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Interviews on the Palestinian question, tape 1, 1964.
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- speakerStanding in front of the Damascus Gate outside the walls of Jerusalem Jordan
- speakeryou're a stone's throw from the no man's land that divides this holy city. Here
- speakeryou're on the Arab side of the truce line that was drawn by the United Nations in 1949
- speakerat the end of the Arab-Israeli war. You can see the other side from here the
- speakernew City of Jerusalem lying in what the Arabs call occupied Palestine.
- speakerAnd what the rest of the world calls Israel. Look up and you can see armed Jordanian
- speakersoldiers sandbags are piled against the parapets and the guns are pointed
- speakertoward the other side. And you know that a few hundred feet away there are Israeli
- speakerguns pointed in this direction. It's been a tense and uneasy truce for 15
- speakeryears. Today the usual tension has been increased by plans on both
- speakersides to divert the waters of the River Jordan. Talk to any English
- speakerspeaking Arab at the Damascus Gate and he'll tell you that the world and in particular the
- speakerUnited States knows only the Israeli side of the story. He feels he
- speakerknows what he's talking about. He sees the American magazines and big city papers.
- speakerHe believes the United States is solidly pro-Zionist. And, he regards the United States
- speakeras chiefly responsible for establishing the state of Israel. The problem is a
- speakercomplex one too complex for the visitor to grasp. I tried to learn
- speakermore about the Arab side of it.
- speakerI learned rather quickly that Arabs, Christians and Muslims alike, are amazed
- speakerat the misconceptions that many American visitors have about the Palestine problem.
- speakerI called on Mr. Najib Qurei in his office at St. George's Cathedral. Mr.
- speakerHorry is Arab secretary to the Anglican Archbishop in Jerusalem. He was a public
- speakerinformation officer during the British Mandate. He and his family fled Palestine
- speakerduring the war of 1948. I told Mr. Cory I'd heard people claim that the
- speakerPalestine problem is essentially a religious conflict.
- speakerThis claim is untrue and refuted from its foundation
- speakerbecause the Jews and Arabs lived together in peace and
- speakerharmony for seven centuries and never had
- speakerany trouble amongst themselves. The Jews were
- speakeraccepted and integrated into Arab society
- speakerthrough commercial dealing and cultural activities
- speakerand even through intermarriage.
- speakerDo you make a distinction between Judaism then, as you knew it before 1948,
- speakerand let's say Zionism as a political movement? Of
- speakercourse Jews have always tried to mislead the public
- speakerin using the terms "Zionist" and "Jew" interchangeably.
- speakerThey have also tried to confuse between
- speakerJudaism and Zionism. The fact is that Zionism
- speakeras an organization has not been
- speakeraccepted here just the same way that
- speakercommunism is not accepted
- speakerin America by American Christians as well
- speakeras by others. then in other words you would say that although there are religious
- speakerdifferences, these differences are not the cause of the trouble.
- speakerThe conflict has nothing to do with the religious
- speakerdifferences.
- speakerThe conflict in brief is a question of
- speakerseizure of Arab property and lands
- speakerand the expulsion of the Arab inhabitants from their
- speakerown homes and property.
- speakerIt's a commonly held view, however isn't it, that the Arab refugees have been offered
- speakercomplete repatriation by Israel.
- speakerIt is not true. The Jew never offered the Arab complete
- speakerrepatriation. The leaders of Israel, in
- speakerIsrael itself and outside
- speakerespecially in the United Nations, often declared
- speakerthat they are not willing to repatriate the Arabs into
- speakerIsrael believing that such repatriation
- speakerwould bring in undesirable elements into the
- speakercountry.
- speakerBut isn't it true that the United Nations has passed resolutions regarding
- speakerrepatriation, Mr. Qurei? That Arab countries
- speakerhave often requested the United Nations to
- speakerimplement its decision of repatriation of
- speaker1948. But the Jews have refused
- speakerthis offer always.
- speakerIt's often been said Mr. Horry that the Arabs started the war by their own aggression in
- speaker1948 and therefore have no right to Palestine. I'm
- speakerafraid the war in Palestine was not started
- speakerby the Arabs in 1948 but by the Zionists
- speakerin 1946 both
- speakeragainst the British Mandate and the Arabs alike.
