You are here
The church mosaic, side 1.
Primary tabs
Download
- speakerGathered together in common vulnerability, we discover how much
- speakerwe have to give each other. The Christian community is the
- speakeropposite of a highly uniform group of people whose behavior has been
- speakertoned down to a common denominator and whose originality has
- speakerdulled. On the contrary the Christian community
- speakergathered in common discipleship is a place where individual gifts can
- speakerbe called forth and put into service for the benefit of all
- speakerThat belongs to the essence of this new togetherness
- speakerthat our unique talents are no longer objects of competition, but
- speakerelements of community. No longer qualities that divide,
- speakerbut gifts that unite. In community the particular talents
- speakerof the individual members become like the little stones that form
- speakera great mosaic. The fact that a little gold, blue or
- speakerred piece is part of a splendid mosaic makes it not
- speakerless, but more valuable because it contributes to an
- speakerimage much greater than itself.
- speakerThese words, I believe, echo our purpose, which you have before you
- speakerin the adaptable model which we hope you will take home and feel led to
- speakeruse. I would like to read that purpose, and you might like to read along with me.
- speakerWe seek to picture the church as a mosaic,
- speakeridentifying the pieces by recognizing the gifts each person
- speakerbrings, hearing their concerns, feeling each
- speakerother's pain, that together we might discover new ways of responding
- speakerto each other as we the church try to live and walk in
- speakerfaithfulness to God's call. Then by God's grace we will no
- speakerlonger be isolated pieces, but a picture of wholeness.
- speakerWe're most fortunate and privileged to have Miss Jane Whitney
- speakerfrom Philadelphia as our moderator and facilitator here today.
- speakerJane is the host of the Jane Whitney show WCAU-T V
- speakerPhiladelphia, a public affairs talk show. She has been
- speakerwith Channel ten since nineteen eighty, and prior to that time she was co-host
- speakerof PM Magazine for K.X. T.V. in Sacramento California.
- speakerShe has had a great deal of experience and expertise in communication
- speakerand is keenly aware and knowledgeable about the any many issues facing society
- speakerand the church today. Jane is also a Presbyterian woman
- speakerand so familiar somewhat with the idiosyncrasies of our denomination.
- speakerHer warm and open personality make you really feel right at
- speakerhome. Jane, we welcome you to with us today. [Whitney, Jane speaking] Thank you very much.
- speakerRight now I think we should meet the panelists. And, I think, so we all have
- speakeran idea of what your lives are like. Describe your life in three sentences, George.
- speakerWe are going to ask each of them to just tell us briefly about who they are. I must start with George
- speakerMorgan.[Morgan, George Pidcock]
- speaker[Morgan speaking] I live in Columbus Ohio. I'm Synod Executive in the
- speakerSenate of the Covenant, which is
- speakermost of Ohio, Michigan, and Kentucky.
- speakerI've
- speakerhad three careers, all of them in the church and all quite
- speakerdifferent. I've been a parish pastor. I have been a university pastor
- speakerand a church administrator. I've lived in a lot of places
- speakerStarting in West Virginia, in New Jersey, in New York State, in
- speakerScotland, in California, now in Ohio.
- speakerSo that I've seen a lot of the church. I have
- speakerA background theologically which I would identify as
- speakerhistorically evangelical, and I'm a member of the Witherspoon Society.
- speakerI have two daughters and two sons-in-law and two grandsons, whose pictures
- speakerI would be glad to show you.
- speakerOK. Mary Yamamoto.
- speaker[Yamamoto speaking] OK I'm from Davis California and I'm a deacon in the Davis Community Church.
- speakerAnd and I have five girls and two boys. And my husband
- speakeris a professor in the medical school at U.C.D. And I would like
- speakerto mention that during the War, I was interned in camp.
- speakerAnd, that was an experience I will
- speakernot forget. And, I know there will be some questions coming from the audience
- speakerabout this past. And I hope I will be able to
- speakeranswer some of the questions for you. OK. Thelma
- speakerAdair.
- speaker[Adiar speaking] Veteran Presbyterian
- speakerI am Thelma Adair [Adair, Thelma C. Davidson] . I live in New York City
- speakerin the center of the black community, where my husband [Adair, Arthur Eugene]
- speakerpastored a church [Mount Morris Ascension Presbyterian Church] that we organized in the early nineteen forties for more than
- speakerthirty-eight years until his death.
- speakerBy profession I teach. I am a full-time thirty-
- speakersix hour a day volunteer. And, I have served as Moderator of
- speakeryour church. And, I am presently the national
- speakerpresident of Church Women United.
