This is Elizabeth Wittrig interviewing David Smith

on April 2nd, 2019.

So David do you want to go ahead and start with your experiences growing

up. If you could first say when and where you were born.

Yes I was born in Hickory North Carolina Regional Hospital

in 1992. July 9, 1992.

And I grew up in a large extended family

in Hickory and spent a lot of the time in Hickory.

Then moved up to West Jefferson and enjoyed

an active you know early family life.

So should I share about some of the specific

experiences?

Yeah like what were some of your religious experiences growing up?

Yeah sure. It's interesting growing up I had pretty much all of my life gone to private

Christian schools. But I didn't really go to church that often.

So my family was not actually that active in a church there.

We had been active early on in.

My family's church going back generations Dudley Shoals Baptist

Church which was a Southern Baptist Church in a small rural area

and we went there until I was about six sort of sporadically

and then my mother actually got a divorce.

So my mother and father divorced.

And since then I haven't really seen my my father.

But as part of that transition for her

she found that the church was not exactly the most welcoming place for her.

It was a church that still believed that divorce was a sin and that

if you were divorced you couldn't be in full communion with the church any

longer. And so they never specifically asked her

to leave. I don't believe that she'd ever told me if they did.

I can remember I was there for a vacation bible school or whatever

they call it something like that when I was 6 or 7 years old

and I saw one of the parents

pull their children out of a class setting, a group setting

with me and they said that I could hear them talking in the background

and saying that they didn't want the influence of that family on their child.

And she told my mother that she should be ashamed of herself for getting a divorce.

And you know that she couldn't see how she would deem to raise her children and

that. That kind of an environment.

All of this of course pays no attention to the fact that my mother was

in an abusive relationship. And you know I've always looked upon her

as someone with just a remarkable courage and strength

to power through all of that and then get us all out of it safely.

Nevertheless that was not the response of the church.

So in many ways that's one of the first experiences I had of

the church in its broader sense, not yet in the Presbyterian world, but

definitely part of the Christian communion.

But the beautiful thing is that that experience is paralleled by

yet another experience that came shortly after.

So still within the Southern Baptist community and my grandmother's church,

Road Baptist Church, was pastored by a guy named Doug St.

John.

And he found out what had transpired mainly probably

because my grandmother angrily told him.

If we spend much time on

my story my grandmother will certainly come into play throughout

the story. I suspect that she angrily told him and told him to do something about

it.

Nonetheless he felt that regardless of whether his beliefs were the same

or not as the other congregation that he was called to

to show people compassion and love and to welcome everybody into the Communion no matter

what. And so he called my mom and

offered words of pastoral support. I don't know what they talked about but we

ended up coming to the church the next Sunday and he invited me to read

Psalm 139 and I ended up, because

I'm a perfectionist, memorizing it before the service and

sharing that with the congregation. And of course we all know the important

tagline.

That proof text perhaps in that passage being

that you know we are fearfully and wonderfully

made.

And I just remember you know you have these two contrasting experiences.

The church that emphasizes doctrine to the point

of harming the people that they are tasked with caring

for and then you have on the other hand a community of faith that's equally committed

to their belief structures but is more interested in exercising compassion

and grace and mercy than the letter of the law.

And that's an experience that frankly has framed everything.

I can count, or I guess I can't count, how many

times throughout my life he church has really

screwed up and then right behind them the church comes

along and saves the day.

So sometimes I feel I have felt like Jeremiah.

You know not that I compare myself to Jeremiah but Jeremiah the the

prophet the weeping weeping prophet who you know

almost always has a bone to pick with God.

You are like a brook like waters that fail.

You know he gets pretty testy largely because he feels like God makes promises

and then pulls the rug out from under him or he feels like he has to deal with the

difficult cohort that on one hand affirms that they

are the faithful community and then on the other hand pretty

much fails to live that out fairly universally.

So yeah that's certainly my earliest experiences of church.

And needless to say we ended up staying connected to that

to my grandmother's church Road Baptist for a while but then we moved to West

Jefferson which is a small town in the mountains of North Carolina.

We actually were even on the outskirts of that town which was on the outskirts of a lot

of us.

So we were we were living pretty rural.

And there was another Baptist church that was actually on my family's property

which we didn't know this. It actually took a while for the people

to come and survey and figure it out so we were sort of expected to

attend.

We found pretty good news.

It is a little tiny Baptist Church with 20 or 30 folks.

I honestly don't even remember the name of it it's still up there but

a little tiny brick Baptist Church that you

know it was an independent church. No connections to a broader denomination but

you know they had a service every week. I don't think they had a pastor for most of the

time so they kind of just invited the Deacon to get up and

preach. And so I don't really remember much about the church

but what I can remember was the freedom that was present in the worship.