- speakerIn point of fact both Arab leaders and the
- speakerordinary citizens of the country never accepted
- speakerZionist state nor the partition
- speakerof their country, because the Arabs felt by so
- speakerdoing they were then were given away without their
- speakerconsent.
- speakerNow tell me Mr. Cory you're being very frank and I appreciate that. Tell me
- speakerwhy the Arabs have thus far not negotiated this whole matter with the state of
- speakerIsrael? Well
- speakerfor the Arabs to negotiate with Israel means
- speakeracceptance and recognition of this injustice
- speakerand confiscation of lands and property
- speakermore so the Jews want to negotiate on the present situation
- speakerand not on the United Nations decisions.
- speakerWell one of those decisions, of course, of the United Nations was to create the state
- speakerof Israel. In the face of that decision, why did the Arab
- speakernations refuse to recognize the new state? If
- speakerit is ridiculous for the Arabs to continue to refuse to
- speakerrecognize Israel, then it is ridiculous for the United
- speakerStates to continue to refuse to recognize red China.
- speakerIt is also ridiculous for the United Nations to continue to
- speakerrefuse to admit red China into its organization.
- speakerAnd I take it, Mr. Horry, that you think it is not ridiculous, is that true? It is not ridiculous,
- speakersure. Mr. Horry I believe you and your family were refugees, is that not right? Both
- speakermyself and my family are refugees.
- speakerWhen did you leave Palestine? I
- speakerleft Palestine and second of May
- speaker1948.
- speakerCan you tell me some of the conditions that surrounded your leaving. Why did you decide to leave?The
- speakerreason I decided to leave because the
- speakerZionist or Diakonah made it so difficult for us to
- speakerstay. In fact the last few days I was
- speakernot able to get food for my children. More, more so I
- speakerwas shot at three times. And, we had one
- speakera man who was killed near our house and we had to
- speakerkeep him in the sun for three days and take him at night in order to bury him.
- speakerCircumstances were very difficult to stay there.
- speakerWhen you left your home with your family, Mr. Horry, did you expect to return soon
- speakerafter? In
- speakerpoint of fact we thought it was a question of a week. And,
- speakerthis is why we were not even over.
- speakerAside from the fact we were not able to carry anything with us,
- speakerwe thought we would leave everything. And in a week's time we return.
- speakerWhat about now do you see any hope for a return, Mr. Horry?
- speakerIf the United Nations and the
- speakerbig powers, Western powers, use their sagacity and
- speakerjustice, we will return. The idea of return is
- speakerforemost in the minds of the Palestinian Arabs who fled to safety during the 1948
- speakerfighting.
- speakerTheir desire to go home has remained strong for 16 years and there is no sign it
- speakerwill weaken in the foreseeable future. Arabs wonder that the rest of the world
- speakercannot understand their desire and they are impatient with the United Nations for
- speakerfailing to implement it.
- speakerThis is Kenn Carmichael from Jerusalem Jordan.
- speakerIt's been 16 years since the start of the Arab Israeli War. Standing
- speakerhere at the Damascus gate of old Jerusalem in Jordan you can still see signs of the
- speakerfighting. Half demolished buildings stand between the Arab and Israeli sides of the
- speakertruce line. Armed soldiers and gun emplacements are ready for action on
- speakerboth sides. These facts do not interrupt the flow of business at the
- speakerDamascus Gate. But they are a part of one of the stickiest problems of international
- speakerdiplomacy and foreign policy. The so-called Palestine problem.
- speakerThe outlines of the problem are simple. In 1948 the United Nations
- speakerpartitioned Palestine, divided it between the Jews and the Arabs and
- speakercreated the state of Israel on Palestinian soil. But both the
- speakerPalestinian Arabs and the several Arab states rejected the idea of partition
- speakeron what they felt to be reasonable grounds. Palestine had been
- speakerpredominantly Arab for 13 centuries. The Arabs held that the land
- speakerwas not the United Nations to give away. The result was war
- speakerand one of the results of the war was nearly a million homeless Arab refugees.
- speakerSince the end of open hostilities, the United Nations has operated an extensive
- speakerand varied programme of relief for Palestinian refugees. Side by side with
- speakerthat program, churches have worked for the same length of time and in as many ways.
- speakerThe Mennonite Central Committee for example has established schools in the Hebron area. I
- speakercalled on Herbert Swartz director of the Mennonite Central Committee in Jordan.