- speakerMartha Campbell. I'm from Highbridge, New Jersey, having also
- speakerlived in the Chicago area, Cleveland and Columbus, Ohio, due to
- speakercorporate transfers. A few years ago I was pretty secure in the knowledge
- speakerthat, as a suburban wife and mother and
- speakervolunteer, that I was the typical United Presbyterian Women, woman.
- speakerI now find that that is not true, and that I am one of the new minority
- speakerof
- speakerfull time mothers, who is also a volunteer.
- speakerI'm grateful that I am just another piece in the mosaic.
- speakerKent Pipes [Pipes, Kenton R.].
- speaker[Pipes speaking] I'm Kent Pipes. I'm living right now in Willingboro, New Jersey. I was
- speakerraised in California in a very fundamentalist home, non
- speakerPresbyterian. I went to seminary and converted to Presbyterian.
- speakerI then finished at McCormick Seminary, entered the ministry kicking and screaming, didn't feel
- speakerthat God really was directing me there.
- speakerExcept for the fact that that's where the church was. I had friends who had left
- speakerthe organized church and started a community, one of which
- speakerbecame Sojourners Fellowship, now in Washington D.C. I
- speakerfelt very much on the outside of the organized church and still sometimes feel that
- speakerway because of my political and social views, though I find myself theologically
- speakerto be the perspective of the evangelical andconservative side. So, I
- speakertend to have friends and enemies in all camps of the church.
- speakerRight now I'm pastoring during half time and supporting myself and my family
- speakerselling real estate and insurance. My wife and I and my wife was also selling insurance to and
- speakeralso an organist in the congregation where we are. So I
- speakerthink that little bit of background. shows you how diverse we are
- speakertoday.
- speakerOK Right now we're going to have to try to do the same thing with the reactors, who are down in the audience for
- speakerthe reason that maybe you can distance yourself a little bit despite the fact you are on the front row.
- speakerand Allan I'll start with you. Boesak right? Allan Boesak? My name is Allan Boesak.
- speakerI come from Cape Town South Africa. I am
- speakera campus minister and live and work in a
- speakersituation, which is sometimes difficult.
- speakerAnd one cannot live comfotably except if you want to live with the Lord. And, I am very happy to be here.
- speakerI am Jill Martinez. I'm a third year student at San Francisco Theological Seminary.
- speakerAnd, I'm currently doing my internship in Guadalupe, California, which is a
- speakersmall migrant farm community and which is also my home. I'm Don Black. [Black, Donald F.]
- speakerI'm Associate Director of the Program Agency
- speakerand the husband of Fran Black, who works for the Thelma Adair in
- speakerChurch Women United and tries to keep subscription lists straight and so forth and
- speakerto top George Morgan, which is my only chance to do that, we have seven
- speakergrandchildren. You have more time. Two of
- speakerour sons are in the pastorate, one as a chaplain in the
- speakerhospital in Cincinnati, the other pastor in a church in New York State. The third
- speakeris a banker and that's appropriate with two brothers and a father in the ministry
- speakerto be sort of the work.
- speakerOK we've met the principals. I would just like to say when I was invited to do this.
- speakerI don't remember when it was, but it was quite some time ago to be here at Purdue. I
- speakerthink I was asked to do so because I do have a show in Philadelphia where we cover issues of local,
- speakernational or international concern, everything ranging from the Human Life Amendment to Agent
- speakerOrange to the threat of nuclear war. And, I don't think they knew when they
- speakerasked me that I was Presbyterian, or I am Presbyterian.
- speakerI must admit, though, the folks at the national office were kind enough to send
- speakerme the Church and Society publication dating back to nineteen seventy-three. I've been
- speakerreading ever since. It's a lot of reading. It was very
- speakerinteresting. I must say. I must confess
- speakerthat I didn't know. My Presbyterianism really doesn't extend far beyond the
- speaker"Doxology" and the Apostle's Creed. I have to be very honest with you.
- speakerA couple of people cringed involuntarily. What I found, though, in reading through those
- speakerbulletins on whether or not you agree with a sensitive or
- speakercontroversial subject the way the church policy or the General Assembly has blocked it
- speakerout on those bulletins, I was very proud and delighted to
- speakersee that the whole range of human issues, in my opinion,
- speakerwere covered in that publication and are being addressed in the church. And, I think,
- speakerthat's very exciting. So, for that reason, I'm even gladder to be here today. OK
- speakerwhat I want to find out, show of hands, How many of you feel that
- speakerbeing involved in social issues and human issues is a vital
- speakerpart of your Christian ministry? Hands up. Maybe I should ask how
- speakermany feel that it's not a part?
- speakerOK. Oh, wait a second! All right. You don't?