I mean they just all got together and hung out.

They were all friends. They all lived close to each other.

It felt like a family chapel more than anything else.

And we went there for a while and then ended up moving after about four

years back to Hickory.

And then it started at Christian Family Academy which was a

Christian school in the area not specifically tied to a denominational

tradition but certainly leaning towards sort of

a PC(USA) expression of the reform tradition and

certainly grounded in a fundamentalist expression of

what reform theology would be.

And so I took part in all the activities you would

at school and I very quickly learned by about my sophomore year that to

be cool and popular in a Christian school one had

to go to church. One had to be able to talk about like church experiences

which I realize how corny that sounds.

But if I'm being honest the reason why I started really wanting to go to church

was so that I could up my popularity game, so that I could like have something to talk about from the weekend.

I thought about different churches and I was like well we've been going periodically to

this Baptist church why not go there.

I ended up getting connected with the youth group which

was sort of fledgling back into existence after a break.

And there were times when I don't think I quite

understood what was going on between the two traditions so you have this sort of

radically 19th century sort of expression of the reformed

tradition alongside a heavily pious tradition.

You know you and Jesus you got to get saved kind of a tradition

and I don't know if I had worked all that out.

But nevertheless I found my home there and was baptized when I was 14 upon

profession of faith as all Baptists would.

And that was really the beginning of everything.

What led to your decision to get baptized?

Yes so.

It's interesting I had.

It really.

I had to in the moment name a specific experience.

But the truth is my journey toward greater

acceptance of my faith and the profession of my faith was a lifelong

process.

I mean I could have thought even in those days I could have thought back to that Sunday

when I was asked to read you know we are fearfully and wonderfully made.

I could have thought back to people gathering around in a circle and singing old shape

note tunes in that little Baptist church.

I could think of my mother's divorce and wandering

in the wilderness. So backing up, the house we lived in West Jefferson

was on 56 acres.

Just open land and so I could think of hiking the mountain that was behind

our house with my brother and just sitting and being in nature, exploring

and riding horses and four wheelers.

And somehow God seemed to be present in all of that through all that

journey. And Bible classes were required

at my school and so translating back

into the time when I was at the Baptist church

became engrossed in the study of the subject.

Right I was, I've always been, a bit of a nerd and enjoyed

reading and enjoyed academic work.

So I sort of dove headlong into the Bible discussion mainly

not again not necessarily because I really love Jesus.

I mean I could I would have said that I'm sure.

But really because it just became interesting as a literary document.

But very quickly the Bible itself became more than that for

me. Very quickly I realized that while

there was a heck of a lot in it that I did not understand, and

obviously still don't, to use the

old phrase it contained all that was necessary for salvation.

There I just found myself unable to read it

without being moved, without being led to consider meaning

its meaning and its significance for my life.

And I think that's really when the transformation started taking place.

When I realized that Scripture itself was more than just

a book but something that was relevant to who I am and who I was becoming.

And that led me to ask some bold questions of my teachers who

I think most of them were cool with at least the first five questions.

I would push them a little bit.

I had several Bible teachers who all sort of taught

the class. Corey Creath, Mr. Price as we always

called him. Mr. Price was always, he was also the government economics teacher so he was

a retired sergeant major and ran his class that way.

Which was super cool.

I'm not going to pretend like I was always the most attentive or the best student but

it was it was cool. But they really took the time to hear my questions and invest

in me and so I ended up getting

connected with Ligonier Ministries which is

R.C. Sproul recently passed away but it was the ministry that he and others founded

essentially to share the the

work in the tradition of the more conservative expressions of the reformed

tradition. I went to a couple conferences and just felt

myself remarkably intellectually stimulated

and at the same time spiritually enriched by those events.

And so that's really all the background that led to me saying well

maybe there's something to this and maybe I'm ready to actually make a commitment.

Again using the language of the tradition at that time.

So I told my pastor.

My pastor at that time it was not Doug St. John, he had moved on, but another

pastor and he was actually kind of hesitant because I think all the PCA stuff concerned

him and understandably I think from his

perspective it was also a bit challenging because I was seeing these

two worlds collide.

Because one thing we can say for sure about our siblings in more conservative

reformed traditions is that they do have answers.

Now we can ask what the if those answers are correct

or not but they certainly have them.

And they certainly thought through them.

And that was always attractive to me and that was not necessarily

part of the tradition I was in. And so I would ask my

pastor questions and he wouldn't be able to answer them.

So I was very hesitant for a while but eventually I finally decided at age 14 that

this was the community that I was a part of.

I was going to embrace it. I was going to embrace my grandmother really wanted me to be

part of that church. And so I went for it.

I'm sure they're very, you've already touched on this, I'm sure it's very similar reasons

why after high school you decided to attend Montreat College?

I did yes. So it's interesting, in

high school the baptism piece was almost the beginning.

Right after I got baptized I went on my first international

mission trip. And then I went on a couple more and ended up going on several

throughout the rest of my high school career.

And was really shaped by those cross cultural experiences and encounters.

And I ended up coming back about a year later.

So my senior I guess it's a year and a half later so about to start my senior

year.

And realizing that while I loved all of the people

at Road Baptist it was really there was a community around the church that was struggling

and that could really use support and there was not an openness to extending

that welcome.

And though I wouldn't have understood all the theological language behind that at the

time, I realized that I had to go

somewhere else and it was it was hard.

And sometimes I still go back to that church, most recently for my

Grandmother's funeral. And I love the people there, but it was gut wrenching, but it was

a change that needed to be made. And so I ended up joining a

nondenominational church with roots in the Methodist tradition.

New Vision.

It was called no, well, they've changed the name now.

It's Discovery Christian Fellowship now is the name of the church.

So Discovery Christian Fellowship Church and through

that I started teaching while I was a senior the fifth and sixth grade

connection group that they had. Like a little Sunday School and just continued to be

engaged in this. Not only in Scripture but in the broader theological

world of the Christian tradition.

And I realized pretty quickly at the beginning of my senior year that

I needed to dive into this, study

more seriously.

And at least that's what I told everybody else.

And it was true. It genuinely was true, but that was definitely the narrative I'd

constructed and Montreat was really the best place to

do that because it had a Biblical Studies program instead of just

the general religions program.

What was going on behind the scenes that I wasn't of course sharing was that there

was a deeper impetus behind my desire to study scripture than just that

I found it interesting.

I desperately wanted to know if God could use

and could love a person like me.

I had realized very early on that I would never

have used the word gay to describe who I was.

Because in my school gay was you know the

gay agenda was used alongside discussions about terrorism.

And not that they were even condemning individual people.

But it was it was clear that being gay was put on the same level as being a terrorist

and so being gay was never something I could be.

It was never something I would have even cognitively allowed myself to acknowledge

as being true to who I was.

But yes being gay was never something I could be.

But the truth was it was always something I would never do again.

And so I found myself being torn between the

relationships that had developed underground underground and deeply

committed friendships and relationships

that had emerged in high school.

And I was just completely unable to bridge the world that

I was experiencing there and in my life

as a Christian. And so the truth is I really went to Montreat

College yes to study scripture, but to study scripture so

that I could find out if God could love and use a person like.

I think I read somewhere I think it was in one of your papers

that you prepared maybe for ordination where you talked about how you said

some folks studied theology because it's interesting, but you did it as an act of

survival.

In many ways that's true.

I know there were moments along that journey when I

just had to ask myself what was the point in going on.

Thankfully unlike many of my LGBT siblings I never

attempted suicide. But there were often days when it felt

like the best option.

And I did not come out in high school obviously as we

said. But I knew people who did.

Not at my school because that would have been torture.

But I can remember when a friend of mine did come out at another school someone said, we

were talking about well what if a gay person came to this school, and the Bible professor

said well I don't know why any of them would ever want to come here.

So it was everybody was assumed in that space to be heterosexual.

And so. And that included me.

Right?

And yet I was having these real life experiences, these real life feelings

that I was just not even allowed to think about having.

And I had to ask myself, Why in the world would God create those

feelings? Why in the world would God allow me to have those feelings that I could not

control? While at the same time, at least as I understood at the

time, telling me that I wasn't allowed to.

Like what in the hell kind of sense does that make?

So yeah that in many ways going to study theology

then and probably now to a certain extent is an act of survival.

You know I do find theology interesting on a nerdy level but

truth is everything

that I do whether it's as a pastor or someone writing theologically

it's always the goal is always to make sure that other folks

don't have to live in that terrible tension.

Between who they are and who God has them called to be.

What was the atmosphere like at Montreat College?

Especially policies

around LGBTQ individuals?

Yeah so in a word

terrible.

I will say it's worse now.

And and that breaks my heart.

I'm afraid that partly in reaction to my

story and others that the college has gone as far

to the right as it can go and has made its condemnation

of LGBT people even more explicit.

But when I came to Montreat there was almost a Don't

Ask Don't Tell policy. Of course there were gay students, there were out

gay students, they just weren't out to the administration.

They may have been out to one or two professors and then to a group of friends.

And so again we're moving into this first year and I had made this commitment

to myself like I'm going to leave behind my gay ways.

I'm going to pray this all the way and I'm going to live into whatever I thought

I ought to be living into. And so for really my first well

it truthfully lasted the first semester but for my first year

at least I was presenting this you know young upstart conservative

straight white guy.

