If we do.
speaker
You're.
speaker
Right.
speaker
So do you have any anything else you want to share before we turn the tape up.
speaker
Yeah I'm still busy.
speaker
Chairing the board of trustees here at Manchester Grove.
speaker
Holmes.
speaker
As you've seen probably from something you've stolen.
speaker
A lot of things I've done.
speaker
Can't do all those anymore but I do still do a lot of it.
speaker
Chairing the board of trustees is it's been a fun experience.
speaker
It's a lot of work.
speaker
And again I am the first to it's the first time a resident has ever
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been the president of the board.
speaker
And I think it's the first time African American has been no.
speaker
Nobody says that but nobody can tell me you know about a good American that's not
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it. There's not been that many on the board.
speaker
And I work with the new theological seminary which has
speaker
some exciting possibilities.
speaker
Still work with the caucus.
speaker
I'll only be a minute.
speaker
I.
speaker
Still work with the Senate.
speaker
In the.
speaker
Racial ethnic scholarship program.
speaker
I used to staff that and I gave it up a year ago.
speaker
And there is a new.
speaker
Coordinator but I am serving as a kind
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of transitional advisor for her.
speaker
As she takes it on.
speaker
So I hope to let that go in the next few months.
speaker
But and still do workshops.
speaker
Opposite true church leadership training.
speaker
Yes. You don't it.
speaker
Yeah. If we can make this about a six or seven hour interview at least if I
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asked you about all the things you've been involved in in your life.
speaker
Oh Lord listen I go there's so much I thought but I've had
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fun doing it now. I was looking.
speaker
At some of the things I've done.
speaker
It surprises me when I look at it.
speaker
And I have been.
speaker
Most of it has been a blessing.
speaker
In terms of learning and being able to contribute.
speaker
I would have probably never served on the National Council of Churches
speaker
or.
speaker
Some of the other.
speaker
Ecumenical groups that have a part of.
speaker
Had I not been with the GM.
speaker
And. So you know I've been in places that are open
speaker
other opportunities for me.
speaker
And I still meet people.
speaker
Who who served on the.
speaker
National Council of Churches and the World Alliance of Reformed Churches.
speaker
And so was I. Were you serving on those boards while you were exactly executive director
speaker
right. Mm hmm.
speaker
And I served on the.
speaker
Committee that finalize a new brief statement of faith.
speaker
Which was a wonderful experience.
speaker
And it's kind of good to go through.
speaker
That confession and see.
speaker
Several words that that if you put it.
speaker
That's what I mean.
speaker
And the nine years I served only do seven years from
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the Judicial Commission.
speaker
That was a rich experience.
speaker
And the only supposed serve five.
speaker
Five or six as halfway there. But.
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I got caught in.
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Structural transitions again.
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When I went on I was.
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Completing the term of the person from
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Southern California.
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And then I was elected to a full term.
speaker
And then when the church restructured that and they
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went to biannual assemblies.
speaker
In order to put the officers in line.
speaker
They decided to.
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Extend the time for the moderator and vice Moderator
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The T.J.
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See that's why I got caught and that is up at 9 0
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0 0.
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You see the Saudis want a result that
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is the beginning of the tenth year but that was
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which time.
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Had been used as president as press room moderator.
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Yeah. I served on three similar
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boards.
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Wow. The Senate can't get new seminary and San Francisco
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I No it's for McCormack George C.
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Smith.
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San Francisco.
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And now the new seminary.
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Wow that's a lot of seminary boards.
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It is.
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And talk politics. Twenty one years.
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That I enjoy.
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I tell Politics and Reform.
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Where should.
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I stop teaching reform worship before the
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seminary closed to here because they.
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Went to the two week classes.
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And I just felt I couldn't do an adequate job.
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In two weeks.
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So. I told them this is a good time to pass them that.
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But I did do the quality and I and I enjoyed it.
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Still enjoy doing it.
speaker
K I can't think of anything else to add to this.
speaker
Been wonderful. Thank you. Thank you.
speaker
I'm glad it's over.
speaker
Now I can drag my.

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Title: Leon Fanniel interviewed by Beth Shalom Hessel, 2017.
Description: Leon Fanniel, Presbyterian musician, administrator, and minister, was born in 1930 in Kansas City, Mo., and graduated from Huston-Tillotson College (Austin, Tex.), George Williams College (Chicago, Ill.), and McCormick Theological Seminary. He was ordained by the Presbytery of Chicago in 1969. Fanniel was executive of the Synod of Southern California and Hawaii in 1971-1972, and became the first executive director of the General Assembly Mission Council, serving from 1972 to 1975. Fanniel served as pastor of St. Paul's Presbyterian Church (Los Angeles, Calif.) from 1975 to 1996. He died December 20, 2018 in Pasadena, California.
Creator: Fanniel, Leon, 1930-2018. (interviewee)
Hessel, Beth Shalom. (interviewer)
Date: 2017
August 28, 2017
Type of resource: sound recording-nonmusical
Genre: oral histories
interviews
Form: born digital
Extent: 1 WAV file, 1.6 GB
Subject names: National Black Presbyterian Caucus.
Topics: African American Presbyterians.
Geographic subjects: United States--California--Pasadena
Rights status: IN COPYRIGHT - NON-COMMERCIAL USE PERMITTED; http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/
Physical location: ARCHIVES 17-0902; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA
Related item: Presbyterian Historical Society oral histories, 2017.--http://prestohost68.inmagic.com/Presto/content/Detail.aspx?ctID=Y2RiNWNk...
Identifier (local): 17-0902_fanniel_02
PID (Persistent Identifier): islandora:149653

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Leon Fanniel interviewed by Beth Shalom Hessel, 2017.

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