- speakerI do,
- speakerbut our church is very evangelical and
- speakerit bothers me, because I think that we should be involved with social issues, each of
- speakerthe circles have projects, but the church
- speakeras a whole, we just don't. We want to be. We don't have, we don't want to have
- speakerthe big controversies and we're growing by leaps and bounds.
- speakerYes we've built on and we are bulging at the seams again but you
- speakerneed you feel you have to express yourself as an individual when it's not done. You don't do it as a church trial
- speakerright.
- speakerI ask you what kinds of issues do you really care about. Certainly peace in the
- speakerworld and hunger.
- speakerWhat about some of you some of you other folks in the audience? What are some of your real pressing concerns right now?
- speakerI just went through a thirteen-week study of peace in the Sunday School
- speakerclass. And then the session voted not to vote.
- speakerVery depressing. What do you do then? What is your next option? That's why I'm here.
- speakerOK OK You also have problems of ecology
- speakerall over the globe.
- speakerYes I'm primarily ours, I suppose. I saw another hand
- speakerto speak. And is peace in church or union?
- speakerChurch reunion came up earlier than we thought it might, didn't it?
- speakerRunning about five minutes.
- speakerOK. Why don't we save church reunion for a few minutes and get some other concerns before we go on because I think we're going to
- speakertalk about that. Will you stand up?
- speakerI'm Betty Dodson. I'm from Charleston, Illinois. I'm concerned about the thing that the
- speakerfirst woman mentioned.
- speakerI'm concerned about the splits and the rifts in our church fellowship and the unity of the
- speakerchurch because basically a theological stance and theological
- speakerdifferences between conservatives and liberals between
- speakerevangelicals.
- speakerI have a concern. I worry. I'm from New Mexico and I work
- speakerwith the undocumented. And I am concerned about the immigration laws.
- speakerOK. Among many concerns I have is how in the local church, we
- speakercan minister to the community around us.
- speakerI live in a county that presently has twenty-four percent unemployment rate
- speakerwith all the implications of this. I am concerned in how we as a
- speakercongregation can reach out and minister to these people where they are.
- speakerI'm aware that as a church we do much on a larger scale, but I'd like to see it
- speakeron both ends.
- speakerOK.
- speakerI'm concerned about losing some of the friendship of our Latin American
- speakerpeople. They are wonderful folks. And, we should have them as friends and not
- speakerhaving, losing some of that.
- speakerAnd I'd also like to hear something of the good things that the multi
- speakercorporations do in those countries, not just the bad.
- speakerOK.
- speakerYes.
- speakerI'm from Philadelphia. I am concerned about juvenile justice.
- speakerHow about agism? How about agism? How about older women who aren't
- speakersupposed to get old gracefully, but somehow as women we get to be old hags, right? Do men age gracefully?
- speakerDouble standard. Yet a couple back there.
- speakerAnd I'm concerned about land use and soil conservation. I'm from New Jersey,
- speakerand I'm very concerned about teenage alcoholism.
- speakerI'm from Virginia, and I'm very concerned about child abuse and battered women.
- speakerOK maybe we should turn to our panel of just for a minute and find out. Start with you
- speakerMartha, some of the things that were just mentioned. You identify with any of the issues, or do you have your own that you
- speakerreally are especially worried about?
- speakerMy and my most involvement has been with the hunger issue so that I
- speakerreally identify with that. But, what I've discovered over a period of
- speakertime in dealing with the hunger issue is the interrelatedness of all the
- speakerissues. And I hope I'm not begging the question, but what what
- speakerstrikes me about this is that if we don't take a holistic
- speakerview we we cannot get far with artificial
- speakerseparation.
- speakerOK. Thelma? It struck me. Peace.
- speakerThat's the top burner for me since in the last
- speakerfew months we have been on three
- speakerdifferent continents. The groundswell interest
- speakeraround the world for nuclear freeze, the
- speakerbanning of the bomb. I'm speaking now of an Australian
- speakerexperience of being present at the world conference on peace
- speakerin Moscow. You heard very little about it, mostly about Billy Graham
- speakerspeaking in the Rose Bowl on Peace Sunday.
- speakerThe voices are there. And, how can
- speakerthe church help those voices become translated into
- speakerpressure points for government. And, the other was unemployment,
- speakertwenty-four percent for a community. But, if I put on my racial
- speakerethnic cap, I'd have to
- speakerbegin to say to all of us that we are
- speakerbuilding slow-fused time bomb for people. What
- speakerare fifty-three percent black youth, males
- speakerthat have never had a job? It goes with one
- speakerhalf of the population has no work ethic. Now fifty-
- speakerthree percent of black teenagers, those
- speakerkind of people.
