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Military chaplains, July 16, 1972.
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- speakerThe
- speakermatter we probed today is military chaplains. Our first guest is
- speakerRear Admiral Richard G Hutcheson, Jr., [Hutcheson, Richard Gordon, Jr.] chaplain Corps,
- speakerUnited States Navy and fleet chaplain of the U.S. Atlantic Fleet, and
- speakerformer director of the chaplains Corps planning group of the Navy. Chaplain Hutcheson, do
- speakerwe have enough chaplains in the military now? And,
- speakerparticularly I raised this question because, as you well know, there's certain criticism
- speakercurrently of the military.
- speakerHow is the score look? We're not having any difficulty getting
- speakerchaplains. Dr. Dixon. As a matter of fact we're still getting a
- speakersufficiently large number of applications that we can be pretty selective. Last year the
- speakerNavy accepted I think about 60 percent of the people who applied for
- speakerchaplaincy appointments. And this was the people who are fully qualified who had already
- speakerbeen pre-selected by their churches. So I think you can say this means
- speakerthat the opposition, at least to ministry in the military, is
- speakerconfined to a small segment of the churches. And, I think it also
- speakermeans that we're getting some fine chaplains. I'm sure you are. Thank you, Chaplain Hutcheson, very
- speakermuch. Next guest.
- speakerChaplain Colonel Simon H. Scott Jr., United States
- speakerAir Force, and who is wing chaplain at the Bolling Air Force Base.
- speakerChaplain Scott. You know we have the American principle of separation of church and
- speakerstate. Is there a contradiction or a conflict from your standpoint as a
- speakermilitary chaplain in you are serving the military? Well,Dr.
- speakerDixon, I do not think so. I felt that the founding
- speakerfathers did not intend to have this applied to the military chaplaincy. They were concerned
- speakerabout an established church and the state, that would receive the
- speakersupport of the state. So I think that if we interpret the Constitution literally then
- speakerthis would be true. But I think that the spirit of the Constitution certainly permits a military chaplaincy.
- speakerSo for me it's not. There is no problem. No problem of conscience, not at all.
- speakerThank you Chaplain very much. Our next guest is the Reverend Dr. A. Ray
- speakerApplequist, who is the executive secretary of the general
- speakercommission on chaplains. Also he's editor of the Chaplain,
- speakerwhich is a professional journal for all faiths. And, he himself is a former
- speakerArmy chaplain. Dr. Appelquist. How does a chaplain
- speakerspeak and act if he's moved to when he's in the military and serving as a
- speakerchaplain if he feels there are injustices in the military establishment?
- speakerWhat can he do? He has a
- speakerprivileged position as a staff member, the commander's staff
- speakermember, charged with religious and morale factors. And,
- speakerhe can point out to the commander or to a suitable other staff
- speakermembers appropriate other staff members.
- speakerDiscrepancies, situations that he feels are injust or improper or
- speakerunwise, and recommend courses of action various remedies.
- speakerHe would do this, I would take it, discreetly, rather than getting up on his hind legs and trying to preach a
- speakersermon about it? Right. Normally
- speakeras a member of the team. This would be his responsibility
- speakerto respond to problems of any kind.
- speakerThank you, doctor, very much. What makes a gentleman? All of you. You've had wide
- speakerexperience and you've obviously been very successful in your field as
- speakera military chaplain. What makes a good military chaplain? What are the
- speakerqualities you would be looking for in selecting men to go into the
- speakerchaplaincy?
- speakerWell I would say first I think that the minister needs to be a
- speakergood representative of his own church, his own religious denomination, because chaplains in
- speakerthe armed forces are basically clergymen for religious ministry.
- speakerBut I would hasten to add also that I think it's awfully important that he he be a person who is
- speakerconcerned about people. There's a very great need for clergymen
- speakerwho express this kind of concern.