And honestly not because I was getting any suggestions

or affirmations from people on the faculty or staff at Montreat but simply

because they were good teachers and were inviting me to

reflect on my faith and my own theological worldview it

started becoming untenable to to uphold that law.

I realized that you know I started to realize that maybe

these two worlds that I had been living in, these two separate lives that I had been

living didn't have to be so separate after all that.

Maybe part of my calling as a

person of Christ is to be an openly gay person and to actually

take on that label that had always been this distant

reality to me. And this became acute over the summer between

my freshman and sophomore years when I actually met

the person who would become my partner for a long time.

And you know fell in college love.

And you know of course you have high school relationships, you

have early college relationships but they never really materialized.

But this one finally became something that made me recognize that

it wasn't something I could just move beyond.

That this was something real.

And that forced me to ask simple questions about who I was

and what part of myself was I sharing with the world.

And I eventually found the courage to come

out and thankfully there was a supportive community around

me at that time that I had sort of gotten connected to.

We called it the book club.

But it was really like all the gay students got together at Denny's at night.

That's a great book club.

We never read a book at all.

I think I brought a book the first time and they were like what are you doing?

And though

it was certainly underground I managed to find a supportive community.

At this time I had also just began worshipping at Montreat Presbyterian

Church, the continuing PC(USA) congregation and I would

be in and out of that worship space for the first little bit.

But truthfully the first time I walked into the door I knew that it was the place

to which God was calling me.

So the first time I came I think

that I went with my friend best friend William Wilson.

He kind of made me come. We went to a Good Friday service in the Montreat barn

and we walked into I don't know if you've ever been to the Montreat barn, but we walk

into the barn and it's sort of this old rickety space.

It's cold in there. There are candles in the center.

People are singing an old shape note tune, kind of recalling back to those old days

in the little church in the mountains.

And Maggie, the pastor at the time, gets up and preaches a sermon.

And it was just a beautiful moment where I didn't even know what any

of these folks believe. They were all in their 60s or 70s but they were just

remarkably welcoming and kind.

And after the service William joked with Maggie as

we were talking, Maggie the pastor, he's like he had just

become Presbyterian he was like yeah I've seen the light I've finally become

Presbyterian. And Maggie says one of many lights.

And that was actually again just a comment that I think most of us would be used to

hearing in the Presbyterian church.

But that was the first time I had ever heard someone who had just so

convincingly proclaimed a message of love and of peace and redemption

in Jesus name and then simultaneously was able to hold her own self loosely

and to recognize that look you know there are many lights

out there, all of which point back to the light we see in Christ.

And I knew that was the place.

I didn't understand and still don't but I knew that it was

a communion. A communion where that kind of conversation was possible was a communion

that I could feel at home despite

all the challenges that are still present.

And so yeah as I was slowly making

my way toward coming out more fully at Montreat the

feathers were starting to get ruffled in the broader administration.

At that time I was a research assistant and tutor

in the college and so I was in the Bible and Religion department no less.

And so the truth is my job and ability to be at college

was on the line. At this time I had not yet come out to my parents.

But as more and more people started finding out, my

partner at the time was on the soccer team.

So as people on the soccer team found out that really became an issue for him.

I can remember very early on the chaplain pulling

me into his office one day or I'm sure it was him inviting me, it felt

like being pulled them because I sure as hell did not want to go.

And he starts out asking me all these questions like you know

why do you think you're gay? Who has led you to think these

things? And then he pulls out a notepad and starts asking

me who I have been with.

Which I mean I was like I guess 19 or 20 at that time I didn't like know

all of these questions or what was happening and of course I'm thankful I had the

wherewithal to stop them from

that interrogation.

Because he basically then suggested that

they needed to find a way of preventing these corrupting influences and were

basically I mean there was the beginnings of a witch hunt.

And he had called he called me back into his office another time

and asked me the same questions. Several

weeks later it was said that they had these folks on

tap already to come but I'm not quite convinced of that, they brought in several

ex-gay speakers.

And these, one of them in particular who

fancied himself a prophet worked

with a group of LGBT students that he had sort of cornered and

many of them I think were truly as torn up as I had been and were really

searching for whatever answers he was providing.

And my partner at the time was one of them.

And this ex-gay guy took them up into his

place where they had him staying and like took their phones away and wouldn't let them be

in contact with anybody.

And you know this went on for like a day or so.

A day and a half or so and I was kind of concerned and other friends like other people

who were aware of the common denominator that united all of the people

in that little group also got really concerned.

And we basically started searching for them.

And all the while I did not know the administration fully knew what was happening.