- speakerOK Mary? [Yamamoto speaking] Right now, the thing that is bothering me
- speakerare the so-called middle class people that I have been saying,
- speakerwho are now losing their jobs, losing their homes,
- speakerand that children that are involved. They used to
- speakerhave security. They no longer have that. They used to have plenty of food.
- speakerThey no longer have that. So, in our community of Davis, we're trying to.
- speakerWell. What is bad. is that all we are doing is committees committees
- speakerand we aren't going forward.
- speakerOK. George? [Morgan, George Pidcock speaking] This is an
- speakerinteresting discipline for me to try to narrow down what the issues were that
- speakerconcern me the most. And, all the panel decided that they would
- speakerdo that so I tried to do it too.
- speakerI guess
- speakeras far as social issues are concerned, peacemaking is the is the one that is
- speakerhighest on my agenda.
- speakerMy I would give it the highest priority,
- speakerand not just being against war but trying to
- speakercultivate and develop the art of peace in an aggressive,
- speakerin an aggressive way.
- speakerAnother one that's very close and very inter-related is the
- speakerimpact of of economic policy on people.
- speakerIt's not just that I have, within the region I work
- speakerin, the city with the highest unemployment rate in the
- speakerUnited States, Flint, Michigan. But
- speakerand it's not just government economic policy, but it's the economic
- speakerpolicy, the international economic policy of most multi-national corporations and giant
- speakerorgan companies that operate all over over the world and
- speakerhave their own foreign policies and economic policies,
- speakerwhich operate quite independently of governments, but have tremendous
- speakerimpact worldwide on the people of the world.
- speakerThat's a social issue that's bigger than all of us, but has to absorb some
- speakerattention from us. Within the church, I
- speakerhave a very high level concern about Reunion.
- speakerI have wanted it to happen.
- speakerI hope it does, but I would hope for the next five ten years, we do not
- speakerbecome so bogged down organizationally in making it happen
- speakerthat we don't do anything else.
- speakerI'm concerned too about something else, that is sort of elusive to try to put into words.
- speakerIt's it's a kind of separatism that can happen so
- speakereasily in our church when individual congregations can feel
- speakerseparated out. The positive
- speakerword for it I guess would be self-sufficiency. But self-sufficiency can
- speakerbe demonic. And, presbyteries can have that same kind of
- speakerseparate feeling of we don't need anything beyond this or synods
- speakercan or the denomination can. And, that kind of Christian separatism is a
- speakervery
- speakerdemonic thing, I think. Just out of curiosity how many of you have felt that?
- speakerOr have some sort of identity with what George just said about the separatism?
- speakerOK OK. Quite a few. Kent, we'll hear from you. [Pipes, Kenton R. speaking] What
- speakertroubles me most is that I see the church basically functioning as
- speakera religious organization and not willing to be the church
- speakeras I hear it being described and charted as the New Testament body.
- speakerPeople are so ready to accept the savingness of Christ and the power that can
- speakercome to in a sense assure our future. But then they turn right
- speakeraround and protect themselves without becoming fully under the Lordship of
- speakerChrist, which then would allow them to address these issues with abandon: the
- speakerpeace issue when we're not concerned about our own future, but the future of the world Christ
- speakerdied for. Our own economic interest, I mean you can't drive by a Presbyterian church
- speakerparking lot on Sunday morning and believe that they really are reading the same scripture
- speakerthat you read. If you hear the thing saying to you get rid of your
- speakermaterial wealth. Give your extra coat to the poor person doesn't have one.
- speakerLive simply so that others may simply live. I mean if you get at the core of your faith,
- speakerand if you're committed really to being a Christian and following the Lordship of Christ,
- speakerthen these other issues are not issues anymore.
- speakerThe church can work in unison to solve them, but I think we really haven't gotten together
- speakertheologically to really define what it is that God is calling us to be. And, that's
- speakerthe ultimate underlying problem for the church, not the other issues that keep arising.
- speakerBut what it means to be the church. That's where I think we need to address some of the basic
- speakerconcerns.
- speakerOne thing.
- speakerI would agree with that. It brings me to something that concerns me very much and which
- speakermight speak to the woman who wants to know, where do we go next? And, why isn't my church involved?
- speakerAnd, it has to do with our being, I think, very afraid of
- speakerconflict in our church. And, that's not to say that we haven't had many
- speakercontroversial issues over the past several years,
- speakerbut we are in a hurry to rush on to
- speakerthe, the reconciliation. And, I would just like to point out to
- speakeryou that the theme statement for our national meeting
- speakercan be read. And, I'm afraid it's too often read, like this:
- speakerCompelled by gratitude for God's gift of grace to seek a vision for our time,
- speakerwe struggle with questions, experience a tension, that would compromise us over the choices.