- speakerI asked him if there was much of a Christian community in Hebron. No. Hebron is, I would say,
- speakerprobably 99 percent Moslem. Is the Committee politically involved at all in
- speakerthe Palestine question, Mr. Swartz? I
- speakerwould say not. The committee is interested in meeting need
- speakerwhere there is need. And, there is need in Jordan in spite of whatever
- speakerpolitical involvement there might be. The committee will remain as long as its
- speakerpossible as long as the government feels that it wants us to be here.
- speakerOne of the continuing needs of the refugee population is medical care. The
- speakerLutheran World Federation has been operating Augusta Victoria Hospital in an old building that
- speakerwas originally intended to serve as a hostel. The structure stands in a
- speakerdemilitarized area. I visited the hospital with Mr. Joseph Thompson
- speakerfor three years senior representative of the Lutheran World Federation in the Middle East.
- speakerI asked him about this demilitarized zone. The zone that was established in
- speaker1948 in July when the truce was finally arrived at. It
- speakermeans the Arabs and Israelis. This zone this is the an
- speakeran international demilitarized zone inside of Jordan.
- speakerAre your patients all refugees? Yes
- speakerthey are substantially all refugees.
- speakerWe operate the hospital in cooperation with U.N.R.R.A., which has the
- speakermandate to provide medical care for the refugees. From where we
- speakerwere out in front of the hospital, I can see a complex of buildings
- speakerpart of which I am told is the Hebrew University. Is there
- speakerany connection between that area and a hospital which I'm told is not in
- speakeruse.
- speakerYes. In this same zone it is the Hadassah hospital, a 200 bed
- speakermodern hospital, which has stood empty ever since 1948.
- speakerWhy. Why is that not being used by the Arabs for the refugees who need it? The
- speakerIsraelis insisted that this these facilities be not made
- speakeravailable to the Arabs and so were able to get it into the agreement that was arranged in
- speakerJuly of 1948.
- speakerSo it has stood empty all these years in spite of the fact that there was no modern hospital
- speakeravailable in Jerusalem Jordan, And, do you mean as a consequence then, Augusta
- speakerVictoria had to be transformed into a hospital. That's right. It was never intended to be used as a
- speakerhospital. And, it's been of course very difficult to operate it as
- speakersuch.
- speakerDo you see any hope in this tangled situation, Mr.
- speakerTHOMPSON? The hope is that the
- speakerPalestinian Arab refugees are certainly anxious to
- speakerimprove their lot in life. The children are anxious to get an education. The
- speakerparents are just as anxious for them to get one.
- speakerHowever their hope is just as strong as ever that they want to get
- speakerback again to their own homes and to their own land, which were so
- speakercruelly taken away from them in the troubles of 1948.
- speakerThe hope to return is mentioned by everyone who has a share in helping the Palestinian
- speakerrefugees. I talked with Mr. Richard Butler executive secretary of the
- speakerRefugee Committee of the Near East Christian Council.
- speakerI asked him why the churches became involved and if it isn't true that the United Nations is
- speakercarrying on an extensive program of its own. Yes, the refugee program with the United
- speakerNations carried on through their United Nations
- speakerRelief and Works Agency going around is perhaps one of the
- speakerlargest such refugee programs in the world. However because of the very
- speakernature of the refugee program of UNRRA,
- speakerthere is a great need for the church to be there and to
- speakerfill in the gaps. The UNRRA definition of a Palestinian Arab
- speakerrefugee in itself makes necessary the work of other agencies such
- speakeras ours such as the church. According to the United Nations a
- speakerPalestinian Arab refugee is one who lived in Palestine for two years
- speakerprior to the fighting in 1948. And as a result of that fighting
- speakerlost both his home and his means of livelihood and is today
- speakerin need.
- speakerThere are certain categories of people who do not
- speakercompletely fulfill this definition, but because of their
- speakersituation , because of the fighting in 1948 and the
- speakerresultant defects, they are today in need of. One such
- speakerexample are the frontier villagers of Jordan. These are essentially an
- speakeragricultural people, farmers who traditionally placed their homes
- speakeron the rocky hillsides, the hillsides considered unsuitable for
- speakeragriculture for cultivation and farmed the lush green plain
- speakerwhich stretches from these hills down to the Mediterranean Sea. Today that
- speakerplane is in the hands of the Israelis. The Arab frontier villagers
- speakerstill have their homes on the rocky hillsides. They lost
- speakertheir means of livelihood. But they did not lose their homes. Therefore they don't qualify
- speakerfor United Nations assistance. It's among groups such as this that the church is
- speakertrying to do work and to bring some hope. What are the
- speakerArab governments doing, Mr. Butler, anything at all? I believe it's
- speakera general misconception that the Arab governments are not doing anything
- speakerto help the refugee situation. In fact most people probably try to paint a
- speakerpicture of the Arab governments being more of a hindrance than a help.
