William B. Miller interviewed by R. Douglas Brackenridge and Fred Heuser, 1991, tape 4, side 1.

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    This Friday night team 1981
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    Douglas Brecken reads continuing interviews withMr.
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    William B.
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    MILLER This is Tape 4 Side one
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    we had talked we have finished the last tape you talked about the Journal
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    and some of the publications of the society
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    but there were few more things you wanted to mention about the publications series.
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    So why don't we pick that up at this point.
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    I wanted to clarify something I said in the first tape I think I mentioned that the first volume
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    of the Presbyterian Historical Society
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    with the volume just the church by Webster
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    and actually it isn't with the Presbyterian enterprise by Armstrong
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    Fletcher and Anderson which was published the year before I came
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    and really was published as a source document it's still
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    current source material
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    but it was meant sort of as an individual publication
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    and not as a series.
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    And when James Nichols came in nineteen
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    nineteen sixty sixty one he became
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    secretary of the society and Fessor
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    Princeton Theological Seminary.
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    He became a member of the publication committee of course in his role as secretary.
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    The publication committee at that time had some strong
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    people on it.
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    In addition to two Niccolò lecture
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    Maurice Armstrong and several others that there were
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    church historians and then there was this publication committee
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    was the only committee that actually met
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    with the prior to the meeting of the board of directors.
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    There were no other committees.
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    The committee made a plan to select certain items that they felt
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    should be should be published down the rain down
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    the long run by the society.
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    A study in the blacks study studied
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    Presbyterian related colleges study of the women's
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    role in the Presbyterian Church bibliographies
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    of some of the important sources that the
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    society had and did they get assigned to
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    what this committee believed were song topics to people to write
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    on those particular areas.
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    In 1966 that publication called Presbyterian
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    negro was published by society.
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    This was written by Andrew Murray.
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    If I think it was the
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    first denominational study in black
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    black studies and sort of I look at it
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    as pioneering this was the time of the civil rights were very active
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    he came out for this
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    with this publication which is still very solid
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    work in history
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    and certainly at the time was very current.
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    My job in the publication series I studied all the publications
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    meetings and took part in its deliberations of that committee
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    and my job was to after the
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    manuscripts were completed
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    and receive the society
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    and approved by the committee was to try to get them published.
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    If you look at the extensive list of the publications series there were
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    about 26 27 publications
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    from the period nineteen sixty to eighty two
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    and that twenty year period.
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    It's a very diverse list.
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    There are some some bibliographies
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    there are some excellent studies on
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    different boards of church studies on
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    excellent women's study women's role
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    in the church.
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    There are there are other books that
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    that just actually were received by the society
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    and the society felt that the society through its
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    publication committee felt that these should be published.
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    My job as I mentioned was to get these published
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    and I made a number of contacts
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    with religious secular
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    and university presses to get these people the society had no funds
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    to a publication and many books were published
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    with no fee on the part
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    of the society. Some books published society would guarantee a certain
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    fee for X number of copies of tempted to sell them to
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    recoup losses.
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    In my judgment this is one of the
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    great contributions to the society in making these publications
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    setting up this series and getting these books published.
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    I feel that were it not for the initiative of the publication committee
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    and the society.
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    A great number of these books would not have published
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    comes to mind.
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    Two books relating to oral interviews the book by
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    Breckinridge or Eugene Blake of
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    was written by John Coventry's Smith
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    who as a result of interviews carried to let.
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    These are these are good solid studies that
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    were really well written particularly for bond.
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    Blake would play a major role in
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    New York Presbyterian Church Menocal movement as a whole
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    would not have come to fruition without this series.