- speakerSo we can get to the "Never the less." And, I'm suggesting now that
- speakerwe're going to have to pause at each step along the way. And, until we
- speakerare able to do that, to struggle with the questions,
- speakerto experience that tension.
- speakerYou cannot experience something in a hurry, it takes time. To
- speakerlive with the compromises. In that church, you're going to
- speakerhave to compromise somewhere along the line. Can you live with that?
- speakerAnd then to wrestle with the choices that we have to make.
- speakerYou talk about longevity. and I
- speakerthink I would feel at times we have been content
- speakerto wrestle, but not to seek for closure.
- speakerand I agree that we will
- speakernever be without tension, but I want to let
- speakerlet go some as we've solved this. We
- speakerhave affirmed the fact that we are church of diversity. And we want you
- speakerthere
- speakeras peers. And, let's just move on as peers to tackle
- speakerlocal and regional global issues.
- speakerI think it's peers that we cannot be afraid to disagree.
- speakertoo often, we
- speakerSeem to think that there is no such thing as an angry Christian.
- speakerWe're very uncomfortable. Just let me out! When I was going to say, we need to
- speakerstop right there because. How many people feel? When I was reading, I
- speakermentioned the Church and Society Bulletin. And, I guess, I was a little surprised that their
- speakerpolicy per se stated on abortion,
- speakeron on alcoholism, policy on violence and sex in the
- speakermedia. There was policy on our El Salvador, on Cuba.
- speakerI mean just everything was covered. Now what is that mean to you? I mean the church,
- speakershould the church be in the, not the business, but go about setting
- speakerpolicy?
- speakerWhat does that mean to you?
- speakerNot everybody in this room, I'm sure, agrees about about equal rights for women. Do
- speakerthey? I mean, you know, the Church and Society
- speakerpublication or the General Assembly endorsed equal rights amendment back in nineteen seventy-
- speakerfive. And yet, there is not. Oh, way! OK I want to ask you.
- speakerBut there's a lot of,
- speakeryou know, there's pluralism within this very room. And, I hear talk about unity and going on to
- speakerbigger issues.
- speakerWell, how do you do that? Does anybody have an answer to that?
- speakerActually, I should have pointed out that we're not probably going to get many answers here today. We're just trying to really
- speakerlisten to each other. I think you do. Could you get? I can't fly over there.
- speakerI don't have an answer, but if we take our Christianity seriously, we cannot ignore
- speakerthe people around us in the world. We have to be concerned about what is
- speakerhappening to them and concerned about their needs.
- speakerOne of the ways that we can do that is start by asking people,
- speakerWhat does Jesus Christ mean to you? And, when they answer that question, the
- speakersecond result is then. What difference does it make in your life as you live in the world?
- speakerWhat is God saying to you to do about that thing
- speakerwhich you believe Christ has done for you and in you and to you.
- speakerIf you believe it's directed at God then you can affirm somebody who's struggling to
- speakerprotect children who are being abused. The question is, Is it God-
- speakerdirected or is my socially chosen way to work out my
- speakerfaith. I mean it's an option for me to choose which
- speakersocial issue with mine
- speakeror does God somehow direct the Christian community to
- speakermeet the needs of the people of the world. And, if we get back to a spirit-
- speakerdirected church, then we could affirm each other. It is a matter of discerning the work of
- speakerthe Spirit in our midst, not whether or not you're doing the right thing or not.
- speakerBut, I think the church does have a responsibility corporately to say, "Hey! I think
- speakeryou are wrong!" And, the church has said there are such things as heresies in the past.
- speakerNow, that's where we come to do issue when the church talks about certain
- speakerpolicy kinds of matters. I happen to believe that the church has made misjudgment in
- speakerthe area of freedom of choice and right to life issue. And, I disagree with
- speakerthe church's posture on that. I sit silently, not so quietly,
- speakerbut I have an inner burning inside of me that the church continues to support
- speakerpeace issues and justice issues on all kinds of life-related matters except
- speakerfor the fetuses that are having to struggle right now in our society for their protection.
- speakerAnd, that's a frustration. How do you live in a church and be a part of a church when you agree with
- speakerso much of what it's doing except for this thing which constantly
- speakerburns and festers? Could you answer that question? How do you live with it?
- speakerNot very easily. I think if we look at the six Great Ends of the
- speakerChurch, it's impossible for us to separate our
- speakertheology and the spiritual from our social action. They have
- speakerto meld together. It could be or to be a whole church.