They later denied that they understood all this was happening.

But I'm quite convinced that at least the chaplain did.

And so we eventually were able to find them.

I actually because I had a good relationship with the two police officers in Montreat I

actually went and found them and asked them to go find people.

And of course it was a religious thing so they could not directly intervene but they at

least found them. And a group

of us that night, so this would have been the second night of this whole ordeal, many

people from across the theological spectrum 90 percent of whom probably

would not say that I should be able to be ordained or that I should be able to be married

but nonetheless could not abide what was happening

in that moment, gathered together there were probably anywhere between

50-60 of us who gathered in Gaither Chapel unofficially and prayed together while

this atrocious thing was going on upstairs in one of the

music rooms.

And we couldn't do anything about it but we prayed nonetheless.

And the next day after everything sort of calmed down and the

guy left the prophet self-styled prophet

left the folks of course were still in a mess.

But those of us who had gathered there walked together

the next morning to the Dean of Students office.

And I shared with him what had happened.

And I never know I don't know exactly what he did but he did respond in

kind and checked in with all the students.

And I later found out he's no longer in that position so I won't get him in

trouble by saying this but he was a secret ally in many ways

within the administration. So he was remarkably kind

and heard us out and worked to try and remedy the situation.

And my partner again at the time eventually came through eventually managed

to navigate all of those things.

But for months he was traumatized

by that experience.

Amidst all of that Montreat Presbyterian Church come back and comes

back into the picture. Maggie who I had shared about was an alum of Montreat College.

And I spoke with her on the phone about all that was happening and

oh I've never heard a pastor, except for myself maybe, say so many curse words.

And I loved every one of them every one of them was like the word of God

because it was that righteous anger that I that I couldn't fully

access but she could on my behalf.

And again I don't know all that happened behind the scenes but Montreat Pres mobilized

to wrap themselves around the students, the LGBTQ students at

Montreat College. Again most of this was going on behind the scenes.

But I saw the church live out its mission in a

risky profound, authentic, genuine way that

I only pray I'll get to see him more often in my journey through ministry.

I mean I think of folks like Jack Sadler who gave me my charge

at my ordination who had been the pastor

of First Pres in Richmond and had helped them navigate you know almost

30 years of their life together and had taken his own journey

on working toward a more inclusive church.

But I just remember him saying you know we're with you.

We've got your back. You can be mad as hell right now but we're not we're

not going to abandon you. And that has been true ever since.

And that's the kind of church that I believe we can be, that I believe we're called to

be. And that I hope I'm glad that I get to be a part of.

So amidst all that I honestly don't remember fully fully the timeline but sometime

in there I had become a member of Montreat Pres like you know you might as well

buy right into it.

And they continued to be a support network for me.

Shortly after all of this I went home

for spring break. I had been scheduled to go on a mission trip.

Ishmael my partner at the time was also going.

And they ended up saying that we could not go on the trip.

The college said we could not go on the trip because of our homosexual

proclivities in their words.

Because I suppose we couldn't represent the college even though I had been representing

the college for quite some time.

And so I ended up just going home for spring break and over spring break I told

my mother. I came out to my mother as gay and said you know

this this guy I'm really close to is not just a friend.

And while I love my mother deeply and while we have mended

our relationship and are still mended our relationship and have come a long way that

was probably one of the hardest days.

All the other stuff was just people being whatever but this was your mother

right. And she was not hateful

but she felt that she had failed because that's the narrative that parents often

receive coming from a fundamentalist tradition.

That if your children are gay you failed in their parenting.

And so she spent hours angrily

crying, racking her brain as to what she had done and it became

very clear and she eventually told me as the evening

went on but it became very clear that I would not be able to stay there

that night. And so I ended

up going back to a friend's house and

spending some time there. I slept in my car a little bit here and there

but didn't necessarily have a place to go.

Then I was able to go back to college and so I had leased a place for several

months, but financially the support would no longer going to be coming from the family so

that summer I had to find out means of at least for about a month.

Staying around until my family finally let me come back home.

It was not an easy time.

But managed to come through.

Were you able to rely on anyone at like Montreat Presbyterian Church during that time?

Many of them yeah.

I wouldn't be around if it wasn't for those people.

And were you out ot those people?

I was. Montreat Pres was so it's interesting I missed this part

as I'm just telling it stream of conscience.

The first, so I had obviously come out to

my partner right you don't really need to say much there.

But the first person to whom I ever said the words

I am gay and I think I actually came out as bi first.

But she broke that down pretty quickly like in the same conversation.

Was Maggie.

At the church. And I don't think everyone in the church knew.

I mean they do now because I've preached a sermon on it but many

did and all were supportive.

What was Maggie's response?

