Gayraud Wilmore interviewed by J. Oscar McCloud, 1982.

Primary tabs

Download

  • speaker
    Do you have any regrets about that period,
  • speaker
    nine years interruption in your,
  • speaker
    your theological workplace?
  • speaker
    No, not at all. I feel that I was much the
  • speaker
    better theologian by having had that experience.
  • speaker
    I am convinced that one cannot do theology
  • speaker
    from a library carrel
  • speaker
    or from a study desk.
  • speaker
    I think one has to be out in the world to do theology.
  • speaker
    And I always have
  • speaker
    thanked God that He gave me an opportunity to take
  • speaker
    theology, my own theology into the streets in that period
  • speaker
    and to bounce it against the hard realities
  • speaker
    of the world of the
  • speaker
    period 1964 through 71, 72.
  • speaker
    I will say (unintelligible)
  • speaker
    I would say also that
  • speaker
    I felt the need
  • speaker
    to subject some of the things that I have been doing
  • speaker
    to a more careful academic scrutiny after 1971-72.
  • speaker
    So that there was a period of immersion in
  • speaker
    action and then the need to you know move
  • speaker
    back from action to reflect about meaning of action.
  • speaker
    So I think those two things belong together,
  • speaker
    you know, action reflection.
  • speaker
    And that's what my career was about,
  • speaker
    it seems to me,
  • speaker
    in the 1960s and 70s.
  • speaker
    Involvement in action and then a retreat from action in order
  • speaker
    to get ready for the next phase.
  • speaker
    Let me ask you a final kind
  • speaker
    of a question about how you assess
  • speaker
    the racial justice scene today.
  • speaker
    When you began your ministry, you
  • speaker
    mentioned in the earlier interview about the education
  • speaker
    of your oldest son
  • speaker
    helped to launch you into some engagement because of segregated schools.
  • speaker
    Now, in 1982,
  • speaker
    you have some grandchildren and as you look at them
  • speaker
    and look at society around them
  • speaker
    and so forth as racial justice is concerned,
  • speaker
    what are your feelings today?
  • speaker
    I feel that prejudice
  • speaker
    and discrimination on account of race is still very much a part of
  • speaker
    our society. I think it's much more difficult to
  • speaker
    identify
  • speaker
    and expose today than it was 10 years ago because institutions
  • speaker
    have learned how to hide it better.
  • speaker
    But it's still there, there's still prejudice, there's still discrimination based on
  • speaker
    race. I experience it in my own profession in the academic field,
  • speaker
    I see it in the society at large.
  • speaker
    Now what does this have to say to black people?
  • speaker
    I think it has to say to black people that
  • speaker
    the struggle never ends. We must
  • speaker
    continue to be alert,
  • speaker
    vigilant, about the rights that people have in this society
  • speaker
    regardless of race.
  • speaker
    But it also says to me that we cannot rely upon laws
  • speaker
    and statutes and pronouncements
  • speaker
    and all these kinds of things to deal
  • speaker
    with this problem. This problem is much deeper than that.
  • speaker
    It's a problem that the Gospel addresses,
  • speaker
    first of all, at the depth of the human soul that
  • speaker
    has to do with sin, radical sin,
  • speaker
    in all of us.
  • speaker
    But it's also a problem that requires
  • speaker
    our taking responsibility for ourselves.
  • speaker
    Quite apart from what other people want to do against us because
  • speaker
    of our race. So that I faced the 1980s
  • speaker
    with a sense of not having,
  • speaker
    not wanting to rely upon white folks to do something,
  • speaker
    to solve the problem for me,
  • speaker
    that I now have enough room, it seems to me,
  • speaker
    to operate to begin to do some things on my own by
  • speaker
    dint of my own moral effort and by the strength
  • speaker
    and solidarity of black people working together for
  • speaker
    legitimate objectives.
  • speaker
    So that I'm really trying to make
  • speaker
    up my mind about what this means programmatically now,
  • speaker
    and I think that's relevant to what is the future of
  • speaker
    the Council on Church and Race.
  • speaker
    But my initial reaction is that
  • speaker
    we need to stop crying and complaining
  • speaker
    and blaming somebody else
  • speaker
    and take responsibility for ourselves, and do some things that we can
  • speaker
    do and nobody else can do for us.
  • speaker
    Do you, I gather from what you're saying that you would also say that
  • speaker
    there is a key role for
  • speaker
    the black church in terms of blacks in the church.
  • speaker
    Do you sense any new awareness on the part of black Christians
  • speaker
    of the kind of responsibility
  • speaker
    and initiative on our part that you just were speaking of?
  • speaker
    I did, up until maybe two years ago,
  • speaker
    I think there's been some slippage
  • speaker
    in the last two or three years,
  • speaker
    probably since Ronald Reagan's ascendancy.