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    Same way about the Presbyterian women's
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    studies by Brackenridge
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    and Boyd which which again
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    sort of. I bet it is one of the pioneers just as the
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    Mary book was the civil rights movement
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    with Breckinridge point book two women's
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    studies and very significant dominant role that
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    women play in church.
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    So I did indicate
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    pleased with the development of the publication series.
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    I know that there are there are those who feel that
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    money is spent and the publications series could be put on film
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    and manuscripts could be put on film
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    and distributed accordingly.
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    I don't think they would have had the wide range of
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    appeal that the
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    these were there just points that I wanted to keep your comment about
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    during the latter part of your administration the racism Greenwood
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    press might be able to dig how that
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    how that came about.
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    I mentioned earlier that I would make contact
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    with university and religious presses to get these published early
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    in the 60s. I contacted the Westminster Press
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    which published an arm of the United Church Church
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    mentioned about the
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    thoughts of the publication committee in developing this series
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    and this was our hope that
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    with the Westminster Press published this year
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    the press would not commit themselves
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    to looking back on it understandably commit themselves to books.
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    They hadn't really seen or really viewed it.
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    They did offer it to two
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    look at each manuscript as it was presented
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    and as it passed the publication committee to see if it would if it
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    could be published.
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    Several of the early ones the Book of Presbyterian
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    to New York State by Robert Nichols
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    and later one by
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    Smith forget the exact name Bedel Smith.
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    They were the minister. Yes Presbyterian ministry of culture.
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    They they published.
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    We found out very early that
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    we could make that I could make better arrangements
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    with some university presses
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    and get shall we say a response.
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    And at a cheaper cost than
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    the books such as the journals of Charles
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    babe by high class
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    University this was published by Penn State Press.
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    Pittsburgh University of Pittsburgh Press published published some other
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    books. Trinity published books.
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    This was our source for university
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    presses in in the
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    early 80s I believe maybe two
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    or three.
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    We made arrangements
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    with Greenwood press in which we
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    while it was written out it was felt at the time of
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    a very good contract in which Greenwood would agree to publish
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    any book that went through the publication series.
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    They would have first first crack at it
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    and in fact unlike the Westminster Press they were eager to publish
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    the they had seen some of the works they had.
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    And I think they were impressed with the caliber of
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    writing that was coming out from the publications committee
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    and the society.
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    One difficulty with Greenwood press was the cost of their
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    books for the consumer. With extremely high that the
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    first curtailed the number of people who read the book.
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    While this contract was written
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    and spelled out there were several books in the series.
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    I had a good relations with with the religious editor of The
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    Free Press Henry Balbus.
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    I don't know if he's actually the religious editor
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    but whether he had that title in any books relating to American
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    religion in America went through went through her
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    and there were a couple of books on the series that
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    that I said we would like to get these published independent.
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    I think John Smith was one.
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    He said we wanted to be John Smith wanted
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    Geneva press which is an arm of the
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    wanted to do that Henry was very liberal this was all
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    cleared in writing it wasn't any verbal thing
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    but it started out as a verbal
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    so that if it worked out it worked
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    out well and indeed the book like
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    The Greenwood is very interested in publishing bibliography
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    like or to looking at the last
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    list of the first twenty eight 29 publications
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    like the last three where were published by agreeing
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    with the United Synnot at the South
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    and Fred User's Guide to foreign missionary
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    correspondence in this society and
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    and Benedetta as a manuscript collection of the Presbyterian Church
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    well at least where well especially the latter the manuscript the Benedetta
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    work was published in 1990 it was actually arrangements were formed
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    prior to that time when I was here as director.
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    I feel that these three books to kick out for a