- speakerBut there are many ways in which the governments, the Arab governments, are helping the
- speakerrefugees. For example the United Nations has estimated that
- speakersince 1948 when the Arab governments have
- speakercontributed something like 57 million dollars
- speakertoward United Nations program for Refugee Assistance
- speakertotal of about five million dollars a year. In addition to this there are many
- speakerindirect services which the red the Arab governments give to the refugees. Is
- speakerthe problem of the refugee growing less or more acute? The
- speakerrefugee numbers are growing. Each year there are about
- speaker30000 children born to refugee families.
- speakerAnd these children are also considered refugees. I think that the problem
- speakeris growing in another way that is in the
- speakerloss of whole which people have
- speakerwhen the refugees fled their homes. They expected to return in a
- speakermatter of days weeks months at the most. It's now been 16
- speakeryears. They've been nurturing a hope of return ever since. This
- speakerhope is not dying but because of the lack of
- speakerfulfillment of this hope, I believe the refugees are getting more and more
- speakerdesperate, more and more determined that perhaps the only way to
- speakerreturn is by violence. Until that return
- speakeris accomplished or until hope evaporates,
- speakerMr. Butler, what do you regard as the greatest need of the refugee which
- speakerthe church and the United Nations and the Arab countries are trying to meet?
- speakerWe're trying to help the refugees prepare themselves for a life wherever they are,
- speakerwhether this be in vocational training or through home
- speakereconomics classes for women or general education. The
- speakeremphasis of the refugee programs now is not so much on Direct
- speakerRelief, handing out food and clothing, though this is still necessary in many
- speakercases. But particularly to prepare young people, so that they can
- speakerlead useful constructive lives whether it be where they are now living
- speakerin exile or if and when they should return to their homes in occupied
- speakerPalestine. Is the state of Israel doing anything to help the
- speakerArab refugee? The state of Israel does not recognize the
- speakerexistence of Arab refugees in Israel. And of course they're not doing anything to
- speakerhelp those living outside of Israel.
- speakerMeanwhile the tension increases between Arab and Israeli. And
- speakerno one predicts either an early or a simple solution. This is
- speakerKenn Carmichael from Jerusalem.
- speakerJordan.
- speakerWatching the crowds outside the Damascus gate of old Jerusalem and the Hashemite Kingdom of
- speakerJordan you aren't aware of the tension that lies under the surface. You're
- speakerreminded of it however when you look up and see the soldiers at the parapets. Both the
- speakerArabs and the Israelis are ready to fight if necessary, the Israelis on the one hand
- speakerto retain the Arab land they occupied in the war of 1948. The
- speakerArabs on the other hand to regain that part of Palestine which makes up the new state
- speakerof Israel.
- speakerEvery year thousands of tourists visit the holy land in Jordan. The threat of
- speakerrenewed war between Arabs and Israelis has not reduced the flow. I've
- speakerwondered what impression the tourists make on Jordanian businessman. What impression
- speakerdo they make say on young men who were only nine or 10 years old when the war of 1948
- speakerdrove them from their homes to seek refuge in neighboring Arab countries. Some of
- speakerthese men have found or created jobs and are making new lives for themselves and their families.
- speakerThey don't ask much from the tourist beyond friendship and the business he can give to Jordan.
- speakerWilliam Alonzo is a clerk in the bank of the Middle East in Jerusalem. I asked him how
- speakerold he was in 1948 1948.
- speakerI was 10 years old. Do you remember anything that happened to you when you left your
- speakerhome in Palestine?
- speakerWell I can remember with the last month or so before we left
- speakerPalestine. What happened then? Well, it was something of a terror. For
- speakerexample, all the young people that were living in our building had to
- speakerkeep up waiting all day all night long to guard the
- speakerhouse so that nobody can enter.