- speakerBut I agree with that whole heartedly. And I think that the strength of our chaplains,
- speakerthe strength of a chaplain, depends upon his ability to relate to people. Military people are not
- speakerattached to chapels, anything of this type, but they attached to persons. And, the chaplain
- speakerthat can relate
- speakeris the chaplain that is effective in the military situation. He is a real human being. A real human being, sensitive, empathetic.
- speakerThat's right. Same with counseling if you have a feel and a sensitivity to what a
- speakerperson is trying to say to you. Then they'll respond.
- speakerSpeaking of counseling, Chaplain Scott, each of you, what would you
- speakersay are the main duties of a chaplain? How does he spend his time? What's he involved in?
- speakerWell he's involved in quite a bit of counseling. I think that if the one area would
- speakerbe set aside that would require most of the chaplain's time. It would be the
- speakerarea of counseling. We counsel people on administrative matters, morale matters, and
- speakeralso family matters. These are the areas that consume the greater amount of the
- speakerchaplain's time. In addition to that he has his pastoral duties.
- speakerNot all of his counseling would take place in an office. A lot of this would
- speakerbe right where the people work.
- speakerAnd we're doing a lot of specialized training of chaplains for counseling too.
- speakerAnd it's quite an important part of it. It's very important I think what Ray just mentioned too that the
- speakermilitary chaplains have found out that you have to go where the people are. Sure it's a time for the
- speakerchaplain to sit in the office and have people come in with their problems. This time is
- speakergone. Whenever a chaplain is where people are playing working or carrying
- speakerout their responsibilities then they can pick up many more counseling sessions and
- speakercarry on informal counselling sessions also.
- speakerYou know I would think that the chaplain would be more closely involved with the total life
- speakerof the military community than might say be the case with the parish minister
- speakerin a local congregation. Is this true or not?
- speakerVery definitely. I think that the this is one of the joys of the chaplains.
- speakerI remember back in thelogical school they talked about the minister's involvement in the communities.
- speakerThe chaplaincy actually promotes this and also assist this in a way
- speakerthat I think that we in communities would really be very very proud of the chaplains that. The chapalin is about the only
- speakerminister that habitually sees his parishioners in their skivie shirt you know. He lives in the
- speakersame environment 24 hours a day. He sees them in a gymnasium. He sees them on the
- speakerjob. He sees them at social functions. He's involved on the commander's staff
- speakerand involves himself in all decision making activities. And so, he's really a part of the community
- speakerand can really be a tremendous influence in the community.
- speakerGentlemen, what do you think about? I've read this. It's suggested that we get
- speakeraway from having the chaplains be under the military. What would you think of
- speakera civilian chaplaincy? In other words the denominations would pay the salary of the
- speakerchaplains. Would this work?
- speakerOr not? I think it depends on what you're looking for in the
- speakerway of a chaplaincy. There are certainly certain functions that could be done
- speakerjust as easily by civilians as by military chaplain, like sacramental administrations and
- speakerconducting service, and this sort of thing. But. I think there's one
- speakerarea. A very large area of the chaplain's ministry that would be missed, and that's the
- speakersame kind of thing Si was talking about a minute ago. You know, this total involvement in the life
- speakerof the military society. A civilian serving as
- speakerchaplain to military people couldn't help being an outsider because
- speakerit's a very closely knit kind of community. And I think, that it would be very difficult to
- speakerget this dimension of ministry into it. I agree wholeheartedly on that.The civilian would be under a
- speakergreat
- speakerhandicap. There are many many functions in the military that would not even be open to
- speakercivilians. There are security problems. There are problems of
- speakertrying to share classified information that the civilian preson wouldn't have access too. And
- speakerthis would be a great deal of functions that he would not even be involved in.
- speakerSo his position very very limited. And I think that Ray here has done quite a
- speakerbit of study through his commission on this particular field. And I'm sure, he may
- speakerhave some areas that he can share on this.