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    great book especially the guides
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    and bibliography deserve to
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    be in print and I'm not sure we would have had a
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    printer who would have been able to underwrite the cost of printing something
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    like
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    want to go back to the
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    women study Presbyterian women in America
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    by Boyd and Brackenridge.
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    That arrangement was sort of the beginning of a new arrangement
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    in which this book was published originally in hardback.
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    I believe that initial boss thirty five thirty five dollars
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    in that area. That Greenwoods said that they would.
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    We would give them an order before the press.
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    They would put it in paperback for six dollars a pop
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    with the understanding we wouldn't nationally advertise
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    to compete with with we.
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    But I think our initial order was five hundred top
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    which is three thousand dollars which to the society of the
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    Publications Committee.
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    That obligation didn't have that kind of a budget was a large thing.
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    We went out of our limb on that and we sold them almost as quickly
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    as they came out. My mistake was that of five hundred it should
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    have been fifteen or two thousand.
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    But then after that initial quarter
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    we we couldn't get any more because they were take press
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    but the said that this enabled us to to
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    put the book in a paperback copy of the society sold er
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    ten and we made four dollars.
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    We were trying to it to make our money we just wanted to recoup our cost which
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    we did so that it was sort of a
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    seat of the pants operation I'd say the publication committee to getting published because
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    you look at it.
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    There are funds in the Historical Society that it generates
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    relating to publications they primarily relate to the general
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    public sphere. So I get back to my original premise that I'm
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    very pleased that these came out of the publication committee.
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    Think the great variety of titles.
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    But with almost all of them somebody looking at that mess really the society
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    did not as it were paid for publication costs they
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    they you either got somebody to do it
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    or you had an arrangement whereby you paid for so many books.
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    In other words there was some effort to recoup some some money it wasn't
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    the case that we did the society the Department of History
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    had had funds. That was that safety.
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    That's ticker and the people by and large who did the research were not paid people were
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    there were no author no no.
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    Author receive any any that I can recall
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    or any publication in addition to society
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    buying committing itself to a certain number of books.
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    We went out to try to get money to
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    choose should we say subsidize a Hoosier Zionistic good
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    Kaysen point.
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    This was published by Yale University Press.
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    Good study by Rudolf Presbyterian
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    and we got to think a thousand
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    or fifteen hundred dollars from a local stop man in
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    Philadelphia who gave us this money for the good of the
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    patient.
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    Try and think of other stuff.
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    Marjorie Barnhart manuscript on
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    forget actually the name of it
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    but we got money.
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    That book went to the publication series
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    and I think to her family we got money for the publication
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    of should be pointed out to that this
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    book of minutes of the Presbyterian Church of 1760 1788
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    which was headed by Platt Plett had been working
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    on this number years
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    and when he retired in 62 he
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    and his wife spent at least the next
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    10 12 years.
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    I mean every day that I mean sort of working
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    and refining the manuscript checking guy was a very thorough scholar.
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    Check out the actual manuscripts against what
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    he and his wife printed so
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    that with the publication of that book we can go 17 16 1991
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    and have a complete written copy of the
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    minutes of but this is something that
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    the publication of this makeup Bill Thompson to
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    to do this in connection with the bicentennial.
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    But as I mentioned earlier about the issue of the Journal of Presbyterian
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    history the dual issue of the documentary an interpretive issue
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    with another contribution made today to the bicentennial
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    which wouldn't have been made without
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    Bill Thompson's support.
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    There were cases where the Society published several
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    publications of its own tenure.
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    Didley Agostina Presbyterian History was published on
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    that copy
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    published by by the society.
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    I'm not sure where the funding for that
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    but there were two and another was published by
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    Bristol Tennessee that
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    I forget the name of it at any rate that was
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    published by the life and writings of Francis Mackenzie is published
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    by so that
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    I just wanted to mention this sort of history of how the book that
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    I listened to.
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    I hadn't really thought about that. It seems to me that that in a way that this series
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    is not only scholarship it is also a service
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    to the church in the sense that it seems to me particularly many
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    of the latter.
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    Were books that were seen to have relevant issues.
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    Blacks Hispanics and women that were that
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    had scholarly focus but also had were seen
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    as being things that would have relevance to the to the church.
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    Not that it wasn't that any part in the decision of
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    what were commissioned to be to be done
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    and to be published. Was that not part of that.
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    Certainly the base certainly was part of the motivation.
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    Several manuscripts in the series were totally unsolicited.
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    They were sent in and there's this society felt should be published
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    in the society tried to get its imprint on such books.
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    Thompson's tourists to the South as
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    in other manuscripts were
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    just were sent in individually.
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    As I say went through that publication committee
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    and back to revision and funds
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    been getting published. In the end they were they weren't
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    all of the studies weren't for this series by no means were
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    initiated by publication back.
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    I think it's interesting that there was one title in 1967 for
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    a book on Presbyterian related colleges.
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    After 22 years there's still not been publication
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    and it's my understanding that the gentleman who is writing
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    this book is still working.
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    It's a long range is that it.
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    It was good. I remember there were some voters
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    standing orders that people want some colleges
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    and university and it comes from the Publications Committee
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    to get married I suppose to be interesting also for someone to know what
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    manuscripts were rejected and there were numbers oh the great Yakir
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    by bar great great number of men
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    and some of these would have a story in themselves.
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    One particular manuscript that
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    I know that the publication committee said back in back
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    a number of times and finally got an author to work
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    with or a writer to work
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    with the author put together.
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    And as far as you know.
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    I haven't been any major changes in this process.
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    Still as you have explained it is pretty much what society
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    is doing.
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    Are you aware of what it is.
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    It's my understanding it's it's pretty much the same bars that
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    the book publications are concerned.
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    The committee is the
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    is seeking softness seeking expertise on what studies really
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    need to be undertaken
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    so I did my understanding today.
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    It's pretty much the.
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    They have certain criteria for
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    them. Just send the manuscript in they want special
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    special way that readers know.
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    One person decided any one book were
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    these three people.
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    But there's no way that they don't read this worth the list of manuscripts.
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    Do they have you don't advertise. No.
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    No they did not. It's primary people either seeing the books
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    or seeing the journal or simply making contact.
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    Yes well in ways the publication committee solicited
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    manuscripts they solicit the manuscript they
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    solicit and just kept on women
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    in terms of people just having a man already written.
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    How do they know that this is available.
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    They simply either they would receive.
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    I've received many letters people who have
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    manuscripts that the committee at different times work different ways.
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    One they said that they wanted me to screen them
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    and if they were if I had any doubt to bring the publication committee at
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    one time they said they are just you know the committee
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    wouldn't want to just send them back.
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    But mostly the committee read every read every
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    one thing that I sure that I was
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    proud that I would be able to do was to make personal
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    contact with the Board of Pensions foundation other
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    boards and agencies of the church to get their history.
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    RIP
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    Board of Pensions particularly was very enthusiastic to have their history
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    Britain an excellent
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    history of that board which is well accepted by
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    might that this was funded
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    the research in the book was funded by the board.
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    They made long range plans to have this publication.
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    The same was true in foundation
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    during church history is under way.
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    And I would hope that that all of the boards
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    and agencies eventually have their history written by
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    competent for this era initiative.
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    Really though you get to get these projects go to that.
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    That is true. Like
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    with art right.