I think I was so emotionally in the moment I don't know if I.

So I guess I said first well you know Maggie I think I'm bi.

She was like OK well God loves you and nothing's

ever going to change that.

And she's like and David why do you think you're bi?

She's like, do you ever like women at all?

I'm like No.

I mean I have friends.

She said almost exactly that, she's like you keep your options open, but

you know no matter how you identify you're welcome here and God loves you.

And that was all I needed to hear.

And I'm sure there was a lot more to it.

But again

she in particular, I probably would not be around if it was not for her.

So then was it a kind of in the midst of all this that you first started considering

becoming a pastor?

So just like being a Christian,

my call into ordained ministry is equally impossible

to pin down.

When I ask when people ask me when was the first time I felt called to serve the church

as a pastor I go back to reading Psalms 139.

And then I can go to my first mission trip.

Then I can go to the date of my baptism. Then I can go

on and on and on.

The truth is life must be lived forward but it can only be understood backwards

as you would say.

Looking back on my life I think everything in my life was pointing me toward this

goal. But it became acute when I came

to Montreat College and went to the church.

When I was joining the church was right when 10-A was coming through.

Just even the discussion around ordination itself and whether or not someone

like me could be ordaine pushed me toward a realization

that actually God was shaping me for that world and for that role

in the life of the church.

And I again I don't think I would have fully understood that at the time maybe

I still don't fully understand where God is calling me to be and

what God is calling me to do, but certainly it was around

that discussion of 10-A whether or not someone like me could be ordained that I started

really thinking about it carefully.

In the Baptist tradition ordination is just different.

Right. So.

Many of my friends were licensed at 14-15 years old.

The idea of going to school to be a pastor never clicked.

So I certainly I don't think I had a sense that oh I'm going to school

to become a minister. I certainly and it was

really not until I became part of the Presbyterian Church that I even understood that

that was a path.

But just everything in my life seemed to be pointing in that direction.

And that's.

It became very clear once I went as a YAD to the General Assembly in 2014.

I had already applied to Princeton Seminary, but again still not sure if ordination was

the track. But after so I had had the small taste of the Presbyterian

World in Montreat and really what I have come to know is the

Presbyterian Church at its best right at least in my experience at Montreat Church.

But as I sort of got to see the broader church

for the first time I spent weeks with the Presbytery studying and

preparing to go on the road and be a YAD at the General

Assembly. I was introduced to this broader communion.

Communion that I had never experienced and didn't even know existed until

I was nominated to be part of it.

And I knew then that this was what I wanted to give my whole life to

and that come what may this was a communion that was worth sticking

by regardless of how they voted on marriage which was up

in 2014. Regardless of how they voted on different issues.

This was where God had called me to stay.

And that as this community had walked with me through the microcosm of

Montreat Church, I would walk with them.

That's powerful. How did it feel then in 2014 that marriage was passed?

It was such a surreal moment. I was in the hall right.

Of course we had I had just done an advisory vote as a YAD.

You know you push your little button which is no easy thing because no one knows how to use the clickers for some reason.

You're the first person to tell me that.

Oh

it's always crazy. There were jokes about pulling out a memory graft machine because no

one could figure out how to do it.

The YADS like became tech support. So we had all done our voting and I

had actually been asked I had been nominated to be on the YAD council

which basically helps to formulate events throughout the time at GA for

the ads. And so I was tasked with preaching that evening and

I had of course as you do when you're at the General Assembly you kind of find out about

things like that the day before.

So I was like writing my sermon. So I pushed the button and then I go back to typing.

I did not even like know that it had passed until everybody jumps up

and starts singing and clapping or in celebration.

And again the clapping was subdued because Heith the moderator, also

a profound influence on my my life, you

know asked us to be respectful so that everybody in the communion felt safe in the space.

So I wasn't even aware until the person beside me who was also

a delegate from North Carolina and was from a more conservative congregation

but it was nonetheless extremely excited for for what had

just taken place like grabbed my shoulder and he's like don't you what's happening.

And I'm like what? She's like it passed! And I just it just erupted.

I mean. It was beautiful.

And I I don't know that I can fully describe what I was

feeling because it was a feeling that I haven't felt since or before.

The truth is marriage is not the end all and be all of LGBT inclusion in the

church. But I had I had spoken briefly to the

floor of General Assembly.

And one thing I learned from my training to be a delegate was you really get one or two

times that people are actually going to pay attention to you so be brief, be witty, be

seated kind of deal. And so I had just asked the assembly you

know at that time I was thinking I would be married fairly soon and I want my pastor

Maggie again to be able to perform the ceremony and that's not a possibility

here.

Which was what I had said to the assembly. And of course then it was very clear now that

it would be.

And just to know that

the community that had welcomed me in the way that Montreat Presbyterian Church had now

had removed what was really the final official barrier.

Again not the final barrier but the final official one to my full inclusion

and it was an indescribable feeling.

And I believe it was either that day or the next day that I was asked to co-lead

one of the prayers at the assembly.

I don't even remember what I prayed about. I'm sure it's somewhere.

But I got up in front of this group and kind of looked out and

I was like you know in a way that I have never

experienced with another group of people before these folks even the

conservative face that I could see sort of coming out from the lights that had said some

very terrible things just a little bit before were part of my family.

And that this is a communion that I belong to.

I thankfully finished my sermon very quickly after that so.

If

you want to talk a little bit about how you eventually made your way

to being a canidate for ordination in the Presbytery of Western North Carolina?

Sure. Yes so that was all part of the journey at Montreat.

So over over the summer between when I had come

out, that would have been sophomore year and junior year, I had actually

worshipped at New Vision Presbyterian church where

they called it New Vision Church which is a multicultural congregation in Conover

because I had gone home for the summer.

Or at least to my hometown for the summer and eventually to home as well.

And that was the place where I had chosen to start worshipping and that was actually

where I joined first. So I joined Montreat as an affiliate

and then as quickly as possible yet being there for

six months so as quickly as possible so around Christmas began the inquiry

process again treating it truly as an inquiry not really certain

where I was being called but certainly feeling a call a sense of a call that was emerging

to ordained ministry and so that happened while I was in Montreat.

I had also. The book club that I had talked about had developed

into the Montreat College Presbyterian Student Fellowship.

Like two of us were Presbyterian. But it was a way

that we could be a recognised faith group and to secretly be an LGBT group to be honest.

And so as part of that I had been asked by the Presbytery

to, mainly Bobby White the General Presbytery, to basically

represent Montreat College unofficially because I wasn't a member of

presbytery so unofficially at the presbytery's campus mission committee.

And so I had already started getting more involved with the life

of the presbytery and I can remember my first

examination.

People had I think false falsely told me that we would be sitting around a room

like this one. Maybe without a table like a nice circle and everybody would say

together and we'd have a great time.

It was not that way.

It was a big board room and then a

table like an examination table and chairs sat before this big group

of people in a huge shape with their name tags.

You know it felt like I was on trial and of course it wasn't too

horrifying because I knew three fourths of the people in that committee.

But it was also really difficult.

The meeting went very well until I don't

even know how my sexual orientation got brought up.

Oh I know exactly how it was. So essentially.

They were looking at my initial statement of faith about

wanting to be an Inquirer and one of the people in the committee started

asking me questions about my understanding of salvation.

And this person on the committee actually knew a friend of

mine who had just come out as gay and she was an ordained minister

but a very conservative ordained minister and she believed

that he was possessed by a demon and that was what was making him gay.

And so all that's in the background of this and

she. Apparently I had off the cuff in response to one of the questions said

that God has worked salvation into the life of the church

and it's the Salvation that is for for all.

And I didn't qualify that enough.

To say that salvation was for all upon their

acceptance of it.

And I won't qualify it like that.

I guess I could you know if people want to strip my ordination for that that's fine.

I'll die on that hill. I just

wouldn't qualify it. And so she

continued sort of grilling me on this this question and I ended

up saying you know the truth is yeah I mean all of us are

deserving of God's wrath and punishment.

That's pretty basic Christian stuff or at least reform stuff.

But there's that beautiful line in the creed that he descended into hell and rose again

on the third day. We don't have to descend into hell.

He already has on our behalf.

Thanks be to God Amen.

And that that answer didn't really satisfy.

And led her to I don't exactly

know how she got here but to basically say me with

my agend that I was dragging them, and

I remember this line particularly, that I was dragging the name of her

Christ through the dirt with my gay agenda.

And that this inability to answer this question in any convincing way

was just a result of that broader gay agenda.

And the committee despite obviously ultimately affirming

my sense of call didn't really respond to any of that.

That was kind of just allowed to transpire. And

I did respond to to what she had said and tried to be very gracious and I was

pissed off I'm not going to lie.

So I responded and she was like I can just see it in your eyes you hate me.

And I said No I don't I'm I'm just really sorry that

you see what I'm saying as you know a desire

to be welcoming of everyone to be exclusionary of you because

that's not what I'm what I'm going for.

And then in classic Presbyterian fashion the meeting very rapidly adjourned

and I got sent to the other room for them to deliberate.

And I remember talking to one of the people who I had just met that day

and they were like how'd it go and I was afraid to scare them like well

it was interesting.

And so we went back into that into the meeting space and they said we're delighted,

the committee has voted you know and

the end result is that we will affirm your sense of call.

You know there was there were hugs and affirmation and

I don't know what possessed me to do it but I went over to the woman who had been

very upset and just offered her a hand to shake

and I said you know I'm I'm just really sorry for how that that all happened and I hope

I hope that we'll be able to to have future conversations in the future and

that this won't be the end.

And it's interesting two people on that committee were representative

of First Pres in Lenore which we all know is where the Laymen

have very strong connections or had.

And again they probably weren't fully onboard

with this whole ordained thing.

But their response was to say that it is clear that

you have a sense of call and we're not going to deny that.

And so that's led me over and over again to the conviction that

I cannot be someone who is hateful toward people who are different than me.

My life experience just won't allow that to be possible.

Because again for every time the church has messed up it has also been

right there to try and pick up the pieces and it hasn't followed any sort of boundaries

between conservative or liberal.

It has always been people who sense God's sense of call in

my life and in the life of this little community, the LGBT community

and who at least in the moment when the time comes to make the choice make the choice

to affirm and to see God's presence in all of God's children.

I was going to ask about your actual ordination service you actually wrote a hymn that was sung at that?

I did.

I'm not a big hymn writer.

I mean I play piano and organ and guitar so I do enjoy

music. I'm certainly not a poet

and I make no claims to be but I actually wrote that hymn not

specifically for the ordination, but while I was at

Bryn Mawr so I had already started working at the church before

I was ordained.

And I wrote the hymn in response to a representative

from Fellowship of Christian Athletes who came to my office

to meet with me.

And she was she was extremely kind and we were talking about the possibility of doing

some sort of youth ministry. And you know just exploring possibilities.

And I never even spoke about myself being gay because obviously that

does not need to come into every conversation.

But I shared, I just straight up asked her because I know

the complexities of the FCA world, I said you know we have students

from all kinds of backgrounds, from all different families, different kinds

of families and we want to make sure that everybody's welcome.

And she didn't quite understand what I was saying so I made it explicit you know

we welcome LGBTQ people without qualification or exception here.

And that would be part of whatever work we did.

It wouldn't have to be part of yours but if you're doing it with us this is a

dynamic in our community that we want you to know.

And she again was not angry but was just confused

by the possibility that a church could live in such

a way. Because to her the Bible was clear.

And I left that meeting just thinking why in the world am I still having this

conversation. And not angry again.

I mean we left on good terms and everything.

But why was it so hard for this person who had been raised up

in the same faith that I had to glimpse

that God might actually have

dreams for LGBT people as well.

And that we could be considered whole and fully part of the

community without having to be fixed first.

And so that's where that hymn came from.

Just a reflection on that experience.

And I honestly think it's those.

It's really not the super traumatic experiences I've recounted

that were were the hardest because again for

all of the terribleness of those experiences there was always God's

presence screaming just as loudly as anybody else

from the other side and from within me saying you are my child.

I love you period.

It's those little moments the little slights that aren't even meant to be slights.

The little microaggressions that aren't even meant to be micro aggressions.

That can eat away at you if you're not careful.

Did you ever at any point seriously consider leaving the church? Or even leaving the Presbyterian denomination?

Yeah like every third week.

I'm not going to lie. I mean there are times when that would certainly be easier to

go in a different direction.

But I think that's where calling comes in.

If it was all just about hanging out with people you enjoy and doing things you like to

do you wouldn't have to feel a sense of call to do it.

Yeah I mean and I certainly have not borne

the brunt of the church's journey in the

way that a lot of my forebears and a lot of my contemporaneous

LGBT siblings have.

There are many journeys out there that are far far more fraught with difficulty.

But I keep going back to, I get asked this often, why in the world are you still part of

not just the Presbyterian church but the church right.

And it's not exactly the most popular thing in the LGBT community to be like I'm a

pastor.

But the truth is the answer always goes back to Jesus.

You know. I think.

Back to a time in college when I had

finally managed to get an apartment that was this terrible two bedroom, roach

infested place.

I was living with a partner at the time.

No furniture. We had like an air mattress and a twin

mattress like stuck together to make our bed and then they grabbed

one chair and some lawn chairs.

Yeah it was it was pretty rough.

And so we were trying to make ends meet.

I was still going to school full time and working three part time jobs

at the same time.

He was working.

And so I had to take we only have one car so I took him to work one morning and was

driving driving back probably 5:30 or maybe 6.

And a car comes across the median

hits the side of my car and actually knocks me down

a cliff and there was a covert sticking out.

And thankfully it was behind me and not at my face.

That wouldn't have been great but it actually kept the car from flipping and crushing

me.

And so you know it was probably, probably happened in a

split second. But I remember as the car was spinning and I don't know if you've ever been