- speakerWell there's so many feasibility problems in trying to mount a
- speakercivilianized chaplaincy. I'm sympathetic to those from the outside
- speakerwho look at the chaplaincy and make suggestions to
- speakerdemilitarize the chaplaincy to some extent. I'm sympathetic to that. But I think to
- speakercivilianize the chaplaincy is to pose some staggering problems
- speakerin mounting an acceptable alternative model. The General Commission
- speakerdid a study on this on this, didn't you, Ray? right. Financially we found it was just simply
- speakerway beyond the resources of the churches. Even on a phase out and phase in
- speakerbasis it would be impractical.
- speakerWe would. We would be opting for a much less effective, much less
- speakercomprehensive type of ministry, out of state out of study and I think I think the
- speakerchurches ought to study anything that might make for a more effective ministry, but
- speakerthey need to look for data as to what really does make for the most effective ministry.
- speakerI also feel that there's a problem of identification. The military chaplain
- speakercan identify with the men. A civilian chap would find
- speakerdifficulty trying to identify. And, I think that anyone who deals with
- speakerpeople today realizes that identification with people is very important. Like
- speakersomeone mentioned once before that that the college pastors, they have beards and long hair,
- speakerand they're trying to identify with the college students. They feel that they can minister to them better.
- speakerSo, I think that the uniform, this being being a part of the structure of the military,
- speakerenhances the chaplain rather than retards his ability to minister.
- speakerDo you ever find, Colonel, and you. I know you prefer to be called chaplain or that's
- speakerthe custom. Right. But you do have the rank of colonel and you suit you sir of
- speakera rear admiral.
- speakerDo you ever find that your military rank is a hindrance in talking to some
- speakerkid who comes from the farm out in Iowa and may be overly impressed with
- speakerthis and has a heart ache a problem he needs to solve. Does your rank stand in the
- speakerway of this communication? Well
- speakerI personally don't don't feel so. I think that if if you think so
- speakerin your mind, I think it probably will. However I think that initially a person
- speakermay be concerned about rank because they mostly taught this to
- speakerrespect rank and when they walk in the presence of a colonel, they may think that they walk in the
- speakerpresence with a great awe and bewilderment . However I think that it is the
- speakerchaplain's personality. If you are a warm. A person who loves
- speakerpeople. This will come out naturally. And I think that the charisma of
- speakerthe chaplain and this type thing. And, that is why I first of all prefer to be called chaplain because when I think
- speakerwhen someone calls me chaplain, then they know who I am
- speakerand what I want to be. And give all of us.
- speakerThis is true in all the services. We are called chaplain, rather than by our rank. And, I prefer that
- speakerbecause I think that this is my function. And, if people call us chaplain, then this really makes me feel great.
- speakerSo I think that when they call you Chaplain they think of you as chaplain because
- speakerthat's when you are a little suspicious if they call you Colonel and they're telling you something.
- speakerRank can be a barrier.
- speakerThe burden is on the chaplain to make sure that it's not a barrier.
- speakerAnd I think you have to look too at the other side of it. You have to weigh this barrier, this possible
- speakerbarrier, against the advantages that come from wearing the
- speakeruniform, from being fully a part of the same community that the individual
- speakerman is it is a part of. You know it would be.
- speakerI could go into a neutral place, say like an airport waiting room, for instance. And,
- speakerit would be far easier for me in spite of my rank. Because I wear the same
- speakeruniform, it would be far easier for me to get into a conversation with a Navy man there about
- speakermatters of common interest than it would be for a man in a clerical collar for instance because we live in the same
- speakerworld. And, we're familiar with the same problems. And, this is the other side of the rank. Of course it would
- speakerbe. What would you engage in in selecting
- speakerchaplains and in training chaplains? Are
- speakerthere courses, are there schools, a clergyman would have to take if he wants to become a
- speakermilitary chaplain?
- speakerRay, can talk on the selection part of the general commission.
- speakerYeah very much calling this. A long time ago we agreed with the three services that
- speakerit is necessary and proper that all chaplain
- speakercandidates have four years of college and three years of seminary or its equivalent in some
- speakerother graduate level study. And then the denominations
- speakerhave the privilege of requiring additional pastoral experience.