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    Several times on this that
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    in connection with the foundation my initial talks
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    with the foundation.
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    They said they had one someone in mind to do the foundation
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    pretty well and I certainly say his name
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    but but. But I could write a manuscript
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    and I urged them without naming
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    an individual. That it should be written by someone who wasn't directly
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    involved with the foundation it should be written by
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    historian or recognized historian.
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    And this was done.
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    They finally I'd say it was done.
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    They finally came over to our position
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    and recommendations were made to the foundation
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    for them to be selected.
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    Brackenridge to do just this cutting to other studies
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    come to mind. One study on the
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    board of foreign missions.
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    Right at the 1970 72 period
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    was written by by
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    by a member of the board.
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    This was the manuscript was completed
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    and in reading it it was really
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    basically nothing wrong
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    with the board. They were very laudatory writing the manuscript of personalities
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    who were then on the board to
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    approve approved by those members
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    to be published. They wanted the society imprint
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    and the society wisely did not endorse
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    the book and was published on it.
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    So another case was the history of
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    the Presbyterian ministers bond which is which is a book
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    that I think we we certainly lost the support of the author
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    when this was turned down by the publication committee bitted
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    it's a good book for the layman to say to get an understanding
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    of the day that I remember that absolutely no
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    Taishan a good bit of editorial
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    so that said that while the society was anxious to
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    add to its list of publication I might add that the latter two books that I mentioned could have been done
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    at no cost to get to this fine
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    but the society really I
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    felt conscientiously tried to add books that
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    would really stand the test of time.
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    There are some one here Pikesville Scotts Breit desk Mohanna.
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    Looking back on it probably shouldn't feel this was the publications
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    series was just getting under way.
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    I was just to get books in
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    at the University of Pittsburgh Press that they would pay for
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    the higher cost of the.
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    They did this seems something too good to turn down
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    and so that I think there are books in there that if we had it to do over there
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    they would be taken out.
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    I think by and large the book if you're a
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    good country confirmed for
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    historians looking at the work of the society that there
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    is a sense into it with your explanation that there is a sense of
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    calculation in the publication of these books particularly the ones that were that
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    were initiated by the society you know it might be helpful at some point
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    for you to to indicate which of these
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    were generated by the side. The ending in terms of signing
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    topic and those that were received because I think some of them might look at that list
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    and not know that might think that this might interpret it the wrong way.
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    I think it would be helpful to say these volumes were either
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    or were not generated. These me without
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    making them good or bad just simply saying.
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    You can with show something different then it would show the ones that were coming out of the side
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    yet they were were ones that were more what I would
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    say relevant to the issues where the others were good books
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    but were just simply books that had been generated elsewhere
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    and unsolicited and I could be.
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    That would be helpful maybe at some point doesn't it have had that not not here
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    but haven't because.
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    And then some were some were both some were solicited
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    and manuscript came in on that subject.
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    There were people wouldn't know that it is true
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    and it is true.
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    OK is there anything else about that.
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    No I just said it's interesting.
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    And I think that it's this series like its journal is really
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    only written record just like the minutes of the General Assembly.
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    And I think what we talked about the other day in a sense you have the same issue that we talked
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    about in the journal. There is scholarship versus popular.
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    And what that balance is and how you maintain something that
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    is considered to be scholarly
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    and yet something that would be used for the same time yet the same seems
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    to be some something at the same time.
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    The problem is you do with Germany where you draw that line.
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    This publication series's for all
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    printed readable form the society has
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    also a microfilming project
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    that it has microfilmed
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    records and studies on
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    Presbyterian subjects that are available also for research.
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    This is an excellent series
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    and so is
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    done under the initiative under the direction of George.
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    This is you might say a supplement.
  • speaker
    I think Jerry you might feel that times that many of these
  • speaker
    ought to be in that series.
  • speaker
    And when you weigh when you weigh the cost of the case like this
  • speaker
    over the cost to get it right so that I like
  • speaker
    to feel that they complement not one
  • speaker
    they didn't.
  • speaker
    And they really sort of let him go.
  • speaker
    This occurred to me no comment is that not too
  • speaker
    many years ago the publication committee came up
  • speaker
    with a statement on sexist language.
  • speaker
    Yes you care.
  • speaker
    Historically know the interesting about that is why
  • speaker
    that why that was done
  • speaker
    with that man.
  • speaker
    That was the done at the trend
  • speaker
    of the times. I mean number one manuscript that
  • speaker
    came in and eventually was published was
  • speaker
    very sexist and it was turned down for that
  • speaker
    I'm not sure I could comment.
  • speaker
    I just think that historically that interest that that hit
  • speaker
    me you know was concerned about that.
  • speaker
    I mean I think I was involved in I don't remember exactly the origins of this.
  • speaker
    Just like the the the book of Mary's book
  • speaker
    Presbyterian Negro that were published today that were Negro.
  • speaker
    This was the word time.
  • speaker
    And even with the Today I don't think it
  • speaker
    would be black it would be American.
  • speaker
    So the afternoon meal
  • speaker
    or a Native American and not native american not Indian.
  • speaker
    So that I think that I think the title at least
  • speaker
    that particular sexist reflect the
  • speaker
    general curator of the
  • speaker
    that we've been talking in the past about the journal
  • speaker
    about the publication series.
  • speaker
    Let's shift now to the work of the historical society itself.
  • speaker
    When I first came to Philadelphia I know I was
  • speaker
    confused. What did the Department of History compare to the
  • speaker
    Presbyterian Historical Society.
  • speaker
    Could you perhaps start by explaining the difference
  • speaker
    between the two. Then we can talk about what the society itself has done
  • speaker
    and how it has been changing over the years.
  • speaker
    The Department of History as we talked about earlier
  • speaker
    is staying indefinite department of the
  • speaker
    Office of the General Assembly. It's under the direction of the of the state the clerk of the
  • speaker
    General Assembly as other departments such as the
  • speaker
    Department of Administration
  • speaker
    or the Treasurer
  • speaker
    with the department. These were distinct department
  • speaker
    under that under the state act clerk because it is under the
  • speaker
    jurisdiction of the state clerk.
  • speaker
    It receives its finances has received its finances from the
  • speaker
    general assembly. Per capita budget
  • speaker
    the per capita budget is its
  • speaker
    budget. We know that it's determined each year by the by
  • speaker
    the General Assembly and the Department of History would submit
  • speaker
    its budget to the office of the state clerk
  • speaker
    and then the total package of the state declared them would be
  • speaker
    submitted to the General Assembly.
  • speaker
    The Department of History throughout
  • speaker
    its throughout its history
  • speaker
    and its beginnings in 1920s
  • speaker
    has been been funded by the state
  • speaker
    and clerk in terms of personnel staff salaries
  • speaker
    building light he said
  • speaker
    and unlike
  • speaker
    the Presbyterian Historical Society has received all of its all of its
  • speaker
    funds from the budget of the Office of the general system.
  • speaker
    Because it has control because the General Assembly
  • speaker
    has control the purse strings of the Department of History.
  • speaker
    That's where
  • speaker
    most of the thrust of
  • speaker
    the efforts of the department have been understandably to
  • speaker
    and responsible to the state declared the Presbyterian
  • speaker
    Historical Society on the other hand which was founded in 1852.
  • speaker
    It was incorporated in 1856 1858
  • speaker
    and that the statute of the Commonwealth Pennsylvania
  • speaker
    and indeed it remained incorporated until the structural design
  • speaker
    mission in nineteen eighty three.
  • speaker
    The Department of History has the excuse me the Presbyterian
  • speaker
    historical society has always been a voluntary organization.
  • speaker
    Its members were selected
  • speaker
    by the within the society itself members
  • speaker
    of its board were selected.
  • speaker
    By the society itself their names were submitted to the General Assembly
  • speaker
    for approval. And. Where.
  • speaker
    I knew of no incidents when it will simply overturn the society
  • speaker
    recommendation or for substituted a name for
  • speaker
    another name as has been done
  • speaker
    with other boards and agencies.
  • speaker
    Chert the Presbyterian Historical Society
  • speaker
    main funding
  • speaker
    through the years or for any one of its main function.
  • speaker
    The funding has been through its revenues generated through endowments
  • speaker
    gifts made to the Presbyterian Historical Society go to the
  • speaker
    Presbyterian Turkish society budget
  • speaker
    in addition society also has
  • speaker
    obtained funding to various programs that it has
  • speaker
    initiated such as its
  • speaker
    microfilming operation. Funds were received from not going
  • speaker
    to go into the budget.
  • speaker
    Different gifts
  • speaker
    think we've mentioned in the journal receipts
  • speaker
    subscriptions to the Journal Presbyterian Visby.
  • speaker
    These grew into the Presbyterian historical society budget
  • speaker
    the budget of the historical society
  • speaker
    since my term of office somewhere in my term of office
  • speaker
    was submitted to the general assembly for for approval.
  • speaker
    The General Assembly never changed the dollar.
  • speaker
    I do not think that prior to the time
  • speaker
    I was in the budget were
  • speaker
    submitted to the General Assembly.
  • speaker
    Society like I could be wrong on that point.
  • speaker
    I think it's good to have a budget submitted to the Assembly
  • speaker
    and I think that any kind of expenditures of any kind for the department
  • speaker
    or society should be open
  • speaker
    and anyone should see the
  • speaker
    society as we mentioned before.
  • speaker
    Heta assistant secretary secretary.
  • speaker
    It also had an addition to the election of a president a treasure of the society
  • speaker
    a man named WilliamM. with was treasurer
  • speaker
    and a member of the board for some 27 consecutive years.
  • speaker
    He was an officer of the bank and handle.
  • speaker
    A good bit of the investments of the society on some
  • speaker
    when he retired. It was recommended
  • speaker
    that the secretary treasurer beat this be combined under
  • speaker
    one office sectary Treasurer.
  • speaker
    This is the practice it is today.
  • speaker
    This is good practice even when the Treasurer was
  • speaker
    another individual.
  • speaker
    I made out all the reports for the treasures for the Treasurer
  • speaker
    and so the secretary
  • speaker
    really knew more about the finances than
  • speaker
    treasurer.
  • speaker
    The purpose of the society is to is
  • speaker
    to advise
  • speaker
    and consult advised the state clerk
  • speaker
    and consult with the state clerk on the historical
  • speaker
    program of the historical society.
  • speaker
    This was written into the structural design that
  • speaker
    he had been made. It was made very explicit that
Details
Title

William B. Miller interviewed by R. Douglas Brackenridge and Fred Heuser, 1991, tape 4, side 1.

Description

Oral history with departing Director of the Presbyterian Historical Society, William B. Miller, taken by Trinity University's R. Douglas Brackenridge, and new PHS Director, Fred Heuser, July 1991.

Creator

Miller, William B. (William Bayard), 1924-2018. (interviewee)
Brackenridge, R. Douglas. (interviewer)
Heuser, Frederick J. (interviewer)

Date

1991
July 1991

Type of resource

sound recording-nonmusical

Genre

oral histories

Form

audiocassettes

Extent

1 audiocassette

Subject names

Presbyterian Historical Society.
Miller, William B. (William Bayard), 1924-2018.

Geographic subjects

North and Central America--United States

Rights status

IN COPYRIGHT - NON-COMMERCIAL USE PERMITTED; http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/

Physical location

CASSETTE 337; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA

Related item

William B. Miller interviewed by R. Douglas Brackenridge and Fred Heuser, 1991--https://catalog.history.pcusa.org/cgi-bin/koha/opac-detail.pl?biblionumb...

Identifier (local)

miller4-1

PID (Persistent Identifier)

islandora:143449

Bookmark

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