- speakerCan you have? I mean do you have disparity of opinion within a whole church?
- speakerI think that is where creative conflict comes. We don't want to be a
- speakerpattern, all cut from the same pattern. I think we
- speakerhave to have. When the Lord chose his twelve disciples, each one of them
- speakerbrought different gifts to that.
- speakerI'm hearing a lot of murmurs of agreement. Yes? OK. Chris, do you
- speakerhave a comment down here?
- speakerYeah. I just wanted to respond to what I was
- speakerhearing Kent say. And I think it brings us to a point of putting our life on
- speakerthe line and being willing to risk and be vulnerable. And, I think sometimes that
- speakerthat's a hard thing to do. There's a there's a lot of fear that goes with that. What what does that really
- speakermean to to risk and be vulnerable for others? And, I think this is, as someone
- speakersaid to me the other day, this is like a third conversion in your life. And,
- speakerI would be interested in knowing Allan Boesak's response
- speakerto that because I I sense in his life that he has had that
- speakerthird conversion.
- speakerAllan. Talk about, that is another tough act to follow. Have you had a third conversion? Or
- speakera total one? Why don't you stand up. I'm not so sure about
- speakerthat third conversion experience, in the sense, whether I have gone through
- speakerthat voluntarily. about for a long time or lose the idea that I was pushed into
- speakersomething that I never really wanted to do and that God was
- speakerdoing something to me that I was not really ready to
- speakerargue with him about but I didn't want to do it and I find
- speakermyself in a situation where when
- speakera friend sometimes because I have to do certain things I believe
- speakerare right, I have to challenge the government that is in that country right
- speakernow. I have to speak out against injustice.
- speakerI have to I have to stand up and and say
- speakerloudly and clearly what I believe is right and and
- speakerthen your life is in danger.
- speakerThere is a choice between I think being
- speakerafraid of God. I'm more afraid of God than I am of the South African government so to
- speakerspeak.
- speakerAnd it's, but in a sense
- speakerBut you know, in a sense, I would simply just like to to live my life with my wife
- speakerand my children and and be a pastor and do whatever I would
- speakerwant to do. I don't want to be on this line every day
- speakerworrying about what will happen and how will this day end and not being
- speakersure at all.
- speakerBut I'm listening to what you are saying, both from the people here on the panel
- speakerand I want to raise one or two issues here.
- speakerWe can come back to this thing that I have just been talking about if you want to, but
- speakerthis peace issue thing? I wonder first of all whether we have
- speakerthough about it that there is a definite link between the peace issue that the
- speakerchurch is fighting for and the whole question of abortion. And, I look
- speakerat it this way: Why is it that we have always been so many Christians been
- speakerso worried about protecting life as long as it is
- speakerunborn? Once that life is born, we don't care anymore. Then babies can die.
- speakerPeople can die.
- speakerThose, those same children that we wanted to save, we send off to war
- speakerand they die there senselessly. So that's the one thing or the
- speakerother thing about this issue is we, as a church,
- speakerI think one has to learn that we have to be
- speakerjust a little bit more humble than we are in this issue. I'm not saying we should
- speakernot fight for peace. I want. I want peace. People in
- speakermy country, I know, we are going into a war
- speakersituation. We will die, as people are dying now in Namibia. As people are
- speakerdying in the Middle East and there is this nuclear thing. But the problem
- speakeris we, as a church, have developed the theory called just war theory.
- speakerWe in the church have developed a theory called theory
- speakerof tyrannicide when you can kill someone who oppresses. We
- speakerhave gone on. And, we have blessed wars ever since we have left
- speakerthe gospel on this issue. We have
- speakermixed our faith in Jesus Christ and our obedience to God with
- speakersome kind of patriotism.
- speakerAbby, I'm going to ask yourself why in your church is the American flag is in one corner in the church?
- speakerThe church flag is in the other. What's it doing there? It has no business there as far as I'm concerned.
- speakerBut it's the right thing to do.
- speakerIt's this patriotic thing that we have, and it's full of near religiosity
- speakerthat has got nothing to do with our being used to the Gospel. And now that we have manuevered
- speakerourselves into this corner. We see what violence is doing to our world. Now
- speakerwe don't know what to do about it. So I think not only should we
- speakerbe very involved in the peace making issue, we should also
- speakerask ourselves, How do we rectify
- speakerthis past that we have got all of the entanglement of theological issues
- speakerthat we don't know what to do? There are some other things I want to say, but I think I'd better keep quiet.
- speakerkeep going.
- speakerOK. So from our audience. You had your hand up.