- speakerDid you expect to go back immediately after you left your home? Of course, we were expecting
- speakerbecause it was something temporary that the Jews had to
- speakerout and everything would be normal again. William, in your work at the bank, do you see
- speakermany American tourists? Yes, I see many American tourists. Are they well informed
- speakerabout the situation here in the Middle East?
- speakerI don't think they are well informed. They are informed about most about
- speakerIsrael and not enough about the Arab countries.
- speakerRoland Horry's father was a supervisory officer in the post office in the new city
- speakerbefore the war of 1948. Today he and Roland have a money changing office
- speakeron Christian street in the Old City. I ask Roland where he was in
- speaker48.
- speakerWell as far as I remember I was in New Jerusalem.
- speakerAnd where did you go when you left? Well, we left first of all to the Old
- speakerCity where we are right now. And from there we left for
- speakerBeirut Lebanon. How long did you stay in Lebanon? We stayed there
- speakeralmost 20 years. And, it was after that then that you came back to the old city? We came back the old city. Roland,
- speakerI think you were telling me you've been to the States? Yes. What year was that?
- speaker1962. What do you remember most vividly about your visit there, Roland?
- speakerYeah.
- speakerThis is something I can never forget. The people there. I used
- speakerto meet and usually they were the students the educated people. They
- speakernever knew that there was two Jerusalems. They knew that there
- speakerwas only one Jerusalem that they know of the Jewish part. But
- speakeractually they never knew that Jerusalem was divided in two parts the same way
- speakeras Berlin is right now. That's something which made me mad.
- speakerSo I used to tell them that Jerusalem is divided in two. Samir Feo
- speakeralong with his father and brother runs a taxi service in Jerusalem. The family
- speakerhad a garage before the war. It's now in occupied Palestine. I asked
- speakerSamir of their old home also in occupied Palestine was nearby.
- speakerYes. Yes. I can touch it. It's along the border.
- speakerThe street, the Prophets Street. It's nearly the border line between
- speakerJerusalem Jordan and Israel. Where did your family go when they
- speakerleft?
- speakerWe went to live in Salt, which was in
- speakerTrans-Jordan about 90
- speakerkilometers or 55 miles from Jerusalem.
- speakerWe went there for about 11 months during the trouble
- speakerin 1948 and we came back again. We live about a
- speakerblock or two from where we used to live.
- speakerIs that near where your taxi stand is now? Yes. It's the same place. Samir you,
- speakerand your family, being in the sightseeing business, come in contact with many tourists, do you not?
- speakerYes. Do you find them well-informed about Jordan and about
- speakerthe Middle East generally?
- speakerWell some of them, yes, and some of them, no. Those
- speakerwho are iinformed and are
- speakerinterested about the holy places. Most of them they are religious
- speakerpeople. And, they know that their Bible, their
- speakerhistory. And, they can tell you even if they are
- speakerway or miles from Jordan, they
- speakercan teach you. And, some of them they don't know anything about the country
- speakeror about the holy places. You have to teach them or tell them or
- speakerexplain to them.
- speakerTell me what some of the tourists think about the Arab countries before they come here?
- speakerWell they think that the Arab, they are
- speakerlike the nomads people, who live
- speakerbetween the hills and the rocks and so forth. And
- speakerwhen they come here they find those people still the same way. But
- speakerjust quite a few of them very few of them. Are they
- speakersurprised to find merchants and business humming?
- speakerOh yes sometimes they don't believe that. They don't believe that we have
- speakerfactories and we have nice buildings and we have broadcast, radio,
- speakertelevision in the Arab countries.
- speakerI understand that tourism is the biggest industry in Jordan, is that true, Samir? Yes
- speakerit is, specially in Jerusalem on the west bank of
- speakerthe Jordan.
- speakerIf someone wants to visit the holy places, where would you advise them first to go?
- speakerWell I think Jerusalem, the holy
- speakercity, and Bethlehem and the River
- speakerJordan, the baptism place. All of these places you're mentioning are in what countries, Samir? In
- speakerJordan, Arab country. The threat of renewed hostilities
- speakerbetween the Arab nations and Israel will have to become much greater before tourists and pilgrims
- speakerwill give up the holy land. Just about everybody here in Jordan however will tell you that the threat is
- speakerbecoming greater. How much greater it can become without triggering an explosion is anybody's
- speakerguess. Meanwhile business was never better. This is Kenn
- speakerCarmichael from Jerusalem
- speakerJordan