- speakerThis is an option and it varies. The option varies from one denomination
- speakerto the next. But once they get in the
- speakermilitary services, then there are chaplains schools in each service.
- speakerOne at Newport. And, not just when they first come in. Either we have continuing education
- speakerprovisions through or You're required to take specialized courses?
- speakerYes. And others are not requirements but are options.
- speakerWe've just been doing a joint study of the three services of chaplaincy, continuing education. Correct.
- speakerAnd I take it the more courses you take that you get more brownie points for doing it.
- speakerWell another way to look at it is maybe you become a more effective minister. OK I
- speakermight become better qualified to perform your ministr. OK.
- speakerWhat would you say to the criticism. I question the
- speakermilitary chaplaincy because the guys who go in there are paid by the
- speakerarmy, and they have to be subservient to the military
- speakercommanding officers. And I'm inclined to think they just become kind of the
- speakermilitary morale officers for the Army.
- speakerWell I really don't think that there is a possibility this type of thing happening. But
- speakeragain. Let me go back to saying that the it depends on the individual.
- speakerThere are civilian ministers that are muzzled far more than chaplains are. There civilian
- speakerministers that are afraid to speak up on controversial issues.
- speakerEven more than chaplains so to speak. Only I think that there is always that
- speakerfeeling that the chaplaincy is always taken apart and set aside
- speakeras being the whipping boys, so to speak. And it's the one that everyone's pointing toward But
- speakerthere are many other paid ministries like prison chaplains, chaplains in mental
- speakerhospitals, veterans administration chaplains right. There's always the military chaplain that they're always
- speakerpointing the finger.
- speakerYeah. But I think it really is a special problem on the military side because you know the
- speakerauthority structures are so visible. And.
- speakerChaplains really have to come to grips with it. Yeah there are tensions in the area. But one thing
- speakeryou know that enters into this, that I think is important to remember, that military
- speakercommanders by and large I think want their chaplains to be real clergymen,
- speakerwho speak for the church and not for the military. I don't think most military
- speakercommanders are really looking for morale officers.
- speakerI think they want ministers and they want pastors.
- speakerIf this were not true we could not as churchmen support the present chaplaincy
- speakersystem. We would have to seek radical change. It's a very
- speakerhuman institution, like all human arrangements, and it's subject to improvement. It's
- speakerchanged a great deal in its long history. And, it will change some more. But, we're not
- speakerprepared to throw out this present system because it's
- speakerreasonably effective. And, the churches have been taking a very carefuly look at it too.
- speakerVery much so, very much so.
- speakerYou used the word I didn't. You use the word you're not muzzled, but using that
- speakerword. Have there ever been instances where you felt kind of in a straight
- speakerjacket because of your military position and that you
- speakerfound a dichotomy or a conflict more accurately with what may be your
- speakerconscience on matters? Were
- speakeryou ever muzzled? Well
- speakerI personally cannot think of any instance at the moment where I felt that I
- speakerwas prevented from either saying or doing something I wanted to do. Now, of course,
- speakersome other chaplains might have different experiences. But this is only my personal experience.
- speakerAnd I think that on the whole, this would probably be in a very rare situation. Now, there may be times when
- speakerthey may be conflicts that will come up.
- speakerI think it depends on the chaplain's rapport with the commander. His approach to the problem.
- speakerAnd then a lot of factors using discretion and the way he brings it up.
- speakerAnd then of course if he's got good rapport with the commander, the commander respects him. There are many times this a
- speakerjob and I don't agree with you but I respect your opinion. and I think that this is the type of respect that
- speakera chaplain has, that this type tension would not really be a real problem
- speakerat least I haven't found that my career.
- speakerThe tension is always there. I think that you can resolve
- speakerthe problems that do arise.
- speakerBut I would say it's certainly a ministry that's always in a
- speakercertain amount of tension of this kind.
- speakerThere are 3000 chaplains on active duty. In all candor you have to say
- speakerthat there are problem situations. It's the law of averages works this way in
- speakermy agency and the denominational chaplain agencies have staff people who
- speakeraddress themselves on behalf of the churches to these problem areas and problem cases.
- speakerBut I would have to subscribe to what both Si and Dick say here, that it's
- speakerbasically sound. And, it is working. It's effective it a good chaplain,
- speakera chaplain who works at it, can be heard and he can be heard constructively.
- speakerAnd changes are made in the command when they're necessary.
- speakerAnd his commanders want him to be heard in most instances. Would a man who has a
- speakerconviction on pacifism let's say he's a pacifist committed committed one.
- speakerCan he be a chaplain? Should he be a chaplain?
- speakerWhat's your judgment. Yes. Well yes in a sense. I
- speakerknow chaplains who consider themselves pacifists because
- speakerof what we're here for is to be a clergyman is religious ministry
- speakernot basically military officers so much as as clergymen. I
- speakerthink, in all honesty though, you have to say that there's a certain amount of self selectivity
- speakerinvolved in it because a pacifist clergyman
- speakerwho felt that he could not comfortably serve in the armed forces is not going to apply. We're
- speakerall volunteers. Right. And so while theoretically it's certainly true and in some
- speakerinstances of certain kind of pacifism Yes.
- speakerWell I think that it could be a problem. Depends on what type of pacifist
- speakerthat you're concerned about an in-active pacifist who just on the
- speakermatter of conviction feels that he can assist in any way you can but not become a
- speakerpart of the operation. Yes this person can be part of the operation. but some
- speakerpacifists are active and they feel that their particular responsibilities would be
- speakerto change the whole thinking in the system. Now, a person with this viewpoint, I think,
- speakerwould find that have a difficulty dealing with the military system because there will be people who'll
- speakerbe repelled by this type of activity. And so I think that maybe there are medics that are
- speakerserving in the military who are pacifist. And, they serve well, and they are very very good people. Depends on what you
- speakermean by pacifism right. Right. But if an active pascifist who feels that he must reform the
- speakermilitary and change it and change thinking. And this type person, I think, would
- speakerhave problems and I think if he were a chaplain he would but I think that the responsibility of
- speakerchaplain can be performed because he's a pastor, not a man who is
- speakerresponsible for bearing arms. He couldn't be effective in an adversary role.
- speakerI wouldn't think so. This would be offensive to the people to whom he is trying to minister And, they
- speakerwould feel that he's taking advantage of his inhouse positions to disrupt and
- speakerconfront and to be an adversary.
- speakerThose problems, that kind of dialogue and that kind of confrontation,
- speakeris properly taking place I think outside the military. And,
- speakerthe military is subservient in our system to
- speakercivilian political leadership. And, the influence of the
- speakerchurches I think needs to be brought to bear on all questions that the churches feel are
- speakeryou know in their area of responsibility and witness.
- speakerBut you know I think it's really important to recognize that chaplains are
- speakernot simply preaching a military gospel of any kind. I've certainly preached
- speakersermons on the text Thou shalt not kill and I've preached him in combat type
- speakersituations with my commanding officer present. And I think most chaplains have.
- speakerI don't consider myself a pacifist certainly but I do consider that it's important that
- speakerthe Gospel be presented. If you will heard some of the prayers in the services over in Viet Nam where
- speakerthere's tremendous confession. Know that and
- speakerGod we're stuck in this situation. It's a wretched miserable war.
- speakerGod forgive us for anything we do that is displeasing in thy sight. Make
- speakersomething redemptive out of this horrible this this tremendous
- speakersituation, this great sacrifice. I think this is part of
- speakerthe the historical agony that not only America today
- speakerbut all nations have had over the problem of war.
- speakerYou know you mentioned, Chaplain Hutcheson, the text "Thou shalt
- speakernot kill." How does a chaplain reconcile his position as a
- speakerclergyman as committed to the total total Judeo
- speakerChristian tradrition and that text "Thou shalt not kill"?
- speakerI'm not sure we ever completely reconcile it. I'm not sure the church itself ever completely
- speakerreconciles the on the on the one hand the
- speakercommandment "Thou shalt not kill," and on the other hand, the reality of a real world
- speakerin which armed forces have thus far always been necessary.
- speakerAnd I think that we remain aware of the sinfulness of
- speakerkilling. At the same time, we are aware of the fact that
- speakerthere may be a greater sin in any particular instance.
- speakerAnd that we live with it, rather than reconcile it. And, I think this is true of the church in
- speakergeneral not just the chaplaincy.
- speakerWell I think it also is true of the whole society. The Supreme Court is now
- speakerabout to consider this business of capital punishment. We're in a sense, as
- speakera society is asking the same question. They are wrestling with the same issue. Thou shall not kill.
- speakerAnd I think that the chaplains are more closely related to it.
- speakerBut I feel that it's one of those things that our whole society has something to say also, rather
- speakerthan just the individual chaplains. And I think that it's not an easy thing. And, it's not
- speakersomething which we take lightly. And I think that we do not
- speakerrun away from it. As Dick said, that we faced the real ugly realities of it. But then I felt
- speakerthat in a society in which we live, there are times when this
- speakermay be seen to be necessary. Like someone said that, I think it was Albert Camus, who
- speakersaid that wars are sometimes necessary, but it's very difficult to justify them. I
- speakerthink that this is a play of words again. But on the other hand, I think that it says something. The fact that it
- speakersometimes is necessary to do things that we know that we cannot necessarily condone.
- speakerAnd I think that this is something which is facing the realities rather than just hiding from the basic
- speakerissues. The churches have been very much concerned all
- speakerduring the agony of the Vietnam War that the chaplains not become politicized.
- speakerWe see them in a servant role. The churches do not send chaplains into the
- speakermilitary as their representatives because
- speakerthey are supporting national policy in any area of the world or
- speakerthat they are militarists. Chaplains obviously have not been
- speakerdisfranchised. They can have their own opinions about these things, but they're not
- speakerfreelance as they enter the military. They come only as representatives of
- speakerchurches. Church bodies of America on a quota basis. And, the churches
- speakerare very much concerned that the chaplains not to
- speakerparticipate, you know, in the politicizing of American life on national goals.
- speakerBut I don't think. In keeping with what Ray just said one important thing I think
- speakerthat the public may not realize is that the chaplains are
- speakerstill directly under the control of their denominations. All denominations
- speakerrequire us to send in reports on what we are doing.
- speakerThey require us to attend religious retreats to make sure that we are spiritually
- speakeruplifted and the task we have to do. So, they keep definitely control of us. And so,
- speakerwe are not only under the military but also definitely under the church and also with authority
- speakerthat the church has as much authority over us as the military does.
- speakerDoes that pose a problem? I wonder when you have the joint bosses?
- speakerI think there are tensions. There are tensions that this naturally would bring up naturally.
- speakerBut there again I think that they are not the insurmountable tensions. Are there any of us that
- speakerdon't have more than one boss? I guess there are very few, come
- speakerto think of it, like the local pastor in the church. What what sensitive person can live
- speakerwithout tension these days? No. It's next to impossible, isn't it?
- speakerWell there are other aspects of this. I'd like to know just a word
- speakerabout the chaplaincy situation in other nations other countries. Do they follow pretty
- speakermuch the system we do? No
- speakermany are quite different. I just saw a group of chaplains who came
- speakerover for an air force conference from Europe just a few weeks ago.
- speakerChaplain Scott you must forgive me but our time is up. I thank you sir
- speakerso very much, you and Chaplain Hutcheson and Dr. Applequist for
- speakergiving us insights into the military chaplain.
- speakerThank you gentlemen very.
- speakerMuch.
- speakerThank. You.