- speakerI have several thoughts that are on my mind. First of all I think what Kent says is very true that all of
- speakerthese issues come grow out of what we see the church
- speakerto be. And, if we dealt with what,what it means to be the church, then these other issues would take their proper
- speakerperspective. I'd like to back up and say you asked
- speakerif we agreed with the church policies. And my understanding is that when the General
- speakerAssembly speaks a policy, they are not
- speakerspeaking for us, they are speaking for themselves. That's up to us and a local congregation
- speakerthen to discuss them and deal with them. A lot of people get mad. They say the General
- speakerAssembly has no right to think that for us. They don't. and and I. But,
- speakerI think, a lot of people don't understand that. And some of the feeling bad feelings
- speakeragainst the larger church is because they don't understand who's speaking for
- speakerwhom. But I have one more thing.
- speakerI'm very frustrated with all of these issues because I come from a
- speakerlarge suburban affluent church in Pittsburgh.
- speakerWe. There's resistance. They don't want to deal with any of these issues. Because, you know, they want to be more
- speakerspiritual, or you make people mad. The women
- speakerwant to deal with peace making. The pastor says, Oh, there are only a couple people who want to deal with that.
- speakerThere was another problem, oh the hunger problem. I suggested that our circle, which I'm a
- speakercircle leader. When we were hosts for the luncheon in May that it we have a sacrificial
- speakermeal, because the hunger fund is ongoing. We're always asking for hunger hunger
- speakerfunds. The need, the unemployment in Pittsburgh is growing and growing. We need to be aware of this.
- speakerI thought one small thing to do would be to have a sacrificial meal. We don't need all this
- speakerfood when we gather for a church meeting. And, we could have.
- speakerI didn't suggest we go about anything. But we could have something very simple and give to pay the same money.
- speakerNo way! You know would they buy into that. We can't
- speakerhave a sacrifical meal. No one will come.
- speakerYou know, this isn't the time. Another time might be
- speakerOK but not this time. And it's that kind of resistance of, you know, why not have a
- speakernice club in a church and do nice things and not do things that are going to keep people away from
- speakerthe church in our quote nice fellowship.
- speakerI'm from a church in an isolated area of Arkansas. And, I can agree
- speakerwith everything she said. And, I wonder is it just
- speakerthe large churches in Pittsburgh, medium-size churches in little country
- speakertowns in Arkansas or is it churchwide?
- speakerOK. Another hand. Get your hand up,
- speakerI'm also from the Pittsburgh area. And, there are some
- speakerpositives and negatives during. I'm a
- speakerseminarian. And, during the course of my seminary studies, I've been preaching
- speakerwhere the preaching association. So, I've had a chance to travel to a
- speakergreat many churches, some in the suburbs,
- speakeraffluent white churches, some in the rural areas, very
- speakersmall congregations, farming people.
- speakerThe whole problem is. I'm sorry I can't remember the first gentleman's name.
- speakerKent? is that there are different concepts
- speakerof the nature of Jesus Christ does seem to be at the bottom of it.
- speakerIf we perceive God. If we
- speakerperceive God as a provider primarily,
- speakerthen we have one way of looking at things. If we perceive God
- speakeras a great warrior of the earth, then we are militarists in our
- speakerminds and hearts. And, a lot of this goes right back to the same
- speakerthing. At the root of the evil are two-pronged problem and that
- speakeris racism and sexism. And, a lot of times we don't want
- speakerto call it that. We don't want to deal with that evil
- speakeras being at the root of most of our problems.
- speakerHow many of you agree that it is at the root of most problems? We've heard a lot of basis for problems or bases for
- speakerproblems. Yes Ma'am? No, I was thinking.
- speakerOh, you agree. OK.
- speakerSome of these issues it seems that we've made some progress.
- speakerI think about the million or a half a million plus people who came
- speakerto New York City in support of the peace
- speakerissue. And I read a little blurb on the bulletin board over
- speakerin the University Church yesterday that said the Secretary
- speakerGeneral made the statement that at the disarmament conference, practically nothing was
- speakeraccomplished. And, he was concerned about the fact that there was such a
- speakergreat disparity between what the people of the world want and
- speakerneed and what their governments are willing to do. And, I
- speakerwonder, we, as U.P.W. women, have been on this peace issue for a number of years. The
- speakerchurch has picked it up.
- speakerIt's a grassroots swelling across the country, but the government isn't
- speakerlistening.
- speakerWhat do we do next?
- speakerI guess we have to become more political. We have to seek out people who express
- speakerour point of view. And, say these are the people that we want to elect. Unless you have
- speakera better option.
- speakerDoes anybody have a better option?
- speakerWell. Trying to elect. I don't know what any other options are. And, I think, what we need to
- speakerdo is we need to get together as concerned Christian people. And, we need some
- speakerpeople who will take the leadership to do that to say OK this is what we can do. Let us
- speakerband together and get with people who have similar feelings to ours
- speakerand elect them. And that takes that takes
- speakercourage. It takes a risk on one's part. And, I think
- speakersometimes we get to that point we're not willing to risk. We're, we're happy to talk about
- speakerthese issues, and we clap and say "Hurray!" Yes, we must be concerned. But, when it comes to
- speakerimplementing an action. we're falling down. And, I think, we need some kind of
- speakerleadership to gather us together and say we have to do
- speakerspecific kinds of things. We have to move.
- speakerAnd let's get about moving.
- speakerOK You also need education and information. I mean, a lot of people are incredibly
- speakerignorant about a lot of subjects.
- speakerI'm from Columbus Ohio, And, I'd like to know how many people have written to their congresspeople and
- speakerrepresentatives in the last six months?
- speakerOK. That's good to see. I attended a conference this spring where they told us that the flood of
- speakerletters that was causing so much devastation to children and families
- speakerbills and legislation was the figure. It was devastating
- speakerto me.
- speakerFifteen thousand letters. Now that's not that many letters to make them much of a
- speakerdifference. and I know personally touched me and got my pen out. And, I encourage
- speakereach of you to do that because that and the pocketbook is the only way that we're ever going to make those
- speakerpeople feel the way we believe. Getting together and discussing it is not enough.
- speakerThere's another hand up over there, if you can get her. I just wondered
- speakerif we'd ever tried prayer?
- speakerYes. Yes, I was going to say all the time.
- speakerLet me suggest a response to that. I wanted say it
- speakergraciously.
- speakerThe church that I grew up in prayed all the time. And, the world continued to go to hell.
- speakerAnd, I can say that with conviction because I still
- speakerbelieve in prayer. I shared with other members of the panel that
- speakerit was about seven years ago that I became convinced that Christians need to
- speakerchange their lifestyle. It's been hard to do that.
- speakerThen I saw a bumper sticker that said, "Why pray for peace and pay for war?"
- speakerMy wife and I talked about the
- speakerimplications of our April fifteenth decision every year, in which we pledge our
- speakerallegiance to the state. I quit saying the Pledge of Allegiance ten years ago.
- speakerI stand respectfully, but I don't pledge allegiance to a flag because my allegiance is to
- speakerthe Jesus Christ. So I quit paying my taxes five years ago on the portion of my
- speakermoney that goes to fuel the war machine. And, it's a very popular thing in some
- speakerradical leftist circles to do, but it's not very popular in the Presbyterian Church among ministers.
- speakerAnd just Wednesday, I was audited finally for my nineteen eighty tax return.
- speakerThe next step is tax court and then the next step is I don't know,
- speakerbut I think, you know, if you really wanted to make a difference in small communities of Christians
- speakeraround the country, it wouldn't take more than ten thousand Presbyterian families not to pay their war
- speakertaxes. And, the government would have to come to a grinding halt.
- speakerThe Mennonites are doing it. The Quakers are doing it.
- speakerPeople of faith in the Presbyterian Church can doing it. And that is not very popular. My ministry in
- speakermy last parish ended because of this kind of political activism on my part. So
- speakerthere are some small prices that some people pay. And, I have paid nothing with my life like
- speakerChristians around the world are doing. And, I don't mean to put myself in that category.
- speakerI don't boast about that. I am saying that there is an alternative to simply voicing paper
- speakertigers like our church has done for the past ten years. And actually physically changing the course
- speakerof the government. And I, that is a realistic alternative.
- speakerHow do you feel that you have to go outside the church in order to express your views or take any kind of
- speakeraction? That you don't have that channel through the church?
- speakerDo you have to go outside the church? In respect to going outside of the church
- speakerto making comments about your views, I feel this is
- speakervery true. It may not be necessary if, within our churches, we had responsible
- speakersessions that would back the people and help them in following through on
- speakerthings. Well, you could take a stronger stand. One other
- speakerpoint I wanted to make was that prayng about these issues that
- speakerwe're concerned with is fine, ut
- speakerI cannot down government officials quite as much as maybe
- speakersome others do because I am scared to death in seeing them deal
- speakerwith countries that do not respond to Christian love
- speakerand regardless of how we may try to cut down on
- speakerthe number of nuclear weapons that we produce, I feel
- speakervery sure that they never will and I don't I don't
- speakernecessarily feel safe by us backing down. You know, not being
- speakerable to be in a position to defend ourselves. I,
- speakerI am not for war any more than anyone else, but it just scares me to death to
- speakerto see what we might have to face.