  • speaker
    Toward the end of the last Republican administration,
  • speaker
    I think,
  • speaker
    we began to see black people,
  • speaker
    black Christians lose some of that
  • speaker
    sense of vocation and mission that I think was abroad in the
  • speaker
    mid 70s going into maybe 1975,
  • speaker
    76, 77,
  • speaker
    1979, 80, 81, yes,
  • speaker
    I think we've lost some things there.
  • speaker
    But I don't think it's irretrievably lost.
  • speaker
    I think our leadership has not been good
  • speaker
    and our communications facilities
  • speaker
    have not served us well. We're not writing.
  • speaker
    We don't have the kind of information going out that
  • speaker
    tends to inspire and mobilize people
  • speaker
    and we need we need to do more in that regard. I'm trying to do my part in terms of
  • speaker
    writing in order to, to recoup something that,
  • speaker
    I don't think it's irretrievably lost.
  • speaker
    I think we're in a period of ebb and flow, and right now,
  • speaker
    I think it's a kind of ebbing of enthusiasm for
  • speaker
    social action within the black church.
  • speaker
    Rooted and grounded in a sense of vocation
  • speaker
    and mission that black people have.
  • speaker
    Okay, let me ask you one last question about the United Presbyterian
  • speaker
    Church along these lines. Would
  • speaker
    you comment on what you assess to be the situation in the United Presbyterian
  • speaker
    Church in that the
  • speaker
    church finds it possible to utilize
  • speaker
    the gifts, the leadership ability
  • speaker
    and skills of blacks in seminaries,
  • speaker
    in synods, and national agencies,
  • speaker
    but
  • speaker
    blacks still seem to be quite absent
  • speaker
    from involvement in the leadership of white
  • speaker
    or predominate white congregations?
  • speaker
    Well, I don't know, I'm puzzled to know why that is.
  • speaker
    I think, first of all,
  • speaker
    of course it has to do with that continuation of prejudice,
  • speaker
    bias within the white constituency of the United
  • speaker
    Presbyterian Church that we just talked about. I think it's still there,
  • speaker
    and it's not
  • speaker
    easy for white people to think of blacks being
  • speaker
    leaders and pastors of local congregations.
  • speaker
    I think it also has something to do, however,
  • speaker
    with the fact that we have not prepared young black
  • speaker
    leaders for the kind of
  • speaker
    trailblazing,
  • speaker
    experimental, progressive ministries to whites
  • speaker
    that such a pastor would represent in my mind.
  • speaker
    And one of the things I've tried to do, for example,
  • speaker
    in my teaching in seminary is to say that there may be,
  • speaker
    among these black students here, some of us who are called to pastor in an
  • speaker
    all white congregation, to demonstrate something in a
  • speaker
    metropolitan area. Maybe we ought to have one
  • speaker
    or two in every metropolitan area.
  • speaker
    That doesn't mean we all have to be pastoring white churches
  • speaker
    but there ought to be some churches, some white churches in these metropolitan areas which demonstrate
  • speaker
    the possibilities with respect to integration at that level.
  • speaker
    And also give an opportunity to bright young blacks to
  • speaker
    lead white people in a direction that some of their own white ministers have never been able to
  • speaker
    take them. So I think,
  • speaker
    you know, here again, I think we have responsibility as well as the church.
  • speaker
    And while we are saying to the judicatories you
  • speaker
    need to produce some churches that want to call black
  • speaker
    ministers as pastors,
  • speaker
    we need to prepare some black young men and women to take those jobs.
  • speaker
    Gay, I'd like to thank you very much for
  • speaker
    your sharing
  • speaker
    with us by means of this taped interview.
  • speaker
    Some of your reflections on your period of service as the director
  • speaker
    of the Commission on Religion Race,
  • speaker
    and the Council on Religion Race
  • speaker
    and including some of your views on
  • speaker
    the status of racial justice in both church
  • speaker
    and society.
  • speaker
    I say thank you very much and look forward to
  • speaker
    sitting with you some time again to pursue some of
  • speaker
    the same kinds of subjects,
  • speaker
    maybe a few years hence.
  • speaker
    Well thank you, Oscar, for the opportunity to do this.
  • speaker
    And I'm looking forward to getting your reaction to some of the things that are on
  • speaker
    these tapes because I think of all the people in our church today who know
  • speaker
    something about this period,
  • speaker
    you probably know more than most of us,
  • speaker
    I imagine.
  • speaker
    You play a very strategic role in all of this
  • speaker
    and you have restrained yourself admirably in not
  • speaker
    repudiating
  • speaker
    or even seconding some of the things that I know
  • speaker
    I have said and others have as well.
  • speaker
    So, looking forward to doing more. Thank you.

Bookmark

BookBags: